James bissonette actually had an interesting offer for How the post war Germany would look like but the Allies refused because it would’ve made Germany an even richer country
There is a mistake at 0:43, Stalin did NOT control Hungary at the time of the Tehran conference in late 1943. The Eastern Front was stable around western Ukraine at that time. Most of Hungary only came under Soviet control at the very end of 1944, and parts of it remained Axis until early 1945.
@@lenchstudios I don't know that there were any agreements by late 1943, that came more at Yalta in February 1945. But there was definitely a de facto impression that the Soviets would get to Hungary first.
The damaged wall in what was presumably Truman's White House is a neat reference to the massive renovation of said mansion during his administration which saw it completely gutted and rebuilt internally, leaving only the outside facade as original. And yeah, it was basically falling apart to the extent that it was structurally unsound.
Another little-known fact: It was during those renovations that a Puerto Rican nationalist tried to kill Truman. Fortunately, Truman was not present at the time.
Something I'd read about Morgenthau's plan for division - one of the main reasons it was unpopular overall was because by getting rid of Germany's industrial strength altogether and forcing it to be a purely agrarian state (presumably forever), it probably would have caused one of the most horrific mass starvations in history (with an estimated 25 million deaths), mostly because of how it would have been structured for the German people. Also, it probably would have caused the people in the 2 Germany's to build up again as part of another uber-nationalist and probably fascist force, spiraling back to how everything started. Not to mention it would not be a very good look on the Allies, as this would basically shatter the idea that the Allies were the "good guys" in the war. Morgenthau's plan was eventually published in the US in 1944, and the Nazi government used it as a tool to justify continuing the war.
I agree, it would have come across as a vengeance peace, a genocide for a genocide. Too few today realize just how CRITICAL winning the peace is. You can crush the enemy's armies, destroy their navies, reduce their cities to rubble, but if you don't take away their desire for revenge or uprising, you'll just create an endless cycle of violence. This is why we had to make peace with the Germans and Japanese at least mostly the way we did. Otherwise, World War III, World War IV, etc. When the western powers did the Berlin Airlift, many Germans literally were in tears, they couldn't believe a former enemy would care about them enough to save their lives from starvation or freezing. Truly one of the greatest displays of humanity America and Britain ever did, and it left an impact for generations.
Nothing says being mature than doing the same vengeful thing that led them to this very war in the first place. Vlad Tepes is more mature than the guy who thinks this is a great plan when he let go of his anger against Hungary just to have help retaking Wallachia...
James Bissonette and Kelley Moneymaker, Sky Chappelle, Porsche Wulf, Jerry Lambden, Jordan Longley, Avin Stolter, Mark, Wyan Hockey, Spencer Lightfoot, Rod DeMartin, Words About Books Podcast, and all the rest of those wonderful patrons decided how Germany would be divided.
@@bazsamester no that is actually not true, the soviets still fought on hungarian soil in april 4th, but the soviet generals told stalin they already occupied all of it. Funny thing is that under communism april 4th was still a national holiday until 1989
So Germany would have massively expaned and get an emperor back. Also Czechia, Luxembourg, Belgium, Lichtenstein,Switzerland and Luxembourg would suddenly stop existing as souveraign states. Most of eastern France (Burgundy was part of the HRE before their duke died and they got split between Habsburgs and France) and all of northern Italy would also de jure suddenly be ruled by Vienna. DeGaulle would have propably died of a heart attack from shock immediatly and Poland would be on suicide watch. Northern Italy would have propably celebrated finally beeing rid of "useless" southern Italy. The dutch and belgiums would just think how to make the most profit out of the situation while Luxembourg and Lichtenstein would celebrate beeing the only "old school original members" of the original HRE now beeing back at the way "things used to be". Switzerland would get back their mercenary tradition to suppl soldiers for the new HRE civil wars sure to come.
@@noobster4779 I believe he meant splitting Germany into hundreds of tiny states, since the HRE was very decentralized with lots of different independent states within it.
@@connorhawthorne541 I know that, I life in a region that was until 1947 rather literally still a former tiny dutchy from the HRE times and didnt change form signifocantly in like 500 years, even managing to remain a "federal state" during the german empire and weimar republic :D In 1947 the britosh (may their tea tase like shit for this crime) forced us to decide between the new german federal states of Lower Saxony or Northrhine-Westphalia. The end of centuries of independence (btw or former dukes family still lifes in their castle in the middle of the dutchys capital. Nothung changes in out little peasent region I guess :D)
0:23 wow, I thought that after what happened the last time the Allies wouldn’t be as strict as in WW1, vanishing Prussia to Brazil is outright inhumane
The terms on Germany after WW2 were a lot more severe than in Versailles. It's a myth that the allies were lenient to avoid a repeat of WW2. In fact Versailles was a very lenient treaty all things considered.
2:25 And this explains why Bremen is a federal state. Berlin and Hamburg are federal states, but they are the 1st and 2nd largest cities in Germany. Bremen is the only the 11th largest. But the Americans wanted their own port instead of using a British one, and someone really messed up not integrating Bremen into Niedersachsen when the new states were formed.
It's worth remembering that the newly created Federal Republic of Germany was not under any obligation to follow the boundaries of the former western occupation zones. Baden, Wurttemberg and Hohenzollern in the southwest were divided between the French and US zones, and each side initially organized their own states in the region (the French 2, the Americans just one). But these were amalgamated into the current-day state of Baden-Wurttemberg soon after the FRG was proclaimed. So while the US occupation explains why Bremen started out as a state, it wouldn't have been one for long had it not been for its history of statehood going back to the Middle Ages. Lubeck, with an even smaller population than Bremen and a similar history, tried unsuccessfully to have its own statehood restored under the FRG (the Nazis annexed it to Schleswig-Holstein in 1937).
@@loveroffunnyy Red = SPD (Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands / Social Democratic Party of Germany) and Black = CDU (Social Democratic Party of Germany / Christian Democratic Union of Germany). They were the two major political parties in Germany. SPD was often winning in cities and CDU in rural areas.
The Morgenthau plan did no just involve splitting up Germany in several parts, but also dismantling its industry almost entirely. The first part didn't happen as such, but the second part did become official US policy in their occupation zone and some factories were indeed closed. Pretty soon it was realized by the commander of the US occupation forces that such a policy would drive the Germans into the hands of the Soviets and that in any case Germany's industrial base could not be missed for the ongoing reconstruction of Western Europe. It nevertheless took those in Washington several years to change their official position and go all out to restore German economic power. The rest is Wirtschaftswunder.
Whilst that sounds plausible, Decisions at nationstate level, are purely sellfish.The US rejecting that plan, was purely because they wanted as many markets as possible, to sell their products in future. They knew the dollar was goin to dominate, with the European Powers now impoverishhed so they needed a Germany, with citizen able to buy goods
A quote I read somewhere was "given the choice between capitalism on 1000 calories a day or communism on 1500, there isn't really a choice." And was apparently one of the major reasons the Morgenthau plan was dropped.
I think the biggest problem with the Morgenthau plan is that it treats the Germans as if they are a problematic people inherently and thus must have their quality of life and ability to do damage reduced. My opinion is that it overlooked the role of culture. Instead of impoverishing or punishing Germany, what I would have wanted to do is get rid of the idea of Germany. Just teach them all to speak some other language, rename the cities to non-German names, and basically stamp out the German culture and language altogether, eventually merging pieces of German land into surrounding countries. That is to say, let the people live and the factories stay up, but let them know that this whole "Germany" thing is done and they are required to move on. The thing I find annoying about the past ways of dealing with Germans is that what they always served to do is single out the Germans as a distinctive people that have to continue to exist in order to be punished and held them accountable in ways that made them very aware of their German identity. When it was really that German identity itself that was the whole problem.
@@jeremyandrews3292 You'd be surprised, but in some way this is actually what happened. Not the banning of German language or culture as such, however Prussia, the largest German constituent state, was quite deliberately wiped out as a political and cultural entity. Many, and especially the Soviets, saw Prussia as the source of German militarism that needed to be suppressed in order to guarantee long term peace. And so its territory was redistributed and remembering its achievements in any positive light was strongly discouraged.
good ideas for a new video: - why did Vietnam invade Cambodia in the aftermath of the Vietnam War and the fall of the Khmer Rouge? - How and why did Germany colonize Samoa and New Guinea? - Why does Guatemala claim ownership of Belize? - Why did Romania not leave the Warsaw Pact after the invasion of Czechoslovakia, similar to what Albania did? - Why did Italy want the Dodecanese in the aftermath of the Italo-Turkish War? - Why did Sikkim join India in 1975 instead of Nepal, Bhutan, or China? - How were the borders of the Soviet Republics drawn? (p.s I have a million more of these)
The specifics involved dividing the sectors up on the basis of pre-Nazi political boundaries. This resulted in some extra-territorial bits of West Berlin outside the main bit because they used the 1928 Berlin city boundaries for dividing that place up and some estates in what is now Brandenburg were in Berlin. The British swapped half of Staaken in return for the Soviet-controlled bit of the Gatow airfield. The Americans didn't have a port in their sector, so the British let them have Bremerhaven for their own use. The French didn't need a port - because land border. Stalin had back the bits of land that had been allocated to Russia by Lord Curzon and lost to Poland in the Polish-Soviet War. He'd unilaterally grabbed something pretty much on those lines and the Western Allies ultimately let him have it. The northern half of East Prussia, including what is now Kaliningrad, was desired by Stalin because of that old Russian favourite: *WARM WATER PORT!* To compensate Poland for that loss, they yoinked everything off Germany east of the Oder-Neisse Line. Which Neisse took some discussion. To give the Poles Stettin/Szczecin, the border was then plonked slap bang down the middle of the island of Usedom. Today, it's the one place you can freely walk between Germany and Poland without getting wet or crossing a bridge, forming the setting of a German crime drama as well.
Poland gained that land from Germany to extend its borders westwards,but at the same time it had land taken from it on its eastern borders and handed to Belarus and Ukraine in the Soviet Union,including the city of Lviv/Lvov. So in essence Poland shifted west slightly from where it used to be!
I found this comment quite informative! I was wondering why Poland was given much of the former German lands. Also, didn't know the UK traded parts of Staaken for part of an airfield! Thanks for the info!
@@rjjcms1 Polish borders are more close now to those from year 1000. Poland was moving east from 1138 to 1384. At the same time Germans were stealing Polish, Pomeranian, Czech, Lusatian, Veneti and Obotrite lands. Germans were building Marches, settling Germans and performing Germanization process on West Slavic land since 800. Finally, Germans grabbed All West Slavic land up to Curzon line in 1939. And after that Germans wanted even more... And Poland was moved back west after WW2. After WW2, Poland and Czechia were given back only some land that were stolen by Germans from West Slaves for 1200 years. Lusatia was Czech or Polish for long time and stayed after WW2 on German side of the border anyway. And Lusatians wanted after WW2 to be in Czechoslovakia or Poland, but Stalin did not agree. Veleti and Obotrites (West Slaves) territories should also be in Poland. Veleti and Obotrites were speaking language similar the most to Polish and Kashubian/Pomeranian. The east German border should not be on Oder and Lusatian Neisse, but on Elbe river.
@@robertab929 Youre crazy, who gives a damn where poles or germans lived 800 years ago. By setting the new border to the Oder river hundreds of thousands of germans had to forcibly be resettled westward and many even died while scarcely any poles lived in those regions, so why move the border even more west, wheres the sense in that.
The big note about the Churchill plan was that the Hapsburg heir was a major part of it. He worked with saving Jewish lives and wanted to restore Austria Hungary as some sort of power
@@deutschermichel5807 They didn't "cause" it. Europe was ready for war, with the tension like the seconds before the Olympic 100m final. Everyone was waiting for an excuse to start. The assassination was "just" the perfect excuse, delivered on a silver plate.
@@deutschermichel5807 I am proud of our willingness to be free and to fight for our freedom regardless of what enemy is in front of us, and how many times do we need to fight against said enemy.
Interesting video once again! I find these alternative plans very interesting. In the Kaufman plan (Germany Must Perish!) my country (the Netherlands) would border Poland!
What the fuck I just read up about it and now I know where the Attack on Titan author got his inspiration from. Never thought anyone would have actually had such a crazy idea.
I was kind of disappointed you didnt cover why France got their zone and the UK got their zone. Especially when the UK was against occupation. Or even the american enclaves north of Hamburg and why they existed.
Especially the way France used to sneak into the occupying powers while the US were all on relegating it to the lower rank of great powers. Darn de Gaulle, always where you don't expect him.
@@dinasov9 true they did the least and got the most i know it was russia who pushed it but would a polish pre war state not be better since you get all the eats german resources anyway
France got their zone because french army was able to provide 1.6 million soldiers by late 1944 early 1945 to invade Germany on the west front while UK provide 1 million, Canada 1.1 million and Poland 200 000 (US provide 4.5 million).
1:58 The flag of South Germany: Black & White stands for Prussia, a state in North Germany. Red stands for the Hanseatic Union, a union of port cities in North Germany.
It’s interesting how unplanned the division of Germany was. I got the impression that the zones were formally agreed upon before Germany was occupied. Then again, many things in history are unplanned…
@@danielbishop1863 Funny enough Germany proved that. How long did the 1000 year Reich last? 12 years. How long did the Federal Republic of Germany (which was a 100% temporary solution for just a few years) last? 73 years and there is more to come.
Russia isn't gonna give Brazil the Konigsberg/Kaliningrad territory, lol. If they ever wanted rid of it they'd either try and pawn it off on Poland or give it back to it's rightful owner, Germany. I doubt either Poland or Germany would want a territory full of Russians becoming part of their territories though so yeah...but it's unlikely to leave Russian hands anytime soon anyway. (Side note but you should look up Konigsberg videos from before World War 2. It was truly a marvelous city and it is a shame it was so thoroughly annihilated and then rebuild with garbage Soviet architecture.)
I love the detail of Mustafa Kemal saying "Fight me" at 0:58 (despite being dead by then) as in February 23, 1945 Turkey declared war on Germany... right before the German surrender in May.
That was Mustafa Kemal, right? I couldn't be sure :) He had already died in 1938 and it was his successor Ismet Inonu's endeavour to keep TR out of the war until....well, Feb'45 :):) The speculation about whether Ataturk himself would have joined the war earlier (early enough to make a difference) continues.
Ah yes the good old "winging it" tactic, its also one of my favorite tactics during exams, but its great that even nations with people with their whole lives depend on also uses this tactic
Done based on old borough boundaries too, BTW. The boundaries are less visible now due to many boroughs merging in 2001 to save money; 21 boroughs became 11.
the allies needed an escape plan for their berliner nazi friends who would’ve under total soviet control unless they got their feet into Berlin itself? splitting the country east and west and also splitting berlin, clearly in the east, is a bit strange
I recall that you (or another RUclipsr, I forget) made the grave sin of excluding Thuringia from East Germany. You did not do that this time around. Congrats! Great, accurate maps all around. :D
@@Septimus_ii If think a unified germany with a constitution stating that it has to be neutral economicaly and militarily towars USSR and USA. That way it would be a buffer zone and nobody would feel excluded because it would have had a strong socialist sector aligned to the ussr and a strong conservative/liberal one favouring USA.
I'm really surprised you haven't covered the partition of Austria and Vienna, and the subsequent re-establishment of Austria. Would be interesting to compare/contrast what occupation looked like in the 2 countries.
Henry morganthau's plan was rejected primarily because it would mean that Germany would shift from being an industrial country to an agrarian one, wich would also mean it would have to find a way to feed its extremely large population with food grown onto the same fields the allies had just burned down. This would in turn lead to a giant famine in both Germanies wich would in turn lead to starvation migration/immigration and an overall humanitarian crisis, (if you ask me perfect setting grounds for another world war once again started by a very upset and hungry Germany). Also the soviets weren't just going to give up Berlin and the allies wanted to avoid war with the red giant at all costs.
The last straw that forced the split was the new currency for the three Western sectors introduced in 1948. Right up until the Euro replaced the DM, you could still find 1948 10 Pfennig pieces in circulation that said “Bank of the German lands” instead of “Federal Republic of Germany”. Most successful currency reform of all time.
@@deutschermichel5807 As an American visiting Germany it was cool to find those in change and know that I was holding in my hand a humble coin that had been minted in the United States in the hope of getting Germany moving again, and that coin had then gone on to witness the economic and political transformation of Germany from devastated dictatorship to prosperous free democracy. Made me proud to be an American that we had a part in that.
Because Habsburgs. I live in the Polish one. Also good chunks of Western Ukraine now are also Galicia. It was Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria in Polish. I believe it's latinization of Halych and Volodymyr (Older names for those lands). H often turns to G, so you'd end up with something sounding like "Galic and Lodomer"
@@jannegrey593 I don't think you understood the question. There are two separate regions in Europe called Galicia. One is where you described it and the other is in north-western Spain. If I remember correctly, the reason for that is simply that both regions where settled by Celts in antiquity and the Romans referred to them as Gauls. Therefore they are both called Galicia.
@@3st3st77 Ruś Halicka - that's how it was called. I think that the name Galicia, came from it sounding very similarly to Austrian Habsurgs - who wanted to remind everyone that they also were in power in Spain, so the name was changed to Galicja (Polish spelling). I don't know if it comes from Celts (if so, then Romans weren't exactly super accurate here, but they were never as far as Polish Galicia), that could make interesting episode, but in the end it simply sounded similar to people that partitioned Poland. So they changed it to sound exactly like the region they had claim on. Perhaps to enhance their own claim on this region. Partitioning of Poland was a big deal and it wasn't called Galicja, before partitions. But had a similar sounding name.
The Galicia that is in Western Ukraine is how the Habsburgs latinised the ukrainian name of the region (Halychyna). When they partitioned the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Austria justified its claims by the fact that some hungarian king was a temporary regent while the Ruthenian King Danylo Romanovych was a child, and therefore they named the whole territory they took Galicia, despite the polish half of those territories never being under Ruthenian rule. When it comes to the spanish Galicia, idk.
I would like to know more about how the German people reacted to this. I know there was actually a lot of info on how they reacted, specifically to the new border with Poland
They were mostly pretty happy, that the war was over and they could... You know... Get some food on the table again, although it would still take years for the germans to return to their pre-war cousine. Carving Germany up like Morgenthau intended would probable have led to some mire protests in Germany, but as this never went into effect most germans never learned of the plan or considered it to be a possible option.
@@MrTohawk Wrong. Those nazi-lovers were actually quite happy that Polish authorities (unlike Russian army) let them survive and get the f..k back to present-day Germany.
A sidenote: The eastern parts of Germany were ceded to Poland because the Soviets had just taken the eastern part of Poland, and had to put the excess Polish people somewhere(there's probably more to talk into this subject, but it's a rabbit hole). As for the germans, they were exiled to what would become Germany proper.
Worth adding that it wasn't some random German lands to appease us and have a place for new homes for Poles from former eastern Poland and now USSR, but in medieval period it was Polish. Communist government used that in their propaganda to portray themselves as patriots who claim rightfully Polish land In XIIIth century Mongols invaded Poland and destroyed it. Germans began to settle in Pomerania and Silesia and rebuild them. After some time, these lands peacefully germanized. In 1945 they were as Polish as Andalusia Arabic
@@polishedpebble4111 insanity, Belarus was never a thing and Ukraine was just a couple year post Russian Empire State.. I’m just an American history nerd w/ only Croatian Slavic background so no bias on it I think lo
There actually was a short-lived Belarusian Democratic Republic in 1918-19. Its flag (white-red-white horizontal stripes) is still used today by its government-in-exile and protestors against Lukashenko.
@@polishedpebble4111 The situation is more complex than that. First of all, what is today Belarus had not been ethnically 'belarussian' until after WW2, and was inhabited by many Poles. Second of all, Belarus has a very weak national identity, being a sort of 'polonised Russia', it tended to just do what the big brothers did. As for Ukraine, just like Belarus it had a large Polish minority until WW2 ended, and they were not 'occupied', but had an understanding with Pilsudski that he'd give them a free Ukraine after liberating it from the USSR, which he never managed.
It honestly made a lot of sense from a British perspective. Creating 2 German states of equal power, with the new one aligned to the west. Good example of dividing the European enemy to maintain a balance of power
Saying was with the occupation zones: Britain got the harbors, France got the industry, America got the scenery. During hot deep war, the allies considered forcing a defeated Germany to revert an agrarian subsistence state with little or no industry. Presently they realized a rebuilt strengthened Europe would need Germany to rebuild and recover, too.
America had a large isolationist movement; the America First movement was closely aligned with the pro-Nazi German American Bund and the Republican Party. Eventually in 1939, President Franklin D Roosevelt was able to push Lend-Lease loans to Great Britain arguing the need to support Great Britain and the danger to US allies after the Soviet Union signed a non-aggression pact with Germany dividing Poland. The United States did not declare war on Germany until 1942, shortly after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and Germany agreed to support Japan.
Another example of the whole thing being ad hoc is that the current German constitution is called the "Basic Law" because it was intended to be a temporary regime pending the writing of a new constitution for a unified Germany. Then it worked well enough that everyone just decided to keep it.
I like ur first “this example” and there is no reason, and I’m especially not biased as a Dane, I just like it for some reason. Edit: NM I like the last “this” the best China and Brazil can get parts of Germany, it seems fair and fine.
The one we got was probably for the best (if it had to be divided). But as a fellow Dane I agree that the second one definitely had the right idea about where the Danish border should be
After the war ended there was in fact a large majority south of the border petitioning to be reunified with Denmark. The British offered as much of Slesvig as Denmark wanted but the Danish government were afraid any reunification could provide trouble in the future. In reality, I personally doubt there would have been any major issues from reunification with South Slesvig, where the historical order is. Danish troops even had an occupation zone in Slesvig-Holstein as part of the British occupation zone, some years later.
0:23 I know this is a joke but just imagine tho, if someone actually suggested this "So guys you see I'm gonna split Germany and let as many countries take lands as possible" "I see...fair take" "The UK, Netherlands, and Denmark gets some land because they are devastated by the war and deserves it" "Good point there. But what about Fra-" "Meanwhile Austria is getting a bit land from Germany" "Huh...weird, but still ok" "And I'm gonna carve out a HUGE chunk for Switzerland, a neutral nation, even larger than it" "Yeah...we can have a more stronger gold reserve country and potential new ally I guess, ok" "Sweden deserves territory too for being a good neutral nation" "But they didn't even fight! Wait, Switzerland's neutral too...but at least the Swiss had a border with the Germans?" "China 1911 deserves the 2nd most out of anyone for being such a helpful nation in the pacific theater!" "Wha-they don't even exist no more! And why do you want an Asian power in Europe to get Germany Bob what're you on??" "BRAZIL GETS EAST PRUSSIA" "Bob I think you forgot to take your pil-" "BRAZIL. GETS. EAST. PRUSSIA."
I think we need to have another treaty conference; Brazilian East Prussia should definitely be a thing. Who could disagree with having a Carnival of the North? I bet even Vladimir Putin would relax and chill out if he could swing to some samba so close to home!
Not so fun fact about the Morgenthou Plan: The plan literally said it would completely erase Germany from the map and kill something like 8 million people. The Allies did not want to make the war, which was as black and white as possible, seem like a gray zone of morality because of how evil both sides were if this plan came to fruition.
@@ginismoja2459 not sure about any books, but I would read through the details of the plan itself, whether it be in a book or online. It really is some interesting stuff.
I don't know, allied forced population transfers AKA genocide made the postwar peace gray enough... Plus you'd think some of the victorious allies would be prosecuted for war crimes, or their illegally-annexed lands returned (Eastern Poland? Karelian Isthmus?)
I did very much enjoy this episode as usual. However, Stalin didn't control Hungary as of the Tehran Conference. I was a little confused by that reference.
I have a follow up question that might make a good video: How did West Berlin fall to the Allies and how did they keep it? How did people and goods from West Berlin move to West Germany and vice versa?
Berlin was the capital of the german empire and later the reunified germany. Basically everyone called dibs on it because its the capital. The reason for the east/west split is described in the video. The western powers/West Germany could use the highways and trains specifically for traffic destined for west berlin. The GDR/the soviets had strong border checks on all people and goods using these ways. The soviets blocked all traffic into west berlin in 1948 in the hope of starving west berlin into "surrendering" to the soviets/GDR. As a reaction the allies supplied west Berlins population through dropping supplies and food via airplane. The (West) Berliners called the airplanes "Rosinenbomber" literally raisin bombers. The Berlin Blockade lasted for nearly a year.
I remember as a kid in elementary school they always had globes in the class rooms and seeing Germany split into 2. Then when I got to middle school it was 1 again.
If you ever do a follow-up with the differences between east and west (or maybe public opinion between them) please have David Hasselhoff behind the berlin wall holding a soon sign.
Suggestions How did the world reacted to the partition of India? How did the world reacted to the birth of the 2 Koreas? How did the world reacted to the Vietnam war? How did the world reacted to the 1979 revolution of Iran? How did the world reacted to Falkland war? How did the world reacted to the Yugoslav war?
@@saldownik No. They offered it later when Russians were the majority there. They didn't offer it to Poland but only Lithuania. Lithuania didn't accept because they would have a Russian minority that would justify an invasion, same as Crimea.
@@mrsupremegascon Considering this time it would have only been those 2 ethnicity and the upper chamber of Hungarian Parliament was made up by the aristocratic elite with close ties to Austria, it actually might have.
@@luukd9554 Same reason the likes of Canada and USA don’t unite together, they see each other as different people and prefer to be independent of each other and not let one or multiple groups judge there own policies.
This is the first time I‘ve heard of this batshit Austria-Hungary-Bavaria Frankenstein-plan. This feels like an episode of a game show: And this is what you _could_ have had…
I have long found the topic of occupied Germany (and the plans behind it) to be quite interesting. I knew Churchill wanted to revive Austria-Hungary, but I didn't know _Bavaria_ would have been included in it! Those planned maps were quite odd! Thanks for the video!
@@francisdec1615 Now that you mention it, an Austrian-ruled Bavaria would make perfect sense! Austria and Bavaria are quite culturally close together. Thanks for the comment!
I kid you not, we studied these conferences so f*cking long in school and I never understood why there were so many on carving up Germany until now. You managed to teach me in 3 minutes what my school couldn’t for 2 years
Nice video , still I think lots of opportunities were missed. You have not discussed division of lands that Soviet have controlled. It was interesting game between East Germany vs Poland vs Soviets on how to establish borders within. In the end Poland got more in west, but Soviet took more from the east (also today's Kaliningrad might ended up in Poland or at least it was debated)
Yeah, he always lacks depth in its videos, I feel like he puts too much effort in the animations and then the answer to the question of the video tends to be the logicam common answer
@@Suksass what you are saying about was offer that made Soviets in in 60' and later (there were already Russians there who would have impact on internal policy) . But Poland was requesting this land already in 1944 before post war migrations. In the end Stalin took it cause he wanted to have another big port on balitc , also baltic states and Belarus were within Soviet Union so there was land connection to Kaliningrad
@@ShEv441 yeah, it's one of the few winter ports that doesn't freeze in winter, letting their Baltic fleet be used in winter times. Same with the port in Crimea which they rented before annexing.
Well, he only had a fourth of Germany, and not even the industrial heart at that. A neutral, demilitarised and economically prosperous territory would have been much better long term because: 1-Instead of territory of dubious strategic value, after a short recovery of its own the german factories could have paid the price of WW2 by rebuilding Eastern Europe. And maybe, just like the Interwar years, give the USSR a new technological edge. 2-It would create an extremely reliable buffer state, and practically eliminate the problematic Capitalist-Communist border. No one would dare to invade Germany to attack the other European block, removing the direct route over the Central European plains. As for the, now halved potential "hot" border, it would be restricted to much more defensible terrain. As in, the Istrian Alps, the Greek mountains, the Caucasian border with Turkey. Considering all capitalist-camp nations in question held numerous communist sympharizers, it would most likely shift the military build up to the Far East. Comfortably far away from the USSR main industrial and population centres. 3-Like the video said, and as Stalin planned for Italy or France, there was also the potential for the local communists to take power. Even if only temporarily through elections, it would have been a major jackpot during the Cold War.
@@electricdazz What? No, that's fact; the lands that are now western Poland were once Germany pre-WW2 and the German population there was exiled to modern German lands. This effectively functioned as an ethnic cleansing. Of course, the Soviets took what was eastern Poland and ethnically cleansed the Poles there too. A bunch of population switches happened after the war ended.
I would love to see a video done on Poland's border changes due to WWII, how they lost an eastern section to the USSR, gained the western section from Germany and whatever they got from the former Prussian territories.
@@danielbishop1863 most of them died. I am talking about eastern Germans. About 2.2 million died. I call it a Genocide dont care what others say. They probably say "deserved"
You should really make a short documentary explaining the difference between the Patreon supporters that get a written mention on the screen and those (including of course james Bisonette) that get a spoken mention.
Imagine if the morgenthau plan worked. There would've been mass starvation across Germany. Also, idk why the allies just gave up so much of East Germany to the Soviets. It should've been put into west Germany at the very least. Everything post WWII is so confusing sometimes.
There would be mass starvation in the whole Europe.The allies wanted to make germany a agriculture focused country and make it regress decades of industrial development and cut down most of the forests. But then they realized this would cost too much,be almost impossible to revert economically as country as educated as it is and Germany is Europe industrial heart without Europe would grown super slow. So in the end it was cheaper to simply let Germany rebuild itself and even give a bit of money to them
As an American myself, this sounds interesting! I'd imagine that Tokyo was strongly against internment, but now that you mention it, I don't know what the rest of the world thought of it! Thanks for the suggestion!
James bissonette actually had an interesting offer for How the post war Germany would look like but the Allies refused because it would’ve made Germany an even richer country
KellyMoneyMaker is the one who refused
@@South_Asian.Fascist-98 also Sky Chappelle
it's "allies", not "allie's". Unless of course you are referring to the propery of someone named allie or you meant to type "allie is"
@@Mokhtar-al-Thaqafi also Spinning Three Plates
@@oliverleino7908 🤓
As a Brazilian myself, I deeply approve - whilst also expressing concern at - the possibility of a Brazilian East Prussia. Thank you for this
As a german I'd like to officially hand east prussia to you guys over.
I'll just hit up Chancellor Scholz but I wouldn't know why he'd oppose this.
Já vejo o novo Império brasileiro se formando da Prússia Oriental a Portugal. Viva Brasil! 🇧🇷
On brand for Brazil's actual history of "Look at me! I'm the Portuguese Kingdom now!"
But you have to figure out yourself what to do with the Russian population.
As a German: You are welcome to take over East Prussia any time you want, as long as you introduce Brazilian carneval tradition!
There is a mistake at 0:43, Stalin did NOT control Hungary at the time of the Tehran conference in late 1943. The Eastern Front was stable around western Ukraine at that time. Most of Hungary only came under Soviet control at the very end of 1944, and parts of it remained Axis until early 1945.
Maybe he refers that it was already agreed between the allies and the soviets that hungary would be under soviet sphere of influence at that point ¿?
@@lenchstudios maybe
@@lenchstudios I don't know that there were any agreements by late 1943, that came more at Yalta in February 1945. But there was definitely a de facto impression that the Soviets would get to Hungary first.
Exactly what i thought
@@Transilvanian90 source: are you hungarian?
I love how Churchill just comes in and is like: Guys hear me out... Austria-Hungary.. Let's bring it back!
Next how do you feel about bringing back the Kingdom of two Sicily?
That could be a better plan…
It would have been better than Irl, because they wouldn’t be under soviet occupation.
Austria-Hungary was as recent to people in 1945 as Yugoslavia is to people now. A lot of people have fond memories and want to bring it back.
@@yeetspageet6707 thank god it became soviet and not a shit empire that would get partitioned further
The damaged wall in what was presumably Truman's White House is a neat reference to the massive renovation of said mansion during his administration which saw it completely gutted and rebuilt internally, leaving only the outside facade as original. And yeah, it was basically falling apart to the extent that it was structurally unsound.
Time stamp?
The contractor wanted to put a big sign advertising his company was renovating the White House. Truman said hell no...
@@ResistTheGreatReplacementEU 2:38 - 2:40 roughly.
Another little-known fact: It was during those renovations that a Puerto Rican nationalist tried to kill Truman. Fortunately, Truman was not present at the time.
@@jeffbenton6183 oh that's Truman's new figure? I thought it was some dude
Something I'd read about Morgenthau's plan for division - one of the main reasons it was unpopular overall was because by getting rid of Germany's industrial strength altogether and forcing it to be a purely agrarian state (presumably forever), it probably would have caused one of the most horrific mass starvations in history (with an estimated 25 million deaths), mostly because of how it would have been structured for the German people. Also, it probably would have caused the people in the 2 Germany's to build up again as part of another uber-nationalist and probably fascist force, spiraling back to how everything started. Not to mention it would not be a very good look on the Allies, as this would basically shatter the idea that the Allies were the "good guys" in the war.
Morgenthau's plan was eventually published in the US in 1944, and the Nazi government used it as a tool to justify continuing the war.
I agree, it would have come across as a vengeance peace, a genocide for a genocide. Too few today realize just how CRITICAL winning the peace is. You can crush the enemy's armies, destroy their navies, reduce their cities to rubble, but if you don't take away their desire for revenge or uprising, you'll just create an endless cycle of violence. This is why we had to make peace with the Germans and Japanese at least mostly the way we did. Otherwise, World War III, World War IV, etc. When the western powers did the Berlin Airlift, many Germans literally were in tears, they couldn't believe a former enemy would care about them enough to save their lives from starvation or freezing. Truly one of the greatest displays of humanity America and Britain ever did, and it left an impact for generations.
I see somebody watched Cody's video on it.
@@Hawkatana E-yup.
I read that information somewhere too
Nothing says being mature than doing the same vengeful thing that led them to this very war in the first place. Vlad Tepes is more mature than the guy who thinks this is a great plan when he let go of his anger against Hungary just to have help retaking Wallachia...
James Bissonette and Kelley Moneymaker, Sky Chappelle, Porsche Wulf, Jerry Lambden, Jordan Longley, Avin Stolter, Mark, Wyan Hockey, Spencer Lightfoot, Rod DeMartin, Words About Books Podcast, and all the rest of those wonderful patrons decided how Germany would be divided.
I can hear every name in his voice…
Best division
No Spinning Three Plates?
Fairly certain it was Bissonette and Moneymaker mainly
@@LMB222 Spinning Tree Plates is the best patreon name imo
*Correction:* 0:40 The Soviets weren't in control of Hungary in late 1943. They crossed into its borders only a year later, in September 1944.
Thanks
Thx I was confused lol
And fully occupied it in April 4th 1945
@@bazsamester no that is actually not true, the soviets still fought on hungarian soil in april 4th, but the soviet generals told stalin they already occupied all of it. Funny thing is that under communism april 4th was still a national holiday until 1989
Imagine if Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin were so drunk in the Yalta Conference that they acccidently pulled up the HRE borders for Germany
Now, that's a.h.
So Germany would have massively expaned and get an emperor back. Also Czechia, Luxembourg, Belgium, Lichtenstein,Switzerland and Luxembourg would suddenly stop existing as souveraign states. Most of eastern France (Burgundy was part of the HRE before their duke died and they got split between Habsburgs and France) and all of northern Italy would also de jure suddenly be ruled by Vienna.
DeGaulle would have propably died of a heart attack from shock immediatly and Poland would be on suicide watch. Northern Italy would have propably celebrated finally beeing rid of "useless" southern Italy. The dutch and belgiums would just think how to make the most profit out of the situation while Luxembourg and Lichtenstein would celebrate beeing the only "old school original members" of the original HRE now beeing back at the way "things used to be". Switzerland would get back their mercenary tradition to suppl soldiers for the new HRE civil wars sure to come.
@@noobster4779 I believe he meant splitting Germany into hundreds of tiny states, since the HRE was very decentralized with lots of different independent states within it.
That would be genius
@@connorhawthorne541 I know that, I life in a region that was until 1947 rather literally still a former tiny dutchy from the HRE times and didnt change form signifocantly in like 500 years, even managing to remain a "federal state" during the german empire and weimar republic :D
In 1947 the britosh (may their tea tase like shit for this crime) forced us to decide between the new german federal states of Lower Saxony or Northrhine-Westphalia. The end of centuries of independence (btw or former dukes family still lifes in their castle in the middle of the dutchys capital. Nothung changes in out little peasent region I guess :D)
0:23 wow, I thought that after what happened the last time the Allies wouldn’t be as strict as in WW1, vanishing Prussia to Brazil is outright inhumane
The terms on Germany after WW2 were a lot more severe than in Versailles. It's a myth that the allies were lenient to avoid a repeat of WW2. In fact Versailles was a very lenient treaty all things considered.
Can’t forget about that time the RoC annexed a big chunk of a central European territory
@@nutyyyy Yep, WW2 was basically wiping out Germany from the map, you can't be harsher than that.
As a Dane, gotta say, that border look mighty sexy.
yes
2:25 And this explains why Bremen is a federal state.
Berlin and Hamburg are federal states, but they are the 1st and 2nd largest cities in Germany. Bremen is the only the 11th largest. But the Americans wanted their own port instead of using a British one, and someone really messed up not integrating Bremen into Niedersachsen when the new states were formed.
For the big political parties it's perfect to have a urban state for the reds and a rural one for the blacks.
@@loveroffunnyy Red is the Social Democrats, Black the Conservatives.
It's worth remembering that the newly created Federal Republic of Germany was not under any obligation to follow the boundaries of the former western occupation zones. Baden, Wurttemberg and Hohenzollern in the southwest were divided between the French and US zones, and each side initially organized their own states in the region (the French 2, the Americans just one). But these were amalgamated into the current-day state of Baden-Wurttemberg soon after the FRG was proclaimed. So while the US occupation explains why Bremen started out as a state, it wouldn't have been one for long had it not been for its history of statehood going back to the Middle Ages. Lubeck, with an even smaller population than Bremen and a similar history, tried unsuccessfully to have its own statehood restored under the FRG (the Nazis annexed it to Schleswig-Holstein in 1937).
@@loveroffunnyy Red = SPD (Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands / Social Democratic Party of Germany) and Black = CDU (Social Democratic Party of Germany / Christian Democratic Union of Germany). They were the two major political parties in Germany. SPD was often winning in cities and CDU in rural areas.
Bremen being a Free City is cool af. The real mess up is not making Lubeck into one again.
The Morgenthau plan did no just involve splitting up Germany in several parts, but also dismantling its industry almost entirely. The first part didn't happen as such, but the second part did become official US policy in their occupation zone and some factories were indeed closed.
Pretty soon it was realized by the commander of the US occupation forces that such a policy would drive the Germans into the hands of the Soviets and that in any case Germany's industrial base could not be missed for the ongoing reconstruction of Western Europe. It nevertheless took those in Washington several years to change their official position and go all out to restore German economic power. The rest is Wirtschaftswunder.
Whilst that sounds plausible, Decisions at nationstate level, are purely sellfish.The US rejecting that plan, was purely because they wanted as many markets as possible, to sell their products in future. They knew the dollar was goin to dominate, with the European Powers now impoverishhed so they needed a Germany, with citizen able to buy goods
A quote I read somewhere was "given the choice between capitalism on 1000 calories a day or communism on 1500, there isn't really a choice." And was apparently one of the major reasons the Morgenthau plan was dropped.
I think the biggest problem with the Morgenthau plan is that it treats the Germans as if they are a problematic people inherently and thus must have their quality of life and ability to do damage reduced. My opinion is that it overlooked the role of culture. Instead of impoverishing or punishing Germany, what I would have wanted to do is get rid of the idea of Germany. Just teach them all to speak some other language, rename the cities to non-German names, and basically stamp out the German culture and language altogether, eventually merging pieces of German land into surrounding countries. That is to say, let the people live and the factories stay up, but let them know that this whole "Germany" thing is done and they are required to move on. The thing I find annoying about the past ways of dealing with Germans is that what they always served to do is single out the Germans as a distinctive people that have to continue to exist in order to be punished and held them accountable in ways that made them very aware of their German identity. When it was really that German identity itself that was the whole problem.
@@jeremyandrews3292 I guess compared to Morgenthau's plan of genocide through starvation, cultural genocide seems like an okay idea.
@@jeremyandrews3292 You'd be surprised, but in some way this is actually what happened. Not the banning of German language or culture as such, however Prussia, the largest German constituent state, was quite deliberately wiped out as a political and cultural entity. Many, and especially the Soviets, saw Prussia as the source of German militarism that needed to be suppressed in order to guarantee long term peace. And so its territory was redistributed and remembering its achievements in any positive light was strongly discouraged.
good ideas for a new video:
- why did Vietnam invade Cambodia in the aftermath of the Vietnam War and the fall of the Khmer Rouge?
- How and why did Germany colonize Samoa and New Guinea?
- Why does Guatemala claim ownership of Belize?
- Why did Romania not leave the Warsaw Pact after the invasion of Czechoslovakia, similar to what Albania did?
- Why did Italy want the Dodecanese in the aftermath of the Italo-Turkish War?
- Why did Sikkim join India in 1975 instead of Nepal, Bhutan, or China?
- How were the borders of the Soviet Republics drawn?
(p.s I have a million more of these)
How did the American mafia in NYC react to 9/11?
- why did Vietnam invade Cambodia in the aftermath of the Vietnam War and the fall of the Khmer Rouge?
pol pot did way too much trolling
@@passtheapplejuice2619agreed, it was pretty obvious. Cambodia got too big for its britches and picked a fight they’d never win
Giving Königsberg to Brazil is the best decision in the history of decisions, maybe ever
Królewiec*
*Montanha do Rei
Memel de Janeiro
Western Greater Lithuania
*tsargrad 2: this time it’s personal
The specifics involved dividing the sectors up on the basis of pre-Nazi political boundaries. This resulted in some extra-territorial bits of West Berlin outside the main bit because they used the 1928 Berlin city boundaries for dividing that place up and some estates in what is now Brandenburg were in Berlin. The British swapped half of Staaken in return for the Soviet-controlled bit of the Gatow airfield.
The Americans didn't have a port in their sector, so the British let them have Bremerhaven for their own use. The French didn't need a port - because land border.
Stalin had back the bits of land that had been allocated to Russia by Lord Curzon and lost to Poland in the Polish-Soviet War. He'd unilaterally grabbed something pretty much on those lines and the Western Allies ultimately let him have it. The northern half of East Prussia, including what is now Kaliningrad, was desired by Stalin because of that old Russian favourite:
*WARM WATER PORT!*
To compensate Poland for that loss, they yoinked everything off Germany east of the Oder-Neisse Line. Which Neisse took some discussion. To give the Poles Stettin/Szczecin, the border was then plonked slap bang down the middle of the island of Usedom. Today, it's the one place you can freely walk between Germany and Poland without getting wet or crossing a bridge, forming the setting of a German crime drama as well.
The island of Usedom was given a use. Fitting.
Poland gained that land from Germany to extend its borders westwards,but at the same time it had land taken from it on its eastern borders and handed to Belarus and Ukraine in the Soviet Union,including the city of Lviv/Lvov. So in essence Poland shifted west slightly from where it used to be!
I found this comment quite informative! I was wondering why Poland was given much of the former German lands. Also, didn't know the UK traded parts of Staaken for part of an airfield! Thanks for the info!
@@rjjcms1 Polish borders are more close now to those from year 1000.
Poland was moving east from 1138 to 1384.
At the same time Germans were stealing Polish, Pomeranian, Czech, Lusatian, Veneti and Obotrite lands.
Germans were building Marches, settling Germans and performing Germanization process on West Slavic land since 800.
Finally, Germans grabbed All West Slavic land up to Curzon line in 1939. And after that Germans wanted even more...
And Poland was moved back west after WW2.
After WW2, Poland and Czechia were given back only some land that were stolen by Germans from West Slaves for 1200 years.
Lusatia was Czech or Polish for long time and stayed after WW2 on German side of the border anyway. And Lusatians wanted after WW2 to be in Czechoslovakia or Poland, but Stalin did not agree.
Veleti and Obotrites (West Slaves) territories should also be in Poland. Veleti and Obotrites were speaking language similar the most to Polish and Kashubian/Pomeranian.
The east German border should not be on Oder and Lusatian Neisse, but on Elbe river.
@@robertab929 Youre crazy, who gives a damn where poles or germans lived 800 years ago. By setting the new border to the Oder river hundreds of thousands of germans had to forcibly be resettled westward and many even died while scarcely any poles lived in those regions, so why move the border even more west, wheres the sense in that.
The big note about the Churchill plan was that the Hapsburg heir was a major part of it. He worked with saving Jewish lives and wanted to restore Austria Hungary as some sort of power
You mean blessed k.u.k Karl?
Damn, them Habsburgs never end their dream of returning AH. It ain't gonna happen. From an Gavrilo Princip Nation member.
@@MarkoFTW so you're proud of serbia having caused the second worst world war so far?
@@deutschermichel5807 They didn't "cause" it. Europe was ready for war, with the tension like the seconds before the Olympic 100m final. Everyone was waiting for an excuse to start. The assassination was "just" the perfect excuse, delivered on a silver plate.
@@deutschermichel5807 I am proud of our willingness to be free and to fight for our freedom regardless of what enemy is in front of us, and how many times do we need to fight against said enemy.
Interesting video once again! I find these alternative plans very interesting. In the Kaufman plan (Germany Must Perish!) my country (the Netherlands) would border Poland!
Great video on Kosovo!
Congrats!!! Hahaha
What the fuck I just read up about it and now I know where the Attack on Titan author got his inspiration from. Never thought anyone would have actually had such a crazy idea.
Another German state call the Netherlands.
1:33 I just love the news papers every time
I was kind of disappointed you didnt cover why France got their zone and the UK got their zone.
Especially when the UK was against occupation.
Or even the american enclaves north of Hamburg and why they existed.
Yeah, video is too short
Especially the way France used to sneak into the occupying powers while the US were all on relegating it to the lower rank of great powers.
Darn de Gaulle, always where you don't expect him.
And why Poland got the rests of Prussia and Ermland-Masuren as well.
@@dinasov9 true they did the least and got the most i know it was russia who pushed it but would a polish pre war state not be better since you get all the eats german resources anyway
France got their zone because french army was able to provide 1.6 million soldiers by late 1944 early 1945 to invade Germany on the west front while UK provide 1 million, Canada 1.1 million and Poland 200 000 (US provide 4.5 million).
1:58 The flag of South Germany:
Black & White stands for Prussia, a state in North Germany.
Red stands for the Hanseatic Union, a union of port cities in North Germany.
Ironic! Thanks for noting it!
Black, red and white stand for imperial Germany 1871-1918
It’s interesting how unplanned the division of Germany was. I got the impression that the zones were formally agreed upon before Germany was occupied. Then again, many things in history are unplanned…
There is nothing more permanent than a temporary solution.
@@danielbishop1863 Funny enough Germany proved that. How long did the 1000 year Reich last? 12 years.
How long did the Federal Republic of Germany (which was a 100% temporary solution for just a few years) last? 73 years and there is more to come.
@@danielbishop1863 "I'll deal with it later."
"Eh, was good enough then, good enough now."
1:23 The most important part of any plan for peace, the rest is easy by comparison.
As a brazillian, I am actually in favour of Brazil getting Kaliningrad/Königsberg
🤦🏻♂️
Kinda to late for that.
As a german, i would support that.
Russia isn't gonna give Brazil the Konigsberg/Kaliningrad territory, lol. If they ever wanted rid of it they'd either try and pawn it off on Poland or give it back to it's rightful owner, Germany. I doubt either Poland or Germany would want a territory full of Russians becoming part of their territories though so yeah...but it's unlikely to leave Russian hands anytime soon anyway. (Side note but you should look up Konigsberg videos from before World War 2. It was truly a marvelous city and it is a shame it was so thoroughly annihilated and then rebuild with garbage Soviet architecture.)
Better Brazilian than Russian...I suppose.
I love the detail of Mustafa Kemal saying "Fight me" at 0:58 (despite being dead by then) as in February 23, 1945 Turkey declared war on Germany... right before the German surrender in May.
That was Mustafa Kemal, right? I couldn't be sure :) He had already died in 1938 and it was his successor Ismet Inonu's endeavour to keep TR out of the war until....well, Feb'45 :):) The speculation about whether Ataturk himself would have joined the war earlier (early enough to make a difference) continues.
"The Americans were now very pro-dismemberment" is definitely a quote I will be taking out of context, thank you.
I'll use it if Congress ever decides to codify Roe v. Wade.
It’s usually what happens when the US get involved: Korea, Cyprus, Vietnam, Palestine….
Real Saudi hours
It’s obvious. James Bissonette was the one who divided Germany.
In collaboration with Kelly Moneymaker
And with the support of Izzy and Moe
Isn't it a bit odd that Castañeda disappeared? Coincidence? I think not!
Nah
@@der.Schtefan he got left out like france and czechoslovakia
Ah yes the good old "winging it" tactic, its also one of my favorite tactics during exams, but its great that even nations with people with their whole lives depend on also uses this tactic
Always a pleasure getting a notification from History Matters
Why was Berlin divided in pretty much the same way; in quarters?
If you can do a deep (3 min) dive into that, as well, that would be outstanding!
The same reason, as why Vienna was split into different zones.
They all wanted to have some influce of the most important city in Germany/Austria.
@@TheJan1101 I'm sure there's more than that, hence my suggestion. 👍
@ThelastTiger Did you know that hamburgers are actually called so because of Hamburg?
Done based on old borough boundaries too, BTW. The boundaries are less visible now due to many boroughs merging in 2001 to save money; 21 boroughs became 11.
the allies needed an escape plan for their berliner nazi friends who would’ve under total soviet control unless they got their feet into Berlin itself? splitting the country east and west and also splitting berlin, clearly in the east, is a bit strange
I recall that you (or another RUclipsr, I forget) made the grave sin of excluding Thuringia from East Germany. You did not do that this time around. Congrats! Great, accurate maps all around. :D
Im happy we live in a world where this one partition happened, all of the other options were basically *painful* and plain bad
most people on this channel also paradoxically say the UK should of partitioned the middle east on ethnic and sectarian lines.
Except Prussia would still be a thing.
The historical version was still really nonsensical
@@Septimus_ii If think a unified germany with a constitution stating that it has to be neutral economicaly and militarily towars USSR and USA. That way it would be a buffer zone and nobody would feel excluded because it would have had a strong socialist sector aligned to the ussr and a strong conservative/liberal one favouring USA.
@@Septimus_ii I think it looks great
I'm really surprised you haven't covered the partition of Austria and Vienna, and the subsequent re-establishment of Austria. Would be interesting to compare/contrast what occupation looked like in the 2 countries.
Henry morganthau's plan was rejected primarily because it would mean that Germany would shift from being an industrial country to an agrarian one, wich would also mean it would have to find a way to feed its extremely large population with food grown onto the same fields the allies had just burned down. This would in turn lead to a giant famine in both Germanies wich would in turn lead to starvation migration/immigration and an overall humanitarian crisis, (if you ask me perfect setting grounds for another world war once again started by a very upset and hungry Germany). Also the soviets weren't just going to give up Berlin and the allies wanted to avoid war with the red giant at all costs.
Now that you mention it, no wonder Morganthau was utterly rejected! Thanks for the information!
The visual details in this are astounding
0:29 the background 😂
The last straw that forced the split was the new currency for the three Western sectors introduced in 1948. Right up until the Euro replaced the DM, you could still find 1948 10 Pfennig pieces in circulation that said “Bank of the German lands” instead of “Federal Republic of Germany”. Most successful currency reform of all time.
Yes I myself have one or two of those saying „Bank deutscher Länder“.
@@deutschermichel5807 As an American visiting Germany it was cool to find those in change and know that I was holding in my hand a humble coin that had been minted in the United States in the hope of getting Germany moving again, and that coin had then gone on to witness the economic and political transformation of Germany from devastated dictatorship to prosperous free democracy. Made me proud to be an American that we had a part in that.
0:10 kinda looks like the British for Kaliningrad
Video idea: Why are there 2 Galicias? (The one in Spain and the one in Poland and Ukraine)
Because Habsburgs. I live in the Polish one. Also good chunks of Western Ukraine now are also Galicia.
It was Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria in Polish.
I believe it's latinization of Halych and Volodymyr (Older names for those lands). H often turns to G, so you'd end up with something sounding like "Galic and Lodomer"
@@jannegrey593 I don't think you understood the question. There are two separate regions in Europe called Galicia. One is where you described it and the other is in north-western Spain. If I remember correctly, the reason for that is simply that both regions where settled by Celts in antiquity and the Romans referred to them as Gauls. Therefore they are both called Galicia.
@@3st3st77 Ruś Halicka - that's how it was called. I think that the name Galicia, came from it sounding very similarly to Austrian Habsurgs - who wanted to remind everyone that they also were in power in Spain, so the name was changed to Galicja (Polish spelling). I don't know if it comes from Celts (if so, then Romans weren't exactly super accurate here, but they were never as far as Polish Galicia), that could make interesting episode, but in the end it simply sounded similar to people that partitioned Poland. So they changed it to sound exactly like the region they had claim on. Perhaps to enhance their own claim on this region. Partitioning of Poland was a big deal and it wasn't called Galicja, before partitions. But had a similar sounding name.
The Galicia that is in Western Ukraine is how the Habsburgs latinised the ukrainian name of the region (Halychyna). When they partitioned the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Austria justified its claims by the fact that some hungarian king was a temporary regent while the Ruthenian King Danylo Romanovych was a child, and therefore they named the whole territory they took Galicia, despite the polish half of those territories never being under Ruthenian rule. When it comes to the spanish Galicia, idk.
@@Ivan-qf1lj Yup
i keep binge watching all of his videos, they're just so good
Very good video. Would be interested to see a video about Austria during the cold war, and how they ended up not staying divided.
I would like to know more about how the German people reacted to this. I know there was actually a lot of info on how they reacted, specifically to the new border with Poland
They were too busy living in refugee camps and seeking medical help from being raped by the Soviets
As we would mainly be talking about East Germans
?
They were mostly pretty happy, that the war was over and they could... You know... Get some food on the table again, although it would still take years for the germans to return to their pre-war cousine. Carving Germany up like Morgenthau intended would probable have led to some mire protests in Germany, but as this never went into effect most germans never learned of the plan or considered it to be a possible option.
The ones in Poland reacted to this by being rounded up and deported out of what suddenly wasn't their home anymore.
@@MrTohawk Wrong. Those nazi-lovers were actually quite happy that Polish authorities (unlike Russian army) let them survive and get the f..k back to present-day Germany.
Thank you! Can you perhaps do a video explaining how Berlin became an enclave of West Germany in the middle of East Germany?
Weird that Paraguay didn't get to occupy a zone in Germany, since only their entry to the war made german defeat feasible.
As a paraguayan, even though i hate brazil but live in it myself i believe we deserved atleast a puppet
LOL good joke
@@Monkofthecaribbean its called irony but eh whatever
@@realdragao6367 Oh lol ud be surprised how many ppl would be serious about that tho
Brazilian East Prussia would be the most based occupation mandate in world history
Not really
@@ItsLunaRegina still better than polish
@@gamerdrache6076 no
Least*
@@realdragao6367 it is because it never was a bit polish
This enraged the Allies, which punished Germany severely.
Again
@@ecurewitzis a reference to oversimplified
@@diegoyqulki ok
@@ecurewitz This enraged the Hitler father,which punished Hitler severely 🤣
A sidenote:
The eastern parts of Germany were ceded to Poland because the Soviets had just taken the eastern part of Poland, and had to put the excess Polish people somewhere(there's probably more to talk into this subject, but it's a rabbit hole). As for the germans, they were exiled to what would become Germany proper.
Worth adding that it wasn't some random German lands to appease us and have a place for new homes for Poles from former eastern Poland and now USSR, but in medieval period it was Polish. Communist government used that in their propaganda to portray themselves as patriots who claim rightfully Polish land
In XIIIth century Mongols invaded Poland and destroyed it. Germans began to settle in Pomerania and Silesia and rebuild them. After some time, these lands peacefully germanized. In 1945 they were as Polish as Andalusia Arabic
Eastern Poland was occupied Belarus and Ukrainian lands from the 1920s invasion.
@@polishedpebble4111 insanity, Belarus was never a thing and Ukraine was just a couple year post Russian Empire State.. I’m just an American history nerd w/ only Croatian Slavic background so no bias on it I think lo
There actually was a short-lived Belarusian Democratic Republic in 1918-19. Its flag (white-red-white horizontal stripes) is still used today by its government-in-exile and protestors against Lukashenko.
@@polishedpebble4111 The situation is more complex than that. First of all, what is today Belarus had not been ethnically 'belarussian' until after WW2, and was inhabited by many Poles.
Second of all, Belarus has a very weak national identity, being a sort of 'polonised Russia', it tended to just do what the big brothers did.
As for Ukraine, just like Belarus it had a large Polish minority until WW2 ended, and they were not 'occupied', but had an understanding with Pilsudski that he'd give them a free Ukraine after liberating it from the USSR, which he never managed.
Fortunately not Churchill
It honestly made a lot of sense from a British perspective. Creating 2 German states of equal power, with the new one aligned to the west. Good example of dividing the European enemy to maintain a balance of power
Nicely explained.
0:23 Hoi4 looking peace deal
I appreciate learning history, thank you.
0:10 “How many dictators does it take to turn an empire into a Union of ruinous states? It’s a disgrace what you did to your own people.” Rasputin
"Your daddy beat you like a dog and now you're evil."
@@maxthecharacter1296 “You’re from Georgia, Sweet Georgia and the history books unfold ya.”
Saying was with the occupation zones: Britain got the harbors, France got the industry, America got the scenery.
During hot deep war, the allies considered forcing a defeated Germany to revert an agrarian subsistence state with little or no industry. Presently they realized a rebuilt strengthened Europe would need Germany to rebuild and recover, too.
The hypothetical Prussia to Brazil pipeline made me feel an emotion I'm not legally allowed to feel
texas vore
*VIDEO SUGGESTION:*
How did America react to The German invasion of Poland in 1939? Did they sanction them or anything like that?
America had a large isolationist movement; the America First movement was closely aligned with the pro-Nazi German American Bund and the Republican Party. Eventually in 1939, President Franklin D Roosevelt was able to push Lend-Lease loans to Great Britain arguing the need to support Great Britain and the danger to US allies after the Soviet Union signed a non-aggression pact with Germany dividing Poland. The United States did not declare war on Germany until 1942, shortly after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and Germany agreed to support Japan.
I love the flower field being used for "Winging it" instead of how it's normally been used. lol
Another example of the whole thing being ad hoc is that the current German constitution is called the "Basic Law" because it was intended to be a temporary regime pending the writing of a new constitution for a unified Germany. Then it worked well enough that everyone just decided to keep it.
Are you suggesting police and law in Germany have a third world stature, or, waht do you wish to say?
I like ur first “this example” and there is no reason, and I’m especially not biased as a Dane, I just like it for some reason.
Edit: NM I like the last “this” the best China and Brazil can get parts of Germany, it seems fair and fine.
The one we got was probably for the best (if it had to be divided). But as a fellow Dane I agree that the second one definitely had the right idea about where the Danish border should be
@@nicolajrath1570 huh (im north german)
After the war ended there was in fact a large majority south of the border petitioning to be reunified with Denmark. The British offered as much of Slesvig as Denmark wanted but the Danish government were afraid any reunification could provide trouble in the future. In reality, I personally doubt there would have been any major issues from reunification with South Slesvig, where the historical order is. Danish troops even had an occupation zone in Slesvig-Holstein as part of the British occupation zone, some years later.
@@KarimTheilgaard huh
@@KarimTheilgaard you sure about that majority bud? Uhm.... I dont know where you getting those stats from.
I love 1:28 just cause of Stalins version of dividing Germany lmao
Very interesting. Thanks again for another great video!!
0:23 I know this is a joke but just imagine tho, if someone actually suggested this
"So guys you see I'm gonna split Germany and let as many countries take lands as possible"
"I see...fair take"
"The UK, Netherlands, and Denmark gets some land because they are devastated by the war and deserves it"
"Good point there. But what about Fra-"
"Meanwhile Austria is getting a bit land from Germany"
"Huh...weird, but still ok"
"And I'm gonna carve out a HUGE chunk for Switzerland, a neutral nation, even larger than it"
"Yeah...we can have a more stronger gold reserve country and potential new ally I guess, ok"
"Sweden deserves territory too for being a good neutral nation"
"But they didn't even fight! Wait, Switzerland's neutral too...but at least the Swiss had a border with the Germans?"
"China 1911 deserves the 2nd most out of anyone for being such a helpful nation in the pacific theater!"
"Wha-they don't even exist no more! And why do you want an Asian power in Europe to get Germany Bob what're you on??"
"BRAZIL GETS EAST PRUSSIA"
"Bob I think you forgot to take your pil-"
"BRAZIL. GETS. EAST. PRUSSIA."
I think we need to have another treaty conference; Brazilian East Prussia should definitely be a thing. Who could disagree with having a Carnival of the North? I bet even Vladimir Putin would relax and chill out if he could swing to some samba so close to home!
In Europe we already do Carnivale
Morgetheau plan is absolutely ludicrous
Not so fun fact about the Morgenthou Plan:
The plan literally said it would completely erase Germany from the map and kill something like 8 million people. The Allies did not want to make the war, which was as black and white as possible, seem like a gray zone of morality because of how evil both sides were if this plan came to fruition.
Interesting, do you have any recommended literature on the topic of the Morgenthau Plan?
@@ginismoja2459 not sure about any books, but I would read through the details of the plan itself, whether it be in a book or online. It really is some interesting stuff.
"Completely erase"?! The Allies made the right decision in _not_ implementing this plan!
I don't know, allied forced population transfers AKA genocide made the postwar peace gray enough...
Plus you'd think some of the victorious allies would be prosecuted for war crimes, or their illegally-annexed lands returned (Eastern Poland? Karelian Isthmus?)
Sounds like a great brewing pot of plight for German nationalism to rise again. Not the smartest plan.
This format should be mandatory on all classrooms for every single topic.
Best quick history videos 💯🔥💯
I did very much enjoy this episode as usual. However, Stalin didn't control Hungary as of the Tehran Conference. I was a little confused by that reference.
2:03 Franklin “Kelly Moneymaker” Roosevelt offering Churchill money
I have a follow up question that might make a good video: How did West Berlin fall to the Allies and how did they keep it? How did people and goods from West Berlin move to West Germany and vice versa?
Berlin was the capital of the german empire and later the reunified germany. Basically everyone called dibs on it because its the capital. The reason for the east/west split is described in the video. The western powers/West Germany could use the highways and trains specifically for traffic destined for west berlin. The GDR/the soviets had strong border checks on all people and goods using these ways. The soviets blocked all traffic into west berlin in 1948 in the hope of starving west berlin into "surrendering" to the soviets/GDR.
As a reaction the allies supplied west Berlins population through dropping supplies and food via airplane. The (West) Berliners called the airplanes "Rosinenbomber" literally raisin bombers. The Berlin Blockade lasted for nearly a year.
I love your channel keep up the great stuff!!!
0:23
Brazilian Königsberg is probably either the most blessed or most cursed thing I've seen in a map (apart from Belgium)
Germany wouldn't have been divided if they were sponsored by James Bissonette
I remember as a kid in elementary school they always had globes in the class rooms and seeing Germany split into 2. Then when I got to middle school it was 1 again.
What programme / software do you use to draw your maps?
your mom
@@potatogod975 you're 10 and loves minecraft
@@NoVisionGuy nah im ur dad who left to get milk
@@potatogod975 not funny
@@freeplex589 didn't laugh
Always got to love the other silly little headlines on the newspaper segments.
If you ever do a follow-up with the differences between east and west (or maybe public opinion between them) please have David Hasselhoff behind the berlin wall holding a soon sign.
Suggestions
How did the world reacted to the partition of India?
How did the world reacted to the birth of the 2 Koreas?
How did the world reacted to the Vietnam war?
How did the world reacted to the 1979 revolution of Iran?
How did the world reacted to Falkland war?
How did the world reacted to the Yugoslav war?
*how did the world react (…)
The 2 Crimes:
1. They did not restore Austria-Hungary.
2. They gave Königsberg to the Russians.
I've heard that Ruskies offered Konigsberg to Poland and Lithuania first.
Austria-Hungary would have never worked.
I agree for Königsberg.
@@mrsupremegascon but an austria-bavaria
@@saldownik No. They offered it later when Russians were the majority there. They didn't offer it to Poland but only Lithuania. Lithuania didn't accept because they would have a Russian minority that would justify an invasion, same as Crimea.
@@mrsupremegascon Considering this time it would have only been those 2 ethnicity and the upper chamber of Hungarian Parliament was made up by the aristocratic elite with close ties to Austria, it actually might have.
An idea for a video: Why are there so many independent Oceania states?
Because no island wanted to ruled by another. Especially after Britain.
@@Toonrick12 not by eachother no, but why not together? You'd imagine together theyd be stronger
@@luukd9554 Same reason the likes of Canada and USA don’t unite together, they see each other as different people and prefer to be independent of each other and not let one or multiple groups judge there own policies.
0:22
Brazilian Prussia is something I wasn't expecting lol
That Pravda newspaper was hilarious!
In a Nutshell:
The Allies pushed the Germans back massively and then stared at the wreck that was Germany and said "...now what?"
(russia and usa)
This is the first time I‘ve heard of this batshit Austria-Hungary-Bavaria Frankenstein-plan. This feels like an episode of a game show: And this is what you _could_ have had…
I have long found the topic of occupied Germany (and the plans behind it) to be quite interesting. I knew Churchill wanted to revive Austria-Hungary, but I didn't know _Bavaria_ would have been included in it! Those planned maps were quite odd! Thanks for the video!
Austrians are originally Bavarians. They still have about the same mentality, dialect and religion.
@@francisdec1615 Now that you mention it, an Austrian-ruled Bavaria would make perfect sense! Austria and Bavaria are quite culturally close together. Thanks for the comment!
I kid you not, we studied these conferences so f*cking long in school and I never understood why there were so many on carving up Germany until now. You managed to teach me in 3 minutes what my school couldn’t for 2 years
0:56 I cracked up when I saw Ataturk saying 'Fight me'
Nice video , still I think lots of opportunities were missed. You have not discussed division of lands that Soviet have controlled. It was interesting game between East Germany vs Poland vs Soviets on how to establish borders within. In the end Poland got more in west, but Soviet took more from the east (also today's Kaliningrad might ended up in Poland or at least it was debated)
Yeah, he always lacks depth in its videos, I feel like he puts too much effort in the animations and then the answer to the question of the video tends to be the logicam common answer
Kaliningrad was offered to both Poland and Lithuania. Nether wanted territory chalk full of Russians.
@@Suksass what you are saying about was offer that made Soviets in in 60' and later (there were already Russians there who would have impact on internal policy) . But Poland was requesting this land already in 1944 before post war migrations. In the end Stalin took it cause he wanted to have another big port on balitc , also baltic states and Belarus were within Soviet Union so there was land connection to Kaliningrad
@@ShEv441 yeah, it's one of the few winter ports that doesn't freeze in winter, letting their Baltic fleet be used in winter times. Same with the port in Crimea which they rented before annexing.
hearing that Stalin opposed dividing Germany was really shocking, especially considering how much the Soviet Union lost due to the Germans
Their plan is to make Germany a big and slightly deindustrialized Switzerland. Neutral in every way...
Well he be fine with it United under a communist government as he has with a good amount of Eastern Europe.
Well, he only had a fourth of Germany, and not even the industrial heart at that. A neutral, demilitarised and economically prosperous territory would have been much better long term because:
1-Instead of territory of dubious strategic value, after a short recovery of its own the german factories could have paid the price of WW2 by rebuilding Eastern Europe. And maybe, just like the Interwar years, give the USSR a new technological edge.
2-It would create an extremely reliable buffer state, and practically eliminate the problematic Capitalist-Communist border. No one would dare to invade Germany to attack the other European block, removing the direct route over the Central European plains. As for the, now halved potential "hot" border, it would be restricted to much more defensible terrain. As in, the Istrian Alps, the Greek mountains, the Caucasian border with Turkey. Considering all capitalist-camp nations in question held numerous communist sympharizers, it would most likely shift the military build up to the Far East. Comfortably far away from the USSR main industrial and population centres.
3-Like the video said, and as Stalin planned for Italy or France, there was also the potential for the local communists to take power. Even if only temporarily through elections, it would have been a major jackpot during the Cold War.
@@secretname4190 (citation needed)
@@electricdazz What? No, that's fact; the lands that are now western Poland were once Germany pre-WW2 and the German population there was exiled to modern German lands. This effectively functioned as an ethnic cleansing. Of course, the Soviets took what was eastern Poland and ethnically cleansed the Poles there too. A bunch of population switches happened after the war ended.
I would love to see a video done on Poland's border changes due to WWII, how they lost an eastern section to the USSR, gained the western section from Germany and whatever they got from the former Prussian territories.
Same here. Plus the logistics of *how* they forcibly relocated millions of people.
@@danielbishop1863 most of them died. I am talking about eastern Germans. About 2.2 million died. I call it a Genocide dont care what others say. They probably say "deserved"
You should really make a short documentary explaining the difference between the Patreon supporters that get a written mention on the screen and those (including of course james Bisonette) that get a spoken mention.
History oversimplified.
I love it
0:36 Cyprus being part of this proposed restoration of Austro-Hungary
Imagine if the morgenthau plan worked. There would've been mass starvation across Germany. Also, idk why the allies just gave up so much of East Germany to the Soviets. It should've been put into west Germany at the very least. Everything post WWII is so confusing sometimes.
The allies weren't in a position to demand the Soviets leave east Germany, so they couldn't take it
You do realize that Soviets were the major military power in Europe after WW2 right ?
Benjamin Freedman's 1961 speech at the Willard Hotel should help clear things up for you. I recommend everyone listen to it at least once.
@@mrsupremegascon "We defeated the wrong enemy." - General George Patton
There would be mass starvation in the whole Europe.The allies wanted to make germany a agriculture focused country and make it regress decades of industrial development and cut down most of the forests.
But then they realized this would cost too much,be almost impossible to revert economically as country as educated as it is and Germany is Europe industrial heart without Europe would grown super slow.
So in the end it was cheaper to simply let Germany rebuild itself and even give a bit of money to them
When James Bisonette was born he was like: "My purpose in life is to be History Matter's main Patreon supporter"
what a legend
Very interesting explanation
the shipping forecast, with Charles the First on the end.
Germany before WW2: 💀
Germany during WW2: 😁
Germany after WW2: 😎/💀
Germany before WW1: 😎😁
East Prussia is Brazil 💪
EAST PRUSSIA IS AUSTRALIA💪🇦🇺💪
I’d be interested in a “how did the empire of Japan (and the rest of the world) react to the internment of Japanese-Americans “
As an American myself, this sounds interesting! I'd imagine that Tokyo was strongly against internment, but now that you mention it, I don't know what the rest of the world thought of it! Thanks for the suggestion!
Thanks for considering Brazil as an owner of a piece of Germany but we really only got our first ever steel mill for participating with the Allies.
Another great video 😊