The Bronze Age Collapse in the Bible
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- In this episode Seth Fleishman from the RUclips Channel "World History By A Jew," takes us into a subject I have really looked forward to and that is the Bronze Age Collapse in the Bible.
In this lecture he explores the Old Testament and shows us the Bronze Age Collapse throughout the Hebrew Bible, while also exploring the world outside of it as well such as explaining what was happening in Egypt, Greece, Anatolia and Canaan, while also discussing many of the sites that were destroyed by the Sea Peoples themselves.
But, we also see those of the Sea Peoples who arrive to ancient Canaan and who also decide to stay such as the Philistines. But also he discusses a controversial subject and that is, is one of the Israelite Tribes a part of the Sea Peoples groups?
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The time of the Bronze Age collapse is SO intriguing!
Would make a good basis for a space opera!
We call it the bronze age collapse but it was limited only to one region and not worldwide.
@@trevorhunton7526 correct, but at the time there technically weren't any other civilizations in the world more advanced than the ones affected by the collapse. The only exception is China, but they were so far away it didn't affect them as much.
@@gilbertotoledo1421 didn't affect the Chinese at all.
@@gilbertotoledo1421 Wasn't the Indus River Valley Civilization around then.
I'm glad this video was produced. For the last 2 years, I've been trying to gather information on this topic: which Biblical events happened during the Bronze Age collapse.
Be sure to check out his channel, his work is awesome!
@@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449 I subscribed already :). I love history and these videos are good quality!
I understand his claim about Pi-Ramesses but why leave out Avaris? Clearly, there was a much older city at the site. Seems like a massive omission.
From an atheist who is fascinated by history, religious or not. Much love from UK seth xx
History belongs to us all ♡
Convert
@Kash243 Soldier to Catholicism, the one true faith
@Kash243 Soldier you know as much about Roman paganism as you know brain surgery
There's no mention of bronze age sky daddies in the comments that I can see.
As a Mongolian voodoo priest with polytheistic pagan and shinto influences, I agree!
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I think the biblical Exodus was an attempt to explain how the Israelites came to be, after the Bronze Age Collapse wiped out both the records and the literate elites in Canaan. As such it would have drawn from cultural memories of the Hyksos and other pre-collapse events.
@@andybeans5790 Hey, that's a pretty interesting idea. It honestly isn't too far off from what many scholars think - that the Exodus is a story meant to provide a sort of 'national' genesis story for the Jewish people. I think it's an amazing attempt at building a past as steeped in legend as it is inspired by actual events. It makes way more sense to me if I read the accounts of the Exodus in the same mindset I might read the Odyssey or the Illiad, because they're all examples of historical fiction that establish ethnocultural identity and aggrandizes the source culture.
The dating of Exodus is an interesting question. The reference to Pi-Ramesses is not conclusive, it could easily be a later interpolation. Mr Fleishman asked it rhetorically as if a ridiculous thought, but yes, I think there's roughly a couple hundred years glossed over, between the death of Moses east of the Jordan, and the later crossing of the tribes to the west bank. During these years Mt Nebo would have been the center of worship, and that worship spread through the land assigned biblically to Reuben, Gad, and eastern Mannasseh. They prospered and built their herds for several generations that are not mentioned, and then when the collapse came and there was a power vacuum on the western side of the river, they were ready to start moving in and claiming land on the other side of the river. The biblical editor doesn't spend much ink on gaps like that, he just stitches the end of one narrative onto the beginning of the next and goes right on, so it's not obvious, but looking at the archaeology as well as the text I think this makes sense. Any comment?
I like this guy (his passion and ingenuity) and in most aspects I like the way he thinks, more or less "correctly" combining the myth (Bible) with the facts (archaeology, other historical sources). However he gives too much credit to the myth and that has him not quite where I am on this.
I'll make a more extense separate comment but I think he's a very worthy guest, even if I still disagree with him in much. But for what is worth let's say here that I very much agree with his near-800 BCE Solomon date: if he was trading with Tarshis (Tartessos, modern Andalusia) in partnership with the Tyrians, then he could not have reigned much earlier per the archaeology of the oldest Phoenician colonies (Gadir, Utica).
@@laughingdaffodils5450 - You say that "I think there's roughly a couple hundred years glossed over, between the death of Moses east of the Jordan, and the later crossing of the tribes to the west bank". Which is pretty much my idea: the myth says "40 years" but that's the typical rounded figure that means nothing but "a long time" (it's also the claimed duration of the reigns of David and Solomon, again a sign of such time lapses being forgotten by the time of Biblical writing down but generally considered "a long time").
I'd say that the Exodus should correspond to the obscure figure of Amenmesse, who has strong parallels with Moses and fits extremely well the 1200 date claimed by Seth Fleishman, BUT that the invasion of Canaan could not have happened just 40 years after that (i.e. c. 1160 BCE) because at that time, even if weakened, Egypt still controlled Djeny and probably all Retenu all the way to Qadesh. It's only in the 11th century when Egypt loses control of the region and finally c. 1060 it collapses under the Berber (Meswesh) invasion (or some say "mercenary coup"). And it's only in the 11th century when we can begin talking of Iron Age (outside Hittites and some people of Niger, who were avantguard), if at all (steel making mastery is complicated, mostly it is c. 1000 when Iron Age becomes a standard label everywhere around the Mediterranean, I could take tentatively c. 1100 or 1050 for some places but need evidence in form properly dated steel weapons/tools).
As Fleishman says, the Bible does not mention any other struggle with Egypt after the Exodus proper (Moses' legend) and that should mean that Egypt was by then completely removed from Djahy (Southern Canaan). However he did not say that the Hebrews or Israelites first fight the Canaanites (and only later clash with the Philistines), I wonder why he skipped that part. It also mentions the destruction of one city in Samaria or Gallilee that is often believed to have been a Shardana fortress. So it's a bit more than just the Philistines, if we take the Bible at face value, then it is the conquest of a post-Egyptian semi-disorganized Canaan, a bit like the Anglo-Saxons conquered a post-Roman semi-disorganized Britain.
The latest known Egyptian presence in Djehy is a Ramesses IX cartouche found in Gezer so Egypt should hold control of the province at least at the beginning of his reign (1129-1111 BCE) and probably during most of it. However his successors seem to fall victims of Libyan or Meswesh attackers, so I think it's reasonable to assume c. 1110 BCE as the approximative date of Egypt abandoning Canaan to its fate (it could also be a decade earlier but there's no reason I know to think so... other than Biblical mythology).
This guy's enthusiasm really makes for a good interview, thanks.
I have placed these events around the same times as your timeline but you really did a great job of presenting the available evidence both from the Bible and from extra-Biblical sources. Now I have to watch the others in this series.
Starts at 08:50
thank u
Thanks. I love biblically related studies.
"World History By A Jew," is a great channel! Also for non Jews!
Fan from the Netherlands here.
I am Dutch with a bizarre mix of Jewry. Once ancestor came from Shush in Iran and opened a pharmacy in Amsterdam. Why he went all the way to Amsterdam in the 17th century I don't know. His children married with Sephardim, who later on married with Eastern European Ashenazim. From my other parent's side It's Hungarian Jews and German Ashkenazi Jews.
But I do think Dr. Finkelstein has a point. I think the chronology and dating of events of the old testament are kinda off and some people like Solomon are extremely exaggerated.
Dr. Joshua Bowen from Digital Hammurabi, who's work it is to translate ancient texts and reads/speaks most of the ancient languages of the Middle East comes to the same conclusion based on (ancient) Biblical texts. A very interesting series is the "When was the Book of Daniel Written?" on his channel.
Wild Woody, thanks so much for your kind words! I look forward to seeing you again on my channel!
I grew up fascinated by ancient history but the Bronze Age Collapse was a hole in my historical education until recently. I have been wondering to what extent we can view the Old Testament as a "post apocalyptic" narrative or documentation of the Bronze Age Collapse. EDIT: Also just subscribed to the channel of World History By A Jew!
@NEAR TERM EXTINCTION - HUMAN People were using arsenical bronze before tin came into use. This caused a number of health issues, and may be why Haphestus/Vulcan is commonly depicted as being disfigured.
Thanks for watching and subscribing! Glad you enjoyed ...
I claim to be another new subscriber...I CAN'T WAIT for your lectures in the future...now, let me catch up via binge video watching..
Thank you! Let us know what you think after your great binge!
@@WorldHistorybyaJewTheChannel so much new information for a history buff of many many years.. I am truly amazed... truly amazed.
@@eavaharris3519 I'm honored. Thanks!
Thanks for your informative & thought-provoking lectures. Since you expressed a desire to include lectures for other periods in history, I wish to suggest a lecture(s) covering the period of the diaspora to modern era, with the focus on regions (e.g., western Europe, eastern Europe, the Med, the New World, Asia).
Hi, Seth and Nick, I really appreciated this lecture, it has helped cement some of my theories that I'd personally thought almost outlandish.
It's almost like after the exodus, the S.P. realised there was a type of power vacuum.
Also, for 250 villages to suddenly spring up after 1177ish, the massive influx of new blood HAD to come from external sources.
Were the Habiru in communication with distant relatives who took advantage of Egypt's decline and joined the S.P. only to move farther inland once the initial coastal conquest had succeeded, to join their brethren in the nascent state of Israel?
I'm intrigued to learn who the 'other' S.P. were, which weren't listed on the Rameses papyrus or depicted on the Medinet Habu stele.
I highly doubt that all of the groups who took part in the invasion/collapse convened on the Egyptian delta.
As with even modern conflicts, when disparate groups form alliances, they don't particularly bunch together but take special roles and diverge upon disembarkation.
Even Normandy was split into national divisions.
From the various texts we have, from the papyrus to the little Iliad and its more well known volume, the majority of the S.P. were foiled from being allowed to make landfall before they could coalesce, form groups and make headland/conquer/invade, but small groups WERE able to make incursions (the search for Helen, who the lesser Iliad states had been whisked away from Troy at some point) during what amounts to a 20 year window, given the various dates given for various activities of principal characters mentioned in both the lesser and greater Iliad.
Correct me if I'm wrong( and I probably am) but didn't the Sea Peoples come in multiple waves, separated by decades, according to the Egyptian inscriptions? From my understanding, the multiple incursions by the Sea Peoples led to the beginning of a long and protracted decline until the Ptolemaic period, and they were dealt with by different rulers. I can only imagine the absolute terror the ruling class and the general populace must have had during these 'invasions.'
@@lastofmygeneration - There are three documented "Sea Peoples" waves:
> c. 1280 the Shardana (Nuraghic Sardinians for sure) soloing an attempt to conquer or raid Egypt. Foiled. They were then incorporated to the Pharaoh's service as some sort of "Varangian guard", both as royal guards and as "runners" (infantry) in Retenu (Canaan). Some claim that certain city in Northern Palestine, that is mentioned in the Bible as destroyed by the Hebrews, was a Sardinian stronghold.
> c. 1208 a coalition called "the nine bows", composed of nine peoples, incl. the Hittites (surely the leaders), the Israelis (first time mentioned), two different Berber groups (Libu and Meswesh), and five others that I don't recall clearly (the Ekwesh, believed to be Achaeans, i.e. Greeks, and I would have to check for the rest but almost certainly the Lukka = Lycians were also involved). They were defeated, the seed of Israel was no more, etc. The ruling Hittite king dies or is deposed, etc. In brief: a Hittite-Mycenaean-Berber-various others attempt at destroying or harming or raiding Egypt that was clearly foiled. All is in the Menerptah stele.
> c. 1178 is when the main Sea Peoples wave happened, followed by a secondary attempt c. 1175. It seems to me that in the aftermath of the conquest of Troy, the Greeks (Denesh = Danaoi) organized a massive campaign, primarily against the Hittites and vassals. They conquered Cyprus (which was then Hellenized), destroyed Ugarit and other North Syrian cities vassals of the Hittites and probably a parallel land-based campaign (Phrygians?) destroyed the Hittites at their core (Hattusa burned). The Ugarit letters talk of just seven ships... but enough to raze a defenseless city that had all its troops in the west, i.e. there was some decisive battle in Western Anatolia that utterly crushed the Hittite Army and Navy and this we read and find as charred ruins is the aftermath, so quick that not even news of the defeat arrived, no preparations for further defense could be improvised.
Afterwards the coalition marched south against Egypt-held Canaan but were defeated (or so claim the Egyptian sources). Three years later a second attempt was made directly against Memphis from the sea but the Egyptians ambushed them at the Delta and massacred or captured them all.
Egypt survived and so did Mycenaean Greece but both declined in the later century. Egypt may have abandoned Canaan c. 1100 BCE (or a bit earlier), while under strong pressure from the Berbers (Meswesh), Greece sees the abandonment of Mycenaea and palatial decline c. 1130 BCE (Dorian invasion?) But both suffered the final blow already well into the 11th century BCE, when almost simultaneously Lower Egypt was finally conquered by the Meswesh and all Mycenaean cities save Athens were razed. This last blow should also be considered a Sea Peoples invasion probably but it's just not well documented, it's after all the beginning of the Dark Age in Greece and the end of the New Kingdom in Egypt. I personally associate it with the Platonian narration of Atlantis.
@@lastofmygeneration I actually my last lecture on this channel is better for your interests. If you have a few minutes, check this out: ruclips.net/video/P9VChnOS8oQ/видео.html
Paul, I think you will like my last lecture on Nick's channel, as it focuses more on the Sea Peoples invasion. Take a look if you have time: ruclips.net/video/P9VChnOS8oQ/видео.html
@Chas Maravel - TY.
"You shall restore the old wastes." - I now wonder if this quote wasn't related to the overall collapse and its aftermath.
Seth's channel is in top 5 history RUclips channels right now.
Tony ... WOW! Thanks so much!
The dreaded "Sea Peoples" !
"Ssssssh it's us." - The British
I tried to give this video a chance, but the actual topic does not start until 8 minutes into a 30 minute video.
Thanks again for yet another great bronze age video. Got my Sea People's Tour hoodie. Keep up the good work, I enjoy this calabo
Thank you for watching and for supporting the channel! You should send us a pic of you in our hoodie!!!!! Would love to use it!
@@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449 I don't know how I can put a pic up here on RUclips. It's a good thing smartphones are smart, cause I'm an idiot with the tech. Give me gears and mechanics
757 you’re fine! Send the picture to us on Facebook or even in an email!
barksdalenick1@yahoo.com
Thanks, 757!
7:55 if you want to skip to the content of the video
Where is the lecture, because I'm skipping and all you are saying is what the lecture is gonna be about
Great stuff! Absolutely fascinating period of history!
as long as people think hating on the Jewish people is not a big deal and think out doesn't count as bigotry, there will always be bigotry.
As a Jew myself who has done what Mr. Fleishman discusses here, in looking at the Jewish Bible for what actual history from this period it may contain, I thank you very much for these lectures. He has fleshed out that viewpoint very well, but....
But my problem with Mr. Fleishman is the same that archaeology has with the generation of William Albright, who went digging with a bible in one hand and a spade in the other. When you're looking for one thing, you may block out other possibilities, and subtleties.
One case in point with this lecture is that the settling of the Central Hill Country is not as simple as a large group crossing the Jordan together and settling among one another at one time. An archaeologist who suggested that today would never get a job.
But it is interesting to see that viewpoint discussed, and thankfully Nick also features some of the finest archaeologists working today who give an academic viewpoint for those looking for that.
Agreed. I hope it's not with the Bible on one hand and a spatha on the other. ;)
Great to listen to the rich details of these times with a world in both turmoil and settling phases for new kingdoms. Thanks to new archeologic discoveries our knowledge on that era is enriched.
Glad you enjoyed it! And feel free to check out his other work!
Seth, thank you for a great lecture here. Any chance you have a bibliography for this series that you can share
I'm happy to share sources. Every slide should have the bibliography. Which one do you need?
Correct me where I'm wrong, but from what I read about Finklestein in the New Yorker (which is the furthest thing from an anti-semetic publication), isn't his main deal debunking the biblical narrative of Jewish history, not delegitimising the presence of Jewish history in the Israel/Palestine? I.e. David was a local warlord, not a great king of a united Kingdom; Judaism emerged from polytheistic Canaanite religion, etc.
I agree with you. Dr. Finkelstein means no harm, but his words are twisted by those who do mean a great deal of harm. Reminds me of a book I read about Benjamin Disraeli, who was the first British Prime Minister who was born Jewish. In his way of defending his beliefs about Judaism, his quotes ended up being used by anti-Semites the world over, including Hitler himself. Disraeli didn't mean any harm either.
Hes an antisemite, hated by all Jews.
Here from Brazil! Already subscribed to your channel!
Anyway, as you mentioned, what are your opinions on the work of prof Finkelstein? I find that many people use for antisemite comments which is a shame, but his work is quite consistent
Cheers
My first Brazilian subscriber! Thank you! I don't think Dr. Finkelstein means to cause harm. It just shows how one's words can be twisted by those looking to hate. He is a biblical minimalist, which is 100% his right, but since he is Israeli, his words are taken by those who wish to see harm done.
Actual program begins at 7:55.
Lecture starts at minute 8.
So disappointed to hear that you've had to deal with that anti-semitism Seth, you're a good sport to just roll your eyes at such rude rubbish, please don't take comments from a vocal uneducated minority to heart. Regardless the West really owes Jewdaism thanks for so many great contributions to our cultures.
BTW. I'm from Australia, found you via Nicks great channel a few episodes ago. Can't get enough of bronze age coverage and your stuff is really hitting the spot in many areas of my interest.
Thanks guys, keep up the great work. LIKE, SHARE, LIKE
@@boozecruiser really, is that what they've done? I bet no one else would ever (sarcasm). Clearly to what I was referring to eh? If you continue to view things you're directed to through those glasses mate, you'll only ever see what you hope to and you're currently seeing the shadows in the dark only.
Ever explore Ancient Roman and Greek history as just two examples? These human rent seeking explorations were alive and well in the founding of our culture, were continuous factors in raising class tensions/riots/war from such behaviors again and again before Jewish integration into Classic Europe.
Ps... don't borrow at high interest doofus ;-)
@@FrogInPot Thanks so much! I appreciate your support. Tough crowd, huh? I should also note you're my first subscriber from Australia!
@@WorldHistorybyaJewTheChannel of course :-) That's cool too :-)
So, here’s my question, and you may have answered it somewhere else but I don’t know. Historians have theorized about the “causes of the plagues of Egypt”. Many of their theories would have had wide ranging consequences across the Mediterranean. So, the question is “Did the Biblical Plagues of Egypt initiate the Bronze Age Collapse?”
Could Israelites have been the sea peoples? This wouldn't have a connection to the sea... although if they were parting seas left and right, that would certainly qualify them as having some power over the sea. ;)
The Israelite invasions could have been part of the overall movements of peoples that occurred during the bronze age collapse.
@Santina Murphy Thanks. So there was no confusion then from the Egyptian's part...
@@Hawaiian_Shirt_guy Thanks, yes that makes sense.
The Philistines were. The Israelites not so much. But because Judaism got influenced by them we see a lot of Indo European references. Like a sky god in a chariot and certain Philistine names.
The Philistine El was compared to Cronos by the Greeks. And Cronos gave birth to the 1st generation Greek pantheon (Angels), who regularly had sex with mortal women, creating offspring with super human powers (Nephilim).
The flood of Deucalion will sound familiar too :
"Prometheus had a son Deucalion. He, reigning in the regions about Phthia, married Pyrrha, the daughter of Epimetheus (the brother of Prometheus) and Pandora (the first woman fashioned by the gods). And when Zeus would destroy the men of the Bronze Age, Deucalion, by the advice of Prometheus, constructed a chest. Having stocked it with provisions, he embarked in it with Pyrrha. Zeus, by pouring heavy rain from heaven, flooded the greater part of Greece, so that all men were destroyed, except a few who fled to the high mountains in the neighbourhood as Peloponnesus was overwhelmed. But Deucalion, floating in the chest over the sea for nine days and as many nights, drifted to Parnassus, and there, when the rain ceased, he landed and made a sacrifice to Zeus, the god of Escape. And Zeus sent Hermes to him and allowed him to choose what he would, and he chose to get men.
And Deucalion had children by Pyrrha, first Hellen, whose father some say was Zeus, and second Amphictyon, who reigned over Attica after Cranaus, and third a daughter Protogonia, who became the mother of Aethlius by Zeus. Hellen had Dorus, Xuthus, and Aeolus by a nymph Orseis. Those who were called Greeks he named Hellenes (Ἕλληνες) after himself, and divided the country among his sons. Xuthus received Peloponnese and begat Achaeus and Ion by Creusa, daughter of Erechtheus, and from Achaeus and Ion the Achaeans and Ionians derive their names. Dorus received the country over against Peloponnese and called the settlers Dorians after himself."
Some people didn’t catch your joke and it shows. I appreciate the humor, haha.
Good content! I already checked a few of his lectures. A bit too religous for my taste, but very fun to watch. A small complaint: he fills the slides with too much information, it is all a bit overloaded.
I think history has a problem with an uncritical overreliance on literary sources rather than adapting to new information that more scientific disciplines such as archaeology, genetics etc have brought to the table.
I find religious scripture interesting, but I'm turned off by people who assume it is history and try to harmonise it with the evidence from more critical/scientific fields.
10:43 "Let's jump right in"
regarding antisemitism etc, remember trolls use nearly the same phrases to get a kick out of you and have literally no other meaning behind them. they don't hate anyone but get a kick out of reactions.
ppl who hate do exist but on the net the differences can blur
Happy New Year to Seth!
L'shana Tova!
One detail that stood out to me in Judges is that the amonites actually sent letters to Jephtah ASKING for Israel to simply give land to them, while at the same time the Philistines (pwleshet) first really come onto the scene.
Were the Philistines pushing the Amonites from behind? They had always been there but not in force.
My theory is that they were a trading colony that hailed from the main area of Philistines in modern Cyprus.
The large cities were in decline at the time those small villages appeared. It is dishonest to imply they were new settlers instead of people leaving the cities.
It may be a mistake but why is it dishonest? What proof do you have that it is a mistake?
There's always been waves of new settlers into the region.
Excellent point.
@@Aj-zr8dz - Not really or not very impactful at least. Else how do you explain that Palestine genetics are identical to Bronze Age Canaanite genetics?
He is implying that the new villages are related to the exodus. If you know the large cities were abandoned at the same time it is not a mystery where these people came from. He mentioned Israel Finkelstein, there are plenty of videos on here where he explains why the Old Testament is mostly fictional.
Good work lads. Keep it up
I just listened to a History of the Papacy sidetrack podcast 82: Joshua in History and Tradition that talked about this time period with Garry Stevens. Lots of the same info you cover. Very cool time period.
Great lecture!
Thank you!
Very Nice Topic
I love your lectures. Thank you. Now you have some one following you from France.
I always assumed they were dispersed into the desert because of war? so makes sense to me it would be after the sea peoples invasion
You have me convinced, thanks for this I have been wondering about a lot of this.
When do you think David & Solomon reigned, was that c. 1000BCE, if so that compresses the Judges period into about 200 years, though the chaotic world described in Judges seems like a good match for what the world must have been like after the Bronze age collapse.
The other possibility I have heard discussed is that the Exodus happened much earlier - around the era of Tutankhamen. Tutankhamen’s father Akhenaten is the only documented case of Egyptian slavery, used in the construction of his new capital, Amarna.
Numerous children’s skeletons were found showing signs of overwork and poor nutrition.
Start at 10:45 to skip the intro and chatting. Honestly it should have been made into a separate video for the people that care to listen to that. A whole third of this video is pointless if you came here for the title.
I guess the hard part to understand is how God delivers people into the hands of their enemies well also requesting that they have faith that they will overcome insurmountable odds and then at times if the Bronze Age collapse would be involved the complaint that iron was too large of a hurdle to overcome really is pretty tough for me to accept but it also in a small way makes sense- as if to say at times God could perform Miracles but other times God simply uses natural resources such as neigboring enemies because like in the case of Egypt there was like plagues and what not or a giant Cloud over the Tabernacle and the ground opening up and eating congregations which makes you wonder why the sea people are necessary in the first place but the tribe of Dan they were on boats and they also had issues with iron chariots in valleys and they could have been sea people as Denyens...
I just spent a week waking up and falling asleep over the literary minutia of Joshua Judges and 1 Samuel trying to find out the answers to this EXACT question.
Seth, yourwork is very good and scholarly. It’s very illuminating. Judges and first and second Samuel fall within this era.
I am French and Catholic, and I highly respect Jews. Jesus, his family, friends and disciples were all Jews. The first generations of Christians were mainly Jews, we need them to better understand the Bible and Jesus.
Love your channel!
This is cool. I hadn't really thought about how the bible portrays the bronze age collapse before. Seems like it's quite indirectly.
But it makes me wonder what we could observe about the transition from bronze to iron.
The bible says nothing about the bronze age collapse.
Secular Stones what understanding do you have?
@@Mike-gz4xn well it was written hundreds of years later, by people who had no written records. It was written in order to deceive people. And the phrase bronze age collapse does not appear in that book. So, the book is about people who never existed in a drama that never happened. It's a fraud, like all things religious. You can try to imagine that it contains info on the collapse, but you are imagining that. It is not in the book.
Secular Stones ha, you believe it would describe the “Bronze Age” as such? You believe the entire book is fiction? That’s pretty extreme, even for very secular historians. When and by whom were the text written by “hundreds of years later?”
@@Mike-gz4xn of course nobody knows who wrote the bible. Standard estimations for when it was written begin around 800BC. So, yeah, hundreds of years. Now if it was written to inform us about history, and it was old enough, then of course I would expect it to tell us about the bronze age collapse. But, it was written hundreds of years after the collapse by people who obviously do not know about it.
There were no gods, no miracles, no Abraham, Moses, Solomon, David, Elijah or any of the rest of that crew. No first temple, no talking donkey, no talking snake, no flying wheel. There was no kingdom from the Nile to the Euphrates, no Goliath, no man in a fish's stomach who survived for however many days the book says. None of the stuff in that badly written book of iron age fables and folklore ever happened. Do I make myself clear? The book was written to deceive people, you think it was written to inform you. Hah! See? I can laugh and mock too. If you would like a serious introduction to the facts about the old testament and what a pile of misinformation it is, check this short video about an excellent book: ruclips.net/video/kZY2eeozdo8/видео.html
I recommend watching Robert Sepehr's work on "Semitic languages" or anything Aryan/Indo European especially from a non bias perspective and without a religious agenda 🙏💯🌐
You guys do solid content also I appreciate the different perspectives 🙏 Thank you.
That guy does great work. Cool to see someone else who knows of him.
Ayran an Semitic lanaguages don't have the same origin.
@@andysawyer647 omg 🤦♂️ go do some more (lots more) research and come back to me in a few years then we can have an intelligent conversation. 🎤⬇️
@@andysawyer647 here... I'll even help you a bit son
ruclips.net/video/kp6H0VSvi9Y/видео.html
Hey. If a 2 decade old nation can fight off 5 nations in only 6 days, they deserve to be there.
The force sent to attack Israel was half the size of their army
I'm curious as to the Kabbalah.
I was told it came from a time 4 or 5 hundred yrs ago, when Pagans and Jews were both having to practice secretly, so a synthesis came about from sharing this religious outcast position in dangerous times.
Could be a load of BS, but I was wondering.
The "Sea Peoples" are obvious when you consider them as "Pirates" of the rich bronze age. When the Rich Bronze age trade collapses, with the collapse of rich nations navies / armies, Pirates will take over ! They are now the power, re-enforced by hungry refugees. Excellent Video BTW.
When things went pear shaped the maya always blamed the folks in the big house, murdered the lot of them, moved off and started again elsewhere. There's no reason why this is not the simple explanation for the bronze age collapse.
@@trevorhunton7526 Where;s the evidence the poor mass murdered the rulers ? My point being, changing the question from "Who were the Sea Peoples" to "What were the Sea people", makes answering the question alot easier.
@@RemusKingOfRome plenty of evidence and plenty of evidence of who the sea people were.
@@trevorhunton7526 : where? Please cite.
@@Riddim4 DNA.
Yes we have evidence of Jews with the Shasu of YHWH. Any YHWH worship is a sign of the earliest proto Jewish people but it's likely the Jews, Phoenicians other Canaanites who were slaves in Egypt converted to the cult of YHWH to fight for their freedom in a confederation of Tribes. These slaves were first taken after the expulsion of the Hyksos and as the bronze age continued, additional Canaanites were definitely captured and then added to a growing population of Canaanites slaves. It's the booming slave population in the Eastern Mediterranean during the LBA and the ratio of slave to free men that set up the collapse of civilization when a mega drought ensued. I think the Jews, Phoenicians and other Canaanites along with Carthaginians were basically the same people with slight genetic changes introduced through colonization of the Sea Peoples.
I’m from Switzerland...👋🏼
Great lecture. One striking omission however, is that the lecturer never says the word Hebrew.
Now even if all persons concerned were 100 percent positive that the Habiru, who are overwhelmingly documented during this time, are not the Hebrews of the Bible. It would seem that an honest explication would at least mention their amazing similarities.
The Habiru are ex slaves and also verified fighting men.
The Hebrews are said to be ex slaves that no doubt became fighting men.
The Habiru are documented to have been in and around Shechem and Jerusalem.
So who these Habiru are should be explicated, even if the speaker is certain that Hebrew and Habiru are not one in the same.
However, this speaker is so thorough in his avoidance of associating the two that he purposely never speaks the word Hebrew....while giving the history of the Hewbrew Bible.
That's curious. Don't you think
Cool stuff! 👍
me, a jew: oh this looks interesting, I'll give it a watch!
this video: incredibly thoughtful, familiar southern accents, very well-educated people presenting well-researched material
me, a jew: *SMASHES THE SUBSCRIBE BUTTON*
If anyone truly wishes to understand the nature and scope of the Bronze Age Collapse must read Immanuel Velikovsky's Worlds in Collision. If you do read this book, be prepared to read several other books by him as well. Easily, the most erudite person I've encountered in my life.
This channel is a gem
I’ve followed finklesteins work for years and I’m unaware of him saying Jews “came” into the land later. His position is that Jewish IDENTITY came later and that Jews and Israelites emerged out of the indigenous Canaanites-because that’s what the evidence shows. But that also still makes Israelites and Jews are indigenous to the Levant. He doesn’t dismiss the idea that during the Bronze Age collapse and with various conquests-like the Assyrians who had a tendency to play musical chairs with conquered populations-that new people groups moved into the territory and integrated with the indigenous population, but his position is that the core population of the Israelites were Canaanite. So anyone using finklestein to say that Jews aren’t indigenous to the Levant are quote mining and taking things out of context or willfully misrepresenting his research.
The interesting period is 1650BCE to 1150BCE imho. 1177BCE is Eric Clines date.
I'll add only:
The plagues correspond very well to the effects of volcano explosion. We know there was at least one after 1650BCE at Thera/Santorini. The last of these may have been as late as 1177BCE.
There is also no way that the explosion of monotheist priests by Tutankhamun and the abandonment of Amarna and loss of Tuts battle shrine that looks identical to the Ark, are not related. A burst of such new migrants strongly committed to monotheism meshes well with the Sinai story, and new migrants may have pushed numbers up to make invasions more possible.
I have one of the Sea Peoples Med tour T-Shirts. I think its hilarious. Most people have no idea.... I love it. Thank you.
Labaya in the El Amanna letters was King Saul. He complained to Akhenaten about Hebrews, referring to David and his warband.
The Kadesh Campaign would disprove a 1410 BC Israelite Conquest, because a kingdom on Ramses supply line would either have to be on side with Egypt, or the Hittites, and the Egyptians seem to have lacked much Canaanite support outside of the Neaarin, which if they were Israelite/Judean/Hebrew would have been referred to as such.
This blew my mind. If I could super-like a video I would. Going to subscribe over there for sure!
Modern Israelis, Lebanese, Palestinians, Bedouins, and Arabs are all descendants of the Canaanites (among others). The fact that over time some converted to Christianity, or Judaism, or Islam doesn't change that. In fact it can be proven mathematically that today everyone one earth with just one middle eastern ancestor is a direct descendant of every single inhabitant of ancient Canaan whose genetic line hasn't died out. That is to say, either everyone with a middle eastern ancestor is a direct descendant of David, or no one is. In fact this was already true during the time of Jesus. So all these groups are historical natives to the same land and descend from same people.
I would be curious to hear about mentions of the Sea Peoples in the Bible, but this video took too long of an introduction without getting to any information.
The Philistines. Or also the mention of the destruction of the people of Israel in the Menerptah stele (an older "Sea People" invasion). He does mention both but he does by passing, way too quickly. Enough maybe for the conoisseur but not for the casual aficionado.
I was anyhow hoping for a mention of the likely Sherden city that the Hebrews destroyed but he did not even mention it at all.
As for the lecture as such, I liked it, even if it was a bit too quick at some points and I had to stop to scrutinize the maps or properly process the info. Your model strangely fits with mine (roughly at least) at the two extremes:
1. I strongly think that Moses was Amenmesse after dropping the Amen- prefix (which did not drop from prayer for some reason, "amen" they say to show conformity), an obscure short-reigining pharaoh (c. 1200 BCE) whose tomb never hosted his body, no explanations given. Some of his life details seem to fit the legend of Moses rather well. A theory exists that, upon being dethroned or finding himself in the midst of a civil war, he found support among Canaanite slaves to whom he promised freedom and maybe the return to their homeland.
2. I totally like your almost 800 BCE Solomon: if he was making business with the Tyrian trade with Tarshis (Tartessos, not located but IMO modern Seville or not very far away, or others think that the general Turdetania country, i.e. most of modern Andalusia) he should be from around those dates and not c. 900 as typical Biblical chronologies suggest. This is because the oldest Tyrian colonies are Utica and Gadir and no archaeology can date them to before the 8th century (second decade maybe, which is also the date in which the first Phoenician influences appear in the Tartessian culture as such).
I still think you push both figures a bit too much towards the past but they are close enough for me to consider them good within my own model. What I strongly disagree with you is with placing the Israelite invasion (and even the Iron Age!) just after the Sea Peoples' foiled attempt at invasion. That's clearly too early: there is still some evidence of Ramesses IX (1129-1111 BCE) ruling over Djehy, at least in Gezer, where one of his cartouches was found. So his reign or his successor's should be the time when Canaan is abandoned, not a minute earlier. Say c. 1120 min., c. 1110 more likely, c. 1100 to play safe.
This clearly clashes with apparent Biblical chronology, but that should be no big deal because it is one of those "40 years" figures that only seem to mean "we don't know, we just know it was a long time". In this case that "long time" seems to be closer to 200 years, a bit less probably.
You seem a bit too much determined to give literal credence to the most legendary and obscure Biblical accounts and that is a problem, because everything fits a bit better if we don't go that literal, if we account for the "broken phone" phenomenon of legends, which typically contain a core of truth but also a lot of fancy elements and distorsions, and thus should not be taken at face value but only as complementary "they say that..." to hard evidence such as archaeology or more credible historical accounts.
And of these archaeological hard data, a big piece of the puzzle is Jericho, the city whose walls were allegedly demolished miraculously by the Jewish deity at the beginning of the conquest. AFAIK the city did not exist at least until c. 1100 BCE. so there was no key city to be conquered before that date and that is IMO hard evidence not for the legend of the conquest of Jericho to be false, as some have argued, but for a later arrival of the Israeli invasion at some point after 1100 BCE (which point exactly, that I'll leave to archaeologists). There is a hard choice to make between the general narrative, that I believe is roughly correct, truthful (regardless that I don't believe in the god nor the miracles or that I may reinterpret some details) and the chronology. And the chronology is the weak link quite clearly because the dates are clearly made up (generic "40 years" and the like) in many cases. If we allow for taking the chronology with a pinch of salt (or a dozen), then everything fits the hard facts much better and the Israelite conquest happened more or less as told but probably in the c. 1100-1000 window rather than two centuries earlier as you seem to imagine.
Good talk anyhow.
You are an extremely interesting commentator, Luis. I greatly appreciate your insight and informed speculation.
@@samitheman9783 - TY
November does approach. The Old Testament story of Joseph BCE.
As I have indicated in prior comments, that if one speaks with a structural engineer, the empirical evidence of the fieldstone foundations located at Pi Ramses could not have supported the monumental stone type structures and statuary that was relocated to Tanis by Psusennes. And the Old Testament accounts for the building of Ramses, is that of the Hebrews being forced to make mud bricks. Which could be supported by fresh fieldstone foundations. Only once the foundations could have been thoroughly compacted, after around 300 years of full sedimentary compaction on both sides of the stone foundations , could they then support the monuments, stones of Pi Ramses.
While I too have had many comments regarding the consideration that the Old Testament is an attempt to accurately tell a history even if it was first handed down as being only an oral one, I have tried to piece together All the evidence from the various archeological studies regarding this time including Dr, Cline and Dr Horowitz, seeing the possible biases of each, including both your work and that of Jacobvici and Sepher, to correlate a self consistent picture with respect to the realities of societies, and social pressures , the pressures of the natural world including climate, natural disasters, Etc. And still indicating that additional research is needed to fully understand the totality of the collapse. I have also had to remind many that Bronze comes I; different alloys not always with Tin although that alloy is the strongest. This is important in that it gives indications into the rise of Israel/ Judah within the power vacuum and how with the rise of the house of David, that Solomon, became the richest of leaders of his time. This makes sense as the copper mines in the southeastern portion of the Dead Sea Valley ( Edomite?) Show the slag remains of industrial proportions foe hundreds of years that contain an additional mixture of Arsenic/ lead content ( another alloy for bronze).
While not of the best quality, would have been the best until and after the introduction of Tin Bronze. This also makes sense as there has usually been a consideration that the Bronze Age stopped abruptly, as opposed to bronze being more slowly displaced by the greater availability of the newer technology of Iron production. It also gives a reason for the invasion into Israel by Schischak., as within such a materials vacuum of the best alloy, the second best would be highly prized along with its associated wealth. And both the Old Stestament and the Egyptian record have this in common.
Ironically tin bronze was the oldest one (but in Bulgaria, which is where bronze metallurgy began, almost a thousand years before anywhere else). Using arsenic was extremely bad for the metallurgists and thus it was surely used not because lack of knowledge of tin bronze but because of actual lack of tin, which is scarce and arrived to the region mostly from two sources: from Afghanistan overland and from Iberia by sea. Hittites were so concerned about this that they single-handedly developed the steel metallurgy almost 800 years before the official beginning of the Iron Age (and kept it a closely guarded state secret). A parallel similar development happened in Niger a bit later. It is generally accepted that it was mostly the lack of tin what kickstaterd the Iron Age (otherwise poor primitive steel, let along pig iron, is not very competitive against bronze).
Luis Aldamiz admittedly, that the Arsenic Bronze was of a more dangerous type however in the copper mines in the Levant, both arsenic and lead has been found in the slag, I believe that this was naturally occurring along with the copper ore and. Most likely became alloyed in the general smelting process. If the goal was to produce pure copper, there would still have been some impurities left in the ore. Archeological metallurgists use such impurities in determining the source of the ore. As to. The Iron, while there may be some evidence of iron production along the Black Sea coast of Hittite territory, if 5he Hittites had Iron weapons at the time of the onslaught of the Sea peoples, the superiority of such weapons would have defeated the the Bronze weaponry and the Hittite area would not have fallen. As I have stated , much more work is required to determine the history of the Tin Trade from both ends of the center. Very little can be determined regarding what would be a very expensive overland trade route and apart from an incursion of Celts into the northeastern area of Iberia, there Again is little that can be sen as a cause of the breakdown of such a profitable marine trade route from the eastern and southeastern portions of Iberia.
There is also insufficient evidence of any major droughts evidenced by sedimentary cores of various pollen, that might cause a mass migration event. The wester; Sea trade routes can be ascertained from current records of marine currents and approximated wind directions for various seasons of the year.
To be able to tell an accurate history, all the pieces of the puzzle must fit the evidence. As to a flood event on the. Ahmose Stele, with the final part of the eruption of Thera, circa 1550 BCE was a known tsunami event evidenced especially on Crete, but affected the entire eastern Mediterranean basin. Including the Northern shore of Egypt. Since there is no mention of such an event in the Hebrew account, they did not experience it as their Exodus was to the east towards Midian in Saudi Arabia. They would have experienced a very strong gale from the east as such ga,es are not unusual as cold air is drawn towards a fire/ eruption event and may form a part in causing pyroclastic flows where the column of ejecta suddenly falls.
@@walterulasinksi7031 - There's no big superiority of primitive steel vs bronze, bronze is pretty good metal for weapons and there are materials in martial arts channels here in YT that show it very clearly. Don't even for a moment imagine that people in the early Iron Age had anything like modern steel: that improvement of steel, whose "alchemy" of carbon doping was not well understood until the scientific era, was very gradual and based on the experience and education of smiths (clouded by ideas of "magic"). So when the Bible complains that the Israelites had no iron weapons, that is more of a later re-interpretation of quality comparison than a truly legitimate complaint: in the early Iron Age that meant rather availability of metal weapons (iron is more common than copper and tin is rare) than difference in quality.
Anyhow the Hittites were badass when they managed not to collapse to internal intrigue or to massively overwhelming foreign coalitions but steel only played a minor role in that. They almost certainly had to develop steel in order to secure any kind of metal for weapons because the sources of tin could be cut (they did not control the routes to Afghanistan nor Iberia themselves) and tin would be extremely expensive (unlike iron and coal).
@@walterulasinksi7031 - I may concur on the issue of climate being behind the Sea Peoples being at least questionable. It's hard to gauge the exact and likely complex motivations for migrations (much more clear further West: Celto-Italics were on the march in the LBA, very clearly so: Urnfields expansion) but in any case I see the Sea Peopes' invasions rather as political-military coalitions than as "peoples on the march" (although there was something of that as well). The 1208 "nine bows" invasion is clearly a coalition of Hittites, Greeks, Berbers and others against Egypt, the 1178 great invasion is clearly a major war between Greeks and allies vs Hittites and allies, with the former winning... but then failing to expand their Viking-style campaign to Egypt successfully. There was probably an undocumented c. 1070 invasion that destroyed the Greek cities and made Lower Egypt into a Berber realm and again I suspect it was a politica-military coalition that is to some extent reflected in the legend of Atlantis (as told by Plato), i.e. led by a distant Western power (VNSP civilization of what is now Portugal, IMO). Around this date or a bit later there is indeed some Sea Peoples (Teresh = Etruscans and Shekelesh = Siculi/Sicels) migrating in number to Italy but this is obscure (not dubious but unclear about how exactly it happened, the alliances, etc.) and was surely related somehow to the previous and still ongoing Italo-Celtic (Indoeuropean) invasion of Italy.
@@walterulasinksi7031 - I fail to see how the Thera eruption could be recorded in the primitive, very legendary and thus very obscure Biblical narrative about pre-Exodus events. That part of the bible is almost about herding sheeps only... so to say. It is unclear if the Ahmose stele events are related to Thera but could be but even the Egyptians don't talk much about it, much less illiterate shepherds from Canaan or the Syrian Desert (unclear where the proto-Israelites were then if they existed at all).
I cant get enough of the opening music
Abraham = Hammurabi, Jacob = hyksos kings, exodus pharaoh = Akhenaten (1340), Philistines = Pelasgians (Greece and Crete), Hebrews = Apiru (before Israel/Judah).
Hi Seth! Well done! Thank you so much! I only have one question: What about the passage from 1 Kings 6:1 that says that the Exodus happened in about 1450 BCE. ?
1 Kings 6:1 (NASB)
1 Now it came about in the four hundred and eightieth year after the sons of Israel came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.
Fuck, I LIVE for these BAC videos. Even more, I live for any video that attempts to link the Iliad with the Bible (two of the best books ever imo)
Goliath was an Achaean. I will say it again :P
Great intro!
6 minutes into the program and just chatting. Disappointing
Totally agree.
The lecture starts at 10:48.
Learn to use the skip button 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
So, the question I have is: where did the Israelite immigrants come from? The Eastern Desert ie what is today Jordan / Saudi Arabia?
To answer your question, a little more information is needed. This is because, unfortunately, most of Jewish history before the discussed time period is nothing but immigration.
So, do you mean the patriarch Avraham, or the Canaan-to-Egypt immigration under the patriarch Yakov? Or the later major immigration/invasion of Canaan under the Judge Joshua? I'll try to provide basic responses succinctly for these. If I'm wrong about your question, please clarify.
Avraham, or Abram, based on the generally-accepted narrative, was likely from the region near modern-day Baghdad. Likely not that city itself, but in the region controlled by it, possibly from a nearby city along the Tigris River.
When the Hebrews left Canaan under the watch of Jacob or Israel, they were living a semi-nomadic lifestyle near the region of Hebron, some ways south of Jerusalem. It's hard to pin down, because of all the moving they did, but they were basically a wandering tribe in the region, making deals with local kings and governors for rights to camp in the area before moving on.
Under Joshua, covered much better by the above video, the Jewish nation came from Egypt via the Sinai Peninsula and Arabian desert. That one's tricky, since the landmarks have been labeled, misread, relabelled and argued by various peoples of various languages for centuries. Ask seven experts and you may well get seven different answers, but most will agree they crossed the Jordan river from the east to assault Jericho.
I hope this helps!
Most people don't realize the semitic languages are Afro-Asiatic. They were likely a mixed people following they're expulsion from Kmt. Most of their pantheon from Edom.
Question: what does the ceramic material culture for the Levant and Israel show? Are there similarities with the concurrent Egyptian culture?
GEO, you're really going to like my next lecture: "The Real Origin of the Philistines" ... I'll doing a in-depth comparison of the ceramics. It's due to post Oct 1st.
Nick your missed ✊✌️
Blessings and Positive vibes to your family.
JH
1. Israelites were Canaanites
2. Exodus never happened
3. Torah was written 600-400 bce
4. Your religitardation is sad.
What of the period of the Judges, if the Exodus happened in 1250BCE rather than 1450BCE? It would be 200 years shorter than previous estimates, yes? What are the implications of a shortened period of Judges?
No. The Exodus likely happened around 1450 BC, and the destruction of Jericho around 1410 BC. The Hebrews were not affected by the Bronze Age Collapse, yet they did began to quarrel with the Phillistines after 1100 BC
8:46
RIP Nick
Jeremiah 9:23-24
There's absolutely no material evidence of israelite invasion, which seems to be the basic premise of Seth's argument. Material culture on the ground doesn't show much differentiation other than lack of pig consumption. In other words, the definitive evidencr points to a continuum between caananite and israelite culture.
Well, I'm educated (2 degrees). I have studied the Bible, apologetics I'm still learning, and I have read through the anti-Semitic tropes out there which I refuse to list because they lack any real scholarship, and are so obviously attempting to justify a pre-existing prejudice that is usually rooted in jealousy, envy, & covetousness, all sins in the 7 commandments in Torah (that Christians turned into 10 by splitting the 1st "Jewish" commandment, so to speak, into 3 commandments. I guess tjey liked the number 10 better than 7?😊
Anyway,I was raised, as was my husband, to respect all religions, but most especially the Jewosh people, to whom the very Wprd of God was entristed. Jesus was a Jew, as were the 12 apostles and most of the earliest disciples. We have raised our son the same. We will not attend a church that does not habe a love and respect for Israel and the Jewosh people.
Of course, not all people in any group are good and decent overall, amd thise are the ones thise who are looking for an excuse to be prejudiced will always use as a paintbrush to paint all the others of that group in broad stripes. God created humans in His image. He created people with all different talents, heights, personalities, colors, just as He created different plants, animals, climates, topographies. All have merit where they started and many times, where they ended up (kudzu doesn't belongnin the US where it has no natural enemies, and the Normans weakened the UK tribes in 1066 CE by introducing rabbits which had no natural enemies in the UK, so no, sometimes things shouldn't leave their natural habitat).
I appreciate how you mix Biblical and secular references. Thanks for your scholarship.
The Exodus occurred 480 years before the founding of Solomon's temple. 1Kgs 6:1.
How would you then have the judges and kings and still arrive at captivity in Babylon and Assyria respectively at the right time? Wouldnt you need to find roughly 200 years that dont exist?
PS the Egyptian chronology was based on the massoretic. Once it is corrected to the septuagint timescale you see that it was the 18TH dynasty which the daughter of Pharaoh Hapshetshut makes perfect sense...it also makes sense that her stepsons or step grandson would deface her tomb if he blamed her for rescuing Moses from the Nile leading to the downfall of their kingdom. The didnt marry outside the family until after their army is decimated by God in the Red Sea. They made marriage alliances. They became a very weak kingdom.
After 10 minutes of 30 introductory I'm bored to tears
Bye bye
Love me some Israel Finkelstein! Love your channel too.
What?! I've read about Israel Finkelstein, and he is a really balanced guy, but he actually says that the Israelites were originally the Canaanites of the mountains as far as in the Egyptian times, to be found there as settlements of Canaanites from the lowlands. So how can that be turned to mean that Israelites don't belong to Israel? It is meaningless to argue with idiots that haven't really read whom that they refer to. There is a removal function on RUclips discussion comments.
I'm not as well-read on Dr. Finkelstein's work as I probably should be, but I believe what you're referring to is this:
The Hebrews were present in the region of Canaan during a good chunk of the early and/or middle Bronze Age (sources vary), but they were (according to Jewish scripture) sojourners. They didn't own any of the land they lived on, but made agreements with local kings for rights to various pastures, and would migrate through different areas and set up semi-permanent settlements for a few years. Then, by some kind of leadership, agreement or treaty, they would just pack up their whole foreign civilization and move on to the next micro-state's territory.
The question then is: at which point does a people become the "natives"? The Hebrews, by this theory, were foreigners among the Canaanites, left the region, and then returned a few centuries later and crushed the weakened remnants of the fallen local civilizations, right alongside the Philistines and other invaders. Who, in that case, has the more legitimate claim?
@@bordenfleetwood5773 If that is so, either the Israelites are not equal to the Hebrews, or the Hebrews/Israelites were foreign migrating Canaanites among the Canaanites:
www.smithsonianmag.com/history/shifting-ground-in-the-holy-land-114897288/
I don't think Dr. Finkelstein means to cause harm. It just shows how one's words can be twisted by those looking to hate. He is a biblical minimalist, which is 100% his right, but since he is Israeli, his words are taken by those who wish to see harm done.
@@rursus8354 Given your line of questioning ... If you don't mind trying one more of my lectures, take a look at this: ruclips.net/video/BozU0ogC7Rg/видео.html
@@WorldHistorybyaJewTheChannel - Thank you for the clarification, sir. I am not familiar enough with Dr. Finkelstein's work to fully understand the question that was posed. I was having trouble parsing what the issue was.
Australians are subscribers too! 🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
Thanks for watching. You're my second Australian viewer today!
World History by a Jew - The Channel No worries mate! (That is Australian vernacular for “You’re Welcome!”
Seth glosses over a controversy with one of the elements that he uses for dating: the city of Pi-Ramesses. The Torah refers to the Hebrew slaves building Pi-Ramesses, but there is some question whether that is the name of the city at the time of the Exodus or the name of the city when the Torah was written (assuming documentary hypothesis for origin of the Torah). Pi-Ramesses is a new capital that was built adjacent to an earlier Egyptian city of Avaris. Just as one could reference New York City instead of Dutch New Amsterdam to make it clearer to modern readers, the Bible may have used a name for a city known to the audience at the time. Without the tie to Pi-Ramesses, the connection to Ramesses and the dating becomes more tenuous.
The Bible does depict the Bronze Age Collapse. Some suggest that the creation and flourishing of the Israelite monarchy occurred because of the window created by the weakening of Egypt.
There are more questions about the dating and the synchronicity than discussed in the presentation.
Semitic deposits were found under Pi-Ramses.
With the Hebrews Exodus against the Hyksos, the Dynastic Egyptians then had a greater military basis to be able to finally drive the Hyksos out and with a Dynastic military backing of the Hebrews the ‘ conquests by Joshua including the fall of Jericho,. Would be possible despite Finkelstein’s point that that occurred before the argued date of the Exodus. Additionally, with the 40 years in the desert, Where did Joshua get the weapons for a military campaign ? Such could have come from the Dynastic Pharaoh Ahmose and since the Hebrews had peacefully existed with the Dynastic Pharaohs before the Hyksos incursion, that being still under the major domain of Egypt, would have permitted the Hebrews to integrate int9 the existing (Hyksos/ Mittani) cities and cause internal destruction of the two tiered social order of those cities including the destruction of Hazor, for which no other group has claimed dominance.
It is a conceit when the Them versus US mentality is applied to issues that are much more complex than is being considered.
That was a problem that always made me wonder. Bronze age weaponry and had a fairly short life span. For a nation to arm itself it had to have either a patron state or internal resources and infrastructure. Where did the Israelites obtain the weaponry/armor/horses/ leather/ supply train all the logistics of desert or semi-arid warfare? Just as Americans are very very very sparing of the help that the French gave in money/arms/men/ naval power. I would imagine that Israel's conquest was done with a lot of help from a southern power as a buffer against some Sea Peoples settlement. Just a thought.
Even with the rabbinic dating, it does not correlate the building of Pi Rameses to the Exodus and the Ahmose Stele relates the same general events as that indicated in the Old Testament at the beginning of the Exodus.
Only if you believe in the plagues and not even then, because the stele only seems to describe a particularly catastrophic flood (which is not one of the ten plagues).