On the topic of likeability. I think it was essential that Paul be Sympathetic, and he generally was, in order to illustrate Herbert's warning about charismatic leaders. Herbert wasn't saying the problem was that the leader would turn out to be evil, or incompetent. Those are real risks, of course, but they are well known and well explored and retreading them in Dune would have masked Herbert's intended message. Paul is personally morale and an extremely capable ruler. His motives are sympathetic to anyone who has ever loved their family and friends . . . And it doesn't matter to the outcome. There is still a heinous toll in death and human suffering. The problem was that his Empire followed him BLINDLY. RELIGIOUSLY. A fervor that Paul and Alia could, at best, channel for their own purposes through careful effort but never truly control. They made a Messiah out of him and in the end reduced friends and comrades to creatures and fanatics.
@@Dularr He did indeed use them for his revenge. But the Sardaukar planned to genocide them as a potential competitor and threat anyways by that point. Paul's visions essentially revealed that any circumstance where the Freemen triumphed over the Sardaukar on Arrakis would be followed by the Jihad. Even if he died. He used them for his personal revenge, and they used him for his military knowledge, and before it was all over, they were all swallowed up in the forces of fanaticism, cult of personality, and unfolding history.
@@Bustermachine Visions the ultimate evil in the Dune universe. Repeating cycle of themes. While in the pervious cycle the creation of thinking machines with men who controlled them lead to disaster for humanity. In the current storyline it would be the creation of people with visions and the people who would control them would lead to disaster for humanity. With the ultimate solution was the creation of technology and people who could not be seen by visions. To paraphrase, "Man cannot create men with visions of other people."
I see it as if Paul is caught up in a Greek tragedy. The interesting difference is that he doesn't have many moral flaws, but the religion inherently has. The real Paul, with all his future predicting powers, is nothing more than a puppet, as long he is not willing to cast away his humanity, which he isn't.
I see it as if Paul is caught up in a Greek tragedy. The interesting difference is that he doesn't have many moral flaws, but the religion inherently has. The real Paul, with all his future predicting powers, is nothing more than a puppet, as long he is not willing to cast away his humanity, which he isn't.
I just finished reading Children of Dune about an hour ago, and your video encapsulates how I feel perfectly. I found the breakdown of Paul's messianic figure to be a brave and interesting character choice for Frank Herbert. Especially when you realize that this praised and beloved ruler of the universe willingly submitted to what would be an unkind tyrannical ruler. There was a quote in this book that really made me love the character of Paul Muad'Dib. The Preacher told the group gathered below Alia's temple; "I come only to ask a simple question," The Preacher said. "Is Muad'Dib's death to be followed by the moral suicide of all men? Is that the inevitable aftermath of a messiah?" His cautionary tale of the horrors of elected godhood is something I doubt I will ever find again. At least not as profoundly written as this series.
I find it interesting that you expected such an (inter)personal read. To me the human factor becomes more and more sidelined in the story the further you get, a necessity of knowingly being caught up in the religious, cultural, political and philosophical machinations of the the universe. It is the very thing Paul eventually runs from, where Leto accepts its endlessly cruel responsibility and the payment of an ultimate price endlessly more worse than death. It is the strain these religious circumstances push on to the involved, eventually corrupting them and taking away their control and the best part of their humanity.
God Emperor is the true ending of the Dune story because of Leto II and it also shows the entire point behind the series. Heretics and Chapterhouse are a new story with similar ideas, but without God Emperor the Dune series feels incomplete.
I think you missed the point of the entire book. Leto is not a “tyrannical leader”. The idea of the Golden Path is to forcibly save humanity by scattering genes to all corners of the universe. And how can you say the scene between Leto and Paul isn’t moving? Paul is begging Leto not to merge with the sand trout and become a human-worm. Paul isn’t stupid! He knows exactly what Leto has in mind and doesn’t want it. Any of it. But he’s defeated by his own son. How much more moving can you get than that? Abomination is a Bene Gesserit term. Nobody trusts Jessica. She’s a a BG and is still working for their interests. That’s why nobody is too happy to see her.
Nice. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I too have been enjoying the series. I’m on to god emperor now! Would love your thoughts on the rest of the books. Thanks amigo!
I really didn't enjoy the ending of the book. The timing was all wrong and the book climaxes a whopping 610 page book with the main 2 characters' fate being summed up in 10 pages. Feel like i wasted my time reading this book for such a predictable and unsatisfying ending.
It's a recurring theme in the Dune books too. He stretch, stretch, stretched the plot out and then rushed the ending in just about every book after Children as well.
"I don't think there are any clear cut good guys or bad guys in this" - I disagree. I think Duncan Idaho is the true "hidden" hero of Dune, which I feel is a stroke of genius by Frank Herbert. Duncan represents the best of human potential... he's an exemplary man that lived and died by his honor. In each and every Dune book, you will find a Duncan Idaho doing his job, being the best of what Humanity could offer, and yet nowhere as powerful as the protagonists of each book. He dies a hero in book one while fighting several enemies to save Paul and Lady Jessica (Paul’s mother) from assured death. Even when Duncan turns rogue and (Spoilers!) kills the God Emperor, he unleashes a new human era of freedom. It is incredibly sad that we never got to see Duncan’s true, fullest potential, as Herbert died before finishing the last book of his masterpiece. What we know is that he had grand plans for our hero, as we see him heading off from book 6 with bells and whistles and up against yet the most intimidating villains we had ever seen in Dune, villains that have never lost yet lose a hand against Idaho’s genius.
A grate video, as always! Just finished the book and I completely agree with your opinion on it. Leto's transformation got me so excited, but his actions are, just as you said, very grayish. Thank you for a great review!
On the topic of likeability. I think it was essential that Paul be Sympathetic, and he generally was, in order to illustrate Herbert's warning about charismatic leaders.
Herbert wasn't saying the problem was that the leader would turn out to be evil, or incompetent. Those are real risks, of course, but they are well known and well explored and retreading them in Dune would have masked Herbert's intended message.
Paul is personally morale and an extremely capable ruler. His motives are sympathetic to anyone who has ever loved their family and friends . . . And it doesn't matter to the outcome. There is still a heinous toll in death and human suffering.
The problem was that his Empire followed him BLINDLY. RELIGIOUSLY. A fervor that Paul and Alia could, at best, channel for their own purposes through careful effort but never truly control.
They made a Messiah out of him and in the end reduced friends and comrades to creatures and fanatics.
Except Paul was a predator using the Fremen for his personal revenge.
@@Dularr He did indeed use them for his revenge. But the Sardaukar planned to genocide them as a potential competitor and threat anyways by that point.
Paul's visions essentially revealed that any circumstance where the Freemen triumphed over the Sardaukar on Arrakis would be followed by the Jihad. Even if he died.
He used them for his personal revenge, and they used him for his military knowledge, and before it was all over, they were all swallowed up in the forces of fanaticism, cult of personality, and unfolding history.
@@Bustermachine Visions the ultimate evil in the Dune universe. Repeating cycle of themes. While in the pervious cycle the creation of thinking machines with men who controlled them lead to disaster for humanity. In the current storyline it would be the creation of people with visions and the people who would control them would lead to disaster for humanity. With the ultimate solution was the creation of technology and people who could not be seen by visions. To paraphrase, "Man cannot create men with visions of other people."
I see it as if Paul is caught up in a Greek tragedy. The interesting difference is that he doesn't have many moral flaws, but the religion inherently has. The real Paul, with all his future predicting powers, is nothing more than a puppet, as long he is not willing to cast away his humanity, which he isn't.
I see it as if Paul is caught up in a Greek tragedy. The interesting difference is that he doesn't have many moral flaws, but the religion inherently has. The real Paul, with all his future predicting powers, is nothing more than a puppet, as long he is not willing to cast away his humanity, which he isn't.
I just finished reading Children of Dune about an hour ago, and your video encapsulates how I feel perfectly. I found the breakdown of Paul's messianic figure to be a brave and interesting character choice for Frank Herbert. Especially when you realize that this praised and beloved ruler of the universe willingly submitted to what would be an unkind tyrannical ruler. There was a quote in this book that really made me love the character of Paul Muad'Dib. The Preacher told the group gathered below Alia's temple;
"I come only to ask a simple question," The Preacher said. "Is Muad'Dib's death to be followed by the moral suicide of all men? Is that the inevitable aftermath of a messiah?"
His cautionary tale of the horrors of elected godhood is something I doubt I will ever find again. At least not as profoundly written as this series.
Leto two though :D
Poor Duncan Idaho 😢
It was so sad to see him die, but when you understand his motives it becomes even sadder...
@@maxpokhiton8242 I think he is the true hero of the saga. He is the only character that I felt was selfless.
@@raytoons i agree!
I find it interesting that you expected such an (inter)personal read. To me the human factor becomes more and more sidelined in the story the further you get, a necessity of knowingly being caught up in the religious, cultural, political and philosophical machinations of the the universe. It is the very thing Paul eventually runs from, where Leto accepts its endlessly cruel responsibility and the payment of an ultimate price endlessly more worse than death. It is the strain these religious circumstances push on to the involved, eventually corrupting them and taking away their control and the best part of their humanity.
And a satisfying conclusion to the series entirely, as far as I'm concerned.
God Emperor is where Herbert makes his real thesis, though
God Emperor is the true ending of the Dune story because of Leto II and it also shows the entire point behind the series. Heretics and Chapterhouse are a new story with similar ideas, but without God Emperor the Dune series feels incomplete.
If U read the dune encyclopaedia they go into detail what happened to every character in the first few dune books
I think you missed the point of the entire book. Leto is not a “tyrannical leader”. The idea of the Golden Path is to forcibly save humanity by scattering genes to all corners of the universe. And how can you say the scene between Leto and Paul isn’t moving? Paul is begging Leto not to merge with the sand trout and become a human-worm. Paul isn’t stupid! He knows exactly what Leto has in mind and doesn’t want it. Any of it. But he’s defeated by his own son. How much more moving can you get than that?
Abomination is a Bene Gesserit term. Nobody trusts Jessica. She’s a a BG and is still working for their interests. That’s why nobody is too happy to see her.
Another nice review. Will you be doing God Emperor (my favorite of the Frank Herbert series) next?
Yeah, I definitely want to but I’m not even half way through it yet! Haha. Thanks for watching.
Liked and subscribed! Really enjoyed this video.
Thanks!
Great video. What’s the name of the song that you used? It reminds me of the Oblivion soundtrack
I wrote all of the music for these videos. No name yet, but I hope to release it all separately if people are interested. Thanks for watching.
Nice. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I too have been enjoying the series. I’m on to god emperor now! Would love your thoughts on the rest of the books. Thanks amigo!
Going to try and review all of them. Thanks for watching!
I really didn't enjoy the ending of the book. The timing was all wrong and the book climaxes a whopping 610 page book with the main 2 characters' fate being summed up in 10 pages. Feel like i wasted my time reading this book for such a predictable and unsatisfying ending.
It's a recurring theme in the Dune books too. He stretch, stretch, stretched the plot out and then rushed the ending in just about every book after Children as well.
A predictable ending resulting in the main character transforming into a sterile-near-immortal-God-Alien-hybrid-tyrant? IJS.
You can call it a lot of things but if you predicted the ending, then your predictions are fucking weird
"I don't think there are any clear cut good guys or bad guys in this" - I disagree. I think Duncan Idaho is the true "hidden" hero of Dune, which I feel is a stroke of genius by Frank Herbert. Duncan represents the best of human potential... he's an exemplary man that lived and died by his honor. In each and every Dune book, you will find a Duncan Idaho doing his job, being the best of what Humanity could offer, and yet nowhere as powerful as the protagonists of each book. He dies a hero in book one while fighting several enemies to save Paul and Lady Jessica (Paul’s mother) from assured death. Even when Duncan turns rogue and (Spoilers!) kills the God Emperor, he unleashes a new human era of freedom. It is incredibly sad that we never got to see Duncan’s true, fullest potential, as Herbert died before finishing the last book of his masterpiece. What we know is that he had grand plans for our hero, as we see him heading off from book 6 with bells and whistles and up against yet the most intimidating villains we had ever seen in Dune, villains that have never lost yet lose a hand against Idaho’s genius.
A grate video, as always! Just finished the book and I completely agree with your opinion on it. Leto's transformation got me so excited, but his actions are, just as you said, very grayish. Thank you for a great review!
You still have Duncan in God Emperor of Dune. Which you probably know by now if you have read it.
Yup 👍🏻