Give Dr. Eric Cline your feedback! What do you hope to see in After 1177 BC? Support him and his work by checking out the links above in the video description from his books to his lectures! Check out the links below to support this channel! Get your face mask today! spqr-emporium.com/collections/face-masks?aff=3 Enjoy history merchandise? Check out affiliate link to SPQR Emporium! spqr-emporium.com?aff=3 To support the channel, become a Patron and make history matter! Patreon: www.patreon.com/The_Study_of_Antiquity_and_the_Middle_Ages Donate directly to PayPal: paypal.me/NickBarksdale *Dislaimer, the link above is an affiliate link which means we will earn a generous commission from your magnificent purchase, just another way to help out the channel! Join our community! Facebook Page: facebook.com/THESTUDYOFANTIQUITYANDTHEMIDDLEAGES/ Twitter: twitter.com/NickBarksdale Instagram: instagram.com/study_of_antiquity_middle_ages/ Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/164050034145170/
This is so exciting! I love learning about this era of history but many of the books that I've found so far have been incredibly expensive, out of date, or both. Personally, I'm very interested in Cyprus so I'm glad to hear that it will make an appearance!
Look for my separate comment above (or below), I try to make a quick synthesis of my understanding of the period (frustrated that he says nothing specific).
I really like the idea of a chronological order for the new book, it will help keep the information in mind, and also it'll make for a good reference book going forwards. 👍
Looking forward the the publication. One of the questions I have about the Late Bronze Age, including the decline and apparent fall of the Minoans, is the effect these civilizations had on the landscapes, especially what must have been a nearly insatiable demand for ship and structure building timber. The "Greek Dark Age" lasted about the length of time it takes to grow forests of large trees.
Writing this era in a chronological order, region by region, is very important when dealing with a 400 year time span. Imagine writing a history of Europe 1600-2000 without doing it in chronological order, region by region..
Dr. Cline, while my own field is not archeology, it can encompass, the entirety of human experience and history. I am a theater professional of over forty years experience and have taught at the undergraduate and post graduate level. My approach during the undergraduate introductory address usually followed this tome. “ I have often been asked ,” What do I need to Know to be an actor”? My only proper response is, everything in the world, as you may never know what you may be asked to portray.” While primarily taught the technical aspects of theater, I also integrated in what I call technical acting. That is that within every text, there is a psychological history concerning the six questions that need to be answered for proper comprehension. The Who, Where What, When, Why and How.. This approach allowed me to help students in a full understanding not only of theater, which is the active reflection of a society, but in how societies as a whole interact to create history. When resources are integrated, the psychological implications that create specific actions become more understandable, wether it be two thousand years ago or today.
I can't wait! I'd love to hear more about what happened to the sea peoples after the collapse of the Bronze Age. Hopefully there will be room among the numerous "neo" restorations to cover. Authors commenting on the origin of the sea peoples often say tantalizing things like, "Maybe this is a reference to Sardinia, but even so we don't know if they're called this because they came from Sardinia or that's where they went afterward." It always makes me wonder at what details in the history cause them to add that. Was something going on in Sardinia after 1177? Sardinia itself seems like such an interesting case. What must it have been like to sit on the sidelines and watch as their early farmer culture that had expanded for 4,000 years on the continent was replaced by a new culture from the east, including peoples who went on to form major powers of the bronze age (Hittites, Greeks, Minoans?) I wonder what the bronze age meant to the people of Sardinia. If Sardinia was part of the sea peoples, did they see many of the era like a wave of gentrifiers throwing up Starbucks on every corner to make a buck? Did waves of sea peoples immigrants from Sardinia see their adventures as striking a blow for the old Neolithic? :) Anyway, I'm excited to read more about after 1177. My vote would be, more about the Philistines and what's up, Sardinia. I know the written record makes it easier to talk about people with empires than people without them, but I am drawn to these stories about the less visible. Thanks for doing this interview!
I'd love to read about how he suits the giants and Baityloi of Mont'e Prama into his timeline. Some say they were already made around 1200 - and they would be pirate-kings but during the geometric time there were made bronze figurines in their fashion like souvenir-takeaways for some centuries and last the large ones were smashed... what might have happened and why? Have they got to do something with the Phoenician colonization of / or their return to Sardinia?
Can’t wait! Just finished the first one after months on my bookshelf. So glad that he’s doing a sequel. Another resource to use for my own book on the rise and fall of civilizations!
Would love more focus on the Luwian region between the Greeks and Hittites! Especially what we may know about their contributions to classical Greek culture
I look forward to reading "After 1177." I agree that a chronological format would be good to show the interconnections. Hopefully our civilization won't collapse before the book gets published.
A set of parallel timelines showing at a glance what was happening globally across the spectrum, in chronological order, simply identifying events by one or two sentences and referring the text where you explain in depth... in tandem with the specific geographic locales where you talk about a specific people from beginning to end, perhaps with parenthetical notes to refer to an important event elsewhere ... chapters on each "empire" through time, in parallel vertically in chronological order, ... together with a simplified horizontal timeline showing briefly what's happening around the world, decade by decade, in the best detail you have, but only giving a page number for more clarification spelled out in the text. I'm rambling, but I think you've got the idea. For example, I'd like to read about Egypt, but with notes saying something important happened in Assyria here, and later, another about Greece... but now back to the story of Egypt until... And with all the "notes" laid out in a long timeline tying them all together. Do you think that would work?
Nick and Eric, can I take this opportunity to request a mash up that I've wanted for a few years now? After reading "1177" I read the book 'Why Nations Fail" by Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson and I keep wondering how their ideas would apply to the Bronze Age and the following Iron Age nations rising out of the collapse. I want you all to come together for a discussion. Do their ideas break down when you go too far back in civilization? Are there universal truths regarding stable successful nation building? Maybe nations and international trade and how to build these successfully as so different in different epochs that it is like trying to reconcile quantum physics and astrophysics. Eric, you did such a great job of considering the different influences and influencers of the Bronze Age collapse, could we have a discussion / incites on inclusive versus extractive institutions in the Bronze Age or the early Iron Age? Could we have a few case studies from the Bronze Age like we have in "Why Nations Fail"? While the vast majority of people seemed to be the serfs / slaves / peasants under the monarch, even the lowliest seemed to have a cottage industry on the side that the government was not constantly interfering in, such as weaving. Karen says that Assyria gave people a way to opt out of being a citizen and paying taxes while continuing to live in the area of the kingdom. If we could get a follow-up book on the subject that would be even more awesome. Thank you so much for your time.
I criticized your channel a few months back - perhaps unfairly (probably having a bad day etc). But I have really enjoyed the Dr Cline series - so thanks for putting them out. I learnt a lot with each one. Your channel is really coming along these days - notice the production values have gone up and love the new style introductions too.
Using an integrated approach in this work will make it more comprehensive than individual case studies, as the interplay between the rising factions will become more understandable to your readers.
I actually wonder if I would find a civilization approach more engaging and instructive , where Dr. Cline would review each thru the 400-500 years of rebuilding and then compare. Especially since each rose so differently. Either way I welcome and await the book eagerly.
'Rebuilding' civilization sounds better to my ears, because 'rebuilding' something from 'the ashes' needs an active 'want' of the people /- at least their leaders involved, birthing is something that happens to somebody. And all the colonizing and city-building has a very active feeling about it. There's many books that do single people or single regions/cities and I'd like to see how they interacted and influenced each other down the timeline. I'd find it very difficult to find a reason to stop at 700 and not... say 500, but if the emphasis is about the rising and the beginning, and the foundation of the first colonies 700 is probably ok.
'Rebuilding' may sound better; more progressive, but I think the term 'rebirth' is more appropriate. I don't think there was an active 'want' of people or leaders to make their world better for humanity. Rather, for purely survival & self-interest reasons to have more food on the table and more wealth. So, rather than a grand scheme to make the world better, I think it was more natural, incremental changes that the average person had little control over. So inevitably, from the ashes, the world evolved to situations that people found themselves in. Hence, a rebirth.
Yes. It's your approach will be interesting for the readers. As one Russian writer used to say that we are studying history of different states as we are sailing parallel rivers which never crossing.
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This is a very important and intriguing subject, Thank you for talking about it. I really want to know how the Assyrians got back up on their feet and did what they did after the Bronze age collapse. Also what happened in Greece, Italy and North Africa in that period.
Aiming for a general view seems better, imo, in this world of specialisation, we need the broad picture. Humanistic studies is in part about connecting what we see segregated in our mind.
@@jongillin327 Planning to mention something, yes, though traditional founding of Rome in 753 BC will fall just outside the range of the book if I only take it to 776 BC...if so, would add least mention it in the section on "looking ahead" at the end of the book...
Yeah 800 or 700 BCE is where the dark ages begin to fade. But IMO classical antiquity only consolidates in the 6th century BCE, when the Phoencians destroyed Tartessos and after the Iberians kicked the Celts out from Catalonia and Languedoc (probably with Greek help). 600 BCE is the foundation of Marseilles and in that century we still have a Phocaean (Marseillese?) narrative of Tartessos in which the King of that semi-legendary country asks them to stay in his court and when, they reply they can't, he gives them a massive amount of silver to help the reinforcement of the walls of Phocaea, because he had been told that the Lydians were threatening them (they conquered Phocaea soon afterwards and the Phoenicians probably destroyed Tartessos around that very same date, which is around 550 BCE).
Thus maybe "Before Cyrus the Great" because Lydia itself was conquered by this Persian king in 546 BCE. Afterwards it is clearly the full classical era.
I have read somewhere that in Buddhist Philosophy they write history not from dates but from what they learn. I believe if in after 1177 BC, Dr. Eric Cline can move book not based on facts but based on what we can learn it would be phenomenon. Like how in 1918 Meggito was invaded again based on ideas of 15 century BCE invasion. If that is not possible, he can go chronologically and at end or mid of chapter give some important things which we should learn and observe. That would be like a Easter egg.
(To Dr. Cline): are you planning on discussing the Philistines and their link to the Achaeans? Because it has more or less been confirmed that the Phillistines were a mixture of Greeks and Minoans who were affiliated with the Sea Peoples. Additionally, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the thematic links between the Homeric Epics and the Books of Judges and Kings. The Phillistines are described in much the same way as the Achaeans are. And “Goliath” fits the “Hero” archetype almost perfectly. People like Durant characterize the Achaeans as a dark age people (that is probably because “Homer” had Greek society reflect how it was in his time). But what if they, and the sea peoples as a whole, were not, in fact, Barbarians, but a seafaring imperial army attempting to construct a Toynbean “universal state”? Just some thoughts I had, and ones that I am discussing in my own book (a generalist study of history focusing on the philosophical examination of various world cultures, synthesizing the systemic/empirical model and the morphological model of cultural development). Your work has been a major help to the development of my own book, and it would be really fantastic (and useful 🤣) to hear thoughts on such topics from a trained historian.
It might be interesting todo see what happened (after 1177) with peoples in the Caspian Sea. Also, I wonder if it is possible to find out something about the fate of descendants of hitite royalty. Any great, great grandson or daughter of Puduhepa going around? What about their knowledge? What happened to the hurrites in her home town? Another question I have is who, when, where and how steel production started and developed. I will be looking forward your findings. Good luck.
I feel the world could use a book on what was going on at the same time across countries. Typically a book, video, class focuses on 1 place / people at a time and you never quite understand how they all fit together. To use much more recent examples from my own life where it was hard for me to reconcile concurrent events in different places, reading the Brontes with all the social rules and class distinctions in England and then reading Poe where people just get on with life (or not) I was surprised to find that the works were all written in the same time. The freedom in the US was really striking. Then there is the Chinese Cultural Revolution. All the horror stories I've heard. Surely it took place back in the 1910s, 20s or 30s - some darker age with more limited international flights and media reporting where a nation could have a chance of getting away with such atrocities. I was really shocked to learn that the Cultural Revolution was happening the same time as Woodstock, the Beatles and the evoluation of disco. That just doesn't compute. So, if we (some of us) still can't get our heads around more current events happening at the same time in different countries, we probably could really use some help with the post-Bronze Age collapse landscape and players as well. Whatever you write, I will obviously find room for it on my bookshelf next to your other books.
Interesting interview. When studying ancient Near East history, is it best to start from the beginning with the Canaanites, Israelites, Egyptians, Hittites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Aramaeans, etc.?
I'm particularly curious about what happened i Egypt in that time. I know it survived the Late Bronze Age Collapse but was crippled and did not recover. Standard Egyptian history seems to consist of "Pyramids, weird gods, and Boom! Alexander takes over. A little bit on fill in the blank for that 800 years or so would be nice.
I would love to read about parallels to modern times, and your considered extrapolation re suggestions for modern families/communities to weather current times.
I’d love to see India brought into this for its first philosophical teaching crossing the divide the impact on the learned of the day in the area of the world your work is upon I do believe a lot of the beliefs then stem from there as they seemed to have been the pioneers of many gods and Demi gods as well as a higher understanding in tandem with this of an Absolute truth stemming into different branches of the One and the Many and how these teaching progressed across the world by word of mouth and transferred itself to different Gods and mother worship from matriarchal to patriarchy in the corse of time ....but maybe thats another book in itself,,,
New book Sounds great! I really cannot understand how the Greeks adopted the phoeonician alphabet. Homer did not think high of Phoenicians, he concidered them as troglodytes. And they came up with an alphabet of their own?
The way i find out bronze age collapse was by counting my Ancaster 4,8,16... we are 8.5 billion people to get that number you need to go back 3200 years / 1200bc so i checked what happened that time and yep itbmakes sense now we restarted are civilization again and looks like we will do it again 😀
But he doesn't say anything, does he? He rants a lot but he does not explain what happened after 1177. IMO, in Greece there was a big "after the looting" party (and some reckoning), which is very generically reflected in the Odissey: skip all the travel and adventure part: he reckons he was stranded in Egypt for seven years, all the rest is a remake of "Jason and the Argonauts" but his stranding in Egypt ("Cretan lie") and the dispute for his wife/throne is probably suggestive of what was going on after the looting of Asia Minor, Cyprus and Syria in the leading country of the looters: Greece. Then, c. 1300 there is a dynastic conflict (Heraklidae) that results in the collapse of Mycenae and the decay of civilized life in general but without a clear break, not yet. Only c. 1060 there is a strong break and should be related to what happens in Egypt at the same time: partial conquest by the Meswesh (Amazigh or Berbers). This last LBA obscure episode, which razed or severely damaged all Greek cities save Athens seems to be reflected in the Atlantis "legend" (not really a legend proper, but oral history anyhow per Plato). In Anatolia what happens is Phrygia, whose origin is surrounded in legend and seems strongly related by origin to that of Macedonians (Mushki = Makedon, Phryges = Bryges) and by later events to that of Armenians. All this is based on what Herodotus, who was native from Asia Minor, tells us, but linguistics, archaeology and genetics do not disagree, rather the opposite. Later there was a recomposition of native Anatolians as Lydia (neo-Luwians) but that's already rather well known history. It is a bit obscure how the Phrygians conquered Armenia (formerly pre-Indoeuropean Urartu) but probably it happened with Median support. The Levant and Egypt are better known, there's some darkness re. Palestine, but almost certainly, the Hebrews displaced the late and decadent Egyptian rule, including the conquest of their Sherden and Tjekker vassals in the region (but not of the Peleset-Philistines). The rise of Phoenicians is also a bit obscure but they are clearly native Canaanites that remained loyal to their traditional polytheistic beliefs (there's El, as in Judaism, but also other gods, which in Judaism have been erased) and it's clear that at some point they exploited the vacuum of trading power left by collapsed Greece and replaced them with a clear goal in mind: Iberia (Carthage and Gadir were founded in quick succession) and its fabled (and very real) mineral wealth. More interesting to me is Italy, where the LBA presents us with what should be identified as a major Indoeuropean invasion (Italo-Celts, mostly early Italics) with Urnfields culture (known in Italy as proto-Villanovan). There's also an Urnfields branch leading to NE Iberia (both surrounded the Ligures against the Western Alps and isolated them from other Vasconic peoples except by sea) and precursor of Iberian Celts. However IMO as we approach the Iron Age two other peoples, well known Sea Peoples to be precise: the Teresh (Tyrsenoi or Tauresi) and the Shekelesh (some type of Semites, maybe Canaanite mercenaries based on name and genetic trail) also got somehow involved in Italy, where they eventually carved two niches: the Teresh in Central and parts of North Italy (Etruscans, Villanova culture) and the Shekelesh in most of Sicily, to which they give name (and where Lebanon-like genetics are surprisingly strong, having no other possible explanation than LBA/EIA migration from the Levant, i.e. Shekelesh > Siculi & Sicels). Meanwhile in Sardinia we see an increase of Neolithic 1 type genetics (EEF, Ötzi-like), which proabably represents large influx of Italian refugees, either as invasion or peacefully. Fossil linguistics strongly support Sardinia speaking a Basque-like (Vasconic) language until Romanization (cf. J.M. Elexpuru 2017). Iberia is also somewhat interesting because we also see collapse there but it happens in two phases: (1) the El Argar civilization, which was probably a centralized kingdom and had intense trade and cultural exchange with Mycenaean Greece (and should be somehow associated with the legends of Hercules in the Far West or Hesperia, from which Hispania surely), collapsed around 1300 BCE and did so in violent manner (fires). The surviving towns formed the "post-Argarian culture" which was probably a bunch of city-states and that leads almost directly to the latter Iberians of early history (Iberian culture, Iron Age). The other major Iberian civilization (Vilanova de São Pedro, VNSP, culture or Castro do Zambujal for its major town, still poorly researched) only collapsed later around 1100 or 1000 BCE and did so in direct relation with the sudden silting (tsunami surely) of the 10 km "marine branch" that linked it to the Ocean. In my interpretation it is this civilization which should be seen as Atlantis, because way too many details (not everything but a lot) fit with Plato's narration. I mentioned the intrusive arrival of Urnfields culture (Italo-Celts or early Celts) above, occupying Languedoc and Catalonia for at least half a millenium and expanding from them in Western direction (upstream the Ebro river, later, already inthe Iron Age, into the Plateau and the Western coast). However, coincident with the arrival of classical Greeks (Marseille and other sites) c. 590 they are displaced by the Iberians, thus Iberia's Celts (or Italo-Celts, some say Lusitanians were not Celts but "Italoids") were cut off from their continental brethren early on, before the classical Celtic culture of Le Tène and its major expansions to most of Gaul, Britain, etc. took place. That's why in most interpretations Celtiberian is very upstream in the Celtic linguistic tree: not because Iberia is the source but because they are an old isolated branch. Otherwise in the Atlantic basin there was a very late Bronze Age all the way to c. 800 BCE, with extensive trade connections that reach to Denmark on one extreme and to Cyprus in the other, probably via Sicily (where Elymnians may have been an Iberian colony of some sort, obscure). This Mediterranean trade connection of Atlantic Late Bronze (Early Iron Age for the rest of the region already) may have been the thread that Phoenicians traders and settlers followed to forge their colonial empire.
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I like the idea of showing what happened in different places at the same time.
I agree with that, but probably like a football game where you need to see the individual plays to understand what actually happened and why.
Great guest, and looking forward to Dr. Cline"s book. I might have to check out his audio book too.
This is so exciting! I love learning about this era of history but many of the books that I've found so far have been incredibly expensive, out of date, or both. Personally, I'm very interested in Cyprus so I'm glad to hear that it will make an appearance!
A chronological approach with an emphasis on what particular issues each region was facing in a given century would be interesting to me.
Look for my separate comment above (or below), I try to make a quick synthesis of my understanding of the period (frustrated that he says nothing specific).
Yay!!!! Dr. Cline again. I gotta get his books. This is waaaaayyyyyy fascinating.
I really like the idea of a chronological order for the new book, it will help keep the information in mind, and also it'll make for a good reference book going forwards. 👍
Looking forward the the publication.
One of the questions I have about the Late Bronze Age, including the decline and apparent fall of the Minoans, is the effect these civilizations had on the landscapes, especially what must have been a nearly insatiable demand for ship and structure building timber.
The "Greek Dark Age" lasted about the length of time it takes to grow forests of large trees.
Yes, showing the interconnection would be just great and the best way, my humble opinion. Just love him
Writing this era in a chronological order, region by region, is very important when dealing with a 400 year time span. Imagine writing a history of Europe 1600-2000 without doing it in chronological order, region by region..
And doing it again and again, region by region. Kind of hard to consider all the regions at once.
I really enjoy this series by Dr Cline. Thanks
Looking forward to a new book. Looking forward to learn more about Phoenicians.
Dr. Cline, while my own field is not archeology, it can encompass, the entirety of human experience and history.
I am a theater professional of over forty years experience and have taught at the undergraduate and post graduate level.
My approach during the undergraduate introductory address usually followed this tome. “ I have often been asked ,” What do I need to Know to be an actor”? My only proper response is, everything in the world, as you may never know what you may be asked to portray.” While primarily taught the technical aspects of theater, I also integrated in what I call technical acting. That is that within every text, there is a psychological history concerning the six questions that need to be answered for proper comprehension. The Who, Where What, When, Why and How..
This approach allowed me to help students in a full understanding not only of theater, which is the active reflection of a society, but in how societies as a whole interact to create history. When resources are integrated, the psychological implications that create specific actions become more understandable, wether it be two thousand years ago or today.
I wish I had a teacher like you!
I am so getting this book for Christmas.....
I’m in for two more Doc. “After after”... is fine. I’ll buy it even if you call it “3”. It’s the author and content that counts.
I can't wait! I'd love to hear more about what happened to the sea peoples after the collapse of the Bronze Age. Hopefully there will be room among the numerous "neo" restorations to cover.
Authors commenting on the origin of the sea peoples often say tantalizing things like, "Maybe this is a reference to Sardinia, but even so we don't know if they're called this because they came from Sardinia or that's where they went afterward." It always makes me wonder at what details in the history cause them to add that. Was something going on in Sardinia after 1177?
Sardinia itself seems like such an interesting case. What must it have been like to sit on the sidelines and watch as their early farmer culture that had expanded for 4,000 years on the continent was replaced by a new culture from the east, including peoples who went on to form major powers of the bronze age (Hittites, Greeks, Minoans?)
I wonder what the bronze age meant to the people of Sardinia. If Sardinia was part of the sea peoples, did they see many of the era like a wave of gentrifiers throwing up Starbucks on every corner to make a buck?
Did waves of sea peoples immigrants from Sardinia see their adventures as striking a blow for the old Neolithic? :)
Anyway, I'm excited to read more about after 1177. My vote would be, more about the Philistines and what's up, Sardinia. I know the written record makes it easier to talk about people with empires than people without them, but I am drawn to these stories about the less visible.
Thanks for doing this interview!
I'd love to read about how he suits the giants and Baityloi of Mont'e Prama into his timeline. Some say they were already made around 1200 - and they would be pirate-kings but during the geometric time there were made bronze figurines in their fashion like souvenir-takeaways for some centuries and last the large ones were smashed... what might have happened and why? Have they got to do something with the Phoenician colonization of / or their return to Sardinia?
My vote is for going back and forth between different groups as time goes on.
Great idea! Please get it out to us asap, feels like having to waiting for a epic movie to get produced ...
It would be nice to have a chapter exclusively on the economic aspects of the decline leading to 1177BC and then of the slow recovery.
Can’t wait! Just finished the first one after months on my bookshelf. So glad that he’s doing a sequel. Another resource to use for my own book on the rise and fall of civilizations!
Would love more focus on the Luwian region between the Greeks and Hittites! Especially what we may know about their contributions to classical Greek culture
I look forward to reading "After 1177." I agree that a chronological format would be good to show the interconnections. Hopefully our civilization won't collapse before the book gets published.
Can’t wait to read this book, Dr. Cline.
This is so exciting! Will keep an eye out for this book when it's finished!
A set of parallel timelines showing at a glance what was happening globally across the spectrum, in chronological order, simply identifying events by one or two sentences and referring the text where you explain in depth... in tandem with the specific geographic locales where you talk about a specific people from beginning to end, perhaps with parenthetical notes to refer to an important event elsewhere ... chapters on each "empire" through time, in parallel vertically in chronological order, ... together with a simplified horizontal timeline showing briefly what's happening around the world, decade by decade, in the best detail you have, but only giving a page number for more clarification spelled out in the text.
I'm rambling, but I think you've got the idea. For example, I'd like to read about Egypt, but with notes saying something important happened in Assyria here, and later, another about Greece... but now back to the story of Egypt until... And with all the "notes" laid out in a long timeline tying them all together.
Do you think that would work?
Nick and Eric, can I take this opportunity to request a mash up that I've wanted for a few years now?
After reading "1177" I read the book 'Why Nations Fail" by Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson and I keep wondering how their ideas would apply to the Bronze Age and the following Iron Age nations rising out of the collapse. I want you all to come together for a discussion. Do their ideas break down when you go too far back in civilization? Are there universal truths regarding stable successful nation building? Maybe nations and international trade and how to build these successfully as so different in different epochs that it is like trying to reconcile quantum physics and astrophysics.
Eric, you did such a great job of considering the different influences and influencers of the Bronze Age collapse, could we have a discussion / incites on inclusive versus extractive institutions in the Bronze Age or the early Iron Age? Could we have a few case studies from the Bronze Age like we have in "Why Nations Fail"?
While the vast majority of people seemed to be the serfs / slaves / peasants under the monarch, even the lowliest seemed to have a cottage industry on the side that the government was not constantly interfering in, such as weaving. Karen says that Assyria gave people a way to opt out of being a citizen and paying taxes while continuing to live in the area of the kingdom. If we could get a follow-up book on the subject that would be even more awesome. Thank you so much for your time.
I criticized your channel a few months back - perhaps unfairly (probably having a bad day etc). But I have really enjoyed the Dr Cline series - so thanks for putting them out. I learnt a lot with each one. Your channel is really coming along these days - notice the production values have gone up and love the new style introductions too.
Great videos, just followed Dr. Cline on Amazon, looking forward to buying a book soon.
Using an integrated approach in this work will make it more comprehensive than individual case studies, as the interplay between the rising factions will become more understandable to your readers.
I'm so happy I found it on FB and wasnt going to miss it
I can’t believe I didn’t see this 2 years ago!! I frikkin love Dr. Cline.
I actually wonder if I would find a civilization approach more engaging and instructive , where Dr. Cline would review each thru the 400-500 years of rebuilding and then compare. Especially since each rose so differently. Either way I welcome and await the book eagerly.
'Rebuilding' civilization sounds better to my ears, because 'rebuilding' something from 'the ashes' needs an active 'want' of the people /- at least their leaders involved, birthing is something that happens to somebody. And all the colonizing and city-building has a very active feeling about it. There's many books that do single people or single regions/cities and I'd like to see how they interacted and influenced each other down the timeline. I'd find it very difficult to find a reason to stop at 700 and not... say 500, but if the emphasis is about the rising and the beginning, and the foundation of the first colonies 700 is probably ok.
'Rebuilding' may sound better; more progressive, but I think the term 'rebirth' is more appropriate. I don't think there was an active 'want' of people or leaders to make their world better for humanity. Rather, for purely survival & self-interest reasons to have more food on the table and more wealth. So, rather than a grand scheme to make the world better, I think it was more natural, incremental changes that the average person had little control over. So inevitably, from the ashes, the world evolved to situations that people found themselves in. Hence, a rebirth.
Yes. It's your approach will be interesting for the readers. As one Russian writer used to say that we are studying history of different states as we are sailing parallel rivers which never crossing.
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The Sea Peoples were a purported seafaring confederation that attacked ancient Egypt and other regions of the East Mediterranean prior to and during the Late Bronze Age collapse (1200-900 BCE).
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Good luck on the new book, Dr. Cline: looking forward to it!
I just finished 1177! Hooray for good archeologists
I agree with him, I prefer a chronological rather than a geographical approach.
This is a very important and intriguing subject, Thank you for talking about it. I really want to know how the Assyrians got back up on their feet and did what they did after the Bronze age collapse. Also what happened in Greece, Italy and North Africa in that period.
I think the chronological aproach is the best in this case, i look forward for the book, maybe how the etruscans emerged, would be also cool
Aiming for a general view seems better, imo, in this world of specialisation, we need the broad picture. Humanistic studies is in part about connecting what we see segregated in our mind.
When will the revision of 1177 be available?
Hopefully early in 2021; just finishing up answering the copyeditor's queries now, with first set of proofs coming in Sept...
Eric Cline are you thinking about touching on the Etruscans or other emerging Italian cultures? maybe even the founding of Rome?
@@jongillin327 Planning to mention something, yes, though traditional founding of Rome in 753 BC will fall just outside the range of the book if I only take it to 776 BC...if so, would add least mention it in the section on "looking ahead" at the end of the book...
I’m looking forward to the audiobook!
alaskadrifter same!!!
Call the third book "Before 1 AD"? Or "Before 499 BC" or whatever the next period ends at? Just thinking...
Yeah 800 or 700 BCE is where the dark ages begin to fade. But IMO classical antiquity only consolidates in the 6th century BCE, when the Phoencians destroyed Tartessos and after the Iberians kicked the Celts out from Catalonia and Languedoc (probably with Greek help). 600 BCE is the foundation of Marseilles and in that century we still have a Phocaean (Marseillese?) narrative of Tartessos in which the King of that semi-legendary country asks them to stay in his court and when, they reply they can't, he gives them a massive amount of silver to help the reinforcement of the walls of Phocaea, because he had been told that the Lydians were threatening them (they conquered Phocaea soon afterwards and the Phoenicians probably destroyed Tartessos around that very same date, which is around 550 BCE).
Thus maybe "Before Cyrus the Great" because Lydia itself was conquered by this Persian king in 546 BCE. Afterwards it is clearly the full classical era.
I luv Dr Cline, he's cool, so glad I found him. Nice to get this calibre of academics online.
Yesssss. I want it!!
Dr. Cline is a star, but my all-time favorite is still Dr. Maranci :-)
Do you mean Christina Maranci ?
I have read somewhere that in Buddhist Philosophy they write history not from dates but from what they learn.
I believe if in after 1177 BC, Dr. Eric Cline can move book not based on facts but based on what we can learn it would be phenomenon. Like how in 1918 Meggito was invaded again based on ideas of 15 century BCE invasion.
If that is not possible, he can go chronologically and at end or mid of chapter give some important things which we should learn and observe. That would be like a Easter egg.
In my next life, I want to reincarnate as Dr. Eric Cline.
(To Dr. Cline): are you planning on discussing the Philistines and their link to the Achaeans? Because it has more or less been confirmed that the Phillistines were a mixture of Greeks and Minoans who were affiliated with the Sea Peoples. Additionally, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the thematic links between the Homeric Epics and the Books of Judges and Kings. The Phillistines are described in much the same way as the Achaeans are. And “Goliath” fits the “Hero” archetype almost perfectly.
People like Durant characterize the Achaeans as a dark age people (that is probably because “Homer” had Greek society reflect how it was in his time). But what if they, and the sea peoples as a whole, were not, in fact, Barbarians, but a seafaring imperial army attempting to construct a Toynbean “universal state”?
Just some thoughts I had, and ones that I am discussing in my own book (a generalist study of history focusing on the philosophical examination of various world cultures, synthesizing the systemic/empirical model and the morphological model of cultural development).
Your work has been a major help to the development of my own book, and it would be really fantastic (and useful 🤣) to hear thoughts on such topics from a trained historian.
Just finished 1177 BC - can’t wait for the sequel
Thanks so much
It might be interesting todo see what happened (after 1177) with peoples in the Caspian Sea. Also, I wonder if it is possible to find out something about the fate of descendants of hitite royalty. Any great, great grandson or daughter of Puduhepa going around? What about their knowledge? What happened to the hurrites in her home town? Another question I have is who, when, where and how steel production started and developed. I will be looking forward your findings. Good luck.
I feel the world could use a book on what was going on at the same time across countries. Typically a book, video, class focuses on 1 place / people at a time and you never quite understand how they all fit together.
To use much more recent examples from my own life where it was hard for me to reconcile concurrent events in different places, reading the Brontes with all the social rules and class distinctions in England and then reading Poe where people just get on with life (or not) I was surprised to find that the works were all written in the same time. The freedom in the US was really striking.
Then there is the Chinese Cultural Revolution. All the horror stories I've heard. Surely it took place back in the 1910s, 20s or 30s - some darker age with more limited international flights and media reporting where a nation could have a chance of getting away with such atrocities. I was really shocked to learn that the Cultural Revolution was happening the same time as Woodstock, the Beatles and the evoluation of disco. That just doesn't compute.
So, if we (some of us) still can't get our heads around more current events happening at the same time in different countries, we probably could really use some help with the post-Bronze Age collapse landscape and players as well. Whatever you write, I will obviously find room for it on my bookshelf next to your other books.
Israel wasn't the only emerging nation from all this. Moab, Ammon, Edom, Midian, etc. Hope to learn more there.
Yeah, Ancient Israel is overrated.
Is the book out?
Awww 11 minutes? Awesome regardless 😁
Interesting interview. When studying ancient Near East history, is it best to start from the beginning with the Canaanites, Israelites, Egyptians, Hittites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Aramaeans, etc.?
I'm particularly curious about what happened i Egypt in that time. I know it survived the Late Bronze Age Collapse but was crippled and did not recover. Standard Egyptian history seems to consist of "Pyramids, weird gods, and Boom! Alexander takes over. A little bit on fill in the blank for that 800 years or so would be nice.
I trust that Dr. Cline won’t ignore evidence that doesn’t align with his own historical narrative. ✔️
Get out Hittite Coffee Mug Here! teespring.com/HittiteEmpireMug
I would love to read about parallels to modern times, and your considered extrapolation re suggestions for modern families/communities to weather current times.
Eric Cline!
I’d love to see India brought into this for its first philosophical teaching crossing the divide the impact on the learned of the day in the area of the world your work is upon I do believe a lot of the beliefs then stem from there as they seemed to have been the pioneers of many gods and Demi gods as well as a higher understanding in tandem with this of an Absolute truth stemming into different branches of the One and the Many and how these teaching progressed across the world by word of mouth and transferred itself to different Gods and mother worship from matriarchal to patriarchy in the corse of time ....but maybe thats another book in itself,,,
When i write i say im quilting it together
New book Sounds great! I really cannot understand how the Greeks adopted the phoeonician alphabet. Homer did not think high of Phoenicians, he concidered them as troglodytes. And they came up with an alphabet of their own?
An interaction of the collapse of all the countries of the Mediterranean after the 1177 collaps.
IT WOULD APPEAR THAT THE RECOVERY CONTINUES
Such a fun historian
The way i find out bronze age collapse was by counting my Ancaster 4,8,16... we are 8.5 billion people to get that number you need to go back 3200 years / 1200bc so i checked what happened that time and yep itbmakes sense now we restarted are civilization again and looks like we will do it again 😀
Love this. Why are people allways get angry when their belives are crushed by facts
What was happening outside of the Mediterranean region during the Bronze Age Collapse? Did ancient China Collapse? Did other citizations collapse?
Totally agree
2020...the year America collapsed. Sorry, I couldn't resist.
I've watched Mr. Clines videos.
Hes a smart guy. Looking forward to his next book.
Is the next 250 years gonna be known as the industrial age collapse?????
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VERY SMART MAN
Chronological
Yes! Chronological is much better.
But he doesn't say anything, does he? He rants a lot but he does not explain what happened after 1177.
IMO, in Greece there was a big "after the looting" party (and some reckoning), which is very generically reflected in the Odissey: skip all the travel and adventure part: he reckons he was stranded in Egypt for seven years, all the rest is a remake of "Jason and the Argonauts" but his stranding in Egypt ("Cretan lie") and the dispute for his wife/throne is probably suggestive of what was going on after the looting of Asia Minor, Cyprus and Syria in the leading country of the looters: Greece. Then, c. 1300 there is a dynastic conflict (Heraklidae) that results in the collapse of Mycenae and the decay of civilized life in general but without a clear break, not yet. Only c. 1060 there is a strong break and should be related to what happens in Egypt at the same time: partial conquest by the Meswesh (Amazigh or Berbers). This last LBA obscure episode, which razed or severely damaged all Greek cities save Athens seems to be reflected in the Atlantis "legend" (not really a legend proper, but oral history anyhow per Plato).
In Anatolia what happens is Phrygia, whose origin is surrounded in legend and seems strongly related by origin to that of Macedonians (Mushki = Makedon, Phryges = Bryges) and by later events to that of Armenians. All this is based on what Herodotus, who was native from Asia Minor, tells us, but linguistics, archaeology and genetics do not disagree, rather the opposite. Later there was a recomposition of native Anatolians as Lydia (neo-Luwians) but that's already rather well known history. It is a bit obscure how the Phrygians conquered Armenia (formerly pre-Indoeuropean Urartu) but probably it happened with Median support.
The Levant and Egypt are better known, there's some darkness re. Palestine, but almost certainly, the Hebrews displaced the late and decadent Egyptian rule, including the conquest of their Sherden and Tjekker vassals in the region (but not of the Peleset-Philistines). The rise of Phoenicians is also a bit obscure but they are clearly native Canaanites that remained loyal to their traditional polytheistic beliefs (there's El, as in Judaism, but also other gods, which in Judaism have been erased) and it's clear that at some point they exploited the vacuum of trading power left by collapsed Greece and replaced them with a clear goal in mind: Iberia (Carthage and Gadir were founded in quick succession) and its fabled (and very real) mineral wealth.
More interesting to me is Italy, where the LBA presents us with what should be identified as a major Indoeuropean invasion (Italo-Celts, mostly early Italics) with Urnfields culture (known in Italy as proto-Villanovan). There's also an Urnfields branch leading to NE Iberia (both surrounded the Ligures against the Western Alps and isolated them from other Vasconic peoples except by sea) and precursor of Iberian Celts. However IMO as we approach the Iron Age two other peoples, well known Sea Peoples to be precise: the Teresh (Tyrsenoi or Tauresi) and the Shekelesh (some type of Semites, maybe Canaanite mercenaries based on name and genetic trail) also got somehow involved in Italy, where they eventually carved two niches: the Teresh in Central and parts of North Italy (Etruscans, Villanova culture) and the Shekelesh in most of Sicily, to which they give name (and where Lebanon-like genetics are surprisingly strong, having no other possible explanation than LBA/EIA migration from the Levant, i.e. Shekelesh > Siculi & Sicels). Meanwhile in Sardinia we see an increase of Neolithic 1 type genetics (EEF, Ötzi-like), which proabably represents large influx of Italian refugees, either as invasion or peacefully. Fossil linguistics strongly support Sardinia speaking a Basque-like (Vasconic) language until Romanization (cf. J.M. Elexpuru 2017).
Iberia is also somewhat interesting because we also see collapse there but it happens in two phases: (1) the El Argar civilization, which was probably a centralized kingdom and had intense trade and cultural exchange with Mycenaean Greece (and should be somehow associated with the legends of Hercules in the Far West or Hesperia, from which Hispania surely), collapsed around 1300 BCE and did so in violent manner (fires). The surviving towns formed the "post-Argarian culture" which was probably a bunch of city-states and that leads almost directly to the latter Iberians of early history (Iberian culture, Iron Age). The other major Iberian civilization (Vilanova de São Pedro, VNSP, culture or Castro do Zambujal for its major town, still poorly researched) only collapsed later around 1100 or 1000 BCE and did so in direct relation with the sudden silting (tsunami surely) of the 10 km "marine branch" that linked it to the Ocean. In my interpretation it is this civilization which should be seen as Atlantis, because way too many details (not everything but a lot) fit with Plato's narration. I mentioned the intrusive arrival of Urnfields culture (Italo-Celts or early Celts) above, occupying Languedoc and Catalonia for at least half a millenium and expanding from them in Western direction (upstream the Ebro river, later, already inthe Iron Age, into the Plateau and the Western coast). However, coincident with the arrival of classical Greeks (Marseille and other sites) c. 590 they are displaced by the Iberians, thus Iberia's Celts (or Italo-Celts, some say Lusitanians were not Celts but "Italoids") were cut off from their continental brethren early on, before the classical Celtic culture of Le Tène and its major expansions to most of Gaul, Britain, etc. took place. That's why in most interpretations Celtiberian is very upstream in the Celtic linguistic tree: not because Iberia is the source but because they are an old isolated branch.
Otherwise in the Atlantic basin there was a very late Bronze Age all the way to c. 800 BCE, with extensive trade connections that reach to Denmark on one extreme and to Cyprus in the other, probably via Sicily (where Elymnians may have been an Iberian colony of some sort, obscure). This Mediterranean trade connection of Atlantic Late Bronze (Early Iron Age for the rest of the region already) may have been the thread that Phoenicians traders and settlers followed to forge their colonial empire.
1:56
Looks like we are getting another reboot ... great moving backwards and stuck with the mass dum bum humans:)
If David Rohl is right, nothing much happens, because the chronology is wrong. Short book!