Hi Chuck, personally I prefer tails first, however I would have no reservations about cutting pins first. And your video, clearly shows its more about having the confidence to attempt either method. Thank you Geoff.
@4vinos Sorry, but I wasn't trying to provide an instructional video. I sell a DVD for that, it's called Dovetailing Apprenticeship (preview here on YT) and is available through my website (acanthus.com), or at Amazon.com or through Popular Woodworking Magazine. I also wasn't going for speed other than trying to cut dovetails quickly enough that folks wouldn't fall asleep half way through. The point of the video is to show that it doesn't matter which you cut first, the pins or tails.
@budnotu You're right, it isn't a race. The idea is to have fun while doing it and get the best fitting joint you can. Once you are proficient, it's fun to race once in a while to see how sharp your skills are.
When you cut them pins first, the money cut, the one that has to be perfect, is on an angle to the face of the board. With tails first, you're just ripping straight down the board at an angle to the end grain. The latter is a slightly easier cut to make IMO. Tails first won't really work with super narrow pins as you're marking the pins essentially blind in a very tight space. Ends up being what you're used to.
It's called a holdfast Don't buy a cheap cast one at one of the woodworking retailers, spend the money to get one made of spring steel (like the gramercy at toolsforworking wood) or a forged version made by a blacksmith. The imported cast iron ones break sooner or later, and it's sooner rather than later with the ones I've bought - they can't handle the stress of bending to put tension on the wood. The spring steel versions are not that expensive.
generally I prefer tails first.. it's easier to cut accurately at an angle across and straight down than straight across and down at an angle.. the second piece is the one where accuracy counts because you need to match the first piece.. in wood like pine it makes almost no difference at all because it's soft as a sponge but when you use HARD hardwood it does make a lot of difference... if it isn't a perfect it either won't fit or it will look like crap..
Dovetails are definitely a structural joint but even in the 18th century they tried to make them fit tightly. The difference between then and today is they didn't obsess over the fit. It was a matter of practicality. They needed to join two boards together and had no other (cost) effective way of doing it. If the joint went together and held, it was good. Most dovetails were not seen and at least 50% were hardwood to softwood.
I usually cut tails first except when I'm going for "London pins", where both of the pin cut start in the same kerf. There's no room to get a marking knife into that kerf. My dovetail saw plate measures about .022", my thinnest marking knife is over .035". They are easy to mark if you cut pins first ! Like these ... i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww85/parkerdudestl/DSCF3140_zpsmhpkrp2v.jpg
i find it WAY easier to do tails first. Much easier to mark the pins from there. Not that i've tried pins first but... find a system and go with it when it works.
There was no real conclusion to this video :P Personally I find it easier to do tails first, but I guess that's all it comes down to: preference. As long as you get a solid joint at the end, who cares about the means.
@MrMeanderthal If you want to practice sawing skills and still do dovetails, just use harder wood and examine the fit of the joint before you glue it. Why would someone saw finger joints?
dovetails aren't really the best thing to practice saw handling skills.. the joint is somewhat forgiving because of the angles.. if you want to build good sawing skills cut finger joints.. there's no taper to help you, it's either a good fit or it's not..
Although this is a good way to show the technique, It is not a good way to show and explain what is being done. Doing this as a way to show how fast it can be done is not a good way to get others to learn the technique.
@daw162 because it's harder to do than dovetails and improves your sawing skill.. besides, there's a lot more to joinery than dovetails. learning how to saw straight and square is a lot more important than cutting fluff joinery.. dovetails are only a sign of craftsmanship when you're an amateur.. reality is, dovetails are structural not decorative, 9 out of 10 are never seen in a completed piece..
Hi Chuck, personally I prefer tails first, however I would have no reservations about cutting pins first. And your video, clearly shows its more about having the confidence to attempt either method. Thank you Geoff.
top man for showing how to do.....what ever you want to cut first thanks
@4vinos Sorry, but I wasn't trying to provide an instructional video. I sell a DVD for that, it's called Dovetailing Apprenticeship (preview here on YT) and is available through my website (acanthus.com), or at Amazon.com or through Popular Woodworking Magazine.
I also wasn't going for speed other than trying to cut dovetails quickly enough that folks wouldn't fall asleep half way through. The point of the video is to show that it doesn't matter which you cut first, the pins or tails.
@budnotu You're right, it isn't a race. The idea is to have fun while doing it and get the best fitting joint you can. Once you are proficient, it's fun to race once in a while to see how sharp your skills are.
I can’t believe I’m just seeing this now , great video
When you cut them pins first, the money cut, the one that has to be perfect, is on an angle to the face of the board. With tails first, you're just ripping straight down the board at an angle to the end grain. The latter is a slightly easier cut to make IMO. Tails first won't really work with super narrow pins as you're marking the pins essentially blind in a very tight space. Ends up being what you're used to.
It's called a holdfast
Don't buy a cheap cast one at one of the woodworking retailers, spend the money to get one made of spring steel (like the gramercy at toolsforworking wood) or a forged version made by a blacksmith. The imported cast iron ones break sooner or later, and it's sooner rather than later with the ones I've bought - they can't handle the stress of bending to put tension on the wood.
The spring steel versions are not that expensive.
generally I prefer tails first.. it's easier to cut accurately at an angle across and straight down than straight across and down at an angle.. the second piece is the one where accuracy counts because you need to match the first piece.. in wood like pine it makes almost no difference at all because it's soft as a sponge but when you use HARD hardwood it does make a lot of difference... if it isn't a perfect it either won't fit or it will look like crap..
Dovetails are definitely a structural joint but even in the 18th century they tried to make them fit tightly. The difference between then and today is they didn't obsess over the fit. It was a matter of practicality. They needed to join two boards together and had no other (cost) effective way of doing it. If the joint went together and held, it was good. Most dovetails were not seen and at least 50% were hardwood to softwood.
Btw...he is using the spring steel gramercy version in the video.
I usually cut tails first except when I'm going for "London pins", where both of the pin cut start in the same kerf. There's no room to get a marking knife into that kerf. My dovetail saw plate measures about .022", my thinnest marking knife is over .035". They are easy to mark if you cut pins first !
Like these ... i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww85/parkerdudestl/DSCF3140_zpsmhpkrp2v.jpg
Thanks for the video.
Please. Lose the ridiculous intro.
i find it WAY easier to do tails first. Much easier to mark the pins from there. Not that i've tried pins first but... find a system and go with it when it works.
There was no real conclusion to this video :P
Personally I find it easier to do tails first, but I guess that's all it comes down to: preference. As long as you get a solid joint at the end, who cares about the means.
Why do some woodworkers think woodworking is a race,if it were I would not do it.
@MrMeanderthal If you want to practice sawing skills and still do dovetails, just use harder wood and examine the fit of the joint before you glue it.
Why would someone saw finger joints?
Common sense dictates it doesn't matter which is first because they go together in the end.
dovetails aren't really the best thing to practice saw handling skills.. the joint is somewhat forgiving because of the angles.. if you want to build good sawing skills cut finger joints.. there's no taper to help you, it's either a good fit or it's not..
Although this is a good way to show the technique, It is not a good way to show and explain what is being done. Doing this as a way to show how fast it can be done is not a good way to get others to learn the technique.
@daw162 because it's harder to do than dovetails and improves your sawing skill.. besides, there's a lot more to joinery than dovetails. learning how to saw straight and square is a lot more important than cutting fluff joinery.. dovetails are only a sign of craftsmanship when you're an amateur.. reality is, dovetails are structural not decorative, 9 out of 10 are never seen in a completed piece..