I definitely liked the vid, but as for Jimmy's plan (I didn't think of the water issue, so props to that) The big logistical issue I saw with a long-term plan was simple: Steel and repairs. Because yeah, things break, and you need to make repairs, and with the staff of creation acting as a battery, you can't just wave a wand and to create more materials to fix things when they break, like say, the enviromental shield. ....But, as for the water-issue, it is plausible that Jimmy's plan was to use the Winter Maiden's elemental magic to whip up a ton of ice and melt it to make water.
@@AnonEcho98 Yup, their logistical situation is absolutely nightmarish and I don't envy how desperate Jimmy is for him to consider his plan viable. As for the Maiden powers, I'm not sure how much a newly minted Maiden could do. It'd be better than nothing, but I don't think it'd be enough to meet the agricultural and drinking demands for a small city.
@@CrumblingCube Yeah, no, Jimmy was definitely at the breaking point, even before the betryals of trust reared their ugly heads, good intentions not withstanding in the slightest. Yeah, definitely not the best plan, but then again... Jimmy was at the ends of his rope, so he might've genuinely considered that as an option.... or he was banking on the small bit of weather manipulation we saw Amber and Raven do being able to pull some clouds up to Atlas to make harvesting water easier, possibly working on it while the supplies lasted.
I look at the thumbnail and I start thinking about Ironwood’s plan to desperately save Atlas from coronavirus by distancing the kingdom into the air with gravity dust while Salem invades to continue the spread 😂
For character like ironwood, to be afraid but must swallow their emotion because of their position and responsibility to the people as well one of the face of leaders(not the most liked, aside shooting oscar) he's shown his initiative to do what's need to be done even though it's going to back lash him. Wither his action or intention, even logic are reasonable or not. I like ironwood he's the most human in the show or rather what human are when so much are weigh on your shoulders as well the bad to cruel choices presented in front of them.
You're kidding right he speaks of trust but offers non. he speaks of faith in allies but has non himself. He speaks of sacrifice but in the end he has made non himself. And above all he speaks in having I clear head and using logic and reason but in reality he's no better them a frighten Mutt. So do tell me how is the great general Ironwood right?
@@kishinasura1989 your right! , he spoke these things, he also tried what he preached, and failed! And the comparison of a 'frighten mutt' is expected from someone cornered and too scared to realize who one harms either to themselves or others, acting out wouldn't be surprising(anyone scared shitless would lose it in a heart beat, i know i would under pressure). Ironwood isn't right by the choices he made, but i can't automatically presumed he's wrong either. Also 'great' a bit much, for me personally he's just a flawed man with a title and a shit ton of paranoia.
@Kishin Asura ... Someone must be blind, cause someone didn't notice that when the good general tried all that shit it failed fucking horribly. Speak the truth? Trust his allies? They sold him out to a unknown who was speaking pretty words cause he had some bad press and had then arrested initially for illegally crossing a border, and violating tons of laws. As for not sacrificing anything himself... we're talking about the same General right? The one who lost his only remaining arm just to stall Salem's plans? He didn't even fucking end them considering Watts was imprisoned instead of killed, cause you can't trust RWBY writers to properly handle a badass villain exit without a body. Ironwood legitmately tried to kill Oscar before he's presumably gonna kill Watts, so yeah.
@@firstcaptainvaleriusrensor463 in war? No it isn't it's expected Also physical sacrifice is different for the emotional and mental sacrifice witch because of his semblance he's now more mentally a robot then penny was
Ironically, one of the stipulations of Salem's Immortality is "as long as she walks Remnant's Surface", so her getting flung into space along with Atlas may have very well killed her.
I have a question. Under the conditions that Ironwood's plan succeeds and Atlas is lifted high above the clouds, instead of sending a fleet to ask for help and troops and supplies, couldn't the general afterwards continue with his original plan of restoring global communications, by using either the Amity arena or Atlas itself as a communication tower, tell the world about Salem, explain Atlas's situation, then ask for help? Ozpin already has people in Vacuo and Vale, and so does Team RWBY (thank you, Sun); couldn't they come out and corroborate the general's words?
They'd give up control of Amity when they ascend, and Salem would likely have it destroyed if she ever found out the tower's purpose. As for converting Atlas into one, that's feasible, but comes at considerable risk to gather the construction materials, and then we have to factor in fuel and ammo again for those runs. At that point it'd be faster and lower cost to send runners. You could still work on the tower, resources permitting. I don't know how much sway Team RWBY has to the average person. Ironwood had sway, because Robyn basically had him under oath on live TV. Assuming the people in Vacuo are still loyal to Ozpin, that may not matter since they could exert their influence like Ironwood did.
@@floricel_112 That is a possibility of course. A fast moving small ship like the Manta would have a better chance. Its best chance would be if Ren were on board masking them.
Why wouldn’t they send amity up as well? it’s possible that it is already capable to be sent up (as they have been planning on doing so for weeks and in volume 3 it seemed to be able to float high in the atmosphere already we just don’t know if that was a high as it could go) and then they could finish the communication tower while it’s up and away from Grimm. They would just have to hurry and get it up before Salem’s Grimm get to it
His plan is flawed, but I still like it over what team RWBY wanted. Crumbling cube, if you read this, a video analyzing team RWBYs plan (standing their ground against Salem and her forces) would be a nice compliment to this video (showing both sides) I know this one would be more difficult with all the unknowns (whale Grimm, # of monkey Grimm, etc) but I think it could be doable if you want to
She struggled with a Grimm a quarter of the size of the whale Grimm. Plus I don’t think ruby will be able to just silver eye Salem she’s to smart and experienced to let ruby get the best of her. I think my problem is that I think using amity arena is no longer an option Salem is here now and there’s no way they are defending that while Atlas is trying to finish the communication tower (which on its own could take days). Team RWBY is just taking the moral high road and while they are trying to save everyone, no amount of plot armor can save them. Ironwood sees that and is trying his best to do what he can with the cards he is dealt. I think the story could have written so much better with the two moral paths it seems like CRWBY just painted the main cast as saints while making Ironwood evil for no reason except to show team RWBY is always right
@@BengFT12 I agree. this is a Damn if you do. Damn if you don't scenario. The Kubayashi Maru scenario. The Standing Ground alone is not a viable option.... The "better" option is for Atlas and Mantle to withstand the siege, and either getting everyone who can to evacuate with part of the military or get reinforcements.... Both are dubious if the Atlas military can hold, or even reinforcements can even be sent.
Konstellashon .................... and ironwood......... doesn’t??? They both have the same goal, to beat Salem, but they have to very different viewpoints on how to do it. More specifically, they have two different viewpoints on how to get through the imminent attack from Salem’s army.
YES YES YES YES *YES!* With the depth of nuance you've put into analyzing Ironwood's plan and proper recognition paid to Salem's skillful handling of the chess game that was Volume 7, I'm legit hyped for the rest of the "What Ironwood REALLY Thinks" series!...
You bring up some very important points in the long term, however, there's very little we know about Salem's combat prowess. Vale basically fell and now Mantle is falling with Salem not even being there. This time, she's *actually* there. The only info we have on her abilities is that she can control Grimm, and that she's apparently a powerful sorcerer. Standing their ground gives the group an all or nothing decision that not only puts Atlas and Mantle in the balance, but the world. Given that the Atlesiean airfleet couldn't even repel the attack in Volume 7, it may be hoping for too much. In my own personal opinion, I would have compromised with team RWBY. Evacuate Mantle, stand your ground, and keep working on Amity Tower. If they cannot hold out, then save as many lives as possible, then raise Atlas. Either side of this plan is a win, because Salem does not get her hands on the staff.
Salem can’t be killed, keeps a cool head, has magic and have very little humanity, but she can feel pain and a dangerous temper. Also this might be speculation but her body is Grimm and still might be harmed by sliver eyes. There a reason why she killed them in the past and as we saw from the Sea Grimmzilla not all Grimm vanish but get incase probably being tombed, the only problem is that she can easily break out or turn into ash but then immediately regenerate. Salem is unkillable but not unbeatable.
Considering she went into the Grimm pool it stands to reason that Salem has turned herself into a sort of Grimm hybrid. So she would be vulnerable to the silver eyes and Ruby May be able to beat her. There are still problems though. 1) Ruby’s skill. As we saw with the Grimmzilla Ruby is still not masters her ability. She was able to petrify most of it but not all still needed Cordovan to hit the final blow. Ruby needs to master her silver eyes before she can even attempt to face Salem as if she fails then there’s no other silver eyes people that could try this again. 2) Salem herself. Salem is incredibly powerful and isn’t likely to just stand there and let herself be hit with the silver eyes. Between her Grimm, her loyalists, and her magic on its own would be hard to fight. But Salem can fight mentally just as well as physically. Shown how she was able to shader Ruby’s confidence with just a sentence. So she also knows how how to undermine the silver eyes as well.
For me the theory that ozpin accidentally created a new breed of warriors with out knowing at first and Salem wanting to hurt him bad by killing his descendents one by one.
Salem doesn't always keep a cool head and has been shown to be fairly cocky at times. Team RWBY and company could figure out how to take advantage of that and force Salem to make a hasty retreat because she let her overwhelming advantage get to her head
@@KeeKage37 Salem might just be cocky enough to allow Ruby to use her silver eyes thinking it won't matter. Even if it doesn't affect her it could still turn her giant zeppelin grimm to stone and cause it to crash at terminal velocity. Salem might recover but she'd need to retreat because it seems like a good number of ground grimm would also be kept inside it to drop into Atlas that would also be destroyed. Salem is powerful and unkillable, but that doesn't mean that she can't let that get to her head and get her ass kicked.
Bear in mind, as explained in the video, this is a hypothetical situation where Team RWBY goes with Ironwood's plan, meaning the battle between the Ace Ops and RWBY never happened, and Clover is never given the order to arrest Qrow leading to the battle that got him killed
7:04 this is one of the reasons I think that Raven has chosen such a terrible course of action for herself. Unless I misunderstand her power, if she had someone she was “anchored” to she could at minimum transport messages between two points, and based on V5 people and materials can also pass through her portals.
The one bit of your alternate history pitch I might contradict would be Neo still capturing the lamp. She managed to succeed in part because ORNJ had to deal with avoiding / running from Atlas security after reclaiming the lamp. Without that additional distraction they would be much less likely to lose Oscar in their sprinting, be fired upon by security, or end up pinned down. Of course Neo is all sorts of clever, so she might still manage to make it work.
Yeah that's a good point, I was a bit 50/50 on that one myself. In the grand scheme of things it didn't really matter in regards to Ironwood's plan, so I caved in to my Neo bias and gave her the win.
One point regarding Vacuo: the earlier occupation by Mantle basically strip-mined most of the region, meaning that both Dust and other supplies would actually be quite scarce...
At this point in the story, it seems that the staff is going to end up being removed from Atlas no matter what. This of course would result in Atlas plummeting to the ground and crushing Mantle underneath. The way I see this playing out is that Team RWBY, along with the Winter Maiden, will attempt to kite Salem away from the city long enough for the military to evacuate everyone. Once they accomplish this, they will make their way back to secure the staff, and use it's power to crush Salam and her forces in between the two cities. What do you all think of this outcome? P.S. I would just like to say that this theory was made using the information we have based on Ruby's personality and morality. She isn't the type of person to leave innocent people to die, and this plan sounded crazy enough in my head that she would probably come up with it. I also feel as though the writers for the show wouldn't give a 100% happy ending to this ark given all that has happened in volume 7. This is where the fact that all of the citizens in both Atlas and Mantle would now be refugees and would most likely have to seek refuge in Vacuo, as it is the last stronghold still standing.
With the 20/20 hindsight provided by Volume 8, I can say that several things were discovered that generally move things in favor of RWBY's plan (though Ironwood's also gains a few points). In Ironwood's favor, we do confirm that Atlas has farmland on its floating section, which makes the "eternal floating city in the clouds" plan slightly more reasonable. We also learned more about how the Staff of Creation works, though I still don't fully understand how Ironwood planned to use it unless it was just to make an infinite amount of Dust (which would take care of the water, levitation and fuel problems, and make eternal siege much more bearable). I don't quite know how this would work with the "make only one thing at a time" rule, unless it was only making a Dust-making machine (the Dust might vanish if the staff was used again, but if it's already been burned...). Additionally, since the staff requires precise blueprints for whatever you are trying to do, Atlas would be a kingdom quite capable of taking advantage of that (with its famed scientists and all that), perhaps making endless giant dust bombs to harass Salem, or more advanced one-off weapon. In RWBY's favor: Salem has at least one airship capable of reaching high altitudes, and Cinder was able to fly at and fight at Amity's minimum broadcast altitude. So Salem could definitely get some powerful agents onto a high-flying Atlas, where all they would have to do is weaken the levitation enough to bring the city within range of conventional Grimm. (Or just free Watt, who could easily tear Ironwood's tech apart from the inside.) The military and huntsmen could obviously try to stop this, but the point is that Salem is not as impotent in the upper atmosphere as Ironwood believes. (Not that he'd have any way of knowing this.) Atlas has hardlight shields which allowed it to withstand a couple of days of Grimm assault. Since RWBY's principle demand was not so much "don't move the city" as "don't move the city until Mantle is evacuated", the ability to hold out for a few days makes a big difference. (Though I suppose it is unclear if ships could get in or out of the city with the shields up.) The Schnee Dust Company had loads of parked, autonomous airships that could be used to speed up the evacuation if anyone realized they were there. Ironwood's techs were able to throw together a working tactical nuke-like dust bomb in about a day. Even if they weren't able to make more (or make them regularly), that still gives Atlas a weapon that could put a real dent in Salem's forces. Imagine this scenario: Ironwood and Team RWBY agree to work together to defend the city (maybe for only a few days). Weiss or Whitley realize the SDC ships are available and use them to help the evacuation of Mantle (and also let the military pilots rest). The hardlight shields hold Salem off for a couple of days while she waits for her siegebreaker worms to arrive. Ironwood's techs build the big bomb. The bomb is placed on a shuttle with Jaune and Ren on it, whose Semblances allow the ship to sneak past the Grimm and plant the bomb inside the whale. The bomb destroys or fatally wounds the whale, probably kills Salem's human agents (maybe not Cinder) and incapacitates her while the military and huntsmen unleash a massive counterattack against the disorganized Grimm horde, scattering it. Salem will reform in a few days, but her army will be gone, Amity Tower will be online and reconnecting humanity, and Atlas may have moved outside of her immediate reach, with Mantle's population safeguarded as well. No silver eyes or Staff of Creation abuse or any other deus ex machina idealism stuff required - just things Ironwood and RWBY knew or could easily discover they had at their disposal. The sad thing is, all the pieces for a great victory were in Ironwood and RWBY's hands (even after the Volume 7 ending), but they just couldn't work together to use them, and a lot of people paid the price for it. (That's not necessarily a sign of bad writing or anything - it was the flaws of characters on both sides of the debate that kept them apart. The best works of tragedy are the ones where the tragedy seems completely avoidable, but character flaws cause it to happen anyways.)
6:26 Plus I'd imagine that once word of Ironwood abandoning half of his Kingdom to die to save Atlas got out, the other Kingdoms would be even MORE wary if not outright enraged at how callous Ironwood was, and might see it as a template for how he would treat their own Kingdoms if they offered him aid and Salem decided to attack them. Thus only further aiding Salem since it would irreparably damage relations to the point of no return.
The thing I see most people disagreeing with Ironwood on is that they seem to think he wants to abandon Remnant completely which... no. And I've said it before and I'll say it again. Atlas being the only kingdom with an army will only make conquering the world easier for Salem. I really can't see Team RWBY saving mantle at the beginning of V8.
Yes! That's what I was always saying (even though my conclusion was a bit different). Setting yourself up for a siege isn't gonna help anyone. Although my conclusion was, that stand your ground was the best option, it's still nice to hear someone argue about that with anything other than pure morality or emotion.
...I'd like to know the Grimm whale's battle capabilities before planning on anything. What can it do. What CAN'T it do. How high can it fly, how fast it is, how tough it is. How viable (and costly) would a test battle be in order to learn all of these? Also, it has a big yellow glowy thing right under it's skin. Can it be a potential weak spot? How thick is its skin around that area? Does it have the anatomy of a regular whale scaled up to that size (before poofing once killed)? If so, can an infiltration team be potentially formed in order to enter the whale's mouth via airship (under the guise of being eaten), reach what I'm assuming is the Grimm's core then destroying from the inside?
I think that General Ironwood is doing the best he can remember that he is not only the soldier but a citizen and a patriot who want's to avoid the fate of beacon. He was just shellschocked by the events that took place there and his thoughts on "what if other kingdooms will attack them" of course we as a viewer know that they were rigged but other people might not know it. He wants to do what he has to no matter the cost. I feel bad for him but he is still my #2 in show (#1 will always be Qrow)
I was actually having around the same thought when it came to getting supplies, though I was more focused on the dust part but still. If I was Salem I would have flying grimm patrolling areas where atlesian (sorry if i misspell) airships would come down to get supplies and take them out giving no quarter. I would also find every possible area that has or could have a dust mine and either destroy it or take the dust for myself. This would effectively shut Atlus down. Also even if they could get secure supply lines between a dust mine and the city who would work in the mines? It is given to us that much of Mantel had yet to be evacuated and that is where all the work force lived, and I highly doubt that the upper echelon of Atlas would agree to work in the mines, "that dangerous and dirty work is what fanus are for"(want to be very clear this is just my interpretation of their thoughts NOT MY OWN). And if Ironwood tried to force them to work it would definitely lead to infighting.
Why couldn't they just lift up atlas AND mantle? Just create schematics for a larger version of the device thats carrying atlas right now. This will have RWBY from rebelling against the government
What about this: rising the relic, Atlas can fly right? So long story short: LET'S PICK UP ATLAS, AND PUSH IT AWAY! Attach some engines or some Other form of propulsion to Atlas (perhaps they can even use the relic for this). Load up all civilians and supplies you can find and use the city as a massive lifeboat/flying citadel and fly closer to a place where you can more easily reasupply or gain resources and warriors from.
Yeah, and James never said they'd stay that high forever. Maybe if they gave him time to think, he'd have said the next step is to go to Vacuo or Mistral.
Ironwood in volume 7 isn't right but isn't wrong, he knows that he can't defeat selem in the current situation of his army and is presenting a definite way to save everyone in atlas. WHILE Team rwby aren't wrong but aren't right. They want to risk everyone to save everyone.
I broadly liked your analysis, but I have a few slight disagreements. Firstly, your break down on the long-term is sound but the communcation issue still applies to a potential evacuation of the Atlesian army. It also means they'd lose all the military infrastructure and would have to sacrifice almost all Atlesians in addition to the people of Mantle. The only benefit I can see to abandoning Atlas entirely is that it's would be faster and thus let them set up for a second defense elsewhere, but if they can't do it now and the other kingdoms don't have a standing army I'm not sure what the benefit would be. The second plan of trying to escape with the relic and maiden is riskier, because if the diversion fails they're guaranteed to lose all of their forces and there's also the risk of the evacuees being intercepted. It's hard to say if the potential for them to escape outweighs the risk of losing all of Atlas. Forcing a last stand relies on so many assumptions, like you mentioned. Silver eyes or conventional attacks working on Salem, them being able to destroy the whale, Salem being able to be incapacitated, etc. All the options are bad, because the riskier the option the more potential for success. It's definitely a hard call and I appreciate that you were able to analyse the problem from multiple angles. I'm expecting that RWBY will be given the moral highground because of the show's past record of letting the heroes always get away with acting one-sidedly in morally gray conflicts. Their plan will be successful, or at least, Ironwood will be a failure in comparison to them.
It'd be sad but penny could pull an iron giant and launch the relic and herself into space depending on her father's building capabilities it might not even be a straight up sacrifice if he can outfit her to survive the cold
Aaron Stephens I thought that it was established that nobody on Remnant had the technology able to get to space and that all projects attempting to do so have failed?
@@edgehead2695 I dont really rember them ever mentioning space though I do highly doubt they've been but a powered up penny with the relics help could possibly get the job done
Aaron Stephens I also believe that with the relics (more specifically, the Staff of Creation,) this could be possible. As for the mention of space-travel, look no further than World of Remnant: Episode 7.
In all honestly there really is no perfect strategy for dealing with Salem's invasion of Atlas but I feel that it's easy to get so trapped in the idea that the 'main situation' is impossible that people forget that there are other situations that may benefit from taking a 'doomed' action. Or: The current situation may be untenable but rather than trying to 'win' anyway, one must instead willingly take a loss that round to avoid losing the game completely. Oddly it is team RWBY's plan that does this better than Ironwood's for all the talk of 'hard choices' - The military and huntsmen standing their ground, sacrificing themselves as all the civilians get moved onto Atlas as Amity Tower is frantically completed will likely result in Salem's army being heavily depleted - Her forces may never run out but it does seem to take her time to build up the numbers we see here, and that time is NEEDED for the other Kingdoms to build up their forces and get ready to weather the storm (possibly to wind up doing the same thing as Atlas in the end but well that's the endless fight of the Grimm and humanity for you). Salem's immortal factor is fearsome but all alone she can't stop people scattering in all directions, nor can she so quickly overwhelm the other Kingdoms, who if the CCT network gets back up will have forewarning (something that could lead to the unification of the remaining world against this threat as they learn of Salem and that Atlas was framed for the fall of Beacon - incidentally putting Oz that much closer to his end goal leading to less chance of insta-death for all of humanity should the Relics end up together somehow). For an example of effective scattering: In one ship the Winter Maiden protected by the Ace Ops, in another her beloved younger sister and her friends, all with dozens of other ships with civilians going every which way protected by the army. Salem scores many kills this way but she can't just swat them all least the Winter Maiden powers go to someone random halfway across the world and if her forces are weakened enough she might only be able to target so many ships. ...The Maiden and her successor may require a suicide option just to be safe though. Forewarning is CRITICAL for Vaccuo in particular as there is both a Maiden and the Relic of Destruction there, and if the Winter Maiden manages to leave Atlas/Mantle after the Relics of Creation and Knowledge have been sealed in the Atals vault then Atlas falling, while still horrific, achieves the goal of protecting them from Salem just as readily as floating Atlas up high as the Vaults fortunately do not require living protection, only that the Maiden does not open the door. While it is unlikely that anyone who remains in Atlas or Mantle will survive, it does give them the slightest chance of doing so should reinforcements from other Kingdoms arrive in time as well. Conversely Ironwood's plan may save Atlas for a time but it dooms the other Kingdoms leaving the Relic of Destruction(!) in Vaccuo completely unprepared for the full might of Salem's forces, leaves survivors confused and unaware of Salem being the true enemy and has many, Many, MANY long term issues even for just Atlas surviving (water, steel, Dust, food, morale, the chance for the Maiden powers eventually going to someone random down on the surface, etc) plus issues of Salem turning out to actually have high flying Grimm she's just never bothered fielding before, being possibly able to just use her magic to get up there solo to destroy their food/water supplies, or worst case scenario: After a short trip to Vaccuo she gets her hands on the Relic of Destruction and one-shots Atlas out of the sky in a single shot... Aka Ironwood's plan is at best a pyhrric victory which loses everybody everywhere the war unless the people surrender to Salem hoping for mercy. =(
You forget that Food, and Water is still needed. Atlas can only hold out till that is gone. And the more people loaded onto Atlas the less supplies there are. Once the Supplies are gone, all Hell will break loose, which would attract more Grimm. They also have to have a ready supply of Dust to use their Weapons. Which means they need Factories, and ready Supply Lines. Also what happens when all the Huntsman die? Will they start conscription? Four Teenage girls don't know the first thing about this. They are driven by emotions over logic. Team RWBY's plan has more risk of failure. You also have to remember, Salem can divert forces to form a Blockade if they wait too long. Which means they will have no chance of escape. And if Atlas falls it would take Mantle along with it. A combination of Kinetic Force, and the City's Reactors detonating. Ironwood's decision is most Logical.
Heather .Royall I don’t understand how this makes Team RWBY’s plan any good. Mantle and Atlas just so we can warn Vacuo of Salem’s arrival. Would that matter, beacon is in ruins and would be of no help, Mistral is in chaos and would be of no help, especially with almost all their huntsmen dead. I don’t see how Vacuo stands any better chance than Atlas. After Mantle and Atlas are left in the same state as beacon, quite frankly it doesn’t matter how long it takes form Salem to rebuild her army. It’s not like she has a time limit.
@@fenrisvermundr2516 Uh huh... Looks like you missed the core point of my post completely. (My fault probably. I'm not good at cutting my thoughts into easy to read slices and I get derailed by 'alternate options' easily.) My post was pointing out that no matter what *anyone* does Atlas and Mantle are likely completely doomed, and that people should instead be focusing on the big picture - AKA The rest of the World. Or: To clarify - What is The Goal? 1) If your primary goal is to protect the people solely of Atlas for a short time then Ironwood's plan is the best, no questions asked. 2) If your goal is to protect the people solely of Atlas for a long time the Ironwood's plan is 'Alright-ish but with very serious flaws that must be recognised'. Reasoning: An unknown amount of Salem's forces are already in the city meaning sabotage and inflaming of tensions are likely. Combined with Ironwood forcefully seizing control via Martial Law and you have prime grounds for riots and civil war. If anything (like say a rioter or a certain Fall Maiden) damages any those 'critical-to-survival systems' like the food and water stores things get BAD. Water, Dust and iron will eventually run out no matter what happens (as this video pointed out), it leaves zero chances of allies coming to their rescue, it dooms any attempt to unite the people of the world for as long as Atlas is in isolation, and worst of all it allows Salem to do whatever the hell she wants completely unchecked - If she's not having to fight off foes right here in the now she can go off, grab the other Relics, come back and nuke Atlas out of the sky with the Relic of Destruction. 3) If the goal is to protect the Relic of Creation or to prevent Atlas (the landmass) from falling then Ironwood's plan is again 'Alright-ish but with serious flaws that must be recognised'. Reasoning: Atlas floats thanks to the Relic. If the Vault is untouched then the landmass will not fall, full stop. The Vault can *only* be opened by the Winter Maiden. Using the Relic requires opening the Vault which puts it -and all of Atlas- in critical danger during the time the door is open, and if they should be fortunate enough to be able to get in there, raise Atlas and lock it up again without anything going wrong, the Winter Maiden is still nearby in the city with an unknown number of skilled foes at least one of which can steal the Maiden powers. Combine that with the issues listed in the sections above and even without Grimm or Salem to fight the Atlas Military is likely to be stretched and easily subverted, allowing for frequent assassination attempts (and that's without taking Neo into account - I'm not going to judge Ironwood's plan on a character he doesn't know exists). Alternative option: Use huntsmen/specialists to force a hole any potential blockades of Grimm and get the Winter Maiden (optional: plus any other ships full of people that can be arranged) right the hell away from Solitas with all due haste, with a possible Maiden successor in a separate ship. If this is done early enough then Salem will not have time to set up any blockades and this allows the huntsmen/specialists to focus on fighting to defend what's left of Mantle and Atlas; odds are the Kingdom and either of its peoples will not survive the siege but there is still a chance they might if the evacuees manage to get sufficient aid in time, and has the added benefit of warning the remaining Kingdoms both of Salem's existence and of Atlas being attacked/destroyed. It ALSO gives time for the Winter Maiden/her possible successor time to practice with their magic turning them from liability into something actually useful. 4) If your goal is to protect all the Relics or the world as a whole then Ironwood's plan is the worst. Reasoning: No word is spread to the rest of the Kingdoms and Salem's army will not have suffered any losses. With Atlas now high in the air and unable to interfere with her plans, Salem can immediately swarm Vaccuo to flush out the Summer Maiden without having to worry about getting distracted by the Atlas Military attacking her from behind and allowing the Summer Maiden to slip away in the chaos (given Vaccuo's rep as a chaotic land of thieves it's likely that fighters there specialise in gorrila tactics and Salem like needs both the element of surprise and the power of an overwhelming first strike in order to smash and grab the Maiden without her being squirreled away). If the Summer Maiden is taken then Salem just has to pry open Shade Academy's Vault and she has full access to the Relic of Destruction, which judging by how KingOfVale!Oz used it in the Great War to force the other three nations to their knees in sheer terror... If Salem gets the Relic of Destruction she wins. Full stop. Even Atlas up in the sky won't be safe (in the worst case of this just one swing of the Sword of Destruction and bamn, no more floating Atlas in the upper atmosphere). Also unification of the World becomes impossible as long as Altas is isolated from the other Kingdoms but egh. Most people don't believe that's possible anyway. ------ So yeah. My takeaway message here this: Atlas's survival does not matter in slightest for any goal other than 'protecting Atlas'. Sure, it's definitely good to try to keep as many people alive as possible but frankly all plans prioritising the safety of the people largely end with everyone dying anyway due to Salem getting her hands on the Relic of Destruction sooner or later, whereas plans that focus on protecting all the Relics and getting the word of Salem's existence/invasion out there to the wider world have a chance of not dooming everything. Both RWBY and Ironwood are (understandably) being horribly shortsighted because they are both being emotional and wishing with all their hearts to save lives (Ironwood is merely is laser focused on Atlas because he doesn't feel he can save anything else). But regardless of what either group thinks, when the plans are put side by side team RWBY's plan has less chance of dooming the entire world to Salem's tender mercies just by sheer virtue of *maybe* killing enough Grimm to delay Salem's invasion of Vaccuo a little and possibly getting word out to the other Kingdoms so that they aren't screwed when Salem turns her gaze on them next. Seriously. This situation sucks for everyone involved, and Ironwood is far from keeping his cool right now (it's understandable why people fall for the facade but it's like Raven and Adam - his actions across his various appearances reveal the lie). Other people have probably done better breakdowns of this aspect of things and it's kind of off topic but if nothing else one should keep in mind he's either on ALL the painkillers right now or (even worse for cognitive stability) hasn't had ANY for that horrific arm injury. It's frankly a miracle the guy is even capable of talking coherently right now let along expecting him to be making the correct judgement calls for the survival of the entire world. ----- Also because I have to ask: Why are you talking as if conscription is 'not' an option here? We're legit discussing plans that involve leaving thousands to die. Ethics are out the window at this point. (Honestly the real question is not would they conscript or not, the question is do they have the time to formalise it as opposed to just going door to door, desperately shoving guns into people's hands and telling them to do their best not to die.)
@@kumbi8368 Looks like my previous reply to this got deleted somehow... =c Ok. Probably won't be as thought out as my original reply but: This is kind of long but I'll try to make it as straight forward as I can: 1) Given what we know about the people of Vaccuo, it is they likely specialise in guerrilla warfare tactics (hit and run, hiding, using environment to their advantage, etc). Such groups have amazing lasting power even again more powerful forces once they get going and can stall for ages. Using this type of tactic it is likely they can prevent Salem from getting their hands on the Summer Maiden (aka the key to the instant lose condition). HOWEVER that is only if they know the Summer Maiden must be protected and don't all get blitzed by a massive alpha strike from all directions (like by say a giant army of Grimm lead by Salem). 2) Salem's Grimm, while endless in spawning (or at least we're assuming so for the sake of this argument), can only breed so fast - the main evidence being that she hasn't just mowed down all the Kingdoms with armies of this size already. 3) Salem needs an absolutely massive army of Grimm like the one we see approaching Atlas if she's to ensure the destruction of Vaccuo and the capture of the Summer Maiden (to claim the Relic of Destruction) before the people of Vaccuo can go to ground and start pulling guerrilla warfare stuff on her, stalling her out potentially for years. --- The reason Salem does not want to risk a stall war with Vaccuo is that Vaccuo is likely meant to be her master stroke, in which she seizes the Relic of Destruction and uses it like KingOfVale!Oz did back in the Great War to break the will of the Kingdoms, forcing them to obey or instantly die. And given her immortality that means if she gets her hands on the Relic of Destruction she wins. Forever. To get to the point where this master stroke is possible Salem had to set up a number of things: First she had to ensure Oz couldn't rally his Ozluminati so she has him killed and destroys the CCT network (Vale). Second she had to ensure no one could predict her true target so she sent numerous distractions (Cinder, Watts, the White Fang) to Mistral (aka the other side of the world) after leaving plenty of 'leads' there at the Vytal Festival (aka that's why Cinder openly claims on the broadcast she's from Mistral. It's more misdirection) to cause havoc and attempt to steal the Relic - aka things the Ozluminati cannot dare let happen even if they suspect it is a distraction. Third she needs Atlas not to interfere with her attack on Vaccuo: To this end she took notice of certain behavior patterns, namely General Ironwood's need for control and paranoia, and begin deliberately psychologically targeting him and his nation, the most obvious methods being framing Atlas for the attack on Beacon and flashing that Black Queen chess piece symbol everywhere by Watt's hacking program. This fear she intentionally instilled in him caused him to set up the embargo, cutting off contact with the outside world and preventing Atlas from providing any kind of meaningful aid to Vaccuo before she could crush it in that single alpha strike. Something that Oz's re-emergence threatened and is why Salem after hearing he's heading for Atlas she switched targets from Vaccuo to Atlas in V6 (or as Cinder puts it: "The timeline has changed"). (Side note: I'm not sure if she predicted the creation of Amity Tower. That was a solid genius idea on Ironwood's part and frankly Salem's worst nightmare at this critical point of the game.) Setting all of this up likely took decades. I'd argue that Salem's likely been trying to set something like this up (all the while breeding the Grimm needed) since the end of the Great War but only now have all the pieces come into place. ...Problem for Salem is, that in order to do all this, she has to expose her existence and that's risky. IF she gets her hands on the Relic of Destruction then it's not a problem. But if Vaccuo manages to squirrel away the Summer Maiden in time and stall things out for too long, this could potentially buy the other Kingdoms the critically needed time (years) needed to recover, during which time news of her existence and that of her followers can spread as common knowledge to those Kingdoms, uniting the people against her and crippling her ability to infiltrate and sabotage them again. AKA if she loses this chance for any reason (like say, not having all the Grimm she needs to ensure the mass Grimm attack against Vaccuo goes off without a hitch before the Kingdoms can reunite again and share info) the war between her and Oz goes on for yet another round as opposed to finally ending. And Salem seemed pretty tired at the thought of having to 'press on' in V6. ---- Essentially: Both Ironwood and Team RWBY's plans suck because this situation is nigh unstoppable but whereas Ironwood's plan is only good for ensuring Atlas's SHORT TERM survival and allows Salem's plans to go off completely uninterrupted with only a small delay, Team RWBY's plan has a small chance of disrupting Salem's plans for Vaccuo by forcing her to spend critically needed time spawning more Grimm or risk not having quite enough Grimm when she heads for Vaccuo by the sheer virtue of actually killing Grimm (especially the fliers and the whale). - Also, this is not strictly their plan but Team RWBY did bring up discussion of finishing Amity Tower while holding their ground. They intended it to get reinforcements but while that's probably a doomed goal, it's still an excellent thing to do because it screws up Salem's plans completely (as the people of Vaccuo would get advance warning, allowing them to set up traps, scatter their people, warns the Summer Maiden to be anywhere but here, etc, all while informing the entire world of her and her follower's existence, letting everyone know Atlas was innocent of the Fall of Beacon) thus setting her victory back by years if not decades. And in the war of Oz and humanity against Salem and the Grimm, that IS a victory for Oz and the both of them know it.
Just thought of this, but Ozpin magic is running on fumes, so how much does Salem have in her tanks, and does the Grimification affect this, as it may give some link to the God of Darkness which was stated to have gifted the humans magic, making this more likely.
Ozpin's issues regarding magic stems from the fact that he gave the vast majority of it away to the original Four Maidens, and then he gave a little more away when he gave the Branwen twins their bird shape-shifting powers. So the only reason he's running on fumes is because he keeps giving his magic away. Salem hasn't been doing that as far as we know, so I highly doubt she's gotten any weaker than she was during the time of the first humanity.
@@8elementallordsHonestly I feel the Grimm goo being clearly self sustaining magic from yee old days may have given her infinite Regen because think about the fact that it's magic was strong enough to scar her immortal tissue
This video just confirm my thoughts that the heroes in this history are either very dumb, impulsive or completly naive. Like Ruby could just pretend to be OK with Ironwoods idea to prevent a fight in the worts posible moment and that would give them enought time to help Penny and prevent Winter to be so heavily wounded, Qrow and Clover would not fight and the later would still be alive, and lastly reach team ALPN in time helping them fight off Neo and keep the relic and them scaped later, but intead she star a fight with the Ace Ops and now Ironwoods bets troops are knock out of the fight, heavily wounded or dead and there is no even Jaune around to recharged and heal everyone to be in fghting condition. No wonder why Salem always have and easy time if her only problem is her own subordinates doing something stupid and ruin everything, she just have to pop out her head an everyone star making very bad choices, Ozma sorry for saying this buddy but you need to star choosing better alies
On the other hand I think it's reasonnable to say, on Ace Ops side, that trying to arrest RWBY and friends was a terrible idea. You're going to have protests no matter what. Let them help Mantle and you don't lose any power in the Ace Ops vs RWBY fight. Then again, Robin effed up on the Atlas Airship by attacking Clover, but Clover could've waited or dodge orders like: "nah, fam, I'm not going to arrest you, go defend your case. I just want to put Tyrian in prison right now." Or, you know, STOP ATTACKING QROW AS SOON AS TYRIAN COMES INTO THE FIGHT ! (Being able to rank the level of threats and dealing accordingly would be a pretty basic competence for an Ace Ops leader, wouldn't it ?)
@@sasugaoresama2 Yeah I feel you there bro I was wonderring the same thing when I saw that part of the episode, like what the hell dude you have a pycho serial killer with an inasane fighting ability and a former ally that it somewhat in odds with you but still ready to talk that is Qrow, I think the anwser of qho is the bigger threat is clear, and please don´t make me star with Qrow and his mind blowing desition of accepting help and them be surprise at the result, I could just make a facepalm and be sorry for team STQR and specially the one who was his parnther because he or she has to deal with this idiot, or maybe stop drinking made him an idiot..... sigh I don´t know
I agree it was stupid for Qrow and Clover to fight, especially when Mr. Psycho Killer is just fine and Robyn is almost dead. In Clover's defense though, he did try to arrest Qrow calmly and urged him to come calmly to help Robyn
@@sasugaoresama2 "Let them help Mantle" Except Ruby loudly declared in her scroll broadcast that she was going to try to stop Ironwood from getting to the Staff. Not going to Mantle themselves unless they force the Atlas to stay, too.
@@andresfernandez1756 I'd recommend watching the fight again. From the time Tyrian joined the fight he wasn't fighting at his best, jumping around and just occasionally hitting either Clover or Qrow as apposed to going fully in like his first fight with Qrow. It makes sense that Clover would think of Qrow as the bigger threat and not adapt to the changing situation. Qrow on the other hand, was trying to fight off both of them; he was going to lose if the fight continued that way so it makes sense that he'd go with the cease fire from Tyrian. And on Qrows decision, him and Tyrian weren't helping each other in the fight, they didn't even fully stop fighting, they just agreed to stop gunning for each other until Clover was dealt with. Also, when Qrow *spoilers* knocks out Clover's aura it's because he thinks that Tyrian is already dealt with, unfortunately (get it.... cause w/o Clover's aura Qrow's semblance is in full effect) his bonds didn't hold up
Your concern for water is offset by the winter maiden literally being able to create Ice without any need for dust. It’s literally an Ice Machine without any problem. We already have a basis for utilizing natural body heat produced to melt Ice, so that shouldn’t be a problem. Your forgetting that Ironwood planned on telling the world about Salem. So I am Quite sure they would welcome any of Ironwood’s fleet for being notified of what they are facing. To further that, assuming they are above the clouds, their city can be converted into reestablishing global communications perfectly, something all remnant would be more than willing to pay for their phone plan.
And in the long run (volume 8, as understood through your analysis here), RWBY's opposition to ironwood forced a stand-your-ground situation with fewer resources which could've been available otherwise. A lifted Atlas may have been safe from Salem's opening assault (grim river spout), all aspects of the siege lay unchanged. Salem's eventual boarding party had to be stopped deus ex machina (although it's not out of the question that the bomb would've worked) and even so, both relics were lost, only maintaining hold of the winter maiden.
There is one major flaw that everybody seems to keep forgetting, it has been stated that dust loses its power when it leaves the planets atmosphere. So all the technology that he would be depended on to survive would cease to function. However... *Stands up from the desk* general, I have a plan of action! First focus all main forces on attack, while this is happening a secondary force focuses completely on complete evacuation of the upper and lower cities. At the same time we use the staff to elevate the upper city to a higher altitude. When civilians are at an acceptable distance Penny removes the staff and evaporates from the area at maximum speed in a different direction than the of civilian evacuation. At the same time we are all military forces complete evacuation. The size, density, and speed of the falling city will create an impact with a similar force to a small nuclear bomb eliminating a large number of grim. Afterwards Salem would have to divide her forces between the civilians and military as well as trying to retrieve the staff from penny. Penny would be instructed to rendezvous at a particular location with the staff at a later date.
Yes, it dust does lose power when it leaves the atmosphere... Good thing Ironwood doesn't want Atlas going into space. He only said about lifting the city to the higher layers of atmosphere, he never mentioned leaving it.
@@PPWRUP its stated that dust looses its capabiltiy gradually as it gets closer to the upper bounds of the atmosphere, till it is gone completly when it leaves.. The dust consumption would rise dramatically, or tech woudl just be unusable becase its to inefficent now
My biggest take away from all this is the fact that none of this would have happened if Ruby had been honest with Ironwood from the start. He is a General and would have changed his plans according to the new information he is given. Also, Yang and Black should have captured Robin Hill because she and her Huntresses were stealing from the Military. All in all a great video, I think I'll subscribe!
I find it so annoying that many defend BY choosing to trust Robyn. Hmmm, a person you've never met and know only by rep whom you know for a fact is committing theft, or a general who has been nice and generous to you for over a year? At least they could be told them they told Robyn earlier. Or claim they let her know by accident. Yeah , another lie but at least he feels less betrayed. Ironic
@@konstellashon1364 It really is, not to mention that by stealing from the military Robin should have been disqualified from even entering the election regardless of the reasons!
@@albireotheredguard1599 The only reason she did that was to provide for the people of Mantle. Ironwood keeping people in the dark about what Atlas is using the resources they need for is rubbing Mantle the wrong way. They were probably thinking Atlas is hoarding the resources for themselves. Thus, Robyn and her team took matters into their own hands. Plus the martial law is making things worse. Nora even pointing that the People of Mantle are taking burden because of Ironwood is keeping them in the dark about Salem and the project. Poor or not, Mantle is still part of the kingdom. I don't care if Ironwood and Robyn don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of things. I doubt she'll do anything that would endanger the kingdom by selling all of this info to someone like Salem just to help her people. If you want your people of your kingdom to trust you but you can't trust ALL of them, including the ones below, who can you trust?
You know, it's a good thing that Ironwood didn't leave the Amity Coliseum plans lying around. There's actually a joke I saw on reddit that goes like this: Ironwood, realizing that he left Amity, almost ready to launch, lying around so Salem could follow him: "Oh, fuck."
Disclaimer: Tis a rant. You have been warned. I have already posted this comment on another video, but what other plan is there? Realistically speaking, RWBY's idea to 'stand and fight' will not work. At all. It is synonymous with self-inflicted genocide. There is no victory to be found in their current situation. Saving who they can is quite literally the only option they have left if they actually want to get out of the situation with an outlook for the future. Forget playing into Salem's hands at this point. Forget divide and conquer. Mantle's fate is already sealed. It will be wiped out of existence no matter how they proceed. There is literally nothing anyone can do about it at this point. (Speaking of divide and conquer, you can even argue that RWBY causes the divide with their decision to completely oppose Ironwood.) Yes, RWBY would probably survive the coming battle. Some of the other hunters, too. But all the citizens? All the normal soldiers? The weak? Everyone they want to protect? They are all going to die, swallowed up by the Grimm horde. They won't survive the battle against the army Salem sent their way (with her on the helm), period. The assumption or the believe that they can stop a second and probably even bigger invading army from killing the vast majority of Atlas' and Mantle's populations after already being exhausted from the first is… well… flat out wrong. (Harriet had already mentioned the futility of not retreating from the fight and how it would doom them all. RWBY's and specifically Yang's response and refusal to consider Harriet's argument makes me question their critical thinking.) Its open warfare at this point. A numbers game. An exhausted army sitting in a defensive position, which is about as effective as swiss cheese at this point and has no further strategical value, besieged by a vastly superior foe who is well rested (Can Grimm even suffer fatigue?) and relentless. It does not matter if you can keep 50 Grimm at bay when another 50 slip by and kill those behind you. They can't be anywhere in Mantle and Atlas at once and are running on fumes. No one can beat back Salem herself (as far as they know); she is basically an immortal WMD in this situation. Which means our main cast will not be able to stop the incoming threat and both cities will be razed to the ground with most if not all inhabitants dying. The vast majority of whom they wanted to save will not survive and all of it will be on team RWBY's shoulders. (Or there will be survivors and they will become hostages/slaves/playthings. Which is not any way, shape or form better.) Ruby's idea of holding of the onslaught until Amity is functional is not going to work, either. Even if they manage to hold out that long (and I seriously doubt finishing Amity will take only a couple of hours), does she have any idea how long it takes for the requested help to be organized? Not even mentioning the time it would take for the help to arrive in Atlas, since a large part of it is on another continent? We talk about two weeks, minimum. It will not be anywhere near in time to prevent the genocide. Ironwood's plan: It has a moderate chance of saving a "good" chunk of Atlas' and Mantle's populations (depending on the state of the evacuation) and could likely allow them to do a Patrick and 'take Atlas and push it somewhere else'. Like Vacuo, for example. Also, it would allow them to regroup, recuperate and plan their next steps. For all intents and purposes, this is the best realistic outcome for the situation. (Additionally, Atlas has the CCT Tower on it which would still give them a shot at the Global Communications Project.) RWBY's 'Stand and fight'-idea: If they are lucky, 5-10% of the total populations will survive. The chance is high that in the end our heroes will have to run when they can fight no longer. Of course, they have to take the staff and the winter maiden with them, to prevent Salem from getting the two. However, if they do that Atlas will fall down, crush Mantle and kill everyone remaining on Atlas and in Mantle. Which will happen anyway if Salem gets the staff, something which is more than likely because no one can actually confront and stop her (for she is a walking, talking magical nuke). So, what does team RWBY do? Instead of pushing Ironwood to delay the take-off until the last possible minute and urge him to look out for any incoming threats (aka sending out scouts) in order to evacuate as many people as possible, basically nudging him to a more morally acceptable but still sensible plan of action which could have allowed them to perform the miracle of 'evacuating everyone in the nick of time', they decide to oppose him completely and want to stand and fight. (Maybe they even could have managed to pull Ironwood back from the brink one more time and stop him from discarding his heart completely. And with sending out scouts for any incoming threats they could have called Salem's bluff if it was one and no one would have been left behind. Or it could have been given them reassurance if the second army was smaller than anticipated and maybe they don't have to send Atlas up after all.) All they have done with their actions is deciding that if some have to die (those still in Mantle) everyone else has to as well with no gain whatsoever except for their soothed morals. And have I already mentioned how the Ace Ops are out of the count now, the same people who could have helped with the whole Cinder problem and maybe with Neo? Something team RWBY could have helped with as well? And how Clover, Qrow and Robyn, who could have ensured that Tyrian would be locked away for good or even killed, are out of commission because Ruby gave them incomplete information, prompting Robyn to act stupid? (Again, ironically it is RWBY who causes the divide.) Admittedly, plot armour will probably allow them to pull through, No-Sell the incoming danger with the help of a Deus Ex Machina and 'prove them right'. But from an in-universe perspective? To stand and fight is one of the last things you want to do. Its only marginally better than just saying f***k it and presenting Salem with what she wants on a silver platter if only because they can still send Penny away with the Staff of Creation when their decision to stand and fight will inevitably fail, leaving everyone else to perish. RWBY was well-meaning, yes. Morally good and morally right, also yes. Was their decision the correct and sensible choice in their current situation if they want to accomplish anything useful? Not by a longshot. PS: Don't get me wrong, I know that everyone involved (Both Ironwood and team RWBY) had to make snap decisions and could not calmly think everything over like we can. If RWBY had a feasible plan with even the slightest chance of success, I would totally support them. Alas, Ironwood's plan was the only viable one given. PPS: For those of you who think no one will trust Atlas again; All they have to do is record the approaching army, the fight and what they had to face. No one with all their faculties intact will give Atlas grieve for their decision after witnessing what they had to face. At this point I just want the incoming genocide via Mami Salami and her dynamax Nimbostratus Monstro to happen just to knock some of the idealism out of the main cast. The amount they have currently is just not healthy for anyone involved, though I don't really believe they will. After all, they are not the best when it comes to self-reflection. Okay, I am done now. Rant is over.
I agree with you. The only logical way this battle will end is with either Atlas being destroyed, or a Pyrrhic victory where they lose more civilians than if they had fled. Salem’s brought a veritable army of Grimm, led by a whale almost as big as Atlas itself. Our heroes have spent all night dealing with evacuation and fighting each other. And the y can’t be everywhere. If Salem was smart enough to attack civilian centres, then Atlesian forces would have to let civilians die to protect Penny and the relic, or have weaker security because they’re busy defending people, allowing her to overwhelm them. Or she could broadcast a threat to kill everyone unless the Winter Maiden gives her the relic. The only way RWBY could trip her up is to flee with Penny, and then they’d be acting just like Ironwood. Team RWBY fail to realise that Salem has put them into a no-win situation. They don’t seem to get that it’s not about choosing the best route, but finding the lesser of all evils. It’s cruel and terrible, and that’s precisely why Salem went that route. Also, nearly everyone who knows about Salem is on Atlas right now. If they fall, then she can go back to working in the shadows. I don’t think anyone thought about that part.
Holy saint Josephine and I thought I'd be on a rant about this. At best in an unbiased opinion I'd say both options are bad one just sounds better than the other and that is Ironwood's, Ruby's plan (goal) given that they have no guaranteed backup and even if they did it would still take too long, days for the backup to get there because Salem is ALREADY there and Ironwood's plan is to fly into space and hide. This video already said the reasons why that may fail but it at least could possibly put it off another few... weeks at best. Ruby's is in lame man's term sit down with your thumb up your butt or hands praying someone will save them.
I agree on a lot of your points, haven’t read the whole thing since it’s 5 am for me, but one thing I see is that Ruby gave Qrow and Robin incomplete info, but Ironwoods the one that cut here off so kind of on him there. Also I fell that it could be argued that they saw that ironwood was over the deep end and instead of trying to slowly nudge him towards a better decision which could lead to him slow fermenting his stance by bringing up more details that he will swing to make himself seem right, they attempted to firmly state that they were against this, hoping that either the Ace Ops would agree, or that ironwood wouldn’t risk losing them from his team. If either of these had occurred we could have seen the mentioned compromising and scout deployment although I would believe Ironwood would state “THEIRS NO TIME!”. Team RWBY bet on Ironwood to backdown or the Ace Ops to back them, both failed. I feel this outcome was from both a failed gamble by team RWBY, but also the tone Ironwood took when discussing leaving millions to die kind of made it seem like there was not gonna be a compromise on this. Ironwood didn’t ask, didn’t suggest, he told, and team RWBY took that as the point of no return. Wether it was is up to debate.
@@vex3488 Ruby informed them that Salem is coming, that Ironwood is declaring Marshal Law (which, considering the situation, is absolutely justified) and that he was going to move Atlas and leave what remains of Mantle to die and that they have to stop him. She did not lead with the important bits, namely the encroaching apocalypse in form of a Grimm army, the state the military is in and that it was a fight they can not win (Admittedly, the last part is where her idealism shines through since she believes they can, in fact, do it). Yes, she was hasty to get the word out since she was in the same room with Ironwood, but I still think that with those three pieces of information Robyn would have not acted as unreasonable as she has. As for the compromise; RWBY dug their heels in, they did not even try. Everything they have said could be boiled down to 'hold out for a miracle'. 'you have to fight, you are hunters, you can't just back down', disregarding the fact that the vast majority around is not capable of defending themselves. I would have reacted the same way Ironwood had because team RWBY stating they were completely against Ironwood's plan in the way they did was them, to my ears and probably Ironwood's, not accepting a tactical retreat of any kind. No compromise. Full stop. Fight or die, that was all their words implied. Add to that the shown inability of them to make good decisions (Yang and Blake telling Robyn and kudos for Ironwood, I would have had a long list of choice words for them because only luck stopped it from blowing up in their faces) and it should not surprise them that their gamble did not pay off. I know I was not.
@@mayzzt5310 I was hoping Ironwood's plan was to go into space but eventually come down or move the city closer to the other kingdoms. I'm curious if you look through the comments section what's your thoughts on my comment about the script being changed? If you can't find it I'll post here.
Here’s one thing here that I don’t think people are getting, Grim adaptability. There was no reason why anyone would agree to live in the frozen waistband that is Solitace. The only good thing about it was that the harsh environment was equally as damaging to Grimm as it was for people. So the people used dust and technology to find a way around it and build a city that was safe from Grimm. For a while anyway. Grimm were eventually able to adapt to the environment and survive there. But as the Amity arena stated about the Saber Grimm this evolution seems to have happened fare sooner than predicted. More than likely Salem’s doing. Therefore it isn’t hard to imagine that it won’t matter how high in the atmosphere they go. Salem will eventually make Grimm that will reach them. This is were I think the new whale Grimm comes in. Rather than comparing it to a zeppelin I compared it to a real wale only instead of water it swims in the air. A sperm wale which this new Grimm seems to be based off of can go as fare as 3280 feet deep in the water. Work that in reverse since this a flying wale and that means it can go higher than the Kingdom tower which is currently the tallest tower in the world. And easily reach the same height that James is trying to go to escape the Grimm. Meaning short of going into space there isn’t anyplace Ironwood can go to try and escape Salem.
Yup, Grimm adaptability was one thing that was difficult to account for. I didn't really feel the need to include it since Salem would win regardless if the Whale could get up there or not.
Truth be told as reckless as Ruby’s plan seems to be it’s also seems like the best plan. Salem’s goal from day one has been to turn, divide, and pit people agents each other. This would suggest that the one thing that Salem does not want to go against is a united front. It stands to reason that if you’re enemy is trying so hard to split up you’re forced that standing together is the best bet.
My theory is she wants to keep humanity apart, because if united Ozpin May bring the gods back, having completed his mission. The only people a threat to her. Otherwise, Salem is as powerful as a fully realized maiden fives times over, on top of being immortal. She is quite literally unbeatable. Fighting her is a suicide mission.
@@KeeKage37 That's actually the most risky plan because that's discounting the fact that she could simply retreat if she really needed to which would be unlikely, because Salem also has access to a maiden in the form of Cinder, and Ruby could easily be either taken out early by Salem directly, or overwhelmed by the forces she already has available. On top of the absolute MASSIVE loss of life, and suffering the operation would result in, leading to an already exhausted military, which Ironwood directly stated, even more exhausted, demoralized, and weakened. Which I think he overlooked in the video. And even IF she was successfully repelled, they'll still be under attack from the perpetual presence of the Grimm. Not only that but she'll either come back immediately, or focus Vaccuo while keeping Atlas occupied on survival. And Cinder already has access to a relic already, which could be factored into the equation. That "breakout" only works against traditional opponents. Not an enemy that doesn't care about resources supply lines or rest.
I want to add something on the reinforcements idea- Vale would be the LEAST likely to help regardless for a few reasons: Firstly they're presumably still rebuilding after the fall of Beacon and the attack on Vale. It has been awhile since we last checked in amd we know Glynda at the time was working around the clock to help but it's probably been very difficult. Second with the fall of Beacon and the attack on Vale presumably alot of huntsman and huntresses were killed or injured during the fight along with possibly many students who stayed to fight that we didn't see. Third and finally they may not be as willing to aid because of said attack where Ironwood's robot army was turned against the people (he had no control over it) which could have been responsible for at least a few civilian and/or huntsman and huntress casualties
I thought that the grimm´s flight limit, was kinda like how they explained with dust in a world of remnant episode. where once you get a certain distance up, it just stops working.
I honestly don't know why they don't just do both. Ironwood had a massive air fleet at his beck and call. He can start raising Atlas while using the airships to ferry people up from mantle and defend it in the meantime. Boom. Solid plan, Atlas out of danger, and minimal casualties.
Either A. He's too scared that Salem is close enough B. He's worried he'll let in more infiltrators like Cinder C. He would've suggested just that if Ruby hadn't jumped the gun in deciding to completely oppose him
@@justynhill4814 no. He didn't order their arrest until after Ruby _screamed into her scroll broadcast_ her intention to stop Ironwood from any part of his plan.
@Konstellashon- okay maybe your right but do think it would have been okay to let the others be in the dark because if Robyn found out later she probably kill ironwood. I’m not saying Ironwood plan isn’t logical but that’s the kind of thinking you don’t comeback from until your okay with just letting people die for your cause. RWBY plan is 50-50 chance they either win or die but their putting their lives on the line like when they stayed to fight the lavithan to fix what they did.
I just don't see how either plan isn't completely doomed with the information they had available at the time. So they're just competing on which is less terrible. But the fact that there's this much discussion on it in the fandom proves to me that it's a success from a writing standpoint anyway.
This video is hilarious to me. Not because i think this guy is wrong about anything or i think the ideas are silly or something. In fact I think he's right about 95% of the things he said. I just just find it funny that he probably put a lot more thought into this than the actual writers.
The way I see it teams RWBY and JNR plus Penny, her dad, and Maria already on the run or perhaps a distraction to draw Salem away from Atlas for the fleet to destroy the Grimm forces but I don't know anyone else seen it but there are wyvern grimm flying with the whale towards Atlas and last I checked they need bigger guns or something else to kill them. I love strategy games but I don't think tactically I just hold positions and protect Allie bases
This got me thinking. What if they were to use the relic of creation to basic fly Atlas to Vacuo. Theoretically, they could do that. And they could my fast enough to if not outrun the grim then to at least keep a good distance in front. The only major problem would be fuel as the airships would have to shadow Atlas the whole way there.
I totally agree on one of your facts, even if ironwood's plan had worked, he would end up risking the live of everyone in Atlas, people would run out of food and sustenance, and they would all die, all because of him, the only reason he tried to do this, is because of his fears and paranoia had finally taken a hold of him, making all the wrong choices, turning his back on the only ones who would've helped save his kingdom, and what's worse, he even turned his men on ruby and company just because that they wouldn't comply with that plan, and just because blake and yang told robyn about the project, and since he's turned his back on his own allies, all of the atlesian military is in shambles, everyone is critically in danger all because of his piss poor choices, and all the deaths will be on his hands, if they somehow survive this, ironwood is gonna answer for his actions, and is either going to lose his job as headmaster, council member and general, or end up dead, either way, he's doomed himself and his kingdom, all because he chose to let his fears and paranoia consume him completely, so I don't care what happens to ironwood in volume 8, I just hope he dies for his betrayal.
the maiden may be able to take care of the food and water problem considering their power all winter seem to need to do is make a lot of snow and then boil the water and winter can also use the maiden power to make fire and maybe cause plants to grow im not sure seen we only need maiden use powers of ice and fire she could also make it rain on seen we seen maiden can make storms
@@spinoirrex2433 very true and maybe rain we have seen with raven and cinder bitch they can make storms if they can also make clouds is yet to be explained
To Ironwoods Credit, Unless Salem has some of those black tar pools on her then her numbers are limited. All Atlas would have to do would be pick off the flying Grimm and then make a big play against the whale.
The world is a bit ill defined at times, but we have definitely seen more settlements than just Atlas, Argus, and Mantle making up the larger force. It would be entirely within reason to think that Atlas would be able to fly, becoming a mobile headquarters for humanity to fight back with. As you mentioned, they have the fleet, but they should also be able to fly the city anywhere they want, park it, gather resources, and fly off again. Assuming the Grimm all keep to the assumed flight limit that is well under Atlas, then even a large city like Atlas should be able to break line of sight and get away from Salem. Sure it would become a complex game of hide and seek, but nothing prevents Ironwood from simultaneously sending the winter maiden away once the Staff has been used and then stored away. With the "limitless energy" that Atlas already gets from the Staff, it should be entirely possible to develop plenty of new devices to assist the city. Be it new energy based weapons or powering incredibly strong water siphons, with limitless energy, they are able to do what is necessary. Alternatively, they would be able to ask Ambrosius to upgrade the city. The current wish would be destroyed, but does that matter if they find a request that would not only replace the limitless energy so they can keep flying, but also add in other self-sufficient technologies? If they wished to make Atlas "An entirely self-sufficient, flying city, capable of generating enough water, food, energy, and dust to maintain the city, and capable of flying above the height that any Grimm could reach", then Ambrosius should be able to grant that and create a perfect fortress against Salem. But this is important for another reason; Atlas is the largest repository of technology in the world. They have the most advanced technologies, manufacturing, and military. Even if they can't address their issues in the long term, getting Atlas mobile enough to reach the other major Kingdoms would be game changing. If they can pool all their resources to fight in one location, they will be that much stronger. They could even use Atlas as a ship to gather the strongest fighters, rescue the other Maidens, and retrieve valuable caches of supplies, and critical time. The more time Salem is forced to spend trying to track or predict Atlas's movement, the less time she is able to dedicate to other efforts.
Very well done! Lots of research and many theories to consider. You should do more of these or perhaps some theory or predictions for the upcoming volume(s).
I agree with your analysis of Ironwood's plan based what you said about the historical military concept of the defensive siege. As you explained, a defensive siege in and of itself is not an end or a long-term solution, it is simply a means of buying time in order to allow a real solution to come into play. In that context, I don't see any way for Ironwood's plan to work for anything beyond the immediate term. Salem would simply need to blockade Atlas and crush the other three kingdoms one by one. We know that Atlas has the world's strongest military by far, so I don't see any way for the other kingdoms to resist a level of force that Atlas' commander in chief decided he could only run from, especially since two of those kingdoms have already been severely weakened. Even if Ironwood tries to inform the other kingdoms and ask them to join forces, and even if the other kingdoms are willing to do so, his message could at best only reach them just ahead of Salem's attacks. So I see very little chance that any of the kingdoms could actually aid each other, or resist Salem's attacks alone. Then, with all other resistance crushed, Salem simply plays the waiting game until she can infiltrate her followers into Atlas, or Atlas runs out of a critical resource, or something else goes wrong for them. So in my mind, that's the fundamental problem with Ironwood's plan: even though the other options are all certainly longshots, what Ironwood wants to do has zero chance of ultimate success. This is a case where losing more slowly does not help you to ultimately win.
@Soulstealer56 I think that's what overlooked when it comes to people getting on other people's cases because they choose Ironwood's idea, despite the ones who do choose Ironwood's idea not actually liking the idea (because of morals). The only reason they choose his is because (if watching the show) his idea is the only solution that seems viable (not saying it would work, it could actually fail). Has RWBY offer any alternatives to the solution that both sides can agree on (with actual basis and proof that it can work)?
Shadow Saber456 that would be nice. Team RWBY argue over the morality of Ironwoods plan which is ineffective. He knows it’s immoral but it’s the lesser evil. If there was another way, he would take it. They have yet to offer another way
@@soulstealer5625 Why exactly do you think Ironwood's plan is the "lesser evil"? It sacrifices all the people of Mantle, and ultimately the entire rest of the world, in order to buy Atlas temporary safety but a completely non-viable long-term situation. The truth of the matter is, it's not really a plan, it's just Ironwood giving into his fears and finding a way to run. I realize you're looking for someone else to come up with a clear alternative, but it's not like Ironwood gave team RWBY much time to come up with one before ordering their arrest. And frankly, when you're comparing to an option that has a massive human and moral cost for ultimately no gain, anything would be better.
Wolfeson28 evacuating and keeping Salem from obtaining the relics and maiden is better than sit and pray for help. With atlas ascended, they can either flee or stall for time. It’s not great but better than RWBY which is to fight a hopeless war, lose and have Salem wipe out both Atlas and Mantle. Mantle is screwed either way
The thing about ironwoods plan is it is really the best possible option given 1 assumption, they cannot win. If there is no hope for them to every kill and defeat Salem then basically they are sacrificing everyone who will already die the end result assuming atlas can have enough food which I imagine it can based on their advanced technology. If they are that high up they won’t need to defend at all. You’re assuming there is a siege it seems like ironwood being a general understands these problems and that here is enough food and water and as long as that holds true it doesn’t matter at all because then it stops being a siege it’s just them only living in one city Assuming they then all die guess what Salem does not win she will likely never get to the staff, at the very least assuming that magic like dust becomes less effective the closer you get to the edge of the atmosphere, which I find likely It’s a sacrifice no matter how you look at it ironwoods plan is not good but I think it really is the only option they really can’t beat Salem head on with the information we have, yes it’s a show and she will be beaten, but they don’t know this in universe this is the best plan to not just save lives but defeat Salem. I’m sorry but the heroes are stupid their plan is terrible and makes no sense and will definitely get everyone killed as opposed to probably get everyone killed.
I thought Ironwood’s plan wouldn’t work because Atlas would need dust and other things and he is abandoning the other the kingdoms to be ravaged by Salem and Summer, plus Salem can just wait until Atlas floats back down and just attack it from there or she can create Grimm that are adapted to flying far beyond the ground
@@oscarpine7145 No reason? Trying to talk somebody down who is in command into not fulfilling their function is kind of like being an enemy belligerent. If they believe in what they're doing, no one will stop them. Not with weapons, not with words.
@@irongeneral7861 look I get it, you were scared shitless because an evil witch with an army was on her way, but really? abandon most of mantle and shoot a kid? how were you gonna explain I wasn't there considering I'm holding your boss in my head. "oh about oscar he tripped and fell of the airship or slipped off atlas." I didn't even try to fight you but you hit me with a McCree hipfire
Isn’t the flight limit caused by dust effect lose at certain heights, so what is stopping a organic non-dust affiliated creature with a so far unknown need for oxygen, from either flying to these heights or being created as demonstrated by the flying monkey specimen. Although less air may lead to incapable lift, this still brings up multiple other problems. It is unclear what the life support system entails but I can not see how it could counter oxygen deprivation. Also all conventional ships are likely not equipped with the capabilities to reach heights unobtainable by grim, because if so incidents such as the wasp attack on Weiss would not occur as everyone would use this method. - I do have a proposition for the current situation however. Team RWBY and their accomplices seem to posses the needed will and determination to survive a mixture of hit and run tactics and hiding from Salem forces for a extended time, which will also act as a distraction as they posses the maiden. Well this distraction is employed the funneling of Mantel residents to Atlas will continue well a evacuation of Atlas will begin. A risk factor of this scenario is possible enemy focus on either Mantle or Atlas evacuation, but the continued RWBY hit and runs should hopefully pull forces from the civilian populace, although potentially civilian attacks to draw out the RWBY group may risk operations further. After virtually full evacuation of Solitas as a whole of civilian and any non-aerial combat units, team RWBY will make a observable stand beneath Atlas, attempting to sell these efforts as a “last stand”. After drawing a massive number of Salem forces, hopefully Salem include, to the designated point, a secretive removal of the Maiden in the middle of the chaotic fight to Atlas will be made(It should be noted to attempt to keep Maiden thoughts on allied combatants in case of untimely death, in which case continue with new subject or eliminate enemy maiden and repeat until allied maiden is achieved). Once maiden has reached Atlas prepare final evacuation of Atlas of all personnel and prepare the fastest escape vehicles for rapid pickup of team RWBY’s group. Once all is ready have allied maiden remove the Atlas Relic and begin making way to evacuation vehicles. Team RWBY should before this event attempt to eliminate enemy mobileity options as much as possible to halt escape from the impact site. Once a pre determined time where it is still possible to escape the impact site is reached, the full evacuation of all allied members is enacted, well if possible enacting sustained fire to limit enemy movement. Once on the move all civilians and non-integrals should be on route to Mistral as they are the largest territory and hopefully since the first refugees have arrived from prior evacuation, have set up arrival points for civilians. Team RWBY, maiden, relic, and all other designated VIPs will begin evacuation to Vacuo, as it has less civilian population to endanger, has been noted to be most capable of enduring Salem forces possible infiltration. If the death of Vale maiden and subsequent friendly maiden creation is achieved, VIPs may reroute to first reach Vale to obtain beacon relic if it may be deemed useful(Request Ozpin for info), but afterward should still redirect to Vacuo after Vale stop. If relic is deemed irrelevant than continue with original protocol, although take into account the possible benefits of having the capabilities to call the gods for a possible final hour scenario before making the final choice. Once Vacuo is reached attempt recovery and creation of new plans as by now variables have likely either drastically changed from the current planing phase or new variable have entered entirely. Also note that if possible put some effort into either interceptions of the knowledge relic before Salem can retrieve the package or a third group may be dispatched at the “last stand” to retrieve the Relic before evacuation. If multiple victory conditions are gained(relic, locked relic maiden), consider splitting the party due to the possibility that Salem may lose track of a Maiden, but likely can track relics to some capacity when outside a vault or even always, which now with consideration somewhat justifies the obvious placement of relic vaults as their tracking may already be known by Ozpin. Final notes for desperate scenario, if the death of a allied maiden is inevitable attempt to focus their thoughts on another female allied member unless total party death is virtually guaranteed, in which case focus the target on a male subject or elderly subject to guarantee the denial of a Maiden to Salem. God dammit now it’s 2 am.... (Some edits and add-ons have been made for grammar or new realizations)
8:35, I think you make a mistake here. You take Ruby's estimation for travelling from Atlas to Mistral or Vacuo but fail to account for the fact that for 99% of the journey, they're walking. Weiss' aircraft trip to Mistral would've been much better as an example to use, though I can't blame you as volume 4-5s timeline i extremely funky. By the end of V4 we see it's nighttime when Weiss is heading out and during her fight with the lancers it is around midday. We can rightfully assume it takes more than 12 hours (I'd guesstimate around 15) to go by airship, though the Atlesian fleet probably have much faster airships than the one Weiss was in, but that's just from Atlas to Mistral. What about Vacuo? From just looking at the screen, it seems that the distance to argus is about 3 times less than that to Vacuo, though Weiss ended up near inner mistral so we'll go with 2 times. With this estimation, we can say a one-way trip would be about 30 hours. Of course this is mainly speculation, and I'm not saying this disproves everything, but it is a significant error I believe you made. Unless that pilot took 2 fucking weeks to get from Atlas to Mistral lmao. Weiss: Are we there yet? Pilot: When will you stop asking that? Weiss: It's been two fucking goddamn weeks! How does it take this long for an aircraft to get to Mistral? This vehicle is slower than a Snail with down-syndrome Pilot: ... W- Weiss: Just shut up and fly
Ah, allow me to clarify. That clip was edited in as a bit of a joke to show how Ruby judges time poorly, it wasn't meant to be taken literally. The thrust of the argument there was that troops or huntsmen will take days to assemble, supply, and organize everyone. So I think Ruby's underestimating how long they'll need to hold out for. Of course weeks is excessive, but I'm not sure what the state of Vacuo's transportation infrastructure is.
@@CrumblingCube Oh Ok. Makes sense. I'm sorry, I thought you referring to two weeks was you stating how long you thought the travel would actually take. But still, the pilot taking 2 weeks to get from Atlas to Mistral while listening to Weiss' constant bitching from here on out will be my permanent headcanon. Pilots: Alright everybody, we're back with all the troops and gear needed to take down Salem and sustaiinnnnnnnn... Everyone: *basically dead* Pilot: Oh shit. Weiss: So f-fucking slowwww *dies*
I had an idea which basically pulls a bit of a Thor Ragnarok, and a page out of Joseph joestar's handbook were the plan is this: 1.The atlas military is fighting and to continuing evacuation efforts 2. Have penny on standby with the atlas relic 3. (Somehow) lure Salem into altas 4. Have a specialized group in atlas to keep her their, preferably as a diversion and some breathing gear where penny will send altas skyhigh hopefully sending Salem into space. Though this whole plan seems quite like an endgame plan since this involves removing Salem from the equation entirely this quick, it is unlikely to happen but I think this has some viability
Since ruby could technically turn her into a semi living rock (via silver eyes, cuz salem is part grim) this could work. Just hope she doesn't crash into cars, one of them is bad enough. Damn, now i want a hamon semblance.
barring any super sayain type silver eye transformation, and or maybe raven AND a potential post backstab fall maiden neo joining to help(bringing a total of THREE maidens to bear), I don't see the stand and fight thing as a viable option. the best I can see myself doing in ironwood's position is a fighting withdrawal of most of the population of mantle while minimizing losses of military and civilian strength, and relocating to vacuo via spaceflight.
The General's plan is bad in that there's no way to strike. It would be smarter had Atlas been mobile and managed a fighting retreat towards another one of the kingdoms. The evacuation slowing down, lack of supplies, etc are all major problems as well. Salem however is just choosing to mess around. If she was intent on killing humanity she could have taken out the other kingdoms.
Or there is a fourth option. Make sure Most of Salems army gets to mantle, then since atlas forces retreat and atlas itself is a lost cause, pull an age of Ultron and smash atlas into mantle thus killing most of the Grimm and buying time for preparation for the next invasion since Salem now has to rebuild or spawn her armies for another invasion
I'm going to assume they have some way of recycling the water. While those big cables might be used to transport supplies like Zalem in Alita Battle Angel, it seems like they would of come up with something for the water problem already. Still the dust supply seems like the biggest issue.
This was a very well thought out video and really points out the flaws of Ironwood plan. Though it also illustrates that no matter what plan would be take, Atlas is still screwed, so there's no perfect strategy to deal with Salem.
There really is no perfect strategy for dealing with Salem, but I feel that it's easy to fo get so trapped in the idea that the 'main situation' is impossible that people forget that there are other situations that benefit from taking action. Or: The situation may be untenable but rather than trying to 'win' anyway one must instead willingly take a loss that round to avoid losing the game completely. Oddly it is team RWBY's plan that does this better than Ironwood's for all the talk of 'hard choices' - The military and huntsmen standing their ground, sacrificing themselves as all the civilians get moved onto Atlas and Amity Tower is completed will likely result in Salem's army being heavily depleted - Her forces may never run out but it does seem to take her time to build the numbers we see here. Salem's immortal factor is fearsome but all alone she can't stop people scattering in all directions, nor can she so quickly overwhelm the other Kingdoms, who if the CCT network gets back up will have forewarning (something that could lead to the unification of the remaining world against this threat as they learn of Salem and that Atlas was framed for the fall of Beacon - incidentally putting Oz that much closer to his end goal leading to less chance of insta-death for all of humanity should the Relics end up together somehow). For an example of effective scattering: In one ship the Winter Maiden protected by the Ace Ops, in another her beloved younger sister and her friends, all with dozens of other ships with civilians going every which way protected by the army. Salem scores many kills this way but she can't just swat them all least the Winter Maiden powers go to someone random halfway across the world and if her forces are weakened enough she might only be able to target so many ships. ...The Maiden and her successor may require a suicide option just to be safe though. Forewarning is CRITICAL for Vaccuo in particular as there is both a Maiden and the Relic of Destruction there, and if the Winter Maiden manages to leave Atlas/Mantle after the Relics of Creation and Knowledge have been sealed in the Atals vault then Atlas falling, while still horrific, achieves the goal of protecting them from Salem just as readily as floating Atlas up high as the Vaults fortunately do not require living protection, only that the Maiden does not open the door. While it is unlikely that Atlas or Mantle will survive in the end, it does give them the slightest chance of doing so should reinforcements from other Kingdoms arrive in time as well. Conversely Ironwood's plan may save Atlas for a time but it dooms the other Kingdoms leaving the Relic of Destruction(!) in Vaccuo completely unprepared for the full might of Salem's forces, and has many, Many, MANY long term issues (water, steel, Dust, food, morale, the chance for the Maiden powers eventually going to someone random down on the surface, etc) plus issues of Salem turning out to actually have high flying Grimm she's just never bothered fielding before, being possibly able to just use her magic to get up there solo to destroy their food/water supplies, or worst case scenario: After a short trip to Vaccuo she gets her hands on the Relic of Destruction and one-shots Atlas out of the sky in a single shot... Aka Ironwood's plan is at best a pyhrric victory which loses everybody everywhere the war. =(
We have been told Dust doesn't function in space. But is it some sort of interaction with Remnant's atmosphere or is it proximity to the planet? So the possibility exists that raising the city into the upper atmosphere would eventually make Dust inert or at the very least weakened.
Yeah I'm curious as to how the exact mechanism, but speculating on the physics of a fantasy world is troublesome to say the least. For our purposes though, even if it did weaken it'd just mean Ironwood would find himself depleted even faster.
all else fails, nuke the place. Get every one out asap and detonate all the dust, and nuke Salem and her forces in one go. yes you lose atlas but she will lose most of her forces.
that would be a good last resort, if it wasn't for the fact that her forces, are presumably endless. Even assuming every grim attacking atlas dies from it, and salem retreats, the grim pools will just replenish all she lost far faster then the heroes replenish their losses. Honestly how Salem hasn't won already is extremely suprising. She has SO many advantages going for her. Immortality, an endless reservoir of troops that needn't eat, sleep or drink, magic. Tons of experience in fighting and manipulation. I don't know if it's cause Oz has actually done a damn good job, Salem is actually somewhat incompetent, or some other factor, but all things considered, a bloody miracle she hasn't won yet.
@@wildwesleywest Salem doesn't care about winning or losing. She hasn't seriously attacked for a long time. Either because the warriors kept her at bay, or because she chose not to.
@@GAnonymusG Honestly at the moment we don't really know what her goal or plan is. Is it just to make Oz suffer? To conquer the world? Destroy it? If we knew this, we would probably better understand why she hasn't succeeded yet. But ultimately like she said to Ironwood. Time is quite literally on her side, so she can go as slow as she wants.
Stand their ground would have had more of a chance if he had forced conscription when he had the chance, and probably fixed his wall or placed some static defenses like anti air, mines and artillery.
Dust stops working once you hit a high enough altitude or leave the atmosphere. It may theoretically possible to kill Salem if you get her trapped on Amity and launch it and get beyond the function limit of dust.
I'm not sure if this has been pointed out anywhere before... but if the spear can make Atlas move one direction... why can't it move it in the others? Why not just park the Airfleet on Atlas, and move it to over Vacuo, all while above the Grimm?
I addressed this in the follow-up vid ruclips.net/video/-LS6HWy2_Qk/видео.html But the short of it is, it's not known if Atlas can move in any other direction. The staff is acting as a power-source only. A propulsion mechanism or assisted tow may be required. Also, this wouldn't solve the other logistical issues highlighted in this video even if it could move.
@@CrumblingCube A potential way to get Atlas to move is to use the stockpiled Grav Dust and to jerry-rig the Airships to act as a propulsion mechanism perhaps? It's a bit ridiculous to think about, Airships rather towing Atlas or embedded into the city's back and hooked up to the Relic's power for propulsion. As far as logistics go, depending on how fast Atlas could go in it's propulsion situation, their stockpiles need to last just long enough to reach Vacuo. Vacuo would have the dust needed to resupply the fleet and city (An idea I had personally to solve the water issue was related to the one proposed about the maiden- just use the Ice dust to produce water locally for each citizen), along with the Oasis that should be able to supply however many people are on Atlas/those that were able to be evacuated from Mantle. Though even saying that, I sincerely doubt Vacuo would be happy to suddenly have an entire floating city of refugees wanting it's resources, with it's own militaristic culture and... massive military. If possible it's still better than flying up and hoping for the best, or a reckles protagonist charge.
ruby and friends plan is just stupid it is so fucking naive to think just because they all stand together they can defeat a (so far) unbeatable enemy it will get everyone killed and doom remnant, but of course this being an anime(?) the have million layer plot armour that will somehow make this fucked plan work
And Ironwood plan to just suck it up and be okay with letting people die just so you can win is okay. That’s the way Selem fights so your saying it’s okay to be like the enemy. The problem was that Selem made both side fight with each other the way she always fights. Also how can atlas pick up the pieces with the chaos after if they left.
Ironwood's plan is flawed, but at least he was putting more thought into it than team RWBY was. Their moral grandstanding and reckless mutiny may very well be the reason Atlas falls at this point. Because of RWBY+, the fate of Atlas completely hinges on a *fan theory* Jin was being a typical genie when she told ozpin that *he* couldn't kill salem and ruby's silver eyes are the key to victory somehow.
But they have put more thought in it, in my opinion. Ironwood’s plan is incredibly flawed and would likely be a very temporary solution. Salem’s main goal is to divide them, he’s just doing what she wanted him to do. Team RWBY’s plan of standing their ground and calling for back up has much better odds of producing favorable results. It seems that it takes a lot of time for Salem to gather a force of that size. With Atlas’ military, the huntsmen and students at the Academy, the Winter maiden, and Ruby’s silver eyes, I’m fairly certain they can weather the storm until help arrives from Vacuo (they seem to be in the best shape right now other than Atlas). Ruby is getting better with her Silver Eyes, so she could possibly do enough damage to the Grimm whale or even Salem herself that would force her to step back for a moment, which gives them valuable time to finish the tower and call for help. If Vacuo can strengthen their defenses they have a second stronghold to fall back to. Now of course, this isn’t perfect either, at all. They’re both flawed, but I just feel like Ironwood’s plan is far too temporary and fanciful. Salem’s plan is honestly genius now that I’m thinking about it. Mistral and especially Vale are in no shape to rush to Atlas’ aid but they could potentially send ships for evacuations. Her original plan from her dialogue in V6 was to attack and cripple Vacuo next, but Ozpin choosing to bring the lamp to Atlas practically forced her to change course. That small change could wind up being their saving grace
@@amransom26 Here's the perspective I look at it in: The enemy general effectively just facetimed them and said "I'm in the driveway homie, come get these hands." This general is functionally immortal, has a (as far as we know about the pools) functionally inexhaustible source if troops for her army, and is herself many times more powerful individually than any of the rest of them. That last point is especially potent since she can use *actual magic* while everyone else is limited to Semblances and Dust. Ironwood's response to this was a tactical retreat to buy time to regroup and figure out a better long term solution, albeit at the cost of those who had yet to evacuate. Had he been able to act quickly enough and had the full cooperation of RWBY+, this plan would have gone off without a hitch and they would be free to devise a better long term solution. Keeping the Maiden and the relics out of enemy hands has to take precedence to ensure the entire planet isn't wiped out, as that *is* Salem's end goal as far as we currently know. Now, what is RWBY's response to all of this information? Stand and fight long enough to finish evacuations, but no plan for safeguarding the relics and the Maiden in the time being. This becomes more evident when Oscar gets mugged and Penny runs off with the Maiden powers later. Ruby herself goes on to spur ORNJ into action by giving ironwood's plan out of context in a way that causes panic. On top of this, the personification of misplaced priorities winds up starting a fight with his former comrades at the cost of his own life and the capture of one of the enemy's commanders. RWBY also gets into a fight with ACE OPS and incapacitates one of the kingdom's best fighting forces. ON TOP OF THAT penny runs off with the Maiden powers to join team reckless after Winter nearly fucking dies and refuses to side with her sister. Leaving 4 of their best warriors incapacitated, 1 commander incapacitated, 1 commander dead, 1 relic stolen, the Maiden running off as a fugitive with 7 other valuable warriors, and Ozpin MIA. All in all, team RWBY's stubbornness in response to Ironwood's plan is the direct cause of Atlas's current FUBAR situation.
I don't think team RWBY was going to mutny. They just wanted to express their right as huntresses not to work for Ironwood and have their glorious last stand. It's because Ironwood wanted to control everything and have them arrested, that they had to fight their way out / Clover died.
@@diegelbeseegurke2116 Ruby specifically said she wanted them all to stop Ironwood's plan. She screamed it into her scroll broadcast. It's _after_ this that James ordered their arrest. Just wanna point that out.
to be honest any strategy will be hard against an enemy with pretty much infinite numbers it would all b elike a small terran base vs never ending hordes of zerg
The thing I'm considering is that if the Staff of Creation can do anything else. If energy is all it give, then perhaps a right way to channel it could be the key to victory. But the problem is we don't know whatever method/catalyst is possible.
Yeah, Ironwood's wording is that it is an infinite energy source, but some people have run away with the theory it can do ANYTHING. Revive people? The Relic of Creation can do it! Need a mobile command station? The Relic of Creation can do it! Sawn a boat in half and Flex-Tape *can't* fix it? The Relic of Creation can do it!
So, making Atlas float indefinitely isn't an issue as the staff powers the entire city meaning the only fuel and ammo issues come from weaponry, and any additional air crafts consequently they would have the winter maiden which has shown the ability to generate ice from seemingly nothing which is means they could have the winter maiden creating water for the time being till they can come up with a further plan.
We later find out the relic is incredibly powerful, so I always wondered why they couldn't they use the relic to save everybody like create like pocket housing for mantle? A habitable platform dome attached to it?
Very good analysis that is close to my own thoughts on the subject but much deeper. You don't play siege with immortal whose army don't need any supplies. Ruby plan is huge gamble but if any other option mean lose it is only reasonable option. Death or glory instead of slow death in gutter.
I see 2 thing you miss first is that if Ironwood plan work's how would dust work at that altitude? An how would they keep Atlas from flouting away from the main land? If the staff is making gravity dust wouldn't that stop working? If 1 did Ruby plan to fight head on it would be a suicide mission...getting not just people kill but the military kill off and showing a battle field of dead or dying body an see how she look knowing that she call for this to happen would be a slap to her ego... Now for what might happen... I can see Ironwood doing only 1 thing to save his people from Salem and that is to surrender to her an do as she ask well try to get the people safety away with out her seeing him do it... And RWBY and group being hunted down...were i would like to see Jaune Arc, Lie Ren and Nora Valkyrie ask why did this happen? Then a speech From Ruby that Jaune does not want to hear and tail her to stop it. Making Jaune an Ren not want to be part of what team RWBY has done...and they pick to go back to help the people with out Team RWBY. But they want to go but was told they have to keep the Maiden safe and that u can't just pick an leave a task u made for your self... So all 3 will go...an RWBY will be on the run for a time...
Ironwood said "high in the atmosphere" so I'd hope he'd raise it to the point where Dust still functions and not any higher. Dust stops working when you leave the atmosphere and try to get into space, so as long as they're not planning a moon-base they might be ok.
This has nothing to do with moving Atlas into the atmosphere, but what if Atlas keeps Mantle poor in order to get more of them to join the military since its conisdered a ticket to a better life and people in poverty often have mininal chaces to move up, by having a massive chunk of your population in poverty, and the idea that the military can be your ticket out, it is the perfect breeding groud for such a massive army. Especially considering that I doubt many soldiers come from the Atlesian upperclass. On a related note, the grimm are an excellent resource with how many different uses they can be for. Imagine if Seer Grimm could be tamed and used by the kingdoms.
What do we think about perhaps using the staff to finish the Amity project? Now this requires getting Penny on side and removing it from the vault is *super* risky. It would also require lowering Atlas to ground level. (Concept art seems to show that the hole that Atlas left behind is still mostly there and the same shape and doesn't seem to be residential.) This may make it easier for the air fleet to defend in order to hold out for reinforcements from other kingdoms. Hell, some reinforcements might arrive faster than expected. As soon as communications are up, Raven could be there in seconds. Not that she'd help with the fight but Yang or Tai may be able to badger her into assisting with evacuation to Patch.
You think it would have been better if Amity arena was already launched and the other kingdoms do say they'll send reinforcements but after that conversation is over they find out Salem is basically on their door step and will be there in like a few hours or maybe longer to really get that linchpin by making it days so it's really a toss up? With that scenario you could have RWBY's plan of holding the fort which would seem vastly more viable then the original while Ironwood's plan would still be thinking of the safety of his people and trying to flee on a "Noah's Ark" type super battleship where they can at the very least fly towards the other kingdoms so the saving will come quicker but at the cost of not having enough room only for the necessary people.
I will say the best way to beat Salem is by chaining her down with like 700 tons of pure metal, and try to put a seal on her forehead to keep her from summoning grim. Now one problem with this is; were they going to keep her? I would say the only two solutions they can come up with is putting her at the bottom of the ocean, because she can't die so she won't drown. The second solution I think they could do is just bury her underground and hope for the best that she can't communicate with everybody with her telekinesis. AKA her ability to control people (maybe?) One way for that to work is that they would have to bury her at least 500ft. As for any future cultists of her beliefs, the main cast shouldn't have a problem dealing with them. Also I think another problem they would have to deal with is Cinder but she's narcissistic so all they need are the Silver Eyes Flash and they're good. (By the way I'm not big a fan of Rwby I just made this Theory.)
Neo wouldn't have been able to steal the relic so easily without Neo using the Atlasian soldiers against ORNJ, though. Not only would she be unable to use them as cover for a getaway, ORNJ wouldn't have been panicking, soldiers wouldn't be actively them, and soldiers would be actively shooting Neo. Could Neo possibly steal the Relic? Sure. Are her chances of doing so incredibly slim, being up against the undivided attention of 4 hunters-not-in-training-anymore and a small squad of soldiers? Yes.
But she wouldn't have been able to steal the Relic in the first place if Oscar hadn't carried it around on his Keychain. They even talk about how stupid it is, but never do anything! You can't tell me that there aren't other safe Locations in the Academy that you could have hid the Lamp.
Honestly I don’t think they have any chance in a straight up fight with Salem. The only way I can see them winning is get all the relics together and the gods decide to help or somehow convince Salem to be good. What I think will probably happen but it’s stupid is that Ruby’s silver eyes cure Salem of the Grimm and she goes back to before she jumped in the pit.
But what if Salem's power to control and manipulate grimm is tied to her being a part of grimm? Ruby cures Salem and loses control of the grimm, later we see her jumping back into a pool to regain the ability again. Or Ruby freezes her, Tyrian and/or Watts then have to free Salem. Giving them a bit more time? There are some ways to fight Salem, but non of them are safe.
Tobias Skorupa she might get frozen but would be alive and any internal damage healed and then she could get out herself. As for her getting cured I was meaning to imply that she would stop being evil if cured. I fully believe she can only control grim due to her being part Grimm.
Let me know if you guys like the analysis style vid and if you have any suggestions for any others!
I definitely liked the vid, but as for Jimmy's plan (I didn't think of the water issue, so props to that) The big logistical issue I saw with a long-term plan was simple: Steel and repairs. Because yeah, things break, and you need to make repairs, and with the staff of creation acting as a battery, you can't just wave a wand and to create more materials to fix things when they break, like say, the enviromental shield.
....But, as for the water-issue, it is plausible that Jimmy's plan was to use the Winter Maiden's elemental magic to whip up a ton of ice and melt it to make water.
@@AnonEcho98 Yup, their logistical situation is absolutely nightmarish and I don't envy how desperate Jimmy is for him to consider his plan viable.
As for the Maiden powers, I'm not sure how much a newly minted Maiden could do. It'd be better than nothing, but I don't think it'd be enough to meet the agricultural and drinking demands for a small city.
@@CrumblingCube Yeah, no, Jimmy was definitely at the breaking point, even before the betryals of trust reared their ugly heads, good intentions not withstanding in the slightest.
Yeah, definitely not the best plan, but then again... Jimmy was at the ends of his rope, so he might've genuinely considered that as an option.... or he was banking on the small bit of weather manipulation we saw Amber and Raven do being able to pull some clouds up to Atlas to make harvesting water easier, possibly working on it while the supplies lasted.
definitely liked it
For sure loved it👌
I look at the thumbnail and I start thinking about Ironwood’s plan to desperately save Atlas from coronavirus by distancing the kingdom into the air with gravity dust while Salem invades to continue the spread 😂
Asuna I almost liked the comment but I’m immature because 69
199
Salem is the ultimate Karen.
For character like ironwood, to be afraid but must swallow their emotion because of their position and responsibility to the people as well one of the face of leaders(not the most liked, aside shooting oscar) he's shown his initiative to do what's need to be done even though it's going to back lash him. Wither his action or intention, even logic are reasonable or not. I like ironwood he's the most human in the show or rather what human are when so much are weigh on your shoulders as well the bad to cruel choices presented in front of them.
You're kidding right he speaks of trust but offers non. he speaks of faith in allies but has non himself. He speaks of sacrifice but in the end he has made non himself. And above all he speaks in having I clear head and using logic and reason but in reality he's no better them a frighten Mutt. So do tell me how is the great general Ironwood right?
@@kishinasura1989 your right! , he spoke these things, he also tried what he preached, and failed! And the comparison of a 'frighten mutt' is expected from someone cornered and too scared to realize who one harms either to themselves or others, acting out wouldn't be surprising(anyone scared shitless would lose it in a heart beat, i know i would under pressure). Ironwood isn't right by the choices he made, but i can't automatically presumed he's wrong either. Also 'great' a bit much, for me personally he's just a flawed man with a title and a shit ton of paranoia.
@Kishin Asura ... Someone must be blind, cause someone didn't notice that when the good general tried all that shit it failed fucking horribly. Speak the truth? Trust his allies? They sold him out to a unknown who was speaking pretty words cause he had some bad press and had then arrested initially for illegally crossing a border, and violating tons of laws. As for not sacrificing anything himself... we're talking about the same General right? The one who lost his only remaining arm just to stall Salem's plans? He didn't even fucking end them considering Watts was imprisoned instead of killed, cause you can't trust RWBY writers to properly handle a badass villain exit without a body. Ironwood legitmately tried to kill Oscar before he's presumably gonna kill Watts, so yeah.
@@kishinasura1989 *he has made non himself*
wait... both arms, one leg...? that's nothing?
@@firstcaptainvaleriusrensor463 in war? No it isn't it's expected
Also physical sacrifice is different for the emotional and mental sacrifice witch because of his semblance he's now more mentally a robot then penny was
Ironically, one of the stipulations of Salem's Immortality is "as long as she walks Remnant's Surface", so her getting flung into space along with Atlas may have very well killed her.
I have a question. Under the conditions that Ironwood's plan succeeds and Atlas is lifted high above the clouds, instead of sending a fleet to ask for help and troops and supplies, couldn't the general afterwards continue with his original plan of restoring global communications, by using either the Amity arena or Atlas itself as a communication tower, tell the world about Salem, explain Atlas's situation, then ask for help? Ozpin already has people in Vacuo and Vale, and so does Team RWBY (thank you, Sun); couldn't they come out and corroborate the general's words?
They'd give up control of Amity when they ascend, and Salem would likely have it destroyed if she ever found out the tower's purpose. As for converting Atlas into one, that's feasible, but comes at considerable risk to gather the construction materials, and then we have to factor in fuel and ammo again for those runs. At that point it'd be faster and lower cost to send runners. You could still work on the tower, resources permitting. I don't know how much sway Team RWBY has to the average person. Ironwood had sway, because Robyn basically had him under oath on live TV. Assuming the people in Vacuo are still loyal to Ozpin, that may not matter since they could exert their influence like Ironwood did.
Of course using an airship to send runners to vacuo and vale with a plan on restoring the c.c.t. is also an option
@@CrumblingCube wouldn't the runners be intercepted by Grimm in this case, considering in your scenario Atlas would be under siege?
@@floricel_112 That is a possibility of course. A fast moving small ship like the Manta would have a better chance. Its best chance would be if Ren were on board masking them.
Why wouldn’t they send amity up as well? it’s possible that it is already capable to be sent up (as they have been planning on doing so for weeks and in volume 3 it seemed to be able to float high in the atmosphere already we just don’t know if that was a high as it could go) and then they could finish the communication tower while it’s up and away from Grimm. They would just have to hurry and get it up before Salem’s Grimm get to it
They could fly atlas around using it as a mobile command center for the huntsmen and to store the other relics
wait, now ironwood's plan seems like the strongest one if the other nations are feeling the same.
Except they have to keep at least one Relic separate unless they ready to summon the Brothers.
It'd be under Ironwood's Military Dictatorship. That's not something to even consider.
@@XTheCrystalBeastGuyX Ah, Tulius... the military governor!
I mean, I assumed Atlas would be mobile and step one would be 'so we start flying the heck away from Salems death whale-'
His plan is flawed, but I still like it over what team RWBY wanted. Crumbling cube, if you read this, a video analyzing team RWBYs plan (standing their ground against Salem and her forces) would be a nice compliment to this video (showing both sides) I know this one would be more difficult with all the unknowns (whale Grimm, # of monkey Grimm, etc) but I think it could be doable if you want to
Thing with RWBY's end is that they can indeed fight Salem's forces, if not herself and her lackeys, Ruby's eyes still instakill most grimm.
She struggled with a Grimm a quarter of the size of the whale Grimm. Plus I don’t think ruby will be able to just silver eye Salem she’s to smart and experienced to let ruby get the best of her. I think my problem is that I think using amity arena is no longer an option Salem is here now and there’s no way they are defending that while Atlas is trying to finish the communication tower (which on its own could take days). Team RWBY is just taking the moral high road and while they are trying to save everyone, no amount of plot armor can save them. Ironwood sees that and is trying his best to do what he can with the cards he is dealt. I think the story could have written so much better with the two moral paths it seems like CRWBY just painted the main cast as saints while making Ironwood evil for no reason except to show team RWBY is always right
@@BengFT12 I agree. this is a Damn if you do. Damn if you don't scenario. The Kubayashi Maru scenario.
The Standing Ground alone is not a viable option.... The "better" option is for Atlas and Mantle to withstand the siege, and either getting everyone who can to evacuate with part of the military or get reinforcements.... Both are dubious if the Atlas military can hold, or even reinforcements can even be sent.
Ruby doesn't have a plan, she has a goal.
Konstellashon .................... and ironwood......... doesn’t??? They both have the same goal, to beat Salem, but they have to very different viewpoints on how to do it. More specifically, they have two different viewpoints on how to get through the imminent attack from Salem’s army.
3:30 also Oscar wouldn't get shot and Ironwood's mental state would be more stable
Immediate reason as to why the plan is good: Shooting yet another hangon.
Not shooting Oscar? Shit, the plan's one real flaw
Applause and a tip of my hat to you sir.
"IT'S OVER SALEM! I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND!" - Ironwood
"You underestimate my power." - Salem
Salem: "Good for you general but out of two of us I am the one with sandwich."
YES YES YES YES
*YES!*
With the depth of nuance you've put into analyzing Ironwood's plan and proper recognition paid to Salem's skillful handling of the chess game that was Volume 7, I'm legit hyped for the rest of the "What Ironwood REALLY Thinks" series!...
Thanks! Praise be unto our Queen
@@CrumblingCube 🤣
Nice jojo reference there at the beginning
@@AriesZero yes yes yes, oh my god...
@@thorodinson292 OH! MY! GAAAAAAD!
You bring up some very important points in the long term, however, there's very little we know about Salem's combat prowess. Vale basically fell and now Mantle is falling with Salem not even being there. This time, she's *actually* there. The only info we have on her abilities is that she can control Grimm, and that she's apparently a powerful sorcerer. Standing their ground gives the group an all or nothing decision that not only puts Atlas and Mantle in the balance, but the world.
Given that the Atlesiean airfleet couldn't even repel the attack in Volume 7, it may be hoping for too much.
In my own personal opinion, I would have compromised with team RWBY. Evacuate Mantle, stand your ground, and keep working on Amity Tower. If they cannot hold out, then save as many lives as possible, then raise Atlas.
Either side of this plan is a win, because Salem does not get her hands on the staff.
Salem can’t be killed, keeps a cool head, has magic and have very little humanity, but she can feel pain and a dangerous temper.
Also this might be speculation but her body is Grimm and still might be harmed by sliver eyes.
There a reason why she killed them in the past and as we saw from the Sea Grimmzilla not all Grimm vanish but get incase probably being tombed, the only problem is that she can easily break out or turn into ash but then immediately regenerate.
Salem is unkillable but not unbeatable.
wait, she felt pain BEFORE taking a dip into the Grimm pool. Who's to say she feels pain now?
Considering she went into the Grimm pool it stands to reason that Salem has turned herself into a sort of Grimm hybrid. So she would be vulnerable to the silver eyes and Ruby May be able to beat her. There are still problems though.
1) Ruby’s skill. As we saw with the Grimmzilla Ruby is still not masters her ability. She was able to petrify most of it but not all still needed Cordovan to hit the final blow. Ruby needs to master her silver eyes before she can even attempt to face Salem as if she fails then there’s no other silver eyes people that could try this again.
2) Salem herself. Salem is incredibly powerful and isn’t likely to just stand there and let herself be hit with the silver eyes. Between her Grimm, her loyalists, and her magic on its own would be hard to fight. But Salem can fight mentally just as well as physically. Shown how she was able to shader Ruby’s confidence with just a sentence. So she also knows how how to undermine the silver eyes as well.
For me the theory that ozpin accidentally created a new breed of warriors with out knowing at first and Salem wanting to hurt him bad by killing his descendents one by one.
Salem doesn't always keep a cool head and has been shown to be fairly cocky at times. Team RWBY and company could figure out how to take advantage of that and force Salem to make a hasty retreat because she let her overwhelming advantage get to her head
@@KeeKage37 Salem might just be cocky enough to allow Ruby to use her silver eyes thinking it won't matter. Even if it doesn't affect her it could still turn her giant zeppelin grimm to stone and cause it to crash at terminal velocity. Salem might recover but she'd need to retreat because it seems like a good number of ground grimm would also be kept inside it to drop into Atlas that would also be destroyed. Salem is powerful and unkillable, but that doesn't mean that she can't let that get to her head and get her ass kicked.
That would work but Team RWBY practically pissed the ops off. And when they hear that Clover died. That's even worse
Bear in mind, as explained in the video, this is a hypothetical situation where Team RWBY goes with Ironwood's plan, meaning the battle between the Ace Ops and RWBY never happened, and Clover is never given the order to arrest Qrow leading to the battle that got him killed
7:04 this is one of the reasons I think that Raven has chosen such a terrible course of action for herself. Unless I misunderstand her power, if she had someone she was “anchored” to she could at minimum transport messages between two points, and based on V5 people and materials can also pass through her portals.
The one bit of your alternate history pitch I might contradict would be Neo still capturing the lamp. She managed to succeed in part because ORNJ had to deal with avoiding / running from Atlas security after reclaiming the lamp. Without that additional distraction they would be much less likely to lose Oscar in their sprinting, be fired upon by security, or end up pinned down. Of course Neo is all sorts of clever, so she might still manage to make it work.
Yeah that's a good point, I was a bit 50/50 on that one myself. In the grand scheme of things it didn't really matter in regards to Ironwood's plan, so I caved in to my Neo bias and gave her the win.
One point regarding Vacuo: the earlier occupation by Mantle basically strip-mined most of the region, meaning that both Dust and other supplies would actually be quite scarce...
Guns!
Guns fix everything!
-James
General James "I shot a boy who is also my boss" Ironwood
Well that's one way to resign from a job, actual murder.
It works for the Doomguy.
Now if Ironwood was doomguy he probably wouldn't need to satellize Atlas either. Taking on the entire Grimm army alone seems more... fitting.
"The answer: use a gun. And if that don't work, use more gun"
-Engineer
At this point in the story, it seems that the staff is going to end up being removed from Atlas no matter what. This of course would result in Atlas plummeting to the ground and crushing Mantle underneath. The way I see this playing out is that Team RWBY, along with the Winter Maiden, will attempt to kite Salem away from the city long enough for the military to evacuate everyone. Once they accomplish this, they will make their way back to secure the staff, and use it's power to crush Salam and her forces in between the two cities. What do you all think of this outcome?
P.S. I would just like to say that this theory was made using the information we have based on Ruby's personality and morality. She isn't the type of person to leave innocent people to die, and this plan sounded crazy enough in my head that she would probably come up with it.
I also feel as though the writers for the show wouldn't give a 100% happy ending to this ark given all that has happened in volume 7. This is where the fact that all of the citizens in both Atlas and Mantle would now be refugees and would most likely have to seek refuge in Vacuo, as it is the last stronghold still standing.
Burying Salem would be a significant annoyance to her, which considering is pretty effective.
With the 20/20 hindsight provided by Volume 8, I can say that several things were discovered that generally move things in favor of RWBY's plan (though Ironwood's also gains a few points).
In Ironwood's favor, we do confirm that Atlas has farmland on its floating section, which makes the "eternal floating city in the clouds" plan slightly more reasonable. We also learned more about how the Staff of Creation works, though I still don't fully understand how Ironwood planned to use it unless it was just to make an infinite amount of Dust (which would take care of the water, levitation and fuel problems, and make eternal siege much more bearable). I don't quite know how this would work with the "make only one thing at a time" rule, unless it was only making a Dust-making machine (the Dust might vanish if the staff was used again, but if it's already been burned...). Additionally, since the staff requires precise blueprints for whatever you are trying to do, Atlas would be a kingdom quite capable of taking advantage of that (with its famed scientists and all that), perhaps making endless giant dust bombs to harass Salem, or more advanced one-off weapon.
In RWBY's favor: Salem has at least one airship capable of reaching high altitudes, and Cinder was able to fly at and fight at Amity's minimum broadcast altitude. So Salem could definitely get some powerful agents onto a high-flying Atlas, where all they would have to do is weaken the levitation enough to bring the city within range of conventional Grimm. (Or just free Watt, who could easily tear Ironwood's tech apart from the inside.) The military and huntsmen could obviously try to stop this, but the point is that Salem is not as impotent in the upper atmosphere as Ironwood believes. (Not that he'd have any way of knowing this.) Atlas has hardlight shields which allowed it to withstand a couple of days of Grimm assault. Since RWBY's principle demand was not so much "don't move the city" as "don't move the city until Mantle is evacuated", the ability to hold out for a few days makes a big difference. (Though I suppose it is unclear if ships could get in or out of the city with the shields up.) The Schnee Dust Company had loads of parked, autonomous airships that could be used to speed up the evacuation if anyone realized they were there. Ironwood's techs were able to throw together a working tactical nuke-like dust bomb in about a day. Even if they weren't able to make more (or make them regularly), that still gives Atlas a weapon that could put a real dent in Salem's forces.
Imagine this scenario: Ironwood and Team RWBY agree to work together to defend the city (maybe for only a few days). Weiss or Whitley realize the SDC ships are available and use them to help the evacuation of Mantle (and also let the military pilots rest). The hardlight shields hold Salem off for a couple of days while she waits for her siegebreaker worms to arrive. Ironwood's techs build the big bomb. The bomb is placed on a shuttle with Jaune and Ren on it, whose Semblances allow the ship to sneak past the Grimm and plant the bomb inside the whale. The bomb destroys or fatally wounds the whale, probably kills Salem's human agents (maybe not Cinder) and incapacitates her while the military and huntsmen unleash a massive counterattack against the disorganized Grimm horde, scattering it. Salem will reform in a few days, but her army will be gone, Amity Tower will be online and reconnecting humanity, and Atlas may have moved outside of her immediate reach, with Mantle's population safeguarded as well. No silver eyes or Staff of Creation abuse or any other deus ex machina idealism stuff required - just things Ironwood and RWBY knew or could easily discover they had at their disposal.
The sad thing is, all the pieces for a great victory were in Ironwood and RWBY's hands (even after the Volume 7 ending), but they just couldn't work together to use them, and a lot of people paid the price for it. (That's not necessarily a sign of bad writing or anything - it was the flaws of characters on both sides of the debate that kept them apart. The best works of tragedy are the ones where the tragedy seems completely avoidable, but character flaws cause it to happen anyways.)
6:26 Plus I'd imagine that once word of Ironwood abandoning half of his Kingdom to die to save Atlas got out, the other Kingdoms would be even MORE wary if not outright enraged at how callous Ironwood was, and might see it as a template for how he would treat their own Kingdoms if they offered him aid and Salem decided to attack them. Thus only further aiding Salem since it would irreparably damage relations to the point of no return.
The thing I see most people disagreeing with Ironwood on is that they seem to think he wants to abandon Remnant completely which... no. And I've said it before and I'll say it again. Atlas being the only kingdom with an army will only make conquering the world easier for Salem. I really can't see Team RWBY saving mantle at the beginning of V8.
Yes! That's what I was always saying (even though my conclusion was a bit different). Setting yourself up for a siege isn't gonna help anyone. Although my conclusion was, that stand your ground was the best option, it's still nice to hear someone argue about that with anything other than pure morality or emotion.
...I'd like to know the Grimm whale's battle capabilities before planning on anything. What can it do. What CAN'T it do. How high can it fly, how fast it is, how tough it is. How viable (and costly) would a test battle be in order to learn all of these? Also, it has a big yellow glowy thing right under it's skin. Can it be a potential weak spot? How thick is its skin around that area? Does it have the anatomy of a regular whale scaled up to that size (before poofing once killed)? If so, can an infiltration team be potentially formed in order to enter the whale's mouth via airship (under the guise of being eaten), reach what I'm assuming is the Grimm's core then destroying from the inside?
Yeah I'd love to know too. Relating it to a zeppelin was as good as I could do without tail spinning into wild-speculation territory for this vid
What if it's big glowing head can breathe fire?
I think that General Ironwood is doing the best he can remember that he is not only the soldier but a citizen and a patriot who want's to avoid the fate of beacon. He was just shellschocked by the events that took place there and his thoughts on "what if other kingdooms will attack them" of course we as a viewer know that they were rigged but other people might not know it. He wants to do what he has to no matter the cost. I feel bad for him but he is still my #2 in show (#1 will always be Qrow)
I was actually having around the same thought when it came to getting supplies, though I was more focused on the dust part but still. If I was Salem I would have flying grimm patrolling areas where atlesian (sorry if i misspell) airships would come down to get supplies and take them out giving no quarter. I would also find every possible area that has or could have a dust mine and either destroy it or take the dust for myself. This would effectively shut Atlus down. Also even if they could get secure supply lines between a dust mine and the city who would work in the mines? It is given to us that much of Mantel had yet to be evacuated and that is where all the work force lived, and I highly doubt that the upper echelon of Atlas would agree to work in the mines, "that dangerous and dirty work is what fanus are for"(want to be very clear this is just my interpretation of their thoughts NOT MY OWN). And if Ironwood tried to force them to work it would definitely lead to infighting.
0:35-0:43
you too huh?
Yup! I've sunk so many hours into those games it's disgusting. Still doesn't compare to the near 1200 I put into Fallout 3 as a teenager though.
@@CrumblingCube You should take a look at how many hours I sunk into Skyrim... Dear Lord, I need a life...
Why couldn't they just lift up atlas AND mantle? Just create schematics for a larger version of the device thats carrying atlas right now. This will have RWBY from rebelling against the government
What about this: rising the relic, Atlas can fly right? So long story short: LET'S PICK UP ATLAS, AND PUSH IT AWAY!
Attach some engines or some Other form of propulsion to Atlas (perhaps they can even use the relic for this). Load up all civilians and supplies you can find and use the city as a massive lifeboat/flying citadel and fly closer to a place where you can more easily reasupply or gain resources and warriors from.
THAT would have been a genuinely good plan.
Yeah, and James never said they'd stay that high forever. Maybe if they gave him time to think, he'd have said the next step is to go to Vacuo or Mistral.
@@konstellashon1364 and sadly he told them they were arrested before saying that.
@@diegelbeseegurke2116 technically, he ordered their arrest _after_ Ruby screamed into her scroll broadcast the intention to stop his plan.
@@konstellashon1364 well technically. But they were all already in full on standof because of it.
Ironwood in volume 7 isn't right but isn't wrong, he knows that he can't defeat selem in the current situation of his army and is presenting a definite way to save everyone in atlas.
WHILE
Team rwby aren't wrong but aren't right. They want to risk everyone to save everyone.
I broadly liked your analysis, but I have a few slight disagreements.
Firstly, your break down on the long-term is sound but the communcation issue still applies to a potential evacuation of the Atlesian army. It also means they'd lose all the military infrastructure and would have to sacrifice almost all Atlesians in addition to the people of Mantle. The only benefit I can see to abandoning Atlas entirely is that it's would be faster and thus let them set up for a second defense elsewhere, but if they can't do it now and the other kingdoms don't have a standing army I'm not sure what the benefit would be.
The second plan of trying to escape with the relic and maiden is riskier, because if the diversion fails they're guaranteed to lose all of their forces and there's also the risk of the evacuees being intercepted. It's hard to say if the potential for them to escape outweighs the risk of losing all of Atlas.
Forcing a last stand relies on so many assumptions, like you mentioned. Silver eyes or conventional attacks working on Salem, them being able to destroy the whale, Salem being able to be incapacitated, etc.
All the options are bad, because the riskier the option the more potential for success. It's definitely a hard call and I appreciate that you were able to analyse the problem from multiple angles.
I'm expecting that RWBY will be given the moral highground because of the show's past record of letting the heroes always get away with acting one-sidedly in morally gray conflicts. Their plan will be successful, or at least, Ironwood will be a failure in comparison to them.
Please have more videos like this in the future it was not what I was expecting at all and I loved it!
It'd be sad but penny could pull an iron giant and launch the relic and herself into space depending on her father's building capabilities it might not even be a straight up sacrifice if he can outfit her to survive the cold
Aaron Stephens that does seem like a good option but salem could make a grimm that can make it to space
Aaron Stephens I thought that it was established that nobody on Remnant had the technology able to get to space and that all projects attempting to do so have failed?
@@edgehead2695 I dont really rember them ever mentioning space though I do highly doubt they've been but a powered up penny with the relics help could possibly get the job done
Aaron Stephens I also believe that with the relics (more specifically, the Staff of Creation,) this could be possible. As for the mention of space-travel, look no further than World of Remnant: Episode 7.
@@edgehead2695 ok thanks but ye I think while difficult it's a sad but doable option
In all honestly there really is no perfect strategy for dealing with Salem's invasion of Atlas but I feel that it's easy to get so trapped in the idea that the 'main situation' is impossible that people forget that there are other situations that may benefit from taking a 'doomed' action. Or: The current situation may be untenable but rather than trying to 'win' anyway, one must instead willingly take a loss that round to avoid losing the game completely.
Oddly it is team RWBY's plan that does this better than Ironwood's for all the talk of 'hard choices' - The military and huntsmen standing their ground, sacrificing themselves as all the civilians get moved onto Atlas as Amity Tower is frantically completed will likely result in Salem's army being heavily depleted - Her forces may never run out but it does seem to take her time to build up the numbers we see here, and that time is NEEDED for the other Kingdoms to build up their forces and get ready to weather the storm (possibly to wind up doing the same thing as Atlas in the end but well that's the endless fight of the Grimm and humanity for you).
Salem's immortal factor is fearsome but all alone she can't stop people scattering in all directions, nor can she so quickly overwhelm the other Kingdoms, who if the CCT network gets back up will have forewarning (something that could lead to the unification of the remaining world against this threat as they learn of Salem and that Atlas was framed for the fall of Beacon - incidentally putting Oz that much closer to his end goal leading to less chance of insta-death for all of humanity should the Relics end up together somehow).
For an example of effective scattering: In one ship the Winter Maiden protected by the Ace Ops, in another her beloved younger sister and her friends, all with dozens of other ships with civilians going every which way protected by the army. Salem scores many kills this way but she can't just swat them all least the Winter Maiden powers go to someone random halfway across the world and if her forces are weakened enough she might only be able to target so many ships. ...The Maiden and her successor may require a suicide option just to be safe though.
Forewarning is CRITICAL for Vaccuo in particular as there is both a Maiden and the Relic of Destruction there, and if the Winter Maiden manages to leave Atlas/Mantle after the Relics of Creation and Knowledge have been sealed in the Atals vault then Atlas falling, while still horrific, achieves the goal of protecting them from Salem just as readily as floating Atlas up high as the Vaults fortunately do not require living protection, only that the Maiden does not open the door.
While it is unlikely that anyone who remains in Atlas or Mantle will survive, it does give them the slightest chance of doing so should reinforcements from other Kingdoms arrive in time as well.
Conversely Ironwood's plan may save Atlas for a time but it dooms the other Kingdoms leaving the Relic of Destruction(!) in Vaccuo completely unprepared for the full might of Salem's forces, leaves survivors confused and unaware of Salem being the true enemy and has many, Many, MANY long term issues even for just Atlas surviving (water, steel, Dust, food, morale, the chance for the Maiden powers eventually going to someone random down on the surface, etc) plus issues of Salem turning out to actually have high flying Grimm she's just never bothered fielding before, being possibly able to just use her magic to get up there solo to destroy their food/water supplies, or worst case scenario: After a short trip to Vaccuo she gets her hands on the Relic of Destruction and one-shots Atlas out of the sky in a single shot...
Aka Ironwood's plan is at best a pyhrric victory which loses everybody everywhere the war unless the people surrender to Salem hoping for mercy. =(
You forget that Food, and Water is still needed. Atlas can only hold out till that is gone. And the more people loaded onto Atlas the less supplies there are.
Once the Supplies are gone, all Hell will break loose, which would attract more Grimm. They also have to have a ready supply of Dust to use their Weapons. Which means they need Factories, and ready Supply Lines.
Also what happens when all the Huntsman die? Will they start conscription?
Four Teenage girls don't know the first thing about this. They are driven by emotions over logic.
Team RWBY's plan has more risk of failure.
You also have to remember, Salem can divert forces to form a Blockade if they wait too long. Which means they will have no chance of escape.
And if Atlas falls it would take Mantle along with it. A combination of Kinetic Force, and the City's Reactors detonating.
Ironwood's decision is most Logical.
Heather .Royall
I don’t understand how this makes Team RWBY’s plan any good. Mantle and Atlas just so we can warn Vacuo of Salem’s arrival. Would that matter, beacon is in ruins and would be of no help, Mistral is in chaos and would be of no help, especially with almost all their huntsmen dead. I don’t see how Vacuo stands any better chance than Atlas. After Mantle and Atlas are left in the same state as beacon, quite frankly it doesn’t matter how long it takes form Salem to rebuild her army. It’s not like she has a time limit.
@@fenrisvermundr2516 Uh huh... Looks like you missed the core point of my post completely. (My fault probably. I'm not good at cutting my thoughts into easy to read slices and I get derailed by 'alternate options' easily.)
My post was pointing out that no matter what *anyone* does Atlas and Mantle are likely completely doomed, and that people should instead be focusing on the big picture - AKA The rest of the World.
Or: To clarify - What is The Goal?
1) If your primary goal is to protect the people solely of Atlas for a short time then Ironwood's plan is the best, no questions asked.
2) If your goal is to protect the people solely of Atlas for a long time the Ironwood's plan is 'Alright-ish but with very serious flaws that must be recognised'.
Reasoning: An unknown amount of Salem's forces are already in the city meaning sabotage and inflaming of tensions are likely. Combined with Ironwood forcefully seizing control via Martial Law and you have prime grounds for riots and civil war. If anything (like say a rioter or a certain Fall Maiden) damages any those 'critical-to-survival systems' like the food and water stores things get BAD. Water, Dust and iron will eventually run out no matter what happens (as this video pointed out), it leaves zero chances of allies coming to their rescue, it dooms any attempt to unite the people of the world for as long as Atlas is in isolation, and worst of all it allows Salem to do whatever the hell she wants completely unchecked - If she's not having to fight off foes right here in the now she can go off, grab the other Relics, come back and nuke Atlas out of the sky with the Relic of Destruction.
3) If the goal is to protect the Relic of Creation or to prevent Atlas (the landmass) from falling then Ironwood's plan is again 'Alright-ish but with serious flaws that must be recognised'.
Reasoning: Atlas floats thanks to the Relic. If the Vault is untouched then the landmass will not fall, full stop. The Vault can *only* be opened by the Winter Maiden.
Using the Relic requires opening the Vault which puts it -and all of Atlas- in critical danger during the time the door is open, and if they should be fortunate enough to be able to get in there, raise Atlas and lock it up again without anything going wrong, the Winter Maiden is still nearby in the city with an unknown number of skilled foes at least one of which can steal the Maiden powers. Combine that with the issues listed in the sections above and even without Grimm or Salem to fight the Atlas Military is likely to be stretched and easily subverted, allowing for frequent assassination attempts (and that's without taking Neo into account - I'm not going to judge Ironwood's plan on a character he doesn't know exists).
Alternative option: Use huntsmen/specialists to force a hole any potential blockades of Grimm and get the Winter Maiden (optional: plus any other ships full of people that can be arranged) right the hell away from Solitas with all due haste, with a possible Maiden successor in a separate ship.
If this is done early enough then Salem will not have time to set up any blockades and this allows the huntsmen/specialists to focus on fighting to defend what's left of Mantle and Atlas; odds are the Kingdom and either of its peoples will not survive the siege but there is still a chance they might if the evacuees manage to get sufficient aid in time, and has the added benefit of warning the remaining Kingdoms both of Salem's existence and of Atlas being attacked/destroyed. It ALSO gives time for the Winter Maiden/her possible successor time to practice with their magic turning them from liability into something actually useful.
4) If your goal is to protect all the Relics or the world as a whole then Ironwood's plan is the worst.
Reasoning: No word is spread to the rest of the Kingdoms and Salem's army will not have suffered any losses. With Atlas now high in the air and unable to interfere with her plans, Salem can immediately swarm Vaccuo to flush out the Summer Maiden without having to worry about getting distracted by the Atlas Military attacking her from behind and allowing the Summer Maiden to slip away in the chaos (given Vaccuo's rep as a chaotic land of thieves it's likely that fighters there specialise in gorrila tactics and Salem like needs both the element of surprise and the power of an overwhelming first strike in order to smash and grab the Maiden without her being squirreled away).
If the Summer Maiden is taken then Salem just has to pry open Shade Academy's Vault and she has full access to the Relic of Destruction, which judging by how KingOfVale!Oz used it in the Great War to force the other three nations to their knees in sheer terror... If Salem gets the Relic of Destruction she wins. Full stop. Even Atlas up in the sky won't be safe (in the worst case of this just one swing of the Sword of Destruction and bamn, no more floating Atlas in the upper atmosphere).
Also unification of the World becomes impossible as long as Altas is isolated from the other Kingdoms but egh. Most people don't believe that's possible anyway.
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So yeah. My takeaway message here this: Atlas's survival does not matter in slightest for any goal other than 'protecting Atlas'.
Sure, it's definitely good to try to keep as many people alive as possible but frankly all plans prioritising the safety of the people largely end with everyone dying anyway due to Salem getting her hands on the Relic of Destruction sooner or later, whereas plans that focus on protecting all the Relics and getting the word of Salem's existence/invasion out there to the wider world have a chance of not dooming everything.
Both RWBY and Ironwood are (understandably) being horribly shortsighted because they are both being emotional and wishing with all their hearts to save lives (Ironwood is merely is laser focused on Atlas because he doesn't feel he can save anything else). But regardless of what either group thinks, when the plans are put side by side team RWBY's plan has less chance of dooming the entire world to Salem's tender mercies just by sheer virtue of *maybe* killing enough Grimm to delay Salem's invasion of Vaccuo a little and possibly getting word out to the other Kingdoms so that they aren't screwed when Salem turns her gaze on them next.
Seriously. This situation sucks for everyone involved, and Ironwood is far from keeping his cool right now (it's understandable why people fall for the facade but it's like Raven and Adam - his actions across his various appearances reveal the lie). Other people have probably done better breakdowns of this aspect of things and it's kind of off topic but if nothing else one should keep in mind he's either on ALL the painkillers right now or (even worse for cognitive stability) hasn't had ANY for that horrific arm injury. It's frankly a miracle the guy is even capable of talking coherently right now let along expecting him to be making the correct judgement calls for the survival of the entire world.
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Also because I have to ask: Why are you talking as if conscription is 'not' an option here? We're legit discussing plans that involve leaving thousands to die. Ethics are out the window at this point.
(Honestly the real question is not would they conscript or not, the question is do they have the time to formalise it as opposed to just going door to door, desperately shoving guns into people's hands and telling them to do their best not to die.)
@@kumbi8368 Looks like my previous reply to this got deleted somehow... =c Ok. Probably won't be as thought out as my original reply but:
This is kind of long but I'll try to make it as straight forward as I can:
1) Given what we know about the people of Vaccuo, it is they likely specialise in guerrilla warfare tactics (hit and run, hiding, using environment to their advantage, etc). Such groups have amazing lasting power even again more powerful forces once they get going and can stall for ages.
Using this type of tactic it is likely they can prevent Salem from getting their hands on the Summer Maiden (aka the key to the instant lose condition).
HOWEVER that is only if they know the Summer Maiden must be protected and don't all get blitzed by a massive alpha strike from all directions (like by say a giant army of Grimm lead by Salem).
2) Salem's Grimm, while endless in spawning (or at least we're assuming so for the sake of this argument), can only breed so fast - the main evidence being that she hasn't just mowed down all the Kingdoms with armies of this size already.
3) Salem needs an absolutely massive army of Grimm like the one we see approaching Atlas if she's to ensure the destruction of Vaccuo and the capture of the Summer Maiden (to claim the Relic of Destruction) before the people of Vaccuo can go to ground and start pulling guerrilla warfare stuff on her, stalling her out potentially for years.
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The reason Salem does not want to risk a stall war with Vaccuo is that Vaccuo is likely meant to be her master stroke, in which she seizes the Relic of Destruction and uses it like KingOfVale!Oz did back in the Great War to break the will of the Kingdoms, forcing them to obey or instantly die. And given her immortality that means if she gets her hands on the Relic of Destruction she wins. Forever.
To get to the point where this master stroke is possible Salem had to set up a number of things:
First she had to ensure Oz couldn't rally his Ozluminati so she has him killed and destroys the CCT network (Vale).
Second she had to ensure no one could predict her true target so she sent numerous distractions (Cinder, Watts, the White Fang) to Mistral (aka the other side of the world) after leaving plenty of 'leads' there at the Vytal Festival (aka that's why Cinder openly claims on the broadcast she's from Mistral. It's more misdirection) to cause havoc and attempt to steal the Relic - aka things the Ozluminati cannot dare let happen even if they suspect it is a distraction.
Third she needs Atlas not to interfere with her attack on Vaccuo: To this end she took notice of certain behavior patterns, namely General Ironwood's need for control and paranoia, and begin deliberately psychologically targeting him and his nation, the most obvious methods being framing Atlas for the attack on Beacon and flashing that Black Queen chess piece symbol everywhere by Watt's hacking program. This fear she intentionally instilled in him caused him to set up the embargo, cutting off contact with the outside world and preventing Atlas from providing any kind of meaningful aid to Vaccuo before she could crush it in that single alpha strike. Something that Oz's re-emergence threatened and is why Salem after hearing he's heading for Atlas she switched targets from Vaccuo to Atlas in V6 (or as Cinder puts it: "The timeline has changed"). (Side note: I'm not sure if she predicted the creation of Amity Tower. That was a solid genius idea on Ironwood's part and frankly Salem's worst nightmare at this critical point of the game.)
Setting all of this up likely took decades. I'd argue that Salem's likely been trying to set something like this up (all the while breeding the Grimm needed) since the end of the Great War but only now have all the pieces come into place.
...Problem for Salem is, that in order to do all this, she has to expose her existence and that's risky.
IF she gets her hands on the Relic of Destruction then it's not a problem.
But if Vaccuo manages to squirrel away the Summer Maiden in time and stall things out for too long, this could potentially buy the other Kingdoms the critically needed time (years) needed to recover, during which time news of her existence and that of her followers can spread as common knowledge to those Kingdoms, uniting the people against her and crippling her ability to infiltrate and sabotage them again.
AKA if she loses this chance for any reason (like say, not having all the Grimm she needs to ensure the mass Grimm attack against Vaccuo goes off without a hitch before the Kingdoms can reunite again and share info) the war between her and Oz goes on for yet another round as opposed to finally ending.
And Salem seemed pretty tired at the thought of having to 'press on' in V6.
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Essentially: Both Ironwood and Team RWBY's plans suck because this situation is nigh unstoppable but whereas Ironwood's plan is only good for ensuring Atlas's SHORT TERM survival and allows Salem's plans to go off completely uninterrupted with only a small delay, Team RWBY's plan has a small chance of disrupting Salem's plans for Vaccuo by forcing her to spend critically needed time spawning more Grimm or risk not having quite enough Grimm when she heads for Vaccuo by the sheer virtue of actually killing Grimm (especially the fliers and the whale).
- Also, this is not strictly their plan but Team RWBY did bring up discussion of finishing Amity Tower while holding their ground. They intended it to get reinforcements but while that's probably a doomed goal, it's still an excellent thing to do because it screws up Salem's plans completely (as the people of Vaccuo would get advance warning, allowing them to set up traps, scatter their people, warns the Summer Maiden to be anywhere but here, etc, all while informing the entire world of her and her follower's existence, letting everyone know Atlas was innocent of the Fall of Beacon) thus setting her victory back by years if not decades. And in the war of Oz and humanity against Salem and the Grimm, that IS a victory for Oz and the both of them know it.
Very good analysis. It’s shows the pros and cons of this plan
TheJaredPunch There are definitely more cons than pros with Ironwood’s plan.
Spenser Farman As I could tell. Team RWBY may not be perfect, but neither is Ironwood
Just thought of this, but Ozpin magic is running on fumes, so how much does Salem have in her tanks, and does the Grimification affect this, as it may give some link to the God of Darkness which was stated to have gifted the humans magic, making this more likely.
Ozpin's issues regarding magic stems from the fact that he gave the vast majority of it away to the original Four Maidens, and then he gave a little more away when he gave the Branwen twins their bird shape-shifting powers. So the only reason he's running on fumes is because he keeps giving his magic away.
Salem hasn't been doing that as far as we know, so I highly doubt she's gotten any weaker than she was during the time of the first humanity.
@@8elementallordsHonestly I feel the Grimm goo being clearly self sustaining magic from yee old days may have given her infinite Regen because think about the fact that it's magic was strong enough to scar her immortal tissue
This video just confirm my thoughts that the heroes in this history are either very dumb, impulsive or completly naive. Like Ruby could just pretend to be OK with Ironwoods idea to prevent a fight in the worts posible moment and that would give them enought time to help Penny and prevent Winter to be so heavily wounded, Qrow and Clover would not fight and the later would still be alive, and lastly reach team ALPN in time helping them fight off Neo and keep the relic and them scaped later, but intead she star a fight with the Ace Ops and now Ironwoods bets troops are knock out of the fight, heavily wounded or dead and there is no even Jaune around to recharged and heal everyone to be in fghting condition. No wonder why Salem always have and easy time if her only problem is her own subordinates doing something stupid and ruin everything, she just have to pop out her head an everyone star making very bad choices, Ozma sorry for saying this buddy but you need to star choosing better alies
On the other hand I think it's reasonnable to say, on Ace Ops side, that trying to arrest RWBY and friends was a terrible idea. You're going to have protests no matter what. Let them help Mantle and you don't lose any power in the Ace Ops vs RWBY fight.
Then again, Robin effed up on the Atlas Airship by attacking Clover, but Clover could've waited or dodge orders like: "nah, fam, I'm not going to arrest you, go defend your case. I just want to put Tyrian in prison right now." Or, you know, STOP ATTACKING QROW AS SOON AS TYRIAN COMES INTO THE FIGHT ! (Being able to rank the level of threats and dealing accordingly would be a pretty basic competence for an Ace Ops leader, wouldn't it ?)
@@sasugaoresama2 Yeah I feel you there bro I was wonderring the same thing when I saw that part of the episode, like what the hell dude you have a pycho serial killer with an inasane fighting ability and a former ally that it somewhat in odds with you but still ready to talk that is Qrow, I think the anwser of qho is the bigger threat is clear, and please don´t make me star with Qrow and his mind blowing desition of accepting help and them be surprise at the result, I could just make a facepalm and be sorry for team STQR and specially the one who was his parnther because he or she has to deal with this idiot, or maybe stop drinking made him an idiot..... sigh I don´t know
I agree it was stupid for Qrow and Clover to fight, especially when Mr. Psycho Killer is just fine and Robyn is almost dead.
In Clover's defense though, he did try to arrest Qrow calmly and urged him to come calmly to help Robyn
@@sasugaoresama2 "Let them help Mantle"
Except Ruby loudly declared in her scroll broadcast that she was going to try to stop Ironwood from getting to the Staff. Not going to Mantle themselves unless they force the Atlas to stay, too.
@@andresfernandez1756 I'd recommend watching the fight again. From the time Tyrian joined the fight he wasn't fighting at his best, jumping around and just occasionally hitting either Clover or Qrow as apposed to going fully in like his first fight with Qrow. It makes sense that Clover would think of Qrow as the bigger threat and not adapt to the changing situation. Qrow on the other hand, was trying to fight off both of them; he was going to lose if the fight continued that way so it makes sense that he'd go with the cease fire from Tyrian. And on Qrows decision, him and Tyrian weren't helping each other in the fight, they didn't even fully stop fighting, they just agreed to stop gunning for each other until Clover was dealt with. Also, when Qrow *spoilers* knocks out Clover's aura it's because he thinks that Tyrian is already dealt with, unfortunately (get it.... cause w/o Clover's aura Qrow's semblance is in full effect) his bonds didn't hold up
Your concern for water is offset by the winter maiden literally being able to create Ice without any need for dust. It’s literally an Ice Machine without any problem.
We already have a basis for utilizing natural body heat produced to melt Ice, so that shouldn’t be a problem.
Your forgetting that Ironwood planned on telling the world about Salem. So I am Quite sure they would welcome any of Ironwood’s fleet for being notified of what they are facing. To further that, assuming they are above the clouds, their city can be converted into reestablishing global communications perfectly, something all remnant would be more than willing to pay for their phone plan.
And in the long run (volume 8, as understood through your analysis here), RWBY's opposition to ironwood forced a stand-your-ground situation with fewer resources which could've been available otherwise. A lifted Atlas may have been safe from Salem's opening assault (grim river spout), all aspects of the siege lay unchanged. Salem's eventual boarding party had to be stopped deus ex machina (although it's not out of the question that the bomb would've worked) and even so, both relics were lost, only maintaining hold of the winter maiden.
There is one major flaw that everybody seems to keep forgetting, it has been stated that dust loses its power when it leaves the planets atmosphere. So all the technology that he would be depended on to survive would cease to function. However...
*Stands up from the desk*
general, I have a plan of action! First focus all main forces on attack, while this is happening a secondary force focuses completely on complete evacuation of the upper and lower cities. At the same time we use the staff to elevate the upper city to a higher altitude. When civilians are at an acceptable distance Penny removes the staff and evaporates from the area at maximum speed in a different direction than the of civilian evacuation. At the same time we are all military forces complete evacuation. The size, density, and speed of the falling city will create an impact with a similar force to a small nuclear bomb eliminating a large number of grim. Afterwards Salem would have to divide her forces between the civilians and military as well as trying to retrieve the staff from penny. Penny would be instructed to rendezvous at a particular location with the staff at a later date.
Yes, it dust does lose power when it leaves the atmosphere... Good thing Ironwood doesn't want Atlas going into space. He only said about lifting the city to the higher layers of atmosphere, he never mentioned leaving it.
@@PPWRUP its stated that dust looses its capabiltiy gradually as it gets closer to the upper bounds of the atmosphere, till it is gone completly when it leaves..
The dust consumption would rise dramatically, or tech woudl just be unusable becase its to inefficent now
My biggest take away from all this is the fact that none of this would have happened if Ruby had been honest with Ironwood from the start. He is a General and would have changed his plans according to the new information he is given. Also, Yang and Black should have captured Robin Hill because she and her Huntresses were stealing from the Military. All in all a great video, I think I'll subscribe!
I find it so annoying that many defend BY choosing to trust Robyn. Hmmm, a person you've never met and know only by rep whom you know for a fact is committing theft, or a general who has been nice and generous to you for over a year?
At least they could be told them they told Robyn earlier. Or claim they let her know by accident. Yeah , another lie but at least he feels less betrayed. Ironic
@@konstellashon1364 It really is, not to mention that by stealing from the military Robin should have been disqualified from even entering the election regardless of the reasons!
@@albireotheredguard1599 The only reason she did that was to provide for the people of Mantle. Ironwood keeping people in the dark about what Atlas is using the resources they need for is rubbing Mantle the wrong way. They were probably thinking Atlas is hoarding the resources for themselves. Thus, Robyn and her team took matters into their own hands. Plus the martial law is making things worse. Nora even pointing that the People of Mantle are taking burden because of Ironwood is keeping them in the dark about Salem and the project. Poor or not, Mantle is still part of the kingdom. I don't care if Ironwood and Robyn don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of things. I doubt she'll do anything that would endanger the kingdom by selling all of this info to someone like Salem just to help her people. If you want your people of your kingdom to trust you but you can't trust ALL of them, including the ones below, who can you trust?
You know, it's a good thing that Ironwood didn't leave the Amity Coliseum plans lying around. There's actually a joke I saw on reddit that goes like this:
Ironwood, realizing that he left Amity, almost ready to launch, lying around so Salem could follow him: "Oh, fuck."
Disclaimer: Tis a rant. You have been warned.
I have already posted this comment on another video, but what other plan is there?
Realistically speaking, RWBY's idea to 'stand and fight' will not work. At all. It is synonymous with self-inflicted genocide. There is no victory to be found in their current situation. Saving who they can is quite literally the only option they have left if they actually want to get out of the situation with an outlook for the future. Forget playing into Salem's hands at this point. Forget divide and conquer. Mantle's fate is already sealed. It will be wiped out of existence no matter how they proceed. There is literally nothing anyone can do about it at this point.
(Speaking of divide and conquer, you can even argue that RWBY causes the divide with their decision to completely oppose Ironwood.)
Yes, RWBY would probably survive the coming battle. Some of the other hunters, too. But all the citizens? All the normal soldiers? The weak? Everyone they want to protect? They are all going to die, swallowed up by the Grimm horde. They won't survive the battle against the army Salem sent their way (with her on the helm), period. The assumption or the believe that they can stop a second and probably even bigger invading army from killing the vast majority of Atlas' and Mantle's populations after already being exhausted from the first is… well… flat out wrong.
(Harriet had already mentioned the futility of not retreating from the fight and how it would doom them all. RWBY's and specifically Yang's response and refusal to consider Harriet's argument makes me question their critical thinking.)
Its open warfare at this point. A numbers game. An exhausted army sitting in a defensive position, which is about as effective as swiss cheese at this point and has no further strategical value, besieged by a vastly superior foe who is well rested (Can Grimm even suffer fatigue?) and relentless. It does not matter if you can keep 50 Grimm at bay when another 50 slip by and kill those behind you.
They can't be anywhere in Mantle and Atlas at once and are running on fumes. No one can beat back Salem herself (as far as they know); she is basically an immortal WMD in this situation. Which means our main cast will not be able to stop the incoming threat and both cities will be razed to the ground with most if not all inhabitants dying. The vast majority of whom they wanted to save will not survive and all of it will be on team RWBY's shoulders.
(Or there will be survivors and they will become hostages/slaves/playthings. Which is not any way, shape or form better.)
Ruby's idea of holding of the onslaught until Amity is functional is not going to work, either. Even if they manage to hold out that long (and I seriously doubt finishing Amity will take only a couple of hours), does she have any idea how long it takes for the requested help to be organized? Not even mentioning the time it would take for the help to arrive in Atlas, since a large part of it is on another continent?
We talk about two weeks, minimum. It will not be anywhere near in time to prevent the genocide.
Ironwood's plan: It has a moderate chance of saving a "good" chunk of Atlas' and Mantle's populations (depending on the state of the evacuation) and could likely allow them to do a Patrick and 'take Atlas and push it somewhere else'. Like Vacuo, for example. Also, it would allow them to regroup, recuperate and plan their next steps. For all intents and purposes, this is the best realistic outcome for the situation.
(Additionally, Atlas has the CCT Tower on it which would still give them a shot at the Global Communications Project.)
RWBY's 'Stand and fight'-idea: If they are lucky, 5-10% of the total populations will survive. The chance is high that in the end our heroes will have to run when they can fight no longer. Of course, they have to take the staff and the winter maiden with them, to prevent Salem from getting the two. However, if they do that Atlas will fall down, crush Mantle and kill everyone remaining on Atlas and in Mantle. Which will happen anyway if Salem gets the staff, something which is more than likely because no one can actually confront and stop her (for she is a walking, talking magical nuke).
So, what does team RWBY do? Instead of pushing Ironwood to delay the take-off until the last possible minute and urge him to look out for any incoming threats (aka sending out scouts) in order to evacuate as many people as possible, basically nudging him to a more morally acceptable but still sensible plan of action which could have allowed them to perform the miracle of 'evacuating everyone in the nick of time', they decide to oppose him completely and want to stand and fight.
(Maybe they even could have managed to pull Ironwood back from the brink one more time and stop him from discarding his heart completely. And with sending out scouts for any incoming threats they could have called Salem's bluff if it was one and no one would have been left behind. Or it could have been given them reassurance if the second army was smaller than anticipated and maybe they don't have to send Atlas up after all.)
All they have done with their actions is deciding that if some have to die (those still in Mantle) everyone else has to as well with no gain whatsoever except for their soothed morals.
And have I already mentioned how the Ace Ops are out of the count now, the same people who could have helped with the whole Cinder problem and maybe with Neo? Something team RWBY could have helped with as well? And how Clover, Qrow and Robyn, who could have ensured that Tyrian would be locked away for good or even killed, are out of commission because Ruby gave them incomplete information, prompting Robyn to act stupid?
(Again, ironically it is RWBY who causes the divide.)
Admittedly, plot armour will probably allow them to pull through, No-Sell the incoming danger with the help of a Deus Ex Machina and 'prove them right'. But from an in-universe perspective? To stand and fight is one of the last things you want to do. Its only marginally better than just saying f***k it and presenting Salem with what she wants on a silver platter if only because they can still send Penny away with the Staff of Creation when their decision to stand and fight will inevitably fail, leaving everyone else to perish.
RWBY was well-meaning, yes. Morally good and morally right, also yes. Was their decision the correct and sensible choice in their current situation if they want to accomplish anything useful?
Not by a longshot.
PS: Don't get me wrong, I know that everyone involved (Both Ironwood and team RWBY) had to make snap decisions and could not calmly think everything over like we can. If RWBY had a feasible plan with even the slightest chance of success, I would totally support them. Alas, Ironwood's plan was the only viable one given.
PPS: For those of you who think no one will trust Atlas again; All they have to do is record the approaching army, the fight and what they had to face. No one with all their faculties intact will give Atlas grieve for their decision after witnessing what they had to face.
At this point I just want the incoming genocide via Mami Salami and her dynamax Nimbostratus Monstro to happen just to knock some of the idealism out of the main cast. The amount they have currently is just not healthy for anyone involved, though I don't really believe they will. After all, they are not the best when it comes to self-reflection.
Okay, I am done now. Rant is over.
I agree with you. The only logical way this battle will end is with either Atlas being destroyed, or a Pyrrhic victory where they lose more civilians than if they had fled. Salem’s brought a veritable army of Grimm, led by a whale almost as big as Atlas itself. Our heroes have spent all night dealing with evacuation and fighting each other. And the y can’t be everywhere. If Salem was smart enough to attack civilian centres, then Atlesian forces would have to let civilians die to protect Penny and the relic, or have weaker security because they’re busy defending people, allowing her to overwhelm them. Or she could broadcast a threat to kill everyone unless the Winter Maiden gives her the relic. The only way RWBY could trip her up is to flee with Penny, and then they’d be acting just like Ironwood.
Team RWBY fail to realise that Salem has put them into a no-win situation. They don’t seem to get that it’s not about choosing the best route, but finding the lesser of all evils. It’s cruel and terrible, and that’s precisely why Salem went that route.
Also, nearly everyone who knows about Salem is on Atlas right now. If they fall, then she can go back to working in the shadows. I don’t think anyone thought about that part.
Holy saint Josephine and I thought I'd be on a rant about this. At best in an unbiased opinion I'd say both options are bad one just sounds better than the other and that is Ironwood's, Ruby's plan (goal) given that they have no guaranteed backup and even if they did it would still take too long, days for the backup to get there because Salem is ALREADY there and Ironwood's plan is to fly into space and hide. This video already said the reasons why that may fail but it at least could possibly put it off another few... weeks at best. Ruby's is in lame man's term sit down with your thumb up your butt or hands praying someone will save them.
I agree on a lot of your points, haven’t read the whole thing since it’s 5 am for me, but one thing I see is that Ruby gave Qrow and Robin incomplete info, but Ironwoods the one that cut here off so kind of on him there. Also I fell that it could be argued that they saw that ironwood was over the deep end and instead of trying to slowly nudge him towards a better decision which could lead to him slow fermenting his stance by bringing up more details that he will swing to make himself seem right, they attempted to firmly state that they were against this, hoping that either the Ace Ops would agree, or that ironwood wouldn’t risk losing them from his team. If either of these had occurred we could have seen the mentioned compromising and scout deployment although I would believe Ironwood would state “THEIRS NO TIME!”. Team RWBY bet on Ironwood to backdown or the Ace Ops to back them, both failed. I feel this outcome was from both a failed gamble by team RWBY, but also the tone Ironwood took when discussing leaving millions to die kind of made it seem like there was not gonna be a compromise on this. Ironwood didn’t ask, didn’t suggest, he told, and team RWBY took that as the point of no return. Wether it was is up to debate.
@@vex3488 Ruby informed them that Salem is coming, that Ironwood is declaring Marshal Law (which, considering the situation, is absolutely justified) and that he was going to move Atlas and leave what remains of Mantle to die and that they have to stop him. She did not lead with the important bits, namely the encroaching apocalypse in form of a Grimm army, the state the military is in and that it was a fight they can not win (Admittedly, the last part is where her idealism shines through since she believes they can, in fact, do it). Yes, she was hasty to get the word out since she was in the same room with Ironwood, but I still think that with those three pieces of information Robyn would have not acted as unreasonable as she has.
As for the compromise; RWBY dug their heels in, they did not even try. Everything they have said could be boiled down to 'hold out for a miracle'. 'you have to fight, you are hunters, you can't just back down', disregarding the fact that the vast majority around is not capable of defending themselves. I would have reacted the same way Ironwood had because team RWBY stating they were completely against Ironwood's plan in the way they did was them, to my ears and probably Ironwood's, not accepting a tactical retreat of any kind. No compromise. Full stop. Fight or die, that was all their words implied. Add to that the shown inability of them to make good decisions (Yang and Blake telling Robyn and kudos for Ironwood, I would have had a long list of choice words for them because only luck stopped it from blowing up in their faces) and it should not surprise them that their gamble did not pay off. I know I was not.
@@mayzzt5310 I was hoping Ironwood's plan was to go into space but eventually come down or move the city closer to the other kingdoms. I'm curious if you look through the comments section what's your thoughts on my comment about the script being changed? If you can't find it I'll post here.
Here’s one thing here that I don’t think people are getting, Grim adaptability. There was no reason why anyone would agree to live in the frozen waistband that is Solitace. The only good thing about it was that the harsh environment was equally as damaging to Grimm as it was for people. So the people used dust and technology to find a way around it and build a city that was safe from Grimm. For a while anyway. Grimm were eventually able to adapt to the environment and survive there. But as the Amity arena stated about the Saber Grimm this evolution seems to have happened fare sooner than predicted. More than likely Salem’s doing. Therefore it isn’t hard to imagine that it won’t matter how high in the atmosphere they go. Salem will eventually make Grimm that will reach them.
This is were I think the new whale Grimm comes in. Rather than comparing it to a zeppelin I compared it to a real wale only instead of water it swims in the air. A sperm wale which this new Grimm seems to be based off of can go as fare as 3280 feet deep in the water. Work that in reverse since this a flying wale and that means it can go higher than the Kingdom tower which is currently the tallest tower in the world. And easily reach the same height that James is trying to go to escape the Grimm. Meaning short of going into space there isn’t anyplace Ironwood can go to try and escape Salem.
Yup, Grimm adaptability was one thing that was difficult to account for. I didn't really feel the need to include it since Salem would win regardless if the Whale could get up there or not.
Hmmm. I think they want to go way higher than that... Think at least of Commercial airline altitude, e.g. 10 km/ 30 000 ft
I would consider evacuation to Vacuo off the table since sitting between Atlas and Vacuo is the landmass that contains Salem's fortress
Truth be told as reckless as Ruby’s plan seems to be it’s also seems like the best plan.
Salem’s goal from day one has been to turn, divide, and pit people agents each other. This would suggest that the one thing that Salem does not want to go against is a united front. It stands to reason that if you’re enemy is trying so hard to split up you’re forced that standing together is the best bet.
Jokes on us she’s got a nuke and working together is exactly what she wants.😂
Fletcher 12
That makes no sense.
.......it’s a joke. Of course she doesn’t have a fucking nuke
My theory is she wants to keep humanity apart, because if united Ozpin May bring the gods back, having completed his mission.
The only people a threat to her. Otherwise, Salem is as powerful as a fully realized maiden fives times over, on top of being immortal.
She is quite literally unbeatable.
Fighting her is a suicide mission.
@@KeeKage37 That's actually the most risky plan because that's discounting the fact that she could simply retreat if she really needed to which would be unlikely, because Salem also has access to a maiden in the form of Cinder, and Ruby could easily be either taken out early by Salem directly, or overwhelmed by the forces she already has available. On top of the absolute MASSIVE loss of life, and suffering the operation would result in, leading to an already exhausted military, which Ironwood directly stated, even more exhausted, demoralized, and weakened. Which I think he overlooked in the video.
And even IF she was successfully repelled, they'll still be under attack from the perpetual presence of the Grimm. Not only that but she'll either come back immediately, or focus Vaccuo while keeping Atlas occupied on survival. And Cinder already has access to a relic already, which could be factored into the equation. That "breakout" only works against traditional opponents. Not an enemy that doesn't care about resources supply lines or rest.
I want to add something on the reinforcements idea- Vale would be the LEAST likely to help regardless for a few reasons:
Firstly they're presumably still rebuilding after the fall of Beacon and the attack on Vale. It has been awhile since we last checked in amd we know Glynda at the time was working around the clock to help but it's probably been very difficult.
Second with the fall of Beacon and the attack on Vale presumably alot of huntsman and huntresses were killed or injured during the fight along with possibly many students who stayed to fight that we didn't see.
Third and finally they may not be as willing to aid because of said attack where Ironwood's robot army was turned against the people (he had no control over it) which could have been responsible for at least a few civilian and/or huntsman and huntress casualties
I thought that the grimm´s flight limit, was kinda like how they explained with dust in a world of remnant episode. where once you get a certain distance up, it just stops working.
i thought ironwoods plan was gonna be turning atlas itself to be a the communication tower.
while saving atlas and restoring global communication.
I honestly don't know why they don't just do both. Ironwood had a massive air fleet at his beck and call. He can start raising Atlas while using the airships to ferry people up from mantle and defend it in the meantime. Boom. Solid plan, Atlas out of danger, and minimal casualties.
No fucking kidding...seriously, thats a lot of airships. Did we just forget hes got enough firepower to turn half of Vale to glass at his fingertips?
Either
A. He's too scared that Salem is close enough
B. He's worried he'll let in more infiltrators like Cinder
C. He would've suggested just that if Ruby hadn't jumped the gun in deciding to completely oppose him
@Konstellashon- actually Ironwood wanted to detain them first before the fight started and plus he was getting played by Selem.
@@justynhill4814 no. He didn't order their arrest until after Ruby _screamed into her scroll broadcast_ her intention to stop Ironwood from any part of his plan.
@Konstellashon- okay maybe your right but do think it would have been okay to let the others be in the dark because if Robyn found out later she probably kill ironwood. I’m not saying Ironwood plan isn’t logical but that’s the kind of thinking you don’t comeback from until your okay with just letting people die for your cause. RWBY plan is 50-50 chance they either win or die but their putting their lives on the line like when they stayed to fight the lavithan to fix what they did.
I just don't see how either plan isn't completely doomed with the information they had available at the time. So they're just competing on which is less terrible.
But the fact that there's this much discussion on it in the fandom proves to me that it's a success from a writing standpoint anyway.
This video is hilarious to me. Not because i think this guy is wrong about anything or i think the ideas are silly or something. In fact I think he's right about 95% of the things he said. I just just find it funny that he probably put a lot more thought into this than the actual writers.
The way I see it teams RWBY and JNR plus Penny, her dad, and Maria already on the run or perhaps a distraction to draw Salem away from Atlas for the fleet to destroy the Grimm forces but I don't know anyone else seen it but there are wyvern grimm flying with the whale towards Atlas and last I checked they need bigger guns or something else to kill them. I love strategy games but I don't think tactically I just hold positions and protect Allie bases
For wyvern grimm with the whale look at 2:05 at the right of the whale
JNR + P I don’t blame you because I doubt we saw it but Looks JNPR reloaded and I hate it kill them all
This got me thinking. What if they were to use the relic of creation to basic fly Atlas to Vacuo. Theoretically, they could do that. And they could my fast enough to if not outrun the grim then to at least keep a good distance in front. The only major problem would be fuel as the airships would have to shadow Atlas the whole way there.
10:15 that's also assuming Cinder doesn't tell Watts, Tyrian or Salem herself, that Penny is the winter maiden and ran off with Ruby and Weiss.
I totally agree on one of your facts, even if ironwood's plan had worked, he would end up risking the live of everyone in Atlas, people would run out of food and sustenance, and they would all die, all because of him, the only reason he tried to do this, is because of his fears and paranoia had finally taken a hold of him, making all the wrong choices, turning his back on the only ones who would've helped save his kingdom, and what's worse, he even turned his men on ruby and company just because that they wouldn't comply with that plan, and just because blake and yang told robyn about the project, and since he's turned his back on his own allies, all of the atlesian military is in shambles, everyone is critically in danger all because of his piss poor choices, and all the deaths will be on his hands, if they somehow survive this, ironwood is gonna answer for his actions, and is either going to lose his job as headmaster, council member and general, or end up dead, either way, he's doomed himself and his kingdom, all because he chose to let his fears and paranoia consume him completely, so I don't care what happens to ironwood in volume 8, I just hope he dies for his betrayal.
the maiden may be able to take care of the food and water problem considering their power all winter seem to need to do is make a lot of snow and then boil the water and winter can also use the maiden power to make fire and maybe cause plants to grow im not sure seen we only need maiden use powers of ice and fire she could also make it rain on seen we seen maiden can make storms
She can also make plants
@@spinoirrex2433 very true and maybe rain we have seen with raven and cinder bitch they can make storms if they can also make clouds is yet to be explained
Finally a analysis of the series from a in series lens and not a good or bad writing lens, I’ve missed these.
To Ironwoods Credit, Unless Salem has some of those black tar pools on her then her numbers are limited. All Atlas would have to do would be pick off the flying Grimm and then make a big play against the whale.
The world is a bit ill defined at times, but we have definitely seen more settlements than just Atlas, Argus, and Mantle making up the larger force. It would be entirely within reason to think that Atlas would be able to fly, becoming a mobile headquarters for humanity to fight back with. As you mentioned, they have the fleet, but they should also be able to fly the city anywhere they want, park it, gather resources, and fly off again. Assuming the Grimm all keep to the assumed flight limit that is well under Atlas, then even a large city like Atlas should be able to break line of sight and get away from Salem. Sure it would become a complex game of hide and seek, but nothing prevents Ironwood from simultaneously sending the winter maiden away once the Staff has been used and then stored away.
With the "limitless energy" that Atlas already gets from the Staff, it should be entirely possible to develop plenty of new devices to assist the city. Be it new energy based weapons or powering incredibly strong water siphons, with limitless energy, they are able to do what is necessary. Alternatively, they would be able to ask Ambrosius to upgrade the city. The current wish would be destroyed, but does that matter if they find a request that would not only replace the limitless energy so they can keep flying, but also add in other self-sufficient technologies? If they wished to make Atlas "An entirely self-sufficient, flying city, capable of generating enough water, food, energy, and dust to maintain the city, and capable of flying above the height that any Grimm could reach", then Ambrosius should be able to grant that and create a perfect fortress against Salem.
But this is important for another reason; Atlas is the largest repository of technology in the world. They have the most advanced technologies, manufacturing, and military. Even if they can't address their issues in the long term, getting Atlas mobile enough to reach the other major Kingdoms would be game changing. If they can pool all their resources to fight in one location, they will be that much stronger. They could even use Atlas as a ship to gather the strongest fighters, rescue the other Maidens, and retrieve valuable caches of supplies, and critical time. The more time Salem is forced to spend trying to track or predict Atlas's movement, the less time she is able to dedicate to other efforts.
Very well done! Lots of research and many theories to consider. You should do more of these or perhaps some theory or predictions for the upcoming volume(s).
Ironwood has a change of heart after seeing team rwby and co run it down at salem mano a mano.
they get booty blasted, flee successfully, random ally dude dies- probably another aesop, now we in new place and have 2 trainz for big fight
I agree with your analysis of Ironwood's plan based what you said about the historical military concept of the defensive siege. As you explained, a defensive siege in and of itself is not an end or a long-term solution, it is simply a means of buying time in order to allow a real solution to come into play. In that context, I don't see any way for Ironwood's plan to work for anything beyond the immediate term. Salem would simply need to blockade Atlas and crush the other three kingdoms one by one. We know that Atlas has the world's strongest military by far, so I don't see any way for the other kingdoms to resist a level of force that Atlas' commander in chief decided he could only run from, especially since two of those kingdoms have already been severely weakened. Even if Ironwood tries to inform the other kingdoms and ask them to join forces, and even if the other kingdoms are willing to do so, his message could at best only reach them just ahead of Salem's attacks. So I see very little chance that any of the kingdoms could actually aid each other, or resist Salem's attacks alone. Then, with all other resistance crushed, Salem simply plays the waiting game until she can infiltrate her followers into Atlas, or Atlas runs out of a critical resource, or something else goes wrong for them.
So in my mind, that's the fundamental problem with Ironwood's plan: even though the other options are all certainly longshots, what Ironwood wants to do has zero chance of ultimate success. This is a case where losing more slowly does not help you to ultimately win.
Thing is, I have yet to see RWBY offer a better solution. Fight a hopeless war in mantle and lose everyone?
@Soulstealer56 I think that's what overlooked when it comes to people getting on other people's cases because they choose Ironwood's idea, despite the ones who do choose Ironwood's idea not actually liking the idea (because of morals). The only reason they choose his is because (if watching the show) his idea is the only solution that seems viable (not saying it would work, it could actually fail). Has RWBY offer any alternatives to the solution that both sides can agree on (with actual basis and proof that it can work)?
Shadow Saber456 that would be nice. Team RWBY argue over the morality of Ironwoods plan which is ineffective. He knows it’s immoral but it’s the lesser evil. If there was another way, he would take it. They have yet to offer another way
@@soulstealer5625 Why exactly do you think Ironwood's plan is the "lesser evil"? It sacrifices all the people of Mantle, and ultimately the entire rest of the world, in order to buy Atlas temporary safety but a completely non-viable long-term situation. The truth of the matter is, it's not really a plan, it's just Ironwood giving into his fears and finding a way to run.
I realize you're looking for someone else to come up with a clear alternative, but it's not like Ironwood gave team RWBY much time to come up with one before ordering their arrest. And frankly, when you're comparing to an option that has a massive human and moral cost for ultimately no gain, anything would be better.
Wolfeson28 evacuating and keeping Salem from obtaining the relics and maiden is better than sit and pray for help. With atlas ascended, they can either flee or stall for time. It’s not great but better than RWBY which is to fight a hopeless war, lose and have Salem wipe out both Atlas and Mantle. Mantle is screwed either way
The thing about ironwoods plan is it is really the best possible option given 1 assumption, they cannot win.
If there is no hope for them to every kill and defeat Salem then basically they are sacrificing everyone who will already die the end result assuming atlas can have enough food which I imagine it can based on their advanced technology. If they are that high up they won’t need to defend at all. You’re assuming there is a siege it seems like ironwood being a general understands these problems and that here is enough food and water and as long as that holds true it doesn’t matter at all because then it stops being a siege it’s just them only living in one city
Assuming they then all die guess what Salem does not win she will likely never get to the staff, at the very least assuming that magic like dust becomes less effective the closer you get to the edge of the atmosphere, which I find likely
It’s a sacrifice no matter how you look at it ironwoods plan is not good but I think it really is the only option they really can’t beat Salem head on with the information we have, yes it’s a show and she will be beaten, but they don’t know this in universe this is the best plan to not just save lives but defeat Salem.
I’m sorry but the heroes are stupid their plan is terrible and makes no sense and will definitely get everyone killed as opposed to probably get everyone killed.
I thought Ironwood’s plan wouldn’t work because Atlas would need dust and other things and he is abandoning the other the kingdoms to be ravaged by Salem and Summer, plus Salem can just wait until Atlas floats back down and just attack it from there or she can create Grimm that are adapted to flying far beyond the ground
I wonder if he would still shoot me, to see if Ozpin would react and save me. It seems in character for that guy to shoot kids
Well, at least we all know what Ironwood would do if there was a child in front of him right now
Oh yeah, stereotypical baby killer huh? Damn hippies.
@@irongeneral7861 YOU SHOT ME, FOR NO REASON
@@oscarpine7145 No reason? Trying to talk somebody down who is in command into not fulfilling their function is kind of like being an enemy belligerent. If they believe in what they're doing, no one will stop them. Not with weapons, not with words.
@@irongeneral7861 look I get it, you were scared shitless because an evil witch with an army was on her way, but really? abandon most of mantle and shoot a kid? how were you gonna explain I wasn't there considering I'm holding your boss in my head. "oh about oscar he tripped and fell of the airship or slipped off atlas." I didn't even try to fight you but you hit me with a McCree hipfire
I dont know whos side im on anymore😔
Isn’t the flight limit caused by dust effect lose at certain heights, so what is stopping a organic non-dust affiliated creature with a so far unknown need for oxygen, from either flying to these heights or being created as demonstrated by the flying monkey specimen. Although less air may lead to incapable lift, this still brings up multiple other problems. It is unclear what the life support system entails but I can not see how it could counter oxygen deprivation. Also all conventional ships are likely not equipped with the capabilities to reach heights unobtainable by grim, because if so incidents such as the wasp attack on Weiss would not occur as everyone would use this method.
- I do have a proposition for the current situation however. Team RWBY and their accomplices seem to posses the needed will and determination to survive a mixture of hit and run tactics and hiding from Salem forces for a extended time, which will also act as a distraction as they posses the maiden. Well this distraction is employed the funneling of Mantel residents to Atlas will continue well a evacuation of Atlas will begin. A risk factor of this scenario is possible enemy focus on either Mantle or Atlas evacuation, but the continued RWBY hit and runs should hopefully pull forces from the civilian populace, although potentially civilian attacks to draw out the RWBY group may risk operations further. After virtually full evacuation of Solitas as a whole of civilian and any non-aerial combat units, team RWBY will make a observable stand beneath Atlas, attempting to sell these efforts as a “last stand”. After drawing a massive number of Salem forces, hopefully Salem include, to the designated point, a secretive removal of the Maiden in the middle of the chaotic fight to Atlas will be made(It should be noted to attempt to keep Maiden thoughts on allied combatants in case of untimely death, in which case continue with new subject or eliminate enemy maiden and repeat until allied maiden is achieved). Once maiden has reached Atlas prepare final evacuation of Atlas of all personnel and prepare the fastest escape vehicles for rapid pickup of team RWBY’s group. Once all is ready have allied maiden remove the Atlas Relic and begin making way to evacuation vehicles. Team RWBY should before this event attempt to eliminate enemy mobileity options as much as possible to halt escape from the impact site. Once a pre determined time where it is still possible to escape the impact site is reached, the full evacuation of all allied members is enacted, well if possible enacting sustained fire to limit enemy movement. Once on the move all civilians and non-integrals should be on route to Mistral as they are the largest territory and hopefully since the first refugees have arrived from prior evacuation, have set up arrival points for civilians. Team RWBY, maiden, relic, and all other designated VIPs will begin evacuation to Vacuo, as it has less civilian population to endanger, has been noted to be most capable of enduring Salem forces possible infiltration. If the death of Vale maiden and subsequent friendly maiden creation is achieved, VIPs may reroute to first reach Vale to obtain beacon relic if it may be deemed useful(Request Ozpin for info), but afterward should still redirect to Vacuo after Vale stop. If relic is deemed irrelevant than continue with original protocol, although take into account the possible benefits of having the capabilities to call the gods for a possible final hour scenario before making the final choice. Once Vacuo is reached attempt recovery and creation of new plans as by now variables have likely either drastically changed from the current planing phase or new variable have entered entirely. Also note that if possible put some effort into either interceptions of the knowledge relic before Salem can retrieve the package or a third group may be dispatched at the “last stand” to retrieve the Relic before evacuation. If multiple victory conditions are gained(relic, locked relic maiden), consider splitting the party due to the possibility that Salem may lose track of a Maiden, but likely can track relics to some capacity when outside a vault or even always, which now with consideration somewhat justifies the obvious placement of relic vaults as their tracking may already be known by Ozpin. Final notes for desperate scenario, if the death of a allied maiden is inevitable attempt to focus their thoughts on another female allied member unless total party death is virtually guaranteed, in which case focus the target on a male subject or elderly subject to guarantee the denial of a Maiden to Salem.
God dammit now it’s 2 am....
(Some edits and add-ons have been made for grammar or new realizations)
That's probably the most well thought out plan i've read so far
If the relic can push Atlas up beyond Salem's reach, why not use it to take Atlas and push it somewhere else?
8:35, I think you make a mistake here. You take Ruby's estimation for travelling from Atlas to Mistral or Vacuo but fail to account for the fact that for 99% of the journey, they're walking. Weiss' aircraft trip to Mistral would've been much better as an example to use, though I can't blame you as volume 4-5s timeline i extremely funky. By the end of V4 we see it's nighttime when Weiss is heading out and during her fight with the lancers it is around midday. We can rightfully assume it takes more than 12 hours (I'd guesstimate around 15) to go by airship, though the Atlesian fleet probably have much faster airships than the one Weiss was in, but that's just from Atlas to Mistral. What about Vacuo? From just looking at the screen, it seems that the distance to argus is about 3 times less than that to Vacuo, though Weiss ended up near inner mistral so we'll go with 2 times. With this estimation, we can say a one-way trip would be about 30 hours.
Of course this is mainly speculation, and I'm not saying this disproves everything, but it is a significant error I believe you made. Unless that pilot took 2 fucking weeks to get from Atlas to Mistral lmao.
Weiss: Are we there yet?
Pilot: When will you stop asking that?
Weiss: It's been two fucking goddamn weeks! How does it take this long for an aircraft to get to Mistral? This vehicle is slower than a Snail with down-syndrome
Pilot: ... W-
Weiss: Just shut up and fly
Ah, allow me to clarify. That clip was edited in as a bit of a joke to show how Ruby judges time poorly, it wasn't meant to be taken literally. The thrust of the argument there was that troops or huntsmen will take days to assemble, supply, and organize everyone. So I think Ruby's underestimating how long they'll need to hold out for. Of course weeks is excessive, but I'm not sure what the state of Vacuo's transportation infrastructure is.
@@CrumblingCube Oh Ok. Makes sense. I'm sorry, I thought you referring to two weeks was you stating how long you thought the travel would actually take. But still, the pilot taking 2 weeks to get from Atlas to Mistral while listening to Weiss' constant bitching from here on out will be my permanent headcanon.
Pilots: Alright everybody, we're back with all the troops and gear needed to take down Salem and sustaiinnnnnnnn...
Everyone: *basically dead*
Pilot: Oh shit.
Weiss: So f-fucking slowwww *dies*
I had an idea which basically pulls a bit of a Thor Ragnarok, and a page out of Joseph joestar's handbook were the plan is this:
1.The atlas military is fighting and to continuing evacuation efforts
2. Have penny on standby with the atlas relic
3. (Somehow) lure Salem into altas
4. Have a specialized group in atlas to keep her their, preferably as a diversion and some breathing gear where penny will send altas skyhigh hopefully sending Salem into space.
Though this whole plan seems quite like an endgame plan since this involves removing Salem from the equation entirely this quick, it is unlikely to happen but I think this has some viability
Since ruby could technically turn her into a semi living rock (via silver eyes, cuz salem is part grim) this could work. Just hope she doesn't crash into cars, one of them is bad enough.
Damn, now i want a hamon semblance.
barring any super sayain type silver eye transformation, and or maybe raven AND a potential post backstab fall maiden neo joining to help(bringing a total of THREE maidens to bear), I don't see the stand and fight thing as a viable option. the best I can see myself doing in ironwood's position is a fighting withdrawal of most of the population of mantle while minimizing losses of military and civilian strength, and relocating to vacuo via spaceflight.
The General's plan is bad in that there's no way to strike. It would be smarter had Atlas been mobile and managed a fighting retreat towards another one of the kingdoms. The evacuation slowing down, lack of supplies, etc are all major problems as well. Salem however is just choosing to mess around. If she was intent on killing humanity she could have taken out the other kingdoms.
Or there is a fourth option. Make sure Most of Salems army gets to mantle, then since atlas forces retreat and atlas itself is a lost cause, pull an age of Ultron and smash atlas into mantle thus killing most of the Grimm and buying time for preparation for the next invasion since Salem now has to rebuild or spawn her armies for another invasion
I'm going to assume they have some way of recycling the water. While those big cables might be used to transport supplies like Zalem in Alita Battle Angel, it seems like they would of come up with something for the water problem already. Still the dust supply seems like the biggest issue.
This was a very well thought out video and really points out the flaws of Ironwood plan. Though it also illustrates that no matter what plan would be take, Atlas is still screwed, so there's no perfect strategy to deal with Salem.
There really is no perfect strategy for dealing with Salem, but I feel that it's easy to fo get so trapped in the idea that the 'main situation' is impossible that people forget that there are other situations that benefit from taking action. Or: The situation may be untenable but rather than trying to 'win' anyway one must instead willingly take a loss that round to avoid losing the game completely.
Oddly it is team RWBY's plan that does this better than Ironwood's for all the talk of 'hard choices' - The military and huntsmen standing their ground, sacrificing themselves as all the civilians get moved onto Atlas and Amity Tower is completed will likely result in Salem's army being heavily depleted - Her forces may never run out but it does seem to take her time to build the numbers we see here.
Salem's immortal factor is fearsome but all alone she can't stop people scattering in all directions, nor can she so quickly overwhelm the other Kingdoms, who if the CCT network gets back up will have forewarning (something that could lead to the unification of the remaining world against this threat as they learn of Salem and that Atlas was framed for the fall of Beacon - incidentally putting Oz that much closer to his end goal leading to less chance of insta-death for all of humanity should the Relics end up together somehow).
For an example of effective scattering: In one ship the Winter Maiden protected by the Ace Ops, in another her beloved younger sister and her friends, all with dozens of other ships with civilians going every which way protected by the army. Salem scores many kills this way but she can't just swat them all least the Winter Maiden powers go to someone random halfway across the world and if her forces are weakened enough she might only be able to target so many ships. ...The Maiden and her successor may require a suicide option just to be safe though.
Forewarning is CRITICAL for Vaccuo in particular as there is both a Maiden and the Relic of Destruction there, and if the Winter Maiden manages to leave Atlas/Mantle after the Relics of Creation and Knowledge have been sealed in the Atals vault then Atlas falling, while still horrific, achieves the goal of protecting them from Salem just as readily as floating Atlas up high as the Vaults fortunately do not require living protection, only that the Maiden does not open the door.
While it is unlikely that Atlas or Mantle will survive in the end, it does give them the slightest chance of doing so should reinforcements from other Kingdoms arrive in time as well.
Conversely Ironwood's plan may save Atlas for a time but it dooms the other Kingdoms leaving the Relic of Destruction(!) in Vaccuo completely unprepared for the full might of Salem's forces, and has many, Many, MANY long term issues (water, steel, Dust, food, morale, the chance for the Maiden powers eventually going to someone random down on the surface, etc) plus issues of Salem turning out to actually have high flying Grimm she's just never bothered fielding before, being possibly able to just use her magic to get up there solo to destroy their food/water supplies, or worst case scenario: After a short trip to Vaccuo she gets her hands on the Relic of Destruction and one-shots Atlas out of the sky in a single shot... Aka Ironwood's plan is at best a pyhrric victory which loses everybody everywhere the war. =(
We have been told Dust doesn't function in space.
But is it some sort of interaction with Remnant's atmosphere or is it proximity to the planet?
So the possibility exists that raising the city into the upper atmosphere would eventually make Dust inert or at the very least weakened.
Yeah I'm curious as to how the exact mechanism, but speculating on the physics of a fantasy world is troublesome to say the least. For our purposes though, even if it did weaken it'd just mean Ironwood would find himself depleted even faster.
all else fails, nuke the place. Get every one out asap and detonate all the dust, and nuke Salem and her forces in one go. yes you lose atlas but she will lose most of her forces.
that would be a good last resort, if it wasn't for the fact that her forces, are presumably endless. Even assuming every grim attacking atlas dies from it, and salem retreats, the grim pools will just replenish all she lost far faster then the heroes replenish their losses.
Honestly how Salem hasn't won already is extremely suprising. She has SO many advantages going for her. Immortality, an endless reservoir of troops that needn't eat, sleep or drink, magic. Tons of experience in fighting and manipulation. I don't know if it's cause Oz has actually done a damn good job, Salem is actually somewhat incompetent, or some other factor, but all things considered, a bloody miracle she hasn't won yet.
@@wildwesleywest Salem doesn't care about winning or losing. She hasn't seriously attacked for a long time. Either because the warriors kept her at bay, or because she chose not to.
@@GAnonymusG Honestly at the moment we don't really know what her goal or plan is. Is it just to make Oz suffer? To conquer the world? Destroy it? If we knew this, we would probably better understand why she hasn't succeeded yet. But ultimately like she said to Ironwood. Time is quite literally on her side, so she can go as slow as she wants.
Ironwood on the thumbnail makes me think that he wants to start a crusade to conquer the grimmlands
Stand their ground would have had more of a chance if he had forced conscription when he had the chance, and probably fixed his wall or placed some static defenses like anti air, mines and artillery.
Lol at the big ass team acronym XD I love it dude
Dust stops working once you hit a high enough altitude or leave the atmosphere. It may theoretically possible to kill Salem if you get her trapped on Amity and launch it and get beyond the function limit of dust.
I'm not sure if this has been pointed out anywhere before... but if the spear can make Atlas move one direction... why can't it move it in the others? Why not just park the Airfleet on Atlas, and move it to over Vacuo, all while above the Grimm?
I addressed this in the follow-up vid ruclips.net/video/-LS6HWy2_Qk/видео.html
But the short of it is, it's not known if Atlas can move in any other direction. The staff is acting as a power-source only. A propulsion mechanism or assisted tow may be required. Also, this wouldn't solve the other logistical issues highlighted in this video even if it could move.
@@CrumblingCube A potential way to get Atlas to move is to use the stockpiled Grav Dust and to jerry-rig the Airships to act as a propulsion mechanism perhaps? It's a bit ridiculous to think about, Airships rather towing Atlas or embedded into the city's back and hooked up to the Relic's power for propulsion. As far as logistics go, depending on how fast Atlas could go in it's propulsion situation, their stockpiles need to last just long enough to reach Vacuo. Vacuo would have the dust needed to resupply the fleet and city (An idea I had personally to solve the water issue was related to the one proposed about the maiden- just use the Ice dust to produce water locally for each citizen), along with the Oasis that should be able to supply however many people are on Atlas/those that were able to be evacuated from Mantle.
Though even saying that, I sincerely doubt Vacuo would be happy to suddenly have an entire floating city of refugees wanting it's resources, with it's own militaristic culture and... massive military. If possible it's still better than flying up and hoping for the best, or a reckles protagonist charge.
putting steve in there gave me the warm and fuzzies
ruby and friends plan is just stupid it is so fucking naive to think just because they all stand together they can defeat a (so far) unbeatable enemy it will get everyone killed and doom remnant, but of course this being an anime(?) the have million layer plot armour that will somehow make this fucked plan work
And Ironwood plan to just suck it up and be okay with letting people die just so you can win is okay. That’s the way Selem fights so your saying it’s okay to be like the enemy. The problem was that Selem made both side fight with each other the way she always fights. Also how can atlas pick up the pieces with the chaos after if they left.
Ironwood's plan is flawed, but at least he was putting more thought into it than team RWBY was. Their moral grandstanding and reckless mutiny may very well be the reason Atlas falls at this point. Because of RWBY+, the fate of Atlas completely hinges on a *fan theory* Jin was being a typical genie when she told ozpin that *he* couldn't kill salem and ruby's silver eyes are the key to victory somehow.
But they have put more thought in it, in my opinion. Ironwood’s plan is incredibly flawed and would likely be a very temporary solution. Salem’s main goal is to divide them, he’s just doing what she wanted him to do. Team RWBY’s plan of standing their ground and calling for back up has much better odds of producing favorable results. It seems that it takes a lot of time for Salem to gather a force of that size. With Atlas’ military, the huntsmen and students at the Academy, the Winter maiden, and Ruby’s silver eyes, I’m fairly certain they can weather the storm until help arrives from Vacuo (they seem to be in the best shape right now other than Atlas). Ruby is getting better with her Silver Eyes, so she could possibly do enough damage to the Grimm whale or even Salem herself that would force her to step back for a moment, which gives them valuable time to finish the tower and call for help. If Vacuo can strengthen their defenses they have a second stronghold to fall back to.
Now of course, this isn’t perfect either, at all. They’re both flawed, but I just feel like Ironwood’s plan is far too temporary and fanciful. Salem’s plan is honestly genius now that I’m thinking about it. Mistral and especially Vale are in no shape to rush to Atlas’ aid but they could potentially send ships for evacuations. Her original plan from her dialogue in V6 was to attack and cripple Vacuo next, but Ozpin choosing to bring the lamp to Atlas practically forced her to change course. That small change could wind up being their saving grace
@@amransom26 Here's the perspective I look at it in:
The enemy general effectively just facetimed them and said "I'm in the driveway homie, come get these hands." This general is functionally immortal, has a (as far as we know about the pools) functionally inexhaustible source if troops for her army, and is herself many times more powerful individually than any of the rest of them. That last point is especially potent since she can use *actual magic* while everyone else is limited to Semblances and Dust. Ironwood's response to this was a tactical retreat to buy time to regroup and figure out a better long term solution, albeit at the cost of those who had yet to evacuate. Had he been able to act quickly enough and had the full cooperation of RWBY+, this plan would have gone off without a hitch and they would be free to devise a better long term solution. Keeping the Maiden and the relics out of enemy hands has to take precedence to ensure the entire planet isn't wiped out, as that *is* Salem's end goal as far as we currently know.
Now, what is RWBY's response to all of this information? Stand and fight long enough to finish evacuations, but no plan for safeguarding the relics and the Maiden in the time being. This becomes more evident when Oscar gets mugged and Penny runs off with the Maiden powers later. Ruby herself goes on to spur ORNJ into action by giving ironwood's plan out of context in a way that causes panic. On top of this, the personification of misplaced priorities winds up starting a fight with his former comrades at the cost of his own life and the capture of one of the enemy's commanders. RWBY also gets into a fight with ACE OPS and incapacitates one of the kingdom's best fighting forces. ON TOP OF THAT penny runs off with the Maiden powers to join team reckless after Winter nearly fucking dies and refuses to side with her sister. Leaving 4 of their best warriors incapacitated, 1 commander incapacitated, 1 commander dead, 1 relic stolen, the Maiden running off as a fugitive with 7 other valuable warriors, and Ozpin MIA.
All in all, team RWBY's stubbornness in response to Ironwood's plan is the direct cause of Atlas's current FUBAR situation.
I don't think team RWBY was going to mutny. They just wanted to express their right as huntresses not to work for Ironwood and have their glorious last stand. It's because Ironwood wanted to control everything and have them arrested, that they had to fight their way out / Clover died.
@@diegelbeseegurke2116 Ruby specifically said she wanted them all to stop Ironwood's plan. She screamed it into her scroll broadcast. It's _after_ this that James ordered their arrest. Just wanna point that out.
@@Wookiescantfly yeah. Ruby doesn't have a plan. "Stand your ground" is a goal.
to be honest any strategy will be hard against an enemy with pretty much infinite numbers it would all b elike a small terran base vs never ending hordes of zerg
The thing I'm considering is that if the Staff of Creation can do anything else. If energy is all it give, then perhaps a right way to channel it could be the key to victory. But the problem is we don't know whatever method/catalyst is possible.
Yeah, Ironwood's wording is that it is an infinite energy source, but some people have run away with the theory it can do ANYTHING. Revive people? The Relic of Creation can do it! Need a mobile command station? The Relic of Creation can do it! Sawn a boat in half and Flex-Tape *can't* fix it? The Relic of Creation can do it!
So, making Atlas float indefinitely isn't an issue as the staff powers the entire city meaning the only fuel and ammo issues come from weaponry, and any additional air crafts consequently they would have the winter maiden which has shown the ability to generate ice from seemingly nothing which is means they could have the winter maiden creating water for the time being till they can come up with a further plan.
We later find out the relic is incredibly powerful, so I always wondered why they couldn't they use the relic to save everybody like create like pocket housing for mantle? A habitable platform dome attached to it?
Very good analysis that is close to my own thoughts on the subject but much deeper. You don't play siege with immortal whose army don't need any supplies. Ruby plan is huge gamble but if any other option mean lose it is only reasonable option. Death or glory instead of slow death in gutter.
Glad I'm not the only one who thought of the Sato tactic against Salem
It's so weird to see ironwood without a beard now
I see 2 thing you miss first is that if Ironwood plan work's how would dust work at that altitude? An how would they keep Atlas from flouting away from the main land? If the staff is making gravity dust wouldn't that stop working?
If 1 did Ruby plan to fight head on it would be a suicide mission...getting not just people kill but the military kill off and showing a battle field of dead or dying body an see how she look knowing that she call for this to happen would be a slap to her ego...
Now for what might happen... I can see Ironwood doing only 1 thing to save his people from Salem and that is to surrender to her an do as she ask well try to get the people safety away with out her seeing him do it...
And RWBY and group being hunted down...were i would like to see Jaune Arc, Lie Ren and Nora Valkyrie ask why did this happen? Then a speech From Ruby that Jaune does not want to hear and tail her to stop it. Making Jaune an Ren not want to be part of what team RWBY has done...and they pick to go back to help the people with out Team RWBY. But they want to go but was told they have to keep the Maiden safe and that u can't just pick an leave a task u made for your self...
So all 3 will go...an RWBY will be on the run for a time...
Ironwood said "high in the atmosphere" so I'd hope he'd raise it to the point where Dust still functions and not any higher. Dust stops working when you leave the atmosphere and try to get into space, so as long as they're not planning a moon-base they might be ok.
This has nothing to do with moving Atlas into the atmosphere, but what if Atlas keeps Mantle poor in order to get more of them to join the military since its conisdered a ticket to a better life and people in poverty often have mininal chaces to move up, by having a massive chunk of your population in poverty, and the idea that the military can be your ticket out, it is the perfect breeding groud for such a massive army. Especially considering that I doubt many soldiers come from the Atlesian upperclass. On a related note, the grimm are an excellent resource with how many different uses they can be for. Imagine if Seer Grimm could be tamed and used by the kingdoms.
What do we think about perhaps using the staff to finish the Amity project? Now this requires getting Penny on side and removing it from the vault is *super* risky. It would also require lowering Atlas to ground level. (Concept art seems to show that the hole that Atlas left behind is still mostly there and the same shape and doesn't seem to be residential.)
This may make it easier for the air fleet to defend in order to hold out for reinforcements from other kingdoms. Hell, some reinforcements might arrive faster than expected. As soon as communications are up, Raven could be there in seconds. Not that she'd help with the fight but Yang or Tai may be able to badger her into assisting with evacuation to Patch.
You think it would have been better if Amity arena was already launched and the other kingdoms do say they'll send reinforcements but after that conversation is over they find out Salem is basically on their door step and will be there in like a few hours or maybe longer to really get that linchpin by making it days so it's really a toss up? With that scenario you could have RWBY's plan of holding the fort which would seem vastly more viable then the original while Ironwood's plan would still be thinking of the safety of his people and trying to flee on a "Noah's Ark" type super battleship where they can at the very least fly towards the other kingdoms so the saving will come quicker but at the cost of not having enough room only for the necessary people.
God that revolver bit really works given his actions in Volume eight
Oh my god, I forgot all about that LOL
I will say the best way to beat Salem is by chaining her down with like 700 tons of pure metal, and try to put a seal on her forehead to keep her from summoning grim. Now one problem with this is; were they going to keep her? I would say the only two solutions they can come up with is putting her at the bottom of the ocean, because she can't die so she won't drown. The second solution I think they could do is just bury her underground and hope for the best that she can't communicate with everybody with her telekinesis. AKA her ability to control people (maybe?) One way for that to work is that they would have to bury her at least 500ft. As for any future cultists of her beliefs, the main cast shouldn't have a problem dealing with them. Also I think another problem they would have to deal with is Cinder but she's narcissistic so all they need are the Silver Eyes Flash and they're good.
(By the way I'm not big a fan of Rwby I just made this Theory.)
Neo wouldn't have been able to steal the relic so easily without Neo using the Atlasian soldiers against ORNJ, though.
Not only would she be unable to use them as cover for a getaway, ORNJ wouldn't have been panicking, soldiers wouldn't be actively them, and soldiers would be actively shooting Neo.
Could Neo possibly steal the Relic? Sure.
Are her chances of doing so incredibly slim, being up against the undivided attention of 4 hunters-not-in-training-anymore and a small squad of soldiers? Yes.
But she wouldn't have been able to steal the Relic in the first place if Oscar hadn't carried it around on his Keychain.
They even talk about how stupid it is, but never do anything!
You can't tell me that there aren't other safe Locations in the Academy that you could have hid the Lamp.
Honestly I don’t think they have any chance in a straight up fight with Salem. The only way I can see them winning is get all the relics together and the gods decide to help or somehow convince Salem to be good. What I think will probably happen but it’s stupid is that Ruby’s silver eyes cure Salem of the Grimm and she goes back to before she jumped in the pit.
Ruby "I have a protagonist speech for everyone" Rose would certainly like to try.
But what if Salem's power to control and manipulate grimm is tied to her being a part of grimm?
Ruby cures Salem and loses control of the grimm, later we see her jumping back into a pool to regain the ability again.
Or Ruby freezes her, Tyrian and/or Watts then have to free Salem. Giving them a bit more time? There are some ways to fight Salem, but non of them are safe.
Tobias Skorupa she might get frozen but would be alive and any internal damage healed and then she could get out herself. As for her getting cured I was meaning to imply that she would stop being evil if cured. I fully believe she can only control grim due to her being part Grimm.