Hello John. I enjoyed watching your video on how to override a pir sensor using a two gang and centre off switch. I Set up a practice board and found the same result can be achieved if you use a one gang one way switch and a 3 core cable from the pir to the switch.Take the supply feed to the switch connect the live feed to common and the pir switch line to L1 or L2 and join the neutrals using a connector block or wago.
@@JayG2K connect permanent live from the board and pir to common then add the switch line to L1. The neutrals go into a connector block as does the earth.
Well that's had an odd effect. I now feel totally inspired to review and upgrade the external lighting chez nous. Been thinking about a series of lights along the drive all switched by one PIR but wasn't entirely sure how to wire it, was planning to google it! This was excellent, thanks JW.
Thank you for this superb explanation. Very clear, so I feel inspired to upgrade the wiring to two outside lamps where the PIR lamp terminals have been used as a junction box for a 2bd (non-PIR) Bulkhead Lamp.
Interesting solution - I have just fitted a pir sensor in a cupboard - 1 x 2 way switch only so supply goes to switch, then to sensor and on to light using just twin and earth cable. In this case, the client doesn’t really need the option of the light being switched on permanently in case she forgets to turn it off after closing the door! I can see a great use for this circuit in a garden with a pir where you may want to keep the floodlights on during bbq season etc., - so thumbs up from me JW👍
Block of flats hallway lighting was on timeswitch. I had it converted to PIR with two override switches as per John's first circuit. Fitted our understairs cupboard with PIR, permanently on. Worked fine for years then failed to turn off. Now plan to fit a door activated switch to do the job - meaning light would remain on while door open - which PIR turned off ! As doorbell transformer is in there, Plan to light the cupboard with LEDs off that via door switch. One day, I might get round to it !
Another suggestion if you're not sure if the PIR is using a relay or electronic switch then: 1. Always keep the PIR powered up to the Power Line and Neutral. 2. Connect PIR output SL to the 3-way switch L1. 3. Connect Power Line L to 3-way switch L2. 4. Connect light line L to 3-way switch common C. 5. Connect light Neutral N to Power Line Neutral N.
13:04 - connection to light, I'd have connected to the bottom terminal of switch 2 and the live out of the top of switch 1 I'd have connected to terminal 1 on the top of switch 2. For the purposes of clarity of drawing. It'd also have the electrical safety benefit of not making SL live on the PIR when the light was permanently on. I take it you're now going to connect the live out of sw 1 to the bottom terminal of sw 2.
A massive thumbs up John a fantastic video well explained, no possibility of making any mistakes in connections brilliantly narrated and a treasure source of knowledge. THANKS.
Moved into a new house recently that has photocell lights with an override and I’ve been puzzling how these work so great timing John. Ours have a fused spur as the main on/off and then a separate switch for the override and the photocells are built into the lights but I can at least now understand how they can work. Great video thanks.
Great vid John last job I was on we ran a feed to a key switch then a 3 core to the pir then connected the switched feed for the lighting circuit in the pir
Very helpful. Being an apprentice I’m really struggling with taking the feed to the switch with one ways all the way to intermediate. I know you’ve done some videos on this but if you’re looking for ideas for more I’d love to get more guidance on this. Thanks for the videos JW
Thanks for the presentation, It explains something that was puzzling me. My outside lights were wired with 3 core & earth, and the wiring diagram in the lid showed no external connection to the light connection. In fact there the black core was connected. When the switch was activated the lamp lit continually, and in the off position it was controlled by the PIR. Your presentation made clear what was intended. However they had cheapened the installation by using no second switch. The line connection was hard wired without a switch!! Now I see how it is supposed to work, I can live with it, but it is not Ideal.
A nice explanation, maybe best to have flat faced connection box (wiska) to mount your PIR on. All your connections are up in the eves and not show excessive cables coming down (surface mounting) at switch which is all the customer will see. Also multiple PIR's need to link their switch Line to multiple lights.
I was thinking of having a PIR (or micro) in my bathroom, and would want an override switch on the outside to have it permanently on or on auto. However I'd also wanted a switch, on a separate gang (maybe above the door with the fused switch) that would override it to be permanently off. The trick I guess is not have any single cables going somewhere but a mixture of 3 and 4 core cables!
My preference for switch labelling is off/on and auto/man (ual). I've done this switching arrangement on a number of situations, whether lighting, heating or compressing.
Thanks great explanation. was thinking of using a standard 3 pin plug for the supply to plug into a wall or garage socket so only needing a single 1 gang 2 way switch same as your second example but the on/off at the socket. This may sound strange but I'm retro fitting a pir to existing circuit just replacing the switch so will connect the neutrals inside the switch using wago 3 way connector
Love your vids JW, but I’ve come across this so many times… and I hate this method… if you put switch to auto, day or night, the sensor has to settle for a couple of minutes, and if it’s a photocell it will start clicking and almost certainly mess up due to back feeds. I usually connect mains to L1 and auto sw back to L2, with sw to the light connected to common. This way there is no back feeds and no sensor settle time…
Thomas McBurney - only if both sensors use a relay contact to perform the switching. If the sensor uses solid state switching, the sensors may be damaged if wired in parallel.
Hi, is this set up have no constant power to the PIR ? As in one of your other videos you suggested that PIR should have a live wire connection as would more reliable? Or maybe I seen the video somewhere else suggested that PIR needs a constant live connected!!
I think I'll do it by going sw1 + sensor in series with sw2 in parallel to both. Instead of sw1 + sensor in series and just the sw2 and sensor in parallel, which this seems to be. It's a small difference both in wiring (just tie the switch inputs together instead of sw1 out to sw2 in) and operation, but it does mean that sw1 is just for enabling/disabling the sensor and sw2 operates the load as normal. Nice and separate functions for the switches, no need to have both on to definitely have the light on. Although it will be. It's just a single difference in the truth table, when sw1 is off and sw2 is on the load is on, instead of off.
Great video. However I connected my outside light photocell as described for 3 position switch. Everything fine except for when in the override on position. Lights are manually on but I can here photocell switching on and off constantly. This is due to removing live input to photocell but having live connection to photocell switched output. I could replace photocell with relay output type but manufacturers detail don’t appear to give this info. In my opinion better arrangement is to connect live in and input to photocell to switch position 1, connect switched live from photo cell to switch position 2 and connect feed to lights to the common terminal on the switch. Has the benefit of keeping photocell live and not back feeding the photocell which I believe causes a fault for most common types.
@@jwflame Thank you for your reply... I thought there might have been some sort of new invention to be able to have a 3 position switch from multiple location 🤯 without making things complicated for the customer. Much love from Australia, thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Could you send 230 volts to the sensor switched live without disconnecting the sensor permanent live ? ?? This might be an option in an existing installation where you wanted to add a override switch in a different location without touching the existing wiring .
We have outdoor lights connected to one switch such that in one position the PIR works but in the other position the light is permanently on. Works great for us. Is this bad practice or dangerous? I'd like to do something similar in a hallway but do not want to use two switches. The PIR is using 0.5 watts if you don't have an 'everything off' switch, but beyond that is it terrible?
Hi John, brilliant video/explanation. Would it be possible to add a timer switch to your wiring diagram so that when switched on permanently the timer could control the on period. If yes could you provide guidance on how this could be done. Many thanks. Kind regards, Kenny.
Really useful video, thank you. I wonder if i can use a timeclock instead of the override switch, such that I can bring the light on under timeclock control, and then when the Timeclock switches off, the light remains under PIR control, so effectively using the timeclock as an override.
Hi John, Thanks for the video, really like the idea of the centre off switch. Can this arrangement work if I wire in series i.e. have a 3core and E from the centre off switch to the PIR, then a twin and E from the PIR to the light? I can then connect the PIR SL straight to the light? I'll be using wiska boxes for wiring connections throughout. Any help would be appreciated.
Got 2 of those led type lights with a sensor that you can turn off/on with in 3 seconds it stays on they’re blooma ones form B&Q I believe Only got them last year
Great video - you have a way with words and making things simple. One question: Can I have a PIR to turn low-level mood lights on (like decking-type lights) in my bathroom BUT also have the main bathroom lights connected to the mood lights - so that ALL lights come on from the main switch BUT ONLY the low level mood lights come on via the PIR? This is to have the low-level lights come on in the middle of the night for a bathroom visit. My diagram suggests that the mood lights will pass on the current to the rest of the lights so the PIR will sadly turn EVERYTHING on. I'm wracking my brains to see a workaround. And believe that YOU have the answer! :) Cheers
@@jwflame Mmmm thinking hard John. So the existing wiring when turned on - switches the relay to 'on' and therefore lights the low-level mood lights. But - the low-level lights if turned on by the PIR are not directly connected back to the existing lights, so, therefore, won't just turn everything else on! I think I have it! 😁 (Supplementary Bonus question: Do you know of such a relay? Looking online they look like they would sit in a sort of Consumer Unit setup).
I have outside lights with a sensor built in and also a separate PIR by the garage. this has a three wire feed. I put two new light bulbs in and thought that I would clean the separate sensor but I must have damaged it. Can I replace it with an ordinary PIR or a special one? What would the wiring configuration be? Any help would be great.
Hi thanks for the video you explain everything nice and clearly I am thinking of installing outside lights with a double switch and PIR like in the video but I don’t require the all off switch just PIR override as with the 1st switch I want to control 1 light by the back door and have flood lights controlled by PIR with override for BBQ’S ect Would it work if I just connected the common from the switch to the PIR L or will I need 3 switches as they will be outside switches
Thanks for the help always get confused with wiring of lights. The second option you have if there are two rooms that are to be controlled separately. We would just need a live connector as well same as earth and neutral and just supply both switches from there I suppose?
You would ideally loop the supply in and out of each switch, connecting through the neutral and earth cores in a wago or similar and linking the line via the common terminal in the switch.
Hi, if you didn't need nned the override facility on a PIR, would you simply be able to use a 1 Gang 2 Way Switch, using the L1, L2 and COM connections as per your video at around 14:30 mins? Thank you!
Sir JohnW, may I add that for the 1st diagram with 2switches used i.e. 2Gang2Way, its sufficient to use 1WAY switch for both the switches there. Am I correct or otherwise?
John Ward Oh thanks for that bonus info... Outside UK but countries that still based itself to bs, its more common to find 2g1w , 3g1w, 4g1w and even 5g1w. its not common to spot 1g2w or 2g2w unless we really need those for 2way switching etc.
Hello John great video again re sensor wiring. sorry to be dense but I have a steinel dusk to dawn and has N L' N L Connections on the sensor. 4 lights. I have wired in the live and neutral from the supply and the other N I put the neutral from the first light and the L' I put the live from the light and the switch line from the live. unfortunately I only have the first light coming on and the other 3 are not coming on. I have checked and all the lights are serviceable ....HELP !!!!
Thank you for sharing this information as I found it very useful. Please if you can help me on the below, I be most grateful. I like to install a flood light with an external PIR sensor, similar to the 1 way switch design you show. The only problem is the current set up I have uses a switched fuse spur instead of a 1 way switch. I only want the light to stay in the PIR mode or off completely. From this can I directly connect the switched line output from the PIR to the light? If not, please can you explain so I understand. Thank you most kindly. Matt
Dear John Ward, if you can do one video on emergency lighting. In my workplace I do allot of emergency lighting and sensors, the sensors are fine for me but the emergency one is confusing. Some have back up battery supply and bypasses the ballast or relay and has different wiring. I tried to find the source of the power when the light is not on but was told it gets its power from battery? When I do the emergency lighting testing- I switch off the lights and the emergency lights come on- was asking the chief Engineering if he can explain where it is getting its power from? but he is not a qualified electrician so avoided the answer. If you can do one video on it, will be grateful. Thank you.
They all have back up battery ! SOMEWHERE ! There are self contained units that have a battery in the light and there are lights fed from a central battery in the building - that's 'old style' but still valid. (And probably far better !)
The vast majority of emergency lights, or lights with an emergency mode have an internal battery. When supplied with mains power, a charging circuit charges the battery. When mains fails, the battery supplies an electronic module, which in turn powers the light.
I have a question, just fitted a pir in the bathroom, but it stops working if we use the shower, I guess the infrared won't pick up though the shower glass, is the microwave version going to work better.....
Yes, microwave will work through glass. However make sure to get an adjustable one, otherwise it will also work through the door, window and in some cases through the floor/ceiling into other rooms.
What if you had 3 PIR sensors on different sides of a small building that all worked a single bank of say 4 lights? The total lighting load within the PIR's Amp loading. Can that be done even if 2 or all 3 PIR's were at some point tripped and passing current?
Is it possible for a single switch to be the slave and have the PIR as the master? Ideally i would want PIR in use all the time but a switch to make the light stay on until the switch is set to off - i dont need the centre off position and ideally i just want a pull cord
For whatever reason, the setup on the second switch in the first setup makes me uncomfortable. I'd have rather seen the live go from the first switch, and jump to the left hand terminal of the second switch, rather than the common. Then the light connects to the common, and the sensor connects to the right hand terminal of the switch. This way, on and off behaves as expected, and the auto switch either goes from left to common to light (always on), or live goes from first switch, to pir, to right terminal to common, to light. In this configuration there is only ever one live path to the load and no loops. I don't mind loops in DC systems, but they make me upset in AC. I'm not sure if that sentiment is based in reality.
Version 2 (21:00) I'd be looking for a switch with off in the upper position, not centre - and centre being 'auto' - just to maintain the loose standard of up for off.
Question: I would like to program my chicken coop heat lights to come on at dark and go off when when it is 50ﾟor more outside which is which is well after it becomes light. Wondering if you have an idea on how to wire or program this? Combo heat/light sensor?
What if you want to have the left switch be the on/off to the power to the auto sensor/light combo....... and have the right side switch make the light turn permanently on or permanently off override to the sensor light? Is that possible? If I am understanding this correctly; the right side switch in your illustration would either allow the sensor/light to be in sensor 'auto' mode, or sensor 'always on' mode..... but to turn the entire sensor/light 'off'..... requires the left side switch to be in the 'off' position, if you wanted to keep the sensor/light completely 'off/disabled.' Can't it be wired so the right side switch overrides the sensor/light normal operation of the left side switch by turning the light permanently 'on' or permanently 'off?' or, is that overly complicating things?
Would it be acceptable to wire the PIR to be permanently connected, and just switch the PIR switch line? I ask because many PIR sensors switch on when initially powered, but you may want to be able to set the light to auto without having it illuminated.
Great video! Why must an earth be taken to one of these twist on dusk till dawn sensors when 1. It's plastic, and 2. there isn't even a termination point for it? Seems like a pointless endeavour to me.
Great video but the problem I find is that most flood lights now include a sensor but they are now all sealed and you can't get access to bypass them anymore. This is somewhat frustrating as it means buying separate units, separate mounts plus a more complex wiring. The old one you could disconnect and rewire!
Hello I've looked at all your videos but cannot find a microwave sensor with manual overide. I'm trying to fit a V-TAC VT-8077 Microwave Sensor 360° white with manual Override Function to 240v battern lights in my workshop , it has four connectors N NL L middle connector for load I've connected all to power fine, but the light keeps tripping the house RCD, I've connected the earth cable from the power to the load lead, could this be causing the problem, not sure how or where the earth's should be connected, your help, or anyone's help would be desperately appreciated.
RCDs trip on earth faults, which will either be L to E or N to E. As the sensor has no E connection, it's not the sensor causing it. More likely incorrect wiring at the lights or a damaged cable.
Having designed a few PIRs in a past life I can say your simple description of the way the sensor works is possibly the best I've heard. One point though: PIRs detect moving difference in heat - they'll detect something moving that's lower in temperature than the background just as well as something higher in temperature. This can give rise to false triggering when, say, wind moves a tree/bush in front of a wall that's been heated by the sun most of the day. [Edit] A second point: True Doppler microwaves work outside OK. It's the simple change of field ones that use a repurposed PIR control IC that don't. [Edit 2] PIRs work fine indoors - that's why they're used in security systems including domestic. IME heat rising from radiators isn't a problem with basic twin-element pyrosensors as they are most sensitive to horizontal movement. Quad sensors which detect movement both horizontal and vertical directions might have an issue, but they are more (or rather were when I was working on them) for commercial use.
I had a feeling plants triggered them and that explains that ! I was pondering in Asda one day by the doors. Usual set up - sliding doors, pair of security detectors and overhead blast heater. Asda put a loose advertising sleeve over the security detectors. The fan heater over the door caused the advert sleeves to flap about - so the doors opened :)
Is it possible to get a sensor with both microwave and PIR technology that requires both types to be tripped before the circuit completes? Wouldn't this be the best solution?
Hi JW great videos. I am trying to work out unsuccessfully in my head how to wire up multiple sensors to multiple lights, with any sensor activating all of the lights. The system is up a stairwell. Thanks for any response 🙂
3C+E chaining all the PIRs together, then back to switch control point as per JW's diagrams. Any sensor triggers all lights. You probably worked that out by now of course...
This: www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/506614-10a-3-position-switch-module-polar-white or this: www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/506614-10a-3-position-switch-module-polar-white There are probably others.
@@heffo1992 The obvious solution would be to link them in parallel using 3 core + E, chain as many as you like together, any one triggers the light comes on.
Every time I turn on the ON/OFF switch ( please note the PIR switch is in auto) the sensors click many times and the down lights flashes many times. After that the system settles. I am using exactly the same first configuration. Can someone advise? Thank you.
The little round cutout things you see in bumpers (especially rear bumper for reversing sensors) are ultrasonic. Braking assist systems likely use microwave. I've never been a fan of such systems, so never really looked at the details. Self driving systems use a mix of lidar, camera and microwave sensors.
I can't find a supplier of a PIR with N.L.SL. & E, none that I can find have SL. I have wired for the double switch installation but I'm stuck for the correct PIR. Can you advise of a supplier please?
All 230V PIRs have SL - they would be entirely useless if they only had L,N,E. This: www.screwfix.com/p/lap-standalone-pir-180/8461v or this: www.screwfix.com/p/lap-standalone-pir-180/8461v or www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/131732-180-pir-motion-detector-white or pretty much any others. The only real choices are the angle of coverage and the maximum load that it can switch.
@@jwflame Thank you very much for your reply John. Re buying a new PIR, everyone I could find wiring details for online only had L.N.E; these included the Screwfix models you've suggested. Screwfix said they knew of and used to stock L.N.E.SL. but that all their stock now worked on the quick on/off to control a light's 'permanent on' feature. I had run the new 3+1 cable before I removed my old PIR, intending to complete as per your two switch diagram. My old PIR has N.N.E.L. L1.L2, the two neutrals are connected/looped. I have wired both lives into L and the lamps live into L1, - its working. My old PIR was to be replaced, it was only functioning if I put my hand up close to it. With a clean, it now is back to its best, probably about 8 meters. Thanks again for responding.
@@jwflame Hi John. I have the LAP pir you recommended. the available marked connections - N.N E. L. L1. L2. Using your 4 core double switch diagram N - Blue, Earth - E, Brown - L. the pir works fine. There is no SL connection marked, I tried the black in L1, it appeared to work as planned for a day or so, then the pir stopped functioning. I removed the black from L1, the pir function returned. I can pulse to have the light permanent but its confusing as to which state the function is at. Any advice?
Hello John. I enjoyed watching your video on how to override a pir sensor using a two gang and centre off switch.
I Set up a practice board and found the same result can be achieved if you use a one gang one way switch and a 3 core cable from the pir to the switch.Take the supply feed to the switch connect the live feed to common and the pir switch line to L1 or L2 and join the neutrals using a connector block or wago.
That’s the way our outside light was wired, PIR and on/off switch to override with one-gang.
how can it be a one way switch if you have L1 and L2. that would be a two way switch
@@JayG2K connect permanent live from the board and pir to common then add the switch line to L1. The neutrals go into a connector block as does the earth.
Well that's had an odd effect. I now feel totally inspired to review and upgrade the external lighting chez nous. Been thinking about a series of lights along the drive all switched by one PIR but wasn't entirely sure how to wire it, was planning to google it! This was excellent, thanks JW.
Thank you for this superb explanation. Very clear, so I feel inspired to upgrade the wiring to two outside lamps where the PIR lamp terminals have been used as a junction box for a 2bd (non-PIR) Bulkhead Lamp.
Interesting solution - I have just fitted a pir sensor in a cupboard - 1 x 2 way switch only so supply goes to switch, then to sensor and on to light using just twin and earth cable. In this case, the client doesn’t really need the option of the light being switched on permanently in case she forgets to turn it off after closing the door! I can see a great use for this circuit in a garden with a pir where you may want to keep the floodlights on during bbq season etc., - so thumbs up from me JW👍
Block of flats hallway lighting was on timeswitch. I had it converted to PIR with two override switches as per John's first circuit.
Fitted our understairs cupboard with PIR, permanently on. Worked fine for years then failed to turn off. Now plan to fit a door activated switch to do the job - meaning light would remain on while door open - which PIR turned off ! As doorbell transformer is in there, Plan to light the cupboard with LEDs off that via door switch. One day, I might get round to it !
I am no electrician, but your teaching is clear and very understandable. Thank you for sharing..
Another suggestion if you're not sure if the PIR is using a relay or electronic switch then: 1. Always keep the PIR powered up to the Power Line and Neutral. 2. Connect PIR output SL to the 3-way switch L1. 3. Connect Power Line L to 3-way switch L2. 4. Connect light line L to 3-way switch common C. 5. Connect light Neutral N to Power Line Neutral N.
how do I wire to an existing light. Can it be wired direct to the light fitting?
I did it this way, too.
13:04 - connection to light, I'd have connected to the bottom terminal of switch 2 and the live out of the top of switch 1 I'd have connected to terminal 1 on the top of switch 2. For the purposes of clarity of drawing. It'd also have the electrical safety benefit of not making SL live on the PIR when the light was permanently on.
I take it you're now going to connect the live out of sw 1 to the bottom terminal of sw 2.
A massive thumbs up John a fantastic video well explained, no possibility of making any mistakes in connections brilliantly narrated and a treasure source of knowledge. THANKS.
This is one way of doing it. Other options are available !
Moved into a new house recently that has photocell lights with an override and I’ve been puzzling how these work so great timing John. Ours have a fused spur as the main on/off and then a separate switch for the override and the photocells are built into the lights but I can at least now understand how they can work. Great video thanks.
You know you can have a single switch to override right? He wires it with 2 switches which is just really weird
Absolutely superb explanation. You have saved me a massive headache (and probably massive electrocution). Just brilliant 👍🏻
Great vid John last job I was on we ran a feed to a key switch then a 3 core to the pir then connected the switched feed for the lighting circuit in the pir
Very helpful. Being an apprentice I’m really struggling with taking the feed to the switch with one ways all the way to intermediate. I know you’ve done some videos on this but if you’re looking for ideas for more I’d love to get more guidance on this. Thanks for the videos JW
Cheers John been ignoring an issue for months thanks for the help worked out first time too
Thanks for the presentation, It explains something that was puzzling me. My outside lights were wired with 3 core & earth, and the wiring diagram in the lid showed no external connection to the light connection. In fact there the black core was connected. When the switch was activated the lamp lit continually, and in the off position it was controlled by the PIR. Your presentation made clear what was intended. However they had cheapened the installation by using no second switch. The line connection was hard wired without a switch!!
Now I see how it is supposed to work, I can live with it, but it is not Ideal.
Hi John,
Totally brilliant, have used it and it works a treat.
Regards Kairos
Best explanation I've found. Thank you
Great content, just fitted PIR with gridswitch, worked first time.
Brilliant and quite comprehensive explanation.
Question : how can we connect such a sensor light connected to an extraction fan?
love the way you simply methods 👍🏾
Great presentation! I have learned a lot from you in just a few minutes. Thank you!
A nice explanation, maybe best to have flat faced connection box (wiska) to mount your PIR on. All your connections are up in the eves and not show excessive cables coming down (surface mounting) at switch which is all the customer will see. Also multiple PIR's need to link their switch Line to multiple lights.
I was thinking of having a PIR (or micro) in my bathroom, and would want an override switch on the outside to have it permanently on or on auto. However I'd also wanted a switch, on a separate gang (maybe above the door with the fused switch) that would override it to be permanently off. The trick I guess is not have any single cables going somewhere but a mixture of 3 and 4 core cables!
Excellent video and solution for PIR lights. Thanks
You missed pointing out that in the dusk to dawn photocell the arrow has to point North to work correctly.
Interesting point but I've not come across a direction dependent sensor !
Nicholas Pratt - that’s fine for us in the south of the country, but if you are already ‘up North’, which way do you point it 🤣
@@Mark1024MAK Further north !
Santa is screwed then, he can literally only point it due south!
My preference for switch labelling is off/on and auto/man (ual).
I've done this switching arrangement on a number of situations, whether lighting, heating or compressing.
Thanks great explanation. was thinking of using a standard 3 pin plug for the supply to plug into a wall or garage socket so only needing a single 1 gang 2 way switch same as your second example but the on/off at the socket. This may sound strange but I'm retro fitting a pir to existing circuit just replacing the switch so will connect the neutrals inside the switch using wago 3 way connector
You make everything make sense. Thank you.
Thanks for the great video John 👍
Where can I get that single switch John was talking about? What is the name of that switch?
uk.farnell.com/mk/k4899whi/grid-plus-switch-2-way-off/dp/3458766
Love your vids JW, but I’ve come across this so many times… and I hate this method… if you put switch to auto, day or night, the sensor has to settle for a couple of minutes, and if it’s a photocell it will start clicking and almost certainly mess up due to back feeds. I usually connect mains to L1 and auto sw back to L2, with sw to the light connected to common. This way there is no back feeds and no sensor settle time…
Is it possible to join two PIRs to a single light fixture?
Yes just extend the 3C +E from pir 1 to any number of additional pir sensors.
Thomas McBurney - only if both sensors use a relay contact to perform the switching. If the sensor uses solid state switching, the sensors may be damaged if wired in parallel.
Really simple cheers for that
Hi, is this set up have no constant power to the PIR ? As in one of your other videos you suggested that PIR should have a live wire connection as would more reliable? Or maybe I seen the video somewhere else suggested that PIR needs a constant live connected!!
Great Stuff again John, Thanks for the video and sharing your knowledge : )
I think I'll do it by going sw1 + sensor in series with sw2 in parallel to both. Instead of sw1 + sensor in series and just the sw2 and sensor in parallel, which this seems to be. It's a small difference both in wiring (just tie the switch inputs together instead of sw1 out to sw2 in) and operation, but it does mean that sw1 is just for enabling/disabling the sensor and sw2 operates the load as normal. Nice and separate functions for the switches, no need to have both on to definitely have the light on. Although it will be. It's just a single difference in the truth table, when sw1 is off and sw2 is on the load is on, instead of off.
Great video. However I connected my outside light photocell as described for 3 position switch. Everything fine except for when in the override on position. Lights are manually on but I can here photocell switching on and off constantly. This is due to removing live input to photocell but having live connection to photocell switched output. I could replace photocell with relay output type but manufacturers detail don’t appear to give this info. In my opinion better arrangement is to connect live in and input to photocell to switch position 1, connect switched live from photo cell to switch position 2 and connect feed to lights to the common terminal on the switch. Has the benefit of keeping photocell live and not back feeding the photocell which I believe causes a fault for most common types.
Hi JW, Is there a way of incorporating an override switch in a 2 way or intermediate switch setting?
A double pole switch used to connect all 3 wires together would turn the light on, and prevent it being turned off from any of the other switches.
@@jwflame Thank you for your reply... I thought there might have been some sort of new invention to be able to have a 3 position switch from multiple location 🤯 without making things complicated for the customer.
Much love from Australia, thank you for sharing your knowledge.
A great video John. Do you know whether it is possible to use a PIR with a 1500 watt electric radiator? If so how would it be wired?
use a contactor if it cannot cope with the load
Can we have more on lighting circuit types please
arron norton there’s plenty on RUclips, search 2plate 3plate methods
Could you send 230 volts to the sensor switched live without disconnecting the sensor permanent live ? ?? This might be an option in an existing installation where you wanted to add a override switch in a different location without touching the existing wiring .
Yes, that will work. On most the output is just a relay contact, so it won't damage anything by connecting it to L externally.
@@jwflame Thanks . The PIR i just ordered showed in the online specification sheet that it can be manually bypassed this way
We have outdoor lights connected to one switch such that in one position the PIR works but in the other position the light is permanently on. Works great for us. Is this bad practice or dangerous? I'd like to do something similar in a hallway but do not want to use two switches.
The PIR is using 0.5 watts if you don't have an 'everything off' switch, but beyond that is it terrible?
Hi John, brilliant video/explanation. Would it be possible to add a timer switch to your wiring diagram so that when switched on permanently the timer could control the on period. If yes could you provide guidance on how this could be done. Many thanks.
Kind regards,
Kenny.
Really useful video, thank you. I wonder if i can use a timeclock instead of the override switch, such that I can bring the light on under timeclock control, and then when the Timeclock switches off, the light remains under PIR control, so effectively using the timeclock as an override.
Yes, a timeclock is just a switch operated by a clock - the principles of wiring it are exactly the same.
Think 2 gang switch was totally un necessary.. the SL from the PIR could have gone straight to the light.
What is the benefit of the overide?
Great video, but one question. How would this change if it was at the end of an intermediate light circuit?
Hi John, Thanks for the video, really like the idea of the centre off switch.
Can this arrangement work if I wire in series i.e. have a 3core and E from the centre off switch to the PIR, then a twin and E from the PIR to the light? I can then connect the PIR SL straight to the light? I'll be using wiska boxes for wiring connections throughout. Any help would be appreciated.
Got 2 of those led type lights with a sensor that you can turn off/on with in 3 seconds it stays on they’re blooma ones form B&Q I believe
Only got them last year
Cucumber Man yes, they are definetly still on sale.
Michael Birchall I’m glad because I think one is on its way out lol 😂
Hi John great videos. Is it possible just to have a switch that turns the pir and light off when not needed? Thanks
No doubt I'll be referring back to this, thanks 👍
Great video - you have a way with words and making things simple. One question: Can I have a PIR to turn low-level mood lights on (like decking-type lights) in my bathroom BUT also have the main bathroom lights connected to the mood lights - so that ALL lights come on from the main switch BUT ONLY the low level mood lights come on via the PIR? This is to have the low-level lights come on in the middle of the night for a bathroom visit. My diagram suggests that the mood lights will pass on the current to the rest of the lights so the PIR will sadly turn EVERYTHING on. I'm wracking my brains to see a workaround. And believe that YOU have the answer! :) Cheers
You will need a relay. 230V coil connects to the existing lighting, and the contacts of the relay connected in parallel with the contacts of the PIR.
@@jwflame Mmmm thinking hard John. So the existing wiring when turned on - switches the relay to 'on' and therefore lights the low-level mood lights. But - the low-level lights if turned on by the PIR are not directly connected back to the existing lights, so, therefore, won't just turn everything else on! I think I have it! 😁 (Supplementary Bonus question: Do you know of such a relay? Looking online they look like they would sit in a sort of Consumer Unit setup).
@@jwflame And mega thanks for the reply John - I've had sleepless nights thinking about this satanic dilema! :)
I have outside lights with a sensor built in and also a separate PIR by the garage. this has a three wire feed. I put two new light bulbs in and thought that I would clean the separate sensor but I must have damaged it. Can I replace it with an ordinary PIR or a special one? What would the wiring configuration be? Any help would be great.
Hi thanks for the video you explain everything nice and clearly I am thinking of installing outside lights with a double switch and PIR like in the video but I don’t require the all off switch just PIR override as with the 1st switch I want to control 1 light by the back door and have flood lights controlled by PIR with override for BBQ’S ect
Would it work if I just connected the common from the switch to the PIR L or will I need 3 switches as they will be outside switches
Thanks for the help always get confused with wiring of lights. The second option you have if there are two rooms that are to be controlled separately. We would just need a live connector as well same as earth and neutral and just supply both switches from there I suppose?
More lighting circuit info here: www.flameport.com/electric/lighting_circuits/index.cs4
You would ideally loop the supply in and out of each switch, connecting through the neutral and earth cores in a wago or similar and linking the line via the common terminal in the switch.
Hi John... I've learnt so much from you. Can you please please do video of emergency lighting in single and T&E. Thank you.
Hi, if you didn't need nned the override facility on a PIR, would you simply be able to use a 1 Gang 2 Way Switch, using the L1, L2 and COM connections as per your video at around 14:30 mins? Thank you!
Sir JohnW, may I add that for the 1st diagram with 2switches used i.e. 2Gang2Way, its sufficient to use 1WAY switch for both the switches there.
Am I correct or otherwise?
You are correct.
Yes. They are drawn as 2 way because 2 gang switches are almost always 2 way types.
John Ward Oh thanks for that bonus info...
Outside UK but countries that still based itself to bs, its more common to find 2g1w , 3g1w, 4g1w and even 5g1w. its not common to spot 1g2w or 2g2w unless we really need those for 2way switching etc.
Hello John great video again re sensor wiring. sorry to be dense but I have a steinel dusk to dawn and has N L' N L Connections on the sensor. 4 lights. I have wired in the live and neutral from the supply and the other N I put the neutral from the first light and the L' I put the live from the light and the switch line from the live. unfortunately I only have the first light coming on and the other 3 are not coming on. I have checked and all the lights are serviceable ....HELP !!!!
Would you not have the pir permanently live and add the switch into it as a on off override or do it this way.
outstanding.
Thank you
Hi john great video very informative, how do you go about R1+R2 testing and insulation resistance testing with a pir in circuit ? thanks
Thank you for sharing this information as I found it very useful.
Please if you can help me on the below, I be most grateful.
I like to install a flood light with an external PIR sensor, similar to the 1 way switch design you show. The only problem is the current set up I have uses a switched fuse spur instead of a 1 way switch. I only want the light to stay in the PIR mode or off completely.
From this can I directly connect the switched line output from the PIR to the light? If not, please can you explain so I understand.
Thank you most kindly.
Matt
Yes, LNE from the spur to LNE in the PIR, light connects to PIR switched L, N&E
Thank you very much for this information John. Will continue to learn this profession going forward.
Dear John Ward, if you can do one video on emergency lighting. In my workplace I do allot of emergency lighting and sensors, the sensors are fine for me but the emergency one is confusing. Some have back up battery supply and bypasses the ballast or relay and has different wiring. I tried to find the source of the power when the light is not on but was told it gets its power from battery? When I do the emergency lighting testing- I switch off the lights and the emergency lights come on- was asking the chief Engineering if he can explain where it is getting its power from? but he is not a qualified electrician so avoided the answer. If you can do one video on it, will be grateful. Thank you.
They all have back up battery ! SOMEWHERE ! There are self contained units that have a battery in the light and there are lights fed from a central battery in the building - that's 'old style' but still valid. (And probably far better !)
The vast majority of emergency lights, or lights with an emergency mode have an internal battery. When supplied with mains power, a charging circuit charges the battery. When mains fails, the battery supplies an electronic module, which in turn powers the light.
Fantastic!!! Keep up the great videos
Global lighting-wise, this video's the other way around ! Starts with the globe unlit, ends with it lit !
Thank you for the information John
I have a question, just fitted a pir in the bathroom, but it stops working if we use the shower, I guess the infrared won't pick up though the shower glass, is the microwave version going to work better.....
Yes, microwave will work through glass. However make sure to get an adjustable one, otherwise it will also work through the door, window and in some cases through the floor/ceiling into other rooms.
@@jwflame thanks for letting me know that...
great job thx good experience and explanation
What if you had 3 PIR sensors on different sides of a small building that all worked a single bank of say 4 lights? The total lighting load within the PIR's Amp loading. Can that be done even if 2 or all 3 PIR's were at some point tripped and passing current?
Yes. Current would be shared between the PIRs if more than one was active, but that doesn't matter.
@@jwflame Thanks for the reply. I am about to wire it all up and using a 10A contactor for the 4 lights to take the load off the PIR's.
Is it possible for a single switch to be the slave and have the PIR as the master? Ideally i would want PIR in use all the time but a switch to make the light stay on until the switch is set to off - i dont need the centre off position and ideally i just want a pull cord
For whatever reason, the setup on the second switch in the first setup makes me uncomfortable. I'd have rather seen the live go from the first switch, and jump to the left hand terminal of the second switch, rather than the common. Then the light connects to the common, and the sensor connects to the right hand terminal of the switch. This way, on and off behaves as expected, and the auto switch either goes from left to common to light (always on), or live goes from first switch, to pir, to right terminal to common, to light. In this configuration there is only ever one live path to the load and no loops.
I don't mind loops in DC systems, but they make me upset in AC. I'm not sure if that sentiment is based in reality.
I watched this to answer one question: Is it really OK to backfeed the PIR output. For an old 'relay' sure. What if it's a semiconductor?
Version 2 (21:00) I'd be looking for a switch with off in the upper position, not centre - and centre being 'auto' - just to maintain the loose standard of up for off.
Question: I would like to program my chicken coop heat lights to come on at dark and go off when when it is 50ﾟor more outside which is which is well after it becomes light.
Wondering if you have an idea on how to wire or program this?
Combo heat/light sensor?
if wiring the on off on in singles could you connect SL directly to light Line and another single from L2 directly to light L?
That sounds like the same difference but without the SL going via the switch again.
You have such a cool voice ...I'm envious!!
What if you want to have the left switch be the on/off to the power to the auto sensor/light combo....... and have the right side switch make the light turn permanently on or permanently off override to the sensor light? Is that possible? If I am understanding this correctly; the right side switch in your illustration would either allow the sensor/light to be in sensor 'auto' mode, or sensor 'always on' mode..... but to turn the entire sensor/light 'off'..... requires the left side switch to be in the 'off' position, if you wanted to keep the sensor/light completely 'off/disabled.' Can't it be wired so the right side switch overrides the sensor/light normal operation of the left side switch by turning the light permanently 'on' or permanently 'off?' or, is that overly complicating things?
If one switch is wired to permanently turn the light on or off, then it's just a normal switch. The other one will do nothing.
Another great video John Thanks! Can we have one on Power Factor please
Hi JW, thanks , could you explain connecting 2 motion sensor (PIR) lights to a switch, both as masters please.
Would it be acceptable to wire the PIR to be permanently connected, and just switch the PIR switch line? I ask because many PIR sensors switch on when initially powered, but you may want to be able to set the light to auto without having it illuminated.
Yes, that would work.
Brilliant vid, cheers!
Great video! Why must an earth be taken to one of these twist on dusk till dawn sensors when 1. It's plastic, and 2. there isn't even a termination point for it? Seems like a pointless endeavour to me.
Great video but the problem I find is that most flood lights now include a sensor but they are now all sealed and you can't get access to bypass them anymore. This is somewhat frustrating as it means buying separate units, separate mounts plus a more complex wiring. The old one you could disconnect and rewire!
You're just awesome! Precious content
Thank you
Hello I've looked at all your videos but cannot find a microwave sensor with manual overide. I'm trying to fit a V-TAC VT-8077 Microwave Sensor 360° white with manual Override Function to 240v battern lights in my workshop , it has four connectors N NL L middle connector for load I've connected all to power fine, but the light keeps tripping the house RCD, I've connected the earth cable from the power to the load lead, could this be causing the problem, not sure how or where the earth's should be connected, your help, or anyone's help would be desperately appreciated.
RCDs trip on earth faults, which will either be L to E or N to E.
As the sensor has no E connection, it's not the sensor causing it. More likely incorrect wiring at the lights or a damaged cable.
Having designed a few PIRs in a past life I can say your simple description of the way the sensor works is possibly the best I've heard.
One point though: PIRs detect moving difference in heat - they'll detect something moving that's lower in temperature than the background just as well as something higher in temperature. This can give rise to false triggering when, say, wind moves a tree/bush in front of a wall that's been heated by the sun most of the day.
[Edit] A second point: True Doppler microwaves work outside OK. It's the simple change of field ones that use a repurposed PIR control IC that don't.
[Edit 2] PIRs work fine indoors - that's why they're used in security systems including domestic. IME heat rising from radiators isn't a problem with basic twin-element pyrosensors as they are most sensitive to horizontal movement. Quad sensors which detect movement both horizontal and vertical directions might have an issue, but they are more (or rather were when I was working on them) for commercial use.
I had a feeling plants triggered them and that explains that !
I was pondering in Asda one day by the doors. Usual set up - sliding doors, pair of security detectors and overhead blast heater. Asda put a loose advertising sleeve over the security detectors. The fan heater over the door caused the advert sleeves to flap about - so the doors opened :)
@@millomweb I've seen that more than once.
Hi John, I have a 400W Halogen floodlight with a PIR. Is there a way I can add another PIR sensor as well as the one on the light?
If all 4 terminals are accessible (L,SL,N,E) then yes, just connect another sensor to those.
@@jwflame thank you!
Amazing
Is it possible to get a sensor with both microwave and PIR technology that requires both types to be tripped before the circuit completes? Wouldn't this be the best solution?
They exist, but are typically used for intruder alarm systems rather than stand alone sensors for lighting.
@@jwflame Thank you.
can you connect 2 sensors to one wire system and what if one sensor fails will my system pick it up i have a adt alarm system
Not watched the vid yet but I did something similar using two switches. I used Triple & Earth for part of the wiring.
HI. my PIR sensor does not have a SL terminal. What can I do? Thanks
May be marked Load or something similar. It must have one, otherwise it would be useless.
Hi JW great videos. I am trying to work out unsuccessfully in my head how to wire up multiple sensors to multiple lights, with any sensor activating all of the lights. The system is up a stairwell.
Thanks for any response 🙂
3C+E chaining all the PIRs together, then back to switch control point as per JW's diagrams. Any sensor triggers all lights. You probably worked that out by now of course...
What if your working with just 2 wire cable on a 12v system?
Where can you get household 3 position switches?
This: www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/506614-10a-3-position-switch-module-polar-white
or this: www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/506614-10a-3-position-switch-module-polar-white
There are probably others.
Could you do a video on how to link two PIRs to control the same light?
@@heffo1992 The obvious solution would be to link them in parallel using 3 core + E, chain as many as you like together, any one triggers the light comes on.
Every time I turn on the ON/OFF switch ( please note the PIR switch is in auto) the sensors click many times and the down lights flashes many times. After that the system settles. I am using exactly the same first configuration.
Can someone advise? Thank you.
Another gem from you John, thank you. Keep 'em coming!
Re microwave sensors - is that's what's used on vehicle proximity sensors ? If not, what are they ?
Some are ultrasonic...
The little round cutout things you see in bumpers (especially rear bumper for reversing sensors) are ultrasonic.
Braking assist systems likely use microwave. I've never been a fan of such systems, so never really looked at the details.
Self driving systems use a mix of lidar, camera and microwave sensors.
@@tin2001 Cheers - maybe one day I'll go poking around them with my ultrasonic amplifier !
pmailkeey - they (the ultrasonic type) often operate at around 38kHz to 42kHz or thereabouts.
@@Mark1024MAK Does that keep cats and dogs out of the way ?
My amp goes up to 120kHz from 18kHz estimate and reduces it to a humanly audible range.
Most pirs and lights still have the override facility. Some will stay on till dawn.
I can't find a supplier of a PIR with N.L.SL. & E, none that I can find have SL. I have wired for the double switch installation but I'm stuck for the correct PIR. Can you advise of a supplier please?
All 230V PIRs have SL - they would be entirely useless if they only had L,N,E.
This: www.screwfix.com/p/lap-standalone-pir-180/8461v
or this: www.screwfix.com/p/lap-standalone-pir-180/8461v
or www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/131732-180-pir-motion-detector-white
or pretty much any others.
The only real choices are the angle of coverage and the maximum load that it can switch.
@@jwflame Thank you very much for your reply John. Re buying a new PIR, everyone I could find wiring details for online only had L.N.E; these included the Screwfix models you've suggested. Screwfix said they knew of and used to stock L.N.E.SL. but that all their stock now worked on the quick on/off to control a light's 'permanent on' feature. I had run the new 3+1 cable before I removed my old PIR, intending to complete as per your two switch diagram. My old PIR has N.N.E.L. L1.L2, the two neutrals are connected/looped. I have wired both lives into L and the lamps live into L1, - its working. My old PIR was to be replaced, it was only functioning if I put my hand up close to it. With a clean, it now is back to its best, probably about 8 meters. Thanks again for responding.
@@jwflame Hi John. I have the LAP pir you recommended. the available marked connections - N.N E. L. L1. L2. Using your 4 core double switch diagram N - Blue, Earth - E, Brown - L. the pir works fine.
There is no SL connection marked, I tried the black in L1, it appeared to work as planned for a day or so, then the pir stopped functioning. I removed the black from L1, the pir function returned. I can pulse to have the light permanent but its confusing as to which state the function is at. Any advice?
and what is the point of terminating an earth to that fitting….? ( apart from the ‘regs’ say so!)