Typically in the manuals and books like the expert sword mans companion, it's said that the off hand was used often as a last defense. Held by your left ear or over the heart or the throat, Donald Mcbane kept it by the side of his head. So to grab or stop some of the penetration from hitting a vital organ, if the blade has to thrust through your hand before hitting your chest, it could save your life. So aside from a modern aspect of holding the arm "out of the way" it has a defensive aspect from actual life or death dueling in history.
And here I was thinking that the rear hand up and behind your head was just used for drammatic effect. Every day I learn something you. Great videos, keep up the good work! :)
Writing in 1595, Vincentio Saviolo recommends: "V. I will tell you, this weapon must bee used with a glove, and if a man should be without a glove, it were better to hazard a little hurt of the hand, thereby to become maister of his enemies Swoorde, than to breake with the swoord, and so give his enemy the advantage of him." "Moreover, having the use of your lefte hand, and wearing a gantlet or glove of maile, your enemy shall no sooner make a thrust, but you shal be readye to catch his swoorde fast, and to command him at your pleasure: wherefore I wish you not to defend any thrust with the swoorde, because in so dooing you loose the point." A few years later Giganti & Capo Ferro show the offhand being used only for gripping the opponent's hilt after a pass. Both show the empty off hand as held back on a straight lunge. I guess they were worried, at least in part, about getting it lopped off.
I started in medieval reenactment but have taken a few lessons in 17thC rapier where I was taught to have the hand in a guard position at chest height, hand horizontal, as with a thick glove you can bat away attacks. It got instinctual for me pretty much immediately and I started doing the same in medieval use (which I'll admit looked odd). It took one time for me to remember not to try and bat away an arming sword with my palm(and thinner gloves), but I still find it useful for grappling the enemy shield or weapon arm (perhaps made easier by the fighting style we use which is a bit more safety focused). I've since started larp fighting and only now started moving the hand out of the way entirely as this system doesn't allow grappling(Larp is fun but a but a bit wimpy imo. Then again I'm less bruised at the end of the day). I've also found myself surprisingly good at it, and I'm able to hold my own against people with much more experience, we think its that I've had just enough proper lessons to know principles and have good footwork, but not enough to build the wrong muscle memory for the different styles (and starting with heavier swords probably helped too)
I was taught to keep your palm in your sight, in front of your face. One for guard as it's better to be hit in the back of the hand than your face, but also as offensive. It's already right there, so thrust that hand right at your opponent's face. They rear back or get poked in the eye, either way gives you an advantage.
i actually find putting my off hand on my shoulder and arm across my chest to help me while practicing as it helps in my control in my movements and I can use my off hand in aiding in my movements and direction of my blade from my shoulder
I always just assumed the offhand was kept behind the body was to keep from losing track of where it was in combat and thus letting it become an easy target for the opponent.
Grat vid I know all too well to keep that off hand outa the way, I'm not ashamed to admit I caught myself with my own blade a few times. I would totally love to see a video about the pro's and cons of side on vs digonal or straight on stances. I can totally see the advantages of the side on stance but in my personal experience it can leave the liver and kidney prone to a strike if right handed, luckily I'm left handed so for me its just a kidney but its still a really bad day in toytown if ya get hit there.
"luckily I'm left handed so for me its just a kidney but its still a really bad day in toytown if ya get hit there.".. Then it would be a kidney and a spleen exposed
Is there any historical evidence that an armored left hand was activly used for parrying? -and how about old pistols they had quite a long barrel, which could be used as well.
Yes to both. The sword and left-hand gauntlet was certainly a recognised weapon combination and techniques are detailed in the Anonymous Bolognese treatise often known as 'Anonimo Bolognese'. The use of the pistol in the left hand to parry is detailed in an 18th century naval treatise.
Jonathan Allen Yes mailed gloves for the left hand seem to be quite well documented in the 16th-17thC. Though of course these things were probably only useful if you were expecting a fight, as I don't imagine that many men went around wearing them on a daily basis. Or maybe thy did!
scholagladiatoria I wonder if the hand placement may have been dictated by the school's use of off-hand weapons. For example, if the school included dagger, buckler, lantern, cloak, etc., in the off-hand, did they also tend to keep the hand more forward in single-sword style, so as not to drastically change the form for the student when switching from one discipline to another? (I hope that makes sense)
scholagladiatoria Gotta ask about limb protection. Would say a lonngsword user wear a full arm protection with shoulder pad on their main arm or both arms? Or a rapier user with buckler/dagger combo? Because wearing full arm protections looks restrictive correct me if I'm wrong.
In Johannes Lecküchner's "Kunst des Messerfechtens" (1478) you can find: "And firstly, you should fence with one hand with the Messer and you should have the other one on the back. If you want to fight with the empty hand, as in Messer-taking, grasping, clenching the arms etc., you should turn the hand from the back to the chest when you want to perform something on him on the inside over the arm."
Yes, the German messer treatises seem to have put the arm behind the back as standard, so it goes back at least the the 14th century, probably a lot earlier.
loving your videos and just subscribed to your channel, but I think more credit should be given to a hand in the shielding position; vary much so when your forearm is wrapped in a cloak. been watching your videos. when i am sparing with my friends the left hand forward is an easy target, but become vary practical when going for a grapple. also I am sword and shield type of guy, and the hard forward feels really natural to me. Often I don't get to bring out a shield, but a smaller sword in that off hand is good for blocking. It should be noted that I don't like sparing, but prefer to do group fights, and in a group fight is their really a safe place to put a hand?
I have no experience with saber techniques so I'm not qualified to make a judgement on how hand positioning would affect the proper use of a saber, but I always thought that placing your hand on the your lower back would make your shoulders ridged and stiff. Would you mind describing your own experience for me, I'm interested in knowing from someone who's been shown to do it properly
Why do you think in Meyer's Dussacks the Hand kind of follows the guard positions? After all this reasoning in the video, I wonder if I should just put it away instead
I keep seeing a fictional character who always fought with a Long Sword wielded one-handed and kept his left hand behind his back. The first time Swords were tangled, he'd "Sucker-Punch" with a heretofore hidden foot long dagger he'd been keeping his hand on behind his back. I'm all in favor of so-called "Dirty Tricks" in fighting, but I can't imagine that working at all well, except in very unusual circumstances. Comments? What if one occasionally threw something left handed? That should at least keep your client distracted. .....RVM45
That's actually a street knife trick as well. People approach you with the body slightly tilted and one hand hidden to maximize surprise and ability to stab. In fact, if they're brandishing a knife out in front of them, they usually mean "go away." A knife held back means "don't leave until I'm done, please." I've also read a case study in Baltimore which involved a knife stashed at an angle in the rear pocket. It was pulled very quickly and used to stab an assailant 2 times before the assailant realized there was a knife. I've read another study which involved a policeman dealing with a rowdy person in the drunk tank who produced a knife from behind their back and cut up the officer's hands and arms very badly before the officer realized that there had to be a knife around because he was bleeding. What I think makes this effective, though I don't know about the fictional character you speak of, is that people in mortal danger often have tunnel vision due to the effects of the fight-or-flight response. Thus, a knife suddenly produced, especially if it was hidden and is brought out to the side from behind the back, may not be visible due to being outside the tunnel walls.
Trevor Johnson Yeah, that's one reason that they make some fighting Knives with black blades-the blade is almost invisible at night-or so I'm told. I'm just not sure, given the reach difference between even a longish Knife and a Sword that counting on bringing in a sucker punch with a heretofore hidden Knife is all that great a tactic. I have often remarked that most Gun play and handling in movies and on TV was arrant nonsense. Now that I'm learning even a little about Sword handling, I see that they're just as ignorant there. The fictional character that I referred to was "Methos" the oldest Immortal on the "Highlander" TV Series. Haven't rewatched those old shows lately. I'm sure that they're filled with egregious Sword Handling-but I used to enjoy them a decade or so ago. .....RVM45
RVM451 Ah. I watched a few of those but I dunno about how real it was. I do know that pulling a knife out from someplace in the middle of a fight is a very deadly tactic. One thing you might consider, however, is that you have to be within touching range to get a really good draw-cut. People do come that close, and that's how I was trained in the smattering of kenjutsu that I've studied. I also remember some of the accounts of duels where the combatants did exactly what you're talking about. One person got run through, and basically closed onto the sword, pulled out a dagger, and played 18 holes on the other person. With the sword still through them, I might add. Swordfights could get VERY close and personal, even duels.
Thnx Sir Matt for this Video..... Finally i knew the reasons of putting the left hand behind the hip or the back... But i have got a question: Eastern Nations like Egyptian Mamluks , Persians and Indians of the 17-19th centuries used sabers (like the shamshir , the tulwar and the kilij )but i have never seen them putting their hands back while fighting despite their weapons were somewhat similair to their European counterparts ( i mean both used curved sabers) thnx for answering :)
Eastern bladed weapons like the tulwar, shamshir and kilij are much more curved than European sabers and usually somewhat heavier as well. Consequently using the off-hand on your hip to balance would be less effective as more momentum is going forward and making your lunge/recovery too slow, so you need a different fighting style to accommodate for that.
Well it's not really possible for me to answer, as there are only a few treatises from Egypt and Persia ( www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14678 ) and they don't seem to give that level of detail. Usually the sword in these areas was used with the shield or buckler in the left hand. When the sword was used alone, it seems that the left hand was held in various positions, some of which are mentioned in this video and shown also in European sources.
Generally speaking it's considered a safety issue. I can't speak for HEMA, which at least studies grappling in the context of swordsmanship, but I can speak for modern sport fencing and the SCA. In sport fencing, it's more or less little more than convention. It isn't even studied, as any touch that isn't from the point of the foil/epee or sabre blade, it's an automatic penalty (grappling is a pretty surefire way to be disqualified). I've asked several instructors and the standard response is that it was deemed unsafe and unsportsmanlike when the conventions of modern fencing were being determined. In the SCA it's not done solely for safety reasons. Most SCA combat is done on open ground, without nothing to cushion a fall but whatever armor you're wearing (and if you've ever fallen wearing mail, you'll understand why it's a safety issue). As such, it's generally considered safer to get cracked in the ribs with a weapon (or weapon simulator depending on your group) than to get kicked in the back of the knee and brought down backwards when wearing armor.
The big problem I have with the left hand is trying to resist the urge to try and block incoming cuts with it. Keeping control of instinct is difficult, and I've given my opponents a LOT of points because of it. :)
Yes, it's the natural response - which is why many victims of knife attacks get a lot of wounds on their forearms and hands. Better a cut in the arm than in the neck I guess!
scholagladiatoria I've heard the phrase "bone shield" used in some modern combatives-style martial arts to describe this. It ain't pretty, or preferred, but as you said, better in the hand than the neck.
Off topic, but I have a question that has been on my mind ever since I became interested in medieval arms and armor, and fencing systems-- One of my all time favorite movie sword duels was Westley vs Inigo Montoya in the wonder film _The Princess Bride_ My question is, though I know they used exaggerated stage fencing in the scene, the better to look flashy onscreen-- but when they are talking about the techniques they are using, like _"Bonetti's Defense"_ , which I've researched and understand to be a real defensive fencing system created by swordmaster Rocco Bonetti, are they actually using any of those techniques in the fight at all?
do you have a video about grip of sabre. I fenced Sabre in college, but my (copy) civil war sabre is a lot heavier. Use of thumb and forefinger grip doesn't seem to work as well with the heavier sword.
You basically just have to get used to the weight, it works, just not as easily as modern saber. Alternatively, you can use a “thumbs up” grip, which is seen in British military saber.
I have never hit myself in the hand, but: I once while trying to show someone a cut which involved a small sidestep bumped into a low wall i had forgotten was there and hit myself in the head.
This video made me wonder. Have you ever looked into the connection between HEMA and the Filipino Martial Arts? Could they by any chance have been influenced by backsword fighting or do you think their live hand was developed independently?
I have wanted to look more into FMA for a long time, but never really had the time or opportunity. I do think though that many martial arts come to similar conclusions on how to do things, without necessarily having influenced each other directly. There are only a limited number of ways to sensibly use certain types of weapon, after all.
I've heard that during Spain's conquest of the Philippines, Spanish swordsmen held their own, and Filipinos added some elements from the rapier and dagger to their existing fighting styles. The big emphasis was on the cut due to machete style tools they carried at the time for agricultural reasons. So the Filipino systems are a combination of Kuntao (Hokkien Chinese martial arts), copied parts of Spanish fencing, and the systems already there.
scholagladiatoria I have been into FMA for quite some time. It's interesting to note that in Filipino Stick/Blade fighting, the off hand is always kept at the chest so that it becomes easy to grapple the opponent's weapon hand away when receiving a cut or to try a disarm move. Glad to see that HEMAs also had a similar concept. :)
scholagladiatoria Maybe you could start your research into FMA by reading some Spanish "La Verdadera Destreza" Manuals. Many footwork and blade concepts are similar between the two arts. (It's no wonder, since the Spanish had a strong presence in the Philipines for a loooong time.)
scholagladiatoria how close do you actually stand to the camera and what kind of camera do you use? I stranded my camera one but the picture didn't seem as good when I moved back.
If you are wearing gauntlets, could you block incoming sword attacks with your hands and forearms like you would block punches in an unarmed fight? The technique he demonstrates seems like it should be more of a last resort than something to build your stance and style from. I mean I get it, a backsword has a blunt side, and a smallsword might be all blunt save the point so you might be able to do it without damaging your hand. And even if you get cut, you might still be able to avoid getting hit with the thrust and a handwound is probably less deadly than getting stabbed in the torso. But it just seems like an extremely risky technique.
It's used extensively Italian side sword techniques like Saviolo's during the late 15th to early 17th centuries to deflect a thrust or to knock the opponent's sword aside in a bind. It's quite effective and can throw the opponent off balance leaving them opening for a counter thrust or a cut.
Wasn't one of the reasons in Fiore to keep the left hand behind your back - actually, an importaint one - that that's where your dagger was? So you could use it should you close in, or lose your sword, or finish off an armoured guy you managed to tip over?
Hm, so would that make my point about reaching for the dagger with the left valid regardless of my oversight on the actual position in fiore? Goes to show, been a while since i had any serious practice...
The best place to put the off hand is behind a shield or buckler. Holding a loaded and ready pistol would be good too. Seriously though, I think in a real fight as opposed to a competition having any sort of object in your off hand could be useful - even a chair, scabbard, stick, or stone.
I find it interesting that you only speak of foot forward fighting styles in this video. Have you only done foot forward styles? Have you ever tried fighting styles that use a different starting position?
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Typically in the manuals and books like the expert sword mans companion, it's said that the off hand was used often as a last defense. Held by your left ear or over the heart or the throat, Donald Mcbane kept it by the side of his head. So to grab or stop some of the penetration from hitting a vital organ, if the blade has to thrust through your hand before hitting your chest, it could save your life. So aside from a modern aspect of holding the arm "out of the way" it has a defensive aspect from actual life or death dueling in history.
this channel is awesome
And here I was thinking that the rear hand up and behind your head was just used for drammatic effect. Every day I learn something you. Great videos, keep up the good work! :)
Writing in 1595, Vincentio Saviolo recommends:
"V. I will tell you, this weapon must bee used with a glove, and if a man should be without a glove, it were better to hazard a little hurt of the hand, thereby to become maister of his enemies Swoorde, than to breake with the swoord, and so give his enemy the advantage of him."
"Moreover, having the use of your lefte hand, and wearing a gantlet or glove of maile, your enemy shall no sooner make a thrust, but you shal be readye to catch his swoorde fast, and to command him at your pleasure: wherefore I wish you not to defend any thrust with the swoorde, because in so dooing you loose the point."
A few years later Giganti & Capo Ferro show the offhand being used only for gripping the opponent's hilt after a pass. Both show the empty off hand as held back on a straight lunge. I guess they were worried, at least in part, about getting it lopped off.
I started in medieval reenactment but have taken a few lessons in 17thC rapier where I was taught to have the hand in a guard position at chest height, hand horizontal, as with a thick glove you can bat away attacks. It got instinctual for me pretty much immediately and I started doing the same in medieval use (which I'll admit looked odd). It took one time for me to remember not to try and bat away an arming sword with my palm(and thinner gloves), but I still find it useful for grappling the enemy shield or weapon arm (perhaps made easier by the fighting style we use which is a bit more safety focused).
I've since started larp fighting and only now started moving the hand out of the way entirely as this system doesn't allow grappling(Larp is fun but a but a bit wimpy imo. Then again I'm less bruised at the end of the day). I've also found myself surprisingly good at it, and I'm able to hold my own against people with much more experience, we think its that I've had just enough proper lessons to know principles and have good footwork, but not enough to build the wrong muscle memory for the different styles (and starting with heavier swords probably helped too)
Once again, a fantastic video, very informative. Thank you for taking the time out to do these!
I was taught to keep your palm in your sight, in front of your face. One for guard as it's better to be hit in the back of the hand than your face, but also as offensive. It's already right there, so thrust that hand right at your opponent's face. They rear back or get poked in the eye, either way gives you an advantage.
Kilij uses the grapple stance with the left hand near the face as well.
i actually find putting my off hand on my shoulder and arm across my chest to help me while practicing as it helps in my control in my movements and I can use my off hand in aiding in my movements and direction of my blade from my shoulder
remember back when RAID: SHADPW LEDGENDS didnt take over every goddamn video
I think I once saw a woodcut with someone using a hankerchief loosely tied around the off leg to keep the off hand on the back.
Yes, that was done with certain styles of competitive/sporting swordsmanship - some 18th century British singlestick competitions used this rule.
I always just assumed the offhand was kept behind the body was to keep from losing track of where it was in combat and thus letting it become an easy target for the opponent.
I always have my offhand right next to my chin just like my fighting stance, out of the way and ready for grappling
0:52 OR IFF YE BE A PIRATE WITH A FLINT LOCK IN 'TOTHER 'AND YARRRRRRR!
Grat vid I know all too well to keep that off hand outa the way, I'm not ashamed to admit I caught myself with my own blade a few times. I would totally love to see a video about the pro's and cons of side on vs digonal or straight on stances. I can totally see the advantages of the side on stance but in my personal experience it can leave the liver and kidney prone to a strike if right handed, luckily I'm left handed so for me its just a kidney but its still a really bad day in toytown if ya get hit there.
"luckily I'm left handed so for me its just a kidney but its still a really bad day in toytown if ya get hit there.".. Then it would be a kidney and a spleen exposed
Is there any historical evidence that an armored left hand was activly used for parrying? -and how about old pistols they had quite a long barrel, which could be used as well.
Yes to both. The sword and left-hand gauntlet was certainly a recognised weapon combination and techniques are detailed in the Anonymous Bolognese treatise often known as 'Anonimo Bolognese'. The use of the pistol in the left hand to parry is detailed in an 18th century naval treatise.
Jonathan Allen Yes mailed gloves for the left hand seem to be quite well documented in the 16th-17thC. Though of course these things were probably only useful if you were expecting a fight, as I don't imagine that many men went around wearing them on a daily basis. Or maybe thy did!
scholagladiatoria I wonder if the hand placement may have been dictated by the school's use of off-hand weapons. For example, if the school included dagger, buckler, lantern, cloak, etc., in the off-hand, did they also tend to keep the hand more forward in single-sword style, so as not to drastically change the form for the student when switching from one discipline to another? (I hope that makes sense)
scholagladiatoria Gotta ask about limb protection. Would say a lonngsword user wear a full arm protection with shoulder pad on their main arm or both arms? Or a rapier user with buckler/dagger combo? Because wearing full arm protections looks restrictive correct me if I'm wrong.
wanadeena In civilian swordsmanship there is generally no protection worn, just clothes.
It happened to me as well many times to push away thrusts with my off hand (it's not that hard indeed) and repost immediately. good vid =)
Context,Balance and Inneuendo: the Matt Easton Story
Very good videos! Can you talk about mace and club? Greetings from México.
In Johannes Lecküchner's "Kunst des Messerfechtens" (1478) you can find:
"And firstly, you should fence with one hand with the Messer and you should have the other one on the back. If you want to fight with the empty hand, as in Messer-taking, grasping, clenching the arms etc., you should turn the hand from the back to the chest when you want to perform something on him on the inside over the arm."
Yes, the German messer treatises seem to have put the arm behind the back as standard, so it goes back at least the the 14th century, probably a lot earlier.
loving your videos and just subscribed to your channel, but I think more credit should be given to a hand in the shielding position; vary much so when your forearm is wrapped in a cloak. been watching your videos. when i am sparing with my friends the left hand forward is an easy target, but become vary practical when going for a grapple.
also I am sword and shield type of guy, and the hard forward feels really natural to me. Often I don't get to bring out a shield, but a smaller sword in that off hand is good for blocking.
It should be noted that I don't like sparing, but prefer to do group fights, and in a group fight is their really a safe place to put a hand?
Having some experience with a russian sabre I find the positiong of my left arm behind the back the most comfortable.
I have no experience with saber techniques so I'm not qualified to make a judgement on how hand positioning would affect the proper use of a saber, but I always thought that placing your hand on the your lower back would make your shoulders ridged and stiff. Would you mind describing your own experience for me, I'm interested in knowing from someone who's been shown to do it properly
Why do you think in Meyer's Dussacks the Hand kind of follows the guard positions? After all this reasoning in the video, I wonder if I should just put it away instead
I keep seeing a fictional character who always fought with a Long Sword wielded one-handed and kept his left hand behind his back. The first time Swords were tangled, he'd "Sucker-Punch" with a heretofore hidden foot long dagger he'd been keeping his hand on behind his back.
I'm all in favor of so-called "Dirty Tricks" in fighting, but I can't imagine that working at all well, except in very unusual circumstances. Comments?
What if one occasionally threw something left handed? That should at least keep your client distracted.
.....RVM45
That's actually a street knife trick as well.
People approach you with the body slightly tilted and one hand hidden to maximize surprise and ability to stab. In fact, if they're brandishing a knife out in front of them, they usually mean "go away." A knife held back means "don't leave until I'm done, please."
I've also read a case study in Baltimore which involved a knife stashed at an angle in the rear pocket. It was pulled very quickly and used to stab an assailant 2 times before the assailant realized there was a knife. I've read another study which involved a policeman dealing with a rowdy person in the drunk tank who produced a knife from behind their back and cut up the officer's hands and arms very badly before the officer realized that there had to be a knife around because he was bleeding.
What I think makes this effective, though I don't know about the fictional character you speak of, is that people in mortal danger often have tunnel vision due to the effects of the fight-or-flight response. Thus, a knife suddenly produced, especially if it was hidden and is brought out to the side from behind the back, may not be visible due to being outside the tunnel walls.
Trevor Johnson Yeah, that's one reason that they make some fighting Knives with black blades-the blade is almost invisible at night-or so I'm told.
I'm just not sure, given the reach difference between even a longish Knife and a Sword that counting on bringing in a sucker punch with a heretofore hidden Knife is all that great a tactic.
I have often remarked that most Gun play and handling in movies and on TV was arrant nonsense. Now that I'm learning even a little about Sword handling, I see that they're just as ignorant there.
The fictional character that I referred to was "Methos" the oldest Immortal on the "Highlander" TV Series. Haven't rewatched those old shows lately. I'm sure that they're filled with egregious Sword Handling-but I used to enjoy them a decade or so ago.
.....RVM45
RVM451
Ah. I watched a few of those but I dunno about how real it was. I do know that pulling a knife out from someplace in the middle of a fight is a very deadly tactic.
One thing you might consider, however, is that you have to be within touching range to get a really good draw-cut. People do come that close, and that's how I was trained in the smattering of kenjutsu that I've studied. I also remember some of the accounts of duels where the combatants did exactly what you're talking about. One person got run through, and basically closed onto the sword, pulled out a dagger, and played 18 holes on the other person. With the sword still through them, I might add. Swordfights could get VERY close and personal, even duels.
Thnx Sir Matt for this Video..... Finally i knew the reasons of putting the left hand behind the hip or the back... But i have got a question:
Eastern Nations like Egyptian Mamluks , Persians and Indians of the 17-19th centuries used sabers (like the shamshir , the tulwar and the kilij )but i have never seen them putting their hands back while fighting despite their weapons were somewhat similair to their European counterparts ( i mean both used curved sabers)
thnx for answering :)
Eastern bladed weapons like the tulwar, shamshir and kilij are much more curved than European sabers and usually somewhat heavier as well. Consequently using the off-hand on your hip to balance would be less effective as more momentum is going forward and making your lunge/recovery too slow, so you need a different fighting style to accommodate for that.
Well it's not really possible for me to answer, as there are only a few treatises from Egypt and Persia ( www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14678 ) and they don't seem to give that level of detail. Usually the sword in these areas was used with the shield or buckler in the left hand. When the sword was used alone, it seems that the left hand was held in various positions, some of which are mentioned in this video and shown also in European sources.
I really appreciated reading your answer thnx
Wunel
Thnx For answering:)
VishnuZutaten
Thank u so much for sending i really enjoyed watching the video
:)
Why is grappling no longer an issue in modern sword fighting? Convention?
Generally speaking it's considered a safety issue. I can't speak for HEMA, which at least studies grappling in the context of swordsmanship, but I can speak for modern sport fencing and the SCA.
In sport fencing, it's more or less little more than convention. It isn't even studied, as any touch that isn't from the point of the foil/epee or sabre blade, it's an automatic penalty (grappling is a pretty surefire way to be disqualified). I've asked several instructors and the standard response is that it was deemed unsafe and unsportsmanlike when the conventions of modern fencing were being determined.
In the SCA it's not done solely for safety reasons. Most SCA combat is done on open ground, without nothing to cushion a fall but whatever armor you're wearing (and if you've ever fallen wearing mail, you'll understand why it's a safety issue). As such, it's generally considered safer to get cracked in the ribs with a weapon (or weapon simulator depending on your group) than to get kicked in the back of the knee and brought down backwards when wearing armor.
The big problem I have with the left hand is trying to resist the urge to try and block incoming cuts with it. Keeping control of instinct is difficult, and I've given my opponents a LOT of points because of it. :)
Yes, it's the natural response - which is why many victims of knife attacks get a lot of wounds on their forearms and hands. Better a cut in the arm than in the neck I guess!
scholagladiatoria I've heard the phrase "bone shield" used in some modern combatives-style martial arts to describe this. It ain't pretty, or preferred, but as you said, better in the hand than the neck.
In my experience it only takes one session of trying this against medieval arming swords to break you of the habbit. :D
My experience is pretty much half longsword, half arming sword - and I still keep doing it! One day I will learn. ;)
Off topic, but I have a question that has been on my mind ever since I became interested in medieval arms and armor, and fencing systems--
One of my all time favorite movie sword duels was Westley vs Inigo Montoya in the wonder film _The Princess Bride_
My question is, though I know they used exaggerated stage fencing in the scene, the better to look flashy onscreen--
but when they are talking about the techniques they are using, like _"Bonetti's Defense"_ , which I've researched and understand to be a real defensive fencing system created by swordmaster Rocco Bonetti, are they actually using any of those techniques in the fight at all?
do you have a video about grip of sabre. I fenced Sabre in college, but my (copy) civil war sabre is a lot heavier. Use of thumb and forefinger grip doesn't seem to work as well with the heavier sword.
You basically just have to get used to the weight, it works, just not as easily as modern saber. Alternatively, you can use a “thumbs up” grip, which is seen in British military saber.
3:48 :O King fu film sound effect..?
I have never hit myself in the hand, but: I once while trying to show someone a cut which involved a small sidestep bumped into a low wall i had forgotten was there and hit myself in the head.
This video made me wonder. Have you ever looked into the connection between HEMA and the Filipino Martial Arts? Could they by any chance have been influenced by backsword fighting or do you think their live hand was developed independently?
I have wanted to look more into FMA for a long time, but never really had the time or opportunity. I do think though that many martial arts come to similar conclusions on how to do things, without necessarily having influenced each other directly. There are only a limited number of ways to sensibly use certain types of weapon, after all.
I've heard that during Spain's conquest of the Philippines, Spanish swordsmen held their own, and Filipinos added some elements from the rapier and dagger to their existing fighting styles. The big emphasis was on the cut due to machete style tools they carried at the time for agricultural reasons. So the Filipino systems are a combination of Kuntao (Hokkien Chinese martial arts), copied parts of Spanish fencing, and the systems already there.
scholagladiatoria I have been into FMA for quite some time. It's interesting to note that in Filipino Stick/Blade fighting, the off hand is always kept at the chest so that it becomes easy to grapple the opponent's weapon hand away when receiving a cut or to try a disarm move. Glad to see that HEMAs also had a similar concept. :)
Bob Miplace It seems the Filipinos drew a lot from the spanish "Destreza" or "La verdadera Destreza" style of fencing.
scholagladiatoria Maybe you could start your research into FMA by reading some Spanish "La Verdadera Destreza" Manuals. Many footwork and blade concepts are similar between the two arts. (It's no wonder, since the Spanish had a strong presence in the Philipines for a loooong time.)
i was just wondering... have you ever knocked over your camera while recording? :D
Not yet. I'm not as close to it as it may seem.
scholagladiatoria I await the day you knock down your camera.
scholagladiatoria how close do you actually stand to the camera and what kind of camera do you use? I stranded my camera one but the picture didn't seem as good when I moved back.
+scholagladiatoria I keep wondering every now and then how much space you have there for everything you do.
If you are wearing gauntlets, could you block incoming sword attacks with your hands and forearms like you would block punches in an unarmed fight?
The technique he demonstrates seems like it should be more of a last resort than something to build your stance and style from. I mean I get it, a backsword has a blunt side, and a smallsword might be all blunt save the point so you might be able to do it without damaging your hand. And even if you get cut, you might still be able to avoid getting hit with the thrust and a handwound is probably less deadly than getting stabbed in the torso. But it just seems like an extremely risky technique.
Silver's techniques (at around 4:40) let you deflect thrusts only, but very handily. I'd stay away from blocking cuts & thrusts outright, though.
It's used extensively Italian side sword techniques like Saviolo's during the late 15th to early 17th centuries to deflect a thrust or to knock the opponent's sword aside in a bind. It's quite effective and can throw the opponent off balance leaving them opening for a counter thrust or a cut.
Wasn't one of the reasons in Fiore to keep the left hand behind your back - actually, an importaint one - that that's where your dagger was? So you could use it should you close in, or lose your sword, or finish off an armoured guy you managed to tip over?
Sorry no. Fiore did not keep the left hand behind the back (he has it in front of the groin) and he shows the dagger worn at the left side! :-)
Hm, so would that make my point about reaching for the dagger with the left valid regardless of my oversight on the actual position in fiore? Goes to show, been a while since i had any serious practice...
The best place to put the off hand is behind a shield or buckler. Holding a loaded and ready pistol would be good too. Seriously though, I think in a real fight as opposed to a competition having any sort of object in your off hand could be useful - even a chair, scabbard, stick, or stone.
I grip my stiff johnson with my left hand, and use it as a second weapon...
I find it interesting that you only speak of foot forward fighting styles in this video. Have you only done foot forward styles? Have you ever tried fighting styles that use a different starting position?
why not duel wield another saber in case the first one breaks? heck, why not keep a third saber held in your teeth
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