This tempo makes it very poetic and lyrical. I always was puzzled about all the big legato slurs written by Chopin. It looks like a little obsession of legato, considering single beat tempos which are not possible to render legato. This approach not only makes it possible but shows the pure beauty of this music. Thank you!
@@bernhardruchti Yes, Bernhard, I am pianist and composer. You can listen to my music here, if you want m.ruclips.net/video/KOOTKrG6Twc/видео.html You make great work. I hope you will continue !
The harmony progression is so clever in this etude that even if you play it at slow speed and replace arpeggios with chords , it is still very beautiful. You would normally do that during practice sessions, but the sublime starts hen metronome is around 140bpm + when you get arpeggios played fast enough so they tend to sound like rolled chords with a lot of harmonics blended together and when you also get the effect of the fast transition between the last note of the descending sequences, played with a light accent and the following left hand bass note which is the effect that transcended Martha Argerich's version and got her the 1st place in the 65 competition . As much as I like op 10 1 even at slow speed, we lose these effects and the true magical spirit that makes this etude unique. Having said that you play it very well and I am sure you would make it sound ever better should you play it at faster tempo.
Wonderful! I never really liked Chopin very much, but at this tempo I can enjoy this music like never before, it all makes sense. And your musicality also makes it possible. Great production too. Thank you!
The more I hear this, the more that it's the correct tempo becomes apparent. There's so much going on in the right hand that can't be easily heard (or played) at the traditionally modern tempos.
Concerning this Etude, Chopin's pupil, Friederike Müller-Streicher (1816-1895), quotes Chopin: You shall benefit from this Etude. If you learn it according to my instructions it will expand your hand and enable you to perform arpeggios like strokes of the [violin] bow. Unfortunately, instead of teaching, it frequently un-teaches everything. When Chopin met the virtuoso violinist Josef Slavík in Vienna (1830), he wrote : “Apart from Paganini, I have never heard anything comparable, ninety-six staccati with one stroke of the bow: incredible!" So Chopin's metronome marking, given in the original sources (MM 176 referring to quarter notes) is certainly to be taken in single beat rather than in double beat. And what's more, the pianos back then were quite different from those today. Shorter sound and lightness of touch which allowed and required faster tempi. Now, of course this rendition (in double beat? a little faster than Win Winters) is beautiful, and Chopin's music is so genius than it can stand different tempi, but I do not think it is fair to consider it as what Chopin intended.
Thank you for your appreciation and for your interest. I was wondering what made you conclude from the Müller-Streicher quote that Chopin's metronome markings must be intended as single-beat?
@@bernhardruchti Well, it is more the combination of the two quotes which makes me think that Chopin asked for very fast arpeggios for this study. It is clear also that Chopin was very impressed by Paganini's virtuosity and Josef Slavik's one (he composed his Etudes at the same time or shortly after that), and to play those arpeggios in double beat is not enough difficult for a virtuoso pianist. So Chopin's metrononome markings seem for me more logical in single beat.
@@rigel48 I see the pro's and con's for double-beat on a much more fundamental level. I don't know if you've watched my introduction to historical metronome markings? There I am displaying the limited likelihood of double-beat counting and the reason why I stick to the option nevertheless. ruclips.net/p/PLmyAMFyZ8tYlj8cXOLa7-nbJ-_BBG3EXN The two quotes you brought forward don't necessarily say anything about the chosen tempo, in my opinion. Musically speaking, the characterization Chopin gives is perfectly applicable to my version. This etude expands the hand and teaches to execute smooth and regular arpeggios. And from personal experience I can say that while the piece gets easier in terms of quickness, at the same time it gets significantly harder in terms of articulation and phrasing... So I would say that the aspects that speak for or against a double-beat rendition are not to be looked for in quotes like that but on the fundamental level of whether or not this option is likely in the historical context.
@@bernhardruchti Yes I have watched your videos "historical metronome markings" and those on Beethoven, Schumann, and Liszt, and your arguments for double-beat are quite relevant (and I would add that your Schumann Fantasy in double beat is extraordinarily beautiful). When Chopin says "enable you to perform arpeggios like strokes of the [violin] bow", do you think he is speaking of the 4 notes of each arpeggio or the whole run of arpeggios from bottom to top of the keyboard (and then from top to bottom) ? Paganini's caprice 5 seems to favour the second option, and so a very fast tempo. But of course this is pure assumption. I would also add that you play on a beautiful Steinway with sumptuous basses that allow you a left hand legato which, in my opinion, would be much more difficult to achieve on a period instrument at this tempo.
@@bernhardruchti By the way, it would be interesting to know why you decided to play this étude in double beat. For Beethoven and Schumann you made videos to explain your choice of tempi, why not for Chopin ? If I compare the first étude with the fourth (op 10), they are both in 4/4 time with same number of semiquavers per bar, but the first has for metronome marking : crotchet = 176 and the fourth has minim = 88. Which is for me the same tempo, but why not to use the same MM for both études? Has the first to be taken in whole beat and the fourth in half beat ? Also the first is Allegro and the fourth is Presto. Or is it the melodic line at the left hand that justified the Allegro for the first étude (if played in single beat) ?
It’s more beautiful (and playable) in this speed, i never really liked the crazy speed most famous pianists play it with. This speed gives me hope i am studying it. Very wonderful in all ways👌🏼thank you Bernard🙏🏼
Well done. At that tempo one can hear some nice things, harmonic movement especially. Saying that I feel it should go a bit quicker (not the crazy presto speeds we often hear!) but I tend to feel it IS after all an etude that should push one technically, which is why Chopin wrote them. It might be even more interesting to hear you play a tad faster version that would give it it's 'brilliance' which I feel Chopin is asking for. Would be nice to compare the two versions? Only my opinion of course but well done regardless
Thank you for commenting. It's a more "lyrical" virtuosity in that tempo. And it's still challenging from a technical point of view to play it that way...
This etude #1 op.10 is my favorite piece. I’m really happy to listen to this piece today. Nowadays the bass’ notes of Chopin’s works are played too strong like explosion sounds. I don’t like their insensitivity very much. However, this Chopin’s sound appears wavelike in a lake where melodies exist with the bass notes of the suitable volume the harmony of Chopin requires, and with less sentimental feelings.
Because I am banned from AuthenticSound’s channel, I have to borrow space from others. I don’t like it, but because I think I sometimes have some smart to say, I can’t stop. The «fight» between WBMPs and single beaters lives like just that. Some of us on the single beat side argue that the music sounds terrible in WBMP tempi. I agree whit that, but it is not a good argument in the debate, because a lot of people say they like WBMP-tempi mich better. So how to continue the discussion? I believe more in arguing woth logic. Personally, I think that the many videos here on RUclips of children playing the well-known classical pieces much faster than WBMP are a good argument against the WBMP theory. What about Chopin’s etudes? Listen to Haochen Zhang, 11 years old, performing the entire opus 10! Listen to his version of no 2. Afterwards, we compare it with Wim Winters’ version. Chopin was 19-20 years old when he composed opus 10. it is illogical for a child(mutiple children)to play Chopin’s etudes much faster than WBMP, when we know that Chopin himself had 8-10 more years to reach a virtuoso level. It is completely illogical. I’m happy to see that Bernhard Ruchti doesn’t write «in Real Historical Tempo» or «in Chopin’s Original Tempo» the way Wim Winters do. I am also familiar with Bernhard Ruchti’s line, quote: «In the end, the question how likely it is that double-beat counting was applied, is not that difficult to answer. The option for double -beat shows in the historical context, but its likelihood is limited, mainly due to the fact that no one ever raised such a question in the 19th century.»
I have a question for Mr Ruchti, but also for some others. A question, not an attack :). Many believe that Bach's influence on Chopin can be seen in this study, and playing it in double-beat makes this more obvious. Fine, I can live with that. However, there is another piece where the Bach-influence is at least as clear in my opinion. The first piano sonata (op. 4) starts with a Bachian texture which resembles the second invention. Chopins MM is halve 72 (Allegro Maestoso), since the theme is given in eights, this gives a tempo that is not unreasonable for a modern Bach performance. (Caveat: Bach writes sixteents, so that would be quarter 72). So my two questions: Do you think this should be double-beat also? And if not: why not here and yes in op. 10? How could a contemporary of Chopin know how he had to interpret the metronome? Thank you for your reply.
Thank you for your comment. I know about the connection made between this study and Bach’s famous first Prelude from the Well-tempered Clavier. However I am not entirely convinced how strong it actually is. Obviously the two pieces are in the same key and show broken chords. But other than that they are quite different regarding attitude and character ("Affect"), aren't they? Also, they are not related in terms of tempo, in my eyes. As for Opus 4, I will need to look more closely into it. I have not played the piece myself, and in order to estimate the likelihood of double-beat I would need to give it some time to come up with an appropriate answer to your question. It’s an interesting question since the time of the composition is close to Opus 10. Hopefully I will find some time in the near future!
@@bernhardruchti thank you for your reply. I was never very convinced by the link either, although I can imagine a young Chopin trying to play Bachs prelude with just his right hand and by moving this over the keyboard 'bumping into' the figuration he uses eventually.... could be just my imagination. But IF one accepts the link as an argument for double-beat (not saying you do) one should accept the other way around also. Best, and looking forward to what you might come up with.
Benjamin, I am sorry for my inadequate English. I am so happy that someone mention opus 4; Chopin was only 17 years old at the time. Are you familiar to Wolfgang Weller’s version of the 1st sonata? The final movement: «presto». Weller’s presto in whole beat is….is just a tragedy, and tells me that something has to be wrong whit Willem Talsma’s theory.
What is very interesting it is one of the first versions of the second etude from op.10, in a minor. Chopin wrote quarter notes not sixteens in the lower part of the right hand. And tempo mark was, if I remember correctly, half note equals 69. I think maybe for the hand of Rachmaninoff it would be possible to play like this in such a fast tempo, not for sure not for Chopin's hand. When he saw once Thalberg playing, he wrote in one of his letters '...he plays decimes like I play octaves'. It looks like he really used the metronome like a pendulum, in the would beat. In single beat there is to many absurds in his scores. I think his Nocturnes are very good example. Many of them are played in double beat well below the single beat tempo.
You can compare all available sources here...: www.chopinonline.ac.uk/ocve/browse/ But one could also turn your argument around and say: Chopin shortened the chords when he increased the speed of the piece, and then this becomes an argument for single-beat.
@@benjaminachron1493 I think you can't. In manuscript there are long double notes and tempo mark which is very fast. I can agree that the version we know today is playable in single beat. Very few cen perform it really well. But the legato he wants is reserved then only for the very big hands. I mean true finger legato, not phrasing effect of a big legato slures, or quasi legato articulation. But for example etude f minor op.10no9 with its repeated octaves is absurdly fast. Not possible to perform strict in single beat, and first - makes no musical sense. Where is the affectation of the short motives? The list of absurds of single beat tempos in Chopin's scores is pretty high.
@@mashoy78 as I said, the MM were added in a very late stage (of course, no composer needs MM to play his own piece) and the high(er) tempo might have led Chopin to reduce the quarter notes to sixteenths.... The repeated octaves in op 10 nr 9 should take time, just like a singer would declamate them, regardless of the tempo one takes. These 'fundamentalistic' approaches to MM completely disregard everything we know about contemporary performance praxis. Consequently they have very little value in the single- versus double-beat discussion. It is not very difficult to pull one small detail out of context and then say: 'aha, proof of double-beat'... Bernhard Ruchti wisely avoids these cherry-pickings.
@@maxxiongDear Max, I don't understand what do you mean when you say 'statemant'. I am just giving example to analyze for anyone who is interested in this topic. That is what I think about it. It is a just a thought of mine. Sorry but english is not my first language and I probably don't get all the subtleties of it. But getting back to the legato... I see Chopin very strict on this if you analyse his fingerings. He wants very often connecting sounds by fingers. So when he writes legato slurs, writes italian word "legato" and put fingerings that are meant to allow this task, should we take it seriously?
Often the response to these etudes at slower tempos is that they are etudes and meant to be played fast. But what makes us so sure that these etudes were written solely as technical exercises for pianists, and not as compositional studies in which Chopin explores motifs and musical elements - similar to a study in visual art? In fact Liszt wrote about Hiller etudes in that context: "...recall those studies of foliage, in which the landscape painter gives us an entire little poem of light and shade, with only a tree, one branch, a single 'motif', happily and boldly handled." In that context speed or dexterity is not the objective (at least not the main objective).
robertklein, I don’t know everything, but isn’t it the case that all MM’s for Chopin’s etudes are his own suggestions? In that case, it’s not right to criticize fast versions, because whole beat tempi is too slow. Logically, it is impossible to imagine a period, where whole beat tempi was the dominant one, as Wim Winters claims.
Super, this way the music makes sense and does not only serve the ego-demonstration of a want to be "virtuoso" musician. But this needs some real, musical virtuosity!
donadolfo, you reveal a lack of knowlegde, and it is sad that Bernhard Ruchti does not give you a deeper perspective. Man has always enjoyed competing. The Olympic Games have been around for almost 3000 years! The desire to compete also existed when Beethoven, Czerny, Chopin and Liszt were alive. But how did they compete? They compete on the keyboard! The keyboard was their sports arena! But no one was impressed by the slow tempi. The expressive music can be found in the slow movements. So in the fast movements, the composers/pianists showed their virtuoso level. You reveal a lack of knowlegde when you criticize that part of the human nature.
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 Maybe your "lack of knowledge" assessment of my comment is not the most polite and correct one... I agree with your description of the desire to compete and that it is part of human nature - more or less pronounced in different individuals, and mainly in their younger years. But, sorry, for me a lot of this is still "ego-demonstration", human nature or not. Interesting in this respect is e.g. the personal development of Liszt, moving away from fast-paced virtuosity in his youth to other virtues as he grew older and more mature. This development of personality can also be observed in many other styles of music and players.
donadolfo, thanks for a nice and interesting response to my comment. I would like to apologize for the wording «lack of knowlegde». Perhaps, as a non-English speaker, I am struggling to understand that for Englishmen it sounds harder than I would like? I am pleased to read your support tegarding the competitive human being. What you write about Liszt is certainly true. He lived quite a long time(1811-1886)and therefore managed to go through several different periodes. I mean the same thing happened to Bach when I take a closer look at some of his organ compositions. In his early years he was also interested in the virtuoso, and a number of organ pieces have a pedal solo. But look - in recent years, solos completely disappear. Just as with Liszt, there were other parts of the music that occupied him.
I would be interested to have your view about the RUclips video watch?v=tJK2IB0m42Y with 8 famous pianists all born in the 19th century interpreting the etude. Some of them had very strong connection to Chopin . Interpretation varies between 125 - 160 bpm . Cortot, in his famous book ,recommends 2mn.20s for the etude , here he plays it faster 2mn . In all cases this is way faster than a double beat interpretation . Don't you agree this is not necessarily supporting your approach? Please , note that I don't dislike the slow tempo here, I am just sceptical about its legitimacy.
Grossartig! At this tempo the influence of Bach's famous Prelude in C is obvious.
thank you!
@Elliott Blum Because no one plays Bach's prelude at that [ab]normal tempo.
@Elliott Blum Bernard Ruchti, Wim Winters and Alberto Sanna do--among others. Didn't you watch the video?
皆が憧れ、挫折してしまいやすいこの曲を、少し頑張れば弾けるテンポで表現豊かに演奏されてるのに感動しました！
この速さでも美しさが十分過ぎるほど伝わってきました。
ありがとうございます！
This tempo makes it very poetic and lyrical. I always was puzzled about all the big legato slurs written by Chopin. It looks like a little obsession of legato, considering single beat tempos which are not possible to render legato. This approach not only makes it possible but shows the pure beauty of this music. Thank you!
Thank you for your comment!
@@bernhardruchti I enjoy your work very much. Thank you
@@mashoy78 I am happy to hear that. I gather you're a pianist too?
@@bernhardruchti Yes, Bernhard, I am pianist and composer. You can listen to my music here, if you want
m.ruclips.net/video/KOOTKrG6Twc/видео.html
You make great work. I hope you will continue !
Exactly man!
This is the tempo I am able to play it, so it is really refreshing to hear an artistic interpretation of it! Thank you!
Wohoo....Go enter Chopin piano competition since now you think you can play this etude!
@@rothschildianum wohoo, no one said that I am able to play this etude well, I said this is the highest tempo I could play it at. why so toxic bro?
@@rothschildianum don't be a douche
@@szilike_10 Go reveling in your dream.
@@rothschildianum ??
Amazing. Belo! Bravo! 👏👏👏
Thank you so much!
Love this rendition!!
Always wanted to listen to slower tempo to be able to understand the piece better! Exactly what I was looking for!
Thank you so much!
This étude is like a volcano - each rising scale a new eruption. The use of the pedal, as requested by Chopin, is very subtle!
Thank you!
a great project. Such a delightful performance and for me who practise and study Chopin etudes, this is a great gem. thank you
I am pleased to hear this, thank you very much!
A tempo to enjoy the music and the richness of harmony. Not to frantically rushing through as if fleeing a mob which is after you. Thank you indeed.
Thank you!
Is really amazing and sublime your performance...
Thank you so much!
The harmony progression is so clever in this etude that even if you play it at slow speed and replace arpeggios with chords , it is still very beautiful. You would normally do that during practice sessions, but the sublime starts hen metronome is around 140bpm + when you get arpeggios played fast enough so they tend to sound like rolled chords with a lot of harmonics blended together and when you also get the effect of the fast transition between the last note of the descending sequences, played with a light accent and the following left hand bass note which is the effect that transcended Martha Argerich's version and got her the 1st place in the 65 competition . As much as I like op 10 1 even at slow speed, we lose these effects and the true magical spirit that makes this etude unique. Having said that you play it very well and I am sure you would make it sound ever better should you play it at faster tempo.
Thank you for your comment, I appreciate it.
Wonderful! I never really liked Chopin very much, but at this tempo I can enjoy this music like never before, it all makes sense. And your musicality also makes it possible. Great production too. Thank you!
Thank you very much!
how do you not like chopin ;(
@@RUclipsChannel-nf2nw I prefer Schumann.
The more I hear this, the more that it's the correct tempo becomes apparent. There's so much going on in the right hand that can't be easily heard (or played) at the traditionally modern tempos.
Thank you for your comment. Indeed there's a richness to this etude that is amazing...
Thank you for the music.
You're welcome!
Thank you, Maestro! You have saved the nobility of Chopin's music from drowning under a thundering cascade of notes.
Those thundering cascades of notes were written by him.
Concerning this Etude, Chopin's pupil, Friederike Müller-Streicher (1816-1895), quotes Chopin:
You shall benefit from this Etude. If you learn it according to my instructions it will expand your hand and enable you to perform arpeggios like strokes of the [violin] bow. Unfortunately, instead of teaching, it frequently un-teaches everything.
When Chopin met the virtuoso violinist Josef Slavík in Vienna (1830), he wrote : “Apart from Paganini, I have never heard anything comparable, ninety-six staccati with one stroke of the bow: incredible!"
So Chopin's metronome marking, given in the original sources (MM 176 referring to quarter notes) is certainly to be taken in single beat rather than in double beat.
And what's more, the pianos back then were quite different from those today. Shorter sound and lightness of touch which allowed and required faster tempi.
Now, of course this rendition (in double beat? a little faster than Win Winters) is beautiful, and Chopin's music is so genius than it can stand different tempi, but I do not think it is fair to consider it as what Chopin intended.
Thank you for your appreciation and for your interest. I was wondering what made you conclude from the Müller-Streicher quote that Chopin's metronome markings must be intended as single-beat?
@@bernhardruchti Well, it is more the combination of the two quotes which makes me think that Chopin asked for very fast arpeggios for this study. It is clear also that Chopin was very impressed by Paganini's virtuosity and Josef Slavik's one (he composed his Etudes at the same time or shortly after that), and to play those arpeggios in double beat is not enough difficult for a virtuoso pianist. So Chopin's metrononome markings seem for me more logical in single beat.
@@rigel48 I see the pro's and con's for double-beat on a much more fundamental level. I don't know if you've watched my introduction to historical metronome markings? There I am displaying the limited likelihood of double-beat counting and the reason why I stick to the option nevertheless. ruclips.net/p/PLmyAMFyZ8tYlj8cXOLa7-nbJ-_BBG3EXN
The two quotes you brought forward don't necessarily say anything about the chosen tempo, in my opinion. Musically speaking, the characterization Chopin gives is perfectly applicable to my version. This etude expands the hand and teaches to execute smooth and regular arpeggios. And from personal experience I can say that while the piece gets easier in terms of quickness, at the same time it gets significantly harder in terms of articulation and phrasing...
So I would say that the aspects that speak for or against a double-beat rendition are not to be looked for in quotes like that but on the fundamental level of whether or not this option is likely in the historical context.
@@bernhardruchti Yes I have watched your videos "historical metronome markings" and those on Beethoven, Schumann, and Liszt, and your arguments for double-beat are quite relevant (and I would add that your Schumann Fantasy in double beat is extraordinarily beautiful).
When Chopin says "enable you to perform arpeggios like strokes of the [violin] bow", do you think he is speaking of the 4 notes of each arpeggio or the whole run of arpeggios from bottom to top of the keyboard (and then from top to bottom) ? Paganini's caprice 5 seems to favour the second option, and so a very fast tempo. But of course this is pure assumption.
I would also add that you play on a beautiful Steinway with sumptuous basses that allow you a left hand legato which, in my opinion, would be much more difficult to achieve on a period instrument at this tempo.
@@bernhardruchti By the way, it would be interesting to know why you decided to play this étude in double beat. For Beethoven and Schumann you made videos to explain your choice of tempi, why not for Chopin ?
If I compare the first étude with the fourth (op 10), they are both in 4/4 time with same number of semiquavers per bar, but the first has for metronome marking : crotchet = 176 and the fourth has minim = 88. Which is for me the same tempo, but why not to use the same MM for both études? Has the first to be taken in whole beat and the fourth in half beat ? Also the first is Allegro and the fourth is Presto. Or is it the melodic line at the left hand that justified the Allegro for the first étude (if played in single beat) ?
It’s more beautiful (and playable) in this speed, i never really liked the crazy speed most famous pianists play it with. This speed gives me hope i am studying it. Very wonderful in all ways👌🏼thank you Bernard🙏🏼
You're very welcome. Thank you for your comment.
In Chopin music, You, Pachmann, and AuthenticSound are the best player of this piece.
Bravo! 👏
Thank you!
Muito bom, muitas pessoas tocam isso mais rápido que a mão, e esbarra mais que qualquer coisa. Parabéns por mostrar outro jeito de interpretação.
Thank you so much, I really appreciate it!
Well done. At that tempo one can hear some nice things, harmonic movement especially. Saying that I feel it should go a bit quicker (not the crazy presto speeds we often hear!) but I tend to feel it IS after all an etude that should push one technically, which is why Chopin wrote them. It might be even more interesting to hear you play a tad faster version that would give it it's 'brilliance' which I feel Chopin is asking for. Would be nice to compare the two versions? Only my opinion of course but well done regardless
Thank you for commenting. It's a more "lyrical" virtuosity in that tempo. And it's still challenging from a technical point of view to play it that way...
This etude #1 op.10 is my favorite piece. I’m really happy to listen to this piece today. Nowadays the bass’ notes of Chopin’s works are played too strong like explosion sounds. I don’t like their insensitivity very much. However, this Chopin’s sound appears wavelike in a lake where melodies exist with the bass notes of the suitable volume the harmony of Chopin requires, and with less sentimental feelings.
Thank you very much!
Because I am banned from AuthenticSound’s channel, I have to borrow space from others. I don’t like it, but because I think I sometimes have some smart to say, I can’t stop.
The «fight» between WBMPs and single beaters lives like just that. Some of us on the single beat side argue that the music sounds terrible in WBMP tempi. I agree whit that, but it is not a good argument in the debate, because a lot of people say they like WBMP-tempi mich better. So how to continue the discussion?
I believe more in arguing woth logic. Personally, I think that the many videos here on RUclips of children playing the well-known classical pieces much faster than WBMP are a good argument against the WBMP theory. What about Chopin’s etudes? Listen to Haochen Zhang, 11 years old, performing the entire opus 10! Listen to his version of no 2. Afterwards, we compare it with Wim Winters’ version. Chopin was 19-20 years old when he composed opus 10. it is illogical for a child(mutiple children)to play Chopin’s etudes much faster than WBMP, when we know that Chopin himself had 8-10 more years to reach a virtuoso level. It is completely illogical.
I’m happy to see that Bernhard Ruchti doesn’t write «in Real Historical Tempo» or «in Chopin’s Original Tempo» the way Wim Winters do.
I am also familiar with Bernhard Ruchti’s line, quote: «In the end, the question how likely it is that double-beat counting was applied, is not that difficult to answer. The option for double -beat shows in the historical context, but its likelihood is limited, mainly due to the fact that no one ever raised such a question in the 19th century.»
Simply wonderful. Thank you so much!
Thank you!
I have a question for Mr Ruchti, but also for some others. A question, not an attack :).
Many believe that Bach's influence on Chopin can be seen in this study, and playing it in double-beat makes this more obvious. Fine, I can live with that.
However, there is another piece where the Bach-influence is at least as clear in my opinion.
The first piano sonata (op. 4) starts with a Bachian texture which resembles the second invention. Chopins MM is halve 72 (Allegro Maestoso), since the theme is given in eights, this gives a tempo that is not unreasonable for a modern Bach performance. (Caveat: Bach writes sixteents, so that would be quarter 72).
So my two questions:
Do you think this should be double-beat also?
And if not: why not here and yes in op. 10? How could a contemporary of Chopin know how he had to interpret the metronome?
Thank you for your reply.
Thank you for your comment. I know about the connection made between this study and Bach’s famous first Prelude from the Well-tempered Clavier. However I am not entirely convinced how strong it actually is. Obviously the two pieces are in the same key and show broken chords. But other than that they are quite different regarding attitude and character ("Affect"), aren't they? Also, they are not related in terms of tempo, in my eyes.
As for Opus 4, I will need to look more closely into it. I have not played the piece myself, and in order to estimate the likelihood of double-beat I would need to give it some time to come up with an appropriate answer to your question. It’s an interesting question since the time of the composition is close to Opus 10. Hopefully I will find some time in the near future!
@@bernhardruchti thank you for your reply. I was never very convinced by the link either, although I can imagine a young Chopin trying to play Bachs prelude with just his right hand and by moving this over the keyboard 'bumping into' the figuration he uses eventually.... could be just my imagination.
But IF one accepts the link as an argument for double-beat (not saying you do) one should accept the other way around also.
Best, and looking forward to what you might come up with.
Benjamin, I am sorry for my inadequate English. I am so happy that someone mention opus 4; Chopin was only 17 years old at the time. Are you familiar to Wolfgang Weller’s version of the 1st sonata? The final movement: «presto». Weller’s presto in whole beat is….is just a tragedy, and tells me that something has to be wrong whit Willem Talsma’s theory.
Wonderful sound, Bernhard, I love it. Very extraordinary base sound!
Thank you so much, Esther!!
What is very interesting it is one of the first versions of the second etude from op.10, in a minor. Chopin wrote quarter notes not sixteens in the lower part of the right hand. And tempo mark was, if I remember correctly, half note equals 69. I think maybe for the hand of Rachmaninoff it would be possible to play like this in such a fast tempo, not for sure not for Chopin's hand. When he saw once Thalberg playing, he wrote in one of his letters '...he plays decimes like I play octaves'. It looks like he really used the metronome like a pendulum, in the would beat. In single beat there is to many absurds in his scores. I think his Nocturnes are very good example. Many of them are played in double beat well below the single beat tempo.
You can compare all available sources here...: www.chopinonline.ac.uk/ocve/browse/
But one could also turn your argument around and say: Chopin shortened the chords when he increased the speed of the piece, and then this becomes an argument for single-beat.
@@benjaminachron1493 I think you can't. In manuscript there are long double notes and tempo mark which is very fast. I can agree that the version we know today is playable in single beat. Very few cen perform it really well. But the legato he wants is reserved then only for the very big hands. I mean true finger legato, not phrasing effect of a big legato slures, or quasi legato articulation. But for example etude f minor op.10no9 with its repeated octaves is absurdly fast. Not possible to perform strict in single beat, and first - makes no musical sense. Where is the affectation of the short motives? The list of absurds of single beat tempos in Chopin's scores is pretty high.
@@mashoy78 as I said, the MM were added in a very late stage (of course, no composer needs MM to play his own piece) and the high(er) tempo might have led Chopin to reduce the quarter notes to sixteenths....
The repeated octaves in op 10 nr 9 should take time, just like a singer would declamate them, regardless of the tempo one takes.
These 'fundamentalistic' approaches to MM completely disregard everything we know about contemporary performance praxis. Consequently they have very little value in the single- versus double-beat discussion. It is not very difficult to pull one small detail out of context and then say: 'aha, proof of double-beat'...
Bernhard Ruchti wisely avoids these cherry-pickings.
@@mashoy78 "true finger legato" is there any proof for this statement?
@@maxxiongDear Max, I don't understand what do you mean when you say 'statemant'. I am just giving example to analyze for anyone who is interested in this topic. That is what I think about it. It is a just a thought of mine. Sorry but english is not my first language and I probably don't get all the subtleties of it. But getting back to the legato... I see Chopin very strict on this if you analyse his fingerings. He wants very often connecting sounds by fingers. So when he writes legato slurs, writes italian word "legato" and put fingerings that are meant to allow this task, should we take it seriously?
Often the response to these etudes at slower tempos is that they are etudes and meant to be played fast. But what makes us so sure that these etudes were written solely as technical exercises for pianists, and not as compositional studies in which Chopin explores motifs and musical elements - similar to a study in visual art? In fact Liszt wrote about Hiller etudes in that context: "...recall those studies of foliage, in which the landscape painter gives us an entire little poem of light and shade, with only a tree, one branch, a single 'motif', happily and boldly handled." In that context speed or dexterity is not the objective (at least not the main objective).
robertklein, I don’t know everything, but isn’t it the case that all MM’s for Chopin’s etudes are his own suggestions? In that case, it’s not right to criticize fast versions, because whole beat tempi is too slow. Logically, it is impossible to imagine a period, where whole beat tempi was the dominant one, as Wim Winters claims.
Super, this way the music makes sense and does not only serve the ego-demonstration of a want to be "virtuoso" musician. But this needs some real, musical virtuosity!
Thank you very much, Don Adolfo, I really appreciate it!
donadolfo, you reveal a lack of knowlegde, and it is sad that Bernhard Ruchti does not give you a deeper perspective. Man has always enjoyed competing. The Olympic Games have been around for almost 3000 years! The desire to compete also existed when Beethoven, Czerny, Chopin and Liszt were alive. But how did they compete? They compete on the keyboard! The keyboard was their sports arena! But no one was impressed by the slow tempi. The expressive music can be found in the slow movements. So in the fast movements, the composers/pianists showed their virtuoso level. You reveal a lack of knowlegde when you criticize that part of the human nature.
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 Maybe your "lack of knowledge" assessment of my comment is not the most polite and correct one...
I agree with your description of the desire to compete and that it is part of human nature - more or less pronounced in different individuals, and mainly in their younger years. But, sorry, for me a lot of this is still "ego-demonstration", human nature or not. Interesting in this respect is e.g. the personal development of Liszt, moving away from fast-paced virtuosity in his youth to other virtues as he grew older and more mature. This development of personality can also be observed in many other styles of music and players.
donadolfo, thanks for a nice and interesting response to my comment. I would like to apologize for the wording «lack of knowlegde». Perhaps, as a non-English speaker, I am struggling to understand that for Englishmen it sounds harder than I would like? I am pleased to read your support tegarding the competitive human being. What you write about Liszt is certainly true. He lived quite a long time(1811-1886)and therefore managed to go through several different periodes. I mean the same thing happened to Bach when I take a closer look at some of his organ compositions. In his early years he was also interested in the virtuoso, and a number of organ pieces have a pedal solo. But look - in recent years, solos completely disappear. Just as with Liszt, there were other parts of the music that occupied him.
I would be interested to have your view about the RUclips video watch?v=tJK2IB0m42Y with 8 famous pianists all born in the 19th century interpreting the etude. Some of them had very strong connection to Chopin . Interpretation varies between 125 - 160 bpm . Cortot, in his famous book ,recommends 2mn.20s for the etude , here he plays it faster 2mn . In all cases this is way faster than a double beat interpretation . Don't you agree this is not necessarily supporting your approach? Please , note that I don't dislike the slow tempo here, I am just sceptical about its legitimacy.
Beautiful. The proper tempos. All the super virtuosos are wasting their time
Is this what Chopin's pupils learned?
I completely thought all modern version we playing nowadays is his own originals
I absolutely love this tempo , immediately brung tears to my ears I love your playing
Thank you so much
@Elliott Blum hahahahaha true that
that's it! let's change the music!! :-))
No musical content whatsoever, just a bunch of notes without any meaning or thoughts!!!
Furchtbar! Bitte keine Pianisten mit sinnlosen Übetempi auf RUclips!