downforce IS manly traction, hes the force that pushes the weight on the suspensions! sure gravity helps that alot on normal condition but with enough downforce you will generate enough traction, f1 cars are very light, but you cant reverse gravity with downforce, so gravity is the factor to overcome
Hey, before anything nice video!!! I got some questions and I hope u can help me..I am an engeneering student and I'm doing a work about this and I need to calculate the minimum speed that a F1 car needs to achieve to drive upside down. After ur video I can understand the theoretical part but I can't get the results that u show in the simulation. If its not an abuse, in some way, could you please show me what formulas and values u used? Also I cant find offical information about some things like frontal wing area ou lift coefficients, I am using values that I found in internet...Thanks for the help and hug!!!
Thanks for the comment, I'm glad you like the video. You can find all the formulas etc in the Javascript code for the simulation, it's all on GitHub, just follow the links in the description. You can play with the simulation online and see how things vary with different weights, lift coefficients, tyre friction coefficients, etc. There really isn't any official information about lift coefficients etc, all that stuff is closely guarded as technical secrets within the teams, but you can make reasonable assumptions - for example, you can find the typical dimensions of the cars and work out a rough frontal area, the car's weights are well documented (you can assume they're all running at the minimum allowed weight) and because they corner at up to 5g we know they must be producing 4 to 5 times their weight in downforce.
I watched this video by specifically typing using downforce to drive upside down. I also watched your chaos game video... I really like how you explain things. I am just getting into learning how to code and I think it would be very valuable if you are interested in making some beginner level tutorials for coding. I just started to learn hexadecimal. I was told that I was catching on pretty quick. And I think that is it tributed to other research I've done on stuff that interest me like Vedic math..magic squares... and Tesla's 3 6 9 Secrets to the universe.. etc.
Thanks, it's great to hear you got something from it! I'm planning a basic 'intro to coding in the browser' video, I think it's useful for people to see what they can do with just their browser and no extra software. Stay tuned!
Great content. I tried your simulator, one thing confused me, why the area of lift is not area of drag； I remeber their formula use the same frontal area, which is about 1..5m^2,
Hi Mickey, thanks for the great comment. The areas for the two formulas aren't the same because the lift formula uses the total wing area, which is roughly the area of the two wings as seen from above, but the drag formula uses some combination of the frontal area and the total 'wetted area', because an F1 car isn't quite a normal car but also isn't quite an aeroplane. It's basically up to a given engineer to decide what area makes most sense in a given case, and the calculated drag coefficient will then vary accordingly (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient). Although I did find some estimates of an F1 car's drag coefficient, they didn't generally come with the details of the area used, so I had to just fiddle with the numbers until the model behaved somewhat realistically in terms of top speed and power required. All the areas and coefficients are tweakable in the simulations interface so you can play around and see what values make sense!
Wouldn’t this be an unstable system? If there’s any decrease in speed, wouldn’t that decrease the down force, leading to less speed. Starting a feedback loop?
As soon as it's too slow for the tyres to grip, yes, you're doomed. So long as it's going fast enough, you can accelerate and decelerate as normal. You can try it yourself in the online simulator!
When it's the right way up, the downforce gets added to the weight, so there's more traction than you'd get from the weight alone. When the car's upside-down, the downforce first has to overcome the car's weight just to keep it held to the roof of the tunnel, and there's only a little bit (if any) left over to provide traction. For most cars, even those that produce downforce that's slightly more than their weight, that doesn't leave enough traction left over to keep the car moving at the necessary speed.
No, because gravity is pulling in the other direction. On the ground you have down force plus gravity to give you traction, on the roof you have down force minus gravity. If it just has enough down force to stay on the roof, it is essentially the same as hanging the car from a string, so it just touches the ground. You don't get much traction from that.
watched this after the useless video from mercedes, thanks for giving use numbers, good job
downforce IS manly traction, hes the force that pushes the weight on the suspensions! sure gravity helps that alot on normal condition but with enough downforce you will generate enough traction, f1 cars are very light, but you cant reverse gravity with downforce, so gravity is the factor to overcome
Excellent vid. Thanks.
Hey, before anything nice video!!! I got some questions and I hope u can help me..I am an engeneering student and I'm doing a work about this and I need to calculate the minimum speed that a F1 car needs to achieve to drive upside down. After ur video I can understand the theoretical part but I can't get the results that u show in the simulation.
If its not an abuse, in some way, could you please show me what formulas and values u used? Also I cant find offical information about some things like frontal wing area ou lift coefficients, I am using values that I found in internet...Thanks for the help and hug!!!
Thanks for the comment, I'm glad you like the video. You can find all the formulas etc in the Javascript code for the simulation, it's all on GitHub, just follow the links in the description. You can play with the simulation online and see how things vary with different weights, lift coefficients, tyre friction coefficients, etc. There really isn't any official information about lift coefficients etc, all that stuff is closely guarded as technical secrets within the teams, but you can make reasonable assumptions - for example, you can find the typical dimensions of the cars and work out a rough frontal area, the car's weights are well documented (you can assume they're all running at the minimum allowed weight) and because they corner at up to 5g we know they must be producing 4 to 5 times their weight in downforce.
I watched this video by specifically typing using downforce to drive upside down.
I also watched your chaos game video... I really like how you explain things.
I am just getting into learning how to code and I think it would be very valuable if you are interested in making some beginner level tutorials for coding.
I just started to learn hexadecimal.
I was told that I was catching on pretty quick. And I think that is it tributed to other research I've done on stuff that interest me like Vedic math..magic squares... and Tesla's 3 6 9 Secrets to the universe.. etc.
Thanks, it's great to hear you got something from it! I'm planning a basic 'intro to coding in the browser' video, I think it's useful for people to see what they can do with just their browser and no extra software. Stay tuned!
Great content. I tried your simulator, one thing confused me, why the area of lift is not area of drag； I remeber their formula use the same frontal area, which is about 1..5m^2,
Hi Mickey, thanks for the great comment. The areas for the two formulas aren't the same because the lift formula uses the total wing area, which is roughly the area of the two wings as seen from above, but the drag formula uses some combination of the frontal area and the total 'wetted area', because an F1 car isn't quite a normal car but also isn't quite an aeroplane. It's basically up to a given engineer to decide what area makes most sense in a given case, and the calculated drag coefficient will then vary accordingly (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient). Although I did find some estimates of an F1 car's drag coefficient, they didn't generally come with the details of the area used, so I had to just fiddle with the numbers until the model behaved somewhat realistically in terms of top speed and power required. All the areas and coefficients are tweakable in the simulations interface so you can play around and see what values make sense!
@@ChrisBLong Thanks a lot, I will dig more on this.Anyway, your simulator is awesome
I really hope we get the chance to see this in real life someday, they can use a virtual driver instead of a real person to minimise the risk
T
Why does the Leicester paper includes Cd in the downforce formula ? Isn't it supposed to be Cl ?
I assume they mean 'coefficient of downforce' rather than 'coefficient of drag', though I agree that it's confusing.
Wouldn’t this be an unstable system? If there’s any decrease in speed, wouldn’t that decrease the down force, leading to less speed. Starting a feedback loop?
As soon as it's too slow for the tyres to grip, yes, you're doomed. So long as it's going fast enough, you can accelerate and decelerate as normal. You can try it yourself in the online simulator!
But if the car is creating that much down force, wouldn't the force pushing down on the car give the tires the need traction?
When it's the right way up, the downforce gets added to the weight, so there's more traction than you'd get from the weight alone. When the car's upside-down, the downforce first has to overcome the car's weight just to keep it held to the roof of the tunnel, and there's only a little bit (if any) left over to provide traction. For most cars, even those that produce downforce that's slightly more than their weight, that doesn't leave enough traction left over to keep the car moving at the necessary speed.
No, because gravity is pulling in the other direction. On the ground you have down force plus gravity to give you traction, on the roof you have down force minus gravity. If it just has enough down force to stay on the roof, it is essentially the same as hanging the car from a string, so it just touches the ground. You don't get much traction from that.
Nice video