I whole-heartedly welcome this video, because now I don't need to make it anymore. The OFF arm is the least important thing in the throw. It moves the way it moves because the body moves the way it moves, but to actively swing it or especially punch down to brace is just wrong. Thx!
I fully agree with you, but with a minor tweak in how it’s said. I think if you’re trying to mimic a pro who does it, without yourself NEEDING to do it… then it’s absolutely wrong. Some fundamentals are key to watch and copy. Off arm isn’t. But watching Simons form (who does punch down) isn’t wrong, because it’s right for Simon. Doesn’t mean it’s right for me. Hopefully we agree on that because I’m not trying to contradict you. I think punching down HELPS some people pin their arm down to rotate faster. I’ve actively tried to punch down and pin and it feels awful.
@@TwoOneSe7en The thing is, even I look like I "punch down" but I never really punch down. My arm drops down because the weight drops down. I also have experimented swinging deliberately forward with the hips, and yes, the arm looks like Paul's then. I'm quite sure 99 per cent of the pros don't do anything with the off arm intentionally. Maybe just tuck it in, but that's it. Then it looks like they do bunch of stuff with it, without them ever giving a thought.
@@Picklemedia I'll just repost my comment so that you read it this time: The thing is, even I look like I "punch down" but I never really punch down. My arm drops down because the weight drops down. I also have experimented swinging deliberately forward with the hips, and yes, the arm looks like Paul's then. I'm quite sure 99 per cent of the pros don't do anything with the off arm intentionally. Maybe just tuck it in, but that's it. Then it looks like they do bunch of stuff with it, without them ever giving a thought.
This dudes tips are crazy I was throwing 300ft abt two weeks ago when I saw his first video in that time I’ve watched all of his vids and tryed to incorporate everything he does into my form today I throw a 400ft golf line super excited to see my max distance noe
I really appreciate the minimalist approach you learned from your dad and use in your videos. My control has improved immensely, and I’ve even gained a little distance, because of your simple swing thoughts. Thanks! Sometimes slow is fast and less is more.
Another great fundamental/instructional video Leon. I find that most people just starting out do things in their throw techniques, especially lunging forward with the shoulders, and of course the nose up problem. Distance can never be achieved when the disc flight is bound to stall out and fall to the ground. The elbow position must be correct as well as the throw arm comes through, driven by the hips and shoulders. If the bend of the elbow is facing to the sky, a nose up release is bound to happen. Here is a great idea for you and your teaching abilities for beginners. So many disc golf wanna bees watch these videos to learn proper throw technique. See if you can get some volunteers that you can teach and correct their flaws in their throw form. The off arm is just one part of good throw technique. Watching a new player discover and see results is so satisfying for any teacher, and you are a good one. The shoulders do not lunge forward. It is the coil winding around the core that beginners just understand. Timing is everything and the parts of a good throw happens fast for the best results. Summary for you in a future video: Get a beginner to stop rounding, feel the importance of throwing with the hips, plant the brace foot first and then begin the hip & shoulders uncoiling, and of course the elbow/arm position parallel to the ground. There is no better feeling than watching new players learn to throw the correct way, making disc golf a fun and effective sporting experience!☺Merry Christmas Leon, you videos are A+ so straight forward to watch. Like you say often, is is just physics and can only be done one correct way☺Sincerely, Bill M., PDGA #7378☺
Leon, Thanks for making this video. Loved hearing your take on the off arm because it's a problem for me when rotating. I'm going to look for balance issues and use your hand in the pocket drill. Thanks again. ~Face
Great video man. The off arm is super important in my opinion. I think most that do the left hand in pocket drill and continue to throw this way never truly get the rubberband/lag effect from the left arm. It's definitely a great drill to figure out what it should feel like as the left arm "swings in". Also standing stacked with the left arm close and practicing rotating out/throwing out from that position is another great way to feel how the left arm stops to eject the disc back out, then comes thru to follow-through.
It seems to me the off arm is essentially for balance, rotation and momentum. You will use it to keep the body upright and keep the center of gravity closer to your spine as you rotate. It helps speed up rotation as the off arm comes in closer to your body during the swing. But it also helps slow the body's rotation at the peak of the backswing. That's why the body projects the off arm outward, to slow it down. At maximum extension of the throwing arm, the off arm should also be at maximum extension. The tricky part is really training someone to use the off arm to help with momentum. If it's brought inward at the same time as the throwing arm is brought inward, it's not going to interfere with the throw - provided they aren't trying to occupy the same space. But higher-level throwers use the off arm to initiate the throw, to where they start bringing it in first, then bringing the throwing arm in. The body rotates, and before the disc is in the power pocket, the off arm is at it's in-most position. By the time the disc is released, the off arm performing some form of "swim" move as it pushes back to some extent. This is hard to see in real time, but if you frame-by-frame examine what the pros are doing, the off arm often comes in before the throwing arm is engaged. And that's because there is a transfer of motion energy from the off arm, through the body an throwing arm, to the disc.
The Coriolis force is what it is called when rotation is slow or faster. It's the same reason why figure skaters spin faster when their arms are close to the body.
Err, no. The coriolis force is an effect of the rotation of a celestial body. The law of conservation of momentum (in this case angular momentum) is what's sought after here. However, the law of conservation of momentum is pretty damn useless in the case of a discgolf throw, because the offarm doesn't really come in with any amount of force for most throwers (see Drew Gibson for an excellent example of a bomber who doesn't rotate the arm at all), and the throwing arm comes in, then out, so the speed balances out for the throwing arm and is negligible for the offarm.
It doesn't matter if the arm comes with force (speed?) or not. If it is far away from the body it will "consume" some of the angular momentum. The heavier the arm and the further away from the body means that it will take more of the angular momentum.
Spin in a circle on a swing set. When you spread your arms wide, you spin slower, and when you tuck them in you accelerate. That's how I describe the off arm and its function, but I'm a knucklehead. Load energy with a wider Center of mass and accelerate by bringing the mass inward
This was so helpful bro! I have always tried to make my off arm do what my favorite pros off arms do, and when I do that instead of letting my arm be natural my whole form gets terrible!
Can you do a video on that shoulder lean that you talked about at 7 min. I do that and have issues with off arm. You're doing great content, keep it up!
What are you thoughts on this interesting off arm comment I've heard from Overthrow DG: It was something like bringing the off arm in and holding it close acts as a sort of anchor for the rest of the body to rotate around and that anchor point helps create the whip effect and also helps avoid over rotating by having that anchor the disc will eject sooner instead of ejecting late after over-rotation.
Could or could not be true but either way I personally Like to keep it a little Bit more simple, this seems Like a more complex thought than necessary imo
Hey Leon, I'm still having trouble with my throws. My shoulder muscle between neck and shoulder is still getting pulled and sore. Do you think maybe I'm rounding and not bringing the disc in. Sucks because it's been over a week and it still hurts a little bit
You should record a video of your form at side and rear views, and submit them to a form review. Best to read the tips on that, but that's the best way to get free advice. That said, a coach may be worth paying for at some point. You should be able to get a little sore, but you don't want to pull a muscle or tendon and get a strain/sprain. Or otherwise hurt yourself. It's quite possible that you are impinging your shoulder a bit if the upper arm comes in at too much of an acute angle, relative to the shoulders.
What about when the off arm is coming forward during the power pocket and the elbow is bent at 90 degrees, with the hand near the lead hip? It’s like a “punching forward” motion. What would be the form issue that causes that? Cause that’s what I do and am trying to fix it cause it actually hurts my off arm elbow
I whole-heartedly welcome this video, because now I don't need to make it anymore. The OFF arm is the least important thing in the throw. It moves the way it moves because the body moves the way it moves, but to actively swing it or especially punch down to brace is just wrong. Thx!
I fully agree with you, but with a minor tweak in how it’s said. I think if you’re trying to mimic a pro who does it, without yourself NEEDING to do it… then it’s absolutely wrong. Some fundamentals are key to watch and copy. Off arm isn’t. But watching Simons form (who does punch down) isn’t wrong, because it’s right for Simon. Doesn’t mean it’s right for me. Hopefully we agree on that because I’m not trying to contradict you. I think punching down HELPS some people pin their arm down to rotate faster. I’ve actively tried to punch down and pin and it feels awful.
@@TwoOneSe7en The thing is, even I look like I "punch down" but I never really punch down. My arm drops down because the weight drops down. I also have experimented swinging deliberately forward with the hips, and yes, the arm looks like Paul's then. I'm quite sure 99 per cent of the pros don't do anything with the off arm intentionally. Maybe just tuck it in, but that's it. Then it looks like they do bunch of stuff with it, without them ever giving a thought.
If it's not important, why do all the pros do it?
@@Picklemedia I'll just repost my comment so that you read it this time: The thing is, even I look like I "punch down" but I never really punch down. My arm drops down because the weight drops down. I also have experimented swinging deliberately forward with the hips, and yes, the arm looks like Paul's then. I'm quite sure 99 per cent of the pros don't do anything with the off arm intentionally. Maybe just tuck it in, but that's it. Then it looks like they do bunch of stuff with it, without them ever giving a thought.
@@dgspindoctor I'm sorry, I thought you said: "the OFF arm is the least important thing in the throw". My mistake
I have learned so much from you in a very short period of time. The way you explain things makes it very easy to put into practice
We need more form reviews from Leon! This is fantastic.
You have such a good way of explaining things. You should be a teacher at Paul Ulibarri's academy!
Thanks a Lot!
This dudes tips are crazy I was throwing 300ft abt two weeks ago when I saw his first video in that time I’ve watched all of his vids and tryed to incorporate everything he does into my form today I throw a 400ft golf line super excited to see my max distance noe
Let's gooooo 💪💪💪 keep it up
I really appreciate the minimalist approach you learned from your dad and use in your videos. My control has improved immensely, and I’ve even gained a little distance, because of your simple swing thoughts. Thanks! Sometimes slow is fast and less is more.
Great to hear, thanks! Simplicity is King 💰
Another great fundamental/instructional video Leon. I find that most people just starting out do things in their throw techniques, especially lunging forward with the shoulders, and of course the nose up problem. Distance can never be achieved when the disc flight is bound to stall out and fall to the ground. The elbow position must be correct as well as the throw arm comes through, driven by the hips and shoulders. If the bend of the elbow is facing to the sky, a nose up release is bound to happen. Here is a great idea for you and your teaching abilities for beginners. So many disc golf wanna bees watch these videos to learn proper throw technique. See if you can get some volunteers that you can teach and correct their flaws in their throw form. The off arm is just one part of good throw technique. Watching a new player discover and see results is so satisfying for any teacher, and you are a good one. The shoulders do not lunge forward. It is the coil winding around the core that beginners just understand. Timing is everything and the parts of a good throw happens fast for the best results. Summary for you in a future video: Get a beginner to stop rounding, feel the importance of throwing with the hips, plant the brace foot first and then begin the hip & shoulders uncoiling, and of course the elbow/arm position parallel to the ground. There is no better feeling than watching new players learn to throw the correct way, making disc golf a fun and effective sporting experience!☺Merry Christmas Leon, you videos are A+ so straight forward to watch. Like you say often, is is just physics and can only be done one correct way☺Sincerely, Bill M., PDGA #7378☺
Leon, Thanks for making this video. Loved hearing your take on the off arm because it's a problem for me when rotating. I'm going to look for balance issues and use your hand in the pocket drill. Thanks again. ~Face
No worries, happy to Help! Thanks for watching!
Great video man. The off arm is super important in my opinion. I think most that do the left hand in pocket drill and continue to throw this way never truly get the rubberband/lag effect from the left arm. It's definitely a great drill to figure out what it should feel like as the left arm "swings in". Also standing stacked with the left arm close and practicing rotating out/throwing out from that position is another great way to feel how the left arm stops to eject the disc back out, then comes thru to follow-through.
It seems to me the off arm is essentially for balance, rotation and momentum. You will use it to keep the body upright and keep the center of gravity closer to your spine as you rotate. It helps speed up rotation as the off arm comes in closer to your body during the swing. But it also helps slow the body's rotation at the peak of the backswing. That's why the body projects the off arm outward, to slow it down. At maximum extension of the throwing arm, the off arm should also be at maximum extension.
The tricky part is really training someone to use the off arm to help with momentum. If it's brought inward at the same time as the throwing arm is brought inward, it's not going to interfere with the throw - provided they aren't trying to occupy the same space. But higher-level throwers use the off arm to initiate the throw, to where they start bringing it in first, then bringing the throwing arm in. The body rotates, and before the disc is in the power pocket, the off arm is at it's in-most position.
By the time the disc is released, the off arm performing some form of "swim" move as it pushes back to some extent. This is hard to see in real time, but if you frame-by-frame examine what the pros are doing, the off arm often comes in before the throwing arm is engaged. And that's because there is a transfer of motion energy from the off arm, through the body an throwing arm, to the disc.
Awesome breakdown. Thanks dude!!
Great to hear, thanks for watching!
Really great stuff Leon. Your tips have helped my game a ton. I love the hand in the pocket tip - makes it easy to practice. Thanks!
Great to hear, thanks!
This is honestly really brilliant. I have a feeling this is going to be very useful.
Great to hear, thanks for watching!
The Coriolis force is what it is called when rotation is slow or faster. It's the same reason why figure skaters spin faster when their arms are close to the body.
Yes!
Conservation of angular momentum
Err, no. The coriolis force is an effect of the rotation of a celestial body. The law of conservation of momentum (in this case angular momentum) is what's sought after here.
However, the law of conservation of momentum is pretty damn useless in the case of a discgolf throw, because the offarm doesn't really come in with any amount of force for most throwers (see Drew Gibson for an excellent example of a bomber who doesn't rotate the arm at all), and the throwing arm comes in, then out, so the speed balances out for the throwing arm and is negligible for the offarm.
It doesn't matter if the arm comes with force (speed?) or not. If it is far away from the body it will "consume" some of the angular momentum. The heavier the arm and the further away from the body means that it will take more of the angular momentum.
Great Video & well said!!
Thanks for watching!
Spin in a circle on a swing set.
When you spread your arms wide, you spin slower, and when you tuck them in you accelerate.
That's how I describe the off arm and its function, but I'm a knucklehead.
Load energy with a wider Center of mass and accelerate by bringing the mass inward
This was so helpful bro! I have always tried to make my off arm do what my favorite pros off arms do, and when I do that instead of letting my arm be natural my whole form gets terrible!
happy it works for you!
Can you do a video on that shoulder lean that you talked about at 7 min. I do that and have issues with off arm. You're doing great content, keep it up!
Might do that!
Thats the style Overthrow teach :p
What are you thoughts on this interesting off arm comment I've heard from Overthrow DG:
It was something like bringing the off arm in and holding it close acts as a sort of anchor for the rest of the body to rotate around and that anchor point helps create the whip effect and also helps avoid over rotating by having that anchor the disc will eject sooner instead of ejecting late after over-rotation.
Could or could not be true but either way I personally Like to keep it a little Bit more simple, this seems Like a more complex thought than necessary imo
Nice vid!
Thanks!
Hey Leon, I'm still having trouble with my throws. My shoulder muscle between neck and shoulder is still getting pulled and sore. Do you think maybe I'm rounding and not bringing the disc in. Sucks because it's been over a week and it still hurts a little bit
You should record a video of your form at side and rear views, and submit them to a form review. Best to read the tips on that, but that's the best way to get free advice. That said, a coach may be worth paying for at some point. You should be able to get a little sore, but you don't want to pull a muscle or tendon and get a strain/sprain. Or otherwise hurt yourself. It's quite possible that you are impinging your shoulder a bit if the upper arm comes in at too much of an acute angle, relative to the shoulders.
@@NickCarroll I keep meaning too but forget lol I will try to remember to do that
Unfortunately I don't think I can give you advice without a visual, since there are thousands of possible reasons for your issue
What about when the off arm is coming forward during the power pocket and the elbow is bent at 90 degrees, with the hand near the lead hip? It’s like a “punching forward” motion. What would be the form issue that causes that? Cause that’s what I do and am trying to fix it cause it actually hurts my off arm elbow
Hard to tell without looking at it. I'm Not really Sure what you mean by "punching forward"?
Didn't Overthrow do a video on how much speed he got from tucking in the off arm? 5mph, I believe. That's significant
Don't know that Video but could very Well be the Case!
@bodanzadiscgolf beat him by a day!
yeah but Leon actually knows what he's talking about lol
true... neither of us were the first to think of it. That's for sure.@@BodanzaDiscGolf
@@BodanzaDiscGolfhaha 😂