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Cine1, 2, 3, 4...What's The Difference?!
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- Опубликовано: 26 июл 2017
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Have you ever wondered what the difference is between the four cine profiles available in the Sony Alpha cameras? I think most Alpha camera users are familiar with the pretty obvious differences between SLOG2 and 3 profiles compared with all the others, but at first glance the cine profiles may all seem quite similar. So I thought it was high time I...and in turn you guys, learn about these four profiles.
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I wanted to find out which has the most dynamic range, which is the most contrasty and in what situation you would use one profile over the others...enjoy and I hope you find it helpful
Please leave your thoughts in the comments below, let's help each other out and shoot better video together
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In case you were wondering, this video was graded with Vellichor LUTs, check them out here bit.ly/2JaUWG3 (By Ricardo Sousa)
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I hope you guys find this helpful, PP settings were set to 0 for everything and I used the Cinema colour space...enjoy :)
Enzo Vera that would be awesome subtitles in Spanish saludos Harv from Puerto Rico
+Eduardo Pérez I'll give this some thought :)
Harv Video/Audio Stuff Hi harv! I have posted a question below - can you help me? Love your videos :)
Hey is there a reason you used the Cinema color space?
Great video and very informative for my needs. One question for you that I have is for indoor video if just using my camera as a webcam replacement should I just leave PP off or leave it on CINE3?
I never NEVER comment on vids like these. But I genuinely feel like you actually give a shit. Being a cinematographer I know how long and borish these vids are to make. But I really appreciated your input. This is valuable info for those of us who have recently made the switch to Sony mirrorless. There's next to no info from Sony about this stuff. Anyway. Thanks for doing what you do.
+Dustin Kirkendall many thanks :) really appreciate it!
Cine2 is the same curve as Cine1 but it's compressed to fit into the 0-100 range. If you shoot Cine1 and bring down the whites it'll recover some of the blown highlights and look the same as Cine2.
meaning the opposite of what he said, cine1 has the most DR
exactly. a bit suprised that a person of his expertise had made such a simple mistake@@CarlosVixil
So if you alter cine 1 you can get it to look like cine 2. unaltered. What is the use in that?
@@biteme8905 dynamic range
Edit: same logic different question, “why shoot in log if you’re gonna make it look like rec709?”
I use cine 4 for daytime and cine 2 for night time as a general rule, it seems to work well
Are you switching to the color modes when working in Cine 2 or Cine 4?
I always thought Cine4 would be better for night... you don't need the extra in the bright areas and the shots seem less noisy in dark areas with Cine4.
that makes absolutely no sense lol
I agree, I have a Sony FS 700R and when shooting mostly outdoor shoot I use this following profile setting in Outdoors / high contrast situations and to control the shadow details : Gamma: Cine 4 , Black Level: +4, Black Gamma: Middle, +4, Knee: 90, Slope: +2, Color Mode: Pro, Level 8, Color Level:-2, Detail: -4, and The rest is default.
For lowlight situations believe it or not, I turn to Cine1 at a setting of Gamma: Cine1, Black level: 0, Black Gamma: Middle, 0, Knee: 90, Slope: +2, Color Mode: Pro, Level: 8, Color Level: 0, Detail: -4, and the rest is as is. I used the cinegama1 for lowlight not cine2 because I love how it looks into the shadows.
Anyways awesome test video. Thank you for posting, keep them coming it motivates millians.
Thanks for sharing! Quick question, I've been playing around with the details and I noticed your keeping yours ar -4. Is there a reason to keep the detail so low?
YES! Finally someone confirming what I believe (Cine 2 has more DR than Cine 4).
Everybody says that Cine 4 has more dynamic range, but I found that it doesn't hold as much information in the highlights and it makes skintones look unnatural with yellow spots...
Cine 2 makes the smoothest skintones, and is the closest Sony profile to EOSHD Pro Colors (based on my experience).
Also, the lowest ISO setting with Cine 2 is 100, while Cine 4 is 200.
I just made a fishing trip movie using my modified version of EOSHD Pro Colors (with SLOG2) and my Genustech Eclipse variable ND filter to control the depth of field... and it looks AMAZING!
Once color graded, and with the addition of film grain... it seriously looks like a real film camera (I could almost insert a new scene in JAWS lol).
The EOSHD Pro Colors makes the skintones looks way better and smoother (less sharp details like a real film camera) and the SLOG2 profile give me a lot of flexibility (HDR).
I wonder what the results would have been if I was using EOSHD Pro Colors (with Cine 2) ... Of course, the image would be a little cleaner with ISO100, but I not sure if I would miss the extra DR that SLOG2 gives me.
Anyways... as always, great video Harv and thanks for sharing those tests! :)
Would love to watch that movie you were talking about and see for myself. Is it uploaded somwhere?
+David L'Abbée many thanks :) very insightful, I also use a profile that's loosely based on eoshd with slog2
+Daniel Ax Unfortunately, it is not... and probably won't ever be (family movie).
But I'm writing a short film that will be uploaded on RUclips and Vimeo, so you will be able to see what I mean.
Harv Video/Audio Stuff what's the profile settings :))
Cine 2 vs. Slog 2. That will be really cool.
+David Lekes I'll definitely give it some thought :)
Would you recommend the S-Gamut color mode when shooting in the Cine2 picture profile?
Harv, Have you done the Cine2 v. S-log2 comparison?
I tested those here- ruclips.net/video/T4-xK0ILYok/видео.html
Another great video Harv, I love how you tend to answer questions that people naturally have about these cameras. I would love for you to do another similar video in the context of low light comparisons and how they each handle noise at a "realistic" high ISO, not 250,000 but maybe between 20k-50k. Thanks for all the great content!
Hey Harv, I've shot in slog2 and cine4 for the most part. Im assuming you're in south England, me too. Could you recommend settings for a Cine2 profile. I also saw Cody Blue use Cine2 and get great results, he posted some settings but I'm interested in your take. Would you for example whack detail down to -7? Is -7 detail really zero sharpening or is it destructive in camera softening and +0 should be zero sharpening in camera. If you understand my point. Thanks, Michael Stonemason.
I did the same test and cine 4 even at higher base iso (200) keeps highlights better than cine2 (iso100) with the same exposure. The higher max level on cine 4 (109) allows me to recover even more higlights in post, meanwhile cine 2 has a hard cut on the whites (better for night scene I guess or if you dont want to edit a lot). Finally, if you mod black level on cine 4 you can achieve something really similar to slog2. I have my video test on youtube but only in spanish. I really love to see neardy tests so keep doing your stuff 🎉
What a great demonstration of the different Sony cine profiles. I really like the way you put things together, thanks!
Rocking good!!!...thanks for making the time to do these...some of the best and most useful vids on Sony PP!!!
Thanks for the video! I just conducted my own test, and found that out of all the gammas, Cine2 is also my favorite. I am now kicking myself because I have been shooting a lot in S-Log3. My test was specifically for low light. the S-Log footage was shot at ISO1600 and the Cine2 footage was shot at ISO640. I'm now going to try having both at ISO1600 but have skin tones at 60IRE. I'll post my result below.
Cine 4 looked like it had the most dynamic range... but thanks for this video. Will try Cine 2.
MGTEKNS cine 4 definitely has more dynamic range
If you're only looking at the highlights, then it seems so. Darker tones look more dynamic rangey in Cine2.
hlog better than all of them and has the best dynamic range
I think your audio is better than any other filmmaking channel's. #RealTalk
+Elite Lens Films thanks :) it's mainly down to the mic (akg c414)
2 G's for a mic, killin it!
Very helpful videos. Recently picked up a Sony a6300 and your channel has some great info. Subbed you yesterday but just wanted to say thanks.
I’ve done similar tests and also found Cine 2 to work best. I use it any time I don’t have an ND filter handy for Slog-2 and also for lower light situations.
This is really interesting. Using Cine profiles is somewhere in the middle between setting creative mode Std to contrast -3 (which still retains a lot of contrast) and using Slog2 for maximum "flat" look (which is obviously the absolute best in terms of DR, but takes more time).
What bothers me, however, is the way you have to work with these Cine gammas. I prefer shadow handling on Cine 1 and 2, but they always tend to look greyish and greyish-flat on the whole image. Can't really describe it properly. Cine 4 on the other hand is a lot easier to work with. What I did is I set black level to +10 on Cine4 and expose for the highlights with slight tweaks to exposure/shadows/colour saturation in post. That works quite well. I got to this when I was watching videos of people trying to fake S-Cinetone on A7 3rd generation bodies which involved Cine4, but somehow these guys even dialed black level down to -10 which for my feeling is really crazy because Cine4 already offers plenty of contrast.
After watching this I retested the profiles and got this:
Cine 2 has most overall DR
Cine 1/Cine 4 come second with DR.
The difference between the two is that Cine 1 has more shadow detail/less highlight detail while Cine 4 has more highlight detail/less shadow detail.
Harv, thank you for this, really clear insight and good tests. Best wishes to you
Super helpful thank you. Ive always been a cine 4 guy but never liked the digital look that that amount of contrast gave me. Now moved to cine 2 to a lower knee and its looking a load more cinematic in the highlights especially. Thanks
OMG Thanks for doing this. I've been shooting Cine4 with good results, but it's taken a lot of time just testing the various color spaces in Cine4 alone to get my 'look' right. Big time saver, Harv!
JamesFreire What settings did you eventually settle with?
Hi Rodney. Interestingly enough, i've been shooting in Slog2 with Sgamut3.cine . I shoot a lot in very high contrast and I found it works great and it's really not hard to shoot well with. I also use Film Convert and my post process is very fast now.
I strongly agree! Nice comparison.
Thanks for this. It's ow 2020 and I've just picked up a Sony A7S II for client work. Thanks for sharing this review. It's really helpful
Thanks for taking the time and effort to make these vids Harv! Recently subbed - love the channel :)
I shot solely cine2 at the suggestion around the web, but I'm finding that cine3 with a 90% manual knee at -3 slope, BlackGamma set to middle at +7, Black level at -10, R=+2, G=+4, B=+4, C=-1, M=+3, Y=-4 and Pro color boosted to +8 saturation, and a Phase reduction of -1 yield great out of camera footage that doesn't need grading. The noise levels seen with the lens cap on with cine2 and 4 are enough for me to stay away from them unless I plan to play in post. And if I'm going to do that, I might as well shoot slog2. Problem is, there just isn't enough data to push at 8bits with these cameras and we'd need the FS7 or better. Even the FS5 is limited unless shooting raw to a recorder.
Totally Agreed with you!! Although, i would also prefer Cine 2 for more dynamic range as harv said but the thing is that we have to deal with the noise too at the same time, for that personally, i think Cine 3 is the best option for me with Color Space either set to "Still" or "Pro", as it gives me the true colour which i am actually seeing through my naked eyes, many people set their color space to s.gamut, idk why, but what i noticed is, it doesn't give you that actual "RED" colour in your footage, it gives orangish kinda feel to it, which changes the look & feel of the footage totally. Anyways! different people, different perceptions!
Interesting settings. It looks like you're really raising the shadows with the Black Gamma and Black Level. Are you finding this setting good for both day and night shots?
the cine3 gamma is dark in the shadows, setting the Bgamma at 7 is a nice compromise and dropping the black level just gives me more punch. Movie gamma is better at night or in dark or evenly lit footage. It's only where you have extreme highlights in contrasty conditions that shadows get lost.
@@Teamriverz thanks for the reply!
I like Cine 4 because of the roll off. I raise the black level in camera. I strongly suggest, like Harv has said before, testing out all of the customizable PP settings in these sony cameras. It helps a ton. Create your own profile.
I enjoy how you break it down to simple shots of info 😉
Again, one awesome video Harv. :-)
- But what about the gamma? How do you set the Cine profiles up the best with all the other settings inside the profile settings?
As far as I am aware, Cine 1 has a 109 white limit threshold. So what looks like blown highlights is actually recoverable mostly (as long as it's not above 109%).
Very interesting video. Helped me in my understanding of different cine color picture profiles. Thanks
Wow, you really impressed me with this short and easy guide!
Was Cine2 set to Cinema or Pro? apparently that makes a lot of difference as well.
Great vid as always - will get testing Cine2 on my A7S.
Brilliant and always new things learned! Appreciate it Harv!
Just discovered this channel. It's wonderful. All the best.
+Sooraj S A means a lot, thank you :)
Harv Video/Audio Stuff Subbed :) Keep going!
You're the best! Thanks so much man, we all really really appreciate it.
This is so helpful. You are fantastic. Please keep doing what you are doing.
Excellent video/channel. Subscribed! However, one question here. Probably I am the one, lacking some basic knowledge here ;) Anyway: You say that cine1 clips the highlights. Actually, I always thought cine1 doesn't because it preserves the highlights up to 109% (superwhite). They are just clipped by your monitor or software or whatever. That's why actually cine1 preserves more highlight than cine2. You just need the right display and tools to work with them I thought. On the other hand, cine2 compresses the highlights, that's why they are looking better on a standard screen. >>> Probably I am totally wrong, but if you could help with an explanation, that would be awesome. :)
You really have the best and most helpful information. Cheers
Great work as always, Harv. Thanks!
This is super helpful and you explained it so well. Thank you so much!
Thank you for the video it's gonna help me a lot in my next projects!!
Thanks!!! I had been using Cine 4 but will give Cine 2 a shot instead (using with EOSHD pro color too).
CINE1 and CINE2 have the same dynamic range. CINE2 compresses everything so nothing goes above 100 IRE but cine1 makes use of the full 0-255 range going all the way up to 109 ire. CINE1 is for when you plan on editing in post and CINE2 is a direct to air gamma
Really agere with you. Nice video man
Great stuff man. Definitely helpful content. Keep it up!
The best way to deal with all these profiles and their settings is to view changes on a monitor with decent full screen waveforms. Then you can clearly see what changes are happening and actually just choose different settings in the field.
I have been using Cine2 since I did my own tests... I was using Cine4 because of an old PB recommendation with the original A7s and also MJ has expressed his love for Cine4 but yeah, once I finally tested for myself it just didn't look good. To be fair, perhaps my exposure wasn't perfect trying to do a quick test on a sunny day without ND hahaha but it is nice to see you came to the same conclusion as I but you also made me hate Cine4 less... I can see how more professional/experienced users can get great results with Cine4 but for me, its 2 all the way :) Thanks, Harv!
Can you accurately say you don't like Cine 4? Hard to say if you didn't expose properly correct?
I was being extra critical of myself, yes... I did expose it properly, my metering was dancing around 0 and .03 plus I tested Cine 1, 2, 3 & 4 all within minutes under the same exposure at the same scene. I remember being shocked at how much I disliked Cine 4 because it was what was recommended to me and I had been using it for weeks and dealing with it but I always felt the look was a bit harsh. I also noticed more zebras would appear in the sky when switching to 4 (just slightly) and I shot it again slight under exposing it but it wasn't any better.
Cine 1 has the most dynamic range, let me explain: Straight out of camera Cine 4 does indeed have more dynamic range. It does give more details in the highlights but at the cost of more contrast, meaning less details in the shadows. If you try to recover details in the shadows in post production there will be noise. However, if you expose Cine 1 for the same amount of details in the highlights just as Cine 4, the shadows will come just as dark as in Cine 4 straight out of camera without the need to raise shadows in post production.
If you don't plan to edit and just want the image straight out of camera, then Cine 4 is the best option in my opinion. However, if you plan to edit in post production, Cine 1 gives you plenty more of information both in highlights and in shadows. You can always emulate the look of Cine 4 by adding more contrast in Cine 1. You cannot, however, emulate the look of Cine 1 in Cine 4, at least not without noise.
Another benefit of Cine 1 is that its lower ISO is 100, while Cine 4 is 200. Although is not a drastic change it will increase noise in some specific scenarios. Cine 2 works the same as Cine 1 but with a video output signal of 100%. In case you don't want to lower the highlights from 109% to 100% as you would in Cine 1. Cine 3 has less dynamic range than Cine 4 so I'd skip this one completely.
Thanks for the help! Great work!
Harv - I would love if you did a video on how to color grade after using cine profiles and slog!!
Do one for lowlight Harv.
Awesome stuff Harv, I guess the next question (and possibly a video? ) is how does Cine4 grade compared to S-Log2 or Cine2 :)
Hi,I regular watched your tutorial I just want to know which picture profile best for cine 1,2,3,4
Harv your videos are top notch man! You should make a video on how to match the Sony Fs5 with the sony A7RII, i can't seem to figure it out
I know this is old. Could you clarify what your color managment was if using davinci? There are no presets for Sony Cine's. Still great job here.
Came here and found what i was searching for. Thx!! Now i will have to do some practicing. Greetz from germany Hamburg. ❤️Carpe
Thank you for your great videos, keep going!
Another great video, thanks. :-) I am so happy to have found your channel. It's my favorite when it comes to video advice :-)
I did a quick test also (I have the original a7s) and found similar results. I also really liked cine 2. It also seemed to have more dynamic range than cine 1...But I am confused why cine 1s being able to go to 109% isn't an advantage with regards to dynamic range?!
You really hope it was helpful? Even as a regular Sony shooter, I found your tests as well as your narrative extremely helpful, and more so than any other explanation of the Cine profiles I have seen. Also, I back off detail to -7 and saturation the same for Cine 2 and 4. Saw that you leave everything at 0. Don't you feel that gives you less control of sharpening in post and too much baked in color? Great job on the video. Thanks for posting it.
Cine 2 is becoming my go to, unless I'm shooting in less challenging scenarios, in which case I just use a standard creative style and turn picture profiles off. For my a6400 and 8 bit in general, this has worked better for me than slog2, which I really like, but sometimes it's too much of a battle. ;)
Nice and straightforward, thank you!!!
Thank you for all those informations !!
thank you!
Does it make sense to use Cine2 with S-Gamut?
I’d say no, they’re not designed to go together. You’d have to do a colour space transform without touching the gamma 😕
Thanks a lot for the video. Explained really well.
This was really nice. Thank you for this.
I'm pretty sure I'm blind, but I couldn't tell the difference at all between the four. Only in the black and white areas a little bit between Cine 3-Cine 4 and Cine 1-Cine 2
These videos are awesome. Love your "scientific" comparisons. I was just using Cine 4 all the time because everyone said it was best. Turns out that's not really true after all. 😁
Would have been even better if you had included slog in the comparisons too. Just to see how much of a difference it makes in comparison to Cine 2.
Hi, thanks for an interesting video. I see that your'e an expert on picture profiles. I have a problem, recently i bought a camera sony A7ii, which turns out has a very big problem in video mode - moire and aliasing. can you recommend something on how to reduce these problems in my videos? while testing i thought that cine1, cine2, somewhat reduce the problem, but very slightly, maybe I should tweak the actual profile? maybe it would reduce them even more? for example reduce detail, sharpness or something? would apprecieate your ideas, thanks.
Hi, hmm yes reducing sharpness in the profile was my first thought as well. Other than that there’s very little you can do to avoid it (other than actively avoiding filming things than produce moire patterns etc). The aliasing is odd though 🤔 many thanks
my bad, maybe it's just moire..
What resolution are you shooting at? Those Super35 resolutions use the entire sensor to capture image and they should reduce the moire effect.
Thanks for the video
I've always been too lazy to try this myself
Do you find Cine4 'bakes in' more colour as opposed to, say, SLOG2?
Yeah, but that could just be due to cine4 being a linear gamma
Well explained
Very helpful thanks for posting!
Freakin love your videos, man!
Thanks my friend, there's lots more coming! :)
Hi Harv - and all other sony-geeks :)
I prefer cine 4, because so many luts are design for that profile. Would you still apply a cine4 lut to cine 2 footage?
Thank you Harv for great videos!
Hi, yes definitely. The curves aren't so different, should be fine :) you can just make minor tweaks after applying the lut
Where would you guys find these LUTs? I use FinalCut X for my editing and some grading, it know SLog2 natively, but not the others I believe.
Great content! I have been watching all of your videos on the a7III, as I am waiting for mine to come in the mail in the next 2 weeks. I have a question about the video profiles. I have a very good understanding of what Log profiles are what they do to the image and why you would use them, but what is Cine? Are they too, technical a log format? Would it have been just as valid for Sony to call cine1 and cine4, S-log4 and S-log5?
I see plenty of S-Log2 and S-Log3 to Rec.709 Luts for getting a "corrected" image, but hardly any for cine.
To simplify
1.) Is it just Log?
2.) Is it just trying to emulate a film stock?
3.) Where can I read more on this? I have searched google and everything only covers Log.
what color modes to use with cine profiles ?
Can you make a video, where you show us your export settings for videos. I have a7s and my vids on youtube looks terrible. Ofc in premiere everything is ok.
I had the same problems as you , try to learn about export settings , are you recording in avchd ? Mp4? Xavcs? I found that avchd has less size and writes to 25mbs so you have to export 25mbs to get the real quality of your footage. But for RUclips , it compress a lot so better export 16mbps . Try it . But now I’m recording in XAVCS that writes more than 50mbps so that means more data in my frame ,
Super helpful. Thanks!
Liking your videos. I understand that many people use Cin4 or Slog2 as common profiles. James Millers sells speciality luts for sony Cin4, Slog2/3 profiles. However a majority of special look LUTS sold are designed for REC709. So with Cin4 or Slog you have to transform the footage to REC709 before applying these LUTS. Profile PP3 and PP4 have a IUT709 picture profile mode which I am assuming is a form of REC709 that may be compatible with the vast majority of these REC709 LUTS sold. As a beginner my question is why is recording in Cin4 preferred to using IUT709? and if IUT709 is less work to use to apply Look LUTS to than CIN4 since it may be closer to REC709 footage?
Great help, Thank you
One need to under-expose by, say 10% IRE or 0.7/1 stop E.V. for Cine gammas, as theoretically, Cine Gammas are not 'logarithmic curves' but kinda f shaped curves and for the same standard exposure for Rec709, it records 10% under, which needs to be raised in post, meanwhile maintaining the highlight that was lost here in the test. It's kind of confusing and difficult to explain here. But Sony Manuals and references online should sufficiently validate.
Also using Sgamutcine3 color space should avoid the infamous green tint that sony sensors are ill-known for in the color grading space.
Which gamma works best for you when filming with Sony camera's?
Hadn't seen your comment. I concur and wrote similarly in my response...
Check my response above for good tips
Thaaaaaaaks so much! It's just I'm looking for. Thanks.
Thank you for the analysis. Very usefull.
What kind of basic LUT do you advise for cine2 or 4? (something like "Slog 2 to rec 709" for slog2 shootig profile).
Thanks!
Thank for this knowledge
Good stuff brooo
Which cine would you recommend for a new beauty beginner RUclips channel with no color grading In your opinion?
What you think about RUclipsr Cody Blue's Cine4 settings? I was searching for Sony Cine settings and his Sony settings kept popping up. My job at the new station is starting to swear by these settings for our Sony A7sii cameras. I tend to disagree with these settings. Can you review those Sony setting please and Thank you!!!
Hi Harv, love your videos! I have been shooting SLOG2 + 3 on the a7sii for most of my projects but there are times where being able to use auto ISO and lower ISO's is helpful. I just love the dynamic range of the SLOG profiles so much! Have you experimented with black levels etc while using a cine gammas for any increased dynamic range?
Pick a number, any number 1-4
I wanted to hear cine 2 was the best, everybody says it’s got the best dynamic range, but in this test cine 4 was better in shadows and highlights.
What pp# is cine 2 on the a7sii?
*Use s-gamut3 or cinema color mode with cine2 & cine4? And how do you feel about the comment below that said using cine4 during daytime and cine2 during night time? Curious to hear your opinion on that. I'm new to sony cameras as well.. just got my a7sii the other day lol.*
Wich one would you recommend for low light shoots?
So, with cine 2 which color mode is better cinema or s-gamut3 ?
thanks so much!
great! thank you for the test
have you test the slog from Sony ?
thank again
Whats the difference between cinema and pro color?