Intel’s Secret Weapon
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- Опубликовано: 7 окт 2024
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Intel’s Secret Weapon - Arrow Lake + CAMM2
Intel has new CPUs coming out soon that could get a huge boost in performance thanks to a new memory technology. Unlike AMD, Intel should not be limited by infinity fabric meaning that better memory performance can substantially improve gaming and workstation performance. Not only this, but it looks as though Intel is finally improving their power draw.
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There is no need to think, that's why we have you to inform us! ;-)
@@deagt3388 But you should think, because there is a reason, why they sell Windows 11 so cheap. The license codes are all illegaly generated. Microsoft can void you license at any time.
Petition to call the Core Ultra 9 285K just i9-285K no matter what Intel says
It'll always be i9 in our hearts
u9-285k ? 🤷♂
@@ninpgmer8959 actually could work
Core Ultra Mega 9 285KF
Core Ultra 9 285KFX Extreme Plus 3D
Can't wait for intel to get back into the competition
Yeah i find it so weird how so many people are praying on their downfall just because they love amd so much. With no competition what do they think will happen to amd's pricing?
It already is. You just have to know what you are doing.
@@InnocentiusLacrimosa ye if you know your way with ddr5 intel is very much in the competition
Ditto... competitiion is good.. besides Intel is a US company.
@@jimmyironatx so is AMD
It's not just bandwidth. You could largely fix that going 3 channel. It's also latency going all that physical distance across a noisy motherboard. And yes, compared to cache, on chip or even on package it is a LONG distance even at the speed electricity flows (.1C IIRC) and it's also all the rest. Main memory vs cache is a tenfold increase in latency or more.
@@kaseyboles30do u man that even with camm2
Amd 3d v cashe
Will still be faster and better
And by the way why intel dont use 3d vcashe??
@@Adel-sj4ue For bandwidth and especially latency sensitive apps (games) more cache will still be a LOT better. Cam2 still has the potential to be significantly better than dims, just nowhere near as good as something like 3d v-cache. or even on package memory like hbm.
Intel is working on their own solution for that, but these things take time to work out. Arrow lake is their first multi-die design and they are talking about having dedicated cache dies at some point.
@@kaseyboles30 theory is always ahead reality
@@majkosk8x There is some evidence for beyond theory for cam2's being an improvement And the rest is well known. The utility of faster, lower latency memory for cache for example goes back to the early 32bit days (386/486).
i hope they make these camm2 super fast ram on 32gb dimms not everyone needs 190gb of ram lol
Speak for yourself
192GB DDR5-8800 CL24 kits are going to be a real thing. That is absolutely insane.
The question then becomes, Is the speed of the memory being held back by the Infinity Fabric, or is the speed of the Infinity Fab being held back by the memory latency?
With Zen 5, (at least the 1st iteration of it), the I/O dye is the same as Zen 4. The memory controllers are on the I/O dye. So those haven't changed.
Having dramatically higher bandwidth ~ that's a good thing, but the benefit of that is zero or negative, if you can't run the IF at 1:1 with the memory. If you can get a 20% or 30% jump in bandwidth, then the decoupling becomes neutral, but you got to ask if that's a move in the right direction.
It can only be a good thing if you can lower the distance between the cores and the memory silicon. If you can take most of the 'wiring' for the memory, off the motherboard ~ I think that's got to help. That's fundamentally why the 3d cache ones are so good for gaming. Three times the cache, and it's right there on top of the cores. The problem then becomes heat and cooling.
----
It all comes back to the same concept as tuning a car or bike. Every time you improve one thing ~ that just gets you to the next bottle-neck. Something else becomes the limiting factor.
Hey ~ this is the game of life. Being dead is over rated.
You are right, but they need to crack those numbers up for the consumer to buy new expensive RAM.
The consumer see those numbers, and think big numbers are better, except for the first CA latency that must be the lowest possible.
Are the slowest infinity fabric because you're held back by memory
Or are held back by memory because you're the slowest infinity fabric
Nah I'd oxidize
Can we just take a moment to appreciate the fact that this man grew not one, not two but *three* mustaches on his face for us???
Wow lol
i just see 3 eyebrows 🤣
Ppl need to stop dreaming about getting 30-40% performance boost from a single generation. Thats not how it works cause the companiesaking these things would go out of business if they just sold only the newest and best stuff. They develop stuff thats atleast 5 yrs into the future so they control the rate of generatiol improvement and the profit margin incentivizes them to limit the improvements as much as they can. They need to sell new old stock first or else its value would drop if it competed with better new stock. And they would lose profits.
This is for 3 generations. Intel 12, 13, 14th gens are basically the same generation. I think Intel could even do better because they canceled the 32 core top line. They probably could milk that down the line similar to 13900K adding 8 more e-cores than 12900K.
Your clueless kid Intel won't fail and we'll be laughing at you and kids in four months
@@Fordance100wth is that logic...
also don't put alder lake with the same level as raptor lake blech
@@Fordance10013th gen has more cache, cores, ipc, and more clock to kill the cpu
@manusiaorang2842 , the basic design is the same. Minor tweaks and holding back some features in the 12th gen leads towards another easy upgrade for the 13th and 14th gen.
my 13900k does 7600mhz cl34 no problem, 121 GB/s on aida64
Yeah, but you must admit also that RAM tuning can be tedious.
Never had an issue with ddr 5
There’s only issues if you overclock it to its limits or motherboard is low end 🤷🏻♂️
nana wants you to buy the dip
Personally I'm excited for the Core Ultra 7 265KF/F CPUs, I wanted to upgrade to Ryzen 9000 once it came out and was really getting at the Ryzen 7 9700x but it turned out to be a dissapointment nothing sandwich of a CPU, hope Intel delivers!
wait for the x3d
@@CARLOSRUIZ-pe3mo Chances are the X3D Zen 5 is no more than a few percent faster than the 7800X3D. I mean X3D is basically just added cache. So how is that going to help it when the underlying ZEN 5 arch is not an improvement over ZEN 4.
@@Swecan76 bruh the ultra cores also going to be a few% more hahaah they always are to keep us like slaves
@Swecan76 Pretty sure the vcache will help with the bottlenecking in games.
That was probably your best video yet. Thanks!
Intel comeback starts in October 🎉
Hope they don't fumble the bag and trip on their foot like they have been doing for the past year
Fumble again it is 😂😂😂
Intel is currently being disassembled...
@@07rodrigez Intels EUV nodes are coming online, 2 nodes are up with the 3rd not too far off, and then there's still the Hi NA nodes to get up and running. Intel is in a massive Semi tool upgrade mode as well as new fabs coming in Arizona and Michigan. This stuff takes alot of time to design and then build, ship, install, and then calibrate. Spent the last 7 1/2 years designing, prototyping, and building the vacuum control systems for Intel, just finished the latest and greatest design for new pumps we just released. There is so much more going on behind the scenes.
September* lunar lake is a sneakpeak
hopefully arrow lake cpu provides the much needed competition because CPU prices are extremely bad and I don't want to use ARM until they have developer support
Intel has Boeing’d themselves
What were you doing right before you were interrupted by having to film this video?
This gen coming for intel is going to be goated it's why I haven't made the switch yet with amd. Also there is a reason I haven't moved to ddr5 people really need to chill acting as if it's the end all be all. I'm sitting testing 3200 ddr4 in 4k Vs 6000 ddr5 and it's 0 difference. It's only in 1080p with heavy cpu usage you notice it.
I'll switch to ddr5 this gen coming for sure.
@@reviewforthetube6485 expect each memory chip to be 1k each lmao.
Some RAM sticks can be overclocked to get about 100GB/s on 1:1 CR and 6400MT/s. Because the timings are lower between each burst of data.
still slower than quad channel
No consumer chips are quad channel.
or just solder hbm3 memory next to cpu but probably cost prohibitive
The idea of using HBM with the 9950X should have never been a question.
Interesting sounding new memory technology, but I also remember how everyone was looking for to HBM2, and while it made it into some AMD video cards but never really got adopted.
@@davidfinan4041 because it’s really expensive
@@StrixWar I gues thats my concern with this new tech, what is its price point going to be? I hope it works out and ends up being a good price and better performance but, who knows.
@@davidfinan4041 it’s going to be expensive compared to regular dims just because it will be one module vs 2 or 4. And being a new tech. I feel like probably have a 30-40% markup over regular dims but they will probably also have way better timings and speeds to counter the price
Memory has a small influence about why CPUs are not getting much faster. Same CPU with best or worst Memory, difference is less than 10%. Modern CPUs have tons of cache in prder to minimize the trips to the Memory
power draw for desktop is not a metric gamers care about.
I hate DDR5 too.. My 7800X3D started out being stable with my g.skill 6400/cl32 expo kit and then i had to start decreasing the frequency every now and then to a point where now anything above the advertised guaranteed 5200Mhz is unstable and either causes "just" constant microstutters or even get random BSODs. (and this is on an 8-layer low loss X670E Hero motherboard)
@@kerotomas1 what do you mean ? How is it degrading over time this doesn’t make sense ?
I dont want to crap on anyone's parrade, but its not DIMM thats holding back desktop, i have DDR5 8000 running out of the box in gear 1.
Why does this work with simple XMP profiles when my 7950x struggles with 5600?
APUs(8700G)
AMD's APUS have always been WAY better with their IMC than their CPUs.
For instance, both of my 5700G can hit DDR4 4933C19 and hover around 72-75GB/s
This is better than i can get out of my 7950X at 5600.
Now i dont remember what i was getting out of the 8700G but if i recall, because the FCLK was stuck at 2000(2:1) it was only something like 80GB/s (the reason the 5700G was so fast is because the FCLK, MCLK, and UCLK can all hit 2500Mhz where the 8700G struggles above 2000Mhz on FCLK)
Now, what is good with CAMM2 is that you can get the higher freqneucy, and lower latency of these higher end DIMM kits, but with power similar to SODIMM, while also no longer being stacked so thje modules can be directly cooled, meaning laptops can finally start running fast RAM instead of like in the DDR4 days where desktops were running DDR5 5000 but laptops were all stuck at 3200 or maybe 3800 if you put a heat pip between the 2 SODIMMs.
Just got a 9900x and a ddr5 8000 kit. Gonna be testing for sure.
The faster your Intel CPU gets the faster it degrades 😂
@spacemeter3001 not true. Just do an all-core OC like any sane person has always done with unlocked chips. Only tech ignoramus suffer from the high voltage caused issues.
Arrow lake will be a completely new architecture on a new platform so degradation shouldn't be a problem
😂
AMD Sucks
Intel's arrow lake is going to mop the floor with AMD's 9000 series of X3DVCACHE CPU's
AMD intel is coming for and will dethrone you
In October, it's time to put the crown on the new king 🤴
Intel
Lol
Intel about to leave AMD further behind in the dust. I just love how AMD thought their new product drop was gonna close the gap lol not even close.
All Intel and AMD need to do is do triple channel memory. One of Intel's older generation HEDT platforms had triple channel memory back in the DDR3 days.
A Camm2 RAM stick at 256GB 96000 would be cool.
I may end up going intel cpu once again if they offer good performance / power. like the the 14000 series is decent for performance but used double to triple the amount of power the 7800x3D does at while performing similar in games.
I believe Intel will rule the market after Oct10th release of the Ultra Core lineup. I have seen the info the manufacturing process and backside power will RULE. With Intel's brand new manufacturing facilities it's New Architecture this looks like we are in for a treat. Time will tell and competition is a good thing for everyone consumer wise.
So, glad ya'll waited to see what DDR6 was going to bring to the table? IDK if it's ok to cheat using surface horizontal (cpu like?) mount rather than *completely go for fiber optics which was supposed to be the next phase of lower latency and extreme level of signaling with orders of magnitude higher bandwidth hundreds of gigabits to start... optical pathway nano tubes were supposed to be the concept behind ddr7 and the next iteration of PCIE. Then, in 15 or so years positronic AI brains for androids (eliminating the client PC form factor altogether for a "BODY") , not to be confused with android OS phones.
What do you always go out of your way to have the recording soundwave visible on the monitor behind you?
Blue Giant x86 only
I'll get a core ultra i9 , Camm2 and camm2 compatible motherboard .
Aren't they launching camm2 for AMD boards as well?????
What secret weapon? Intel consumer cps are
a piece of junk. Running hot, wearing out too quickly and having million flaws that will discovered in the next months that when patched will reduce performance. AMD to have something that works reliably for a long time.
For gaming, bandwidth is great and all, but I'm more interested in seeing the latency significantly reduce - half the latency is better than double the bandwidth (for games... obviously other workstationy workflows will benefit greatly from the increased bandwidth.)
Latency depends on DDR memory manufacturers. CPU can provide any timing numbers DDR memory is able to work.
@@alexanderbelov6892 sorry, what's your point? The video is about cam2 memory, specifically it's bandwidth, but it's latency is not much better than ddr5 on intel systems... And I said I'd like to see better latency rather than more bandwidth (for gaming)
IS THE RUMOUR TRUE ABOUT END OCTOBER RELEASE FOR ARROW LAKE?
I'm waiting to find out what this is going to cost. A cutting edge new memory standard with high capacity and high performance is going to be awesome, but not if it costs more than the rest of the system it's running on.
There is no need to think, that's why we have you to inform us! ;-)
Ultra Furnace edition
My guess is that AMD will also be using Cam2 on the same socket AM5. (New boards) but same CPUs work on both old and new boards. So lots of people can buy Zen6 and slot it into their 6000 CL30 socket DDR5 systems for a nice easy upgrade but reviewers will recieve a Cam2 AM5 board for better performance with 8000 DDR5 Zen6 will have a new memeory controller and DDR5 8000 will be at 1 to 1.
😂😂😂
Very unlikely. AMD recent architectures don't benefit from RAM faster than 6000MT/s.
I believe 3 channel should be the min, ideally these CPUs should be 4 channel. Memory bandwidth limitation just chokes Ryzens with 2 CCDs. No need for extreme overclocking of RAM it is just not sustainable. There is no need to overclock the CPU to extreme temps, just 3D technology and high RAM Bandwidth. Cam 2 192GB support 150GB/s looking forward to it.
You're comparing to the old amd frames prior to the 24h2 branch prediction fix, they're 11% faster now, so they're about on parity with 14900k, and the 14900k's are power hungry monster that die and degrade over months.
😂😂😂 intel got the boost as well from the update.
@@iequalsnoob very few things received an uplift on Intel from the update, like 1 out of 50 titles.
@@dwarfcow Hardware Canucks already tested it. Intel also received a decent boost. Raptor Lake remains faster than vanilla Zen5 even after the update.
Put memory on the cpu 64gb
@@cszulu2000 they did on upcoming lunar lake
I guess 32 gig
But only on laptops
@@Adel-sj4ue 16 and 32, no 8 or 64 gig variants on Lunar Lake
@@NothingNewNerd yes u r right
I gues 32 gigs is more than enough for normal user
And who now may be 64 and more come next
Its something like apple cpu
But on windows and on x64 not arm
For gaming and apps comptability
I guess it will be fun to c this cpu performance
@@Adel-sj4ue The memory bandwidth of Lunar Lake is 136 GB/s, so slightly faster than Apples 120 GB/s on the m4
@@NothingNewNerd ooh
That interesting
Do u have an idea about the integrated gpu would be equivlant to what???
How exactly is faster ram going to increase performance dramatically?
The reason we have ram is because of the physical and monetary limitations of cache. Even if we put gigabytes of cache on a CPU, it wont make the CPU much much faster because the execution part of the CPU will be the new bottleneck. The only thing that can give us the performance jump we want is for engineees to rethink how the CPU does calculations and/or cram more transistors in the die using new and smaller processes. They could also increase the physical size of the CPUs to cram more transistors and caches.
They want to sell new expensive RAM for the next builds.
that is why u buy itx boards, shorter traces between the cpu and dimm and u only have two dimms, and u have usually more layers than any other mother board form factor standard.
6800mt/s is doable on most atx 6layers 4 dimmers for intel, it should because my "budget" z690 board which is an asus z690 prime a does 6800mt/s stable but nothing over that, and I have tested with 3 cpus all of which can do 7800-8000mt/s on an itx z790 board, 12700k, and 2x 13900kf.
If the future is caam2 then the logical placement is to place it behind the cpu on the back side of the socket.
Back when ddr5 launched there already were rumors about ddr5 getting to 12000mt/s pretty soon, and I promised myself to stick with b-die until then but alas, here I am. 2 ddr4 mobos and 5 ddr5 mobos later for lga1700. :P
Or a 2-DIMM ATX board like the Apex or Tachyon and have a lot more flexibility and CPU OC potential
The fact (and i do mean fact), that 3D cache (or simply; more cache) has a massive impact on the performance in games is a clear indication that AMD IS memory bandwidth starved. That was the trad off of the chiplet design. Putting a I/O chiplet simply overcame the NUMA problem that AMD fanboys blamed Microsoft for.
Some games
Nice fairytale. Now that one about energy efficient Intel CPU, which won't die sudden death due to bus voltage...
Ok fanboy. AMD zen 5 is DOA. Cope
Dunno what your'e on about... Nowadays you can run 8000MHz RAM just as easily on AM5 as Intel.
the infinty fabric still bottlenecks it though so they dont benefit from it like intel does
@@Nayah9 it's not running 1:1 man. its 1:2. if it was 1:1 the fabric would run at 3000 which it doesnt
@@diony99 Okay yes. Since AM5, 1:1 ratio isn't really a thing anymore. Typically, for a 6000MHz OC, the infinity fabric is set to 2000MHz, which is actually a better ratio than 1:2.
You can get away with even more though.
That's the thing: the new infinity fabric works perfectly fine when decoupled from RAM speed, so you should basically set infinity fabric as high as possible.
😂😂😂 nope
@@iequalsnoob Yup 🙄
i like intel they have to survive
ya, later its another burnout chip. I need a trustworthy processor that can last for 5 to 8 years.
But y camm2 is only for intel
Cant amd also benifit from this new technology???
They can’t benefit nearly as much because their DRAM performance will be largely bottlenecked by Infinity Fabric. This means 6000MT will still be the sweet spot, but they may get lower CAS latencies.
@@GraphicallyChallenged thanks man
A great vedieo as always
My RaptorLake is 5.6 24.7 and fine 5600mhz memory read your manuals some of you guys run i7 i9 without watercooling the stupidity isn't with Intel it's you
Core Ultra Mega 9 285KF
After Amd athlon black never bought and nver will. Amd bugd
if funny how this guy milked the 50 series for like 150 episodes and now he just cant make any more videos cuz he already said everything
is the small nuclear power plant and the AC unit for your home in the package?
Intel CPU (and AMD GPU) have more issues than just performance, that matter to some people.
But AMD has proven, how important competition is. As has Intel in the dreary 4xx to 9xxx years.
Intel dont need new tevh then only to be stable and just a bit faster on single core then 14900k and thanks to AMD fail with zen5 crap cpus Intel would easilly surpass them
LOL. This is the secret? fail!!
Intel makes CPUs that are faster than the silicon can handle!
Thats whay they are working on new substrate technology
You trust Intel CPUs after having had the most recent TWO generations having unfixable issues they can only attempt to mitigate which wasn't even admitted to until later ng after they were already aware? Shouldn't Intel have to earn you trust back by proving their next generation will not also have issues? Or you'll just blindly accept and hope for the Chip's long-term health because it offers direct performance boost from the start - before degradation, if that is to continue to take place- ?
@@MikeNovelli hey pal. I am an AMD fan, but yes, we should trust Intel, because if Intel does not give us good CPUs, well, they will be f**ked. I'm not saying they will deliver insanely good CPUs, but considering how much they lost, I believe they wouldn't lie to us.
Bold of you to assume that 14th feb was actually a 'new' generation over 13th gen
Yeah I’m gonna go with the hope and thank them for the great performance, you might not realize it, but we need Intel to be bought by consumers just as we need AMD, only with both being in a good situation the consumer is in a good situation
Honestly 13th and 14th gen are both basically just 12th gen but juiced to holy hell with predictable results. Intel has been a victim of its own success in DUV multi patterning for a while now. Like the proverbial frog in a boiling pot, the chips were able to continue competing with EUV process chips on performance until they got boiled alive. Max single threaded performance has always been the bottleneck for most CPU workloads, and so far EUV produced chips have been unable to take that crown. Arrow Lake will be the first time an EUV chip from any company will offer a significant single threaded performance increase over Intel's top DUV chips, and they will be competitive on energy efficiency as well.
@@Simhero it's the shareholders who matter. We live in 2024
cam2 sucks. it takes everything that you love, but only allows you to put one module on a motherboard and it takes up a ton of space.
Instead of addressing timing issues with better technologies like fiber, we double down on asking how much ram do you really need.
could be easier to watercool tho
mb
DDR5 is way easier to overclock especially if u get the correct die. stop spreading lies, good luck overclocking bdie ddr4 without overheating it or buying ram fans
Just use Hynix DJR 2 DIMM I got mine to 4300mhz in gear 1 C17 tight timings
Does this one rust, smoke, and explode too??
Exciting times at Intel!
😂
Lmao this guy has no idea what he’s talking about
No one needs more than a 5600 for gaming
Yep. Have one with an rx 580 8gb sapphire nitro + with 16 gb ram 3200 mhz and am very satisfied with it for the games that I play.
@@wawaweewa9159 No one "needs" anything, but you sure are leaving A LOT of performance on the table if you run 5600.
RTS games like new CPUs
My 12900k with ddr4 already bottlenecks my 4070ti in cyberpunk in the city. So no
X4, Stellaris, rimworld, Tarkov etc
There are a ton of games that need something considerably faster than old 5600.
😂😂😂
Your information is bad, there is no difference between regular ddr5 and this dont spew false info
From my pov it took amd 10 yrs to dethrone intel, so it will take intel 10 yrs to catch up now. They were coasting off the success of having weak competition.
Intel never lost the spot if you know your way around BIOS.
@@jordan-mn6yy if somethin 1-3 generations in the pipe are actually good they will come back swinging.
Amd took 10 years to beat intel after it had been a joke for 10 years. Yes intel products are a joke, hot, power hungry but abote there or close enough gen for gen. If anything the worst thing that happened to intel is they pushed it just a bit to much and now they have a PR nightmare. This made more damage in the last couple of months then their lack of performance
well AMD had trash CPUs back in 2015, while now Intel is basically offering same perf as AMD, but they have inefficient cpus. As I see it if this next gen is good they will be back on track and the competition in the consumer space will be really fierce, might be difficult to say what cpu comes out on top
@@mastroitek I would say intel is trash, but it has enough mind share that it is in a better position then amd was. While performance wise it doesn't compare to AMD 10 year ago they can barely keep up with AMDs current gen and they burn up in trying that. At any price point you have better options from AMD. Or worse at half the price aka 7800x3d. There is no CPU that is worth recommending period for anyone building a new pc/upgrading their platform and that is before considering the burning up issue.
As for next gen, i doubt they will fair anybetter, the crap design of performance cores with punny cores is wreking havock on their designs
Instable Intel inside, no thanks!
You don't need this much bandwidth and it will be unnecessarily costly
You do not need it. I always love low latency and high bandwidth.
Arrow lake is gonna beat the 9000x3d chips. AMD is screwed.
If people think Intel suddenly fixed its problem I got a bridge to sell ya.
Sorry but Intel is not going to solve all problems from Gen 13 and 14 in Gen Ultra... Is only a trade refresh 🤷🏻♂️
Trying to convince me intel is back. Lol. Ill believe it in 1 to 2 years after time to evaluate degradation of arrow lake
I'd take this more seriously if you actually waited for all the AMD Windows/Driver/BIOS updates before writing off the 9000 series, the Windows update already made a nice difference, test again when the botched software side issues get corrected, Windows 11 itself gimped the AMD CPU's almost 10% for many years. Linux users have seen roughly a 20% increase between the 7000 and 9000 series. And can we also stop comparing a gaming CPU X3D to a consumer/production performance based CPU, compare it to what it's replacing, an X series CPU.