I’ve gotten a lot of comments about my misinterpretation of the Paul/Stilgar h*tler convo, so I want to clear things up as a pinned comment. To give further context than what I already provided in the video, Paul is telling Stilgar to learn about brutal dictators and warlords of the Old Earth to set him on a path of self-reflection about the holy war they’re currently waging. Part of Paul’s intention is to show Stilgar the error and horror of their ways by likening their campaign to that of H*tler. However, I still stand by the fact that Paul did want Stilgar to learn history so he could be a more well-rounded servant. He was clearly unimpressed with how Stilgar handled the conversation with Edric and hoped learning about ancient military tactics could improve his skill as a political operator. No one in Dune does anything for one singular reason. Plans within plans and all that. I’m sorry I didn’t include this in the video. I’m new at this and didn’t really expect to see this many eyes on the video. In the future I will make a point to be more on the money with each level of my analysis. Thanks for watching.
Having your own opinion is perfectly valid - even if others disagree. I liked your video’s spin on it - made me look at it from a different angle. Exactly the kind of think Frank said he wanted readers to do (use their own brains). Thanks for the video - appreciated it.
Denis will not adapt Dune Messiah except loosely based on. He will probably call it Dune Part Three. Chani told Paul he is not of the desert. Chani told everyone Paul is a fraud fooling you simple religious people. She is not going to be having Paul's twins, so no set up for Children of Dune. It is a race gender thing. Chani will bring down Paul, the White Savior. Chani, Irulan and surprise Alia vs Paul and Jessica. No Mentants, Guild, Tleilaxu and no Duncan Idaho. Denis wraps up his trilogy in typical Hollywood style. Great effects!
Agree with your comment here, but disagree with your "and effective" in the video - Herbert was writing before the re-examination of Nazi/German internal politics and military proficiency that's happened over the last couple of decades :- Hitler and his Nazi machine massively _ineffective_ from an organisational and military perspective, only the war-aversion following WWII allowed them military success 1938-1941, and Hitler's personal influence fell off rapidly with distance from his 'charisma' - he was entirely unable to control the schemings of Nazi office holders which squandered their advantages and war gains, and had little insight into the politics or intent of either his enemies or allies.
@@stopculture At the end of the day, anime is just stories told through animation rather than live action so it should be ok. EDIT: I'll add that the Attack on Titan is one of my favorite animes and it is a experience I recommend to many.
@@stopculture maybe Cowboy Bebob, BlackLagoon, Arcane or some stand alone Vampire Hunter D or Red Line, but if you're into Ghibli you've already started (Ghost in the Shell?). AOT is on Netflix if you live in Asia
Messiah needs to be adapted. People need to see the consequences of Paul's crusade, the horror he saw. He says this: “Constitutions become the ultimate tyranny," Paul said.
Yeah, of course. I want it to be adapted! I love the book. I’m just saying, Villeneuve is facing an uphill climb in creating a movie that fans of the first two will be happy to see. Messiah and Dune are entirely different beasts.
@@stopculture I actually wonder if he's going to sort of "compress" children and god emperor into it. I could see it having Paul seeing the golden path and a giant worm thing. The end of it would be this super trippy sequence were we see what his son will become and it ends with Leto II explaining what he is to the audience a tyrant to end all tyrants. I agree with your point that Villneuve may include bits of the war in the film we didn't see. This could be incorporated by showing the history of the Fremen veteran who accuses Paul of betraying the fremen. This is also a key scene I think. Personally I would love it to open with the interview with the historian whos' about to be executed, that would really set the tone.
Yeah I was thinking he might wanna do that too. It’s the way the Sci-Fi adaptation chose to go about things. And I totally agree about the Fremen veteran part. That scene where he talks to Scytale about how he’s lost faith in Paul is such an important moment in Messiah. He’ll have to squeeze that bit for all it’s worth.
He alluded in a recent interview that this is the why Chani is going to play a bigger role than in the books. It’s to highlight the differences between the two characters. I think he’s going to go all in since he knows Paul is a bad guy
To be honest, paul referencing hitler isnt that wild considering its 20,000 years in the future. I mean does anyone really get up in arms over genghis khan nowadays? And thats only several hundred years ago. In the future hitler will probably be just another historical figure
It would be interesting to know what kind of information about the 20th century is available 20,000 years from now. What we know about history only goes back about 5,000 years and a lot of what happened has been lost.
But then there's the question about Paul's access to genetic memory. Can he see -- and appreciate -- the painful details and consequences of World War II through the memories of the ancestors he carries within him? Is he actually embracing Hitler's racist rationale, or just Hitler's strategy for domination? Is Paul deliberately overlooking and failing to mention Hitler's bigotry because he knows those aspects won't be available to Stilgar, having been lost to time?
I personally don’t like references to such our recent history as I think it breaks the immersion and feels out of universe. I don’t think that it makes sense for Paul to talk about events that happened 10-20 thousand years ago as there should be plenty of examples much more relevant and memorable to him that happened relatively recently. Although it would be a good reference point for the audience, I would rather Denis show Paul’s character change than having him say it. I feel like it breaks the story telling and should be more of a foot note as it feels like an abrupt insertion of a message rather than a natural one
@@roguewasbanned4746 Great point. I also felt a little caught off guard when I read that scene in the book. I hope Denis Villeneuve can get the feel of Dune Messiah onto the screen without having to adapt it word by word and instead deviate in ways that enhance the story's message.
@@roguewasbanned4746 One thing I like about Star Trek is that it uses references to things that happen in our future for their history. It feels more real that they have history that we don't know about because they're living in the future.
Hm, it'll be an interesting symmetry - the first film ends with Paul and Chani going into the desert, the second - only Chani, so the third having Paul walking alone will be great.
I can see a path where Chani kills Paul at the height of his power, and then Chani would become the Imperial regent because their young children will be the heirs to the empire. Book purists will hate it, but I think that would be a wild character arc for Chani. Consider that the first film starts with Chani asking who the Fremen's next oppressors would be. It'd be a hell of a way to finish the trilogy with Chani effectively becoming the emperor.
For sure, it's got incredibly epic potential. The problem is that it is only the beginning of Messiah, so my guess would be that scenes from the Jihad will be scattered throughout the whole movie. You can't put the greatest action in the beginning and let the rest be just politics.
Ya Denis has done a good job showing scenes that brief on in the books. That’s one of the main reasons that makes the films so interesting to the book readers
I REALLY hope he goes this way, and with that tying Chani back into the history, I simply cannot see Messiah being adapted with the way thay Part ll ended
I remember that scene when Paul is telling Stilgar about Genghis Kahn and Hitler saying that they killed millions of people. Stilgar thinks that they did this as individuals and can’t comprehend that they did it as leaders. He remarks, “They must have had some very devastating weapons.” There is nothing more devastating than an idea.
Eugeny was applied in both cases. Gratuituous hate for the different. Conquering, show of force, rule of might. Tyranny is all about that. It's called fascism for a reason.
I always love that conversation because it's Kay the same way how people keep looking at old and ancient structures and believe that they had help from aliens because they can't believe that someone could build structures like that with simple tools. When not only have we demonstrated that we can do that and we have done it historically throughout multiple different cultures, but also that the buildings and structures we make now are way more incredibly advanced than those ancient relics, which should be proof of the lineage of how much we've learned from building ancient shit in the past. Go tapping the pyramid builders, for example. Could only dream of building something as tall as our modern skyscrapers. They would probably literally describe it as touching the gods.
Hate to be that guy, but it’s the other way around. Stilgar thought they killed millions by themselves, which is what impressed him and prompted the line about the incredible weapons they had. When Paul corrects him, stilgar can’t comprehend it because he thinks numbers in the tens of millions are pathetic and not worth mentioning in the face of the tens of BILLIONS the Atriedes imperium slaughtered during the Jihad. He doesn’t understand why Paul even bothered mentioning this tidbit and is maybe even a bit impatient.
@@jordanwhite352 Are you sure that the current buildings are better than the ancient ones? I mean, it's the latter that have managed to survive for centuries.
Total misinterpretation to say that Paul was referencing Hitler “lovingly” or “getting off” on it. He was trying to make Stilgar understand that he wasn’t a good person by showing him evil figures of the past.
Exactly this. It makes an empathetic reader like Paul more, because he's self critical, and tragic, and tried to educate and raise up his followers to be critical even of himself.
If Paul was referencing Hitler cynically that would mean he isnt actually glorifying the bad man which means he doesnt want to be like the bad man. Which makes Paul less evil. He redeems himself slightly by renouncing evil in reference. A double edged sword. Irony within irony
So is Paul a better person if he glorifies the Austrian painter in earnest from the bottom of his Other Memory? A double edged sword. Irony within Irony
yeah i dont know how he made this whole video after reading that line since paul is literally despondent the entire book because he hates that the jihad has gotten out of his control. He isn't saying it admiringly, he's just being realistic about who he is.
@@OverLorD768 Oh you pitiful book acolyte. We've got two great movies to enjoy and you've got nothing! Hahaha Your life would be so much better if you just were able to accept an adaptation for your beloved novel.
@@janmajer4662 well, judging by how much he botched almost every single character in pt.2, removed other important characters, it would be near impossible to not make better movie.
Am I the only one who has actually read these books... Paul is forced by circumstances to take up the mantle of Messiah, the Fremen "Jihad" is something he regrets but is powerless to prevent... The Benegeserett crafted the Fremen religion knowing that war on Arakkis was inevitable, and it might be used to their advantage. Jessica takes up the role of "Reverend Mother" to facilitate their accommodation into Fremen society and Paul goes along because he realizes that events have been set in motion that cannot be stopped whether he is a part of it or not, he goes along partially to give himself and his mother a chance at survival, partially to avenge his father, and partly to seek revenge on the Baron. It is during his time with the Fremen that Paul discovers what he calls "Krazelek" his "twilight struggle" what he finds is that the events that have been set in motion lead to human extinction... Paul discovers a way out, a way to change the course of events but wracked by the guilt of what has been done in his name and realizing that he would be forced to become the greatest despot in human history to force humanity down his "golden path" he can't do it. Paul chooses to destroy himself and bequeaths his "golden path" to his son Leto II leaving humanities fate in his hands. That is Dune Messiah, it's the end of Paul's story and the beginning of Leto's. When Paul is talking about Stalin and Hitler and the other "Great Despots" he isn't venerating them... He is trying to get Stilgar to see what they have become... Paul isn't "The Chosen One" he's a pawn in the Benegeserett plan THE PLAN THAT GENETICALLY ENGINEERED HIS VERY BIRTH and orchestrated his rise to power to further their own ends. Jessica throws a wrench in those plans by giving birth to him one Generation early and because of it, Paul is not the placid puppet they intended he breaks free of their control just enough to set his own plan in motion, Leto II, who he entrusts to do what he could not, to become the "Tyrant" to change Arakkis, the worms and the spice cycle to "swerve the wheel" and set humanity on a course that does not lead to extinction, Paul's "Golden Path."
Thank you, someone who understands Paul's struggles and motivations. He does not sympathize or venerates other dictators, he despises them- but he despises himself even more, because he has become something worse than any of them could ever hope to be. He didn't want any of this, he was forced into a situation and he tried to the best that he could with it. Paul Atreides is far from being a hero, let alone a messiah, but he is not necessarily a villain either.
this. I felt like the video was in love with Paul being this unredeemable villain but I think the story gets more complicated with these additional reasonings. edit: Also, wasnt there a conversation between Leto and Paul, where Paul didnt look far enough in the future and saw the the Golden Path worked and humanity would adapt and survive, but Paul just saw the suffering (?) and stayed away from it? Or am I mixing up something?
@@SETHthegodofchaos you are correct - Paul can't stomach the Golden Path after getting a taste of the scale of suffering "necessary" to accomplish it, especially after already seeing the outcome of the Jihad that he kickstarted.
I love Sicario, then he got the chance to do 2049, and I loved that movie too!he made me love the Atreides family after the 1st part! I am pretty sure he will make it work for us fans who hasnt read the books!
@@cognician_ 100% . Many things will be completely difficult and left out. But like dune part 2 what's important is he keeps the themes and the general conclusion/ heart of the story.
As someone who loved Messiah, what I'm actually worried, but also interested, about is how they're gonna adapt Chani. In the book, Paul has next to everything he could have. So, when his mental state, and in-turn the relationships around him, start to decay and ultimately lead to his demise, it's pretty emotional and kathartic. But, the way Villeneuve ended Part Two makes me think that he's gonna go a very different route for Paul and Chani, where the movie is about them reconciling and ultimately the birth of their children rather than a slow decay of their relationship. If he goes for this route I don't know if the fall-from-grace for Paul would hit as well as it does in the book.
Ugh you’re so right why tf didn’t I talk about this in the video lmao. That’s the biggest change from the end of the first book to the end of Part Two and Dune 3 is going to have to grapple with that choice to have her walk out in a big way. I’m so curious as to how he’ll change it. Chani is so much more of a passive pragmatist in the book. She barely cares that he marries Irulan, but Denis chose to make her much more of an active participant in the story. This change worked out great for an adaptation of Dune, but it could definitely gum up the works for an adaptation of Messiah. Guess we shall see 🤷♂️
@stopculture yeah, I trust in villenueve to do something special but I really hope he manages to nail home that ending. Also Messiah JUST got confirmed, according to Deadline, about an hour ago lolll
my best guess is that Chani would come to an understanding OR becoming a single mother in a sietch to Leto II and Ghanima, or just the first Leto II and still spite Paul. I really wish I can see the 3rd movie soon, knowing how Villeneuve has the talent for corrupted protagonist
I think messiah being so short it will see the most amount of changes and additions to its plot, mainly because there is room for it. I just hope the ending of messiah stays intact as it is one of the best parts of the novel.
i think it will since Villeneuve's Dune is really centered around Paul. As much as (spoiler) Paul doesn't really die at the end of this book, he kinda does in a way, it's a neat conclusion to its arc, even in the books, Paul Atreideis, the Emperor of the Known Universe, dies that day. It concludes pretty neatly the movies.
@@MrChokladPaul Atreides died the day he killed Jamis and was reborn as Paul-Muad’Dib. Paul-Muad’Dib died the day Chani did, and was reborn The Preacher. The Preacher died the day Alia ordered him dead, and lived forever on in Leto II. And when Leto died that was truly the end for all incarnations of Paul.
I was thinking the same thing. Some of my favorite parts of the first book were cut out of Parts 1 + 2, but I also think Villeneuve crafted a coherent work that stands on its own (A friend who never read the books enjoyed the recent films and said it all made sense to him). Messiah being a shorter work opens up room for actually seeing the Spacing Guild, Navigators, more visions, etc. I doubt he'll bring in the worm-spice cycle, but who knows?
Denis is trying to adapt the "spirit" of Dune, especially in part 2 with the way he changed Chani's story and Paul's sister. I think if he sticks to a rather simple storyline and don't get too bogged down by all the political intrigue in Messiah it'll be a fine adaptation (and of course audiences will be looking forward to big space battles )
@@smdanny1 it probably would cost him more screen time than expected because he did not explain in the first 2 movies why the Guild would conspire with Gaius against the Atreides
Problem is, you can't end with Paul as villain unless you also portray what it was that Paul turned away from. That means making Children of Dune (at least) in to another film.
The trick is people prefer a refemption arch. Negative archs are much harder to pull off, especially with how things go with Dune. Herbert didn't get the desired response for the first book and course corrected in his eyes. At this point, it's making Paul a sympathetic villain, which shows difficult odds but not too much where choice is removed. I haven't read the book, but given as much as I've heard, it's not going to be easy. People want closure or a satisfying ending. Honestly, I think (this is my bias and not Herbert's words) I think it would be best to end with him as the blasphemer of Arrakis. End the cautionery tale at its message. Don't follow blind guides... Though I could see it ending with him walking out into the desert too. Sorry for the ramble.
Paul sees Chani's death coming but lets this happen because it will enfold the Golden Path (later pursued by Leto II), this is also why he lets the Jihad occur. He does not want to be Hitler or Genghis, but compares himself to them since his prescience is forcing him to take a path with resembles the ways of some of the worst tyrants known to men. If he doesn't THINGS WILL BE WORSE. In the end he walks into the desert willingly, and while one can presume it has something to do with the loss of eyesight (which the Fremen look down on), it is more likely that he does not want to continue with the life he is currently living. He never wanted to be the Kwisatz Haderach and he also never wanted to be an evil emperor killing billions, it is simply out of necessity, for the alternative is death, slavery, torture and worse. An alternative so bad he would rather let Chani die in childbirth than save her, and he loved her more then anything in the world. Paul is a 'good' character, cursed by his prescience which forces him to do the unspeakable to prevent something far worse than a Jihad. He sacrifices everything in order for his son to finish what he started.
if all three films weren't noticeably different genres, i feel like it easier to accept all the changes. Part 1 was a drama. Part 2 was an action flick... part 3 is more philosophical
Anyone with doubts should read the original script for Sicario. Dennis will adjust dialogue and remove/adapt entire scenes (like the famous Sicario ending) in service of the film.
I didn't finish Sicario. It literally triggered memories of bad cops. I was literally unable to deal with it. If he wants to make you hate a protagonist I think he can succeed just fine.
Part 1: intro of the Harkonnen takeover and retreat from Arrakis narrated by Chani Part 2: intro of the atreides massacre and the intrigue of Arrakis narrated by Irulan Part 3: intro of the Jihad and its effects on the galaxy alongside Paul’s conflicting feelings narrated by Alia???
More Alia would be great. Wonder if a thirty-years-old actress will be 'in the film' though, alongside Paul. Will they go for Prometheus aging-make-up on Golden(Path)Boy?
Dune Messiah may not be what typical Hollywood film viewers want, but it is what they need. I would love for Hollywood to stop treating adult film goers like short attention spanned idiots and give us a film that engages our brains with thoughtful scenes as opposed to non stop action. Then again, Denis didn't put the dinner scene in Dune, which would have been a great introduction to the political dynamics to come. I trust Denis to make a great Messiah film, but I don't yet know if we can trust him to make a faithful adaptation to close Paul's relevance in the story. They need to show him as a complete tyrant and not sugar coat his downfall.
I agree. I think 2023 showed a lot of promising signs that studios are finally beginning to treat general audiences like adults again, and Dune 2 continued this into 2024. I’m hoping that between Barbenheimer and Dune 2, studios take the hint that we’re tired of all the slop and want a steady stream of substantive media for a change.
I agree with you, and I think Denis probably struggled with how to adequately portray the negative aspects of Pauls "ascension" (even Frank Herbert in his own opinion failed to do so in his first book). Denis' choice to let it be shown through Chani was simple and clever in my opinion.
Dune and Dune Part 2 did exactly that, dude. So did Oppenheimer and Barbie, which were huge hits. That's not the issue. It's just that Dune Messiah is not a cinematic book. That's just how it is. I don't expect people to sit through two hours of barely anything happening, and _I don't want to either._ That doesn't make Hollywood guilty of treating us like "attention-spanned idiots". I'm certainly not an "attention-spanned idiot" either and I think Dune Messiah is not worth adapting. I think the story concluded great with Dune 2. We don't need any more.
Messiah concludes the "Muad'Dib saga" as the tragedy it is. Children is the tragedy of Alia and God Emperor is the tragedy of Leto II. Those Atreides are Greek, after all... Villeneuve has tackled slow, deeply existential movies with great succes before. Hell be just fine.
Chalamet's casting was a brilliant stroke, even though he could've been EVEN YOUNGER, to play a book-accurate Paul Atreides. Paul Atreides was an introverted and affectionate wisp of a youth given training to become the overpowered despot he eventually became. Chalamet at the end of Villeneuve's Dune 2 is still on course. We must wait a few years for Chalamet to age into his role in Dune Messiah, which takes place a number of years later after the Jihad and hope he has the actor's mettle and talent to play the conflicted genocidal emperor and bitter outcast Paul Atreides became. I suppose, because even Frank Herbert did not believe he got his point across with paul Atreides, he wrote God Emperor of Dune, making of Paul's son Leto II an even more grotesque and tyrannical genocidal maniac who was near immortal and ruled thousands of years in a feat of literary overkill...
When Paul made his H*tler comment he was bringing it up to compare his own kill count to those of the past and wonders how the future will look back on him as we look back on our own history of tyrants. I don't think this comment will be in the new movie. If it is i'll be surprised.
Yes but he did want Stilgar to learn about both tyrants of Earth to instill a better sense of political strategy into him. I also think he mentioned his own kill count/place in history to help temper Stilgar to some degree, though. My takeaway was that Paul does want Stilgar to expand his education bc he was unhappy with how he performed in the convo with Edric, but he also hopes a side effect of this knowledge will be a deeper understanding of the true cost of the war they’re waging. Plans within plans, ya know?
It also has deeper meaning to it. Stilgar assumes Hitler killed that many people with superweapons, but he really killed them with his ideas - just like Paul killed the victims of his Jihad with the ideas surrounding him.
I think Paul could be depicted more as a villain in Dune Messiah, as someone who has lost their way and lost control. Though perhaps is shown to have finally realised his mistakes and shows remorse as his own life collapses before apparently walking off into the desert and dying alone.
My favourite part in all of Dune is when Paul goes to the home depot in Arrakis and noticed two men vey similar to him and Stilgar buying supplies to manufacture Spice, and he confronts them in the parking lot, look them in the eyes and tells them "Stay out of my territory." And that it's the moment we realise he's been the villain all along. Extremely powerful stuff.
@@lanternsupremacy420 Another scene that gave me goosebumps was the one where Baron Vladimir Harkonnen looks at Duke Leto Atreides straight in the eyes and yells at him “I will kill your wife, I will kill your son, I will kill your infant daughter.”... ICONIC!!
I feel like Denis has to incorporate some of Children and will probably cut some of the boring parts of Messiah to make room so it has more exciting plot points that translate well to the big screen. I personally feel the end of Children is a more fitting end to Paul’s story than the end of Messiah, but it would be a lot for him to mush two books into one movie.
@havokmusicinc "tons of incest" If you're referring to the ending, you entirely missed the fact that Ghanima took Farad'n as a concubine the same way Leto I did with Jessica. Her marriage with her brother was purely political.
I’ve never read the Dune books, and I’m planning reading them only after Part Three comes out, but everything I’ve seen from him gives me full confidence that he can do it justice. Most of the people online who have read the book have said he adapted it well, I myself thought it was so good I went to see Part Two twice (alongside friends, who also said it was amazing). I’ve also seen *and* read Arrival, and I would say he perfectly adapted it. If anyone can adapt Messiah, it’s gotta be Denis.
read the books, yeah, Denis fucking rocks lol I mean, part two has some major differences compared to the book in terms of how the story is structured plus some details are different, but all the main events and scenes are there, and they're gorgeous. Part One is almost a 1:1 depiction of the book, it's slower, packed with a lot of information about the world we're putting ourselves in, and it's also just the first part of the book, part two required much more writing work since in the book a lot happens between the events showed in the movie, and these events are properly spaced out. A movie made like that would've been difficult, maybe you would've needed even 3 movies for just the first book, but then you'd risk ending up making 2 movies that feel too slow and unconclusive, and one movie that has all the conclusions in it and nothing else. All things considered, the book is amazing, the movies are amazing and even tho dune messiah will require probably the most ammount of rewrite to adapt it to a movie, after part two I am very confident in this dude.
Interesting about Arrival in that some of the key parts in the film that made it work came not from the initial core writing, but from other people within the production helping work it out, which parallels the actual plot of the film which is kinda fun.
Just finished reading dune messiah and didn’t expect for this video to spoil anything. I’m sad that i now know paul survived his dessert walk. That would have been cool to learn for the first time in children of dune but oh well
Maybe it’s just a “me” thing but I def sensed some weird innuendos in that part of the book. Clearly the people who did the Sci-Fi adaptation did too lol if you watch it, it’s very very suggestive
@@stopculture there’s a moment of realization that smacks Paul in the face. In fact stilgar brings it to his awarness and it was embarrassing for Alia who with all of her vast knowledge wasn’t aware of it either. Paul clearly didn’t think of her in that way when he too was caught off guard by it, but then his training, awareness, and no doubt mentat capabilities probably kicked in.
She is interested in having his children. He thinks about it for a moment critically and decides against it. This shows really well how far removed from any human morality he has become. Incest is a quid pro quo situation to him and he failed to find enough positives to go along with the ideas of the Sisterhood, who wanted that incest child.
Villenueve said he wants to only explore Paul’s story arc. which makes me think he will include aspects of the 3rd book (children of dune). he already changed significant aspects of the first book. so it’s not beyond reason to think he will exclude Leto II and Ghanima completely, but still use story beats from CoD that fallow Paul’s death.
That’s the beauty of Paul Atreides. He becomes an evil tyrant. No fairy tale BS. They have enough. The relationship between Irulan and Chani the holy wars and the stuff with the ghola.
@@snoot6629 Exactly. We see flashbacks or conversations concerning the event, hear the word, and it makes more sense than confusing the audience. The emotion of regret afterwards will weigh heavier than fear of Holy War.
I have yet to watch part two because of reasons, but seeing half my dumbass friends unironically chanting lisan al gaib at the first occasion before mouthbreathing heavily fills me with dread. Okay I'm joking, mostly, but it's still a bit weird.
the las point is so important to me. I agree Messiah seems really, really hard to adapt well.. Maybe "impossible". But I thought it was impossible we would get this far so.... I can't doubt that he can do it again.
I think that audiences are underestimated. For example, while Game of Thrones did have some action, it was known for it's plotting and non-action more than anything. I think that a Dune Messiah that is loyal to the original material could still do very well. That said, I don't think that's what we'll get. Dune part 2 starts with an action scene that shouldn't have been there, for example. I think part 3 is going to start with the jihad and it's going to show us a lot more of that. They already left it in a weird place with Chani walking off into the desert. I think it's going to pick up right from there before any time jump (if we get one at all). We'll see some combat, we'll see Paul get into Chani's good graces again, and then we'll go into the actual content from Messiah.
Paul’s explaining of Genghis Khan and Adolf wasn’t to give praise to these individuals. The heavy burden of the jihad weighs incredibly heavy on Paul’s conscious. Additionally Paul didn’t “let” the Fremen kill 60 billion. Early on in Dune it was established that Paul, Jessica, and all the members of Stilgar’s band would have to die in order to prevent that future. Unfortunately, it was too late for Paul to prevent the jihad but his fate was ultimately tragic as he lived countless futures trying to prevent the jihad and far worse from happening.
Yeah I was trying to keep things brief but I should’ve mentioned that. It’s a huge book change and it’ll definitely require a lot of deviation from the text in Dune 3
I started reading Dune after the first movie, and fell in love with the book collection. As I was reading through Messiah, before the second movie came out, I was extremely skeptical about how they would possibly portray Paul for the bigger audience. Since then we see the movie part ways in some of the book's "plans within plans". Your video could synthesize everything so greatly man, amazing work!!!!!!!
This whole thing doing the rounds about herbert failing with his message in the first book so he wrote the second to correct the first is a bit dubious and I can't seem to find where herbert said this. Link?
Oh I’m not sure he ever said it outright. That part was kind of a joke. It’s kind of just an assumption I made. I mean, it’s hard to read the Hitler line and the bit about preventing the constitution for his subjects and not think he put those in there mostly to tell the people who didn’t get the idea in round one: “STOP WORSHIPPING THIS GUY! HE’S BAD NEWS.” Lol
@@stephengrant4841 And he didn't show Paul as a nice charakter in his own book "Paul of Dune" (That's my opinion at least) which takes place in the time between Dune and Dune Messiah. .
Real quick I just wanna clarify that Paul isn't actually bragging when he's talking about Hitler in that scene. He's partially expressing his guilt. "My Liege makes a joke," Korba said, voice trembling. "The Jihad has brought ten thousand worlds into the shining light of - " "Into the darkness," Paul said. "We'll be a hundred generations recovering from Muad'dib's Jihad. I find it hard to imagine that anyone will ever surpass this." A barking laugh erupted from his throat. "What amuses Muad'dib?" Stilgar asked. "I am not amused. I merely had a sudden vision of the Emperor Hitler saying something similar. No doubt he did."
Thanks for clarifying. Tbh I should’ve re-read the chapter before making the video. Honestly I’m very new at this at I didn’t expect this video to have so many eyes on it. I’m trying to be better about making sure I’m on the money with all my analysis in the future.
read a pretty baseless rumor that the movie will start off 6 years later instead of 12, and maybe even be an entire movie, set before book messiah but idk seems far fetched
There is an actual book set turing that time (Paul of Dune) but wirtten by Frank Herbert's son not himself. Alia is 4 years old in it. So I wonder now wether they will use at least part of that book for the movies. (I read the book ones but didn't like it.)
Given Anya Taylor-Joy will be playing Alia in Messiah [which is teased with her cameo in Part 2], if anything it will be a bigger time jump, not a shorter one.
I'm 2/3 through the first book, having gone there after loving both movies on their own merits. Thanks for the "spoilery" preview of Messiah. If anything, it's made me more excited about the third installment. Vileneuve has had several years to think about this. It will be fascinating to see what he does. Subbed!
I am a bit afraid that Paul's inner struggle cannot be represented as well in a movie as it is in the book, since you know you don't have his thought process constantly laid out for you in a movie
@@leonardcsapo416 Or he saw how clumsy the voice overs were in the 1984 film and wanted to avoid that [and most adaptions have to deal with the thoughts of the characters on the page not being something you can show in a film unless you use a voice over which is often regarded as a storytelling cop out].
It is almost exactly that. Watch the SciFi "Children of Dune", which has as its first part the whole of Dune Messiah, and there is a very distinct montage that is exactly the settling of accounts.
The problem with this condemnation of Paul is the whole prophetic powers thing. Paul was constantly seeing the consequences of alternative choices and that blurs all the moral lines (especially since the rejected options aren't explicitly spelled out)
Paul isn't an antihero any more than he's a hero: he's a tragic figure in a classical Greek mode who can see a very dark future but can do NOTHING about it (or, more accurately, can't bring himself to "do what needs to be done"). It remains to be seen whether there's an audience for that sort of VERY ancient story...
If Villeneuve checks out after Messiah (as he's hinted), I'm curious if there's a filmmaker you think would be well suited to take the reins? I have *no* idea, personally 😭😅
@@tysonngubeni8545Film director here. I'm cautiously curious about who's gonna direct Children of Dune, because I'll try to get in to adapt God Emperor of Dune, which I love very much and I already have ideas for how to adapt some aspects of the book to screen 😅.
I think it's safe to say Villeneuve's adaptation of Messiah is already set to deviate drastically from the book. Which is most likely a good thing. My bet is there's going to be a large focus on his reconciliation with Chani. Unless she's already pregnant, in which case she will die in childbirth in the desert and Paul will come to retrieve the twins, which would kind of force some elements of Children of Dune to play out in part 3. I don't think we'll see the entirety of the jihad play out, but I'm sure we'll see some of it. And there's going to have to be some sort of time jump at some point, likely by act 2 of the film, to get adult Alia into the picture. It's kind of fun to speculate. This is an interesting puzzle to solve after seeing all of the changes made during part 2. But I have high hopes and a lot of faith in Denis as a filmmaker and storyteller! It's gonna be a long wait for part 3.
Yeah he will definetely show a bit of the jihad, especially considering the fact the we don't actually get to see any of that in the book. It's talked about, but happens off screen. My idea is that it will open with some visions of Paul that depicts exactly what is happening around the galaxy by the hands of the fremen under his command, it will last quite a while compared to other visions and have some weight to it, to really drive home how much cruelty has happened. I don't think any complex storyline is gonna be made regarding the jihad, but something will have to be adapted because at the end of the day dune Messiah is more than half the book merely about power plays and politics of the new empire and the new religion, which is cool in the book but hard to adapt to a movie. Maybe the twins will be an element of the story that is going to be somewhat sacrified, considering he isn't really interested in continuing the movies beyond the third, but it's also too important to skip it entirely of change it dramatically. Also the role Chani has in the movies is quite different from the book, she will certainly be more central in Denis's version. I'm just wondering how the hell is he going to make the Gild Navigators on screen, i dont think he's gonna skip on that, but in the books they're weird af lol
@@1183newman The Harkonnens cheated first by getting the Sardaukar to help them. Plus they kidnapped and tortured Yueh's wife to break his conditioning.
I wouldn't say Paul is referencing these other tyrants lovingly. Rather he was being sardonic out of hatred for what he was doing and what he had become.
The issue you present after 8 minutes or so, is exactly what worries me. Yea, the book is amazing and it works for its media format. But as a final chapter to a Blockbuster trilogy, it really doesn't bring too much to work with. So just like you, I'll be trying to rest peacefully repeating in my mind "Trust in Denis".
fair point, but Part One is also a movie that you wouldn't really describe as a good first movie of a blockbuster trilogy. I don't really think people in the future will believe these movies came out one at a time and not as a "package" because of how they play out. In hindsight, Dune 1 is a terrible gamble, there's no ending, it's slow, it's a hard sci-fi world the mainstream is not familiar with, who the hell would produce that? Luckily for us, Denis has that big Director energy that allowed him to get it done and prove it works, but none of this is conventional I'd say. Even Star Wars, it's amazing, yes, but much less dense, much more enjoyable, has much more defined archetypes, easy story to follow along. It's still a complex sci-fi world never seen before on the big screen, but every other element is recognisable, you have a hero, it's a true hero, you have a villain, it's a true villain, they're connected and yadda yadda. Dune is complicated, things are not as they seem and there are no really strong archetypes, which is what makes it so good and interesting, but, again, complicated for the masses. But nevertheless, they're working, and I think i goes to show how much a good director and a good story can connect with people, even when the story is not conventional.
It's been a while since I read Messiah but I'm pretty sure it is clear that Paul hates the jihad and what it ultimately does to the universe and the Freman, is terrified of the future he sees and ultimately is trying to lessen the carnage that is inevitable. He ultimately is a failed character because he refuses to make the sacrifice needed to save the universe that his son eventually makes.
I really think at least the first half hour or so of Messiah will focus on Paul’s jihad and the ramifications of that on the other characters and this is where most of the action will come from, aside from the stone burner and scytale stuff. Frank Herbert tended to leave out a lot of action sequences to focus on the political aspects, but DV will flesh them out. I think DV will also find a way to bring Lady Jessica into a more prominent role, rather than leave her on Caladan for the whole thing. I also think he might use Paul’s prescience or some kind of flash forward sequence to show us a bit of what’s to come and the future with the Golden Path (Leto II sandworm?) especially if he’s not going to adapt past Messiah. And a lot of the film will definitely focus on the tension between Irulan and Chani. But either way DV has done a great job so far so i have high hopes for this!
In DV we trust. I think he will take elements of Messiah, but mostly just work with a screenwriter to create a worthy sequel to part 2 that brings Paul and Chani's main story to a satisfying (if not happy) conclusion. I don't even think it'll be called Messiah. I think it'll be Dune: Part 3.
Ive been thinking the same thing since I finished reading messiah. While there could be some cool parts to be adapted like the ghola, face dancers, tlielaxu, and stoneburners you can’t ignore the genocide that Paul’s going to have to bring on. Will be very interesting to see how denis villenueve handles this hurdle.
Yeah definitely. It’s what the sci-di adaptation did. I don’t think he’ll use as much of COD as that adaptation did, mostly because he won’t have the time for it. But he could easily use elements of COD for an epilogue of sorts.
I’m excited to read (and eventually, see!) Messiah; based on my interpretation of the wiki pages, my conception of Paul’s story is that he is less villain and more tragic figure trapped by his prescience, enduring a years long “gom jabbar” to see is he is human. His prescience grows more accurate until it is so precise he can see all potentialities - he is the kwisatz haterach - but the KH being the fullest, perfectest human (in the bene gesseret philosophy) is actually somehow subhuman because he lacks true free will. This is finally amplified by his physical blindness, because he becomes completely dependent on the visions for everyday activities - he can still “see,” but at what cost. So him losing his prescience and wandering into the desert is him passing the gom jabbar, surrendering his power in order to reclaim his will and humanity. Later, his son becomes an eternal Worm-God tyrant for 3,000 years to take up the mantle of “inhuman” willingly, in order that the human species as a whole may reclaim their freedom from prescience. Paul gave up his power to become human, Leto II surrendered his humanity to give power to humans. But again, that’s just my take after reading Wikipedia pages. Probably once I actually read Messiah, Children, etc. themselves my perspective will change.
Any thoughts on him merging this book and Children into one long movie? Could it work? Maybe include a mid movie time jump to allow Alia to grow up. I haven't read these books yet.
Tbh I don’t think it would be something he’d do. I could see him pulling some plot lines from COD and turning them into an epilogue of sorts, but he’s been pretty clear from the jump that for him, Messiah is as far as he goes in terms of adaptation. He’s spoken in interviews about how Frank got a little too “out there” in the later books for any large-scale Hollywood adaptation, which is definitely true lol.
To be clear, paul was not hypocritical in his opinion of being damned to the desert when blind. He many times stated and proved that despite eyes he could look at you and know what you were wearing, know your facial features, and small gestures. Despite eyes he could see. Only when his visions began to fade was he truly blind and walked into the desert, truly free.
Hi, just wanted to say I've really enjoyed this video but I would've appreciated a warning that you were also going to spoil a plot point for Children of Dune. I've only read the first two books so I had no idea about that
Messiah is my favorite Dune book (with the clarification that I haven’t read any of those not written by Frank Herbert… I didn’t even like his later ones enough to bother reading someone else’s) When I read the original Dune trilogy the first time I was led to believe that I probably wouldn’t like the second one very much, and that, possibly only the first one was great… And I immediately disagreed! I loved the first dune and needed to read more, and was so pleasantly surprised that I loved the second one even more! It was just such a refreshing and fascinating take on a protagonist, I had no idea how much I wanted that.
Agree, just re-read it after many years, and had forgotten how different it is from the original, how focused on palace intrigue and people in rooms talking. Like the chatty parts of Game of Thrones, without much of the action. I think you're on to something in this video. Very likely Villeneuve will find the missing ingredients he needs among scenes from the (in the book, off-stage) war raging across the Universe. But, there's no avoiding how dark it gets. This overall story is a tragedy, and Messiah is where all of the bills come due.
i can see big dennis making another path for messiah anyway, we have chani leaving into the desert isntead of just being somewhat passive, Alia not even born by the end, and more. so i imagine he has his own vague outlines/plans for a messiah which has a fairly different plot. railing off the dome i can see it starting off towards the end of the main jihad so we can get a few battles and displaying pauls dictatorial nature, then act 2 + 3 having all the scheming and building on the issues of his reign, maybe with chani acting as a preacher/rebel against him. the messiah schemers could include whoever controlled xyz conquered planet of act 1 to create a stronger link etc. very exciterd to see how he does edric.
I am really puzzled at how the director is going to include and use Chani in Messiah given the changes he made to her character in part 2 and given her importance in Messiah.
he doesn't refuse to walk into the desert when he's blind because he's refusing ancient fremen customs? he explains that its because he may not have eyes but that doesn't mean he is blind, obviously because he can still see using his prescient vision rather than the vision that eyes allow. he's just using a different kind of vision seems weird to say that he was refusing fremen customs when he lost his eyes and then after chani dies he decides suddenly to go by those customs again? its because when chani dies he loses his prescient visions therefore he is now truly blind and the fremen law now applies
By the way, Paul is wrong to compare Gengis Khan's killcount to Hitler's, as he only counts the amount of people hitler likely killed industrially, not the amount of people killed in WW2 by germany.
mfer, there should have been a spoiler warning for the sequals to dune messiah as well. I just finished reading it and there was no mention of paul surviving anything. thanks bruv
If Villenueve wanted to do something crazy, he could do an incredibly intense sequence of muad’dibs jihad. I’m new to the franchise but my biggest takeaway from the books is that Paul’s Jihad had *serious* consequences across the universe. Something frightening and intense like a Jihad scene could really get the point across in a film adaptation.
F. Herbert wrote the fascinating & speculative “Dune” with ingenious settings like some tech limitations. However, he also knew such limitations block civilizational development, ending the story as a tragedy. Moreover, we all are now getting the ability like Paul’s genetic memory or prescience with the internet or AI. Paul’s tears for the victims & Chani’s protest against propaganda will lead to a humane & hopeful adaptation.
Im not sure if you have watched A.O.T but if you have then you will know the tragic hero becoming a villain is something us fans are excited to see. If you haven't watched it then I hope you do, you can see how war and conflict never changes and how A.O.T and Dune both perfectly show leaders have to make the hardest choices for the better outcome even if it means killing 60 billion people. I think it would be a great video idea and to hear your opinions on it.
Forgive me, but if you didn’t pay attention to that scene of Paul and his legions literally wrecking their way into the emperor’s palace, then you wouldn’t understand just how easy this is going to be for Villeneuve. “… Grandfather… You die like an animal.” Coldest fucking filmmaker ALIVE.
Reading through Messiah rn and the story is so interesting. The dialogue can be so beautiful. "The waters healed me of the jihad, and they were afraid of that." But the biggest issue I see is the book seems to be rooted around Paul and Chani's relationship. It's a problem because they seem to have split in the film continuity
My friend and I were talking about how Messiah is going to need to be more from the perspective of Chani or someone else, and divert her character more towards "I love Paul but he's being a bad guy am i right?" Something like that. It also needs this because of how internal the book is and how hard it will be to adapt it into a movie without the copious internal monologues.
I think denis has set it up but many people missed it - after watching dune my husband and I were discussing the film and I pointed out that I didn’t believe Paul’s orders to destroy the houses at the end of Dune was warranted- that a leader as great as he is meant to be would figure out a way to do this without total nuclear war on a galaxy scale. My husband was like “nah that’s the only way” and “worm riding was super cool” (I cleaned up the language). By the end Paul was well on his way to Hitler, and I was disgusted by him - I saw a monster in the making. But I do get that my reading is not the common one.
I think maybe at least half of the run time for DUNE Messiah is likely conflicts with the great houses & spacing guild that clearly has been put so little screen time in both DUNE & DUNE Part 2. We also have Bene Gesserit X factor that Denis could use as a plot device for the alt villainous faction who clearly try to assassinate Paul & his family. Remember, we had Lady Margot Fenring who clearly introduced & carry Harkonnen bloodline with her pregnancy. This could easily bring Harkonnen house back again for that ever approaching revenge. If people can enjoy a whole season of medieval family feud in GoT, than I am pretty sure they can enjoy such political machination storyline in a 3 hour movie, maybe sprinkled with 1 hour actions here & there.
The ultimate problem with Dune, is that Frank Herbert made his hero turned object lesson against the seductiveness of power a little too likeable and approachable. We are supposed to see Paul's creeping failure at dealing with the seductiveness of power as a warning, but instead , we LIKE the young pup Paul, and his slide into literally becoming an inhuman monster is hand-waved away by the reader because we like him. Sometimes I wonder if Frank Herbert did that by design, to draw us fully into the headfookery that is not realizing that our charismatic underdog "Chosen One " has become a monster until it is too late.
He will do a good job. He will have to change the structure of the narrative quite a bit for sure. Most chapters of Messiah are just people talking in rooms. Great amazing rooms, super cinematic rooms....but still just rooms and people. More akin to a stage play than a movie. But this is also what will give him so much freedom to keep the core idea of a tragic anti hero that sees himself partly as a villain and partly as a martyr, a girl that is pushed to be a Goddess and the machinations around the Empire and his Emperor. The fact that is also a slimmer book will give him the opportunity to dig into the lore and expand the universe by showing stuff that is not in Messiah. Like the creation of the Gola could be an interesting visual bit. He will expand on roles that are not even in the book, like Jessica. He will show us the Jihad and the Quizarate. Anyhow, in Denis we trust.
I mean, Oppenheimer was a massive succes and well received film, and that was basically just alot of people talking for 3 hours. It was just made in a way that made it super interesting.
I’ve gotten a lot of comments about my misinterpretation of the Paul/Stilgar h*tler convo, so I want to clear things up as a pinned comment.
To give further context than what I already provided in the video, Paul is telling Stilgar to learn about brutal dictators and warlords of the Old Earth to set him on a path of self-reflection about the holy war they’re currently waging. Part of Paul’s intention is to show Stilgar the error and horror of their ways by likening their campaign to that of H*tler.
However, I still stand by the fact that Paul did want Stilgar to learn history so he could be a more well-rounded servant. He was clearly unimpressed with how Stilgar handled the conversation with Edric and hoped learning about ancient military tactics could improve his skill as a political operator. No one in Dune does anything for one singular reason. Plans within plans and all that.
I’m sorry I didn’t include this in the video. I’m new at this and didn’t really expect to see this many eyes on the video. In the future I will make a point to be more on the money with each level of my analysis.
Thanks for watching.
Having your own opinion is perfectly valid - even if others disagree. I liked your video’s spin on it - made me look at it from a different angle. Exactly the kind of think Frank said he wanted readers to do (use their own brains). Thanks for the video - appreciated it.
!ñrtytgfdx ' 3024
Denis will not adapt Dune Messiah except loosely based on. He will probably call it Dune Part Three. Chani told Paul he is not of the desert. Chani told everyone Paul is a fraud fooling you simple religious people. She is not going to be having Paul's twins, so no set up for Children of Dune. It is a race gender thing. Chani will bring down Paul, the White Savior. Chani, Irulan and surprise Alia vs Paul and Jessica. No Mentants, Guild, Tleilaxu and no Duncan Idaho. Denis wraps up his trilogy in typical Hollywood style. Great effects!
Agree with your comment here, but disagree with your "and effective" in the video - Herbert was writing before the re-examination of Nazi/German internal politics and military proficiency that's happened over the last couple of decades :- Hitler and his Nazi machine massively _ineffective_ from an organisational and military perspective, only the war-aversion following WWII allowed them military success 1938-1941, and Hitler's personal influence fell off rapidly with distance from his 'charisma' - he was entirely unable to control the schemings of Nazi office holders which squandered their advantages and war gains, and had little insight into the politics or intent of either his enemies or allies.
@@yarsivad000.5 Man.
“There’s no way the audience is gonna root for Paul after seeing Messiah”
Attack On Titan fandom: you sure??
💯💯💯
I keep hearing good things about Attack on Titan but I’ve never gotten into any anime (unless Ghibli movies count). Is AOT the best place to start?
@@stopculture At the end of the day, anime is just stories told through animation rather than live action so it should be ok. EDIT: I'll add that the Attack on Titan is one of my favorite animes and it is a experience I recommend to many.
@@stopculture maybe Cowboy Bebob, BlackLagoon, Arcane or some stand alone Vampire Hunter D or Red Line, but if you're into Ghibli you've already started (Ghost in the Shell?). AOT is on Netflix if you live in Asia
Attack on Titan and Arcane are probably the two best places to start.
Messiah needs to be adapted. People need to see the consequences of Paul's crusade, the horror he saw. He says this: “Constitutions become the ultimate tyranny," Paul said.
Yeah, of course. I want it to be adapted! I love the book. I’m just saying, Villeneuve is facing an uphill climb in creating a movie that fans of the first two will be happy to see. Messiah and Dune are entirely different beasts.
@@stopculture I actually wonder if he's going to sort of "compress" children and god emperor into it. I could see it having Paul seeing the golden path and a giant worm thing. The end of it would be this super trippy sequence were we see what his son will become and it ends with Leto II explaining what he is to the audience a tyrant to end all tyrants. I agree with your point that Villneuve may include bits of the war in the film we didn't see. This could be incorporated by showing the history of the Fremen veteran who accuses Paul of betraying the fremen. This is also a key scene I think.
Personally I would love it to open with the interview with the historian whos' about to be executed, that would really set the tone.
Yeah I was thinking he might wanna do that too. It’s the way the Sci-Fi adaptation chose to go about things. And I totally agree about the Fremen veteran part. That scene where he talks to Scytale about how he’s lost faith in Paul is such an important moment in Messiah. He’ll have to squeeze that bit for all it’s worth.
He alluded in a recent interview that this is the why Chani is going to play a bigger role than in the books. It’s to highlight the differences between the two characters. I think he’s going to go all in since he knows Paul is a bad guy
Have you seen how the left views the US constitution?
To be honest, paul referencing hitler isnt that wild considering its 20,000 years in the future. I mean does anyone really get up in arms over genghis khan nowadays? And thats only several hundred years ago. In the future hitler will probably be just another historical figure
It would be interesting to know what kind of information about the 20th century is available 20,000 years from now. What we know about history only goes back about 5,000 years and a lot of what happened has been lost.
But then there's the question about Paul's access to genetic memory. Can he see -- and appreciate -- the painful details and consequences of World War II through the memories of the ancestors he carries within him? Is he actually embracing Hitler's racist rationale, or just Hitler's strategy for domination? Is Paul deliberately overlooking and failing to mention Hitler's bigotry because he knows those aspects won't be available to Stilgar, having been lost to time?
I personally don’t like references to such our recent history as I think it breaks the immersion and feels out of universe. I don’t think that it makes sense for Paul to talk about events that happened 10-20 thousand years ago as there should be plenty of examples much more relevant and memorable to him that happened relatively recently. Although it would be a good reference point for the audience, I would rather Denis show Paul’s character change than having him say it. I feel like it breaks the story telling and should be more of a foot note as it feels like an abrupt insertion of a message rather than a natural one
@@roguewasbanned4746 Great point. I also felt a little caught off guard when I read that scene in the book. I hope Denis Villeneuve can get the feel of Dune Messiah onto the screen without having to adapt it word by word and instead deviate in ways that enhance the story's message.
@@roguewasbanned4746 One thing I like about Star Trek is that it uses references to things that happen in our future for their history. It feels more real that they have history that we don't know about because they're living in the future.
Hm, it'll be an interesting symmetry - the first film ends with Paul and Chani going into the desert, the second - only Chani, so the third having Paul walking alone will be great.
That not how the first book ends. Or the second. Or the third.
@@GrandeTheftDesperado Oh, I've written book instead of film...
This is going to drive me insane until 2029. Thank you for pointing that out!
@@jacklynthomas0 right 😂😭😭
I can see a path where Chani kills Paul at the height of his power, and then Chani would become the Imperial regent because their young children will be the heirs to the empire. Book purists will hate it, but I think that would be a wild character arc for Chani. Consider that the first film starts with Chani asking who the Fremen's next oppressors would be. It'd be a hell of a way to finish the trilogy with Chani effectively becoming the emperor.
I think Denis is going to show us more of the Jihad than the book did, I think that’s where a lot of the action will spring from.
For sure, it's got incredibly epic potential. The problem is that it is only the beginning of Messiah, so my guess would be that scenes from the Jihad will be scattered throughout the whole movie.
You can't put the greatest action in the beginning and let the rest be just politics.
Ya Denis has done a good job showing scenes that brief on in the books. That’s one of the main reasons that makes the films so interesting to the book readers
@@janmajer4662if I has to guess, likely it will be from a veteran pov when deciding whether to help talaxian agents
More scytale, too. Villeneuve might make it an among us facedancer thriller
I REALLY hope he goes this way, and with that tying Chani back into the history, I simply cannot see Messiah being adapted with the way thay Part ll ended
I remember that scene when Paul is telling Stilgar about Genghis Kahn and Hitler saying that they killed millions of people. Stilgar thinks that they did this as individuals and can’t comprehend that they did it as leaders. He remarks, “They must have had some very devastating weapons.” There is nothing more devastating than an idea.
Eugeny was applied in both cases. Gratuituous hate for the different. Conquering, show of force, rule of might. Tyranny is all about that. It's called fascism for a reason.
I always love that conversation because it's Kay the same way how people keep looking at old and ancient structures and believe that they had help from aliens because they can't believe that someone could build structures like that with simple tools. When not only have we demonstrated that we can do that and we have done it historically throughout multiple different cultures, but also that the buildings and structures we make now are way more incredibly advanced than those ancient relics, which should be proof of the lineage of how much we've learned from building ancient shit in the past. Go tapping the pyramid builders, for example. Could only dream of building something as tall as our modern skyscrapers. They would probably literally describe it as touching the gods.
Hate to be that guy, but it’s the other way around. Stilgar thought they killed millions by themselves, which is what impressed him and prompted the line about the incredible weapons they had. When Paul corrects him, stilgar can’t comprehend it because he thinks numbers in the tens of millions are pathetic and not worth mentioning in the face of the tens of BILLIONS the Atriedes imperium slaughtered during the Jihad. He doesn’t understand why Paul even bothered mentioning this tidbit and is maybe even a bit impatient.
@@jordanwhite352 tons of the architecture we make nowadays pales in comparison to Old World architecture. Stop talking out of your ass entirely.
@@jordanwhite352 Are you sure that the current buildings are better than the ancient ones? I mean, it's the latter that have managed to survive for centuries.
Total misinterpretation to say that Paul was referencing Hitler “lovingly” or “getting off” on it. He was trying to make Stilgar understand that he wasn’t a good person by showing him evil figures of the past.
Exactly this. It makes an empathetic reader like Paul more, because he's self critical, and tragic, and tried to educate and raise up his followers to be critical even of himself.
If Paul was referencing Hitler cynically that would mean he isnt actually glorifying the bad man which means he doesnt want to be like the bad man. Which makes Paul less evil. He redeems himself slightly by renouncing evil in reference. A double edged sword. Irony within irony
@@NongHuma a man understanding that what he is doing is wrong and continuing to do it anyway makes him worse not better
So is Paul a better person if he glorifies the Austrian painter in earnest from the bottom of his Other Memory? A double edged sword. Irony within Irony
yeah i dont know how he made this whole video after reading that line since paul is literally despondent the entire book because he hates that the jihad has gotten out of his control. He isn't saying it admiringly, he's just being realistic about who he is.
Denis is the perfect man to adapt Messiah. So many scenes are reminiscent of his other works
And he said he would only make it if it will be BETTER than PART TWO!!!
Dude, Oh how am I excited for this movie
After how badly he gutted Part 2? Doubdful.
@@OverLorD768 Oh you pitiful book acolyte. We've got two great movies to enjoy and you've got nothing! Hahaha
Your life would be so much better if you just were able to accept an adaptation for your beloved novel.
@@janmajer4662 well, judging by how much he botched almost every single character in pt.2, removed other important characters, it would be near impossible to not make better movie.
@@lxdead5585 Too bad for you, because there won't ever be a better adaptation.
Am I the only one who has actually read these books...
Paul is forced by circumstances to take up the mantle of Messiah, the Fremen "Jihad" is something he regrets but is powerless to prevent... The Benegeserett crafted the Fremen religion knowing that war on Arakkis was inevitable, and it might be used to their advantage. Jessica takes up the role of "Reverend Mother" to facilitate their accommodation into Fremen society and Paul goes along because he realizes that events have been set in motion that cannot be stopped whether he is a part of it or not, he goes along partially to give himself and his mother a chance at survival, partially to avenge his father, and partly to seek revenge on the Baron. It is during his time with the Fremen that Paul discovers what he calls "Krazelek" his "twilight struggle" what he finds is that the events that have been set in motion lead to human extinction... Paul discovers a way out, a way to change the course of events but wracked by the guilt of what has been done in his name and realizing that he would be forced to become the greatest despot in human history to force humanity down his "golden path" he can't do it. Paul chooses to destroy himself and bequeaths his "golden path" to his son Leto II leaving humanities fate in his hands. That is Dune Messiah, it's the end of Paul's story and the beginning of Leto's. When Paul is talking about Stalin and Hitler and the other "Great Despots" he isn't venerating them... He is trying to get Stilgar to see what they have become... Paul isn't "The Chosen One" he's a pawn in the Benegeserett plan THE PLAN THAT GENETICALLY ENGINEERED HIS VERY BIRTH and orchestrated his rise to power to further their own ends. Jessica throws a wrench in those plans by giving birth to him one Generation early and because of it, Paul is not the placid puppet they intended he breaks free of their control just enough to set his own plan in motion, Leto II, who he entrusts to do what he could not, to become the "Tyrant" to change Arakkis, the worms and the spice cycle to "swerve the wheel" and set humanity on a course that does not lead to extinction, Paul's "Golden Path."
Thank you, someone who understands Paul's struggles and motivations. He does not sympathize or venerates other dictators, he despises them- but he despises himself even more, because he has become something worse than any of them could ever hope to be. He didn't want any of this, he was forced into a situation and he tried to the best that he could with it. Paul Atreides is far from being a hero, let alone a messiah, but he is not necessarily a villain either.
this. I felt like the video was in love with Paul being this unredeemable villain but I think the story gets more complicated with these additional reasonings.
edit: Also, wasnt there a conversation between Leto and Paul, where Paul didnt look far enough in the future and saw the the Golden Path worked and humanity would adapt and survive, but Paul just saw the suffering (?) and stayed away from it? Or am I mixing up something?
@@gabrielmedeiros987 exactly
Thank you!! Seems like hardly anyone gets it.
@@SETHthegodofchaos you are correct - Paul can't stomach the Golden Path after getting a taste of the scale of suffering "necessary" to accomplish it, especially after already seeing the outcome of the Jihad that he kickstarted.
After Blade Runner I'm willing to blindly trust him with anything.
after every film 😂
I love Sicario, then he got the chance to do 2049, and I loved that movie too!he made me love the Atreides family after the 1st part! I am pretty sure he will make it work for us fans who hasnt read the books!
Hahahahahahahahahahaha
He will give many long vistas.
BR 2049 and Sicario>>>>> both Dune movies
Here lies a toppled god. His fall was not a small one. We did but build his pedestal, A narrow and a tall one.
Love that. Big Ozymandias vibes
One of my favorite quotes in the whole series.
This has bounced around in my head for a few decades.
I re-read Messiah recently and wondered if Denis might open his adaptation with this, similarly to how he opened Part 1 and 2
@@cognician_ 100% . Many things will be completely difficult and left out. But like dune part 2 what's important is he keeps the themes and the general conclusion/ heart of the story.
As someone who loved Messiah, what I'm actually worried, but also interested, about is how they're gonna adapt Chani. In the book, Paul has next to everything he could have. So, when his mental state, and in-turn the relationships around him, start to decay and ultimately lead to his demise, it's pretty emotional and kathartic.
But, the way Villeneuve ended Part Two makes me think that he's gonna go a very different route for Paul and Chani, where the movie is about them reconciling and ultimately the birth of their children rather than a slow decay of their relationship. If he goes for this route I don't know if the fall-from-grace for Paul would hit as well as it does in the book.
Ugh you’re so right why tf didn’t I talk about this in the video lmao. That’s the biggest change from the end of the first book to the end of Part Two and Dune 3 is going to have to grapple with that choice to have her walk out in a big way. I’m so curious as to how he’ll change it.
Chani is so much more of a passive pragmatist in the book. She barely cares that he marries Irulan, but Denis chose to make her much more of an active participant in the story. This change worked out great for an adaptation of Dune, but it could definitely gum up the works for an adaptation of Messiah. Guess we shall see 🤷♂️
@stopculture yeah, I trust in villenueve to do something special but I really hope he manages to nail home that ending. Also Messiah JUST got confirmed, according to Deadline, about an hour ago lolll
Lol good timing on my part then I guess! I assumed it would obvi get the green light eventually but I hadn’t seen that confirmation before uploading
Think about Michael Corleone and Kay's relationship in Godfather I and II. I think Villeneuve can do it.
my best guess is that Chani would come to an understanding OR becoming a single mother in a sietch to Leto II and Ghanima, or just the first Leto II and still spite Paul. I really wish I can see the 3rd movie soon, knowing how Villeneuve has the talent for corrupted protagonist
I think messiah being so short it will see the most amount of changes and additions to its plot, mainly because there is room for it. I just hope the ending of messiah stays intact as it is one of the best parts of the novel.
i think it will since Villeneuve's Dune is really centered around Paul. As much as (spoiler) Paul doesn't really die at the end of this book, he kinda does in a way, it's a neat conclusion to its arc, even in the books, Paul Atreideis, the Emperor of the Known Universe, dies that day. It concludes pretty neatly the movies.
@@MrChokladPaul Atreides died the day he killed Jamis and was reborn as Paul-Muad’Dib. Paul-Muad’Dib died the day Chani did, and was reborn The Preacher. The Preacher died the day Alia ordered him dead, and lived forever on in Leto II. And when Leto died that was truly the end for all incarnations of Paul.
I was thinking the same thing. Some of my favorite parts of the first book were cut out of Parts 1 + 2, but I also think Villeneuve crafted a coherent work that stands on its own (A friend who never read the books enjoyed the recent films and said it all made sense to him). Messiah being a shorter work opens up room for actually seeing the Spacing Guild, Navigators, more visions, etc. I doubt he'll bring in the worm-spice cycle, but who knows?
I think the first half of Messiah should be about the Holy War, instead of skipping most of it like in the book.
Denis is trying to adapt the "spirit" of Dune, especially in part 2 with the way he changed Chani's story and Paul's sister. I think if he sticks to a rather simple storyline and don't get too bogged down by all the political intrigue in Messiah it'll be a fine adaptation (and of course audiences will be looking forward to big space battles )
still kinda hoped he included more of the Guild. they do play a very important part of the story
@@nguyenviethoang138 maybe in part 3 with all the space conquest Denis will include more guild roles 😁
@@smdanny1 it probably would cost him more screen time than expected because he did not explain in the first 2 movies why the Guild would conspire with Gaius against the Atreides
If by "space battles" you mean actually out in space rather than on planets, it'd be a wild departure from the books.
There are zero "space battles" in all 6 novels.
People love Darth Vadar, people always like a relatable and humanistic villain.
Problem is, you can't end with Paul as villain unless you also portray what it was that Paul turned away from. That means making Children of Dune (at least) in to another film.
The trick is people prefer a refemption arch. Negative archs are much harder to pull off, especially with how things go with Dune. Herbert didn't get the desired response for the first book and course corrected in his eyes. At this point, it's making Paul a sympathetic villain, which shows difficult odds but not too much where choice is removed.
I haven't read the book, but given as much as I've heard, it's not going to be easy. People want closure or a satisfying ending. Honestly, I think (this is my bias and not Herbert's words) I think it would be best to end with him as the blasphemer of Arrakis. End the cautionery tale at its message. Don't follow blind guides... Though I could see it ending with him walking out into the desert too. Sorry for the ramble.
Paul sees Chani's death coming but lets this happen because it will enfold the Golden Path (later pursued by Leto II), this is also why he lets the Jihad occur. He does not want to be Hitler or Genghis, but compares himself to them since his prescience is forcing him to take a path with resembles the ways of some of the worst tyrants known to men. If he doesn't THINGS WILL BE WORSE. In the end he walks into the desert willingly, and while one can presume it has something to do with the loss of eyesight (which the Fremen look down on), it is more likely that he does not want to continue with the life he is currently living. He never wanted to be the Kwisatz Haderach and he also never wanted to be an evil emperor killing billions, it is simply out of necessity, for the alternative is death, slavery, torture and worse. An alternative so bad he would rather let Chani die in childbirth than save her, and he loved her more then anything in the world.
Paul is a 'good' character, cursed by his prescience which forces him to do the unspeakable to prevent something far worse than a Jihad. He sacrifices everything in order for his son to finish what he started.
if all three films weren't noticeably different genres, i feel like it easier to accept all the changes. Part 1 was a drama. Part 2 was an action flick... part 3 is more philosophical
I think Villenueve will need to show the actual crusade, which can be exciting action, but also really drive home the horror of the consequences.
Anyone with doubts should read the original script for Sicario. Dennis will adjust dialogue and remove/adapt entire scenes (like the famous Sicario ending) in service of the film.
I didn't finish Sicario. It literally triggered memories of bad cops. I was literally unable to deal with it. If he wants to make you hate a protagonist I think he can succeed just fine.
Part 1: intro of the Harkonnen takeover and retreat from Arrakis narrated by Chani
Part 2: intro of the atreides massacre and the intrigue of Arrakis narrated by Irulan
Part 3: intro of the Jihad and its effects on the galaxy alongside Paul’s conflicting feelings narrated by Alia???
YES! you cant never have enough Alia
More Alia would be great. Wonder if a thirty-years-old actress will be 'in the film' though, alongside Paul. Will they go for Prometheus aging-make-up on Golden(Path)Boy?
Dune Messiah may not be what typical Hollywood film viewers want, but it is what they need. I would love for Hollywood to stop treating adult film goers like short attention spanned idiots and give us a film that engages our brains with thoughtful scenes as opposed to non stop action. Then again, Denis didn't put the dinner scene in Dune, which would have been a great introduction to the political dynamics to come. I trust Denis to make a great Messiah film, but I don't yet know if we can trust him to make a faithful adaptation to close Paul's relevance in the story. They need to show him as a complete tyrant and not sugar coat his downfall.
I agree. I think 2023 showed a lot of promising signs that studios are finally beginning to treat general audiences like adults again, and Dune 2 continued this into 2024. I’m hoping that between Barbenheimer and Dune 2, studios take the hint that we’re tired of all the slop and want a steady stream of substantive media for a change.
I agree with you, and I think Denis probably struggled with how to adequately portray the negative aspects of Pauls "ascension" (even Frank Herbert in his own opinion failed to do so in his first book). Denis' choice to let it be shown through Chani was simple and clever in my opinion.
Dune and Dune Part 2 did exactly that, dude. So did Oppenheimer and Barbie, which were huge hits. That's not the issue. It's just that Dune Messiah is not a cinematic book. That's just how it is. I don't expect people to sit through two hours of barely anything happening, and _I don't want to either._ That doesn't make Hollywood guilty of treating us like "attention-spanned idiots". I'm certainly not an "attention-spanned idiot" either and I think Dune Messiah is not worth adapting. I think the story concluded great with Dune 2. We don't need any more.
Messiah concludes the "Muad'Dib saga" as the tragedy it is. Children is the tragedy of Alia and God Emperor is the tragedy of Leto II.
Those Atreides are Greek, after all...
Villeneuve has tackled slow, deeply existential movies with great succes before. Hell be just fine.
Chalamet's casting was a brilliant stroke, even though he could've been EVEN YOUNGER, to play a book-accurate Paul Atreides. Paul Atreides was an introverted and affectionate wisp of a youth given training to become the overpowered despot he eventually became. Chalamet at the end of Villeneuve's Dune 2 is still on course. We must wait a few years for Chalamet to age into his role in Dune Messiah, which takes place a number of years later after the Jihad and hope he has the actor's mettle and talent to play the conflicted genocidal emperor and bitter outcast Paul Atreides became. I suppose, because even Frank Herbert did not believe he got his point across with paul Atreides, he wrote God Emperor of Dune, making of Paul's son Leto II an even more grotesque and tyrannical genocidal maniac who was near immortal and ruled thousands of years in a feat of literary overkill...
When Paul made his H*tler comment he was bringing it up to compare his own kill count to those of the past and wonders how the future will look back on him as we look back on our own history of tyrants. I don't think this comment will be in the new movie. If it is i'll be surprised.
Yes but he did want Stilgar to learn about both tyrants of Earth to instill a better sense of political strategy into him. I also think he mentioned his own kill count/place in history to help temper Stilgar to some degree, though. My takeaway was that Paul does want Stilgar to expand his education bc he was unhappy with how he performed in the convo with Edric, but he also hopes a side effect of this knowledge will be a deeper understanding of the true cost of the war they’re waging. Plans within plans, ya know?
It also has deeper meaning to it. Stilgar assumes Hitler killed that many people with superweapons, but he really killed them with his ideas - just like Paul killed the victims of his Jihad with the ideas surrounding him.
I think Paul could be depicted more as a villain in Dune Messiah, as someone who has lost their way and lost control. Though perhaps is shown to have finally realised his mistakes and shows remorse as his own life collapses before apparently walking off into the desert and dying alone.
My favourite part in all of Dune is when Paul goes to the home depot in Arrakis and noticed two men vey similar to him and Stilgar buying supplies to manufacture Spice, and he confronts them in the parking lot, look them in the eyes and tells them "Stay out of my territory." And that it's the moment we realise he's been the villain all along. Extremely powerful stuff.
Yeah and when he told china he was the danger all along,fantastic stuff
@@lanternsupremacy420 Another scene that gave me goosebumps was the one where Baron Vladimir Harkonnen looks at Duke Leto Atreides straight in the eyes and yells at him “I will kill your wife, I will kill your son, I will kill your infant daughter.”... ICONIC!!
I love messiah so much, that final climax was built up so well and was so page turning. Also MY MAN
I feel like Denis has to incorporate some of Children and will probably cut some of the boring parts of Messiah to make room so it has more exciting plot points that translate well to the big screen. I personally feel the end of Children is a more fitting end to Paul’s story than the end of Messiah, but it would be a lot for him to mush two books into one movie.
There's a lot of weird shit in Children..... the tons of incest being pretty high on the totem pole, especially considering the age of the twins
@havokmusicinc "tons of incest"
If you're referring to the ending, you entirely missed the fact that Ghanima took Farad'n as a concubine the same way Leto I did with Jessica. Her marriage with her brother was purely political.
Given he's said he's finishing with Part 3, I wouldn't be surprised if he merged Messiah and Children of Dune like the mini series did.
It’ll be so entertaining to see a bunch of movie only fans get absolutely bamboozled by the direction this series will go into after the first 2 films
As one of them I'm so sick of "literally me" loosers can't wait
I’ve never read the Dune books, and I’m planning reading them only after Part Three comes out, but everything I’ve seen from him gives me full confidence that he can do it justice. Most of the people online who have read the book have said he adapted it well, I myself thought it was so good I went to see Part Two twice (alongside friends, who also said it was amazing). I’ve also seen *and* read Arrival, and I would say he perfectly adapted it. If anyone can adapt Messiah, it’s gotta be Denis.
read the books, yeah, Denis fucking rocks lol
I mean, part two has some major differences compared to the book in terms of how the story is structured plus some details are different, but all the main events and scenes are there, and they're gorgeous.
Part One is almost a 1:1 depiction of the book, it's slower, packed with a lot of information about the world we're putting ourselves in, and it's also just the first part of the book, part two required much more writing work since in the book a lot happens between the events showed in the movie, and these events are properly spaced out. A movie made like that would've been difficult, maybe you would've needed even 3 movies for just the first book, but then you'd risk ending up making 2 movies that feel too slow and unconclusive, and one movie that has all the conclusions in it and nothing else.
All things considered, the book is amazing, the movies are amazing and even tho dune messiah will require probably the most ammount of rewrite to adapt it to a movie, after part two I am very confident in this dude.
Interesting about Arrival in that some of the key parts in the film that made it work came not from the initial core writing, but from other people within the production helping work it out, which parallels the actual plot of the film which is kinda fun.
Just finished reading dune messiah and didn’t expect for this video to spoil anything. I’m sad that i now know paul survived his dessert walk. That would have been cool to learn for the first time in children of dune but oh well
Yes i got spoiled aswell. Spoiler warning for dune messiah and then spoiles children of dune. Was so fucking pissed
There is not a single hint that paul was attracted to Alia. Him and stilgar were just stating obvious facts.
Agreed. There’s a brief moment when Gaius Mohiam suggested a breeding between the two and Paul put a quick stop to that.
Maybe it’s just a “me” thing but I def sensed some weird innuendos in that part of the book. Clearly the people who did the Sci-Fi adaptation did too lol if you watch it, it’s very very suggestive
@@stopculture there’s a moment of realization that smacks Paul in the face. In fact stilgar brings it to his awarness and it was embarrassing for Alia who with all of her vast knowledge wasn’t aware of it either.
Paul clearly didn’t think of her in that way when he too was caught off guard by it, but then his training, awareness, and no doubt mentat capabilities probably kicked in.
She is interested in having his children. He thinks about it for a moment critically and decides against it. This shows really well how far removed from any human morality he has become. Incest is a quid pro quo situation to him and he failed to find enough positives to go along with the ideas of the Sisterhood, who wanted that incest child.
Villenueve said he wants to only explore Paul’s story arc.
which makes me think he will include aspects of the 3rd book (children of dune).
he already changed significant aspects of the first book. so it’s not beyond reason to think he will exclude Leto II and Ghanima completely, but still use story beats from CoD that fallow Paul’s death.
I'll return to this video in 4 years
That’s the beauty of Paul Atreides. He becomes an evil tyrant. No fairy tale BS.
They have enough. The relationship between Irulan and Chani the holy wars and the stuff with the ghola.
Dennis doesn't even use the word "jihad".
Yeah.........I hate that.
Yep. I call that cowardice.
not yet, it's a term that will be better applied after the event has taken place, not before
@@elijahalbiston you do have a point on this , makes it have more weight
@@snoot6629 Exactly. We see flashbacks or conversations concerning the event, hear the word, and it makes more sense than confusing the audience. The emotion of regret afterwards will weigh heavier than fear of Holy War.
I have yet to watch part two because of reasons, but seeing half my dumbass friends unironically chanting lisan al gaib at the first occasion before mouthbreathing heavily fills me with dread. Okay I'm joking, mostly, but it's still a bit weird.
People by and large are stupid and lack media literacy. I'm not surprised at all that people unironically support Paul.
the las point is so important to me.
I agree Messiah seems really, really hard to adapt well.. Maybe "impossible". But I thought it was impossible we would get this far so.... I can't doubt that he can do it again.
Didnt realize there would be CoD spoilers :(
Granted I now know that they're at the beginning of the book but a bit bummed that it spoiled me
I think that audiences are underestimated. For example, while Game of Thrones did have some action, it was known for it's plotting and non-action more than anything. I think that a Dune Messiah that is loyal to the original material could still do very well.
That said, I don't think that's what we'll get. Dune part 2 starts with an action scene that shouldn't have been there, for example. I think part 3 is going to start with the jihad and it's going to show us a lot more of that. They already left it in a weird place with Chani walking off into the desert. I think it's going to pick up right from there before any time jump (if we get one at all). We'll see some combat, we'll see Paul get into Chani's good graces again, and then we'll go into the actual content from Messiah.
Paul’s explaining of Genghis Khan and Adolf wasn’t to give praise to these individuals. The heavy burden of the jihad weighs incredibly heavy on Paul’s conscious.
Additionally Paul didn’t “let” the Fremen kill 60 billion. Early on in Dune it was established that Paul, Jessica, and all the members of Stilgar’s band would have to die in order to prevent that future. Unfortunately, it was too late for Paul to prevent the jihad but his fate was ultimately tragic as he lived countless futures trying to prevent the jihad and far worse from happening.
And yet the biggest problem is how Villeneuve will deal with how he already adapted Chani and how to make it work with Dune Messiah.
Yeah I was trying to keep things brief but I should’ve mentioned that. It’s a huge book change and it’ll definitely require a lot of deviation from the text in Dune 3
Not really. People change.
And power is very attractive.
I started reading Dune after the first movie, and fell in love with the book collection. As I was reading through Messiah, before the second movie came out, I was extremely skeptical about how they would possibly portray Paul for the bigger audience. Since then we see the movie part ways in some of the book's "plans within plans". Your video could synthesize everything so greatly man, amazing work!!!!!!!
Thank you! I’m glad you enjoyed it :)
This whole thing doing the rounds about herbert failing with his message in the first book so he wrote the second to correct the first is a bit dubious and I can't seem to find where herbert said this. Link?
Oh I’m not sure he ever said it outright. That part was kind of a joke. It’s kind of just an assumption I made. I mean, it’s hard to read the Hitler line and the bit about preventing the constitution for his subjects and not think he put those in there mostly to tell the people who didn’t get the idea in round one: “STOP WORSHIPPING THIS GUY! HE’S BAD NEWS.” Lol
IIRC Brian Herbert said more or less that in the foreword he wrote for Dune Messiah. I could be entirely wrong about all that though lol
@@stephengrant4841 And he didn't show Paul as a nice charakter in his own book "Paul of Dune" (That's my opinion at least) which takes place in the time between Dune and Dune Messiah. .
Real quick I just wanna clarify that Paul isn't actually bragging when he's talking about Hitler in that scene. He's partially expressing his guilt.
"My Liege makes a joke," Korba said, voice trembling. "The Jihad has brought ten thousand worlds into the shining light of - "
"Into the darkness," Paul said. "We'll be a hundred generations recovering from Muad'dib's Jihad. I find it hard to imagine that anyone will ever surpass this." A barking laugh erupted from his throat.
"What amuses Muad'dib?" Stilgar asked.
"I am not amused. I merely had a sudden vision of the Emperor Hitler saying something similar. No doubt he did."
Thanks for clarifying. Tbh I should’ve re-read the chapter before making the video. Honestly I’m very new at this at I didn’t expect this video to have so many eyes on it. I’m trying to be better about making sure I’m on the money with all my analysis in the future.
@@stopculture No problem dude, I get it. Made a couple vids myself. Overall though I enjoyed the video, keep it up!
@@CheeF_Phettythanks! I’ll check out yours
read a pretty baseless rumor that the movie will start off 6 years later instead of 12, and maybe even be an entire movie, set before book messiah but idk seems far fetched
There is an actual book set turing that time (Paul of Dune) but wirtten by Frank Herbert's son not himself. Alia is 4 years old in it. So I wonder now wether they will use at least part of that book for the movies. (I read the book ones but didn't like it.)
Given Anya Taylor-Joy will be playing Alia in Messiah [which is teased with her cameo in Part 2], if anything it will be a bigger time jump, not a shorter one.
I'm 2/3 through the first book, having gone there after loving both movies on their own merits. Thanks for the "spoilery" preview of Messiah. If anything, it's made me more excited about the third installment. Vileneuve has had several years to think about this. It will be fascinating to see what he does. Subbed!
I am a bit afraid that Paul's inner struggle cannot be represented as well in a movie as it is in the book, since you know you don't have his thought process constantly laid out for you in a movie
It's almost as if DV's style was incompatible with the original work
@@leonardcsapo416 Or he saw how clumsy the voice overs were in the 1984 film and wanted to avoid that [and most adaptions have to deal with the thoughts of the characters on the page not being something you can show in a film unless you use a voice over which is often regarded as a storytelling cop out].
Dune Messiah reads like The Godfather Part Two.
It is almost exactly that.
Watch the SciFi "Children of Dune", which has as its first part the whole of Dune Messiah, and there is a very distinct montage that is exactly the settling of accounts.
The problem with this condemnation of Paul is the whole prophetic powers thing. Paul was constantly seeing the consequences of alternative choices and that blurs all the moral lines (especially since the rejected options aren't explicitly spelled out)
Paul mentions Hit because it is a future so far into the future that the context of ww2 has been lost and Hit is seen as just one more conqueror
Paul isn't an antihero any more than he's a hero: he's a tragic figure in a classical Greek mode who can see a very dark future but can do NOTHING about it (or, more accurately, can't bring himself to "do what needs to be done").
It remains to be seen whether there's an audience for that sort of VERY ancient story...
Hot take maybe, but adapting Messiah and not Children of Dune would be disrespectful to Frank Herberts philosophy and vision.
If Villeneuve checks out after Messiah (as he's hinted), I'm curious if there's a filmmaker you think would be well suited to take the reins? I have *no* idea, personally 😭😅
@@tysonngubeni8545Film director here. I'm cautiously curious about who's gonna direct Children of Dune, because I'll try to get in to adapt God Emperor of Dune, which I love very much and I already have ideas for how to adapt some aspects of the book to screen 😅.
@@RodrickMarsMoon All the best, Rodrick! It would be so great if there's so much personal investment in the material 💯💯😅🙏
I think it needs to go through God Emperor.
@@tysonngubeni8545 JJ Abrams! (ugh, hopefully not)
I think it's fantastic, we got our hero's journey plot with part 1 and 2, and now the genre can be taken somewhere it's never been for a blockbuster.
It doesn't need lots of action. It just needs to look dope.
I think it's safe to say Villeneuve's adaptation of Messiah is already set to deviate drastically from the book. Which is most likely a good thing.
My bet is there's going to be a large focus on his reconciliation with Chani. Unless she's already pregnant, in which case she will die in childbirth in the desert and Paul will come to retrieve the twins, which would kind of force some elements of Children of Dune to play out in part 3.
I don't think we'll see the entirety of the jihad play out, but I'm sure we'll see some of it. And there's going to have to be some sort of time jump at some point, likely by act 2 of the film, to get adult Alia into the picture.
It's kind of fun to speculate. This is an interesting puzzle to solve after seeing all of the changes made during part 2. But I have high hopes and a lot of faith in Denis as a filmmaker and storyteller! It's gonna be a long wait for part 3.
Yeah he will definetely show a bit of the jihad, especially considering the fact the we don't actually get to see any of that in the book. It's talked about, but happens off screen.
My idea is that it will open with some visions of Paul that depicts exactly what is happening around the galaxy by the hands of the fremen under his command, it will last quite a while compared to other visions and have some weight to it, to really drive home how much cruelty has happened.
I don't think any complex storyline is gonna be made regarding the jihad, but something will have to be adapted because at the end of the day dune Messiah is more than half the book merely about power plays and politics of the new empire and the new religion, which is cool in the book but hard to adapt to a movie.
Maybe the twins will be an element of the story that is going to be somewhat sacrified, considering he isn't really interested in continuing the movies beyond the third, but it's also too important to skip it entirely of change it dramatically.
Also the role Chani has in the movies is quite different from the book, she will certainly be more central in Denis's version.
I'm just wondering how the hell is he going to make the Gild Navigators on screen, i dont think he's gonna skip on that, but in the books they're weird af lol
If it deviates a lot it would be a waste
the only hero for me in ----- DUNE ----- is Duke Leto
What about the DUNC?
for me its the harkonnens and they won fair and square, paul cheated.
@@TheDalisama ya your right, i was going to include him & then i started thinking about Golas
@@1183newman The Harkonnens cheated first by getting the Sardaukar to help them. Plus they kidnapped and tortured Yueh's wife to break his conditioning.
Says spoiler warning for messiah, proceeds to spoil children of dune
I wouldn't say Paul is referencing these other tyrants lovingly. Rather he was being sardonic out of hatred for what he was doing and what he had become.
The issue you present after 8 minutes or so, is exactly what worries me. Yea, the book is amazing and it works for its media format. But as a final chapter to a Blockbuster trilogy, it really doesn't bring too much to work with. So just like you, I'll be trying to rest peacefully repeating in my mind "Trust in Denis".
fair point, but Part One is also a movie that you wouldn't really describe as a good first movie of a blockbuster trilogy. I don't really think people in the future will believe these movies came out one at a time and not as a "package" because of how they play out. In hindsight, Dune 1 is a terrible gamble, there's no ending, it's slow, it's a hard sci-fi world the mainstream is not familiar with, who the hell would produce that?
Luckily for us, Denis has that big Director energy that allowed him to get it done and prove it works, but none of this is conventional I'd say.
Even Star Wars, it's amazing, yes, but much less dense, much more enjoyable, has much more defined archetypes, easy story to follow along. It's still a complex sci-fi world never seen before on the big screen, but every other element is recognisable, you have a hero, it's a true hero, you have a villain, it's a true villain, they're connected and yadda yadda.
Dune is complicated, things are not as they seem and there are no really strong archetypes, which is what makes it so good and interesting, but, again, complicated for the masses.
But nevertheless, they're working, and I think i goes to show how much a good director and a good story can connect with people, even when the story is not conventional.
There's loads of stuff he can bring in (unused in parts one and two) to give resolution to the cinematic experience, I think. :)
It's been a while since I read Messiah but I'm pretty sure it is clear that Paul hates the jihad and what it ultimately does to the universe and the Freman, is terrified of the future he sees and ultimately is trying to lessen the carnage that is inevitable. He ultimately is a failed character because he refuses to make the sacrifice needed to save the universe that his son eventually makes.
I really think at least the first half hour or so of Messiah will focus on Paul’s jihad and the ramifications of that on the other characters and this is where most of the action will come from, aside from the stone burner and scytale stuff. Frank Herbert tended to leave out a lot of action sequences to focus on the political aspects, but DV will flesh them out. I think DV will also find a way to bring Lady Jessica into a more prominent role, rather than leave her on Caladan for the whole thing. I also think he might use Paul’s prescience or some kind of flash forward sequence to show us a bit of what’s to come and the future with the Golden Path (Leto II sandworm?) especially if he’s not going to adapt past Messiah. And a lot of the film will definitely focus on the tension between Irulan and Chani. But either way DV has done a great job so far so i have high hopes for this!
In DV we trust. I think he will take elements of Messiah, but mostly just work with a screenwriter to create a worthy sequel to part 2 that brings Paul and Chani's main story to a satisfying (if not happy) conclusion. I don't even think it'll be called Messiah. I think it'll be Dune: Part 3.
Ive been thinking the same thing since I finished reading messiah. While there could be some cool parts to be adapted like the ghola, face dancers, tlielaxu, and stoneburners you can’t ignore the genocide that Paul’s going to have to bring on. Will be very interesting to see how denis villenueve handles this hurdle.
It would be cool if Denis will show the holy war, planets to planets attack that would be awesome.
6:19 Dang it. I thought it was only spoilers for Dune Messiah. 😭
Can he combine Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. What do you think about that?
Yeah definitely. It’s what the sci-di adaptation did. I don’t think he’ll use as much of COD as that adaptation did, mostly because he won’t have the time for it. But he could easily use elements of COD for an epilogue of sorts.
I’m excited to read (and eventually, see!) Messiah; based on my interpretation of the wiki pages, my conception of Paul’s story is that he is less villain and more tragic figure trapped by his prescience, enduring a years long “gom jabbar” to see is he is human. His prescience grows more accurate until it is so precise he can see all potentialities - he is the kwisatz haterach - but the KH being the fullest, perfectest human (in the bene gesseret philosophy) is actually somehow subhuman because he lacks true free will. This is finally amplified by his physical blindness, because he becomes completely dependent on the visions for everyday activities - he can still “see,” but at what cost. So him losing his prescience and wandering into the desert is him passing the gom jabbar, surrendering his power in order to reclaim his will and humanity.
Later, his son becomes an eternal Worm-God tyrant for 3,000 years to take up the mantle of “inhuman” willingly, in order that the human species as a whole may reclaim their freedom from prescience. Paul gave up his power to become human, Leto II surrendered his humanity to give power to humans.
But again, that’s just my take after reading Wikipedia pages. Probably once I actually read Messiah, Children, etc. themselves my perspective will change.
Any thoughts on him merging this book and Children into one long movie? Could it work? Maybe include a mid movie time jump to allow Alia to grow up. I haven't read these books yet.
Tbh I don’t think it would be something he’d do. I could see him pulling some plot lines from COD and turning them into an epilogue of sorts, but he’s been pretty clear from the jump that for him, Messiah is as far as he goes in terms of adaptation. He’s spoken in interviews about how Frank got a little too “out there” in the later books for any large-scale Hollywood adaptation, which is definitely true lol.
To be clear, paul was not hypocritical in his opinion of being damned to the desert when blind. He many times stated and proved that despite eyes he could look at you and know what you were wearing, know your facial features, and small gestures. Despite eyes he could see. Only when his visions began to fade was he truly blind and walked into the desert, truly free.
The fallen "hero's" wife gives birth to twins and dies in child birth...Now where have I heard that before...
Hi, just wanted to say I've really enjoyed this video but I would've appreciated a warning that you were also going to spoil a plot point for Children of Dune. I've only read the first two books so I had no idea about that
Same bro
Messiah is my favorite Dune book (with the clarification that I haven’t read any of those not written by Frank Herbert… I didn’t even like his later ones enough to bother reading someone else’s)
When I read the original Dune trilogy the first time I was led to believe that I probably wouldn’t like the second one very much, and that, possibly only the first one was great… And I immediately disagreed! I loved the first dune and needed to read more, and was so pleasantly surprised that I loved the second one even more! It was just such a refreshing and fascinating take on a protagonist, I had no idea how much I wanted that.
I feel the third film will be a somewhat combination of Messiah and Children.
Wouldnt this history be lost with time considerimg how far in the future this is
I hope it’s good
When it comes to how Herbert decided to treat Paul in Dune Messiah, the term “overcorrection” distinctly comes to mind.
Agree, just re-read it after many years, and had forgotten how different it is from the original, how focused on palace intrigue and people in rooms talking. Like the chatty parts of Game of Thrones, without much of the action. I think you're on to something in this video. Very likely Villeneuve will find the missing ingredients he needs among scenes from the (in the book, off-stage) war raging across the Universe. But, there's no avoiding how dark it gets. This overall story is a tragedy, and Messiah is where all of the bills come due.
i can see big dennis making another path for messiah anyway, we have chani leaving into the desert isntead of just being somewhat passive, Alia not even born by the end, and more. so i imagine he has his own vague outlines/plans for a messiah which has a fairly different plot. railing off the dome i can see it starting off towards the end of the main jihad so we can get a few battles and displaying pauls dictatorial nature, then act 2 + 3 having all the scheming and building on the issues of his reign, maybe with chani acting as a preacher/rebel against him. the messiah schemers could include whoever controlled xyz conquered planet of act 1 to create a stronger link etc. very exciterd to see how he does edric.
5:10 is this series worth watching?
I am really puzzled at how the director is going to include and use Chani in Messiah given the changes he made to her character in part 2 and given her importance in Messiah.
he doesn't refuse to walk into the desert when he's blind because he's refusing ancient fremen customs? he explains that its because he may not have eyes but that doesn't mean he is blind, obviously because he can still see using his prescient vision rather than the vision that eyes allow. he's just using a different kind of vision
seems weird to say that he was refusing fremen customs when he lost his eyes and then after chani dies he decides suddenly to go by those customs again? its because when chani dies he loses his prescient visions therefore he is now truly blind and the fremen law now applies
If anyone can do it, it's Denis and Timmy. At the end of the second one we saw glimpses of his bad side and it was pretty convincing
6 Million Cookies 🍪
By the way, Paul is wrong to compare Gengis Khan's killcount to Hitler's, as he only counts the amount of people hitler likely killed industrially, not the amount of people killed in WW2 by germany.
mfer, there should have been a spoiler warning for the sequals to dune messiah as well. I just finished reading it and there was no mention of paul surviving anything. thanks bruv
If Villenueve wanted to do something crazy, he could do an incredibly intense sequence of muad’dibs jihad. I’m new to the franchise but my biggest takeaway from the books is that Paul’s Jihad had *serious* consequences across the universe. Something frightening and intense like a Jihad scene could really get the point across in a film adaptation.
F. Herbert wrote the fascinating & speculative “Dune” with ingenious settings like some tech limitations.
However, he also knew such limitations block civilizational development, ending the story as a tragedy.
Moreover, we all are now getting the ability like Paul’s genetic memory or prescience with the internet or AI.
Paul’s tears for the victims & Chani’s protest against propaganda will lead to a humane & hopeful adaptation.
Im not sure if you have watched A.O.T but if you have then you will know the tragic hero becoming a villain is something us fans are excited to see. If you haven't watched it then I hope you do, you can see how war and conflict never changes and how A.O.T and Dune both perfectly show leaders have to make the hardest choices for the better outcome even if it means killing 60 billion people. I think it would be a great video idea and to hear your opinions on it.
Forgive me, but if you didn’t pay attention to that scene of Paul and his legions literally wrecking their way into the emperor’s palace, then you wouldn’t understand just how easy this is going to be for Villeneuve.
“… Grandfather…
You die like an animal.”
Coldest fucking filmmaker ALIVE.
Reading through Messiah rn and the story is so interesting. The dialogue can be so beautiful. "The waters healed me of the jihad, and they were afraid of that." But the biggest issue I see is the book seems to be rooted around Paul and Chani's relationship. It's a problem because they seem to have split in the film continuity
My friend and I were talking about how Messiah is going to need to be more from the perspective of Chani or someone else, and divert her character more towards "I love Paul but he's being a bad guy am i right?" Something like that. It also needs this because of how internal the book is and how hard it will be to adapt it into a movie without the copious internal monologues.
I think denis has set it up but many people missed it - after watching dune my husband and I were discussing the film and I pointed out that I didn’t believe Paul’s orders to destroy the houses at the end of Dune was warranted- that a leader as great as he is meant to be would figure out a way to do this without total nuclear war on a galaxy scale. My husband was like “nah that’s the only way” and “worm riding was super cool” (I cleaned up the language). By the end Paul was well on his way to Hitler, and I was disgusted by him - I saw a monster in the making. But I do get that my reading is not the common one.
I think maybe at least half of the run time for DUNE Messiah is likely conflicts with the great houses & spacing guild that clearly has been put so little screen time in both DUNE & DUNE Part 2. We also have Bene Gesserit X factor that Denis could use as a plot device for the alt villainous faction who clearly try to assassinate Paul & his family. Remember, we had Lady Margot Fenring who clearly introduced & carry Harkonnen bloodline with her pregnancy. This could easily bring Harkonnen house back again for that ever approaching revenge. If people can enjoy a whole season of medieval family feud in GoT, than I am pretty sure they can enjoy such political machination storyline in a 3 hour movie, maybe sprinkled with 1 hour actions here & there.
The ultimate problem with Dune, is that Frank Herbert made his hero turned object lesson against the seductiveness of power a little too likeable and approachable. We are supposed to see Paul's creeping failure at dealing with the seductiveness of power as a warning, but instead , we LIKE the young pup Paul, and his slide into literally becoming an inhuman monster is hand-waved away by the reader because we like him.
Sometimes I wonder if Frank Herbert did that by design, to draw us fully into the headfookery that is not realizing that our charismatic underdog "Chosen One " has become a monster until it is too late.
He will do a good job. He will have to change the structure of the narrative quite a bit for sure. Most chapters of Messiah are just people talking in rooms. Great amazing rooms, super cinematic rooms....but still just rooms and people. More akin to a stage play than a movie. But this is also what will give him so much freedom to keep the core idea of a tragic anti hero that sees himself partly as a villain and partly as a martyr, a girl that is pushed to be a Goddess and the machinations around the Empire and his Emperor. The fact that is also a slimmer book will give him the opportunity to dig into the lore and expand the universe by showing stuff that is not in Messiah. Like the creation of the Gola could be an interesting visual bit. He will expand on roles that are not even in the book, like Jessica. He will show us the Jihad and the Quizarate. Anyhow, in Denis we trust.
I think the only way that the hiitler comparison is made in a denis film is either through irulan's writings or from channi.
I mean, Oppenheimer was a massive succes and well received film, and that was basically just alot of people talking for 3 hours.
It was just made in a way that made it super interesting.
That son turns into a fucking worm later