Interview with Battle Born Batteries CEO and COO - Lithium Batteries Technical discussion
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- Опубликовано: 29 авг 2018
- We got a chance to interview Battle Born Batteries CEO Dennis Phares and COO Sean Nichols about their products and dive into some of the technicals about their lithium battery chemistry, Battery management systems (BMS), and manufacturing processes.
Lithium battery technology is slowly making its way into everything and will probably soon be the primary type of battery everywhere. There are so many advantages to lithium ion batteries and the guys at Battleborn are helping to bring this technology to everyone.
Learn lots more here! - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium...
Check out Battle Born Batteries' website - bit.ly/BattleBornBattery
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Outstanding interview. I have 4 of these and one of the primary reasons I went with Battleborn is because of the battery management. Great to hear them discuss this in detail.
Great interview Tom! Really enjoyed the technical explanations of how these batteries work. I added a Battle Born bank to our own RVs solar system and we are thoroughly enjoying it.
Keep up the good work guys 👍🏻
Thanks for this awesome interview. We have 3 of the Battleborn 100Ah batteries for 9 months now and they have performed brilliantly for us. Love the plug and play aspect. The tech info was quite good and helpful. As usual a job well done with your videos.
Finally, I found a video with proper answers by real professionals. There are too many self-proclaimed solar experts on the net who have no proper education and keep repeating what they hear from other "experts". You just have to weed them out to get some real answers.
Thank you for the video!
Thank you for providing the video. It helped fill in some of my knowledge gaps. The way the Battle Born is provided as a self-contained replacement solution is a true game changer. I look forward to migrating to Battle Born as a foundation of my electrical system in 2019.
We have 2 of their 100ah, 12v bats in our class C and love them. We hope to add 1 more in the future to finish of our boondock options (incl our 600w solar on the roof.) Keep it up Battle Born! Long term, the cost is worth it.
Thanks...just installed 2 BB's in the RV.
BTW...they have great CS also.👍
Great video and discussion, thank you! We love selling Battle Born batteries!
Great interview Tom! Sean and Denis really know their stuff and the Battle Born products are well worth the investment. We have a 24v system in our motorhome and it works amazingly well.
Will Prowse gives you guys a GIANT thumbs UP and also says you are helpful to him...so thank you...he has been my "go to guy" when it comes to my solar/battery system questions.
Fantastic knowledge on the temperature issues.
Excellent video Tom. You asked the right questions and I learn a lot. Perfect timing too, I might add.
Thanks!
First light of the day love it Keep On Truckin
Great interview. Thanks!
This is great info and a good add on to your Tesla battery install!!
Really really good technical information for understanding all batteries thanks for putting this together question did you change your heating pads configuration. 👍👊😎
Very informative interview! Plus, love your hat. 😀
Great interview Tom
I have 4 of their batteries and one thing that didn’t come up is their customer service. I have called them a few times over the year and they pick the phone up and answer questions.
Guess you were luckier than I've been, I called multiple times a few months ago and got nothing but an answering machine and no return calls.
Great interview and great explanation of Battle Born Battery. Very helpful.
Glad it was helpful!
Good interview Tom thanks for sharing I learned a lot from it.
Great interview. Hope to change my 6 Trojan for BattleBorn, when it’s time to change them. Just hope the price continues to drop a little...
they had a deal at the van build for $895
there are some new technologies in the pipe but it could be several years until they reach a Wal-Mart shelf
Awesome information, great job.
You mention a battery heater specifically for the Battle Born Batteries. Where can you get one of those? Link?
So cool!
Thank you this is great information and I need this to leave RV Parks....was thinking to start with AGM but.....now I will reconsider without a doubt...wish I had an engineer background sometimes though...I chose science...😕
I just found this channel due to the frig conversion and am very excited about the content of the whole channel. As an owner of BB batteries and a chemical engineer, I have had some issues with BB and progressive about their inaccuracies about charging. the BEST charging algorithm, which nobody is designing to yet is to bulk charge to 14 ish volt and then to SHUT OFF, until the state of charge reduces to 20% or so and then repeat. There is no place in the LI chemistry world for an externally applied float, at any voltage.
End of rant. There is a great piece on the Compass Marine website on all things LI, if you havn't seen it. One of the only totally independent reviews I have seen.
Keep up the great work, I am in binge mode on your channel.
In an effort to sell these Drop In LI batteries, the mfgs are doing a disservice, and we are going to see some premature failures of the big buck batteries in the next several years. NBummer.
I 100% agree. I see too much "marketing" in too many sales materials that avoid some of the important limitations and Best Practices with LFP. A great BMS can help minimize some of the issues, but physics and chemistry still dictate what we need to do in terms of charging and usage and environment (temps etc) to prolong the battery life. I too foresee a whole bunch of very disappointed people who took the plunge without understanding some of the limitations and nuances to installations and usage, needed to achieve what the marketing people have promised, for their investment.
They talk like they can use any charger, even some with a higher impedance with a sloppy knee between I mode and E mode. With some chargers out there left over from the NiCad and NMH days, I wonder if they can internally regulate that into the profile needed for their batteries. I also would have liked to hear them discuss the cathode materials further. I am really glad it was an electrical engineer conducting the interview with intelligent interactions rather than some reporter asking a fixed set of questions whether they make sense after previous answers or not. Well done, Tom!
Hear, hear! Although I'm not an engineer myself, my father was an EE and I picked up some knowledge along the way, and nothing irritates me more than ignorant reporters saying stuff that is clearly wrong or nonsensical. My biggest pet peeve is when reporters or announcers talk about "amps per hour" of "watts per hour", etc. Arrrgh!
Forget batteries, where's my Mr. Fusion? Stale beer and banana peels will be the power of the future.
How often do the lithium battery's internal BMS fail? And , when they do how would you know?
I asked them that question and they seemed to think they should last the life of the battery 20,000 cycles. I pushed and asked about premature failures (because it has to happen) They said in the first generation of their batteries they had a few failures due to transients in alternator startup or large chargers. They have since fixed this and say they have not seen any failures yet. Most likely a failure of the BMS on their battery would just render it inoperable.
Hey Tom. Great job in this interview. I really enjoyed it and learned a ton. I do have a usability (and probably ignorant) question for you. I am familiar using a hydrometer to check the health of a batt by testing each cell regularly. This helps me proactively ensure I always have a healthy batt bank in the system. For a lithium, or even a maintenance free AGM battery, what is the best way to tell when the battery has failed or is about to fail? A lot of us newbies are running dual batteries from the RV dealership. And, a lot of you experience NOMADS are running 4, 5, 6 + batteries in the bank. If one of those batteries in the bank fails, what is easiest way to tell? Once a batt in the multi-batt bank fails, is the RV'er dead in the water with no power until they can get to a store and replace that weak link? I haven't found a video that discusses the eventual repair / replacement of these types of battery banks and appreciate your thoughts. Thanks
For lithium your check is making sure the cells are balanced (like doing an equalize on lead acid) If you have active BMS it does it for you. I just check every couple weeks (have not had to balance yet) . As for end of life you will just start seeing fewer amp hours output each night before reaching a lower voltage. If you were to have one battery fail in a multi battery pack your first indication would probably be just that, lower power output. If it were to short or something catastrophic it could take the whole bank down. Over time it may damage the other batteries by preventing a full charge or drawing them down, but it should not cause a failure immediately. If you are running lithium with BMS on each pack (like battleborn) then one failure should not affect anything else unless its in series. You would just see lower power output and you would need to check the voltage across each batt.
This was good. I liked hearing the Battle Born batteries are drop in replacements. Having the battery management system built in is nice.
Are the cells made in China?
The cells are made in China as most are, but they are specific for battleborn. Dennis personally spent a lot of time in China selecting materials, manufacturing sites and oversees quality. If I were to trust a Chinese cell it would be theirs.
So where do they get their cells?
does Battery Management Systems replace Charge Controllers like MMPT and PWM? do we need a charge controller if we have a BMS integrated in the batteries?
BMS does not replace Solar Charge controllers, it just makes sure those cannot go above or below set values. Solar controllers take the Voltage from the solar panels and make it into 12V nominal power. PWM controllers are best if using nominal 12V panels, (usually open circuit Voltages of these are anywhere from 17.5 Volts to 22 Volts or so), hooking up to a nominal 12V battery system. An MPPT charge controller can take a much larger voltage imput and reduce it efficiently to a lower volt system, for example, I wire my solar panels in a "24V" nominal system, (I get around 32 Volts coming into the controller, even on a semi-cloudy day), and get up to 14.5 Volts at my battery system. The BMS in lithium batteries manage the battery at each cell, making sure they are all balanced correctly, as well as not too high, nor too low a voltage.
Safety is important too
They talked about the safeguards on low temp protection and said there were upper limits, but did not get specific. Can you share any guidance. If they get too hot, will they totally shut down or not take a charge? What is that upper limit. My four BB 100AH are under our bed in our trailer along with the inverter. Things can get warm in there. I have been thinking of adding some forced cooling, but temps have not exceeded 105F in the summer (daytime)...also I had not turned on A/C at that time as it was just sitting in my driveway as I was doing some uprades.
This is something I too would like to learn more about and will have an oppertunity soon. The upper limit for LIFE charging is usually around 115 so I would think you are still good.
You should try to keep the cells down below about 85F for ultimate longevity. They start to degrade lifecycles when they see temps in the 90F-100F + range for periods of time.
I've always read that one of the situations to avoid for longest Li battery life is don't float charge. These are the first battery guys I've heard to talk about floating the battery at the full charge voltage at the completion of charge. Are they doing something special to prevent loss of life, or what do they spec for longevity? I come from a circuit design background where I was an FAE for Linear Technology (now Analog Devices). The LTC parts terminate charge (disconnect the battery from the source) at the end of CV mode to prevent battery aging. From what I understand, the EV guys never fully charge the batteries so they don't suffer from premature aging. I doubt if your Tesla pack ever saw 90%.
Correct I keep mine under 90%. They might be just doing the same internally but I think i remember asking them that and the answer was something like the BMS manages it. Might charge to to full then discharge before charging again. Can all be done internal to the battery as long as it has a constant Voltage applied, they just need to watch SOC and current flow.
Lithium batteries are great but one overlooked issue is heat. If you park your vehicle in the sun here in parts of California, Arizona, etc in the summer, you better find a way to keep the battery compartment cool because high temps (which often exceed 150 F) on hot days are very damaging to the batteries. A big selling point for these batteries is longevity, but Im not too sure how long these will last when stored in hot climates.
My question exactly, and also in a bay next to a front wheel drive engine?? They never mentioned that.. only cold weather..lol
I suppose you can install near the living environment. But what about when tithe RV is not in use?
What are the environmental impacts of the mining, transportation processing, etc? Where is the basic material sourced, how long might the supply reasonably last? TIA
With all your safety parameters on your tesla system, how many actual usable amp hours will your system deliver on your typical charge?
Can I buy stock in Battle Born? Really looking forward to what they have for us next. (built-in heating?, 200 and 300 form factors?)
i wold pretty much like that they had an external connection of somme kind that can be used to watch the single cell voltage and maybe graphs... they are not speaking about the balancing of the cells if is an active or passive type (important for small solar applications) but hey they give 10 year warranty!!!!
I have talked to them about that and hope to see it integrated in the future.
I’d like to know how they compare to the Tesla S battery.. capacity vs cost..
I just ran this (rough) calculation because I was planning on going with Battleborn before I came across Tom's Tesla battery videos. At current prices and ball parking a 600ah system the tesla battery setup ended up being 99ah more for about $1600 less.
A Math question I put to all involved , if the batt warranty is 10 years, and the density of storage is doubled in 3 years, Then what is the point of a 10 year warranty?
Seriously? What are you implying? That if there is something denser in 3 years then no one will care anymore that their current purchased battery lasts? .Because they will what? Throw them away and buy a denser battery in 3 years? That cost vs lifetime is not an issue?
How is Battleborn able to claim 3000=5000 cycle life and offer a 10 year warranty? As I understand it over 1000 cycle life of lithium fe chemestry requires the useable range of the battery needs to be around 70% of its total voltage capacity. So what top and bottom Voltages are the BMS set at?
Correct their rated 100AH capacity is the BMS setpoints, actual capacity is higher so they can get these numbers easily. We will hopefully be learning more about this all soon.
WHAT A GREAT COMPANY I THINK I ILL GO WITH THEM I HAVE CHOICE OF A SMALL COMPANY IN OREGON & THE GUY ACTAULLY CREATED THE CELL TYPE THESE GUYS USE ..INTERESTING HUH?
The LIiFePO weigh a lot more than something like the NCRB chemistry. The safety factor is huge in an RV. The BB batteries are $1000 per kWh, while auto EV packs are under $200, and around a third the weight.
Maybe if someone did a demonstration product with 4 kWh bank and a truck that would charge them in 90 minutes. I mean the alternator or dual alternators for the truck. But to run a 200A cable back to your battery compartment in a fiver? What gauge of wire? Can you produce an AC current into a charger, where the amperage is more reasonable? Maybe put the batteries with the truck? How do you leverage the lithium charge capabilities if you drop them into an AGM bay that is probably more limited in terms of C rate?
All the battery companies throw out a lot of numbers but you need a real system, whether solar, generator, and alternator, or whatever. What capabilities are they adding? Are they bending RV's to their products?
If I want to run electric climate control, I'll wait for an EV van, insulate it well, and integrate the vehicle battery system with the house stuff.
Lifepo is safe but can it really outmatch the far denser chemistries as the tech moves along? I look for cheap temporary solutions and I expect better tech in 2 year. Something like the Yeti (Costco) is interesting. I was reading an ebike review on Loloho and it would be nice to use the ebike battery packs. I've done it, but it isn't plug and play.
Right now? Too much bux.
Thanks for your comment, There are a lot of options out there but I still think there is a place for batteries like these for those that can afford it and have space and weight. Simplicity is huge and if these last as long as they say, then they should be cheaper than lead acids already over their expected life.
I know this is old.. but my house batteries are next to my starting battery, which is in my front engine bay compartment... Off to the side but my engine is front wheel drive and open to the air.. I am concerned by the engine area heat put off in S. Florida etc.. What heat range can the Battleborn's take? all I hear is about freezing.. lol. that will never happen to me unless the magnetic pole shift happens..
I just switched to lithium I'm running 800 watts of solar with zantrex 2000 Watt pure sine wave inverter and to one hundred amp hour battleborn batteries
Must be proud to have a product that so many people hate and love at once , how did you come to 10 year warranty, and are you insured for the big class action that might happen some day , i haven't bought but im really worried about the warranty
you can look at it that way or that they really trust their product.... hmm
If you are buying these batteries and you what add a battery will it work as good or should you buy all at the same time. Trying to not spend so much at one time
I would reach out to battleborn to ask but I would imagine since these have such a long life and the BMS manages voltage that you should be able to safely add batteries later!
When will you export to australia ?
Thats a good question, are they not available there?
Customer service is like we don't care we don't have to, strange that long customers don't matter for the future
Would be a good idea to follow up and ask how much power can be pulled from battery before damage will occur. My understanding with lithium is you don't go below an 80% discharge (like you mention). So if these guys are shipping out 125AH batteries and labeling them as 100AH batteries then you may be able to get 100AH out of them before damaging the battery. Seek to 16:55.
You need to go the the manufacturers website and study some graphs. Everything cannot be addressed in a 21 minute interview.
They indicated thatthe batteries will yield at least 105 ah as per their specified upper to lower voltage range. Could be they are leaving some capacity on the table with their "empty" voltage. capacity that might be the last 5-10% that we shoulnt use anyway for long life... that, with the extra 5 ah min in cell performance could allow us to use 90 ah while stiill keeping actual cycling at 85% say. preserving battery life.
They are out of stock Do you think they are having a problem within the company
They're so (too) expensive.
When I saw the title, I thought... Oh No, Tom has swapped out his Tesla Battery !!!!
I paid the ridiculous cost for two of their batteries. Stop fucking giving them away and lower the cost and I'll buy more!
Yeah well it's good and all lithium is awesome but $1,000 a battery No sorry only rich people can afford that you need to come up with batteries under $500 otherwise lead acid, AGM, gel, batteries are going to be the only choice for the poor man.
That is a sweeping statement that is simply untrue. This is the same statement that was applied to Gel batteries when they first became available. Choice is a good thing and right now, LiFePo4 batteries are pricey. That is no reason to stop designing better batteries. The cost will eventually drop, meanwhile there is nothing wrong with gel, AGM or even wet cells. IF you really want a couple of these Battleborns you need to adjust your priorities. ALSO: never forget you get twice the useable amperage from these batteries and they last a huge amount of cycles.
@@geraldhenrickson7472 by the time they get cheap enough to where I can afford them I'll be too old to even travel so I'll stick with what I can afford.
And anyway I would rather have two 6 volt batteries instead of one 12 volt battery. When is battleborn coming out with golf cart batteries?.
And by the way gel batteries are still too expensive
They have 6 volt according to their website I believe. Cost per usable amp hour is less with lithium over the life of the battery.
Great great interview. You should consider removing your hat when interviewing people inside a building.
Don Kisler I don’t think it will make any difference in the interview... you always tell people what to do?
Clearly it's an informal interview. He's also wearing shorts. I don't see a problem.