Electric Panel Full? Try This Simple Fix
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- Опубликовано: 14 янв 2023
- Electrical Panel out of space? Can't fit any more circuit breakers? Think again! How to safely add a new circuit to a FULL electric panel fast & FREE! Plus two others options to help you understand how you can expand your electric system at home.
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Electric work is not for everyone, this is for educational purposes and does NOT address every situation. Use your own judgement and consult a licensed electrician before starting any work.
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❤Guys, a few of your are going crazy so please read this and don't live with wrong info. First, please watch the whole video as I am showing 3 options when you run out of circuit space. Also there are misconceptions about what is legal, code and/or a good idea. First is what is the national electric code? It's not a law or even a set of rules. It's a published set of guidelines written by the NFPA and quite sensible which is why most, but not all states and counties accept the national electric code as their "rulebook" and locally have the power to not allow or disallow work or portions of it. This is why enforcement varies across the US. Two wires into a breaker is not against the nec code, if the breaker mfg allows it. Two wires pigtailed into 1 breaker is also allowed under the nec, or more correctly it is not prohibited and if a breaker only allows 1 wire, this is the only compliant way to do it if a breaker only is rated for a single wire. 👍 As stated in the video this is only for minor small, circuits, i.e. doorbells, single outlet to be combined to then allow one real breaker opening for the new circuit need. As shown, tandems are a better choice, and so on to the sub-panel. I may do a follow up on this since my videos will never encourage illegal or wrong behavior, it's to understand options and you decide what you want to do. A real world example is a 85 year old woman needed a stair lift in her home (needed dedicated circuit), she had no breakers left (45 year old panel). Tandems were not available, the electrician combined a doorbell and single outdoor light circuit into one with a pigtail to free up one standard circuit breaker to be used for the lift. This was code compliant and fit the situation. *Always use your own judgement, hire an electrician, the goal of the video is to help you understand there are a few ways to do things*
This is one of my biggest issues with American electrical inspectors... they will 'call out' an 'illegal' thing... no, it's not to code, not illegal, the cops are not gonna arrest you for a double tap on a breaker ;)
I don't agree with your interpretation of the NEC. It is a code and by definition is a set of rules. In fact it is a prescriptive set of rules versus performance based rules. Note the word "shall" is used throughout the code. NFPA also publishes recommended practices which are more inline with your interpretation. Recommended practices use the word "should" in their books. I can't speak for New England but here in the Midwest the NEC is adopted at the state and local levels. I have seen municipalities mandate stricter guidelines in their building codes but I have never seen a municipality undercut the NEC. Every industrial company I have worked follows the NEC because that is what their underwriters expect. It is difficult to defend oneself in court after an accident should you not follow a nationally recognized widely adopted standard. Juries eat that stuff up.
On a different topic, you should emphasis safety and follow the most basic guidelines. Even in a residential panel the minimum guidelines include safety glasses, insulated tools, verification that the overcurrent device functioned properly and the circuit is dead, and finally insulated gloves when moving or handling live conductors. I don't believe you did any of these. Turn off the main and verify no voltage and you can chuck the PPE, but not working live.
@@williamrucki9293 All good points the main power was turned off, which was indicated at 1:59
@@SilverCymbal Sorry, I watched the video on my phone and I often miss text that flashes across the screen. I should have watched on my computer.
I agree that it’s not a safety concern. Unfortunately here in Florida home insurance inspectors won’t allow it. Silly.
Retired electrician here. If you look at the decal on the door of your panel or manual you should see a diagram. That diagram denotes where it's permissible to install tandem breakers. Unless it's a GE panel with mini breakers those tandems are usually only allowed to be installed in the bottom spaces. The diagram will also tell you the maximum amount of poles or tandems that you can have. Inspectors will take issue if they see tandems installed in the wrong spaces. For example a square D 42 space panel can have 52 circuits so you are allowed to install 10 tandem breakers at the bottom 10 spaces. Another pro tip is that you can purchase additional ground and neutral buses and install them, so you have more places to land your wires. Another option is to replace an existing panel with a larger one should you need more room.
Don't you know?! This is RUclips! You don't have to ask people what you did wrong... They will tell you... Loudly... Unprompted. Lol 😀
I just discovered these Wago electrical connections, bought a few boxes of them. And installed a new Siemens sub panel out in the garage, as my panel is full too... Going to need to purchase a couple of those breakers too... Thanks for the video!
Stopped the video immediately after you mentioned double-tapping the breaker and went to post a comment about using a Tandem breaker. . . I feel foolish now as you explained that moments later in the video. Great video!🙂
Yes and though many are shocked to know that the double tap is allowed, as mentioned its ok for 1 or two needs but tandems are easier and the subpanel is good for long term needs as shown.
Double tapping is allowed if specified on the breaker, there will be 2 indents for wires if allowed.
I was about to throw hands at my TV too. Tandem breakers! 🥰
Thanks for the informative video. That'll definitely help me find more space in my Circuit Breaker.
SC, thanks for this video: I'm moving into an older house, and these ideas are very timely.
It would have been nice if there were a short mention about balancing the total loads on the two hot phases. In the video near the end with the new subpanel, all the new circuit breakers are on the left; however, I am used to see them being installed top to bottom -- certainly OK depending on how the panel divides out its slots for the two phases.
How about an informative video on converting three daisy-chained fuse boxes (no ground wires!) to a circuit breaker panel? This would not be a DIY project for most people, but the info would help us to understand the issues involved.
Great explanation. Simple and easy to understand voice. Thank you Sir for your efforts to explain us this topic!
Thanks for the knowledge
I'm not a licensed electrician, but I've done enough electrical work, and worked with enough inspectors to think this is sketchy as hell. Will it work? Of course, especially if you're combining LED lighting circuits. Will it pass inspection? Ask your local regulatory organization to be sure. Anyway, thought provoking and probably controversial topic! Thanks! Dave J
Am inspector will not want to see more than 1 or 2 double taps or tandems and of course they always have the last say on any decisions and do not have the follow electric code if they choose not to.
@@SilverCymbal Electrician here, Unless you know the calculation you didn't talk about a homeowner should never do this.
@@SilverCymbal That is so true. I've walked into our county code office with code book in hand to complain about something an inspector "failed" and although I was technically correct the manager wouldn't budge, even though he had nothing to back it up. Just the way it is if they want to be more conservative. Once again, thanks for the great videos, I hope NH is treating you well. My cousin lives at the foot of Monadnock, so you're probably "neighbors" relatively speaking.
I have a bunch like this in my house. Like that when I got it and passed inspection.
@@ChunkyMonkaayyy According to the National Electric Code (NEC) the electrician installing the panel/breakers needs to do the capacity calculation for each circuit. Not sure what inspectors are suppose to do as it's going to change depending on the jurisdiction.
I always make sure the panel is balanced when running double/tandem breakers
fantastic man thank you for sharing.
My suggestion (applicable to both the US and UK and maybe other countries too) is if your property is large in floor area, install one main panel with say 50-60A (US) or 50/63A (EU) breakers feeding sub panels close to the loads , the larger wire is expensive but not compared to long home runs of thinner cable, and it helps with voltage drop. And also for work in future, it's not so far to go to isolate a circuit.
And be kind to the next person. Label the outlet/switch with the panel and breaker number. For residential, a sharpie label on the inside of the outlet coverplate could be all the clue the next person needs. It's frequently done in the UK on commercial, but should be common even on residential, it saves inconvenience to the customer. The number of times as a sparky, we have to randomly turn off breakers to find out which one is supplying that accessory is staggering. And yes i know circuit breaker finders exist, but theyre not perfect
That cable management in the backgroubd tho 😍
The guy who wired this place is still alive but in his late 70s someplace in Florida. I am not sure many residential electricians would both with that much care. It used to be on both sides but the 9 doubled up circuits got moved to the new subpanel. That was definitely hot his work, he just did the classy original stuff. Hard to believe it 35 years old.
Good to know! Thanks!’
Great info! Surprisingly most haven't heard of WAYGO.
When lighting in the home was incandescent bulbs, I would expect a multi-bulb fixture to be hundreds or even a thousand watts. So this led to many 15A circuits feeding lighting through the house. It seems that LED bulbs will drastically reduce the load and make it easy to combine a couple circuits into one. So would you recommend making LED bulb conversion the first project and then combining circuits after that?
I would do some simple math first before buying anything. It is easy to figure out the wattage/volts to amps, I would do this first. I am facing a full panel right now, and that is exactly what I am doing. I have already rewired the kitchen with 20 amp circuits, not touching those, along with the HVAC and dryer. Everything else in the house is fair game at this point. And take into consideration, you rarely if ever have every single light in your house on, along with appliances, unless you have six kids. In my house, it is just two of us, and there is rarely only a few items running at given time, and none of those are going to trip a 15 amp breaker. A little commonsense and math will answer your question.
The LED lights, if you can tolerate them, they are a good solution, especially if you have any old school flourescent lighting in the house. I have those, or did in the kitchen, 14 tubes to be exact. When those were turned on, you could watch the meter spin outside. These were installed in the 1960's. I pulled all of the ballasts out of the ceiling and installed LED flourecent bulbs I picked up at Home Depot. Much brighter and very little if any actual draw on the system. Money well spent. They have been installed for roughly two years and not one issue.
I did LED a decade ago
Using the Wago as your video showed, can you apply the same method if you need a neutral terminal? My subpanel has space for one more single pole breaker, but no terminal for the neutral. I do not want to double lug a neutral. Thanks for your great, informative video.
Never thought of pigtailing always used the tandems. Thanks. Learned something new today
Tandems are always an easy bet and take out the figuring out part. A little known fact is that about 99% of every doorbell transformer is double tapped to a breaker and sadly most are not rated for 2 wires. If they pig tailed as shown they would be. I would never put two wires on a breaker not designed for it and always pigtail if needed.
Tandems need to be listed for use in the panel. Check the door of the panel and it will indicate if the tandems are allowed . Inspectors will check for the listing.
@@SilverCymbal I’ve spent the last 45 min seeing where I can free up space now hahahaha.
@@gary29585 ...I see that diagram on my GE panel...and am curious. Follow me on this example question. For example....on the right side leg as we move down, and look at schematic for right-side breaker location #22 (and #24 below that), indicate power from leg "A" ( #22) and then leg "B" ( #24)...indicated by the "dot" power pick-up that seems to alternate between A and B as we continue down. . However, as we continue down the panel...... breaker location #26 on the right side seems to have notation allowing a tandem breaker...as do the remaining numbers below. Question---> breaker location #26 says "A/B"....but the actual schematic "dot" shows power picked up from leg "A"....and the similar location below ( #28, also showing tandem capability), shows "dot" power pick up from leg "B". So....how are these locations actually different from any other?....even though the schematic shows "A/B" capability on these lower locations....and not above? Does that make sense? The power pick-up "Dot" alternates left-right between legs A and B as before, it seems, for the "full" width of the breaker slot.
I always use tandem breakers whenever there's no space left for another breaker instead of pigtailing two circuits on one breaker
The next question is about grounds and neutrals…
If you can double a hot to a circuit breaker with a pigtail or Waygo can you double a neutral or ground with a pigtail to a single spot on the neutral bar?
Now that is a very interesting question. You are never allowed under code to have two neutrals under a single screw in the main panel but pigtailing them would likely still not be allowed. Since my understanding is that the single screw for neutrals relates to interrupting a circuit during maintenace, etc. Which would still happen even with a pigtail, so my guess there is no but others may have more to add. Great question though!
@@SilverCymbal my thinking is that they are all on the same bus, so what would the difference be?
Using a pigtail on a grounded conductor can literally double the current of the pigtail. Two 15 amps grounded conductors pigtailed is 30A.
Neutrals can never ever be double tapped these days. Almost every neutral bar is rated for only one neutral wire per screw, so putting more than one would lead to loose/improper connections and excess current flow, both of which cause overheating. There are so many videos/pictures of this. That's why more recent revisions of the NEC would prohibit double tapping neutrals. Pigtailing would only solve the improper connection issue. It won't address the main issue, which is excess current flow.
When it comes to grounds, yes they can be pigtailed because grounds are always allowed to be double tapped. In my panel, I see two 14 awg or two 12 awg grounds combined into one wire using a crimp sleeve before landing on the neutral bar. So they can definitely be pigtailed instead of crimped.
Good video and thanks for stressing the breaker must be designed/rated for two wires. It is absolutely critical the breaker have this design rating, if not anyone attempting this on a breaker not designed for this purpose could be creating a serious issue for their home. With two wires connected to an improper breaker, it could overheat if those two wires are not seated properly, and secured with sufficient contact force from the breaker terminal. Loose electrical connections over an extended period will overheat and may eventually arc or worse start a fire. Even if the breaker is designed to allow for 2 conductors, it is important those 2 wires be the same gauge and type. Manufacturers go to great lengths to test and design electrical panels for their intended purpose, and this is also why qualified electricians are valuable professionals to insure a safe installation if a homeowner has any doubts doing this themselves.
One other quick point, the majority of standard circuit breakers have a full load current rating (rating stamped on breaker i.e.: 20A) and continuous load rating of 80% for a maximum of 3 hours per the NEC. Manufacturers test to UL standards (in the U.S.) and the 100% rating is achieved under open air conditions (no enclosure) where the ambient temperature is held to 40 degree C (104 F). This is done for various reasons, breakers can be utilized in a variety enclosure sizes, density of breakers can vary, etc.. The enclosure size will alter ambient temperature. NEC also sizes the cables appropriate to this. So that 20A breaker actually has a continuous load rating of 16A when mounted in an enclosure. Just one other thing to keep in mind if adding another circuit to an existing breaker, even if that breaker is designed for this.
Thank you, people have no idea that so much for the NEC is pushed back to the product manufacturer. It's always been a pet peeve when I see the doorbell shoved under a screw not rated for 2 breakers. It the non-doorbell circuit I get worried for.
@@SilverCymbalAgree completely, once again nice work your videos, I know it takes real effort to produce this level of quality.
Good evening I’ve got a question, I’ve disconnected 3-14/2 wires to replace a light fixture! Without labeling them! What there are, a source that feeds two more loads, what being managed by are two switches/ some outlets and bunch of pot lights!! So far I’ve been able to reconnect one of the switches that control pots and all outlets, what I’m missing is a light and switch that energizes the closest! So again at the moment I’ve a 14/2 hanging! Any advice? Thanks
Thank you
Another option to consider. If your breakers are 1" wide (example GE, CH), you could replace the 1" wide breaker with two SlimLine breakers. Yeah the two slimline breakers will fit in the same space as one wide single pole breaker.
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It's amazing how many circuits North America has... here in the UK, an average house even now, may have a 12 way panel, upstairs power, downstairs power, kitchen power, downstairs lights, upstairs lights, garage, shed, hot tub (if rich), car charger (if richer) and a few spares... Of course using 32A 240v circuits helps a lot with this.
And for anyone complaining about the 'double tap' on the breaker, it's fine, Square D QO breakers are (from memory) UL listed for it..... Odd fact SC, we don't have the double tap rule, all breakers are rated for as many conductors as will fit physically. One of the most extreme examples is split concentric cable, where the live conductor is surrounded by neutrals/grounds... the neutrals are individually insulated strands, and there may be 10 or so shoved in the same breaker. It's no different than using stranded cable in a breaker (which ours are rated for)
I appreciate this and love to hear what you guys are doing over there. The US staying with the 120v design really limited a lot of what we can do here. Now we are stuck with it forever!
@@SilverCymbal to be fair i think it was a good call, as your transformers tend to be local to the residence. Ours are sometimes a couple of streets away so the 240/415v 3 phase system helps with voltage drop. I worked stateside for 5 years (although on commercial, mostly 120/208 3ph, with some 277/480 for fun LOL) so am familiar with both systems, both are fit for purpose and well suited for their respective environments
Tandom breakers are basically obsolete at this point. If you're modifying a circuit like this (not just replacing like for like), you almost certainly bring those circuits into modern code reqs, which means AFCI and/or GFCI breaker, which aren't available in tandems. It also means 50$+ a breaker.
$50?!!!
…try $90-$120. (Seimens)
We’re headed into uncharted territory with pricing on materials and supplies quadrupling the costs we had two years ago.
But really who's to say when those were actually installed, if you know what I mean..
I just purchased five tandem breakers, $43 each... Siemans, universal QT. And I have done the calculations...
Siemens makes CAFCI tandem breakers.
Excellent topic mentioning the "splice" within the enclosure, which is "legal" or "allowed" or "not prohibited" per the NEC aka NFPA70. Thanks
You are so right about the tandem breaker. I work in the rv industry and they are the worst at loading a circuit panel full with them
I use them in my RV and no issues ones a 30 20 others are 15 15 each and one 15 single breaker no issues cause I know what I can and can't run at the same time
It's not about the panel getting full, though that does become cumbersome, it's about overloading the service going into the panel. The more power drawn to service circuits the more the service has to bear that load. And the more load that is added the more heat is generated. The more heat generated the more likely insulation failure will happen which can lead to an electrical fire. So tandems aren't the issue, it's the people who think they know what they are doing.
My AC and heat are on the same 30amp circuits. Just bought a home, been doing quite a bit of work(really sleuthing.. damn old and sloppy wiring!). Inspector eluded on this saying “you won’t be running the electric baseboard heat AND ACs at the same time, so it only pulls from the circuit when one or the other is on”. Obviously don’t want to run both at the same time but there’s a real-world example of how it’s used. Also, my home is a 70’s built.
Yes, I would definitely agree with what you are saying. Today that would not be allowed as loads are calculated and generally large things like AC, heat, dryer will always be on their own just to avoid any issues. WHat happened in this house, they were using it as a summer house. And from what I can tell every time they needed a new circuit, they just kept double tapping until there were 9 in total. Way too much, so my new subpanel had to already handle the doubletaps but it gives breathing room for future stuff.
Although Square D Hom(line) breakers have two slots to connect conductors to, NEC and most if not all local municipalities fail inspection if doubletapped and also for-sale inspections will note it needing to be corrected by a “licensed electrician” once observed. If never selling the place, you can do whatever you want.
As my inspector here said, you should note that you have a lot of double tapped breakers (rated for 2 wires) and while it does meet code we don't like to see more than 1 or 2 as it's not the best practice. Nothing in this video is advising you to do this for your whole panel, along with the other 2 options which can be used.
What if you have three wire circuit ( two hots & one commend ) shearing one commend wire & the commend could be over loaded. The commend should only carry the difference between the two circuits, but if the brakers are side by side shearing one commend they would be overloaded. Please respond.
What ya think bout conductivity grease on breaker wire terminals?
I have a GE Panel w/ all GE breakers and want to install a 50 A double pole breaker for a portable backup generator and need room at the top left leg. There are (5) 15 A breakers located at the bottom of this leg that are labeled "lights". How many of these do i need to combine and remove in order to make room and how do i go about moving the entire leg of breakers down some to finally make room for this 50a breaker?
"Only use one or two tandem breakers" - LOL! Someone should have told this to the previous owner of my house. The house has 100 amp service and a small panel and the entire thing is packed full of tandems!
I hear you, many houses are like that. Square D redesigned there and their panels so they will only allow 6-8 I believe on a 40 circuit panel, they have a special cut in the slot for them to limit them.
@@SilverCymbal Not in the Canadian version. We can put tons of tandems.
I would never combine circuits on one breaker I would use a tandem breaker two in one basically
What about using a wago and pigtail for the neutral and ground wires when using tandem breakers?
Do I need to turn, the main power off. Going into the panel. First? Or just turn off each individual breaker. Before removing.
for 10 amps that Wago is very very likely fine. they do raise resistance. i've also found out the ire insertion needs to be PERFECT. Also the wago can do things wire nuts can NOT like combing 5 wires.
I love these Wago clips, using them right now in a project consisting of 12AWG stranded wire. Beats the heck out of trying to secure those to romex with wire nuts.
You can combine 5 or more wires using the right wire nut. I've done that at least 4 or 5 times when replacing/upgrading switch boxes. Is it easy? Absolutely not! Is it possible? Of course it is!
Also, WAGOs can easily handle more than 10 A. Although there is less contact area than wire nuts, leading to higher resistance and heat, it's still well below its maximum temperature rating.
I've combined 11 wires under one wire nut. Got the appropriate size wire nut that would allow that to happen. To use Wagos in that way you would need 4 Wagos compared to one wire nut. The videos you watch concerning wire nuts they only show the small ones as if those are the only sizes on the market.
@@TheForgottenMan270 Damn, how the hell did you end up with that many wires inside a box?
Also, three 5-conductor WAGOs would work for splicing 11 wires. Another WAGO would only be required if it was 12. There are 8-conductor lever nuts out there, so a pair of those can splice up to 14 wires. Either way, a large wire nut would take up less space than multiple lever nuts.
@@TheForgottenMan270 fuck that, I'd rather just get a buss bar at that point. But I'm the sort to rebuild the whole damn place of need be, I could see someone being forced to 13 wires, one wire nut, out in the field
can you put two neutrals in a wago then to the bar
Excellent information. Suggest adding a comment not to ever double tap (two or more wires) neutral (white) grounded wire to the same neutral bus bar tap. Each hole in the neutral bus bar should contain only one white wire. A fire hazard. The NFPA distinguishes between the green grounding wire and the white neutral grounded wire...and many folks erroneously interchange the word ground wire for both the green and white wires. Be careful...safety first. Green grounding wire bus bar can be double tapped.
I have a square d homeline box. I have learned it's a 30/60 panel. I have three openings left with plans to fill them. It has a maximum capacity of 60 circuits. How many tandem breakers can I safely run?
Check the label on your panel
Many home inspectors would flag double wires in one breaker as an issue even if the breaker is rated for two wires. I also think that many local codes are against this. It would be safer to use a tandem.
Yes I agree, I used an inspector and as he described it to me, its ok and they don't get too worried for 1 or two circuits but this house had 9 of them and I am glad to have moved them off to the subpanel. More work to do but it's coming along.
I had a similar issue, I had a old 1971 100 Amp panel jammed packed with tandems and overloaded curcits. I ended up paying someone to upgrade me to a 200 Amp larger panel. Then I broke down the several overloaded curcits by adding more breakers and running and fishing new wires to overloaded rooms that shared too many outlets/lights. Since my overloaded breakers were all daisy chained outlet and fixtures, I just had to break the chain in a convenient location and run a new breaker/romex to them.
Can a second 42 space panel be connected to the existing 42 space panel an both be protected by the existing 200 amp breaker? If so, how? Thanks.
Yes you can. The panel installed next to my existing one is exactly that. If you looo up be. Salatrok on RUclips he did a wonderful video on installing a sub panel
There are rules on how many outlets or devices you can have on a breaker where I live. You could accidentally double the count by combining onto one breaker. Be careful
its 12 plugs/lights for a single 15amp circuit. Its 85% which is the max you can have on a single 15amp breaker for safety reasons in most places. So it isn't good practice to doing what said in this video unless you test with a multimeter afterwards making sure the breaker isn't overloaded from what the manufacturer recommends or your local electrical code
Agreed I did say in the video to use a doorbell circuit or a single outlet circuit or similar circuit.
The rules where I live are you only have to divid the house into two circuits.
With LED lights, whatever the rule is for number of lights you can have is probably way under what is reasonable nowadays.
@@LowJSamuel While that may be true if using LED the issue is if someone else moves into the house there is nothing stopping them from using incandescent bulbs.
I’m just here for the popcorn
When you remove a wire from an adjacent breaker and combine it you've just changed the phase of that second breaker. If it had a common neutral to a phased circuit between those two Breakers you've just overloaded the neutral
Yes!
This is not a good idea unless you know what you’re doing and the draw of the devices on each one. Breakers don’t just trip at 15 amps there is a curve that they operate on. It’s possible that you could draw much more than 15 amps between both circuits and the breaker not trip leading to fire hazards.
Yes I think I mentioned 3 times this would only be helpful on light circuit such as a door bell, single outlet and light duty circuits. Tandems as discussed in the video are a more straightforward solution,
Whats the deal with the breakers that don't have SQD brand markings on them? Are those breakers safe / counterfeit? etc
There are many different brands of breakers/boxes. They are not compatible with each other. For instance, I have pushmatic in my current house. I am not a fan because they are not as easy to see if tripped, at least compared with Square D. They are still safe.
Where I live, you can only have so many things on one circuit. So make she you follow your local electrical codes.
I'd go for the ghettofabulous solution, that being; using tons of tandem breakers and cutting holes in the breaker panel to add PC case fans for airflow to prevent overheating.
That is the funniest term I have never heard before, that made me laugh!
So what happens when my breaker box is the opposite? 9-10 circuits for the whole house and have a bunch open? Lol
Very true, many houses may have too many items on too few circuits but if you are not tripping them you should be ok with the layout.
I prefer to pull the breaker out then remove the black wire otherwise you hands are in proximity to adjacent breakers that are hot.
When u purchase those additional breakers to parallel heat loads make sure to purchase a fire extinguisher and set it next to the load center
So youre telling me that if i get the tandem breakers i can make space for my 100 amp breaker to run my subpane?
Why risk it , when you can get tandem breaker .
2 circuits on a single breaker is illegal in most states....also if you have a fire and it is found your homeowners insurance will likely deny your claim.
Just rip,it out and put in a new large one easy
Why not use double breaker?
5:00 - Never mind. LOL
JESUS! if i ever build out or redo, i'll just get big ass tall boi breaker panel with like 80 circuits!
Good idea, it bothers me that contractors will go to all the trouble of adding a subpanel with 8 circuits. Such a waste. Better to have some spare slots.
I'd like to see an electrician explain load balancing and its importance here.
Buy a tandem breaker instead if your panel supports it.
Yes, always a good idea. Hopefully you watched that part of the video also.
there is a thing called space saver breaker, which gets manufactured two conductors into a single breaker with 2 individual poles
I'm a big fan of your channel and a subscriber but I'm also a Local 134 IBEW electrician. The National Electrical Code (NEC) doesn't have a specific code that states a double-tapped circuit breaker is illegal. But Code 110.3(B) says, “Equipment that is listed, labeled, or both shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.” you're sharing a fix that is hazardous an unsafe
Thanks and if you watched the entire video you are agreeing with me. I said some breakers like Square D QO are rated for 2 wires and can take them directly. If they are not a single wire must be used, hence the splice to run two circuit which is allowed.
In Chicago and most surrounding suburbs I know they don't allow tandem breakers at all, breakers have to be full sized. I did see an inspector once allow two tandems in a small panel, but only for 15 amp lighting circuits.
why only 1 wire is going to the breaker? its not closing the circuit. hot wire? wires arent disinged to go hot
Nice ideas. Would like you to show how you added the neutral & grounding to the sub panel too.
you dont need to move those
The prior owner of my first house did that. When I went to sell it, the inspector accused me of “double lugging” and failed the inspection.
Although I could’ve corrected it myself, I was required to hire an electrician to correct it and an electrical inspector had to check his work prior to the city inspector’s return visit.
Interesting, you are never allowed to have neutrals share a single screw, but you may have two wires share a breaker designed for two wires and the pigtail is commonly done to add a circuit or two. Tandems as shown are the best option before changing out a panel. I will be interested to see other thoughts on the video as well.
@@SilverCymbal
I think this particular inspector had it out for me before he even opened the panel. It was wired in a spider web fashion and many rooms were wired together in the old-fashioned rag wiring.
I had motion detectors inside before they were code-compliant and may or may not have passed the double lugging issue if he wasn’t already peeved about everything else!
OHHHHHH
I thought you are supposed to be using AFCI breakers nowadays
If I ever place 2 wires on 1 circuit breaker, I deserve what comes next! 1 breaker = 1 wire/circuit. Period! Tandem breakers are acceptable but only where the manufacturer states AND where code allows. ONLY! There’s reasons these codes exist. To protect the public.
That being said: I do like this channel. Lots of advise that I have used and work.
YOU CAN USE TANDEM BREAKERS
I'd wait and buy a dual 15/15 and sleep better.
To be honest, for people who are qualified to work on breakers, this is not new info, but if this is new info for someone, then that person is definitely not qualified to work on a breaker...
Oh gaud!
You didn't touch on the biggest issue. You look at the panels total amperage rating and count what your using before doing anything.
Thanks - electrifying....(Dad joke #1 today)
You my friend are invaluable. An asset to RUclips.
My solution is an extension cord
Master Electrician and inspector here. This video pushes the code and will violate many articles most likely. Most areas in a home have specific requirements for a dedicated circuit, and randomly mixing them as shown is very risky.
I was hoping someone in the comments would mention this, especially with MWBC phasing. (Overloading the neutral when it's a shared neutral for non fellow electricians). If you don't understand this you will likely be causing a dangerous situation in the right circumstances. For god sakes just call one of us. A service call is a lot cheaper than a funeral. UGH!
The thumbnail has a 30 amp breaker next to a wago that has a max wire size of 12awg.
That is all.
In some states (Texas is one) it's not in code to make any wire connections inside the breaker panel.
It's interesting that you say that as I had always heard that until about 10 years ago where an inspector shared that its always been a myth. The confusion is that you can't use the panel as a pass through for a circuit that isn't connected within the panel, so you can't just use it as a junction box. However connectors and splices are allowed and common. Texas may not be adopting the nec or following which is there choice but that has always been a discussed topic.
Chicago electrician here, DON"T DO THIS!!!
If you're a home owner don't do this. This only works if you can calculate the load of both circuits to equal to or less than 80% of the breakers headroom. That's the only way a professional would do this; if the breaker taking a load that was at or under 80% of it's capacity. If you don't know how or why you'd need to do this calculation than you shouldn't be doing this at all.
The only acceptable solution in this video that a non-electrician should be doing is the tandem breaker.
Not to mention moving a circuit to an opposite phase on a mcbc causes a whole host of other issues. Chicago suburban sparky here. Pay attention to my brother electrician aaveloone.
Yikes SC, I realize that you have solar and dual back-up capabilities ...but man, that is one complicated and chock full electrical service. A packed main panel, a packed sub-panel and second sub....all that for a single family.
Yes, for this setup an additional sub-panel was needed. Keep in mind this house was built 30+ years ago too, long before smart stuff and internet. I have no idea why they wanted so much separation with circuits. It's still just a 200amp service.
these breakers dont look correctly for me
Can you use waygo the ground and neutral too
I have a healthy respect for electricity...fear. I'll leave something like that for the license pro.
Thats never a bad idea
Just make sure you get one who really knows their stuff. My job is to fix and correct mistakes made by people who’ve been licensed for years, some even have their master’s license, and I’ve seen some sloppy and outright dangerous work.
I tend to agree…and highly respect expertise,however the permit requirements and the sheer inflated costs are prohibitive - leading homeowners and “handymen” (me) to attempt electrical work and “push the envelope “
I don’t think that wago is rated for 30amps or #10
people who don't belong in panel's stay put of them
What did they do in your house is every outlet on its own circuit breaker
The original builder of this place loved circuits, must have been a pet peeve or something. I only wish they put 3 panels side by side, double tapping is fine for a few per panel but this thing was insane.
please verify with a meter with what youre working on is dead!
Always a smart idea
@@SilverCymbal Thanks for the content you provide! :D
👍👍👍👍👍🍀🇳🇱
Uhm, right now I am looking at a 20 amp tandem breaker at Home Depot for $16.00. Why are they costing you $70? What am I missing
Square D makes 2 kids of tandems, The ones that fit their new 2016 and up panels, those are cheap becuase they only fit the new panels. The panels prior to this have a different mount, those are $60 and up. No idea why they did this but check your breakers and part numbers before ordering
@@SilverCymbal, good point, I didn't know!
Double tap is a no no … Splicing wires should be done outside the panel in a junction box , due to specifications on box fill .
2-4000$ for a sub panel.....????
Man are you getting screwed
Just upgrade your service to a 400 amp I go behind homeowners like you often. Folks, make sure that money you saved doing this goes in a jar for when you burn your house down.
Those breakers must be trippin' bro
Sounds like that could be a boston song.....breakahs be trippin
DON'T MAKE SPLICES INSIDE YOUR PANEL
Hmmm, now if you are an electrician you are fully aware approved pressure connectors are absolutely allowed in your panel and common. Every manual transfer switch in the world uses these *within* a panel. So let's not go crazy here
Sure there are ways to do it safely but the homeowner who doesn't know the calculation shouldn't be given this option at all along with double tapping a single breaker.
Not crazy, just basic electrical safety that you don't seem to know about.
You don't know about the capacity calculation. It's okay to not know things, but this "because I said so" attitude is a real bad look.
My insurance company will not accept pigtailing circuit breakers
It is completely prohibited and very dangerous to work on a live electrical panel.
Also, it is prohibited to make connections in an electrical panel as you did, except, and only except, when replacing an electrical panel.
There is also another problem in your electrical panel. I see a circuit breaker of 100
amps at position 24-26. This circuit breaker should have been installed as close as possible to the main circuit breaker.
This is a bad idea. Use the tandem, you have some in the panel. A QOT1515 is the same price as 2x QO115.
Tadems are always a good choice, but the price is accurate. Square D had to stop people endlessly using tandems. They changed the design and all new panels will only accept 4 or 8 max due to a special pin lock they have so they won't fit ina regular slot. The universal one that they offered for decades is now $75 and harder and harder to find. KInd of a strange move on their part but I guess I understand why.
@@SilverCymbal if your paying $75 for the part number I referenced for the job you showed, you are being ripped off. It's less than $40 Canadian at Home Depot, and in good supply. Quads will be close to $75. The casing on the tandems are the same as a single pole, nothing stops you from putting more than 4 in a panel. Might not be recommended, but it's technically possible.
@@seandoyle3918 No sorry you aren't understanding. They sell two versions of the tandem breaker, the "modern" one and thats $25-30 and the "classic: version which is $70 and up. Most people who need these don't have new panels, but older ones so they must have the classic version. Most people are competely unaware the new version only fits new panels. They were very clever how they did this.
@@seandoyle3918 Here is the old one: cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0246/2724/9232/products/qo2020-3_400x.jpg?v=1585662620 look closely at the pins
@@seandoyle3918 Here is the new one, that hook is how they limit how many will fit: cdn-moce.doitbest.com/Data/ItemImage-528236-r9539zfx4g8ms6g499m745.jpg?AutoCrop=1&CropHeight=1440&CropWidth=1440&Height=1440&Padding=1&Quality=50&Resize=Auto&Revision=RSQV&Timestamp=Tt3skG&Width=1440