I think you're missing the underlying message in Dune which is (the author's belief) that religion is not to be trusted. It is made clear throughout the story that the "prophesies" are only manipulations of the Bene Geseritt (forgive the spelling) sisters. Any faith that you see in the story is part of the manipulation and because so many people buy into it, there is a lot of death that results. I think this is the reason that Tolkien didn't like the story. It represents the atheistic view of the world.
That’s weird that the Dune author thinks atheism is more peaceful (?) Communists try to get rid of religion and so many more people are killed even after the people under it are already atheists.
PROMOTE THE FIVE FIRST SATURDAY DEVOTION. LET'S ALL DO A NOVENA TO THE HOLY GHOST LEADING UP TO PENTECOST. LET'S DISCUSS SOLUTIONS TO END THE MADNESS IN OUR BROKEN WORLD.
Paul in Dune is the story of the Antichrist. Franks message was that we should be weary of messiah like figures that arise, clearly in the series you see it only serving Paul’s own vengeful means
Tolkien is a devout Catholic and his Christianity beliefs was really brought to life by Peter Jackson. Dune on the otherhand, in my opinion, lacks a lot of magic and beauty through humility that LOTR has. Maybe I'm just being biased, but hey, LOTR still hits the heart strings everytime I watch it. "Even the smallest of person can change the course of the future." - Galadriel
Lord of the Rings is a mythical and magical fantasy story. Tolkien might have been a "devout" Catholic, but his work surely wasn't. I understand that you like LoTR and that's fine. But please do not equate his work (LoTR) to the Catholic faith.
@@ChrisAFigaro I disagree. There's a lot of simple messages of living the faith throughout the entire Trilogy. Friendship, Sacrifice, Service, Humility, Love, Hope, Resilience, Faith... There is definitely a ton that we can relate to. Although it's a fantasy yes, but the message that Tolkien is giving is all around Christian. If you're looking at the surface level of the fantasy, then you're not understanding and looking beyond to the true meaning of his story. This isn't just about elves, dwarves, hobbits, or orcs you know.
@@ChrisAFigaroliking LOTR doesn't make you catholic. Having said that, the way of understanding the world, good and evil, virtues, destiny, etc in LOTR is heavily rooted in Christianity. Rings of Power fails to understand this in many ways. And something similar can be said about classic star wars and Disney's star wars. Classic star wars, while not Christian inspired, it's a story about good and evil. The force is the connection with everything in the universe. The dark side of the force is using the force for empowerment and selfish reasons. The balance of the force is using the force for the peace and harmony of the Galaxy. There is no light side of the force per se, the light side IS the balance. That in the old trilogy. Disney's star wars doesn't understand the force in that way. The balance of the force is the balance between the light and dark side of the force. If one side grows too much, the force restored the balance by giving power to the other side. What? And in the acolyte trailer, is not about good or about evil, but about how to get power. For Disney, there is no good or evil, as they don't know what is good of evil. Only power matters
@@misteryakamoto it's funny you say that. But would you say the same for Harry Potter? It too has Friendship, Sacrifice, Service, Humility, Love, Hope, Resilience, Faith. All of which we can relate to. Your answer would determine the hypocrisy.
@@misterfevillord1588 I understand where you're coming from. Its themes are routed in Christianity. But Christianity is not its only themes. It's still magic and mysticism. It even has necromancy. Here's a similar argument: “Liking Harry Potter doesn’t make you Catholic. However, the framework for understanding the world, concepts of good and evil, virtues, destiny, etc. in Harry Potter, are also found in many belief systems, including Christianity.”
I just want to mention that The Lord of the Rings is NOT primarily a "Hero's Journey", the solitary hero story. It is the about fellowship, hence the title of first book, The Fellowship of the Ring. Being Catholic, Tolkien emphasized the virtue of fellowship...a trusted bond, a "band of brothers". Like the apostles and disciples Jesus brought together, the importance of needing each other. Jesus made clear that our journey is not a Hero's Journey ( which i am beginning to believe is a psyop) not living for myself but living for others. Journeying with fellow travelers. for the collective maturity of humanity. The Church. The virtue of friendship, and fellowship - Satan cannot understand it just like he cannot understand empathy or sacrificing oneself for another. I do believe that it was THAT message that Tolkien meant to impart in LOTR.
@@jamesmerone I mean that it is the story that was put out by Joseph Campbell on a PBS series with much publicity. The Hero's Journey was a term coined by Campbell, a professor at very liberal college Pacifica. Graduate Institute. It's secular teaching focuses on the humanities, psychology and mythology. That's the background. But I think it was a seductive draw away from a Biblical worldview of seeing oneself as part of God's creation, and having an obligation to serve the larger community, not just yourself. For example, the Hero goes off by himself to find the "elixir" and bring it back to his community. He does all this on his own, the idea comes to him because he feels a "call to adventure". He is wanting to go on this adventure. It put all the focus on him doing what he wants, not thinking about others. It is a subtle change, but huge. It is like Genesis 3, HE desires it and listens to his will (not a higher will), Making oneself god, like Eve. The fruit looked good in her eyes, and she desired it, so she did it. Now, compare that to say, a prophet in the Old Testament. God (greater than oneself) calls him to a mission. It's not something he personally wants, and he doesn't want to go, or to do what God is asking him. It is not for himself, but called to a task for the sake of humanity. He obeys even though it will be difficult. Frodo is doing the same thing. He doesn't want to go, but obeys a higher calling for the sake of humanity. It's not a "call to adventure" that he sets out upon because he wants to. He dreads it. The psyop is the subtle change to influence people's minds to go on their own, to "follow your bliss" (the phrase used over and over by Campbell as he taught The Hero's journey. This influenced young people to follow their own desire and go out on their own, doing whatever they wanted. It made the Self more important than others. That took the focus of ones life away from obligation to family/community and put it on what you want. It created a generation of self centered people, without a clear identity. We get our identity by our interaction in our community. People became lost or confused because they just followed their own desire. It broke down the family and larger communities. I think it was an agenda that was intentional.
1. Similarity of Dangerous Substances (The Ring Vs. The Spice) 2. Idea of the Heroes' Journey 3. Both Novel Universes have an Epic Cosmology. Expansive and detailed World-Building. 4. The Struggle of the Political Power and the Role of the Little Guy (Political Maneuvering and Alliances). 5. The Concept of Good, fighting and overcoming Evil. 6. Both have an emphasis on Race, Politics, Religion, Language, and Geography. 7. The theme of Leadership, which means Responsibility. Leadership that is based on a "Servant Mentality." 8. The Landscape and the Natural features of Middle Earth and Dune are based on an ecological awareness. There is an environmentalism. There is a moral element to the beauty of nature. The balance of an ecosystem and the consequences of the loss of that balance. 9. The importance of Prophecy and Destiny. 10. The use of Magic or Mystical powers. There are magical powers present in both narratives.
Tolkien believed that Good would triumph over evil and all it took was the right leader to do it. Herbert believed that a messiah is just another form of oppression once the followers of the messiah take the wheel. Power over others mind’s overrules both good and evil. I can see why this disturbs and must be deflected.
@@MsMounen Islam is just the most modern version of the other two Abrahamic religions. A Alien could dress up like a hippie and come down in a cloud and it would have 2 billion followers in an instant.
I agree with others here that Tolkien's dislike of Dune has to do with their differing perspectives on religion, and magic vs. science. But that's also the reason why Dune is great sci-fi and LOTR is good as fantasy. The two series are opposites in a lot of ways.
I believe another reason why Tolkien did not like Dune was, besides the cynicism, that the main religious text in the book is called the “Orange Catholic Bible”. It’s a mixture of all the major religions on Earth. I think Tolkien addresses this watering down of Catholicism with other religions as appalling in his letter about the book.
I read somewhere that thoughout history, humans stories boil down to 24? types and that we keep retelling them over and over again, like the wise old man (Obi Wan, Gandalf, etc) sending a young man off on a journey.
@@arnowisp6244 I found out they all actually boil down to these seven: Overcoming The Monster Rags To Riches The Quest Voyage & Return Comedy Tragedy Rebirth
This is so cool...I'm glad you're doing this show with comparison between the two. I've never heard of Dune...but lately, my older son has been watching Dune series, and he's been recommending his younger brother to watch it.
Paul Atraydies was believed by the mob to be the militaristic savior prophet known in Islam as the Mahdi. Paul is called Mahdi by the mob during his speech to the mob. .
LoTR is a deep dive into the human experience and how, despite great difficulties and defeats, it can go right. Dune is deep dive into the human experience and how, despite heroism and the best intentions, it can go wrong.
This is random, and has nothing to do with Tolkien or Catholicism, but this video has made me want to hear Taylor talk about more movies in general. Like the Hunger Games or something.🤣
I can see what you’re saying but there are other authors and books that have been similar in their authorship. Have you read the Eragon series. If not then is recommend you look into it.
Much of these factors are in Homer and later in Alice on Wonderland and The Wizard of Oz - so there is a long tradition for many of these elements - wonderfully presented❤
Plagiarism? I don't think so. In fact, I thought you were just describing many of the core elements of a good fantasy story. I haven't gone through one-by-one, but I'm pretty sure the original Star Wars trilogy had alot of these.
I'm so glad I finally had the chance to watch this! The parallels you've discovered are fascinating. Now I understand why "Dune" never quite captured my attention, while Tolkien's trilogy drew me in instantly. I realize now that "The Lord of the Rings" was inspired by the Holy Spirit, given J.R.R. Tolkien's devout Christian faith as a Roman Catholic. It seems clear that Herbert drew heavily from Tolkien's work. This is a great example of how authors/artists then some, in copying creative ideas can never truly succeed, resulting only in an empty imitation. Thank you again Dr. Marshall... some day I'm going to join your University. God bless you and your family.
To be honest, most of the fantasy/sci-fi books/films have the same motives that you mentioned, simply because things like the fight of good and evil are the root of the reality we live in and there's no escape from it, even in the arts that pretend to create alternative universes. We, humans, are inherently limited, so even when we escape from the reality, the reality gots us on some of its borders. That's simply the way God created us.
Lord of the Rings is very much a traditional heroic epic with clear lines of good and evil where good wins because there is a all-powerful force of good who is able to manipulate events behind the scenes and where valor and the following of noble character leads to ultimate victory....even if villains have moments or times of triumph. Dune is a deconstruction of this notion where we we see that often the road to hell is paved with good intentions....or that selfish actions beget selfish actions and we are welcome to question and observe different leadership styles and the consequences of actions that we take part in. Also while there is a looming antagonist in the emperor and the Harkonens, the real enemy Paul sees is his fate and the cycles of destruction violence that humanity has repressed so long being unleashed because of him regardless of what choices Paul makes. Also Dune acts as a warning against blind trust even in the best of leaders and how giving one's mind and free will away for convenience. Lord of the Rings does have a warning about the abuse of power, but it is more of an abstract way with abuses of technology, one's will, or by the nature of wanting to control things rather than the joys of simplicity. In the end of Lord of the Rings once Sauron is defeated, the heroes are able to build positive lives and the land recovers...though there have been great loses. In Dune, billions are going to die because of Paul's actions releasing a force he can't control in the fanatical Fremen warriors. Also Dune doesn't really have "mystical" powers. Even Paul's visions are genetic memory. All the abilities in Dune are down to training and a bit of genetics. People just think they are mystic abilities because few outside of the sisterhood understand how they are trained and what they are doing.
This reminds me how I got my copy of the book Dune. It was a Christmas present that I received as an altar boy from the parish, more than 40 years ago. As altar boys we received a book as a gift every year during our Christmas party. There are significant differences between Dune and the Lord of the Rings, one set in a distant imaginary future and the other in an distant imaginary past. Dune has politics, LOTR has not. Frank Herbert was inspired by Arabian culture and the Holy Roman Empire, their former antagonist; Tolkien was inspired by European medieval mythology. To call this plagiarism is a little bit far-fetched. What both have in common is that they focus on world building and a traditional society.
To further the comparison of an inanimate object being a key to power and thus corrupting, both Frodo and Paul Atriedes are corrupted by that power and someone else completes the destruction of the power. In LotR, is ironically Gollum who destroys the one ring, while in Dune it’s Paul’s soon Leto who ensures humanity’s survival.
You've missed a few big ones. First, it generally thought that George Lucas (star wars) plagiarized Herbert and Dune. More similarities between both of those than between Dune and LOTR. And finally, both are considered to have "borrowed liberally" from Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series.
I’m always interested in what you have to say but I’m a little surprised someone as erudite as yourself thinks two epics dealing with similar motifs and subject matters suggest plagiarism. Every genre has to come into being at some point, and even though Tolkien was preceded by sword & sorcery style stories like those by Robert E. Howard, it is clear and accepted that the genre known as epic fantasy or high fantasy was invented entirely by Tolkien. So it only stands to reason that the founder of a genre will establish many or most of the core elements that make up the genre, and that means other creators who love the genre and want to work in that genre will be doing their own spin on the elements that make up that genre, or else it would not be that genre! Is every western made after Stagecoach also plagiarism? There are extremely few writers who come anywhere near Tolkien when it comes to creating an alternate reality in which to set an epic story and then use that story universe to seriously explore heavy philosophical and religious questions and themes. In fact, there may be only one: Frank Herbert. Someone else here said that Dune is like the Atheist answer to Lord of the Rings, and they are right. But that doesn’t mean Christians can’t derive insights or topics for discussion from Dune. I would say they complement each other: Lord of the Rings tells the story of a world with the chance for redemption in it, i.e. the presence of God makes redemption possible. Dune (the whole saga of six books) illustrates how a world with no God in it means an endless struggle for a redemption that never comes. Tolkien was a genius and probably a saint but also a peculiar individual with very special tastes and ideas. Just because a genius like Tolkien didn’t see the value of Dune doesn’t mean the value isn’t there. Geniuses and candidate Saints also make mistakes.
@@kentjensen4504 it didn’t warrant any response because he knows you’re 💯 correct. Beautifully worded comment by the way. And for sure, it’s weird to me when people always make the assertion that every similar thing in a book means plagiarism. There’s no such thing as originality. Every artist borrow from another. In the case of Tolkien, Celtic, Norse, welsh mythology and more while putting his own spin on things and in the case of Herbert, placing the ecological aspect front and center, asserting that in a world so futuristic, religion would always be in our nature, & 2 more things that really made it stand out in the time it was written.
As I watched your video the thought kept coming to me that most, if not all, of your points could be said of Star Wars (the original 3 especially) as well.
Lord of the Rings is a story with a Biblical base, a story of resurrection and redemption. Dune is strongly rooted in Islam and the chaos it creates. Dune is taken from Islam right down to Maudib aka the Mahdi or antichrist of revelation
@@stevegrimes3970 Devout Muslims will hate Dune because the religious system in Dune seems to be a mishmash of Islam as well as other religions and they cannot accept change or evolution of the Islamic doctrines.
One day I will end up teaching a metaphysics class juxtaposing LOTR and Dune. LOTR closely embodies the classical virtue ethic while Dune closely embodies the metaphysics of Kant and Nietzsche. Both have much to offer to modern man and somewhere between the two is a better understanding of the truth.
Have you noted the similarities between the _Eye of Sauron_ and the Islamic _Moon and Star_ ☪. It's everywhere, even in the United Neptune logo. Or nationals or something like that
Dune is definitely more cynical of religion and the power a “messiah” figure can wield. Definitely an over arching “Good” vs “Evil” with the almost cartoonish Harkkonen. Still enjoyed both the book and the latest movies. That being said, LOTR is the GOAT.
I made it to a Catholic Charities Partner!!! Baptized Easter Eve with Christ the King conversion of Zachariah comfort pace for the Twelve. Networking with Austin Street now. Blessings!!
Excellent Video! I essentially agreed with all the points you made in your video. As a teen in the 1970s who was an avid Science Fiction and Fantasy reader, Tolkien was of course my favorite. I read Dune as well, but I was more into Hard Science Fiction like Larry Niven and though my other favorite Jack Vance wrote a lot of exotic Science Fiction about exotic human cultures on planets in the galaxy. His science was good, though hard science was not his theme. It wasn't until 1985 that I reread Dune. At that point, Herbert captured my imagination. I read the first four books in the series one after another. I thought Dune Messiah was every bit as good as Dune. Children of Dune was almost as good. God Emperor of Dune seemed a little slower. Did Herbert plagiarize Tolkien. At least unconsciously, Herbert seems to have been influenced by Tolkien. Consciously, I don't know. I will view your upcoming video and then comment. As for Villanueve's Dune I and II, I had no complaints about Part I. Part II is good with one BIG exception. While Zendaya does a great job in her role, I agree with those who say the character Chani turns into 21st Century woke California Girl in Dune II. It works for Villanueve's Dune, but its not quite Herbert's Dune, so much so that there can't be a recognizable Dune Messiah if that movie gets made. I know I am off topic, but your video got me thinking of Dune I and II as contrasted with the original novel. Lastly, I disagree with anti-Theists and others who claim Herbert's message is that all religion is dangerous. I didn't get that from the novels. I did get the warning that religion can be hijacked and become dangerous. As a 64 year old Shi'ite Muslim, who converted from Christianity in 1999, my midlife crisis, I don't see either Jesus Christ or Muhammad as failed or false Messiahs or Prophets. You don't have to agree about Muhammad. I see something bad happening with Muslims in the Succession Crisis, where the family of Muhammad loses to the Imperialists. When Sunni Islam truly begins to gel at the beginning of the Abbasid Caliphate, one gets what I think is a hybrid of Shi'ism and Imperialism. That goes bad with the Mongol Invasion. Believe it or not, I don't see the Roman Catholic Church as evil. Muslim and Christian movements have done terrible things. But, I don't blame that on the Bible, or on the Quran. I can't see how the Ummayad Caliphate thought they were right in trying to capture Constantinople. Their failure was the beginning of their downfall.
You have written about Holzhauser's interpretation of apocalypse, and i would like to know if there can be an influence of such catholic and prophetic books on Tolkien's artwork, to my mind, it could be the case for Aragorn. The very funny things is when we learn for the first time that there could be a catholic great monarch, we say "What ? Who is this Aragorn ?", whereas it's maybe Tolkien who learned that there will be a great monarch and also created Aragorn.
Taylor! Brilliant! Thank you, and congrats on your new role as an author! Check it: Tolkien is expounding, as did Lewis, the faith. Tolkien's is far more veiled. Christ is personified in 3 characters, according to his offices: Aragorn, king. Frodo, suffering servant (priest). Gandalf, prophet. Mordor is hell, Sauron is satan, orcs are demons, elves angels, and that is as far as i can go. Dune, not expounding the faith, but as all unbelievers have no, but crave some religion, Herbert secularized the same themes. He had no other choice. The worms are spirits. The spice is magic. The Fremen are "freemen," who can control spirits. Paul is a secular Jesus, the Bene-Jezarits a secularized version of the priesthood. There are 3 versions of Dune (movie), and i still vote the first is the best. Your 10 points of analysis are superlative. God bless you, sir!
There is a Catholic priest that started doing mass through the Divine Mercy Shrine and stopped watching him because he always starts His sermon with staying " literature not from the Bible but from Lord of the rings" I don't know the story but it gave me an uncomfortable feeling. I trust you is lord of the rings appropriate to be used during mass and sermons.
I don’t think that there’s a strong case for plagiarism here; Tolkien is so monumental in speculative fiction that virtually any successful work subsequent to his writing will invite comparison. I think that Tolkien’s reaction is probably more related to Herbert minimizing the importance of Christianity and being suspicious of religion and messiahs in general. Tolkien’s work looks forward to the history of mankind and thus the Biblical world… it is meant to be compatible with eventual Christianity. Dune passes that by and allows only the vestiges; it creates new future religions which it then harshly criticizes.
i think the differences far outweigh the similarities. First of all, there is absolutely no heroism in dune. second there is no "eucatastrophe". third, also tolkein hated allegory whenever he smelled it and dune is a lot of allegory. spice = oil for example. and thats just for starters.
There's an older version of Dune from the 80's. It has a lot more in it and there's a scene if I can remember correctly of what seems like child sacrifice.
Hello Dr Marshall, I recommend for you reading the book,"The Occult Rrnaissance Church Of Rome" by Michael Hoffman, it looks like the Infiltration goes back hundreds of years! Take care!
They are opposites. Tolkien hated Frank Herbert. Frank Herbert took my own more cynical view of your religion throughout the text.....in fact he lacked my sympathy for you.
LOTR and Star Wars take heavy inspiration from Christianity, while Dune takes inspiration from Islam. Would be interesting to get a video comparing how the heroes are portrayed in each series.
I have read both sets of books many many times over the past 50 years or so. No, Herbert did not plagiarize Tolkien. The works have different objectives, but are both masterful. Religion plays different roles in both, and I agree while Tolkien’s Catholicism influenced LOTR, Herbert’s fear of theocratic government influenced Dune. And Herbert’s fear was driven by modern technology that Tolkien had not seen yet. You can see it in other books Herbert wrote. Interestingly in both sets of works you don’t see priests or pastors, per se, nor much worship services. I’d say maybe Dune edges out LORT there. I just went to a lecture here in DC on Dune led by a theology professor lately of Georgetown and he tied Dune heavily to Black Liberation Theology. 😬😬😬. No. Doesn’t compute, 😂 Herbert was a centrist Republican. 🤣 I love both sets of books very much, and am introducing my sons and husband, all non-readers but big Star Wars fans, to them. Star Wars, of course, stole a ton of stuff from multiple books, including ERB’s Carter of Venus series, another fun set to read. I admit an ignorance of all sci fi past 1990. I’m still enjoying the classics.
Not plagiarism, but a cynical critique of the ideals of Tolkien. To that end, dune and lotr are not similar in regards to prophecy or good vs evil. There is no connection to the divine in dune. The prophesies are human constructs used to manipulate and the subject is the product of selective breeding. Paul is also not good. He is cold and calculating; a different kind of monster than the Baron.
I love to read and I love fantasy and sci fi. I love Tolkien. I’ve read all of the books including the Silmarillion by Tolkien and I couldn’t even get through Dune. Same with the movies.
I don't think there is plagiarism; many great works follow the arc of the hero's journey. Many works have similar elements such as ecology, religion, prophecy but those in Dune are sufficiently different that I think one is stretching a lot to say one borrowed from the other. Without really knowing, I suspect Tolkien disliked Dune because of his ideas of the hero's journey. The true and original hero's journey is the story of Christ and Adam, (God and man). An evil power brought disease, death, decay into the pure world given by God to man. To save man, Christ had to become man Hiimself, and die and rise from the dead. He and His hero's journey is foreshadowed through the typological figures of Moses and David, to name a couple. Christ is the true, perfect hero because He is. And in the end He restores us to Himself and we become children of God and dwell with Him forever. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings reflects this. On the other hand, Dune reflects the enemy of Christendom, the Islamic culture and faith. So one recounted the heroic journey of God and man, of Christ, while the other 'glorifies' the 'enemy' of Christianity. Tolkien saw only one true heroic journey, found in Christianity. All others are a false narrative, a counterfeit to the original, anti-Christian. Again, I have no way of knowing, but this is what I suspect. God bless.
The 2 have very little similarities. Tolkien is centred on an irish pagan-christian folklore whilst in Dune there is a stark contrast between the scientifically advanced and the backward desert beduins. Moreover in every movie there is the Jungian archetypical figure of the hero fighting against evil and his journey.Even in a movie like avatar. Or the dc and marvel ones. Dune copied apocalyptic nonsense from Islamic eschatology with the figure of the mahdi-savior. Plus the continuous reference to beduins, hashish/cannabis with the spice, the holy war-jihad, the ayatollah type figures. The whole movie is like being in some islamic country and culture. I really don't see any similarities tbh. Other than that they are both sci-fi fantasy books. I actually preferred the dune movies. I agree with people saying that Dune is anti-religion even though there is no religion in Tolkien either probably even less since there aren't any manufactured "prophecies" in LOTR!!!
Good vs bad. Star Wars, Dune, LOTR. The Dawn of the Golden Age (2012- 2032). The Return of Our Lord. The Golden Age. The Millennial Reign of Christ. 1984, WEF globalists
I think Tolkien disliked Dune because it was empty and pointless with its morals, which if he saw from the first book, good for him, because it becomes aggressively clear by the second book. I do not think there is real similarity in the books such that Herbert even drew much from Tolkien. Herbert's is uniquely bad.
I saw the first version when I was younger and disliked it for the lack of true hope. I viewed the newer Dune part one and found it depressing and dreadful. Not going to see the second part. LOTR is the best story.
Both also take place in hierarchical non-egalitarian/democratic societies, ruled by groups of males. In both, overt religion is muted but there is a more-than-worldly realm/element present.
I not like Dune as it seems a glorification on murder. The people are monsters and indeed the hero Paul becomes a monster. Mercilessly killing millions. It depicts a bleak future. Dune seems anti-faith. Plus huge plot hole in movie & book the A-bombs are hidden with no guards, yet despite Harkonen spy a highest levels those not found. Now that is stupid.
Tolkien build his wolrd and story for his languages toi florish in a simulated realistic environment... Dune languages are just "Codes" as Tolkiens call them... half of those resemblance are farfetch... so starwars is also inspired from tolkien following that logic... Tolkien world is heavily catholic view while Dune is quite gnostic and orientalism... there's actually more magic and mysticism in Dune than LotR... considering that Gandalf, Sarouman and Sauron are more like angels/demon of the same rank as the Balrog... Remove gandalf and there's no magic in the story... the psychic powers and visions in Dune the power of the voice etc... all that imply WAY more fantasy in Dune... a reason I dislike it... I like fantasy as magic and I like sci-fi as science fiction.
If there's any plagiarism, Herbert probably unconsciously tried to mimic Tolkien's storytelling architecture. Same way that the popular kid in the class does something really cool, and then everyone else trying to be popular tries to do exactly what he did - rather than try to do something completely different.
Those supposed plagiarisms seem to me like the common elements of world-building in almost any fantasy fiction. To me those two epic stories are vastly different, but then, I am a Protestant. Perhaps my views are skewed.
Lord of the Rings is the most BORING book (albeit a trilogy I guess) ever written, painful to read - the DUNE series is really entertaining. I say this this as an Englishman and Christian (Eastern Orthodox) and get that DUNE is not pro-religion.
This video is an attempt to rewrite history. Tolkien hated Dune because it is bad and it is. Also lotr is heavily inspired by Christianity not paganism. Fail video.
@@marteld2108 you mean George who was not original and a plagiarist who took from Dune and didn’t give credit even though it’s obvious he took from Dune. Yes, you should thank Dune for giving you Star Wars 🥱 delulu SW fans😂
I think you're missing the underlying message in Dune which is (the author's belief) that religion is not to be trusted. It is made clear throughout the story that the "prophesies" are only manipulations of the Bene Geseritt (forgive the spelling) sisters. Any faith that you see in the story is part of the manipulation and because so many people buy into it, there is a lot of death that results. I think this is the reason that Tolkien didn't like the story. It represents the atheistic view of the world.
many men miss the obvious atheistic worldview behind the dune novels. it is at times both an explicit and implicit critique of religion.
That’s weird that the Dune author thinks atheism is more peaceful (?) Communists try to get rid of religion and so many more people are killed even after the people under it are already atheists.
PROMOTE THE FIVE FIRST SATURDAY DEVOTION. LET'S ALL DO A NOVENA TO THE HOLY GHOST LEADING UP TO PENTECOST. LET'S DISCUSS SOLUTIONS TO END THE MADNESS IN OUR BROKEN WORLD.
Paul in Dune is the story of the Antichrist. Franks message was that we should be weary of messiah like figures that arise, clearly in the series you see it only serving Paul’s own vengeful means
I believe you are correct.
But the video is not about the "underlying message".
Dune was once described to me as what Lord of the Rings would have been like if Aragorn had taken the Ring for himself and used it to replace Sauron
Perfect! Spot on
Can’t disagree with that!
Dune is definitely a tragic story, like the Greek stories.
Tolkien is a devout Catholic and his Christianity beliefs was really brought to life by Peter Jackson. Dune on the otherhand, in my opinion, lacks a lot of magic and beauty through humility that LOTR has. Maybe I'm just being biased, but hey, LOTR still hits the heart strings everytime I watch it. "Even the smallest of person can change the course of the future." - Galadriel
Lord of the Rings is a mythical and magical fantasy story. Tolkien might have been a "devout" Catholic, but his work surely wasn't. I understand that you like LoTR and that's fine. But please do not equate his work (LoTR) to the Catholic faith.
@@ChrisAFigaro I disagree. There's a lot of simple messages of living the faith throughout the entire Trilogy. Friendship, Sacrifice, Service, Humility, Love, Hope, Resilience, Faith... There is definitely a ton that we can relate to. Although it's a fantasy yes, but the message that Tolkien is giving is all around Christian. If you're looking at the surface level of the fantasy, then you're not understanding and looking beyond to the true meaning of his story. This isn't just about elves, dwarves, hobbits, or orcs you know.
@@ChrisAFigaroliking LOTR doesn't make you catholic. Having said that, the way of understanding the world, good and evil, virtues, destiny, etc in LOTR is heavily rooted in Christianity.
Rings of Power fails to understand this in many ways.
And something similar can be said about classic star wars and Disney's star wars. Classic star wars, while not Christian inspired, it's a story about good and evil. The force is the connection with everything in the universe. The dark side of the force is using the force for empowerment and selfish reasons. The balance of the force is using the force for the peace and harmony of the Galaxy. There is no light side of the force per se, the light side IS the balance. That in the old trilogy.
Disney's star wars doesn't understand the force in that way. The balance of the force is the balance between the light and dark side of the force. If one side grows too much, the force restored the balance by giving power to the other side. What? And in the acolyte trailer, is not about good or about evil, but about how to get power. For Disney, there is no good or evil, as they don't know what is good of evil. Only power matters
@@misteryakamoto it's funny you say that. But would you say the same for Harry Potter? It too has Friendship, Sacrifice, Service, Humility, Love, Hope, Resilience, Faith. All of which we can relate to.
Your answer would determine the hypocrisy.
@@misterfevillord1588 I understand where you're coming from. Its themes are routed in Christianity. But Christianity is not its only themes. It's still magic and mysticism. It even has necromancy.
Here's a similar argument: “Liking Harry Potter doesn’t make you Catholic. However, the framework for understanding the world, concepts of good and evil, virtues, destiny, etc. in Harry Potter, are also found in many belief systems, including Christianity.”
I just want to mention that The Lord of the Rings is NOT primarily a "Hero's Journey", the solitary hero story. It is the about fellowship, hence the title of first book, The Fellowship of the Ring. Being Catholic, Tolkien emphasized the virtue of fellowship...a trusted bond, a "band of brothers". Like the apostles and disciples Jesus brought together, the importance of needing each other.
Jesus made clear that our journey is not a Hero's Journey ( which i am beginning to believe is a psyop) not living for myself but living for others. Journeying with fellow travelers. for the collective maturity of humanity. The Church.
The virtue of friendship, and fellowship - Satan cannot understand it just like he cannot understand empathy or sacrificing oneself for another. I do believe that it was THAT message that Tolkien meant to impart in LOTR.
"Being Catholic, he emphasized the virtue of fellowship" no - probably just being human
What do you mean about being a psyop? Please explain
The Hero's Journey is not a Psyop. It's the Effectively near Universal story structure told and retold across multiple Cultures.
MORE THE Catholic view of the idea. @@Alex-ms9tk
@@jamesmerone I mean that it is the story that was put out by Joseph Campbell on a PBS series with much publicity. The Hero's Journey was a term coined by Campbell, a professor at very liberal college Pacifica. Graduate Institute. It's secular teaching focuses on the humanities, psychology and mythology. That's the background.
But I think it was a seductive draw away from a Biblical worldview of seeing oneself as part of God's creation, and having an obligation to serve the larger community, not just yourself. For example, the Hero goes off by himself to find the "elixir" and bring it back to his community. He does all this on his own, the idea comes to him because he feels a "call to adventure". He is wanting to go on this adventure. It put all the focus on him doing what he wants, not thinking about others. It is a subtle change, but huge. It is like Genesis 3, HE desires it and listens to his will (not a higher will), Making oneself god, like Eve. The fruit looked good in her eyes, and she desired it, so she did it.
Now, compare that to say, a prophet in the Old Testament. God (greater than oneself) calls him to a mission. It's not something he personally wants, and he doesn't want to go, or to do what God is asking him. It is not for himself, but called to a task for the sake of humanity. He obeys even though it will be difficult. Frodo is doing the same thing. He doesn't want to go, but obeys a higher calling for the sake of humanity. It's not a "call to adventure" that he sets out upon because he wants to. He dreads it.
The psyop is the subtle change to influence people's minds to go on their own, to "follow your bliss" (the phrase used over and over by Campbell as he taught The Hero's journey. This influenced young people to follow their own desire and go out on their own, doing whatever they wanted. It made the Self more important than others.
That took the focus of ones life away from obligation to family/community and put it on what you want. It created a generation of self centered people, without a clear identity. We get our identity by our interaction in our community. People became lost or confused because they just followed their own desire. It broke down the family and larger communities. I think it was an agenda that was intentional.
Tolkien disliked Dune very much and stated so in a letter to a friend and asked the friend if he wanted the book returned to him.
1. Similarity of Dangerous Substances (The Ring Vs. The Spice)
2. Idea of the Heroes' Journey
3. Both Novel Universes have an Epic Cosmology. Expansive and detailed World-Building.
4. The Struggle of the Political Power and the Role of the Little Guy (Political Maneuvering and Alliances).
5. The Concept of Good, fighting and overcoming Evil.
6. Both have an emphasis on Race, Politics, Religion, Language, and Geography.
7. The theme of Leadership, which means Responsibility. Leadership that is based on a "Servant Mentality."
8. The Landscape and the Natural features of Middle Earth and Dune are based on an ecological awareness. There is an environmentalism. There is a moral element to the beauty of nature. The balance of an ecosystem and the consequences of the loss of that balance.
9. The importance of Prophecy and Destiny.
10. The use of Magic or Mystical powers. There are magical powers present in both narratives.
Tolkien believed that Good would triumph over evil and all it took was the right leader to do it. Herbert believed that a messiah is just another form of oppression once the followers of the messiah take the wheel. Power over others mind’s overrules both good and evil. I can see why this disturbs and must be deflected.
I saw it as an illustration of what happens when islam takes the reins.
@@MsMounen Islam is just the most modern version of the other two Abrahamic religions. A Alien could dress up like a hippie and come down in a cloud and it would have 2 billion followers in an instant.
If the heros journey is plagiarism, then most of literature is stolen work.
I agree with others here that Tolkien's dislike of Dune has to do with their differing perspectives on religion, and magic vs. science. But that's also the reason why Dune is great sci-fi and LOTR is good as fantasy. The two series are opposites in a lot of ways.
I believe another reason why Tolkien did not like Dune was, besides the cynicism, that the main religious text in the book is called the “Orange Catholic Bible”. It’s a mixture of all the major religions on Earth. I think Tolkien addresses this watering down of Catholicism with other religions as appalling in his letter about the book.
There's no plagiarism. So many stories have those elements. Even Homer's Odyssey.
I read somewhere that thoughout history, humans stories boil down to 24? types and that we keep retelling them over and over again, like the wise old man (Obi Wan, Gandalf, etc) sending a young man off on a journey.
I would agree. If Herbert did plagiarize Lord of the Rings, then Dune would be just as good.
@@jamesmerone Ha ha, that’s good.
LOTR is far superior to Dune
@@RayMack-xz7xg 24 different Genre I think. But there is at most 36 types of stories being told.
@@arnowisp6244 I found out they all actually boil down to these seven:
Overcoming The Monster
Rags To Riches
The Quest
Voyage & Return
Comedy
Tragedy
Rebirth
Love the Tolkien content!
This is so cool...I'm glad you're doing this show with comparison between the two. I've never heard of Dune...but lately, my older son has been watching Dune series, and he's been recommending his younger brother to watch it.
No plagiarism. Hefty accusations need material evidence. All the similarities found simply are marks of very good writing.
That part. 😂 the way they’re reaching.
I like them both equally.
Equally? Wow
Paul Atraydies was believed by the mob to be the militaristic savior prophet known in Islam as the Mahdi. Paul is called Mahdi by the mob during his speech to the mob. .
Great video
I remember one you did about Disney Star Wars. Keep them coming.
Love your regular content but I also really love this content as well!! 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
LoTR is a deep dive into the human experience and how, despite great difficulties and defeats, it can go right. Dune is deep dive into the human experience and how, despite heroism and the best intentions, it can go wrong.
This is random, and has nothing to do with Tolkien or Catholicism, but this video has made me want to hear Taylor talk about more movies in general. Like the Hunger Games or something.🤣
No please!
I can see what you’re saying but there are other authors and books that have been similar in their authorship. Have you read the Eragon series. If not then is recommend you look into it.
"God created Arakis to train the faithful. One cannot go against the word of God."
Much of these factors are in Homer and later in Alice on Wonderland and The Wizard of Oz - so there is a long tradition for many of these elements - wonderfully presented❤
Plagiarism? I don't think so. In fact, I thought you were just describing many of the core elements of a good fantasy story. I haven't gone through one-by-one, but I'm pretty sure the original Star Wars trilogy had alot of these.
I'm so glad I finally had the chance to watch this! The parallels you've discovered are fascinating. Now I understand why "Dune" never quite captured my attention, while Tolkien's trilogy drew me in instantly. I realize now that "The Lord of the Rings" was inspired by the Holy Spirit, given J.R.R. Tolkien's devout Christian faith as a Roman Catholic. It seems clear that Herbert drew heavily from Tolkien's work. This is a great example of how authors/artists then some, in copying creative ideas can never truly succeed, resulting only in an empty imitation. Thank you again Dr. Marshall... some day I'm going to join your University. God bless you and your family.
To be honest, most of the fantasy/sci-fi books/films have the same motives that you mentioned, simply because things like the fight of good and evil are the root of the reality we live in and there's no escape from it, even in the arts that pretend to create alternative universes. We, humans, are inherently limited, so even when we escape from the reality, the reality gots us on some of its borders. That's simply the way God created us.
I need to get the Sword and Serpent books.
Dune II was better imo than the first one.
Lord of the Rings is very much a traditional heroic epic with clear lines of good and evil where good wins because there is a all-powerful force of good who is able to manipulate events behind the scenes and where valor and the following of noble character leads to ultimate victory....even if villains have moments or times of triumph. Dune is a deconstruction of this notion where we we see that often the road to hell is paved with good intentions....or that selfish actions beget selfish actions and we are welcome to question and observe different leadership styles and the consequences of actions that we take part in. Also while there is a looming antagonist in the emperor and the Harkonens, the real enemy Paul sees is his fate and the cycles of destruction violence that humanity has repressed so long being unleashed because of him regardless of what choices Paul makes. Also Dune acts as a warning against blind trust even in the best of leaders and how giving one's mind and free will away for convenience. Lord of the Rings does have a warning about the abuse of power, but it is more of an abstract way with abuses of technology, one's will, or by the nature of wanting to control things rather than the joys of simplicity. In the end of Lord of the Rings once Sauron is defeated, the heroes are able to build positive lives and the land recovers...though there have been great loses. In Dune, billions are going to die because of Paul's actions releasing a force he can't control in the fanatical Fremen warriors. Also Dune doesn't really have "mystical" powers. Even Paul's visions are genetic memory. All the abilities in Dune are down to training and a bit of genetics. People just think they are mystic abilities because few outside of the sisterhood understand how they are trained and what they are doing.
Lord of the Rings is not a traditional heroes tale. Frodo is extremely atypical.
This reminds me how I got my copy of the book Dune. It was a Christmas present that I received as an altar boy from the parish, more than 40 years ago. As altar boys we received a book as a gift every year during our Christmas party.
There are significant differences between Dune and the Lord of the Rings, one set in a distant imaginary future and the other in an distant imaginary past. Dune has politics, LOTR has not. Frank Herbert was inspired by Arabian culture and the Holy Roman Empire, their former antagonist; Tolkien was inspired by European medieval mythology. To call this plagiarism is a little bit far-fetched. What both have in common is that they focus on world building and a traditional society.
Loved LOTR!
To further the comparison of an inanimate object being a key to power and thus corrupting, both Frodo and Paul Atriedes are corrupted by that power and someone else completes the destruction of the power. In LotR, is ironically Gollum who destroys the one ring, while in Dune it’s Paul’s soon Leto who ensures humanity’s survival.
You've missed a few big ones. First, it generally thought that George Lucas (star wars) plagiarized Herbert and Dune. More similarities between both of those than between Dune and LOTR. And finally, both are considered to have "borrowed liberally" from Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series.
I love both Sy Fy and fantasy.
But I could never get into Dune
I’m always interested in what you have to say but I’m a little surprised someone as erudite as yourself thinks two epics dealing with similar motifs and subject matters suggest plagiarism.
Every genre has to come into being at some point, and even though Tolkien was preceded by sword & sorcery style stories like those by Robert E. Howard, it is clear and accepted that the genre known as epic fantasy or high fantasy was invented entirely by Tolkien.
So it only stands to reason that the founder of a genre will establish many or most of the core elements that make up the genre, and that means other creators who love the genre and want to work in that genre will be doing their own spin on the elements that make up that genre, or else it would not be that genre! Is every western made after Stagecoach also plagiarism?
There are extremely few writers who come anywhere near Tolkien when it comes to creating an alternate reality in which to set an epic story and then use that story universe to seriously explore heavy philosophical and religious questions and themes. In fact, there may be only one: Frank Herbert.
Someone else here said that Dune is like the Atheist answer to Lord of the Rings, and they are right. But that doesn’t mean Christians can’t derive insights or topics for discussion from Dune. I would say they complement each other:
Lord of the Rings tells the story of a world with the chance for redemption in it, i.e. the presence of God makes redemption possible.
Dune (the whole saga of six books) illustrates how a world with no God in it means an endless struggle for a redemption that never comes.
Tolkien was a genius and probably a saint but also a peculiar individual with very special tastes and ideas. Just because a genius like Tolkien didn’t see the value of Dune doesn’t mean the value isn’t there. Geniuses and candidate Saints also make mistakes.
FULLY CONCUR W/everything said here.
@@nenyeo6090 I was a little disappointed my little comment never lead to further discussion with Marshall. I would honestly love his response.
@@kentjensen4504 it didn’t warrant any response because he knows you’re 💯 correct. Beautifully worded comment by the way. And for sure, it’s weird to me when people always make the assertion that every similar thing in a book means plagiarism. There’s no such thing as originality. Every artist borrow from another. In the case of Tolkien, Celtic, Norse, welsh mythology and more while putting his own spin on things and in the case of Herbert, placing the ecological aspect front and center, asserting that in a world so futuristic, religion would always be in our nature, & 2 more things that really made it stand out in the time it was written.
@@nenyeo6090 You are very kind. I shall worry no more! Thanks. :)
The Hero's Journey shows up all over. In Star Wars the Force is the key and it's not an object but also has a dark seductive side.
dune's based. ignore the films, just read the books. herbert was not the best writer, but he was a galaxy brain.
As I watched your video the thought kept coming to me that most, if not all, of your points could be said of Star Wars (the original 3 especially) as well.
@@bradyandjodi1 In the Star Trek franchise all mention of God was forbidden by Roddenbury.
Lord of the Rings is a story with a Biblical base, a story of resurrection and redemption. Dune is strongly rooted in Islam and the chaos it creates. Dune is taken from Islam right down to Maudib aka the Mahdi or antichrist of revelation
@@stevegrimes3970 Devout Muslims will hate Dune because the religious system in Dune seems to be a mishmash of Islam as well as other religions and they cannot accept change or evolution of the Islamic doctrines.
One day I will end up teaching a metaphysics class juxtaposing LOTR and Dune. LOTR closely embodies the classical virtue ethic while Dune closely embodies the metaphysics of Kant and Nietzsche. Both have much to offer to modern man and somewhere between the two is a better understanding of the truth.
Would you mind posting the stuff about Dune and its relation to Kant and Nietzsche on RUclips when you do teach the course on Dune.
I do not think you should compare Lord of the Rings to something like Dune
Have you noted the similarities between the _Eye of Sauron_ and the Islamic _Moon and Star_ ☪. It's everywhere, even in the United Neptune logo. Or nationals or something like that
Dune is definitely more cynical of religion and the power a “messiah” figure can wield. Definitely an over arching “Good” vs “Evil” with the almost cartoonish Harkkonen. Still enjoyed both the book and the latest movies. That being said, LOTR is the GOAT.
LOTR is TEDIUM concentrated.
This is not plagiarism. It is explanation of what our World is about :)
I made it to a Catholic Charities Partner!!! Baptized Easter Eve with Christ the King conversion of Zachariah comfort pace for the Twelve. Networking with Austin Street now. Blessings!!
Herbert was mainly inspired by Lawrence of Arabia.
No. He wasn’t.
Isn't Paul a false prophet not a hero?
@DrTaylorMarshall- Love the book content, please more of this ;)
Excellent Video!
I essentially agreed with all the points you made in your video.
As a teen in the 1970s who was an avid Science Fiction and Fantasy reader, Tolkien was of course my favorite. I read Dune as well, but I was more into Hard Science Fiction like Larry Niven and though my other favorite Jack Vance wrote a lot of exotic Science Fiction about exotic human cultures on planets in the galaxy. His science was good, though hard science was not his theme.
It wasn't until 1985 that I reread Dune. At that point, Herbert captured my imagination. I read the first four books in the series one after another. I thought Dune Messiah was every bit as good as Dune. Children of Dune was almost as good. God Emperor of Dune seemed a little slower.
Did Herbert plagiarize Tolkien. At least unconsciously, Herbert seems to have been influenced by Tolkien. Consciously, I don't know. I will view your upcoming video and then comment.
As for Villanueve's Dune I and II, I had no complaints about Part I. Part II is good with one BIG exception. While Zendaya does a great job in her role, I agree with those who say the character Chani turns into 21st Century woke California Girl in Dune II. It works for Villanueve's Dune, but its not quite Herbert's Dune, so much so that there can't be a recognizable Dune Messiah if that movie gets made.
I know I am off topic, but your video got me thinking of Dune I and II as contrasted with the original novel.
Lastly, I disagree with anti-Theists and others who claim Herbert's message is that all religion is dangerous. I didn't get that from the novels. I did get the warning that religion can be hijacked and become dangerous.
As a 64 year old Shi'ite Muslim, who converted from Christianity in 1999, my midlife crisis, I don't see either Jesus Christ or Muhammad as failed or false Messiahs or Prophets. You don't have to agree about Muhammad. I see something bad happening with Muslims in the Succession Crisis, where the family of Muhammad loses to the Imperialists. When Sunni Islam truly begins to gel at the beginning of the Abbasid Caliphate, one gets what I think is a hybrid of Shi'ism and Imperialism. That goes bad with the Mongol Invasion.
Believe it or not, I don't see the Roman Catholic Church as evil. Muslim and Christian movements have done terrible things. But, I don't blame that on the Bible, or on the Quran.
I can't see how the Ummayad Caliphate thought they were right in trying to capture Constantinople. Their failure was the beginning of their downfall.
There is one ring, whereas almost everyone is using spice.
You have written about Holzhauser's interpretation of apocalypse, and i would like to know if there can be an influence of such catholic and prophetic books on Tolkien's artwork, to my mind, it could be the case for Aragorn. The very funny things is when we learn for the first time that there could be a catholic great monarch, we say "What ? Who is this Aragorn ?", whereas it's maybe Tolkien who learned that there will be a great monarch and also created Aragorn.
Can you do a reaction and response to Pastor Jeff Durban who posted a video arguing with catholics saying their belief is false?
Love the vid my guy
Taylor! Brilliant! Thank you, and congrats on your new role as an author! Check it: Tolkien is expounding, as did Lewis, the faith. Tolkien's is far more veiled. Christ is personified in 3 characters, according to his offices: Aragorn, king. Frodo, suffering servant (priest). Gandalf, prophet. Mordor is hell, Sauron is satan, orcs are demons, elves angels, and that is as far as i can go. Dune, not expounding the faith, but as all unbelievers have no, but crave some religion, Herbert secularized the same themes. He had no other choice. The worms are spirits. The spice is magic. The Fremen are "freemen," who can control spirits. Paul is a secular Jesus, the Bene-Jezarits a secularized version of the priesthood. There are 3 versions of Dune (movie), and i still vote the first is the best. Your 10 points of analysis are superlative. God bless you, sir!
There is a Catholic priest that started doing mass through the Divine Mercy Shrine and stopped watching him because he always starts His sermon with staying " literature not from the Bible but from Lord of the rings" I don't know the story but it gave me an uncomfortable feeling. I trust you is lord of the rings appropriate to be used during mass and sermons.
Be careful with anything Divine Mercy related.
There so many similarities in Tolkien's work from what came before him. He's wonderful.
Why is this important?
Yes, it is pure and cheap plagiarism. Tolken is superior in so many ways! I love his other books and essays. Such a great author.
DELUSIONAL 😂
I don’t think that there’s a strong case for plagiarism here; Tolkien is so monumental in speculative fiction that virtually any successful work subsequent to his writing will invite comparison. I think that Tolkien’s reaction is probably more related to Herbert minimizing the importance of Christianity and being suspicious of religion and messiahs in general.
Tolkien’s work looks forward to the history of mankind and thus the Biblical world… it is meant to be compatible with eventual Christianity. Dune passes that by and allows only the vestiges; it creates new future religions which it then harshly criticizes.
i think the differences far outweigh the similarities. First of all, there is absolutely no heroism in dune. second there is no "eucatastrophe". third, also tolkein hated allegory whenever he smelled it and dune is a lot of allegory. spice = oil for example. and thats just for starters.
And from the desert at that
Gee, it would only stand to reason that J.K Rowling wouldn't like Dune or JRR Tolkein
There's an older version of Dune from the 80's. It has a lot more in it and there's a scene if I can remember correctly of what seems like child sacrifice.
Are you talking about the one with Kyle McClaughlen? I have that one. And i never saw that scene.
@@esmysyield2023are they talking about the little benegesserit sister with the knife…”and how can this beee.. he is the quizadhadarach (spelling lol)
@@valkyrie5948 lol. Maybe. Lol. I so prefer the 80s version to the ones these days lol.
The 80s sucked so hard
@@brandywineblue I think it was a bittersweet time for many.
Hello Dr Marshall, I recommend for you reading the book,"The Occult Rrnaissance Church Of Rome" by Michael Hoffman, it looks like the Infiltration goes back hundreds of years! Take care!
Today, in the real world, we have "the ONE AI TO RULE THEM ALL"
They are opposites. Tolkien hated Frank Herbert. Frank Herbert took my own more cynical view of your religion throughout the text.....in fact he lacked my sympathy for you.
Amazing photos
Thankyou ❤
I didn’t enjoy Dune
LOTR and Star Wars take heavy inspiration from Christianity, while Dune takes inspiration from Islam.
Would be interesting to get a video comparing how the heroes are portrayed in each series.
Lol I was hoping someone would mention star wars! Dr Marshall needs to make videos on episode 1-6
@AndrewMaksymBrainNectar agree but also add Rogue One, still ignore Episodes 7-9 though
@@daltonburroughs3811 and maybe it wasn’t very good but technically Han Solo story was between the original and prequel timeline
@@AndrewMaksym I thought it was okay. I liked that they made Han shoot first. I think the hate was overplayed.
Dune is Islam no wonder it is all about islamic values.
🙏🙏🙏
Why Tolkien hated Disney? Ink and Fantasy beat you to it. They already did such a video.
Let the incense flow
I have read both sets of books many many times over the past 50 years or so. No, Herbert did not plagiarize Tolkien. The works have different objectives, but are both masterful. Religion plays different roles in both, and I agree while Tolkien’s Catholicism influenced LOTR, Herbert’s fear of theocratic government influenced Dune. And Herbert’s fear was driven by modern technology that Tolkien had not seen yet. You can see it in other books Herbert wrote. Interestingly in both sets of works you don’t see priests or pastors, per se, nor much worship services. I’d say maybe Dune edges out LORT there. I just went to a lecture here in DC on Dune led by a theology professor lately of Georgetown and he tied Dune heavily to Black Liberation Theology. 😬😬😬. No. Doesn’t compute, 😂 Herbert was a centrist Republican. 🤣
I love both sets of books very much, and am introducing my sons and husband, all non-readers but big Star Wars fans, to them. Star Wars, of course, stole a ton of stuff from multiple books, including ERB’s Carter of Venus series, another fun set to read. I admit an ignorance of all sci fi past 1990. I’m still enjoying the classics.
Not plagiarism, but a cynical critique of the ideals of Tolkien.
To that end, dune and lotr are not similar in regards to prophecy or good vs evil. There is no connection to the divine in dune. The prophesies are human constructs used to manipulate and the subject is the product of selective breeding. Paul is also not good. He is cold and calculating; a different kind of monster than the Baron.
I love to read and I love fantasy and sci fi. I love Tolkien. I’ve read all of the books including the Silmarillion by Tolkien and I couldn’t even get through Dune. Same with the movies.
I like these fun concepts, but I hope Taylor Marshall gives credit to Jess of the Shire and other channels that have done these vidoes before
I don't think there is plagiarism; many great works follow the arc of the hero's journey. Many works have similar elements such as ecology, religion, prophecy but those in Dune are sufficiently different that I think one is stretching a lot to say one borrowed from the other. Without really knowing, I suspect Tolkien disliked Dune because of his ideas of the hero's journey. The true and original hero's journey is the story of Christ and Adam, (God and man). An evil power brought disease, death, decay into the pure world given by God to man. To save man, Christ had to become man Hiimself, and die and rise from the dead. He and His hero's journey is foreshadowed through the typological figures of Moses and David, to name a couple. Christ is the true, perfect hero because He is. And in the end He restores us to Himself and we become children of God and dwell with Him forever. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings reflects this. On the other hand, Dune reflects the enemy of Christendom, the Islamic culture and faith. So one recounted the heroic journey of God and man, of Christ, while the other 'glorifies' the 'enemy' of Christianity. Tolkien saw only one true heroic journey, found in Christianity. All others are a false narrative, a counterfeit to the original, anti-Christian. Again, I have no way of knowing, but this is what I suspect. God bless.
No. Sometimes people just get the same idea at the same time.
Keep it up Dr. Raise the flag of the True Church
It’s not. Taylor is deceived and teach another Christ and pray to Mary that doesn’t exist
Dune is 40k for muslims.
The 2 have very little similarities. Tolkien is centred on an irish pagan-christian folklore whilst in Dune there is a stark contrast between the scientifically advanced and the backward desert beduins.
Moreover in every movie there is the Jungian archetypical figure of the hero fighting against evil and his journey.Even in a movie like avatar. Or the dc and marvel ones.
Dune copied apocalyptic nonsense from Islamic eschatology with the figure of the mahdi-savior. Plus the continuous reference to beduins, hashish/cannabis with the spice, the holy war-jihad, the ayatollah type figures. The whole movie is like being in some islamic country and culture.
I really don't see any similarities tbh. Other than that they are both sci-fi fantasy books. I actually preferred the dune movies.
I agree with people saying that Dune is anti-religion even though there is no religion in Tolkien either probably even less since there aren't any manufactured "prophecies" in LOTR!!!
12.8amps
Good vs bad. Star Wars, Dune, LOTR. The Dawn of the Golden Age (2012- 2032). The Return of Our Lord. The Golden Age. The Millennial Reign of Christ. 1984, WEF globalists
I think Tolkien disliked Dune because it was empty and pointless with its morals, which if he saw from the first book, good for him, because it becomes aggressively clear by the second book. I do not think there is real similarity in the books such that Herbert even drew much from Tolkien. Herbert's is uniquely bad.
People thought Dune was trash 40 years ago, can't believe it's still hanging around. Who is giving it life support?
Dune`s greatest contribution is paving way to better works as 40k, atleast it is a setting that does not hide what is all about.
I have a feeling its secularist
I think most modern fantasy has been influenced by Professor Tolkien. What a brilliant mind.
I saw the first version when I was younger and disliked it for the lack of true hope. I viewed the newer Dune part one and found it depressing and dreadful. Not going to see the second part. LOTR is the best story.
I have NO desire to see that movie at all !
I agree with you my friend. Dune seems to me a new pile of trash. It seems not one new writer worth a damn exists.
Both also take place in hierarchical non-egalitarian/democratic societies, ruled by groups of males. In both, overt religion is muted but there is a more-than-worldly realm/element present.
I not like Dune as it seems a glorification on murder. The people are monsters and indeed the hero Paul becomes a monster. Mercilessly killing millions. It depicts a bleak future. Dune seems anti-faith. Plus huge plot hole in movie & book the A-bombs are hidden with no guards, yet despite Harkonen spy a highest levels those not found. Now that is stupid.
Tolkien build his wolrd and story for his languages toi florish in a simulated realistic environment...
Dune languages are just "Codes" as Tolkiens call them...
half of those resemblance are farfetch...
so starwars is also inspired from tolkien following that logic...
Tolkien world is heavily catholic view while Dune is quite gnostic and orientalism...
there's actually more magic and mysticism in Dune than LotR...
considering that Gandalf, Sarouman and Sauron are more like angels/demon of the same rank as the Balrog...
Remove gandalf and there's no magic in the story...
the psychic powers and visions in Dune the power of the voice etc... all that imply WAY more fantasy in Dune...
a reason I dislike it... I like fantasy as magic and I like sci-fi as science fiction.
If there's any plagiarism, Herbert probably unconsciously tried to mimic Tolkien's storytelling architecture. Same way that the popular kid in the class does something really cool, and then everyone else trying to be popular tries to do exactly what he did - rather than try to do something completely different.
Those supposed plagiarisms seem to me like the common elements of world-building in almost any fantasy fiction. To me those two epic stories are vastly different, but then, I am a Protestant. Perhaps my views are skewed.
Lord of the Rings is the most BORING book (albeit a trilogy I guess) ever written, painful to read - the DUNE series is really entertaining. I say this this as an Englishman and Christian (Eastern Orthodox) and get that DUNE is not pro-religion.
If Lord of the Rings is the bible, then it makes sense that Dune is plagiarism.
Admit it Dune is trash that seems like a Shining diamond basically.
Haven’t watched any, I don’t plan on doing so anytime soon.
This video is an attempt to rewrite history. Tolkien hated Dune because it is bad and it is. Also lotr is heavily inspired by Christianity not paganism. Fail video.
I couldn’t get into Dune and I am a big Sci-Fi / Fantasy genre fan. I need a lot of aliens in the movies I watch hence I am a huge Star Wars fan.
You should thank Dune for giving you Star Wars.
@@jamesmerone I should thank George Lucas for Star Wars-he created it!!! Hahaha.
@@marteld2108 you mean George who was not original and a plagiarist who took from Dune and didn’t give credit even though it’s obvious he took from Dune. Yes, you should thank Dune for giving you Star Wars 🥱 delulu SW fans😂
Dumb take
When you realise ⊃ ∪ ∩ ⪽ is just bunch of dudes fighting for space c*caine
Dune is disgusting and demonic.
LoTR is demonic too. It has magic, mysticism, and necromancy.