Didn't St Therese say something like "The Church requires me to believe in hell, but not that anybody goes there"? That might have started B and vS down that path. God bless you guys, and thanks for the insightful talk.
I'm not familiar with the quote, but that's interesting. Of course it is always *possible* that in our time, nobody currently living will be damned. Everyone can accept God's grace. But the weight of testimony from Scripture, the saints, Popes and approved private revelations is that many are already in hell. And of course, we know for certain that there are fallen angels in hell who will be damned for all time. Which I think is rather a problem for those who wish for an empty hell because they can't square the traditional view with God's mercy. Thanks for your comment! God bless you.
I honestly think there is an attempt to do away with the mystery of God's love and justice here, perhaps on the part of just the sort of people who claim to respect mystery more than the traditional view. They can't understand in their limited intellect how God could be at peace if anyone were in hell, so they try to do away with it.
At minute 2:14, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is mentioned. However, in number 1058 we read: "Ecclesia orat ut nullus se perdat". That means that hope in universal salvation is not contrary to faith. Even more: it is what is expected of a Christian. Balthasar does not affirm that hell is empty, nor does he deny the possibility of damnation, but rather maintains that hope must be lived in a radical way, in communion with "the mind/feelings of Christ" (Phil 2:5), who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance" (CCE 1037). The point is that only God is the Judge. Only He knows. Balthasar does not speak for himself, but gives voice to an often unheard tradition (with Scriptural basis). Of course, you may not agree, but you cannot dismiss it as unserious. And his view of hell (and divine wrath) is anything but trivial.
Of course it is possible that all given human beings alive on Earth at this moment may be saved, and this is what we pray for: the Catechism does not say "the Church prays that no one may have been lost", but "that no one may be lost". But that all human beings who have ever lived have been saved is not possible, as this is contrary to the data of revelation: It is de fide divina, revealed by Christ, that Judas is in hell. He says this twice: not just in the frequently cited Matthew 26:24, but also John 17:12, where, praying to the Father and putting His whole earthly mission in the past tense as though all had already been accomplished, He says, "not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction". More broadly, there is a tradition that says all are not saved - not an unheard one, but the overwhelming one which we have heard and received. Only God knows - and it just happens that every saint who has received a revelation on this subject was told by God or one of His messengers that human beings do in fact end up in hell, even if we don't know who they are (aside from Judas). Also worth noting that there is a difference between hoping that all will be saved (meaning hoping for each individual) and hoping that all will be saved collectively (in the sense of thinking this anything but immensely improbable, even though we ought pray and act to save the maximum number). To make an analogy, it is theologically possible by God's grace that I will never commit another sin in my life, and I should apply this hope to each individual action - but the Church would never allow me to, say, take a solemn vow never to commit a venial sin for the rest of my life, because she would rightly view that as virtually impossible. Balthasar seems to take the opposite of this common sense view with his claim that damnation can be "infinitely improbable"!
@@CatholicCulturePod In a constructive spirit: I think that your interpretation of the quotation from the Catechism and the biblical verses is arguable. It does not seem obvious to me that the Catechism refers exclusively to those who live in this time, nor does it seem obvious to me that Jesus refers to the "eternal" perdition of Judas (should it be said then that St. Peter is condemned because Christ once called him Satan? Do we know clearly what "son of perdition" means (cf. 2 Thes 2:3-4)? Dei Verbum tells us that Scripture should be interpreted as a whole, and there are other verses (besides 1 Tim 2:4) that are worth meditating on, such as 1 Corinthians 15:28. The International Theological Commission has said in its 1992 document: "The Church has never once declared the damnation of a single person as a concrete fact" (10,3) [published with the approval of Cardinal Ratzinger, President of the Commission and Prefect of the CDF]. Finally, and I repeat, with the sole intention of reflecting the truth of Christ: that there may be condemned, I don't deny it, but shouldn't we want everyone to be saved? As long as there is a chance, we have the right (and the duty) to cling to it. Difficult as it may seem, we believe that "what is impossible for men, is possible for God" (Luke 18:27). Blessings to you all.
The Church does not teach that Judas is finally irretrievabl damned. That's a theologoumenon, not de fide. What is de fide is that we pray hopefully for the salvation of all. The Divine Office makes this very clear and leaves the Strong Infernalists no wiggle room. Lex orandi lex credendi!
Think of the people around you, those you love, those you dislike. They may end up eternally seperated from God in joyless darkness and agony forever. If you do not want that, do something more about it to help them avoid it. We all must ask ourselves this question from time to time. Not so often we obsess, worry incessantly or worse despair. But often enough to reveal how very selfish we truly are and to plead for the grace to act, and then take that action for the love of God and thus for souls and their salvation. This is our highest possible love of our neighbors here.
How many people do you know who love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength and their neighbor as themselves? How many people do you know who actually forgive others?
Didn't St Therese say something like "The Church requires me to believe in hell, but not that anybody goes there"? That might have started B and vS down that path. God bless you guys, and thanks for the insightful talk.
I'm not familiar with the quote, but that's interesting. Of course it is always *possible* that in our time, nobody currently living will be damned. Everyone can accept God's grace. But the weight of testimony from Scripture, the saints, Popes and approved private revelations is that many are already in hell.
And of course, we know for certain that there are fallen angels in hell who will be damned for all time. Which I think is rather a problem for those who wish for an empty hell because they can't square the traditional view with God's mercy.
Thanks for your comment! God bless you.
I honestly think there is an attempt to do away with the mystery of God's love and justice here, perhaps on the part of just the sort of people who claim to respect mystery more than the traditional view. They can't understand in their limited intellect how God could be at peace if anyone were in hell, so they try to do away with it.
At minute 2:14, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is mentioned. However, in number 1058 we read: "Ecclesia orat ut nullus se perdat". That means that hope in universal salvation is not contrary to faith. Even more: it is what is expected of a Christian. Balthasar does not affirm that hell is empty, nor does he deny the possibility of damnation, but rather maintains that hope must be lived in a radical way, in communion with "the mind/feelings of Christ" (Phil 2:5), who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance" (CCE 1037). The point is that only God is the Judge. Only He knows. Balthasar does not speak for himself, but gives voice to an often unheard tradition (with Scriptural basis). Of course, you may not agree, but you cannot dismiss it as unserious. And his view of hell (and divine wrath) is anything but trivial.
Of course it is possible that all given human beings alive on Earth at this moment may be saved, and this is what we pray for: the Catechism does not say "the Church prays that no one may have been lost", but "that no one may be lost". But that all human beings who have ever lived have been saved is not possible, as this is contrary to the data of revelation:
It is de fide divina, revealed by Christ, that Judas is in hell. He says this twice: not just in the frequently cited Matthew 26:24, but also John 17:12, where, praying to the Father and putting His whole earthly mission in the past tense as though all had already been accomplished, He says, "not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction".
More broadly, there is a tradition that says all are not saved - not an unheard one, but the overwhelming one which we have heard and received. Only God knows - and it just happens that every saint who has received a revelation on this subject was told by God or one of His messengers that human beings do in fact end up in hell, even if we don't know who they are (aside from Judas).
Also worth noting that there is a difference between hoping that all will be saved (meaning hoping for each individual) and hoping that all will be saved collectively (in the sense of thinking this anything but immensely improbable, even though we ought pray and act to save the maximum number). To make an analogy, it is theologically possible by God's grace that I will never commit another sin in my life, and I should apply this hope to each individual action - but the Church would never allow me to, say, take a solemn vow never to commit a venial sin for the rest of my life, because she would rightly view that as virtually impossible. Balthasar seems to take the opposite of this common sense view with his claim that damnation can be "infinitely improbable"!
@@CatholicCulturePod In a constructive spirit: I think that your interpretation of the quotation from the Catechism and the biblical verses is arguable. It does not seem obvious to me that the Catechism refers exclusively to those who live in this time, nor does it seem obvious to me that Jesus refers to the "eternal" perdition of Judas (should it be said then that St. Peter is condemned because Christ once called him Satan? Do we know clearly what "son of perdition" means (cf. 2 Thes 2:3-4)? Dei Verbum tells us that Scripture should be interpreted as a whole, and there are other verses (besides 1 Tim 2:4) that are worth meditating on, such as 1 Corinthians 15:28. The International Theological Commission has said in its 1992 document: "The Church has never once declared the damnation of a single person as a concrete fact" (10,3) [published with the approval of Cardinal Ratzinger, President of the Commission and Prefect of the CDF].
Finally, and I repeat, with the sole intention of reflecting the truth of Christ: that there may be condemned, I don't deny it, but shouldn't we want everyone to be saved? As long as there is a chance, we have the right (and the duty) to cling to it. Difficult as it may seem, we believe that "what is impossible for men, is possible for God" (Luke 18:27). Blessings to you all.
@@afdcio I don't have anything more to respond, but thanks for your comments. Blessings.
The Church does not teach that Judas is finally irretrievabl damned. That's a theologoumenon, not de fide. What is de fide is that we pray hopefully for the salvation of all. The Divine Office makes this very clear and leaves the Strong Infernalists no wiggle room. Lex orandi lex credendi!
Think of the people around you, those you love, those you dislike. They may end up eternally seperated from God in joyless darkness and agony forever.
If you do not want that, do something more about it to help them avoid it.
We all must ask ourselves this question from time to time. Not so often we obsess, worry incessantly or worse despair. But often enough to reveal how very selfish we truly are and to plead for the grace to act, and then take that action for the love of God and thus for souls and their salvation. This is our highest possible love of our neighbors here.
Amen!
Wow. Thank you. I had not known this. Fortunately Speer was only on my reading list. Haven't touched her. And won't now...
How many people do you know who love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength and their neighbor as themselves? How many people do you know who actually forgive others?
I know some.
@@CatholicCulturePod I hope I do, but it's really more of a rhetorical question.