@@iljagris7017 ...but we are the only ones using this phrase with a huge unsaid "Dio porco!" deep in our heavy hearts. Daniel, please, I need more Bavarian Diet stories. May your spindle roar safely and your endmills stay sharp! Farewell!
The best tip I gave myself in the years is work like someone (which is yourself haha) is trying to sabotage you Every new programm or every additional change (like changing the Z height) run the complete programm with slow rapids and slow plunges Yes you waste maby a couple of minutes, but destroying your machine or even just scrapping 1 part will cost you more
I agree...esspacially with feed rates of 30m/min..... I sometimes dont understand why certain movenments have to be 100 percent when time gain is low and damage can be high....
We also own a Hermle machine, - The C32. Words are not enough to describe the professionalism of the maintenance crew. We had a spindle seizure, the reason unknown. Everything was fixed extremely fast, even under very difficult COVID restrictions. Honestly, Hermle Technicians can be compared to Olympic athletes in their professionalism.
Yeah, we have italian morbidelli machines and those maintenance people (not italians, they are Czechs) can do real magic, we have several fires, one 5axis huge machine was totaly burned, like completely and they fixed it in 2 weeks. But on newer machine, everything is more complicated (like set something, modify axis or something, there is some online lock which prevents anyone from going to that settings, which is really a pain) and even maintenance people sometimes don't know what to do with that, but they will always find out and solve that at the end. After 8 years and several accidents, I can fix a lot of things by myself and sometimes you can make repair faster when you know that maintenance people need to change some part which is deep in machine and it takes a lot of time to get it out, so I will start with dissasembling it before they arrive to make it faster then and then they will just install a new part. Ofcourse I can't do this with things like spindle with cables and pressure air tubes everywhere, they need to mark it carefully to return it where it was previously, but with some parts, you can start without them, especially things which you were dissesembling like milion times and you already know. It happens often that maintenance person don't know how to dissasamble that and he has to find out first and I have documentation of parts too in .pdf on my computer, so sometimes we are working on it together to find out, they are just people and each machine is different. When I started on CNC machines, I was always shocked when I asked something a maintenance person and he was like "How can I know that? Each machine is different and I see this machine for the first time." 🙂 But now I know, each machine is really different and they don't do only CNC machines, they do everything and some modern saws or plate calibration sanders can be complicated the same as CNC machine. Ofcourse you can't do this with totaly new machine, but when you have old machine, it's mostly not a problem.
Very interesting video! Thanks for being so open about it. It sucks that the crash was because of a tipping error. It may work if you set the offset not manually but with your probe so let the probe move down in z with a long distance to go until it touches and set z0. Then after the first part start the program again. If the distance to go is big enough the probe should travel further down then the first z0 to get the new z0 position 50 mm down
Please do, Bavaria cnc. I saw some other great suggestions in the comments, and I'm always interested in better ways to increase confidence in a program or process. Personally I try to avoid doing anything manually like that if I can. With fanuc style controllers, you can adjust the work offset in the program with G4 L10 G91 P1 Z-25.4, or something like that. I can't recall perfectly what the code is, but that is my point: People are really good at coming up with clever ways to do things, but computers Excel at doing exactly what you tell it to do reliably. Automate everything!
Depending on CAM software you could probably have the different levels of 3 parts modeled in and set toolpaths so once one level of 3 is done milling cnc pauses after the saw removes under the parts, remove parts by hand than click continue to start a surfacing and continue onto the level bellow. Considering you just machined the surface to get to the bottom of parts there shouldn't be a need to probe since machine just machined with a tool that has been measured by a tool height sensor. He messed up by having to type in a offset which opened up the possibility for human error if everything was all programmed in CAM this opportunity wouldn't have occurred.
As a programmer I have to say you must eliminate the human error , as far as possible. Changing offset manual multiple times in a production run is dangerous. So either automate the offset or code a small “M0” safety with text bevor the first tool that you have to double check the first chip
Sorry for you ! At least you got it repaired very fast. The brochure and salesman speech is one thing, but once you've spent half a million what matters is service.
Sorry to hear about the spindle damage, especially in present situations. Thanks for sharing what can be go wrong sometime.. When hard earned savings goes in blink of an eye... not easy to digest. However be careful in future and good luck.
@Barvaria CNC Mahlzeit und erstmal danke für deine tollen Videos 🙂. Du scheinst ja eine Maschine mit Heidenhain Steuerung zu haben und könntest über Q- Parameter die Tiefe verstellen, um manuelle Korrekturen zu vermeiden (über FN 17 könntest du es machen). Jedes Teil tasten und verrechnen geht natürlich auch. Wünsche dir noch einen schönen Tag + ein frohes neues Jahr 😀
Runout is the word. Your English is a hell of a lot better than my german(?) or any other language for that matter. Great narration. Sorry about the big bill.
Use a safety drill as your 1st tool. Use this to verify heights on a new set up. It is better to break a cheap 1/8th inch drill that crash into work and damage tooling and machines. Your software can be made to double verify any large changes from the program using offsets. Things like double verify changes that are .05 or more in any offset in h values.
7:15 Gut das du nie den Humor verlierst. Hatte leider auch schon eine Kollision mit einer Hermle. Da wurden auch nur die Stauchhülsen getauscht. Leider hatte die Spindel von dem Crash einen lagerschaden erlitten und sie lief sich nach 1 Monat fest.
Du darfst da nie den Kopf in den Sand stecken denn passiert ist es in dem Moment eh schon. Am Schluss bin ich froh dass ich von Hermle einen guten Support erhalte und das ganze schnell wieder weiter geht
@@BavariaCNC wer nichts arbeitet, macht nichts Falsch. bin kein CNC bediener/programmierer jedoch mal so aus 3d druck sicht: In deinem Fall ist einzigst zu klären, gibt es eine "software" optimierung die das ständige händische eingeben umgeht, indem du sagst, layer 1, layer 2, layer 3 usw... und die software sich das merkt ok, ich habe gerade layer 1 bearbeitet, jetzt darf ich nicht layer 3 bearbeiten ohne das mir der bediener das durch was auch immer doppelt bestätigt. Die maschine kostet soviel scheiss Geld, und solche Fehler sind eigentlich am ende irgendwo tageswerk. Würde da mal bei hermle nachfragen. bei dem CUT ist mir auch aufgefallen, die mach sehr viel "leer" fahrten, gerade in der 2ten arbeitsebene am schluss springt sie von ganz links auf ganz rechts, macht dann den vorderen rechten durchstich, springt nach hinten, kommt durch und springt nach vorne links... aus meiner sicht könnte die wenn die von links nach rechts springt, bereits auf der rückseite die die durchstiche anfangen, dir rechte seite fertig machen und von vorne dann die beiden durchstiche... spart am ende keine ahnung x sekunden an zeit, bei 20stück ok... aber bei 1000 oder mehr hast du da bereits das nächste projekt in bearbeitung während das im jetzigen programm noch läuft
we have had some crashes with CNC where I work in the wood industry. My personal worst, was a combined 3 and 5 axis Biesse. Where the product (big hardwood plate) come loose, and smashed up in the 5 and 3 axis at the same time. The house technician couldn't fix it, the service company couldn't fix it either and they had to call in specialist from Italy to come up to fix the problem. (I work in Norway btw.), some was stupid expensive, since all parts and equipment had to be sendt up from Italy, before the specialist could come. If there is one machine I know can handle a crash, it's Heian machines (Japanese). They are build simple, with big components, instead off small components. One Heian machine we had, went accidently right down in the work table. all we needed to do was tight some bolts, and zero the machine out and she was ready.
I feel ya brother, I had a a crash the other day. I'm running mainly fanuc lathes and my machine needed a new bar to work on so I was gonna put the T0404 into the MDI to be able to put the new bar against Z0. What I didnt notice was that I had mistakenly written T0404 into my program. So when I started the program and ran first operation, facing, The revolver rotated into the chuck and there was a massive bang and sparks and stuff. I also had my forehead against the window to see properly and was quiet shocked. Luckely nothing too bad happend just a wrecked Carbide drill and a holder and I was able to resume work after just resetting the turret into position. But it feels so bad when this stuff happend. But if something can happend it will happend sooner or later. Keep up the good work bro!
Never nice to hear about a machine smash especially requiring a spindle change. I used one of these machines for a day or so and it is hands down the best designed machine ive used , especially once you realise how accessible the work table is . The word you are looking for is "concentricity" or spindle runout .
Ich drücke dir die Daumen das du zukünftig von solchen Zwischenfällen verschont bleibst. Bin übrigens durch deinen Besuch bei subi performance auf dich aufmerksam geworden. Viel Erfolg mit deiner Firma und deinem Kanal!
I've been watching your videos before but i haven't subscribed to your channel yet. Now i will click the button so we, your viewers can help you out with that spindle crash. I love your content so keep on making chips brother!!!, keep on pushing!👊💪👆
I think that CNC producerts should really develop more safety elements, like laser sensors which could detect size of product and lenght of tool and such things. There are some attempts sometimes, our older Morbidelli M400 had some lasers which (if it worked) were supposed to show you where to install suckers to not hit them with the tool, but we never actually found out how it works and newer machine doesn't have anything like that anymore. So sometimes there are some attempts, but it's not exactly what you need. What is pretty much standard on these machines is sensor in tool holder which can stop machine from unloading tool when holder is occupied by other tool (yeah, it's possible to screw it like that) which is really, like really, usefull feature. Problem is that it's only on revolver magazine and new machine has wide not spinning magazine with no senser again, sensor is only in one position, so you have to be careful when you send a tool to inside magazine. They really need to develop more sensors and bumbers, some collisions could be easily prevented by simple bumber should would stop the machine if something touches it, like 90% of our accidents could be solved by bumber on 5axis spindle, the most often collision is when you forget some material on beams and then you are going to mill fron side of material and spindle will sit on that material you forgot there and yes, it happens and the worst about that is that I am used to let it there from old 3axis CNC, everything is totaly different on each machine and you can easily do something stupid. In many of CNC crash videos, I see that machine is still working even when it already crashed, that's totaly crazy, our axis and spindle have some load sensors and when you hit something, it will stop, ofcourse it will not always prevent damag, but it will at least prevend machine from going even further and keep working after crash. I hate a lot of things on our Morbidelli machines, but when I see some videos with crahes, I realize that many things are much better on our machines, like you can't hit beams with spindle while milling front side of material because machine will not let you go more down with spindle. I would already destroyed if machine didn't care, ofcourse you can't forget some material there. 😀 But we work with wood, so it will survives, it will compress that wood and stop machine before fatal damage will happen, but yeah, Z axis will probably need to be redefined after that happens, sometimes even axis B which is axis which tilts the spindle.
So happy with my DIY machine... you still go through all the issues / operation issues but it doesn't cost so much. My milling table has 2 custom holes init (thanks to the opensource CAM software freecad which from one day to another day changed some settings and added additional g-code headers). For X/Y I set the motors to a relativ low power and the machine will go into Fault if that happens, of course I also did that I ran into a vise.
I bought a CNC to increase the output of work from my side business making short runs and prototypes in my garage. I had never run one before. Needless to say that I crashed the machine heavily many times in those early days, much worse than your little mishap there, until I learned to run the first time through very slowly with my finger on the E stop, a good practice that I thought everyone eventually came to use. That said. my #30,000 Taiwanese machine never skipped a beat and when I retired and sold it 15 years later it was still holding its original tolerances. The machine got better the later in the day it got and got better the older it got. While it was never a Hermle grade machine, it made me money and survived me beating the living snot out of it.
If you change a single number, always start at 1% rapid. Think of those knobs like pedals in your car. You don't start your car with the pedal to the floor.
@@BavariaCNC An even more safe method is to buy a probe and completely eliminate the human element. If the probing fails the machine won't start. Not even an expensive option when you weigh it against spindle repairs.
You can add one line for WCS Z increment at the end of your program, like (fanuc G54 ) #103=#5223, #103=#103-ΔZ, or something like this in Heidenhain control, perfectly avoiding possible manual input error.
Always check the offsets after changing them. Only 30 seconds of carefully bringing in the first tool to check if the z-height was properly set would have saved you all the time and money you wasted. People tend to take these high precision tools (that's what they are) too lightly, they are very capable of destroying themselves even with simple human errors. Respect the machine and never compromise on safety.
When I saw his setup I immediately tough doing it this way making multiple parts from the same stock does not make sense because the precautions and offset check double triple checks will take more time than is saved.
Oha... was hat der Spaß dann jetzt gekostet ca? Dank Subi Performance bin ich hier gelandet und wie er immer sagt: "Die CNC zahlt sich nicht von allein!" 😁
Depending on CAM software you could probably have the different levels of 3 parts modeled in and set toolpaths so once one level of 3 is done milling cnc pauses after the saw removes under the parts, remove parts by hand than click continue to start a surfacing and continue onto the level bellow. No opportunity for human error.
3:52 The word you're looking for is called "Run out". Spindle run out. That's how much out of concentricity the spindle is. Also bushing is pronounced like booshing (or like a bush, the small plant)
I ran a Hermle C62U-MT for about 18 months. Best machine I've ever run ... and probably will ever run. So much fun to run ... and you've got to love all that horsepower.
the machine has an 18k rpm spindle right? how can u have a lot hp with that rpms? I thought low rpm=high hp and hight rpm=low hp correct me if I‘m wrong pls :)
Whenever possible "dry run" at slow rapid and single block while watching your readouts. Good luck - we all have made those mistakes - some more than once.
I worked in aerospace as a Machine Tool maintenance technician and we had a bunch of Hermle Machines, I didn’t exactly work on them a whole lot but they’re really cool machines.
If I may, I'm a cnc machinist and in my experience, I've crashed my machine quite a lot. Not big crashes like that though where my tool holder also got hurt, mostly just crashing drills and 1 roughing insert cutter. Here's what I do to prevent this, you can prevent a crash from happening by having it rapid slow for the last 25mm(by that I do not mean stare at the screen, watch your cutter, and judge by eye the last 25mm or so). I think I saw a feed & rapid feed dial on your controls? Use them when you start every operation, waste 10 - 20 seconds at the start of each new program. Watch you distances carefully. I'm quite sure if you had gone slow in the start of that program you would have noticed it would want to crash.
You might try adding a G10 (programable data input) to shift the z down in the program without changing the original program. And with out shifting manually For example G91 G10 L2 P54 Z-24.5 G90 then at end of program use g10 to shift back up in z to original position.
Hi. I´m a machinist working on a 33t beast. 4000mm X, 1250mm Y and 1600mm Z... Heidenhain iTNC530... And of course 5 axis... I just can´t understand how to crash in Z... Honestly. I saw it on other machines, here on yt of course... And i´m doing prototypes btw, so i rarely have like even 5 identical parts to make, so chance for crashing is even higher i guess? I just do this ALWAYS on the first part since years: 1.) View into the workroom (bedmachine, so vice or piece could hit somewhere when table moves,, checking tool changer... 2.) Questioning myself once: Is the zero point according to the drawed plan? Unsure? No start and check with probe again... 3.) I write all programms mysellf directly on the machine, i wouldn´t trust anybody to write a programm for workpieces up to 6-8t and start it... It is just too dangerous and i told them this is the only way i´m gonna do this job - they accepted this, i´m like my own boss deciding everything, how i do it, what tools i use, just everything, i do not wan´t any unconcentrated rookie to mess up, just too dangerous... 4.) The Potentiometer is ALWAYS in my left hand, my right hand is on the inerrupting button, my left palm leans on the emergency stop 5.) If i´m unsure im turning the Poti to 0% (of course when i can, you cannot interupt f.e. when making a RA0,5 surface) 6.) I ALWAYS read the next few lines from my programm (i´m sure before i even put something on my machine Z is NEVER - something I make really huge parts up to a max of 11m long!! I´m working since years for them. Yes i´m good and have much experience but i also know if i mess up only once, it would cost me this good payed job of course and it could hurt or kill me... along with destroying extreme expensive workpieces with sometimes over 1 year delivery time, or even the machine itself... So i take my job as serious as if my life was on the line... And if you read carefully enough, IT DOES!!! EVERYDAY!!! IMHO there is no excuse for a crash then poor skills or lack of concentration. Lucky you didn´t get hurt tough man! And forgive me, i do like you as a person, this has nothing to do with you and i do not wan´t to hurt your feelings! But i think you need to be a special person with a certain kind of mindset and very good to extraorinary skills to be really on top in this game. I never crashed. I never failed. They call me Mr. Perfect for fun in my company, we laugh a lot. They love me. But i also know that their feelings would turn real sour if i ever had to explain a crash to them. The 26 yr old boy before me had no crash but ruined a huge part. Borehole was off like 0,015mm of for a huge rod to put in. Bye man... 10´s of K´s damage and he was gone. They try to find a guy for my job since 3 years, there was only one aspirant, he was way too scared... I sent him home before lunch of his first day because i had to unfortunately... Oh man, i should machine less and meet more persons lol, what a darn long comment Cheers mate and kind regards to Bavaria (the home of unfortunately no longer ZF transmission BMW)
Idk about other countries but here in Aut when we call the mazak service hotline we almost never have to wait. It was just 2 times they where busy but they called us back about 10mins later.
Is there a way to set a safety boundary for your work area? Like if you enter more than X value, throw an error. Would at least catch decimal errors, but probably not others.
@@BavariaCNC i always have the potentiometer at 0 when i start a program, when i see everything is good and the program already ran once then i just let it run.
i believe Makino has the ability to load your cad model into the program and then it will stop movement before it would collide with the part (not sure about stock though)
In the oldies then it was a different between a full-stop . and a comm , Is there a different using it in measurement of this two variables. One was a millimeter and the other was a 1/1000 of a millimeter.
Das ist ja wie bei den Kennzeichen... Für jeden zweiten Crash gibt's ein gelbes Kennzeichen. Bei Hermle sinds die schwarzen Spindeln ;) Aber schön, dass es hoffentlich bald wieder neue Videos gibt von dir ;)
ohh nooo! friction welding between tool holder and work piece is mostly not working as supposed :P was kostet ne neue Spindel mit Einbau und allem Drum & Dran wenn man fragen darf?
Es wurde "nur" der Spindelkopf getauscht nicht die ganze Spindel und den alten hab ich mit 50% Preisnachlass zurück geben können. mit allen waren das um die 11.000€
Hermle Machines are mostly well tought out, i work with a C400 and a C22U. if something happens the Hermle Service is really fast and the General Support you get is outstanding.
it hurts me to hear But it's good that you're already up to run again. I've heard and seen so many who have been out for the same I have built security into my programs to get around it I have almost only run machines with heidenheim for the last 24 years you should take advantage of the controller TNC 640 is a great controller many people don't use more than 20% of the capacity of the controller. make some safety modules (LBL) It can save you for some headaches hope you're not have more accidents from a fellow Machinist
Single block, feed knob to zero and pass through with cycle start, observe distance to go in parameters/position block on screen. Once satisfied turn off single block and feed 100%. Unless you are this brother ELIMINATING that aluminum! Impressive machine and machining. I work for Magna in a stamping facility repairing the tools. I bring my job shop mentality. All we have is a shit-ass SMS Trak Mill. I miss the technology I once worked with. But, I still get things done fast by embracing the high feed, low cut depth philosophy to not destroy the spindle motor. Get things done way quicker than everyone in the facility. I would love to show them what I can do with a REAL MILL! And yes, it's run-out.
Also it might just be my way of thinking but but if you're running such an expensive machine why are you manually making offsets to drop your coordinate system? just take the time to write the right program that bumps the wcs automatically so you avoid errors like this.
You quickly learn to never do any calculations in your head in this trade. I was top of my class in math in school but will use a calculator for simple additions/subtractions when entering offsets :)
Concentric, concentricity (how round something is) and run-out (how centered a tool is). I'm really late to comment :P but haven't seen someone mention it yet (maybe I haven't scrolled far enough).
Wieso hast du den Z Nullpunkt nicht über ein makro oder ein renishaw taster versetzt? Ein M00 war ja sowieso notwendig um die fertigen teile zu entnehmen
Wow, bad luck. I am sorry for you. This is a reminder for me (hobby machinist), that machines will do whatever we tell them. Thanks for sharing and good luck. I really enjoy your videos, only 5 mio more to go ;-) haha....
Been an application engineer for 27 years now what I’ve learned is all these machines go bang…it’s just part of the game….put it down to experience and move on till the next time..
I’ve seen people make bigger mistakes then the original because they can’t put it behind them and re focus… been able to say shit happens it was a mistake and move on 40 seconds later is just as important as any other aspect in machining….it’s when you makes the same mistakes multiple times the problem starts
Yesterday was bussy with same sort of product where i had to adjust Z ( 5-axis product). I was making 5 pieces from 1 blok aluminium , where i had to adjust Z 5xtimes. I have decided to spend 2 hours and making a good programm that already had those adjustments in it cause you never know.. When it gets busy and playing with work offset can be very very dangerous. Now you know it !
How much have they charged you ? We live in the Netherlands and i think that the price should be simmilar. We also think of buying a Hermle or Grob. Have not decided yet.
Das kann man sowohl in Haidenheim als auch in Siemens so programmieren das es automatischen mitgezählt wird in welcher Stufe man ist. Woher ich das weiß? Es hat "nur" 3 Spindelköpfe gebraucht bis es der Programmierer lernen wollte wie es geht. Daher passiert jedem mal aber man sollte daraus früher oder später lernen.
Hi, I saw video of your accident. I read in your videos that you use Solidcam. From what you say you crashed twice in one month! Don't you have simulation to avoid these accidents?
It's called run-out. And bushing is pronounced very close to how you would say the word using the German sound for 'u'. The chips are also called shavings.
I don't understand one thing. Why didn't technician check the runout of the crashed spindle before disassembling anything? He worked several hours at your cost, just to do the same thing again with new spindle. I wouldn't be happy with that. Runout and play is the first thing I would check even myself. I assume you have a mircon dial gauge in your shop. What about the Z- ballscrew spindle and nut? After such a violent crash I would check the play on the Z-axis drive system. Maybe those aluminium spacers did their work but it doesn't cost you much to check also the drive. I wish you never had any crash again it hurts even when watching! Cheers from Poland.
Thanks for sharing! Thinking about how to avoid this in the future: can you probe for the new offset, even though you know what it should be? It will likely be faster than manually setting the offset because you can just take off the old parts and hit cycle start with confidence, because probes won't fat-finger the offset. 🙂
I used to test my machine in midair but reality forces us to do what we must do. So what I did was to limit the rapid movement to a small percentage like 5% of its normal speed which I had already derated meaning to limit it to 80% of its speed it wish to run at because it causes much less wear and tear on the machine you save very little time in this extra 20%, but you gain almost half 50% extra lifespan on the machine time is saved in the cut not getting to the cut. I have heard of some new programming systems that prevent the machine from raising the spindle and forces it to better find its way to the next PATH without raising. Sorry that's not a good explanation but you might understand it better if I said to weave its way to the next start point again this gives you more machine lifetime personally I'm not sure that might scare the shit out of me it's as much as having the machine coming at the part at .5 meter a second or apx 20in a second or 1200fpm No one can push the button that fast at least that way you can proof apart and still make a part without disrupting your feeds and speeds there by messing up finishes and taking way too long in general considering what a crash cost versus lost production. Life is nothing but a game of trade-offs.
Sollten sich bei Hermle mal einige hersteller beim Service ne Scheibe abschneiden! Hermle steht beim Service über allen. Wir haben in unseren Betrieb einige Maschinenhersteller. Niemand ist ansatzweise so gut wie Hermle.
Ja und zwar ne ganz große! Ich hatte bisher wirklich nur super Erfahrungen mit Hermleservice. ich hab auch andere Maschinen da ist es deutlich "anderst"
ugh, i'd be sick, i've been luck having never had a bad crash let alone a z axis crash. i did have a small one today, took about 5x the cut i intended to in stepover. missed an x offset but the tool took it and i caught it within a half an inch. it was material getting removed anyway. i'm ultra paranoid about z axis mishaps so i single block the first cuts of a new offset watching dtg to check the z cut as well as doing the same when a new tool has been set to validate its height as correct as well. on production runs im often running a retract height of .050" and clearance of .100. and on single part jobs im basically double that. sometimes on production i'll rapid below the model top plane if im using a tool that has a really slow plunge feed just to shave a ton of time. im super high mix, literally 1 or 2 parts is my main work, so im moving offsets a dozen times a day or more.
du solltest nach dem Ändern des Offset (oder wie es heißt) vieleicht immer erstmal den Speed runterregeln und schauen ob alles passt. Die 1 min nach jedem Umspannen kostet weniger wie eine neue Spindel, oder vermutlich auch neue Dämpfer samt einbau.
Actually you said the word, this is "run-out", and for prevent this, always run your programs in dry mode, or testing mode, actually you can see in the console the path of the tool and if you see this Z -500mm going down, you can save thousand of dollars.
In a half-mil machine-tool our processes involves having both the programmer + engineer signing off the sim validation for the job. If the job/code isn't validated against real-machine kinematics (e.g. ISV) and ran in the machine blindly you can bet he/she be out of job the very same second - crash or not. Negligence is not cheap!
CNC golden rule: always turn the feeds and rapids to 5% after any modify
Words from a pro 👍
Also you can run the programm in simulation, to check if there are mistakes.
25 % are also okay or you chose singelblock (Einzelsatz)
@@JohnWick-qw6ec Simulation is simulating the process not the heighth of the tool or material, thats why you need to find them and enter manualy.
jup and don't program with decimal places if not needed
Shit happens when you work, especially in this enviroment. As we say in Italy: only the ones that do nothing all day never make mistakes.
The people say this not only in Italy
@@iljagris7017 ...but we are the only ones using this phrase with a huge unsaid "Dio porco!" deep in our heavy hearts.
Daniel, please, I need more Bavarian Diet stories. May your spindle roar safely and your endmills stay sharp! Farewell!
I agree 100% with you and I think the every machinist went through something like this during his/her career
I've never met anyone that's never made a mistake.
@@ilnullaaa hai vinto
The word you are looking for is run-out. Great content, thanks.
I was thinking centricity then realized that's not a word.
Run out or true works.
Concentricity, or alignment of spindle to true runout zero. 👍
@@idus concentricity or eccentricity (lack of concentricity). You were on the right path.
Thank you Nicholas!!
Thanks a lot for the all the great "dry" videos you made bro.
I contributed you 1 cent for this painful replacement.
Keep blowing chips.
So sad to see you had to change the spindle.
I will look this video 5 million times if that helps.
Don’t give up, you are a great machinist ☺️
thank you! im counting ;)
So.... how many times have you watched? I have seen already 430 times.
The best tip I gave myself in the years is work like someone (which is yourself haha) is trying to sabotage you
Every new programm or every additional change (like changing the Z height) run the complete programm with slow rapids and slow plunges
Yes you waste maby a couple of minutes, but destroying your machine or even just scrapping 1 part will cost you more
I agree...esspacially with feed rates of 30m/min..... I sometimes dont understand why certain movenments have to be 100 percent when time gain is low and damage can be high....
Your right with that, this was a tipical example for I did it now 100 times and it will be good for the next 100 times and ten .....
We also own a Hermle machine, - The C32. Words are not enough to describe the professionalism of the maintenance crew. We had a spindle seizure, the reason unknown. Everything was fixed extremely fast, even under very difficult COVID restrictions. Honestly, Hermle Technicians can be compared to Olympic athletes in their professionalism.
Yeah, we have italian morbidelli machines and those maintenance people (not italians, they are Czechs) can do real magic, we have several fires, one 5axis huge machine was totaly burned, like completely and they fixed it in 2 weeks. But on newer machine, everything is more complicated (like set something, modify axis or something, there is some online lock which prevents anyone from going to that settings, which is really a pain) and even maintenance people sometimes don't know what to do with that, but they will always find out and solve that at the end.
After 8 years and several accidents, I can fix a lot of things by myself and sometimes you can make repair faster when you know that maintenance people need to change some part which is deep in machine and it takes a lot of time to get it out, so I will start with dissasembling it before they arrive to make it faster then and then they will just install a new part. Ofcourse I can't do this with things like spindle with cables and pressure air tubes everywhere, they need to mark it carefully to return it where it was previously, but with some parts, you can start without them, especially things which you were dissesembling like milion times and you already know. It happens often that maintenance person don't know how to dissasamble that and he has to find out first and I have documentation of parts too in .pdf on my computer, so sometimes we are working on it together to find out, they are just people and each machine is different. When I started on CNC machines, I was always shocked when I asked something a maintenance person and he was like "How can I know that? Each machine is different and I see this machine for the first time." 🙂 But now I know, each machine is really different and they don't do only CNC machines, they do everything and some modern saws or plate calibration sanders can be complicated the same as CNC machine.
Ofcourse you can't do this with totaly new machine, but when you have old machine, it's mostly not a problem.
Very interesting video! Thanks for being so open about it.
It sucks that the crash was because of a tipping error.
It may work if you set the offset not manually but with your probe so let the probe move down in z with a long distance to go until it touches and set z0. Then after the first part start the program again. If the distance to go is big enough the probe should travel further down then the first z0 to get the new z0 position 50 mm down
There are tons of ways to it better then I did, I agree 100% probably I will make a video on how to do it better :)
Hahaha. Tipping.. error. Funny funny.
Please do, Bavaria cnc. I saw some other great suggestions in the comments, and I'm always interested in better ways to increase confidence in a program or process.
Personally I try to avoid doing anything manually like that if I can. With fanuc style controllers, you can adjust the work offset in the program with G4 L10 G91 P1 Z-25.4, or something like that. I can't recall perfectly what the code is, but that is my point: People are really good at coming up with clever ways to do things, but computers Excel at doing exactly what you tell it to do reliably. Automate everything!
Depending on CAM software you could probably have the different levels of 3 parts modeled in and set toolpaths so once one level of 3 is done milling cnc pauses after the saw removes under the parts, remove parts by hand than click continue to start a surfacing and continue onto the level bellow. Considering you just machined the surface to get to the bottom of parts there shouldn't be a need to probe since machine just machined with a tool that has been measured by a tool height sensor.
He messed up by having to type in a offset which opened up the possibility for human error if everything was all programmed in CAM this opportunity wouldn't have occurred.
Thanks for sharing the process, long live the spindle!
thank you! I hope it will be a looooong time for it.
As a programmer I have to say you must eliminate the human error , as far as possible. Changing offset manual multiple times in a production run is dangerous. So either automate the offset or code a small “M0” safety with text bevor the first tool that you have to double check the first chip
I crashed a spindle once and the boss told me "the only person that never broke anything is the person that never did anything".
Sorry for you ! At least you got it repaired very fast. The brochure and salesman speech is one thing, but once you've spent half a million what matters is service.
I agree! and from my history i can tell that the Hermle Service is still unbeatable
Sorry to hear about the spindle damage, especially in present situations. Thanks for sharing what can be go wrong sometime.. When hard earned savings goes in blink of an eye... not easy to digest. However be careful in future and good luck.
thank you! I hope this will be the last one for the next years :)))
@Barvaria CNC Mahlzeit und erstmal danke für deine tollen Videos 🙂. Du scheinst ja eine Maschine mit Heidenhain Steuerung zu haben und könntest über Q- Parameter die Tiefe verstellen, um manuelle Korrekturen zu vermeiden (über FN 17 könntest du es machen). Jedes Teil tasten und verrechnen geht natürlich auch. Wünsche dir noch einen schönen Tag + ein frohes neues Jahr 😀
Your toolpath looks absolutely excellent there's almost no lifting of the spindle I think this is ideal good luck with the machine gods in your pocket
Thank you very much!!!
I just started in a machine shop and I am terrified to make a mistake like that. Great video and I will definitely keep watching
Thank you! Now try not to miss any dots :)
Runout is the word. Your English is a hell of a lot better than my german(?) or any other language for that matter. Great narration. Sorry about the big bill.
Thank you!!! I will need to continue asking for words that are pretty specific but overall it works pretty good.
Use a safety drill as your 1st tool. Use this to verify heights on a new set up. It is better to break a cheap 1/8th inch drill that crash into work and damage tooling and machines. Your software can be made to double verify any large changes from the program using offsets. Things like double verify changes that are .05 or more in any offset in h values.
Interesting...so you just have a 1/8th drill go to z0 or like z0.01 just for sanity check?
7:15 Gut das du nie den Humor verlierst.
Hatte leider auch schon eine Kollision mit einer Hermle. Da wurden auch nur die Stauchhülsen getauscht. Leider hatte die Spindel von dem Crash einen lagerschaden erlitten und sie lief sich nach 1 Monat fest.
Du darfst da nie den Kopf in den Sand stecken denn passiert ist es in dem Moment eh schon. Am Schluss bin ich froh dass ich von Hermle einen guten Support erhalte und das ganze schnell wieder weiter geht
@@BavariaCNC wer nichts arbeitet, macht nichts Falsch.
bin kein CNC bediener/programmierer jedoch mal so aus 3d druck sicht:
In deinem Fall ist einzigst zu klären, gibt es eine "software" optimierung die das ständige händische eingeben umgeht, indem du sagst, layer 1, layer 2, layer 3 usw... und die software sich das merkt ok, ich habe gerade layer 1 bearbeitet, jetzt darf ich nicht layer 3 bearbeiten ohne das mir der bediener das durch was auch immer doppelt bestätigt.
Die maschine kostet soviel scheiss Geld, und solche Fehler sind eigentlich am ende irgendwo tageswerk. Würde da mal bei hermle nachfragen.
bei dem CUT ist mir auch aufgefallen, die mach sehr viel "leer" fahrten, gerade in der 2ten arbeitsebene am schluss springt sie von ganz links auf ganz rechts, macht dann den vorderen rechten durchstich, springt nach hinten, kommt durch und springt nach vorne links...
aus meiner sicht könnte die wenn die von links nach rechts springt, bereits auf der rückseite die die durchstiche anfangen, dir rechte seite fertig machen und von vorne dann die beiden durchstiche...
spart am ende keine ahnung x sekunden an zeit, bei 20stück ok... aber bei 1000 oder mehr hast du da bereits das nächste projekt in bearbeitung während das im jetzigen programm noch läuft
we have had some crashes with CNC where I work in the wood industry. My personal worst, was a combined 3 and 5 axis Biesse. Where the product (big hardwood plate) come loose, and smashed up in the 5 and 3 axis at the same time. The house technician couldn't fix it, the service company couldn't fix it either and they had to call in specialist from Italy to come up to fix the problem. (I work in Norway btw.), some was stupid expensive, since all parts and equipment had to be sendt up from Italy, before the specialist could come.
If there is one machine I know can handle a crash, it's Heian machines (Japanese). They are build simple, with big components, instead off small components. One Heian machine we had, went accidently right down in the work table. all we needed to do was tight some bolts, and zero the machine out and she was ready.
I feel ya brother, I had a a crash the other day. I'm running mainly fanuc lathes and my machine needed a new bar to work on so I was gonna put the T0404 into the MDI to be able to put the new bar against Z0. What I didnt notice was that I had mistakenly written T0404 into my program.
So when I started the program and ran first operation, facing, The revolver rotated into the chuck and there was a massive bang and sparks and stuff. I also had my forehead against the window to see properly and was quiet shocked. Luckely nothing too bad happend just a wrecked Carbide drill and a holder and I was able to resume work after just resetting the turret into position.
But it feels so bad when this stuff happend. But if something can happend it will happend sooner or later.
Keep up the good work bro!
ugh! glad it was repaired quite fast, would love to see the part/what actually broke... all the best, cheers!
the video of the part will come as next I think :)
@@BavariaCNC thanks! looking forward to it
Never nice to hear about a machine smash especially requiring a spindle change. I used one of these machines for a day or so and it is hands down the best designed machine ive used , especially once you realise how accessible the work table is .
The word you are looking for is "concentricity" or spindle runout .
Ich drücke dir die Daumen das du zukünftig von solchen Zwischenfällen verschont bleibst.
Bin übrigens durch deinen Besuch bei subi performance auf dich aufmerksam geworden. Viel Erfolg mit deiner Firma und deinem Kanal!
Vielen Dank! Mir reicht das jetzt auch wieder für ne ganze Weile an crashs ;)
Andi ist ein spitzen Typ war richtig super bei ihm!
I've been watching your videos before but i haven't subscribed to your channel yet. Now i will click the button so we, your viewers can help you out with that spindle crash. I love your content so keep on making chips brother!!!, keep on pushing!👊💪👆
I think that CNC producerts should really develop more safety elements, like laser sensors which could detect size of product and lenght of tool and such things. There are some attempts sometimes, our older Morbidelli M400 had some lasers which (if it worked) were supposed to show you where to install suckers to not hit them with the tool, but we never actually found out how it works and newer machine doesn't have anything like that anymore. So sometimes there are some attempts, but it's not exactly what you need. What is pretty much standard on these machines is sensor in tool holder which can stop machine from unloading tool when holder is occupied by other tool (yeah, it's possible to screw it like that) which is really, like really, usefull feature. Problem is that it's only on revolver magazine and new machine has wide not spinning magazine with no senser again, sensor is only in one position, so you have to be careful when you send a tool to inside magazine.
They really need to develop more sensors and bumbers, some collisions could be easily prevented by simple bumber should would stop the machine if something touches it, like 90% of our accidents could be solved by bumber on 5axis spindle, the most often collision is when you forget some material on beams and then you are going to mill fron side of material and spindle will sit on that material you forgot there and yes, it happens and the worst about that is that I am used to let it there from old 3axis CNC, everything is totaly different on each machine and you can easily do something stupid.
In many of CNC crash videos, I see that machine is still working even when it already crashed, that's totaly crazy, our axis and spindle have some load sensors and when you hit something, it will stop, ofcourse it will not always prevent damag, but it will at least prevend machine from going even further and keep working after crash. I hate a lot of things on our Morbidelli machines, but when I see some videos with crahes, I realize that many things are much better on our machines, like you can't hit beams with spindle while milling front side of material because machine will not let you go more down with spindle. I would already destroyed if machine didn't care, ofcourse you can't forget some material there. 😀 But we work with wood, so it will survives, it will compress that wood and stop machine before fatal damage will happen, but yeah, Z axis will probably need to be redefined after that happens, sometimes even axis B which is axis which tilts the spindle.
So happy with my DIY machine... you still go through all the issues / operation issues but it doesn't cost so much. My milling table has 2 custom holes init (thanks to the opensource CAM software freecad which from one day to another day changed some settings and added additional g-code headers).
For X/Y I set the motors to a relativ low power and the machine will go into Fault if that happens, of course I also did that I ran into a vise.
Great attitude not many people would admit they made a mistake and crashed their machine and then make a video about it. All the best from Down Under
Thank you!!! thats part of the process, You only can make mistakes when you work. And im sure it happend to a lot of people they just hide it :)
@@BavariaCNC you sure you needed a spindle? ? you sure this guy did his best?
I bought a CNC to increase the output of work from my side business making short runs and prototypes in my garage.
I had never run one before.
Needless to say that I crashed the machine heavily many times in those early days, much worse than your little mishap there, until I learned to run the first time through very slowly with my finger on the E stop, a good practice that I thought everyone eventually came to use.
That said. my #30,000 Taiwanese machine never skipped a beat and when I retired and sold it 15 years later it was still holding its original tolerances.
The machine got better the later in the day it got and got better the older it got.
While it was never a Hermle grade machine, it made me money and survived me beating the living snot out of it.
What's the manufacturer of that machine? I am just starting.
If you change a single number, always start at 1% rapid.
Think of those knobs like pedals in your car. You don't start your car with the pedal to the floor.
I have to say you are right, and right now i start much slower :))))
@@BavariaCNC An even more safe method is to buy a probe and completely eliminate the human element. If the probing fails the machine won't start. Not even an expensive option when you weigh it against spindle repairs.
Run out, or eccentricity are both good descriptions.
I really enjoy watching your videos! Please continue to make more and I'll keep watching!
thank you! I surely will ;)
You can add one line for WCS Z increment at the end of your program, like (fanuc G54 ) #103=#5223, #103=#103-ΔZ, or something like this in Heidenhain control, perfectly avoiding possible manual input error.
Always check the offsets after changing them. Only 30 seconds of carefully bringing in the first tool to check if the z-height was properly set would have saved you all the time and money you wasted. People tend to take these high precision tools (that's what they are) too lightly, they are very capable of destroying themselves even with simple human errors.
Respect the machine and never compromise on safety.
When I saw his setup I immediately tough doing it this way making multiple parts from the same stock does not make sense because the precautions and offset check double triple checks will take more time than is saved.
@@gearloose703 maybe the wrong mashine to do this job? there are a lot of scrap to make this things
Ah!!! The old Fat finger. The missing decimal gets me from time to time.
It' the worst :))))))
It's always those big Fanuc buttons and not being able to hear the beeps with all the noise and ear plugs in
Oha... was hat der Spaß dann jetzt gekostet ca?
Dank Subi Performance bin ich hier gelandet und wie er immer sagt: "Die CNC zahlt sich nicht von allein!" 😁
They say once you go black you never go back. Hopefully this one holds up. I'll support your spindle replacement program by liking and subscribing 😁
Depending on CAM software you could probably have the different levels of 3 parts modeled in and set toolpaths so once one level of 3 is done milling cnc pauses after the saw removes under the parts, remove parts by hand than click continue to start a surfacing and continue onto the level bellow. No opportunity for human error.
3:52 The word you're looking for is called "Run out". Spindle run out. That's how much out of concentricity the spindle is.
Also bushing is pronounced like booshing (or like a bush, the small plant)
I ran a Hermle C62U-MT for about 18 months. Best machine I've ever run ... and probably will ever run. So much fun to run ... and you've got to love all that horsepower.
the machine has an 18k rpm spindle right? how can u have a lot hp with that rpms? I thought low rpm=high hp and hight rpm=low hp
correct me if I‘m wrong pls :)
@@hejses1076 it used HSK100 holders. It has nearly 70hp at the 9000rpm spindle and 90+hp when turning.
I'm pretty sure the owner spent 1.45m on the machine. He even went to their plant in Germany to see the build process.
@@danafarmer2901 damn I used to work on a haas vf2ss and it has only 30hp with 12k rpm
Whenever possible "dry run" at slow rapid and single block while watching your readouts. Good luck - we all have made those mistakes - some more than once.
I worked in aerospace as a Machine Tool maintenance technician and we had a bunch of Hermle Machines, I didn’t exactly work on them a whole lot but they’re really cool machines.
Thank you for sharing your learning experiences! It's very helpful!
You are welcome :) !
That’s still sick machine. Loving it.
If I may, I'm a cnc machinist and in my experience, I've crashed my machine quite a lot. Not big crashes like that though where my tool holder also got hurt, mostly just crashing drills and 1 roughing insert cutter. Here's what I do to prevent this, you can prevent a crash from happening by having it rapid slow for the last 25mm(by that I do not mean stare at the screen, watch your cutter, and judge by eye the last 25mm or so). I think I saw a feed & rapid feed dial on your controls? Use them when you start every operation, waste 10 - 20 seconds at the start of each new program. Watch you distances carefully. I'm quite sure if you had gone slow in the start of that program you would have noticed it would want to crash.
You might try adding a G10 (programable data input) to shift the z down in the program without changing the original program. And with out shifting manually
For example
G91 G10 L2 P54 Z-24.5
G90
then at end of program use g10 to shift back up in z to original position.
Bad luck, man. But still this is a valuable expirience to be focused all the time.
I agree 100% this is like always a human error that could have been prevent easy
Hi. I´m a machinist working on a 33t beast. 4000mm X, 1250mm Y and 1600mm Z... Heidenhain iTNC530... And of course 5 axis... I just
can´t understand how to crash in Z... Honestly. I saw it on other machines, here on yt of course... And i´m doing prototypes btw, so i rarely have like even 5 identical parts to make, so chance for crashing is even higher i guess? I just do this ALWAYS on the first part since years:
1.) View into the workroom (bedmachine, so vice or piece could hit somewhere when table moves,, checking tool changer...
2.) Questioning myself once: Is the zero point according to the drawed plan? Unsure? No start and check with probe again...
3.) I write all programms mysellf directly on the machine, i wouldn´t trust anybody to write a programm for workpieces up to 6-8t and start
it... It is just too dangerous and i told them this is the only way i´m gonna do this job - they accepted this, i´m like my own boss deciding everything, how i do it, what tools i use, just everything, i do not wan´t any unconcentrated rookie to mess up, just too dangerous...
4.) The Potentiometer is ALWAYS in my left hand, my right hand is on the inerrupting button, my left palm leans on the emergency stop
5.) If i´m unsure im turning the Poti to 0% (of course when i can, you cannot interupt f.e. when making a RA0,5 surface)
6.) I ALWAYS read the next few lines from my programm (i´m sure before i even put something on my machine Z is NEVER - something
I make really huge parts up to a max of 11m long!! I´m working since years for them. Yes i´m good and have much experience but i also know if i mess up only once, it would cost me this good payed job of course and it could hurt or kill me... along with destroying extreme expensive workpieces with sometimes over 1 year delivery time, or even the machine itself...
So i take my job as serious as if my life was on the line... And if you read carefully enough, IT DOES!!! EVERYDAY!!! IMHO there is no excuse for a crash then poor skills or lack of concentration. Lucky you didn´t get hurt tough man! And forgive me, i do like you as a person, this has nothing to do with you and i do not wan´t to hurt your feelings! But i think you need to be a special person with a certain kind of mindset and very good to extraorinary skills to be really on top in this game. I never crashed. I never failed. They call me Mr. Perfect for fun in my company, we laugh a lot. They love me. But i also know that their feelings would turn real sour if i ever had to explain a crash to them. The 26 yr old boy before me had no crash but ruined a huge part. Borehole was off like 0,015mm of for a huge rod to put in. Bye man... 10´s of K´s damage and he was gone. They try to find a guy for my job since 3 years, there was only one aspirant, he was way too scared... I sent him home before lunch of his first day because i had to unfortunately... Oh man, i should machine less and meet more persons lol, what a darn long comment
Cheers mate and kind regards to Bavaria (the home of unfortunately no longer ZF transmission BMW)
I think "concentric" is the word you're looking for . I know I'm late but hope this helps!
Hermle has the best customer service I've ever seen! Mazak hasn't even responded since friday last week...
Yes they do a great job! I actually didnt look an other machines because of that when i bought it.
Idk about other countries but here in Aut when we call the mazak service hotline we almost never have to wait. It was just 2 times they where busy but they called us back about 10mins later.
Mazak in the states has incredible service. Can’t speak for outside
Hopefully your bad luck is over. Good luck new spindle.
Is there a way to set a safety boundary for your work area? Like if you enter more than X value, throw an error. Would at least catch decimal errors, but probably not others.
There are ways to reduce the risk. the best way is to not do itr manually :))
@@BavariaCNC i always have the potentiometer at 0 when i start a program, when i see everything is good and the program already ran once then i just let it run.
i believe Makino has the ability to load your cad model into the program and then it will stop movement before it would collide with the part (not sure about stock though)
Some machines eliminate that error: If you put in 222 instead of 22.2 it will take that input to mean 0.0222 Might be a parameter to fix that.
Yeah I think on many fanuc controls there is a parameter for that.
In the oldies then it was a different between a full-stop . and a comm ,
Is there a different using it in measurement of this two variables.
One was a millimeter and the other was a 1/1000 of a millimeter.
Das ist ja wie bei den Kennzeichen... Für jeden zweiten Crash gibt's ein gelbes Kennzeichen.
Bei Hermle sinds die schwarzen Spindeln ;)
Aber schön, dass es hoffentlich bald wieder neue Videos gibt von dir ;)
ohh nooo! friction welding between tool holder and work piece is mostly not working as supposed :P
was kostet ne neue Spindel mit Einbau und allem Drum & Dran wenn man fragen darf?
Es wurde "nur" der Spindelkopf getauscht nicht die ganze Spindel und den alten hab ich mit 50% Preisnachlass zurück geben können. mit allen waren das um die 11.000€
Use a probe , works every time for adjusting z datum doing exactly what you are doing
Hermle Machines are mostly well tought out, i work with a C400 and a C22U. if something happens the Hermle Service is really fast and the General Support you get is outstanding.
That's because they only have one model in different sizes. Partly because of this, it is a very well thought-out and easy to maintain machine.
not really just different size, they are a bit differently laid out.
it hurts me to hear But it's good that you're already up to run again.
I've heard and seen so many who have been out for the same
I have built security into my programs to get around it
I have almost only run machines with heidenheim for the last 24 years
you should take advantage of the controller TNC 640 is a great controller
many people don't use more than 20% of the capacity of the controller.
make some safety modules (LBL) It can save you for some headaches
hope you're not have more accidents from a fellow Machinist
Honesty is the only respectable quality the human race exists on. Well done.
I agree! Thank you!
That’s to bad but glad u got your machine back up and running soon.
Im happy it was done so quick!
Single block, feed knob to zero and pass through with cycle start, observe distance to go in parameters/position block on screen. Once satisfied turn off single block and feed 100%. Unless you are this brother ELIMINATING that aluminum! Impressive machine and machining.
I work for Magna in a stamping facility repairing the tools. I bring my job shop mentality. All we have is a shit-ass SMS Trak Mill. I miss the technology I once worked with. But, I still get things done fast by embracing the high feed, low cut depth philosophy to not destroy the spindle motor. Get things done way quicker than everyone in the facility. I would love to show them what I can do with a REAL MILL!
And yes, it's run-out.
Did I heard correctly? maximum tolerance of 18microns? Holy cow.
yes :) nice isn't it :))
Also it might just be my way of thinking but but if you're running such an expensive machine why are you manually making offsets to drop your coordinate system? just take the time to write the right program that bumps the wcs automatically so you avoid errors like this.
Crashing machines suck, but usually happen because of going too fast, meaning you are busy.
True words !! 👍
8 microns run-out at 300 mm (insane, and the new refurbished one had 4!) but had 2 tenth of a mm off, yea that is bad, very bad.
About 20-40k for a spindle? Guy at work crashed our DMG, spindle was nearly $80k
Mistakes equal more experience things happen brother, brother do you recommend a 2 hand hermle machine?
Regards
Amazing videos
I agree =) i would buy machines from the C series expect C1200 and C20 :)
@@BavariaCNC thanks for you taking your time answering.
Have amazing day
Those decimal points will get you eveytime. Got me on a brand new Hurco 42I a week after install.
I think most of us went through that :)
You quickly learn to never do any calculations in your head in this trade.
I was top of my class in math in school but will use a calculator for simple additions/subtractions when entering offsets :)
Wo bekomme ich die Tasse her? :)
Concentric, concentricity (how round something is) and run-out (how centered a tool is). I'm really late to comment :P but haven't seen someone mention it yet (maybe I haven't scrolled far enough).
Guten Abend from US! Sorry for your bad luck. :(
What do you get when you put a crashed Hermle spindle into a Haas?
A big improvement.
Sorry. :D
😂😂😂
Lol
the word youre looking for is either "runout" or "concentricity"
Mache aktuell eine Ausbildung zum Zerspanungsmechaniker, vor sonen Situationen habe ich echt Respekt, man ist in dem Moment super machtlos.
Wieso hast du den Z Nullpunkt nicht über ein makro oder ein renishaw taster versetzt? Ein M00 war ja sowieso notwendig um die fertigen teile zu entnehmen
Wow, bad luck. I am sorry for you. This is a reminder for me (hobby machinist), that machines will do whatever we tell them.
Thanks for sharing and good luck. I really enjoy your videos, only 5 mio more to go ;-) haha....
Been an application engineer for 27 years now what I’ve learned is all these machines go bang…it’s just part of the game….put it down to experience and move on till the next time..
I have Typ agree 100% ist is Part in the Game and probably Most of have eben at That Point
I’ve seen people make bigger mistakes then the original because they can’t put it behind them and re focus… been able to say shit happens it was a mistake and move on 40 seconds later is just as important as any other aspect in machining….it’s when you makes the same mistakes multiple times the problem starts
Yesterday was bussy with same sort of product where i had to adjust Z ( 5-axis product). I was making 5 pieces from 1 blok aluminium , where i had to adjust Z 5xtimes. I have decided to spend 2 hours and making a good programm that already had those adjustments in it cause you never know.. When it gets busy and playing with work offset can be very very dangerous.
Now you know it !
How much have they charged you ? We live in the Netherlands and i think that the price should be simmilar. We also think of buying a Hermle or Grob. Have not decided yet.
Crashing machines suck man I feel your pain
thanks man! 🙌🙌
Concentricity, how aligned two circles are to the same Centrepoint.
Das kann man sowohl in Haidenheim als auch in Siemens so programmieren das es automatischen mitgezählt wird in welcher Stufe man ist.
Woher ich das weiß? Es hat "nur" 3 Spindelköpfe gebraucht bis es der Programmierer lernen wollte wie es geht.
Daher passiert jedem mal aber man sollte daraus früher oder später lernen.
Hi, I saw video of your accident.
I read in your videos that you use Solidcam.
From what you say you crashed twice in one month!
Don't you have simulation to avoid these accidents?
It's called run-out. And bushing is pronounced very close to how you would say the word using the German sound for 'u'. The chips are also called shavings.
Great video. Good luck with new spindle. Anyways did't you try to insure the machine against operator mistake?
Thank you! It is but as always I hae to wait till they tell me if they cover or not.
Appreciate you sharing your mistakes.
Take care
you are welcome and now dont do the same stuff your own :)
Welches cam nutzt du? Wie bekommt man es hin die Maschine 2 mal zu crashen, bei solch einfachen teilen
I don't understand one thing. Why didn't technician check the runout of the crashed spindle before disassembling anything? He worked several hours at your cost, just to do the same thing again with new spindle. I wouldn't be happy with that. Runout and play is the first thing I would check even myself. I assume you have a mircon dial gauge in your shop.
What about the Z- ballscrew spindle and nut? After such a violent crash I would check the play on the Z-axis drive system. Maybe those aluminium spacers did their work but it doesn't cost you much to check also the drive.
I wish you never had any crash again it hurts even when watching! Cheers from Poland.
Because of the deformed bushings, there is no pretensioning on the bearings. You ‘ll get a faulty reading.
Servus, cooles Video. Kleiner Tipp: bushing spricht man "busching" aus mit U, nicht "basching"
Thanks for sharing! Thinking about how to avoid this in the future: can you probe for the new offset, even though you know what it should be? It will likely be faster than manually setting the offset because you can just take off the old parts and hit cycle start with confidence, because probes won't fat-finger the offset. 🙂
I program multiple ops off a know position on the fixture. No probing necessary once you get the first position
@@frp1276 I don't because I don't want to change spindles.
@@gearloose703 I'm not sure what you mean
I used to test my machine in midair but reality forces us to do what we must do.
So what I did was to limit the rapid movement to a small percentage like 5% of its normal speed which I had already derated meaning to limit it to 80% of its speed it wish to run at because it causes much less wear and tear on the machine you save very little time in this extra 20%, but you gain almost half 50% extra lifespan on the machine time is saved in the cut not getting to the cut.
I have heard of some new programming systems that prevent the machine from raising the spindle and forces it to better find its way to the next PATH without raising.
Sorry that's not a good explanation but you might understand it better if I said to weave its way to the next start point again this gives you more machine lifetime personally I'm not sure that might scare the shit out of me it's as much as having the machine coming at the part at .5 meter a second or apx 20in a second or 1200fpm
No one can push the button that fast at least that way you can proof apart and still make a part without disrupting your feeds and speeds there by messing up finishes and taking way too long in general considering what a crash cost versus lost production.
Life is nothing but a game of trade-offs.
i am curios how much is the new spindle in Bavarian Dinares ??
Sollten sich bei Hermle mal einige hersteller beim Service ne Scheibe abschneiden! Hermle steht beim Service über allen. Wir haben in unseren Betrieb einige Maschinenhersteller. Niemand ist ansatzweise so gut wie Hermle.
Ja und zwar ne ganz große! Ich hatte bisher wirklich nur super Erfahrungen mit Hermleservice. ich hab auch andere Maschinen da ist es deutlich "anderst"
ugh, i'd be sick, i've been luck having never had a bad crash let alone a z axis crash. i did have a small one today, took about 5x the cut i intended to in stepover. missed an x offset but the tool took it and i caught it within a half an inch. it was material getting removed anyway. i'm ultra paranoid about z axis mishaps so i single block the first cuts of a new offset watching dtg to check the z cut as well as doing the same when a new tool has been set to validate its height as correct as well. on production runs im often running a retract height of .050" and clearance of .100. and on single part jobs im basically double that. sometimes on production i'll rapid below the model top plane if im using a tool that has a really slow plunge feed just to shave a ton of time. im super high mix, literally 1 or 2 parts is my main work, so im moving offsets a dozen times a day or more.
du solltest nach dem Ändern des Offset (oder wie es heißt) vieleicht immer erstmal den Speed runterregeln und schauen ob alles passt. Die 1 min nach jedem Umspannen kostet weniger wie eine neue Spindel, oder vermutlich auch neue Dämpfer samt einbau.
the check is a concentricity check seeing the runout of the spindle, Concentric. @3:35
thank you!
Actually you said the word, this is "run-out", and for prevent this, always run your programs in dry mode, or testing mode, actually you can see in the console the path of the tool and if you see this Z -500mm going down, you can save thousand of dollars.
In a half-mil machine-tool our processes involves having both the programmer + engineer signing off the sim validation for the job. If the job/code isn't validated against real-machine kinematics (e.g. ISV) and ran in the machine blindly you can bet he/she be out of job the very same second - crash or not. Negligence is not cheap!
The offsetting and probing is automated, equally validated and signed-off. Nothing should be 'manually set or called' on a machine-tool like you have.
You can get a training at Hermle to learn how to repair the smaller damages your self. I can now fix crashed bushings by my self.