Important note, this video's perspective is primarily from a non-injured, healthy, and otherwise not-health dependent perspective. As in, you're not using these ergonomic keyboards for medically diagnosed issues. I originally intended to interview another member who uses these keyboards to address these health challenges, but ran past the date. If you are someone who has to use one of these keyboards for this reason, PLEASE leave a comment! It'd be an amazing insight into this perspective. On that note of interviewees, just so there's no confusion, Eve has used her layout creations - just not currently. Using heavily alted QWERTY has best suited her ergonomic and profession requirements. Just wanted to reiterate this as I misspoke in the video D:. And finally, as always, any questions at all just leave a comment and I'll try to answer! Thoughts, opinions, errors, and anything that I missed are of course also welcomed :D p.s. apologies for the scuffed audio, tried using lumafusion for the first time on this... I will not be using it again :(.
@@val0rance This message reads like you imply that people who use it due to medical issue is a whole other topic. Which in fact is not. Most of the injuries that gets you ergo keyboard prescription is due to prolonged(and or wrong) usage of standard keyboard.
Apologies if it was not clear, but the point of this note was to mention that this video does not take medical point of view as intensely. Not an implication that it is a seperate subject, just that it is not focused upon + it is an inherently subjectve topic that one opinion cannot speak for all.
@@val0rance the point, its the video focus on typing speed, when a +200wpm its not a real scenario for a daily typing, you can type at that speed for 10h every day, and its just type code with symbols etc, its just not the point of a ergo split keyboard, the focus its the ergo part, and the video miss that point.
Speedtyping is a different niche to what spawned ergo keyboards, they are not designed to give faster typing speed, they are designed for comfort and reducing strain when typing for long periods of time with potential long term health implications
This is certainly true, but some popular ergonomic keyboard manufacturers market their keyboards as having better "efficiency" or just straight up helping you type faster (see: OLKB, Dygma "Transitioning to Ortho..."). I have also seen this claim thrown around in a lot of older ergonomic keyboard reviews so I wanted to address this :)
@@val0rance OLKB's claim to efficiency is keeping all keys closer to home row. This would primarily impact modifier and function keys, which would not have a significant impact on typing tests. OLKB also puts much more emphasis on comfort rather than efficiency. Dygma mentions typing speed on only a couple pages, literally every other page on their site emphasizes comfort. One of those pages tells you to learn how to touch type, which would obviously improve typing speed in the long run. The other page tells you to use custom layers for special shortcuts, something that also would not have a significant impact on typing tests. The focus on typing speed seems to really miss the point of ergonomic keyboards, which is ergonomics, not typing speed. Typing tests would not be affected by things like comfortable thumb clusters, comfortable spacing between arms, angling the wrists correctly via tenting, etc. And no, you don't need to be injured or unhealthy to appreciate a more comfortable keyboard. A comfortable keyboard would prevent injury from happening in the first place, that's literally their purpose.
Kinesis has been making contoured mono-split mechanical keyboards for more than 20 years. They released the Advantage 360 before the Glove 80 made it to market. The Kinesis Advantage was the inspiration for the original Dactyl, prior to the “Manuform” variety.
And the Kinesis Advantage was itself inspired by the Maltron keyboard. FWIW: My favorite is the Charybdis, followed by the Kinesis Advantage 360 non-Pro, followed by the Glove80. My first ergo keyboard was a Kinesis Advantage 1 in 2007.
I picked up a Kinesis last year because I was starting to get some wrist pain from my work. From my experience, I would put about 85% of the pain relief comes from the split layout allowing for custom tenting/angling/separation, that last 15% I would put on the key well and col-stag because I don't need to move my fingers as far.
A friend of mine cured his RSI-like issues by going from an ErgoDox to a Kinesis advantage 2 (later 360). Personally I don't have such issues, but I prefer sculpted boards for comfort. Have been using various ones since 2007, and a bit later (in 2008 I think) switched to the Colemak layout, further improving comfort.
40% Ortho is my first qmk keeb, but soon i realized i couldn't use all the keys and it helped me transition to a pseudo-split 36-key layout. Two years later, I switched to the Ferris sweep, and it helped me get into a better body position. Also, the Magsafe clamp setup, like Ben Vallack's, is the key to release forearm pain. pd: English is not my first language, so i hope i can explain well.
Very nice and informative video! I would recommend recording more down, the angle of the camrea means there is a lot of blur towards the end of the frame. Maybe you can close the aperture a bit too? Idk, maybe you are going for the macro/fuzzy look
I had my elbow chopped and screwed a few years ago after a serious break. I can type on a standard keyboard, but not for as long, and my body will hate me the next day. separating the hands, so my wrists are straight and not pronated or supinated much is pretty important to me. I started my split keyboard journey with a UHK, which is really just a standard keyboard with a way to split it in two. Then I tried a moonlander from Zsa, then a defy from Dogma. I think the Moonlander is best for me, it's got a little bit of tenting, it's got a nice column stagger. I lost some feeling in my pinkie on my left hand and its thumb cluster allows me to move some work from pinkie to thumb, which to me makes sense and works out. Speedwise, I'm about the same on all my boards. But in terms of what I can use day in and day out, the moonlander is a great solution for me. I think you're right about column stagger. It just makes sense.
I love my Iris, I don't have the best posture at my desk when I'm just goofing off. Being able to move the halves around to keep my wrists straight even while not sitting properly is fantastic.
handsoldering keyboards is really not that hard anymore. it just takes some time and patience. the amount of ressources available online are just crazy. i handwired an ergo 40% on cardboard a couple of months ago without any prior experience and it went rather smoothly somehow. i can really recommend it! also learned a lot in the process!
For anyone that sees this and wants to handwire their own board too, check out Jan Lunge and Joe Scotto. Joe has a really great tutorial on the hand wiring bit, and Jan made his own program named "POG" that can help you automatically map/flash your keyboard with customizable keybinds/layers/etc. Definitely some trial and error still, but very accessible.
This all lines up pretty well with my experiences, though I haven't tried any well ones. As literally everyone else, started on a standard keyboard that everyone thinks of when they think keyboard, then I bought a planck and that really opened a whole new world for me. I still have extremely mixed feelings on ortholinear layouts, but I also found a lot of fun benefits with the tiny footprint and basically forcing me to rethink how I use a keyboard in the first place. So while I don't think I'd ever really recommend an ortholinear to anyone, if nothing else, it is what set me on my journey. Now I use a custom built Corne and I honestly love it. I have some frankly pretty minor nitpicks with it so I've been looking at the ZSA Voyager to replace it. That one would give me a dedicated number row back, and I only actually end up using 2 thumb keys so the removal of one isn't even a consideration, and all that while retaining everything that I enjoy this Corne for. Hopefully it's as good as I'm hoping it'll be lol
I made myself a custom col staggered keyboard with measurements from my fingers and good god is it comfortable to never worry about hitting the wrong key. On my normal qwerty non ergo i learned to contort my fingers in weird ways to hit the keys upper or lower of home, and i have been actively unlearning that. You move your fingers up, down or for the outers left or right and it just works. Like, no weird looking/feeling whether you are actually hitting your key or if you are above/below the mark because your finger is curled slightly differently than normal. You reach for a key, and it's there. Also i made a huge thumbfan to take almost all modifier keys away from the fingers, so my hand basically never moves, my fingers are always centred on home and i can just relax my hands because i took my unique hand as a mold to rotate the columns. It just lies as if on a table, and the fingers don't have to move left or right for the other keys because the rows are aligned with them. Heavenly. I am still experimenting with the layout and thumbfan though, but the letters are already really good. After making this (considering the effort, time and skill necessary) i was wondering if people would pay for a uniquely made keyboard, but since I haven't used any other ergo keebs, i was thinking that the benefits would probably outweigh the costs to completely customise it. Also it is 100% 3d printed, so the build quality is maybe a bit cheap, and the sound would probably not be enough for "thock" aficionados, i would guess a cnc machine would probably help with that though. Hardly worth investing in one for a keyboard though. I was working on a new version with hotswap capabilities but currently it is hard soldered, probably need a better 3d printer for that too. As before, hardly worth spending 500-600$ at the cheapest to build a single keyboard.
This is more of an ergo speed typing analysis than just an ergo analysis. Found many points I never heard of before that make a lot of sense with speed typing. The only correction I would make is that your wrist does not need to align with the direction of the keys. Your fingers have no problem adjusting where to press above and below. And case in point, you can't just adjust your wrist angle to adapt to ortho. Your fingers need to learn the adjustment, after which your wrists are free to be where they were (in an optimal position). But yes, if you insist you need to type c with your index, ortho will disagree with you, but fixing that is actually not that hard compared to other adjustments. The greatest benefit for a tented split has nothing to do with the layout, but with your posture and wrist strain. Ergo, if you're being serious about ergo, begins with your chair and desk and posture, all optimized for your elbows and wrists with relation to the desk. Split means wider shoulders, and tented means less twisted wrists. But even then, the greater issue is with twisting and stretching during typing, more than the stationary angle. There really are only two ways to fix this, and that is either with hovering hands, or with added layers that bring all your keys within 1u distance, so that your wrists can remain stationary.
Ah, I should've better clarified in the video; Your fingers can get used to improper alignment, definitely true, but the main point on ortho is the corner keys/lateral stretches. For example, pressing B and E together when the matrix is aligned with your fingers feels easier than when it is, say, angled like when your hands are placed on ortho. You can see how the angle of splaying between your finger increases as you unalign the keyboard more - due to the fingers "moving" in different directions. On a staggered keyboard, if you do the angle mod, every key is actually comparatively closer (with exception to Y since the top row is not modified). Basically, B + E becomes V + E. At least for my hand size, that is easier than it would be on ortho - thus rendering it rather ineffective. The c part, by the way, I was referring to as an unconscious thing people often do as that feels more comfortable - not necessarily that it is the correct way. According to "strict" fingering, middle is actually the "proper" way to do it - although funny enough I'm not sure if that's actually better. The rest is true yup! Main point was that I personally believe ortho is a flawed design (again, when it is not split). I always like to remind people that you shouldn't have to adapt to your keyboard - rather, it should adapt to you.
@@val0rance Thank you for your thorough response and your thought provoking video. Your video is the first time I even heard of alt as in alt fingering... And once I figured that out it made a lot more sense. Also why people could type so fast on qwerty lol You also didn't mention thumb usage optimization which is one of the main selling points on the ergo/comfort side of things, but understandably has absolutely nothing to do with speed =)
I do not agree that layers are more ergonomic. I use the number row and are a tad faster than having those on a layer, but need to move the hand a bit more for that of course. It is a matter of preference and also related if you just type a few numbers or many in a row, where I agree an extra layer is then beneficial. You can use both btw. No need to just use one option.
@@nickgoogle4525 There is nothing more ergonomic than having numbers on your home row. For the most part, if you don't experience pain or discomfort, you can always go with what you like best. It's when things start hurting that they get serious, and begin to constrain your options. With that said, do not shy away from layers. A 40% with 3 layers is a 120% keyboard, and all keys can be at 1u distance. I'm typing on a 60 atm, but use my 40 layers just because they are so efficient.
Built my own Dactyl Manuform a few years ago after using an Ergodox for years before that. Biggest upside to a keywell style to me is actually the angle of the thumb cluster. This is all for comfort, not speed. I'm never been a crazy fast typer but I'm ok at 100WPM on QWERTY. I've considered moving away from QWERTY but as a PC gamer it makes things WAY more complicated.
I'm loving my switch to a ZSA Moonlander - switching to colemak forced me to lean to touch type finally, and it straddles the keywell-colstag gap with the angle adjustable thumbcluster. I don't think I'll ever move to a true keywell board, barring health issues, because of the massive portability loss. colstag boards especially have gotten smaller and smaller, and I'm planning on building a choc board (probably a Totem) in the near future for this reason
I’ve been using split keyboards in my work as a software developer for over a decade. I do not care about speed, at all. I would rather type more comfortably and slower than aggregate RSI pain for speed. Split ergo keyboards are optimized for this comfort, not for speed.
I've been on the fence on getting an Alice keyboard for the last couple of months.... this just solidified my decision and I'm getting one now :D any recommendations for a case?
Appreciate the video: history and interviews. One thing: the synthetic voice distracted me. Maybe just pitch it next time rather than reverb/or whatever processing was on it.
Nice video! Surprised they go for colstag instead of dactyls. TBK mini saved me from injuries after trying sofle/corne. Dactyls are definitely the best in terms of comfort.
I been using a standard tkl/75%/60% for a while and never had improper wrist bending issues. I use proper touch typing techniques on a QWERTY layout and top 150wpm on a 30 sec typing test. I find it's fastest to type on tactile mechanical switches with a hard mounting system. Just sharing my experience. I guess not everyone can be comfortable with such a setup though.
I have the Reviung 41. It whas a long period of adaptation, but it's much more confortable than any other keyboard that I test. The only con that I can think it's that do not have the number line up. The next keyboard that I want to buy is the Lily58, split, numbers and full compatibility with VIA/QMK
I think the trouble with this is that you'd need a lifelong study of keyboard use, where a substantial number of people used ergonpmic split boards for the majority of that time, to have any chance of truly determing whether it matters. In the meantime, I just find it more comfortable.
"Kara"-corder, as in Character Recorder. Also the bottom row of keys on that tiny Monstrosity/Abomination/RSI Induction Device masquerading as a keyboard make Us want to take a hammer to it.
Both. Both are good :P - I quite like tactiles for every day usage, but linears for speedtyping. If I had to pick one, tactiles are more fun - assuming you're not coming from membrane.
Some other languages have custom layouts designed for them :D, search around you may find some (German has a few, Chinese lots, Japanese too, etc.) There are also quite a few designed ones (French I know of a few) that just aren't published so most people don't know about them.
You didn't speak about hand size at all. Not about yours, nor about your interview subjects ones. A lot of things you talking about, like scissoring, using different fingers, using several fingers for one keyc e.t.c. is HUGELY dependent on hand size. Like for example the reason your version Dactyl has only 3 button rows, or even 40% in general existence is likely due to it's developer all having small hands. Also didn't hear you mentioning that there is an option to generate 3d print model of dactyl for you hand size and also change the amount of buttons & rows based on you finger length. Btw the stagger on split keyboards is also based on a hand sizes, especially the pinky one. This is literary the reason why you felt your pinky finger stagger wasn't enough. The scope of your typing analysis still rather limited. Like The idea that typing fast is somehow good for you health or ergonomic is rather questionable. It may feel right at surface. Typing faster means you type less, hence less chance of RSI, but if you type with errors and you often need to backspace then you ride a much higher risk than someone who types slowly but with less errors. Or, you know. someone who DOENS"T PRESS BACKSPACE in the top right corner at all. Like most people who's like myself use multiple layered layouts. This is a huge part of this split layered or less that 40% layout after all. Also monkeytype is good and all. But you should really include some whole text with punctuation ad coding benchmarks. Monkeytype is very synthetik benchmark aimed at measuring short bursts of typing speed which doesn't represent real world typing experience like coding or writing. In the first place i don't think people with only monkeytype high scores can be called experts on ergonomics or typing. After all some of the fastest typist use stuff like notebook keyboard, and they are often also very young, like some of your interviews subjects. All the stuff like RSI is still in their future. Of course they are fast, healthy and doesn't experience problem with qwerty when they are this young and in the zone. It would've been better to interview some experienced coders and or writers, after their physiological prime years. The money part. Microsoft natural ergonomics costs like 40-60$. The most expensive surface version sits at something like 150$+, the same with logitech one. The basic mass produce keyboard is simply the best option for introduction into ergonomic keyboard space cost wise. Also second hand options is always available for a mechanical one, since you can easily replace switches (hotswap) & keycaps and have yourself almost a new keyboard.
1) Good point on hand size, it’s my fault for leaving that out. 2) Yes, I’m aware of 3D printed customized dactyls, but it has very little to do with the claims presented in the video (i.e., “not necessary” compared to colstag + tenting, at least imo). 3) I should have probably clarified that this was for my keyboard specifically, but if you take a look at, for example, the piantor, has a much more aggressive pinky stagger. It’s more of a poke at popular colstags trying to optimize more for crowd compatibility over that of ergonomics. 4) I never stated once in the video that typing fast is better for your health. The claim was speed (which for many [for some reason] is the reason they adopt ergo. I suspect this is because of the claims commonly marketed with ergo keyboards being “more efficient for typing (see: OLKB)) isn’t dependent on using an ergo keyboard, and health can be better optimized by using alt layouts. 5) That was the claim in the video… you don’t have to press certain keys in so and so way. The backspace example was to initiate that idea (many people on ergo for example use thumb keys for backspace or caps lock, and also the whole thing with alt layouts). 6) The idea of coding benchmarks is a good one, but that leans more into keyboard size and layers. Many people use a separate layer specifically designed for coding, and this all dives more into software than that of hardware (again reiterating the point of software > hardware being more significant). Maybe I could’ve emphasized the utility of thumb keys, true. I should also clarify that my opinions on each of these keyboards were not formed over monkeytype alone (it was just in the video as an example). I used each of these keyboards for multiple months and for multiple purposes. 7) About the money, I’m not sure where you are getting your information on microsoft and logitech keyboards. The only one I can currently find is the logitech wave (and ergo for around $100). I’m not sure if you are relying on past information, but microsoft has stopped manufacturing their ergonomic keyboards for a while now - most remaining being price jacked insanely. Also, yes true.
@@trashviewer3521 for context, I am the first interviewee in the video and a programmer myself; accuracy is one of my personal focuses in typing (because frankly it's just more enjoyable to be accurate, that's all). While it is true that being fast at monkeytype doesn't necessarily mean you're good at typing correctly ergonomics-wise, there's a limit to how many things you can be doing wrong while still being fast. Also alt layout typists generally tend to not be the kind that just spam monkeytype runs, that's mostly a QWERTY user thing, since they usually care about the speed more than proper ergo. These two groups are quite different despite usually using the same website as a benchmark, and will have different average accuracies and alt layout typists will most likely not be using backspace in the top but have it bound somewhere better (I personally have Ctrl-Backspace bound to my Caps Lock key).
@@val0rance >4) I never stated once in the video that typing fast is better for your health. >I suspect this is because of the claims commonly marketed with ergo keyboards being “more efficient for typing (see: OLKB)) >OLKB Oh god, no. Not this PLANK preachers. If guys like them will be left to form the public opinion around ergo keyboard, we will still be typing on a typewriters for next 200 years. Well my info may be a little bit out of date, but most of the marketing around ergonomic keyboard i was subjected to, was about them being better for you health, more comfortable, and sometimes allowing you to type longer and \or faster as a consequence. The keyword was always "efficiencty and health benefits" not the speed. The split and 7) About the money, I’m not sure where you are getting your information on microsoft and logitech keyboards. Yeah, it seems my info a tad bit out of date. Though some googling point to the article named >Microsoft partners with Incase to bring back its recently discontinued keyboards and mice which states that the discontinued peripherals can be relaunched in the future. >The only one I can currently find is the logitech wave (and ergo for around $100) Even though the currently available logitech ergo one is still a pretty good starting point, since it provides both a little bit of tilt & split. Also scissor switches.
Do you mean Brazilian Bucks, right? I built one for around R$684 / US$120 including shipping and taxes, it's doable. It could be even cheaper if I went for cheaper switches and keycaps.
@@Pepo.. A DIY low profile corne with kailh choc switches, here's the breakup of what I paid: R$279 PCB + plates + screens R$185 keycaps R$181 switches R$21 TRRS cable R$18 pro micro style atmega 32u4 mcus Initially I was using keycaps I designed and 3D printed at home, but I wasn't too happy with them and ended up replacing with mass produced ones. Got the PCB, plates and screens from 42keebs and everything else from aliexpress. I'm rounding up the cents here, but in the end it was ~ R$684 with shipping and taxes included. If you're building with friends you may pool your resources and save a bit if you're using similar parts. For example, I only needed 42 switches, but I would pay more getting sets of 10 or 30 than on a set of 70 switches, so I ended up with 28 extra ones. I may end up using a few of them on a hitbox style controller later.
I'm on first minute and I already see the problem with how you are not testing any mass produced ergonomic keyboards, like microsoft natural ergonomics or logitech ergo, and instead opting for their inferior counterfeit of Arisu/Alice. The difference is microsoft and logitech have somewhat sculpted keywells, when Arisu/Alice ones are just flat. Arisu/Alice is kind of like Plank. Some sort of half measure form factor that doesn't provide anything of value to anyone in anything, but require huge time investment to figure it out, that can't be converted into anything useful afterwards.
There’s studies going back to at least the 80s on a few of the features (tenting and splitting the hands seem to help with some issues) But no standards or certainly blind testing on some other claims HR departments might not pay for rgb lights, but they’ve been kicking in for Kinesis keyboards for decades on physical therapist’s advice So yeah it’s the Wild West, and that can be annoying, but if you can’t type because your arms feel like they’re on fire, it’s nice to know that tenting your keyboard 20-30° has had research backing it for a while (Not that old studies are as good as lots of ongoing research between now and then. Just not a lot of money to back them I suppose)
I thought the same when I was 20, with +35, and after too many hours of programming, the split keebs help me with having better body posture, open chest, no pressure on forearms, no ulnar deviation, etc. At the end of the week I appreciate every little detail.
@@newdev76 I'm 34 but not a programmer, just a regular guy. Maybe splits are good for you but inconvenient for me. I don't type enough to the point where it harms my hands.
Ultimately, alike how there are so many factors affecting a keyboard's sound, there are also a heck ton of factors affecting a keyboard's ergonomics, and the size is certainly one of them. Having a 60% mechanical keyboard can widely be considered as more ergonomic in comparison to a full sized rubber dome one from what I've seen, and at that rate it's more so coming down to what exactly is "enough" for the user and what they are paying for it. It makes sense how your current one works for you, primarily because it's already straying towards the ergonomic side then, and there wouldn't really be much of a reason to spend an extra hundred or two on a split one just for a modular upgrade of sorts. Makes more sense if you didn't have the 40% nonsplit, but obviously it's capable enough. In terms of pricing, I've found 60% keyboards to be much cheaper in comparison to 40% ones, obviously because the latter isn't that mass produced in comparison and at that rate you'd best be paying a bit more for split columnar options with the same form factor, but those are only the circumstances I would see now and not three years ago of course. Split options probably didn't always use to be readily available in the extent that they are nowadays, beforehand there were only really commercial options offered by Kinesis and so for example which nowadays, considering the feature sets of their offerings, would be considered a bit overpriced actually, but that's besides the point...
@@alpacamale2909 The problem for programmers with regular keebs, is not the speed, +200 wpm is not a sustainable speed for longer sessions, the problem is the shift+number for symbols, ctrl+letter for shortcuts, the navigation cluster, etc., in a split with thumb cluster and layers, those problems are less awkward movements and a more relaxing way to type.
I alt whenever I remember to 🤣 - colstag I usually don't but I started a bit on rowstag ever since I found out I could get SFSs down to ~0.5% - 2% depending on how many I implement for Eng-200.
Important note, this video's perspective is primarily from a non-injured, healthy, and otherwise not-health dependent perspective. As in, you're not using these ergonomic keyboards for medically diagnosed issues.
I originally intended to interview another member who uses these keyboards to address these health challenges, but ran past the date.
If you are someone who has to use one of these keyboards for this reason, PLEASE leave a comment! It'd be an amazing insight into this perspective.
On that note of interviewees, just so there's no confusion, Eve has used her layout creations - just not currently. Using heavily alted QWERTY has best suited her ergonomic and profession requirements. Just wanted to reiterate this as I misspoke in the video D:.
And finally, as always, any questions at all just leave a comment and I'll try to answer! Thoughts, opinions, errors, and anything that I missed are of course also welcomed :D
p.s. apologies for the scuffed audio, tried using lumafusion for the first time on this... I will not be using it again :(.
I don't think having two separate hands with opposing thumbs count as an injury, it's more like a norm.
@@trashviewer3521 Pardon?
@@val0rance This message reads like you imply that people who use it due to medical issue is a whole other topic. Which in fact is not. Most of the injuries that gets you ergo keyboard prescription is due to prolonged(and or wrong) usage of standard keyboard.
Apologies if it was not clear, but the point of this note was to mention that this video does not take medical point of view as intensely. Not an implication that it is a seperate subject, just that it is not focused upon + it is an inherently subjectve topic that one opinion cannot speak for all.
@@val0rance the point, its the video focus on typing speed, when a +200wpm its not a real scenario for a daily typing, you can type at that speed for 10h every day, and its just type code with symbols etc, its just not the point of a ergo split keyboard, the focus its the ergo part, and the video miss that point.
Speedtyping is a different niche to what spawned ergo keyboards, they are not designed to give faster typing speed, they are designed for comfort and reducing strain when typing for long periods of time with potential long term health implications
This is certainly true, but some popular ergonomic keyboard manufacturers market their keyboards as having better "efficiency" or just straight up helping you type faster (see: OLKB, Dygma "Transitioning to Ortho...").
I have also seen this claim thrown around in a lot of older ergonomic keyboard reviews so I wanted to address this :)
Yes. You really don't need to type very fast as a programmer but if you get bad enough RSI it can be disastrous.
@@val0rance OLKB's claim to efficiency is keeping all keys closer to home row. This would primarily impact modifier and function keys, which would not have a significant impact on typing tests. OLKB also puts much more emphasis on comfort rather than efficiency.
Dygma mentions typing speed on only a couple pages, literally every other page on their site emphasizes comfort. One of those pages tells you to learn how to touch type, which would obviously improve typing speed in the long run. The other page tells you to use custom layers for special shortcuts, something that also would not have a significant impact on typing tests.
The focus on typing speed seems to really miss the point of ergonomic keyboards, which is ergonomics, not typing speed. Typing tests would not be affected by things like comfortable thumb clusters, comfortable spacing between arms, angling the wrists correctly via tenting, etc.
And no, you don't need to be injured or unhealthy to appreciate a more comfortable keyboard. A comfortable keyboard would prevent injury from happening in the first place, that's literally their purpose.
Kinesis has been making contoured mono-split mechanical keyboards for more than 20 years. They released the Advantage 360 before the Glove 80 made it to market. The Kinesis Advantage was the inspiration for the original Dactyl, prior to the “Manuform” variety.
Ooh! Yikes, I can't believe I totally forgot about that one; Yes absolutely!
And the Kinesis Advantage was itself inspired by the Maltron keyboard.
FWIW: My favorite is the Charybdis, followed by the Kinesis Advantage 360 non-Pro, followed by the Glove80. My first ergo keyboard was a Kinesis Advantage 1 in 2007.
I picked up a Kinesis last year because I was starting to get some wrist pain from my work. From my experience, I would put about 85% of the pain relief comes from the split layout allowing for custom tenting/angling/separation, that last 15% I would put on the key well and col-stag because I don't need to move my fingers as far.
A friend of mine cured his RSI-like issues by going from an ErgoDox to a Kinesis advantage 2 (later 360).
Personally I don't have such issues, but I prefer sculpted boards for comfort. Have been using various ones since 2007, and a bit later (in 2008 I think) switched to the Colemak layout, further improving comfort.
Nice video, I’ve waited for this one!
40% Ortho is my first qmk keeb, but soon i realized i couldn't use all the keys and it helped me transition to a pseudo-split 36-key layout. Two years later, I switched to the Ferris sweep, and it helped me get into a better body position. Also, the Magsafe clamp setup, like Ben Vallack's, is the key to release forearm pain.
pd: English is not my first language, so i hope i can explain well.
this is a really well made video..
Very nice and informative video! I would recommend recording more down, the angle of the camrea means there is a lot of blur towards the end of the frame. Maybe you can close the aperture a bit too? Idk, maybe you are going for the macro/fuzzy look
I had my elbow chopped and screwed a few years ago after a serious break. I can type on a standard keyboard, but not for as long, and my body will hate me the next day. separating the hands, so my wrists are straight and not pronated or supinated much is pretty important to me. I started my split keyboard journey with a UHK, which is really just a standard keyboard with a way to split it in two. Then I tried a moonlander from Zsa, then a defy from Dogma. I think the Moonlander is best for me, it's got a little bit of tenting, it's got a nice column stagger. I lost some feeling in my pinkie on my left hand and its thumb cluster allows me to move some work from pinkie to thumb, which to me makes sense and works out.
Speedwise, I'm about the same on all my boards. But in terms of what I can use day in and day out, the moonlander is a great solution for me. I think you're right about column stagger. It just makes sense.
Oh man. As a future industrial designer, I can see so many opportunities here.
I can't wait to make some weird shit.
keep that mentality fresh young one. I used to think I could do a lot too..
I love my Iris, I don't have the best posture at my desk when I'm just goofing off. Being able to move the halves around to keep my wrists straight even while not sitting properly is fantastic.
Good video very informative!! Thank you for sharing!!
handsoldering keyboards is really not that hard anymore. it just takes some time and patience. the amount of ressources available online are just crazy. i handwired an ergo 40% on cardboard a couple of months ago without any prior experience and it went rather smoothly somehow. i can really recommend it! also learned a lot in the process!
For anyone that sees this and wants to handwire their own board too, check out Jan Lunge and Joe Scotto. Joe has a really great tutorial on the hand wiring bit, and Jan made his own program named "POG" that can help you automatically map/flash your keyboard with customizable keybinds/layers/etc. Definitely some trial and error still, but very accessible.
Amazing video! Keep it going!
Hey I'm on TV
Yeah no more please
This all lines up pretty well with my experiences, though I haven't tried any well ones. As literally everyone else, started on a standard keyboard that everyone thinks of when they think keyboard, then I bought a planck and that really opened a whole new world for me. I still have extremely mixed feelings on ortholinear layouts, but I also found a lot of fun benefits with the tiny footprint and basically forcing me to rethink how I use a keyboard in the first place. So while I don't think I'd ever really recommend an ortholinear to anyone, if nothing else, it is what set me on my journey.
Now I use a custom built Corne and I honestly love it. I have some frankly pretty minor nitpicks with it so I've been looking at the ZSA Voyager to replace it. That one would give me a dedicated number row back, and I only actually end up using 2 thumb keys so the removal of one isn't even a consideration, and all that while retaining everything that I enjoy this Corne for. Hopefully it's as good as I'm hoping it'll be lol
I made myself a custom col staggered keyboard with measurements from my fingers and good god is it comfortable to never worry about hitting the wrong key. On my normal qwerty non ergo i learned to contort my fingers in weird ways to hit the keys upper or lower of home, and i have been actively unlearning that. You move your fingers up, down or for the outers left or right and it just works. Like, no weird looking/feeling whether you are actually hitting your key or if you are above/below the mark because your finger is curled slightly differently than normal. You reach for a key, and it's there. Also i made a huge thumbfan to take almost all modifier keys away from the fingers, so my hand basically never moves, my fingers are always centred on home and i can just relax my hands because i took my unique hand as a mold to rotate the columns. It just lies as if on a table, and the fingers don't have to move left or right for the other keys because the rows are aligned with them. Heavenly.
I am still experimenting with the layout and thumbfan though, but the letters are already really good.
After making this (considering the effort, time and skill necessary) i was wondering if people would pay for a uniquely made keyboard, but since I haven't used any other ergo keebs, i was thinking that the benefits would probably outweigh the costs to completely customise it. Also it is 100% 3d printed, so the build quality is maybe a bit cheap, and the sound would probably not be enough for "thock" aficionados, i would guess a cnc machine would probably help with that though. Hardly worth investing in one for a keyboard though. I was working on a new version with hotswap capabilities but currently it is hard soldered, probably need a better 3d printer for that too. As before, hardly worth spending 500-600$ at the cheapest to build a single keyboard.
This is more of an ergo speed typing analysis than just an ergo analysis. Found many points I never heard of before that make a lot of sense with speed typing.
The only correction I would make is that your wrist does not need to align with the direction of the keys. Your fingers have no problem adjusting where to press above and below. And case in point, you can't just adjust your wrist angle to adapt to ortho. Your fingers need to learn the adjustment, after which your wrists are free to be where they were (in an optimal position). But yes, if you insist you need to type c with your index, ortho will disagree with you, but fixing that is actually not that hard compared to other adjustments.
The greatest benefit for a tented split has nothing to do with the layout, but with your posture and wrist strain. Ergo, if you're being serious about ergo, begins with your chair and desk and posture, all optimized for your elbows and wrists with relation to the desk. Split means wider shoulders, and tented means less twisted wrists. But even then, the greater issue is with twisting and stretching during typing, more than the stationary angle. There really are only two ways to fix this, and that is either with hovering hands, or with added layers that bring all your keys within 1u distance, so that your wrists can remain stationary.
Ah, I should've better clarified in the video;
Your fingers can get used to improper alignment, definitely true, but the main point on ortho is the corner keys/lateral stretches.
For example, pressing B and E together when the matrix is aligned with your fingers feels easier than when it is, say, angled like when your hands are placed on ortho. You can see how the angle of splaying between your finger increases as you unalign the keyboard more - due to the fingers "moving" in different directions.
On a staggered keyboard, if you do the angle mod, every key is actually comparatively closer (with exception to Y since the top row is not modified). Basically, B + E becomes V + E. At least for my hand size, that is easier than it would be on ortho - thus rendering it rather ineffective.
The c part, by the way, I was referring to as an unconscious thing people often do as that feels more comfortable - not necessarily that it is the correct way. According to "strict" fingering, middle is actually the "proper" way to do it - although funny enough I'm not sure if that's actually better.
The rest is true yup! Main point was that I personally believe ortho is a flawed design (again, when it is not split). I always like to remind people that you shouldn't have to adapt to your keyboard - rather, it should adapt to you.
@@val0rance Thank you for your thorough response and your thought provoking video. Your video is the first time I even heard of alt as in alt fingering... And once I figured that out it made a lot more sense. Also why people could type so fast on qwerty lol
You also didn't mention thumb usage optimization which is one of the main selling points on the ergo/comfort side of things, but understandably has absolutely nothing to do with speed =)
I do not agree that layers are more ergonomic. I use the number row and are a tad faster than having those on a layer, but need to move the hand a bit more for that of course. It is a matter of preference and also related if you just type a few numbers or many in a row, where I agree an extra layer is then beneficial. You can use both btw. No need to just use one option.
@@nickgoogle4525 There is nothing more ergonomic than having numbers on your home row.
For the most part, if you don't experience pain or discomfort, you can always go with what you like best. It's when things start hurting that they get serious, and begin to constrain your options.
With that said, do not shy away from layers. A 40% with 3 layers is a 120% keyboard, and all keys can be at 1u distance. I'm typing on a 60 atm, but use my 40 layers just because they are so efficient.
Built my own Dactyl Manuform a few years ago after using an Ergodox for years before that. Biggest upside to a keywell style to me is actually the angle of the thumb cluster. This is all for comfort, not speed. I'm never been a crazy fast typer but I'm ok at 100WPM on QWERTY. I've considered moving away from QWERTY but as a PC gamer it makes things WAY more complicated.
I'm loving my switch to a ZSA Moonlander - switching to colemak forced me to lean to touch type finally, and it straddles the keywell-colstag gap with the angle adjustable thumbcluster. I don't think I'll ever move to a true keywell board, barring health issues, because of the massive portability loss. colstag boards especially have gotten smaller and smaller, and I'm planning on building a choc board (probably a Totem) in the near future for this reason
I’ve been using split keyboards in my work as a software developer for over a decade. I do not care about speed, at all. I would rather type more comfortably and slower than aggregate RSI pain for speed. Split ergo keyboards are optimized for this comfort, not for speed.
You're doing god's work over here.
Yay Kuntum mentioned🎉🎉🎉
Amazing video! using Corne here and share 100% what you shared'
Concave split is awesome. I was typing a lot and started to get wrist pain, switched to an ergo keyboard (Glove80) and pain disappeared in a week.
I had forearm pain and got a Moonlander it helped but was a bulky for traveling so I switched to the Voyager and I think it’s perfect.
I've been on the fence on getting an Alice keyboard for the last couple of months.... this just solidified my decision and I'm getting one now :D any recommendations for a case?
Dygma Defy is my choice since my thumbs need a use pair that with a Gameball Trackball mouse so my middle finger can be useful as well hehee
i don't use a split keyboard, i use 3 keyboards
1 for my left hand, 1 for my right hand, 1 in the middle if I want to type 'normally'
Appreciate the video: history and interviews. One thing: the synthetic voice distracted me. Maybe just pitch it next time rather than reverb/or whatever processing was on it.
Nice video!
Surprised they go for colstag instead of dactyls.
TBK mini saved me from injuries after trying sofle/corne.
Dactyls are definitely the best in terms of comfort.
Nice vid mate
Night!
Great video
I been using a standard tkl/75%/60% for a while and never had improper wrist bending issues. I use proper touch typing techniques on a QWERTY layout and top 150wpm on a 30 sec typing test. I find it's fastest to type on tactile mechanical switches with a hard mounting system. Just sharing my experience. I guess not everyone can be comfortable with such a setup though.
Subscribed so you can get a Svalboard
I have the Reviung 41. It whas a long period of adaptation, but it's much more confortable than any other keyboard that I test. The only con that I can think it's that do not have the number line up. The next keyboard that I want to buy is the Lily58, split, numbers and full compatibility with VIA/QMK
I love your Keebio Iris. This comment was typed on a Keebio Iris with Boba U4Ts.
@@KitesAndDarts Good switch choice :3
I think the trouble with this is that you'd need a lifelong study of keyboard use, where a substantial number of people used ergonpmic split boards for the majority of that time, to have any chance of truly determing whether it matters.
In the meantime, I just find it more comfortable.
Thanks.
Wonderful!
"Kara"-corder, as in Character Recorder. Also the bottom row of keys on that tiny Monstrosity/Abomination/RSI Induction Device masquerading as a keyboard make Us want to take a hammer to it.
Some day kids will be asking why the icon for the messaging app with their brain integrated computer system is a grid of squares.
which switch type do you like more linear or tactile?
Rip clicky bros (me)
@@reillocb they feel amazing till u start typing at 3 am...
Both. Both are good :P - I quite like tactiles for every day usage, but linears for speedtyping. If I had to pick one, tactiles are more fun - assuming you're not coming from membrane.
Are ideas on keyboards like Chara Chorder?
You should try a Charachorder
What journal do you use?
It's this one amzn.to/3Z0cLQ3 (aff. link). Supposedly comes with a moleskin, but mine definitively didn't :/.
Problem with alternative key layout is when you live in a place where English is not the main language.
Some other languages have custom layouts designed for them :D, search around you may find some (German has a few, Chinese lots, Japanese too, etc.)
There are also quite a few designed ones (French I know of a few) that just aren't published so most people don't know about them.
You didn't speak about hand size at all. Not about yours, nor about your interview subjects ones.
A lot of things you talking about, like scissoring, using different fingers, using several fingers for one keyc e.t.c. is HUGELY dependent on hand size. Like for example the reason your version Dactyl has only 3 button rows, or even 40% in general existence is likely due to it's developer all having small hands.
Also didn't hear you mentioning that there is an option to generate 3d print model of dactyl for you hand size and also change the amount of buttons & rows based on you finger length.
Btw the stagger on split keyboards is also based on a hand sizes, especially the pinky one. This is literary the reason why you felt your pinky finger stagger wasn't enough.
The scope of your typing analysis still rather limited.
Like The idea that typing fast is somehow good for you health or ergonomic is rather questionable. It may feel right at surface. Typing faster means you type less, hence less chance of RSI, but if you type with errors and you often need to backspace then you ride a much higher risk than someone who types slowly but with less errors. Or, you know. someone who DOENS"T PRESS BACKSPACE in the top right corner at all. Like most people who's like myself use multiple layered layouts. This is a huge part of this split layered or less that 40% layout after all.
Also monkeytype is good and all. But you should really include some whole text with punctuation ad coding benchmarks. Monkeytype is very synthetik benchmark aimed at measuring short bursts of typing speed which doesn't represent real world typing experience like coding or writing.
In the first place i don't think people with only monkeytype high scores can be called experts on ergonomics or typing. After all some of the fastest typist use stuff like notebook keyboard, and they are often also very young, like some of your interviews subjects. All the stuff like RSI is still in their future. Of course they are fast, healthy and doesn't experience problem with qwerty when they are this young and in the zone. It would've been better to interview some experienced coders and or writers, after their physiological prime years.
The money part.
Microsoft natural ergonomics costs like 40-60$. The most expensive surface version sits at something like 150$+, the same with logitech one. The basic mass produce keyboard is simply the best option for introduction into ergonomic keyboard space cost wise. Also second hand options is always available for a mechanical one, since you can easily replace switches (hotswap) & keycaps and have yourself almost a new keyboard.
1) Good point on hand size, it’s my fault for leaving that out.
2) Yes, I’m aware of 3D printed customized dactyls, but it has very little to do with the claims presented in the video (i.e., “not necessary” compared to colstag + tenting, at least imo).
3) I should have probably clarified that this was for my keyboard specifically, but if you take a look at, for example, the piantor, has a much more aggressive pinky stagger. It’s more of a poke at popular colstags trying to optimize more for crowd compatibility over that of ergonomics.
4) I never stated once in the video that typing fast is better for your health. The claim was speed (which for many [for some reason] is the reason they adopt ergo. I suspect this is because of the claims commonly marketed with ergo keyboards being “more efficient for typing (see: OLKB)) isn’t dependent on using an ergo keyboard, and health can be better optimized by using alt layouts.
5) That was the claim in the video… you don’t have to press certain keys in so and so way. The backspace example was to initiate that idea (many people on ergo for example use thumb keys for backspace or caps lock, and also the whole thing with alt layouts).
6) The idea of coding benchmarks is a good one, but that leans more into keyboard size and layers. Many people use a separate layer specifically designed for coding, and this all dives more into software than that of hardware (again reiterating the point of software > hardware being more significant). Maybe I could’ve emphasized the utility of thumb keys, true.
I should also clarify that my opinions on each of these keyboards were not formed over monkeytype alone (it was just in the video as an example). I used each of these keyboards for multiple months and for multiple purposes.
7) About the money, I’m not sure where you are getting your information on microsoft and logitech keyboards. The only one I can currently find is the logitech wave (and ergo for around $100). I’m not sure if you are relying on past information, but microsoft has stopped manufacturing their ergonomic keyboards for a while now - most remaining being price jacked insanely. Also, yes true.
@@trashviewer3521 for context, I am the first interviewee in the video and a programmer myself; accuracy is one of my personal focuses in typing (because frankly it's just more enjoyable to be accurate, that's all).
While it is true that being fast at monkeytype doesn't necessarily mean you're good at typing correctly ergonomics-wise, there's a limit to how many things you can be doing wrong while still being fast.
Also alt layout typists generally tend to not be the kind that just spam monkeytype runs, that's mostly a QWERTY user thing, since they usually care about the speed more than proper ergo. These two groups are quite different despite usually using the same website as a benchmark, and will have different average accuracies and alt layout typists will most likely not be using backspace in the top but have it bound somewhere better (I personally have Ctrl-Backspace bound to my Caps Lock key).
@@val0rance >4) I never stated once in the video that typing fast is better for your health.
>I suspect this is because of the claims commonly marketed with ergo keyboards being “more efficient for typing (see: OLKB))
>OLKB
Oh god, no. Not this PLANK preachers. If guys like them will be left to form the public opinion around ergo keyboard, we will still be typing on a typewriters for next 200 years.
Well my info may be a little bit out of date, but most of the marketing around ergonomic keyboard i was subjected to, was about them being better for you health, more comfortable, and sometimes allowing you to type longer and \or faster as a consequence. The keyword was always "efficiencty and health benefits" not the speed. The split and 7) About the money, I’m not sure where you are getting your information on microsoft and logitech keyboards.
Yeah, it seems my info a tad bit out of date. Though some googling point to the article named
>Microsoft partners with Incase to bring back its recently discontinued keyboards and mice
which states that the discontinued peripherals can be relaunched in the future.
>The only one I can currently find is the logitech wave (and ergo for around $100)
Even though the currently available logitech ergo one is still a pretty good starting point, since it provides both a little bit of tilt & split. Also scissor switches.
I subbed now you will be monitized.
I wish a Corne keyboard wasn't 600+ bucks where i live (brazil)
just built one (look for cheapino)
@@Pepo.. yeah, i will take a look at it (a pre built one costs 570 bucks here..)
Do you mean Brazilian Bucks, right? I built one for around R$684 / US$120 including shipping and taxes, it's doable. It could be even cheaper if I went for cheaper switches and keycaps.
@@gcolombelli which one?
@@Pepo.. A DIY low profile corne with kailh choc switches, here's the breakup of what I paid:
R$279 PCB + plates + screens
R$185 keycaps
R$181 switches
R$21 TRRS cable
R$18 pro micro style atmega 32u4 mcus
Initially I was using keycaps I designed and 3D printed at home, but I wasn't too happy with them and ended up replacing with mass produced ones. Got the PCB, plates and screens from 42keebs and everything else from aliexpress. I'm rounding up the cents here, but in the end it was ~ R$684 with shipping and taxes included.
If you're building with friends you may pool your resources and save a bit if you're using similar parts. For example, I only needed 42 switches, but I would pay more getting sets of 10 or 30 than on a set of 70 switches, so I ended up with 28 extra ones. I may end up using a few of them on a hitbox style controller later.
I'm on first minute and I already see the problem with how you are not testing any mass produced ergonomic keyboards, like microsoft natural ergonomics or logitech ergo, and instead opting for their inferior counterfeit of Arisu/Alice. The difference is microsoft and logitech have somewhat sculpted keywells, when Arisu/Alice ones are just flat.
Arisu/Alice is kind of like Plank. Some sort of half measure form factor that doesn't provide anything of value to anyone in anything, but require huge time investment to figure it out, that can't be converted into anything useful afterwards.
@@trashviewer3521
Yes, that's kinda the point... I purposely chose Alice so people can see the effects of each ergonomic optimization independently.
I've never seen a community as afflicted by the placebo effect as the split kb community. They're the star wars fans of keyboards.
There’s studies going back to at least the 80s on a few of the features (tenting and splitting the hands seem to help with some issues)
But no standards or certainly blind testing on some other claims
HR departments might not pay for rgb lights, but they’ve been kicking in for Kinesis keyboards for decades on physical therapist’s advice
So yeah it’s the Wild West, and that can be annoying, but if you can’t type because your arms feel like they’re on fire, it’s nice to know that tenting your keyboard 20-30° has had research backing it for a while
(Not that old studies are as good as lots of ongoing research between now and then. Just not a lot of money to back them I suppose)
Keyboard nerds exaggerate the benefits of split keyboards. I have been using a 40% nonsplit for over 3 years and I've not had any problem whatsoever.
no not really and the benefits are for the long run, also split can be way more efficient
I thought the same when I was 20, with +35, and after too many hours of programming, the split keebs help me with having better body posture, open chest, no pressure on forearms, no ulnar deviation, etc. At the end of the week I appreciate every little detail.
@@newdev76 I'm 34 but not a programmer, just a regular guy. Maybe splits are good for you but inconvenient for me. I don't type enough to the point where it harms my hands.
Ultimately, alike how there are so many factors affecting a keyboard's sound, there are also a heck ton of factors affecting a keyboard's ergonomics, and the size is certainly one of them. Having a 60% mechanical keyboard can widely be considered as more ergonomic in comparison to a full sized rubber dome one from what I've seen, and at that rate it's more so coming down to what exactly is "enough" for the user and what they are paying for it. It makes sense how your current one works for you, primarily because it's already straying towards the ergonomic side then, and there wouldn't really be much of a reason to spend an extra hundred or two on a split one just for a modular upgrade of sorts. Makes more sense if you didn't have the 40% nonsplit, but obviously it's capable enough.
In terms of pricing, I've found 60% keyboards to be much cheaper in comparison to 40% ones, obviously because the latter isn't that mass produced in comparison and at that rate you'd best be paying a bit more for split columnar options with the same form factor, but those are only the circumstances I would see now and not three years ago of course. Split options probably didn't always use to be readily available in the extent that they are nowadays, beforehand there were only really commercial options offered by Kinesis and so for example which nowadays, considering the feature sets of their offerings, would be considered a bit overpriced actually, but that's besides the point...
@@alpacamale2909 The problem for programmers with regular keebs, is not the speed, +200 wpm is not a sustainable speed for longer sessions, the problem is the shift+number for symbols, ctrl+letter for shortcuts, the navigation cluster, etc., in a split with thumb cluster and layers, those problems are less awkward movements and a more relaxing way to type.
I thought you weren't alting Night 🥲
I alt whenever I remember to 🤣 - colstag I usually don't but I started a bit on rowstag ever since I found out I could get SFSs down to ~0.5% - 2% depending on how many I implement for Eng-200.