Driverless Tubes for London (3rd Bailout Deal EXPLAINED!)
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- Опубликовано: 2 июл 2024
- Welcome back All! Today is the day that Driverless Tubes are being looked at (again let me add) for London.
Stay tune to explain what the Government has done to TfL in their latest bailout!
0:00 Introduction
0:39 Bailout Overview
1:45 Latest Bailout
2:14 Driverless Trains
4:20 Other Parts of the Bailout
LINKS
Bailout #2
assets.publishing.service.gov...
Bailout #3
assets.publishing.service.gov...
Twitter: ashley_rabot
Be interesting to see how long it is before the train goes on strike.
i hope they do. I as a Londoner do not want to be on driverless trains ... esp with all the boom boom peop[le in this country
Maybe it won't if they pay it enough?
@@booth2710 That doesn’t make any sense.
Lol
@Aname A £50k for learning how to repair trains, specific stock, being on alert for 8 hours and not running any signals or speed restrictions, keeping the service running as smooth as possible for 8 hours. Also being responsible for 800+ passengers.
Why all this talk about driverless trains. people may be surprised to know that the Victoria Line opened as an ATO (automatic train operation) in 1969. The first ATO railway in the world. The person sitting in the cab does not drive the train but only does the station duty's i.e. door operation etc. In fact the drivers preferred to be called operators. As they rightly said they were no longer doing the driving. They only sat the operator in the cab at the front because passengers felt uncomfortable seeing the train arrive with nobody in the cab. At present Victoria, Northern, Central & Jubilee Lines are all ATO. The District, Metropolitan, Circle and Hammersmith And City are slowly going over to ATO at this very time. Thameslink has now got on board and are running trains on ATO through the central core. The first mainline railway to run ATO trains.
@@nononononoo689 Is it going to stop the train if there is an obstruction on the track or in the event of any other kind of emergency? No! Anyone with a brain SHOULD be scared at the prospect of being stuck deep underground on a strande train with no staff member around to help.
ATO IS THE FUTURE
I have never had a problem with driver less trains viz the DLR.
@@nononononoo689 A car is not a train. Every post you makes shows just how ignorant you are about the railway and how to operate it safely.
@@donaldboughton8686 the DLR was fined 7m after a number a trains went over the same body. ATO is fine, but we need a person to prevent tragedies
since when did funding a public service become a "bailout"?
developing properties? sounds like a conservative's dream
I think you will find that the rest of the country with poor public transport options dont want to "subsidise" London transport, it's a political hot potato, although London ultimately subsidises them I would rather London just retain its taxes to invest into a largely public-transport-wise public, but dont think thats on the cards any time soon. Tokyo and Hong Kong do well from getting long term investment into their well-run systems from rent from land development, ie houses, retail and offices above and around stations, win-win situation yet in London we get the ridiculous situation where local councillors veto or reduce large scale developments because of local home owners moaning that their house prices might drop due to their imagined fears of over-supply. Yeah brilliant joined-up-thinking that is the planning process, but sure blame "Conservatives".
Sadiq has not proved to be very wise or resourceful in terms of funding when he froze the fares all those years ago, nothing wrong with freezing fares but short term "efficiency" gains are not stable enough to plug funding holes plus the forgotten but just as important longer term projects have all just been kicked further down the decades (they were being postponed long before Covid). I literally couldnt believe he tried to gain political capital by pushing back on the congestion charge expansion insisted by the Government, that should have been expanded 15 years ago but Boris give it a wide margin during his wasted decade, he could have extracted a huge revenue stream from forcing Private Hire and delivery companies to pay for their boom in road use which has caused a pre-covid increase in car use after decades of decline. London also needs to have a visitor tax as they have a dis-proportionate impact on the transport system. Recent events with stagnated policies and inablity to find revenue streams has just shown Sadiq as more a show-boating type Mayor than pragmatic yet progressive Ken Livingston.
It's a "bailout" because the rest of the country has to cover the cost. The people actually using the service don't pay for it. According to the TFL figures, fares on Crossrail will cover about 10% of the interest costs on the loans. Taxes on the 60+ million people who will never get the chance to ride on it HAVE to cover the other 90%. Fair? And they are already demanding "Crossrail 2" !! Well, when they country has invested 20 billion on transport infrastructure in EACH of the other regions, we might consider it.
@@DaimlerSleeveValve You need to do a bit more research, half of Crossrails funding came from London business rates and local revenue e.g. TFL www.crossrail.co.uk/about-us/funding the cost-overruns are loans but printed by the Bank of England and will need to be paid back by TFL not the rest of the country. I dont know where you got your 10% figure from about the loan payback but the Government tends to invest only in schemes that have the biggest chance of good return on increasing economic growth on the short term just so they can say it is good value for the tax payer thats the whole reason everything takes so long to implement in this country! You cant moan about poor value for the tax payer and then on the other hand moan that all the checks and balances put in place to do that very thing end up weighted to the area that basically subsidies the entire country! More specficially it subsidies the Great British publics love affair with bankrupting suburban sprawl and fake rural lifestyles (you seem to like figures so go and look at the economics of suburban sprawl), hint no one outside of the densest part of cities pay the true cost of their lifestyle choice.
Now if the other regions even bothered to raise 50% of the costs from local revenue as requested by the DFT then yeah they might consider it... .but how many times do things like implementing a Congestion Charge got voted down by the "locals"?
There had to be a bailout because so few people used public transport because of COVID-19 pandemic and being told to self isolate, duh. Previously LT was making a profit.
Since TfL started going bankrupt as they are incapable of managing their own books.
There are different types of driverless levels, so it can be easy for people to imagine different scenarios.
GoA1 - ATP+Train driver
GoA2 - ATP+ATO+Train driver
GoA3 - Controlled by someone else, but with a train driver just in case
GoA4 - Fully automated, so no train driver in any capacity. Only control center.
It appears that the LU is aiming for GoA3, with attendants, not a fully automated GoA4 with no employee on board.
It is easier to have GoA4 if a line is completely new and modern, but not impossible in an older metro system (Line 1 in Paris comes to mind). However, almost all GoA4 lines with are built from the 1980s and onwards. And it really helps that Line 1 is isolated. Almost all new driverless lines are standalones. Some have branches here and there, but none have the interlining present in London (or New York where I'm from).
London might pull GoA3 with a couple of isolated lines, but when many lines have different rolling stock with different loading gauges (the deep-level Picadilly 1973 stock mixes with the sub-surface District and Metropolitan stock), it can become difficult real quickly.
I think Singapore's case study could work (tho they (LTA) did just decommissioned the very first rolling stock, with the next 2 series of rolling stocks to follow in terms of decommissioning it.) as it is currently, there's at least 5 different series of rolling stocks running at any one time with at least 2 of the series being the older models ( there are 3 recently recently commissioned series of trains, which all of which are practically the same except for one series (as of right now) which is not equipped for non-CBTC only movement aka fixed block signalling)
What they do is to keep the driver cab, but essentially made them a "doorman". only in a emergency they are back to being a train captain except only moving way slower...
Swap the district and Piccadilly lines around between Ealing Broadway and Uxbridge. Problem solved.
TfL has the Four Lines Modernisation plan, which introduces ATO technology and rolling block signalling to sub-surface lines.
It would make more sense to complete that work and then look at using that same technology on the deep level tube lines.
The point of this technology is not to replace drivers, but to make the trains get in and out of stations as efficiently as possible (so you can have more trains per hour on the same system).
You still need to have the driver there, to take charge of the vehicle in the event of an emergency.
Costs too much. They are very, very, very overpaid.
@@richardwills-woodward5340 you talking about the signalling right? Drivers are cheap compared to that, that’s why TfL always reject driverless trains, because drivers are cheaper. We need to stop wasting money, and false economies are the first place to start
@@captainhindsight8604 Signalling is expensive to implement, over 50 years it is much cheaper than overpaid drivers with many weeks holidays over normal and gold plated pension that are unaffordable. Employing a train supervisor is much cheaper. It is economics - money over time, not the immediate cost, nor the cost over 20 years, but 40,50,60 plus.
@@richardwills-woodward5340 Agree. It’s time to dispose of the luxuriously paid ‘drivers’ and replace them with much more purposeful attendants. Get that shocking wage bill down and invest the money where it should be - not wasted on these trumped-up dinosaurs.
@@richardwills-woodward5340 no it’s not. It’ll be life expired at 50 years, whilst those train attendants you speak of make almost train driver money and have the same pension scheme. Go look the DLR up, whose employees are NOT TfL staff but enjoy the same conditions as paid by a private company. Please go and research it, the more people who know what all this actually costs the quicker we get cheaper fares
It's hardly TFL's fault though - lockdowns mean virtually no travel which means no revenue...
oh? then how must wealthiness have arrived at sequestering central streets from less-monied? must you really be _that_ numb to Corporateria emerging outta that stretch of the Thames valley there?! oo la.........
@@trainrover That's a different argument though - one that I'd generally be of the same opinion on - I'm not for gentrification either. I'd blame the politicians and the planners for the housing issue.
any party fostering germfare _is_ at fault...corporateers don't - as GB'ers put it... - give a toss
one corporation - as GB'ers put it... - gov'ing yer subways & laneways...how manipulative, pray tell 🍸
@@RedKnight-fn6jr the advent of housing here lies with you, by the way
Wow fabulous video! Interesting! Love from U.K.
Very good video we be very interested in your follow ups . Brilliant video and presented very well 👍👍👍👍 thank you 🙏
Thank you for this, this is very interesting
Also, the DLR now operates the same way we do on LU on our automated lines. It’s no longer driverless with an unoccupied cab.
19 Sept 2021 .... Ashley my friend... you've gone MISSING with no videos for 3 months. Are you coming back soon ... please come back, your videos are awesome.
Nice Video!
Nice video 👍
I'm intrigued that Hammersmith has to stump up towards repairing Hammersmith Bridge; er, what about Barnes, for whom this bridge is of some significance too?
People of barnes are stuck up idiots they want us in Hammersmith to make it stronger so they can drive little seb or Olivier to private school in their range rovers
We have automated running on the Jubilee, Victoria, Central and Northern Lines, with the District, Met, H&C and Circle going completely ATO shortly, (at present they are only part ATO). The operator is there to look after the safety of the passengers, start nad if needed Emergency Stop the train and to make any adjustments to the train to get it moving if it fails to move( this happens quite often). This could be many things from opening air valves under seats to turning off safety features in the cab, which we are trained to do and drive the train manually in a certain way at a very reduced speed and with guidelines that must be followed to the rule book, or we can lose our jobs. Also, if there is an attack on the train we are in a position to use the train in a way to help the passengers affected as quickly as we can, call for police or ambulances. The worry is that a train stopped in a tunnel, could have a passenger (maybe on drugs or drunk) open an Emergency exit and get into the tunnel, with live track,. The cost of around 10 billion to make the tube ready for driverless trains is horrific..10 thousand million pounds...and you still need to pay for a "train captain"..does it make any sense.
Driverless trains are safer. Unlike manually driven trains they will never overrun stations or into blind tunnels.
There's going to be a labour shortage in coming years. Train driving is the perfect candidate for automation. Now is the time to get this done.
Presume HS2 will be driverless? 🤔
Brilliant response 👍👍👍👍✊🏻
@@allangibson2408 they do over run frequently. The central line as soon as it rains is notorious for it... at which point the operator manually drives it.
TfL now estimates the Bakerloo line trains will operate until the 2040s unless it gets significant investment. In its worst-case scenario (aka "managed decline"), documents reveal : "Bakerloo and Central line fleet replacement would be pushed back to the late 2030s /early 2040s, and Jubilee line replacement would not begin until the mid-2040s, at significant cost. This would make our fleets by far some of the oldest in the UK." If this option is pursued, this suggests TfL will run trains on the Bakerloo line until at least the age of 68 if the line stays open.
I'd rather see a driverless Government- Oh, we have already?
I was under the impression that the newest lines have trains equipped for driver less operation its just that it has never been turned on.
Nice...👍.
For one, there is no "bailout" for TfL. It's a critical transportation mode like roads and the skies are. Infrastructure is a cost center. Period. No matter the mode.
No one questions costs for roads -- no one "bails out" the M4. So when do the roads become "self-sufficient"?
I think it's about capacity, Khan wants buses and trains running around 24/7 while a more sensible and realistic approach would be to reduce the number of buses running around mostly empty during the day, same for the tube. Empty buses don't generate money and only add pollution and congestion to already congested roads.
@@JW20236 NYC runs 24/7 because the city does. Until London does, it’s a waste. If you reduce service to 2x or 3x trains and buses per hour overnight is fine as there are workers in the bar and restaurant trades which need transport late to get home.
@@lohphat Most night buses are 3bph max apart from busy routes at 4 to 6bph. Daytime services cutting back anymore reduces revenue just as much.
@@lohphat And during the day too in certain areas, after rush hour the only people getting on buses are old dears and tourists, I look at empty buses all day long, nearly every day.
@@JW20236 So 'old dears' and tourists are not welcome in London?
How do you create the lines animation?
After Effect and Premiere Pro!
It is possible to do driverless on most if not all tube lines- the complexity of the DLR proves that- and no doubt it would save a lot of money in the long term, but is it really the best way forward. Since leaving the EU, the government have advised to look at Asia, so I will look to Japan, where they have a few driverless systems, but by and large prefer non-automated systems, and even still use guards on the Tokyo Metro, because having people doing the jobs is simply better than trusting in computers.
The DLR really is not complex compared with the existing tube networks.
🚇 It was designed as a self-contained system for automatic operation, the Underground wasn't. That alone is huge.
🚇 The Underground network uses a range of different signalling and electronic systems behind the scenes. Some lines use more than one, particularly where they share tracks with other Underground, Overground or Womblingfree lines. This is a nightmare for ATO.
🚇 It is likely that any new plans for ATO will require platform-edge doors, but it often isn't possible to install them on curved platforms, and it often isn't possible to install them on lines used by different types of stock as the doors will be in different places. (Note that the control systems on the Jubilee line couldn't cope with having a combination of 6- and 7-car trains and so the entire line had to be suspended for 5 days when the trains were lengthened while the upgrades took place.
I'm not saying that ATO is a bad thing or that it shouldn't be the goal, but just pointing out some of the realities that mean it isn't anywhere near as simple to retrofit it to existing systems as it is to build it in from scratch.
The key word is “Review” and we all highly doubt it’ll be doable. For starters, who’s willing to fund the money for all the infrastructure upgrades needed to facilitate this “driverless” goal?
Victoria is basically (well was) driver less , Picc straightforward, but will need massive investment in Platform doors, so cash saving wont be immediate. Could be done on Bakerloo and Jubillee straightforwardly. Should have been done years ago.
@@highpath4776 There is so much more to it than platform edge doors. If you want to achieve GoA4 the entire network will need to be rebuilt, we don’t have the infrastructure for completely driverless trains. That’s why I believe the government are dreamers. Who’s gonna fund the money to rebuild the tube? Not to mention the mass disruption it will cause. The ATO lines now are mainly GoA2 but I do believe we’re aiming to go GoA3 at some stage. Time will tell.
@@NoddyMaccy The trick really is for the treasury to attempt to show they are not favouring London as such (though we know bits of London are areas of deprivation/ need leveling up for disabled access and so on), and to work on the difference of funding OF TfL (day to day running costs), and funding FOR TfL ( so more step free access is really for all residents and visitors to London, New Infrastructure for Build Back Better to new areas of opportunity within London, and new trains (hopefully ordered from manufacturies in Britain , for 'British Jobs in the North'). The Bus Fleet is generally not in need of full renewal, but again pacing it to better EURO or Electric standards should be spinnable.
@@highpath4776 Disabled access improvements are going ahead as it’s law. It isn’t law to have completely driverless or staffless trains. The problem with London Underground is it’s so old, it wasn’t build for the requirements of completely driverless trains. Take the DLR for example, they used to have “Train Captains” present on the train at all times in case of an emergency. Look at how that turned out, now the DLR operates the same way we do. London Underground won’t be able to operate the same way the DLR used to because it wasn’t built for it. What I am saying is we’re talking a complete rebuild of lines to facilitate GoA4. As for buses, that’s the biggest money burner in TfL, next to the massively overrun and massively over budget Elizabeth Line.
@@NoddyMaccy Victoria and Piccadilly are basically flicking a switch. Sub surface lines should be straightforward as well
The Prime Minister went on TV in March last year and told us all to stay at home, then a couple of months later he was surprised that TfL was short of money. Someone didn't do their homework. It is astounding that we have such geniuses running the country.
The only way to get driverless trains is to completely redesign a whole line - the cost is huge. New rolling stock, new signalling, platform edge doors - hundreds of millions to convert and even after that you still need staff to monitor and maintain them not to mention they still want a member of staff on board. The DLR passenger agent gets in the region of 45k and a current tube operator 55k. How much £££ is really being saved ?
None, here is a man who did is research!
Hi Ashley. Do you know how the work is going on at Euston… there doesn’t seem to be much online anymore, lol
When will the new driverless trains come
Well it might be cool because there might be a pair of DLR seats at the front for drivers to sit if necessary
There’s nothing to see anyway it’s all tunnel. Why not just have a tv in each carriage showing the front view - then you wouldn’t have the ridiculous rush for front seats. Better still stream it via wifi.
@@daveb0789 Spoiler alerte : There's no real rush to the front of the trains, at least not in Paris where 5 lines are already driverless. People usually have better things to do than rush to the front. Kids, however, love it when they get to "drive" the train, especially as lines 1 and 14 have control panel-looking stickers at the front
@@HliarusProd I think the reason there is no rush is because there was always a window where you could watch the front in all metro trains anyway. I thought only 3 metro lines were driverless 1,4 and 14 ?
@@daveb0789 Not entirely, large sections of the Piccadilly line are above ground, so it's not like you would only see tunnels
RIP Ashley Rabot
RMT ARE THERE FOR THE PUBLIC AS WELL
RMT 🤣 that's a cult. It only you knew.
Interesting - but what are you looking at? It isn't the camera lens!
I used to work in a train maintenance depot in North London. So much cash wasted.
Not a tfl employee but they do deserve recognition for working in a public facing role during a pandemic. Literally risking their lives.
Hi Ashley
what's the point of a driverless train if there is a staff onboard? I live in Paris and from what I can tell the trains on the line 1 and 14 both run fully automatically without drivers, so in my mind staffing a driverless train seems like a waste of money.
Did you know, that already, the Victoria, jubilee and portion of northern are already on ATO, automatic train operation, with the driver just operating the doors, and telling the system train is ready to start. So these lines are already like driverless trains !!
that ferry at hammersmith bridge never happened
hammersmith bridge ain't never gonna open :(
Why would the tube drive? The subway tunnel dosn't need to move??? The train is the thing that would need to drive or be driverless.
Will driverless trains be fitted with a device that will detect any obtruction on the track and automatically stop the train?
Blimey, that sounds like the most basic of challenges the tech guys would have to address. If that were a hurdle in the way of driverless trains it would be about 6 inches high.
DLR trains do.
@@donaldboughton8686 no they don’t www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/dlr-fined-ps450-000-for-failing-to-stop-train-that-killed-man-6469022.html
This was not the first occurrence and the ORR has ruled the attendant must now sit at the front of the train outside of daylight hours. A change in the law making driverless trains less likely than in the 1980s
@@captainhindsight8604 That's because the control room weren't doing their job right.
Sadly a lot of jobs will go due to automation. Even supermarket staff are slowly being replaced by machines in the form of self service checkouts.
As such universal income will become a reality for many people. As long as it is set at a realistic level it should be ok. The idea of having to work when there aren't any jobs is laughable. Its about time people were allowed to live with some dignity if working isn't available
Because they allow them to...
Question: why describe this as “sadly”? If we consider the alternative, it’s to waste time standing in line watching a check out assistant scanning items, waiting your turn.
I can now be in-and-out of my supermarket in 10mins; 2 or 3 of those at the self-service. That’s a much more enjoyable experience and a better use of my valuable time.
Jobs don’t “go” - they simply change and the challenge, is to adapt in response to it. With greater tech comes data and maintenance - that’s opportunity, for those keen to see it.
@@imconfused1237 Not everyone can easily adapt to new technology and not everyone wants to work from home. All those who currently work in supermarkets on the checkouts won't all be able to get another job elsewhere. So where does that leave them? It won't only be checkout staff that will lose their jobs to automation it will be factory workers, builders, teachers, cleaners, chefs, farmers, accountants and many others. Not everyone will benefit from automation and not everyone has thought about the consequences of cyber attacks or even an EMP wiping out technology to the extent that nothing will work that's based on technology and automation. Automation may seem like a good idea for convenience to save time for consumers and to save money for big companies focused on profit but it will be the demise of the human race eventually.
@@samanthahardy9903 If people don’t want to adapt or change - fine, but they’ll face the consequences. Doom-mongering in the face of change is a pointless waste of energy and opportunity; instead of focusing on all that can go wrong - which is stating the obvious - better to always identity how YOU can benefit from it.
I make no bones - I have zero time or interest for those who are happy to waste their life. Each one of us is filled with potential, but not everyone has the same drive and mindset to go and fulfil it; most do sod all, then sit around moaning and bringing others down to their level. Negative wasters; anchors to achievement.
This ‘train driving’ job is Mickey Mouse. Sit on your backside pushing a button. That’s not a job, it’s a video game. Stuff like that is PRIME for automation, because a computer will do that job better. And that is a fact. So anyone who does these non-jobs, they’re in the firing line - and if they wanna ignore it, that’s their own stupidity.
Also it would include the proposed Crossrail 2 as it should be given the go ahead and construction to start on Crossrail 2 in couple years time. And driverless tube trains for London isn’t a good idea. With Sadiq Khan has been re-elected as Mayor of London for 2nd term. And many Londoners want him out and want a new Mayor of London.
Honestly, seems a lot like the changes which were institued by Gov. Charlie Baker on the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority through the Fiscal Control Board after the MBTA's meltdown and bailout in 2013.
It all sounds absolutely marvellous drivers deep level tube trains..fantastic...until something goes wrong...and its guaranteed it will..when your stopped 100 feet below ground on a packed train between station's and the lights go out...and then someone says can you smell smoke......!!
The trains will still have a member of staff on board who will be there to deal with emergencies like that. But realistically, how often does that happen? It's pretty rare IMX - so yes, you need to have contingencies for when it _does_ happen, but it is not so common that it is going to affect the day-to-day operation.
@@nononononoo689 good one..luddite..of course technology replaces human beings..fool..
@@nononononoo689 you no nothing
@@nononononoo689 It's been possible to have pilotless passenger aircraft for decades so why don't we have them?
@@nononononoo689 The platform announcements at Covent Garden tell us that walking from the platform to street level is the equivalent of taking the stairs up 15 floors in a building. Hampstead station is even deeper. I wouldn't want to be stuck between stations at that depth without a member of staff to assist, or at least reassure and inform us about what the problem is. Don't forget the temperature in the summer frequently exceeds 40C and the trains (before the pandemic) are often packed in the rush hour.
How old is the Victoria Line? How old is the DLR? Why are we still talking about the possibility of driverless tube trains?
How old is the Northern Line?
Something good from the lockdown 👍
How about updating the gross Piccadilly and Central line trains?!!
Piccadilly line was the deep level line up for first upgrade mentioned and Crossrail is the defacto Central line "upgrade".
Eww modernization
The Bakerloo Line trains are gross if you ask me
@@customtransport2777 Yes! This line too need updating ASAP.
@@the_9ent They will stay till the 30s
Enjoying the video but you need turn up your audio mate
Paris has driverless metros, why shouldn’t TfL? With single tube drivers getting paid up to £100,000 a year there’s a potential for big savings on drivers alone...
Paris has a differnent underground system, Londons is difficult.
Unions and white privilege and rent seeking..
No there isn’t. Those tube drivers on over 100k are test train operators, they have large amounts of traction and route knowledge and work long and weird hours. If 1 or 2 lines go driverless, the lower paid operators on those lines will be paid slightly less than they currently are and continue as on train crew like the DLR. Compare those small savings with the insane capital cost that it will take to convert early 20th century single bore tube tunnels and small stations with weak structures so driverless capabilities, there’s absolutely no point.
Tube drivers don’t get paid £100k. Don’t listen to pathetic propaganda.
There's been countless attempts to build a business case for driverless trains on the tube. It's not going to happen. W&C is the closest you'll come to a line where it might be possible and even there they failed to put together a business case under the Johnson administration. It's a waste of time and money that should be aimed towards improving capacity rather than bad anti-union rhetoric.
Driverless trains have been running in London on four different lines since 1967.
@@allangibson2408 No they have not. We have had automatic trains on the London Underground since 1967 and they currently operate on 8 different lines. These trains do have a driver though.
@@SouthLondonRailwayPhotography Yes but the network DLR is entirely driverless as are many modern metro systems around the world (in fact why would you have a driver in an automated system on rails?!). It is true though that you need big investments to get to the driverless model e.g. platform-edge doors which was happening anyway in the deep-level tube upgrade programmes (delayed by decades due to Gordon Browns private partnership initiative insistance). Boris knew about driverless being tied in with the expensive upgrade programmes already under way when he was Mayor yet he still used the "driverless" jibe for political point scoring then, I suspect its just being used now to cover against any anti-London sentiment from his new Northern MPs with regards to these funding packages.
@@suburbia2050 The DLR and other modern metros are somewhat irrelevant to whether we can convert metros from the early 20th century to driverless. The level of upgrades required for what would be a marginal improvement on capacity is just not worth it in most situations. The Deep Level Upgrade Programme wasn’t underway, in fact the driverless sentiment of the proposals was all but given up on until it started being brought up in bailouts. Til then the DLUP had changed to new trains on GoA2 like the rest of the Underground network.
I can't imagine they would allow trains to run without a "caretaker" on board for security reasons, much like the DLR.
For faster moving trains, and longer (with a lot more loading than DLR) -
I can't see the British accepting no on-board staff - you know how they are for red tape and health and safety (to the extent that jo-public gets a bit fed up with it all).
I don't see it happening. Not in our lifetime anyway.
It will
@@louisbeerreviews8964 No it won't. The drivers are not just gonna roll over and allow their jobs to be taken from them.
The Glasgow Subway is bringing in driverless trains next year - but it’s a much smaller and much much simpler system! 6.5 miles and in a circle. They aren’t planning to have any staff on board at all, but I’m hoping they will reconsider as late nights at weekends and days when football is on won’t be very pleasant with no staff on board
Are the stations and, particularly, the platforms staffed? There needs to be an official presence to ensure public safety.
@@johnm2012 The stations are staffed but the platforms are normally not staffed (though staff do supervise platforms at main stations at rush hours). Maybe they’ll move staff to platforms when the new trains come? I’d prefer staff on trains though..
@@AlasdairMacCaluim Thanks for the reply. I don't see much potential for saving staffing costs without compromising passenger wellbeing. I think staff riding with the passengers could be more effective than just having drivers. In London they lock themselves safely in their cabs and their only contact with passengers is via the intercom. I can't say I blame them for not putting themselves at risk but the best a passenger under attack can expect is for the driver to radio ahead for help. If technology allows driverless trains - and let's face it, it's a simpler problem to solve than driverless cars - it shouldn't be used as an excuse for reducing staff numbers.
A bit like driverless cars, sounds brilliant, the reality is 'nope Look at it another way, would you get on board a pilotless plane?
Considering the caption, there is far too much waffle.
What about train drivers what's going to happen to them why we need driver less
Some will remain as train captains or whatever title the person on board of each train will have, some will take other employment within the organisation, some will retire early, the rest will get redundancy pay. Think of all the other jobs that no longer exist and what happened to the people who did those jobs.
driverless trains first on the Waterloo & city line first what for this line is almost office workers only as Bojo has given the green light for office workers to work for ever that line will be the first to be shut then the other lines will have reduce passengers because no office workers then security & cleaners plus catering staff will be made redundant because offices will be shut then there will be further passengers reduction because they can’t afford the tube some will turn to cycling which doesn’t bring in any money plus as you stated there will be industrial action by the unions so this will put extra strain on buses because they are cheaper then the tube so it will be near impossible to meet the government targets I do not like Khan but bojo is turning into a war on labour if a Tory mayor in office bojo would be more lenient
They are not called boris bikes
They are
@@louisbeerreviews8964 no there not
@@louisbeerreviews8964 Santander Cycles (formerly Barclays Cycle Hire) is a public bicycle hire scheme in London in the United Kingdom. The scheme's bicycles are popularly known as Boris Bikes, after Boris Johnson who was Mayor of London when the scheme began operating.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santander_Cycles
They weren’t even created or the idea cam out from boris
I can’t believe we are still having this conversation in 2021. The work on automated trains should have started ages ago. Quite a few other countries have managed it and it brought plenty of positives. You don’t see postmen going on strike because Google took their business with Gmail. Times change, jobs change. Let’s not get stuck in the past if there are clearly better ways of doing things.
No. Postman have more work on deliveries than ever. Not likely to be complaining since they’ve never been more profitsble
@@captainhindsight8604 Exactly. But did we get to that stage immediately? No. The market changed.
People started using the internet which was feared would cost many jobs. In the end, it has created totally new jobs and changed the old jobs, like going from delivering mail to delivering parcels.
It’s now time to do the same for transport. Rethought from the ground up. Electric scooters, electric cars, automated trains, etc.
There’s a huge amount of misinformation out there, but largely the reason driverless trains are not likely is cost. ATO signalling upgrades stretch into the £billions and even then the train attendant is on 95% of the money the driver is on (see DLR). It’s cheaper to pay a driver, an unpopular truth but as has already happened the TfL commissioner has again rejected driverless trains calling them a waste of tax payer money. For those more interested look up the cost of resignalling the Jubilee in 2013, then ask how far the bailout will go towards doing the Piccadilly line. Further, the current signalling upgrades on the S Stock lines has been paused. It’s simply propaganda, Londoners are being taken for mugs, all the information is freely available, I can’t understand why more people aren’t aware. We want cheaper fares not cheap political point scoring
Whyd you stop posting
There Will never (NEVER) be driverles tupe trains in London.
street broadenings never happened wholesale there (hallelujah!) yet wealthiness has now arrived at edgeing out less-monied...just whose heads there gotta roll :pfft:
This will put hundreds out of work
you are right but that's going to happen through automation with AI any way !
@@billpalmer2381 even in supermarkets they have self checkouts, back in the days when you bought dvd's and vhs but now its all digital even video games, ordering food and shopping can all be done online
@@Gencturk92 My local high street will have no banks soon, the last two branches are closing this summer. There is no post office either, that closed a few years ago. Business premises are being converted into flats.
ah man how technology is taking over everything, vhs and dvd's are gone thanks to netflix, video games are now digital, self checkout in supermarkets and now driverless trains
Sooner the better. The pension cost alone for the fat cat TfL staff is unbelievable...
Boris Johnson. The Worker's Friend.
Driverless trains are a good idea.
And they will happen eventually but the cost of the upgrade, not to mention the disruption to the travelling public, will be enormous.
Amazing how improvements happen when the main government get involved instead of just leaving it all to the local government.
Which is the "improvement" part? And why are you so oblivious to the all the actual improvements that have been done over the past few years?
Driverless trains would operate better than with a driver. And that includes mainline trains
That maybe the case but you still need a full trained member of staff on board in case of things going wrong so he’ll need to be paid so where the saving and it still won’t be safe to operate without this member of staff
A lot of people are going to lose their job now
@Aname A Those machines are already replacing bank and supermarket staff. Bank branches are being closed as a result and the footfall they generated in high streets is in turn affecting other local businesses. Be careful what you wish for.
Hopefully this will happen. The cost of drivers is disproportionately high compared to other systems. Credit where credit is due to RMT they have done their members proud - we have drivers starting on 60k and salaries of 100k are not uncommon. Compare that to the national average salary of £32k! Its unsustainable. Progress marches on.
£100k salaries are uncommon, those are normally for test train operators who have weird hours and need a lot of route and traction knowledge. It’s a very complicated job. But the more important point here is that the capital cost of conversion to driverless operation is worse than the operation expenditure of paying those drivers, especially as the lower paid end of the spectrum will continue to be on train staff and just take a small salary cut and the higher paid end will continue as is as they cover large amounts of the underground network.
Tube drivers don’t get 100k. Get your facts straight.
@@daveb0789 www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/london-tube-drivers-earn-ps100-000-a-year-new-figures-reveal-a4018716.html%3famp
Get your "facts" right. They differ from my facts.
@@peterashcroft8058 yeah because the Standard says so 🙄
And yet you want to spend a ton more money on this pointless folly?
Loads of cities already have it. Long overdue.
Can you name them?
@@keithyrudeboy007 Barcelona, Budapest, Sofia, Copenhagen, Sao Paolo, Shanghai et al.
@Richard Joniec so you saying that all these countries operate all there services without staff or just one or two select lines. Don’t get me wrong I can’t wait for the day when you go to a tube station where there is no staff and drivers on the trains and we have another July 2007, then we will see how we will cope.
@@keithyrudeboy007 I think Singapore's system is totally driverless but it is new and was designed that way from the beginning.
@Richard Joniec what is the point of that ? I thought the whole point of driverless trains was to get rid of the drivers and there supposed high salary and reduce the burden on government so we have a totally capitalist utopia. Not redeploy them and keep them just in case something might go wrong, I thought computers were cleverer then that.
Platform edge doors would look horrible at old stations, I really hope they don't install them.
They simply cant. Isnt even reasonable, espically on the sub surface lines.
I mean, it's safer because if you have experienced rush hour at say, Oxford Circus you can clearly see how close they are to falling off the track. One gentle nudge could be a casualty and may hold up the line for hours.
@@Simulation101YT + they prevent suicides which are extremely traumatic and also hold up the line for hours
The main purpose of Platform Edge Doors is actually to make the air-conditioning work.
Heat rises. That means cool air falls.
So, when TfL tries to pump cool air into the stations (to stop passengers feeling sick or passing out) instead of building up enough cool air to get to people's heads, the cold air flows over the edge of the platform, and drops down onto the track.
And, when a train comes into the station it punches that cold air into the tunnel ahead of it.
In stations where PEDs are fitted (like the Jubilee Line Extension) to cold air is held in by the wall and the cold air can fill up to the hight of passengers. It only leaks out, when the trains are in the stations. And then, some of that cold air will leak into the trains (where you don't mind, as it's helping passengers).
So PEDs are going to make passengers feel much more comfortable on the platforms...
...the fact that this also means that less passengers will end up on the track, in front of trains is a side-benefit.
And these two key benefits outweigh any concerns about PED walls looking "horrible". London Underground is a working system. Not a museum.
Why are driver-less trains good? Good for who? Public transport is not a business, it's a service that enables London to do business. Drivers pay tax, buy stuff and stimulate the economy. Electronic circuits do not...capital destruction destroys capitalism. People and their wages and taxes stimulate real business and create more jobs etc. Short term savings are going to cost us all...dearly.
there is two sides, one where public emplyment stimulates the economy, the other where every bit of tax money wasted is theft.
you need a balance, so best way to do it is to make the systems as effective and low cost without reducing service
@@Bungle2010 wasted as in inefficient spending, healthcare for instance, you want it to be as cost efficient as possible
@@itsjonny1744 That's not an answer. Define specifics.
@Aname A The member of staff on the train will still have to be paid. Are the low-paid less likely to go on strike than the better-paid? Before the pandemic I travelled on the Underground almost daily and there were years between strikes, and the 'strikes' were about safety, like when drivers refused to drive underground while the firemen were on strike.
At present for the majority of the network it is not practical nor cost effective for driverless trains to be implemented bar Waterloo and City
What about the Victoria line? It opened in the sixties and was capable of being driverless. But the unions wouldn’t allow it. So the “drivers” just open and close the doors.
@@oldman1734 If you think it's just the Victoria line a where that happens you're mistaken. Also, most people aren't aware that you do manual driving on all parts of those lines.
When they discuss driverless trains, people don't take into consideration faults which drivers deal with daily, passengers taken ill and the sad cases of people falling under the train.
@@oldman1734 look at my reply above.
So more jobs going 😳
The first tube trains capable of being driverless go back to the sixties, the Victoria line.
But the unions wouldn’t allow it. So they just sit there to this very day, just opening and closing the doors.
That bloke doesn’t seem to know anything about that.
I think you will find the general public rather then the unions did not like the idea of no staff on board.
Any proposed changes to the pensions of Tfl staff , drastic working conditions and London will see the worse strikes it has ever seen . My advice buy a bike or a pair of roller skates as your going to need them 💀💀💀💀💀💀✊🏻✊🏻✊🏻✊🏻🙏😳😳😳🐫u will have more than the hump 😂😂😂🐫🐫🐫🐫
I work for TFL and have just joined the RMT. Pensions are the biggest political hot potato, and I believe this will be the main reason they go on strike. I joined the union as most the staff are members and it seems a little unfair to reap the rewards of unionisation without contributing. I do not intend to go on strike, but hope both parties come to an agreement which will suit everybody. I am happy to forego pay rises for the next 2 years in exchange for maintaining the current pension scheme, and I will talk to my fellow staff as it is in no-ones interest to have lengthy strikes.
@@TheScillonian3 👍if your a member of the Rmt and they call a strike u would be expected not to cross any picket line or find yourself frowned upon . Sadly that’s how it goes , respect your choice . The pensions will be a sticking point but there is a wider range of issues regarding health and safety . I’ve worked for Tfl and been a member of the Rmt for 23 years . There will be changes and rightly so if Tfl are to move forward but not at the cost to the workers of all grades .
I don’t always agree with the Rmt and there left wing militant stance but on these future proposals I will happily strike . Take care 👍✊🏻😳
I wonder how TfL pensions compare to MPs pensions?
@@peterc.1618 go and find out Peter ……. 😳😳😳😳💀
@@BOSHDUB It was a rhetorical question, I think we all know the answer without looking it up.
This is not a good thing, a lot of train drivers are going to lose their jobs over something that could fail easily
I dont think it will be completely driverless as the DLR still has a manual driving system in case it fails so there will still be people hired to be in the cab
It's hard to say what the outcome of all this will be. It could very well be a shift in roles like with the ticket offices closing...or not. I guess time will tell unfortunately
@@terminx7841 yes, and DLR also has a crew member that closes the doors at every station. I can imagine the tube will have to have a similar human on board.
@@jezp1976 That's what I would've thought. If the trains are still going to have a member of staff on board anyway then surely there won't be any job losses?
@@Inkyminkyzizwoz There might not be job losses but there could still be job downgrades. If the on-board member of staff is not responsible for driving the train, it's very likely that TfL would look to reduce their salaries and T&Cs to reflect that reduced role.
This can’t come soon enough
For years the unions have cited “safety” as a condition for not having driverless trains with literally no other reason than safeguarding well paid jobs which are only available to union members (you basically can’t become a tube driver unless you’re in the union)
(you basically can’t become a tube driver unless you’re in the union) Yeah maybe 40 years ago, that crap ended in the 80's.
Nonsense. There are lots of train drivers not in a union. TBH you sound a tad jealous, why don’t you apply to become a train driver so you can work in a well paid job! Does mean you’ll have no control of your working pattern or when your rest days and holidays are, but I’m sure you’ll be fine with that.
@@stripeyjoe
Well if I wanted a pay cut, far shorter hours and a lot less travelling I might think of applying!!
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-tube-strike-want-become-tube-driver-don-t-bother-they-only-recruit-internally-10441834.html
@@ayecarambapoker so your job is better paid than a tube driver’s? Lucky old you!
@@ayecarambapoker I don't think you can be a tube driver if you don't like travelling, it's kind of what the job entails.
Like the London tube driver’s are going to put up with that,go on strike and bring the whole thing to a stop and they will Cripple London in days,this is one that Transport for London are going to find difficult to win,there should be NO driverless train’s like there should be no driverless cars and trucks this is a stupid idea I hope never happens.
its going to happen no matter what so introduce it gradually retire drivers and switch drivers to lines not up graded as u go use natural waste stop recruitment
It amazes me how anyone voted for Sadiq ,he’s been a failure for London on every metric, We need stronger opposition in London.
I firmly disagree. Driverless trains are a very bad idea..... especially in the light of increasing ‘cyber warfare’ globally.
The subway ticket is too expensive. Subway workers only do a little work, hardly work to get money
What would you know?
Hua Zhang really? If tube workers don't do no work why not join tfl and try out yourself if it is really that easy as you think
@@zararkhan9633 Like any other job, there is a lot more to it than we as passengers see or know about.
I work a 3 shift rota my shortest week is 38 hours my longest is 63 hours I work 2 weekends every month and the only bank holiday I get is Xmas day and every month I pay into the TFL pension scheme oh yeah I’m not allowed to drink any alcohol 12 hours before I book on for work as we are randomly tested
You should apply you might enjoy it
Jokemen
The glee with which people anticipate deskilling and job losses is breath taking and shameful.
Show us a fool proof automated system, invulnerable to hacking, then make the business case.
Hopefully this won't happen. This will put hundreds of driver's out of their jobs.
It will
Ditch the irrelevant and distracting 'music'. Just speak the info.
Yo he mr ashley fell off ratio.
They're all driverless in Paris.
No, they're not all driverless in Paris.
@Richard Joniec And the Paris Metro, if I remember rightly, is only subsurface unlike much of our deep-level tube system.
No @ Lucas edmumd
What a joke Sadiq Khan is, worst London mayor ever.
Boris wasted a ton of public money on that stupid "garden bridge" idea and bought an illegal armoured vehicle for the Metropolitan Police (that was broken).
I'd make the cyclists pay - after all, everyone else has to pay for the use of transport infrastructure...
They are already paying.
Abolish the position of London Mayor. We don’t need one especially one as useless as Mr Khan.
Thatcher should have destroyed the RMT as well. They are a real pain in the proverbial. And they're not healthy streets because cars are now sat for hours in jams because Khanage has closed roads. Utterly insane. Pollution has increased as a result. The IQ is astonishing.
Be nice to keep your right wing opinions to yourself. Be better for all of us.
But she didn’t. Why was that??
@@keithyrudeboy007 Keep your Hard Left anti-British extremism to yourself, be better for the UK.
@@richardwills-woodward5340 so you said it all in your first sentence before you went way off topic. She new she wouldn’t win a battle with the RMT. Just like this opportunistic government is about to find out. As a member of the RMT and an London Underground worker the government is about to achieve something no other government has managed. Unite all of TFL/LUL against a raid on our pensions scheme.
@@paulsmith5018 Public sector anarchists are unaffordable. You don't deserve the pay rates you are on and well you know it, so of course they will carp, moan and complain. Thatcher would have won against the RMT, but she would have lost on the NHS. The public sector is over bloated, under-educated and costs too much. Further, unlike Germany, our unions have very low IQ's.