You know the drill, folks! Comment and "like" this video to appease the almighty algorithm! Also, as many of you know, BBC Worldwide announced some new Blu-Rays and Steelbooks today! The 50th Anniversary Collection and 'The Web of Fear'! If you purchase these items online through Zavvi, you can use the coupon code MRTARDIS10 to get 10% off your order and help support my channel! Thanks so much and here's to the next 57 years!
To me Eccleston’s Doctor is specifically the “post war” Doctor. The aftermath of everything the War Doctor was and did. Not only did it change the Doctor’s view of the universe and how he travels through it. To have him in the 50th would’ve gone against who 9 was. The War Doctor was the “Warrior” who existed solely to end the Time War and I like to think 9 exists to help heal and mend the damage that was done to it and how that impacts him.
Plus in his first episode he looks in the mirror and comments on his new face. Doesn't make sense if he'd been fighting in the time war for so long. You'd think he'd have seen his reflection at some point. I think McGann's Doctor should have been the one if not the War Doctor. He has a lot of depth in Big Finish and the right script could easily have made it work.
Yep, always agreed with this sentiment, though most of my argument simply comes from casting John Hurt as the Doctor. Most of the revival's miracles are accidental and done under creative constraint. A series of little miracles.
For the longest time I was convinced that 8 or 9 should have been in place of the War Doc, but now I'm glad that didn't happen. I would have wanted 8 or 9 just got the superficial stuff, 8 onscreen with a Dalek, 9 meeting himself etc, but now I can see that the War Doctor works a lot better in a story sense. Not to mention John Hurt is really good in it
I never caught on about how Russell and Steven portrayed death in different ways, but now that you mention it I can totally see it. Great analysis as always Mr TARDIS, love the rebranding of your channel as well.
I've thought a lot about this before but you managed to put it into words. I think the War Doctor fits much better into the story and manages to effectively fill in the gap between the TV Movie and 2005 Series and add more mystery to the Doctor and effectively explore what it means to be a hero like the Doctor which probably wouldn't have worked with the Ninth Doctor but the War Doctors arc as he battles with his morality and warlike mentality and sees what he will become in his future incarnations I think is much more fitting as he manages to over the course of the story accept himself as the Doctor
I mean, this is all assuming the script for the Ninth Doctor version is line-for-line the same as the one for the War Doctor. Which we know it isn't, because of the excerpt that Moffat released of the original barn scene. You make good points, but I also think it would have worked just as well (but in a totally different way) has the Ninth Doctor been invovled. Emotionally it makes sense, it brings NewWho full circle, the three Doctors together would have been great payoff and the scenes with Billie as the moment would be given an added sense of melancholy.
@ RTD has confirmed that he didn't intend that scene to mean that he was freshly regenerated. Plus, Moffat had it that Nine was a new incarnation in the original version of Day of the Doctor.
@ Nine smashing the mirrors in the TARDIS was Moffat's way of explaining the mirror scene, so that Nine wasn't freshly regenerated like RTD intended. Which was a fan theory before Moffat wrote that in. Not to mention Big Finish has established that Nine had loads of adventures before Rose. That's my entire point? I'm also well aware of Eccleston's reason for not appearing, but I don't see the relevance. I'm simply saying that it would still have worked if he'd appeared.
3 года назад+1
@@sabiro6747 it might have been an interesting meta textual reference with how Christopher Eccleston was treated behind the scenes and how he's often overlooked compared to his immediate successor to have him be reviled by subsequent Doctor Who, only for those future Doctors to accept and include him. That's not getting 8, especially considering The BBC forbid Moffat from having Paul McGann be The War Doctor. The Day of the Doctor really puts it into context how wrong it would feel, not just in the meta, but within the story, to have 9 or 8 treated with such derision and loathing. It would absolutely have felt wrong for the Tenth and Eleventh Doctors looking at him the way they did the War Doctor. While it would have been nice for Eccleston to appear, having a beloved Doctor whom fans care about like the Eighth or Ninth Doctors being genuinely despised by their other incarnations would have been a bad decision. IMO, I think it would have been hated if he returned. 9 is everything that War isn't. He's immediately charming, romantic, full of empathy. His defining moments are choosing not the press that button, not to pull that trigger. The Day of the Doctor portrays the War Doctor as the bad guy, 10 and 11 have this constant negative, sometimes hostile, attitude towards him. 9 represented his recovery, not the actual war itself. The Doctor wouldn't hate someone who tried so hard to atone for what he had done. The fans wouldn't be able to bring themselves to empathize with 10 and 11's hatred of the 9 had he been the one in the episode, and it would have been an unfair portrayal of the character. Especially considering that Doctor Who's audience shifted dramatically between 2010 - 2014. In conclusion, you're fucking dumb.
Day of the Doctor would definitely have been a very different story with the 9th Doctor in it. And his character would have had to be rewritten in large parts, as we only know him as this traumatised war surviver. It would also be at odds with the Doctor checking out his new look in the mirror in 'Rose'. RTD clearly intended to have him be freshly regenerated. The Rose prequel we got this spring shows nine was not ever intended as the one who pulled the trigger. I disagree about the 8th Doctor though, I think McGann could really pull of a version of him tainted by war. I found him to be really good with a bit of a dark tone in some of his big finish adventures.
I would hope that if 9 had returned it would have been structured a little differently. You're right, they couldn't treat 9 like that. That would have to change. Whether such a story would be better or worse, can't really say. But it would definitely need to be different if it was to work at all.
@@DanisThoughts If its the one I think then The Fan Show interview with Moffat. In it he says something along the lines of "I suggested using an Older Doctor (Almost certainly McGann) but the BBC said not unresonably that they were expecting the Olympics."
I'm sorry but this is completely wrong, The Ninth Doctor WOULD work, and here's why. Firstly, the role that the War Doctor played in The Day of The Doctor should have acted as a way of completing the character arc of The Ninth Doctor, because I believe that series 1 of the revival is the second half of Ninth Doctor's character arc. If he had been on the 50th anniversary, we would have been afforded a chance to see a side of The Ninth Doctor that had not been seen before, and that would explain why The Doctors treat him in the way that they do, and also why the Th Doctors treat him like a secret. In The Day of The Doctor, this incarnation would, with the help of his future selves would transition and begin to evolve into the character we know in Series 1. This works because The Ninth Doctor doesn't remember the events of The Day of The Doctor but discovers that Gallifrey was destroyed which makes him believe he caused it, and that's why he has some anger left inside him, anger to which he would let go once he meets and connects with Rose in series 1. As an audience member, we can still love the Ninth Doctor because we know thanks to the 50th anniversary, that The Ninth Doctor actually saved Gallifrey rather than burn it. The reason why The Ninth Doctor would work with the Tenth and Eleventh is that they don't realize yet that they will save Gallifrey and still have the memories that the Ninth Doctor will have, they don't remember that they have saved Gallifrey because the timestream is out of sync. In terms of being unwanted, it would work here because the personality War Doctor had is basically the personality the Ninth Doctor would have in the Time War. Also, The Tenth Doctor mentions The Metta-Crisis Doctor was born in battle, full of Blood, anger, and revenge, and then compares him to The Ninth Doctor, which I believe indicates the Eighth Doctor regenerates in the Ninth during Battle, AKA The Time war, and thanks to the sisterhood of Kahn The Ninth Doctor is full of Blood, Anger, and Revenge when he first comes into existence, but those very emotions change into self-loathing, and doubt, which basically says The Ninth Doctor stars as a vengeful soldier but transitions into the personality of The War Doctor that then evolves into the Ninth Doctor we see in series 1 who then evolves again into the personality we see at the end of Parting of The Ways. Now the reason The Ninth Doctor does not age is due to the fact that the Tenth Doctor states that he doesn't age or at least ages in the same way we humans do. So in conclusion, The Ninth Doctor WOULD work and The War Doctor is an insult to The Ninth Doctor because he replaced him. I'm sorry to anyone who disagrees with me but the facts are there, and it's not fair that the Ninth Doctor is sidelined in a story that should have been about him. I mean no disrespect to the real-life individuals associated with the making of the special, it's just upsetting to a fan of The Ninth Doctor to see him sidelined time and time again, even though he's the most underrated, and underappreciated incarnation ever. Plus it gets even worse when you see people trying to wrongly justify why The Ninth Doctor is sidelined in a story that should have been about him. Anyway, take my opinion with a pinch of salt, this is just why The Ninth Doctor should have been the main focus of the 50th Anniversary and the main character arcs should have evolved him, alongside Tennant and Smith.
@@Noah-id7lu The difference is that Waters of Mars constantly portrayed the Doctor as the one in the wrong. He started as someone who is meddling in things he really shouldn't be, he shouldn't be with these people. You're supposed to be screaming at him to leave, but hate it when he finally does. When he re-enters the base, he's not the protagonist anymore. You're not supposed to be rooting for the Doctor in that episode. Heaven Sent was an entire episode about the Doctor's recovery from depression, it's not so subtle with the metaphors of breaking down walls. Hell Bent kinda reverses this entirely. Heaven Sent is widely regarded as one of the best episodes of New Who, and Hell Bent made it completely redundant. If The Doctor went straight from the Trap Street to Gallifrey, the story wouldn't need much changing. The Doctor is also not portrayed as the bad guy. Rassilon is a known villain in the show, so there's not that same feeling of dread we got when he threatened him compared to when he threatened Captain Brooke. The Doctor's intentions in Hell Bent were almost noble, he only wanted to save his friend, so the audience only knows it's wrong because The General and Me told them that it was. AND the episode doesn't try and fix these mistakes. Waters of Mars immediately changed pace when the Doctor realized he was wrong, but it couldn't be reversed. Hell Bent could have been reversed, except the 'resolution' of the episode makes the entire situation worse. Series 9's entire theme with Clara is that she's irresponsible and cannot give up travelling in the Tardis, you expect me to believe that she'll eventually go back to Gallifrey? That everything will be fine? No. Face the Raven was literally Clara facing up to this life-style, but Hell Bent makes it so she'll never have to face it ever again because she's virtually immortal and doesn't have The Doctor to answer to anymore.
@@Noah-id7lu The 10th Doctor behaving the way he did in Waters of Mars felt natural and believeable. He's a time traveller. He's been on so many adventures, defeated monsters and seen the loss of many lives. Plus all his people are dead so he thinks he has the laws of time at his command. Therefore It makes sense for someone like him to develop into this man with a god complex who thinks he is doing the right thing because of who he is and his reputation. The 12th Doctor shooting a person is breaking the character for one reason. No matter how far the Doctor goes, he never uses guns. He has made that point throughout the entire show.
The Ninth Doctor pretty much had a perfect run of stories showing the effects of his character changed throughout the Time War. I do hope that Big Finish understands this and doesn't go NINTH DOCTOR AND VOORDS or NINTH DOCTOR BOXSET 67 DALEKS IN EVERY BOXSET sort of route.
From a fan stand-point, I think it would have been hated if he returned. The 9th Doctor is everything that the War Doctor isn't. He's immediately charming, romantic, full of empathy. His defining moments are choosing not the press that button, not to pull that trigger. Day of the Doctor portrays the War Doctor as the bad guy, 10 and 11 have this constant negative, sometimes hostile, attitude towards him. The 9th Doctor represented his recovery, not the actual war itself. The Doctor wouldn't hate someone who tried so hard to atone for what he had done. The fans wouldn't be able to bring themselves to empathize with 10 and 11's hatred of the 9th Doctor had he been the one in the episode, and it would have been an unfair portrayal of the character. Especially considering that Doctor Who's audience shifted dramatically between 2010 - 2014.
10:20 - 11:00 That's a really good point, and one I can't believe no one else considered when they mention that they don't like the War Doctor, and wish it was Eccelston or McGann.
Still think the 8th Doctor should have been there instead of the War Doctor, though the actor did a wonderful job with the material (even if I still don't like the concept of a "secret" doctor who fought in the Time War when it was already established that it was the 8th).
This is a very strong argument, and I do ultimately agree that the Ninth not being in Day of the Doctor was a good choice. I still kind of wish McGann had more love in the television medium.
I don’t think it would’ve been too much of a stretch to imagine Paul mcgann as the ‘war doctor’. Would’ve definitely held his own in day of the doctor. Glad we got John hurt tho
I was thinking a while ago about how it might have been an interesting meta textual reference with how Christopher Eccleston was treated behind the scenes and how he's often overlooked compared to his immediate successor to have him be reviled by subsequent Doctor Who, only for those future Doctors to accept and include him. This episode really puts it into context how wrong it would feel, not just in the meta, but within the story, to have the Ninth Doctor treated with such derision and loathing. It would absolutely have felt wrong for the Tenth and Eleventh Doctors looking at him the way they did the War Doctor. While it would have been nice for Eccleston to appear, I absolutely agree that having a beloved Doctor whom fans care about like the Eighth or Ninth Doctors being genuinely despised by their other incarnations would have been a bad decision.
I’m really hyped to be able to watch the reviewing of every Cyberman episode by release! This video essay was great and let’s all hope Eccleston will return!
5:45 Sorry but that’s not the case. Clara eventually came back to Gallifrey to die (she has a glass avatar, she’s dead). Actually, Amy and Rory also died permanently, didn’t they? They got sent back in time and died. Plus, River got her send off at Name of the Doctor and Husbands of River Song. Danny is dead, the Brigadier is still dead, one of the Osgoods is dead. The list goes on and on.
But the 9th Doctor isn't the Doctor that committed the genocide. In "Rose" when he exits his TARDIS, he sees his reflection and makes a remark as if this is the first time he's seen his own face. The implication being that he'd just recently regenerated. Meaning it would have had to have been the 8th Doctor that destroyed Gallifrey.
Besides. I can't really see McGann committing Genocide. Eccleston maybe but not McGann, at least based on that movie. John Hurt did such a wonderful job in the role. A great actor doing a great role.
Actually I believe John Hurst made a much better War Doctor then the ninth doctor because the Ninth Doctor was Marquez not so best one he was saying long-suffering doctor because of the war and that's more of the PTSD doctor post-traumatic stress disorder. Stop the rodent Christopher Eccleston made best so yeah him being a password after lip and it better title
Nice video. One thing I disagree with was that there's nothing wrong with Eccleston and McGann appearing alongside John Hurt. They can still appear in the special without being the one to commit genocide.
Y'know, I've long held that the War Doctor was an unnecessary if nonetheless welcome retcon. You've put up a solid argument for the opposition. Thank you for your service. P.S. An additional thank you for that Five(ish) Doctors clip. Always glad to see that getting love.
After watching all of Christopher Eccleston`s episodes as the Doctor i think we was one of the best in terms of comedy and humor, he shouldve been in the Day of the Doctor but thus he was apparently "Not Interested" to play the part therefore John Hurt took the offer, sadly he is dead now :(
Good video. Interesting points. But I have a question, would The Day of the Doctor worked with both John Hurt & Christopher Eccleston as War Doctor & 9th Doctor?
My question is why did the 9th doctor make it happen what was the motivation behind it wasn't just doing it to get attention was he acting like a spoiled kid oh that's our son hidden meaning behind it Scott moist?
Yeah..the death thing got really annoying.. You can tell that Moffat era was a lot more lighthearted.. But..I do agree with your argument that Nine shouldn’t have appeared. I don't think he would have even fitted the more comedic tone of Day
i don't really agree with you much, creating faulty characters, knowing them and then putting them in unconventional situations is, I believe, how you make and interesting and good story, having the doctors look at their past incarnation with dreadfulness is not really a bad idea, they barely did that in the actual episode which is a shame, I do agree that the doctor burning children is quite unpleasant, which is why I don't really like the time war as a whole, but honestly, having Eccleston or McGann instead of Hurt, wouldn't have changed anything
I really didn't like RTD's take on regeneration in End of Time. with the hindsight that it was his penultimate incarnation it has a little weight, but... I dunno, that scene with Wilf just felt too forced and almost out of character. Most every other doctor faced their regeneration with dignity, while Ten (or rather, 12) spends so much time bleating about it. That said, it does feed into Ten's vanity issues and messianic complex. But yeah I always felt Eccleston's Doctor shouldn't have been there at the end of the Time War; apart from anything else, it's pretty clear from the outset that he's only just regenerated in "Rose" ["Coulda been worse, but look at the ears!"], which would infer that McGann's Doctor did the deed. But then we bring Big Finish into the equation, with almost 20 years of Eighth Doctor stories which admittedly have the Doctor committing some pretty dark acts, but still retaining that hopefulness. Adding a new incarnation in between was the logical step; it doesn't diminish McGann or Eccleston. Besides, it was all worth it for the reveal at the end of Name of the Doctor. "What I did, I did without choice. In the name of peace and sanity." Hearing that voice, gave me chills.
good essay. I wonder if you think the 9th Doctor would have fit in with the story along side the War Doctor? While his function in the narrative might have been too similar to number 10, i think Eccleston could have been a very raw performance meeting the War Doctor, triggering PTSD?
The (Eighth) Doctor look down seeing time and space burning. Stars and planets burning throughout time.....earth splinter into a billion pieces and fired at the skull of the Nightmare child. The Doctor walk over to the Moment gripped the brass handle and turned it. There was a big bright light and he was falling through time the screams of the Time Lords and the Daleks ringing in his ears. The Doctor embraced death but death wouldn't come so easily. Instead he saw a blue streak appear along side him which then turn into a box. The Doctor awoke on the floor of the Tardis
@@MrTARDIS Ahh okay. Also i've done a 57th Anniversary video if you're interested which took inspiration from a video of yours, but credit has been given ruclips.net/video/tsk-WKjW9sw/видео.html
8:21 The problem with this logic is what the hell was the alternative? Even if the Daleks destroyed themselves you still have all of those Time War nasties that weren't dealt with.
9:06 apparently Moffat didn't read or listen to anything past the TV movie and if it bothered him so much he could have used NOTD to develop 8 into someone who would fight
If you're planning on making more video essays, I have a suggestion for a potential one: When is changing the canon acceptable and how far should one go? (examples: 'The Deadly Assassin', 'The Timeless Children', etc.)
That makes a lot of sense!! Thank you very much 🌹It is just very sad that the ninth doctor had to carry all the weight of the war doctor.. When he said " i made it happen" that gives us an insight to how he think that was his fault his people died.. In the end he was just a broken solider suffering from ptsd.. 💔
This video is absolutely brilliant! It’s made me consider day of the Doctor definitely as I had always wanted the 8th as I always imagined him doing it but this has made me reflect, thank you! Your really still one of the best dr who RUclipsrs
I agree Eccelston shouldn't have been there in the role John Hurt ended up playing, but had they wanted him there in addition to the rest that would have been good. Sadly that wasn't their intention.
Good video but I've gotta disagree here. If Eccleston had agreed to come back the thing to do would have just been to adjust the dynamic so the pain associated with him is clear but without active antagonism. Given that Rose traveled with nine first ten would likely have some level of nostalgia for his old face mixed in with the negative feelings. Also I disagree with Moffat that eight pushing the button wouldn't work. McGann has a huge range and was in universe the Doctor for a very long time.
@ I don't disagree with the War Doctor being a good idea and it probably was the best. Also I don't really trust Eccleston whose had a lot of negative experiences around the show to be totally objective about the script as you've pointed out. Considering the countless different ways eight behaves in Big Finish I don't think much could be said to be out of character for him and I doubt the BBC would have cared enough to forbid his usage beyond the minisode. Like I said I think having the war Doctor was the best thing I just feel the other options would have been viable.
Man, I stopped watching you for awhile, due to losing temporary interest in Doctor who (Sorry, I’ve been really into The War Of The Worlds recently - I even have a project for it possibly coming, now that I’m done with high school) - but anyways, yea. :v Doctor Who.. a lot has happened a lot this year. I can’t wait for the new special, and I’m one of the few who loved Series 12- so yes. I can’t believe it’s nearly been a year since Dalekcember. W O W ~ Anyways yea, I need to catch up with the whole Time lord victorious stuff. Ima immediately assume, it’s leading into the birth of The Valeyard. :v Maybe that’s how this will all end. First impressions though-
I just love that day of the doctor makes every episode from rose to day of a what if scenario, we just saw what the war doctor is seeing with the moment. It basicly makes the first 7 seasons one big connected story.
I disagree that nine won't work in Day of the Doctor! I was never a fan of how Moffat treated death. But you made a great video and backed up your argument. Although I don't think the audience would mind the other doctors feeling horrified by because Nine himself was horrified by his action in the time war! So themeaticly it makes sense. However I am in a way glad he didn't return, because we won't of had John Hurt War Doctor otherwise. And thanks to Big Finish is up there with Nine as one of my favourite doctors
ScottyDoc again I disagree, true Christopher Ecclestone acting is usually at its best when he’s doing it seriously, but he can do lighthearted as well. Look at Rose and Boom town.
ScottyDoc I can understand and agree on a level on your argument on Nine’s Character arc, however I think that’s still applies with the War Doctor, and is more a criticism with Day of the Doctors. As for continuity seeing as Rose has him act like this is new to him.... okay that’s true hah
Well the Time War was a canon breaking piece of shit to start with so my preference for the anniversary would have been Sylvester McCoy to wake up from his mushroom trip and the real Whoniverse to resume but if you HAVE to do something to save Gallifrey whilst maintaining the aberrant nWho timeline. I'd have made the whole epsiode a McGaan-Jayston team up where the Doctor's wide eyed hopeful boy teams up with all his bitterness and resentment for the sake of the universe eventually merging into the 9th incarnation as a new central nexus point for the universe to replace Gallifrey. Not only would this give the 2 most badly treated Doctors a chance to shine but it would also explain why the universe literally revolves round the Doctor in nWho.
I agree with the idea, but I feel like the special was written around having a new doctor. I doubt these would have been major problems if they knew ahead of time they were getting 9.
@ Paul McGann would have made it work. If Russell T Davis was the showrunner for the 50th anniversary episode the 8th Doctor would have been the War Doctor. Buy or order Doctor Who and The Time War by Russell T Davis
3 года назад
@@leejohnstone9047 8 was too full of life & it would've betrayed his character.
You know the drill, folks! Comment and "like" this video to appease the almighty algorithm!
Also, as many of you know, BBC Worldwide announced some new Blu-Rays and Steelbooks today! The 50th Anniversary Collection and 'The Web of Fear'!
If you purchase these items online through Zavvi, you can use the coupon code MRTARDIS10 to get 10% off your order and help support my channel!
Thanks so much and here's to the next 57 years!
You need to read Doctor Who and The Time War by Russell T Davis
Does the steelbook of Day of the Doctor include the 3D version?
@@mikenash7049 I don't think it does. There's no mention of a 3D-Blu Ray format anywhere that I can see.
Strictly 2D, it would appear.
Hope it includes Doctor Who and The Time War audio drama
To me Eccleston’s Doctor is specifically the “post war” Doctor. The aftermath of everything the War Doctor was and did. Not only did it change the Doctor’s view of the universe and how he travels through it. To have him in the 50th would’ve gone against who 9 was. The War Doctor was the “Warrior” who existed solely to end the Time War and I like to think 9 exists to help heal and mend the damage that was done to it and how that impacts him.
Maybe ninth should be named the survivor doctor.
Plus in his first episode he looks in the mirror and comments on his new face. Doesn't make sense if he'd been fighting in the time war for so long. You'd think he'd have seen his reflection at some point. I think McGann's Doctor should have been the one if not the War Doctor. He has a lot of depth in Big Finish and the right script could easily have made it work.
13:43 that description from Moffat always melts my heart. The man certainly has a way with words
Mr TARDIS: Why the 9th doctor shouldn't have been in "day of the doctor"
Me: Why the 8th doctor should have been in "day of the doctor"
Yep, always agreed with this sentiment, though most of my argument simply comes from casting John Hurt as the Doctor. Most of the revival's miracles are accidental and done under creative constraint. A series of little miracles.
For the longest time I was convinced that 8 or 9 should have been in place of the War Doc, but now I'm glad that didn't happen. I would have wanted 8 or 9 just got the superficial stuff, 8 onscreen with a Dalek, 9 meeting himself etc, but now I can see that the War Doctor works a lot better in a story sense. Not to mention John Hurt is really good in it
I never caught on about how Russell and Steven portrayed death in different ways, but now that you mention it I can totally see it. Great analysis as always Mr TARDIS, love the rebranding of your channel as well.
Clive: And he has one constant companion
Rose: Who’s that?
Clive: The Daniels Family of Southampton...
brilliant reference
What's that a reference to?
Eccleston: And for my next trick..
MrTardis: Wait a minute, you can't do that
Ahh you’ve redecorated the channel
I really like it
I've thought a lot about this before but you managed to put it into words. I think the War Doctor fits much better into the story and manages to effectively fill in the gap between the TV Movie and 2005 Series and add more mystery to the Doctor and effectively explore what it means to be a hero like the Doctor which probably wouldn't have worked with the Ninth Doctor but the War Doctors arc as he battles with his morality and warlike mentality and sees what he will become in his future incarnations I think is much more fitting as he manages to over the course of the story accept himself as the Doctor
I mean, this is all assuming the script for the Ninth Doctor version is line-for-line the same as the one for the War Doctor. Which we know it isn't, because of the excerpt that Moffat released of the original barn scene.
You make good points, but I also think it would have worked just as well (but in a totally different way) has the Ninth Doctor been invovled. Emotionally it makes sense, it brings NewWho full circle, the three Doctors together would have been great payoff and the scenes with Billie as the moment would be given an added sense of melancholy.
@ RTD has confirmed that he didn't intend that scene to mean that he was freshly regenerated.
Plus, Moffat had it that Nine was a new incarnation in the original version of Day of the Doctor.
@ Nine smashing the mirrors in the TARDIS was Moffat's way of explaining the mirror scene, so that Nine wasn't freshly regenerated like RTD intended. Which was a fan theory before Moffat wrote that in. Not to mention Big Finish has established that Nine had loads of adventures before Rose. That's my entire point?
I'm also well aware of Eccleston's reason for not appearing, but I don't see the relevance. I'm simply saying that it would still have worked if he'd appeared.
@@sabiro6747 it might have been an interesting meta textual reference with how Christopher Eccleston was treated behind the scenes and how he's often overlooked compared to his immediate successor to have him be reviled by subsequent Doctor Who, only for those future Doctors to accept and include him. That's not getting 8, especially considering The BBC forbid Moffat from having Paul McGann be The War Doctor.
The Day of the Doctor really puts it into context how wrong it would feel, not just in the meta, but within the story, to have 9 or 8 treated with such derision and loathing. It would absolutely have felt wrong for the Tenth and Eleventh Doctors looking at him the way they did the War Doctor. While it would have been nice for Eccleston to appear, having a beloved Doctor whom fans care about like the Eighth or Ninth Doctors being genuinely despised by their other incarnations would have been a bad decision.
IMO, I think it would have been hated if he returned.
9 is everything that War isn't. He's immediately charming, romantic, full of empathy. His defining moments are choosing not the press that button, not to pull that trigger.
The Day of the Doctor portrays the War Doctor as the bad guy, 10 and 11 have this constant negative, sometimes hostile, attitude towards him. 9 represented his recovery, not the actual war itself. The Doctor wouldn't hate someone who tried so hard to atone for what he had done.
The fans wouldn't be able to bring themselves to empathize with 10 and 11's hatred of the 9 had he been the one in the episode, and it would have been an unfair portrayal of the character. Especially considering that Doctor Who's audience shifted dramatically between 2010 - 2014.
In conclusion, you're fucking dumb.
Day of the Doctor would definitely have been a very different story with the 9th Doctor in it. And his character would have had to be rewritten in large parts, as we only know him as this traumatised war surviver. It would also be at odds with the Doctor checking out his new look in the mirror in 'Rose'. RTD clearly intended to have him be freshly regenerated. The Rose prequel we got this spring shows nine was not ever intended as the one who pulled the trigger.
I disagree about the 8th Doctor though, I think McGann could really pull of a version of him tainted by war. I found him to be really good with a bit of a dark tone in some of his big finish adventures.
This was a nice surprise. I wasn’t expecting this but I do agree. Eccleston would not have worked in the special.
I would hope that if 9 had returned it would have been structured a little differently. You're right, they couldn't treat 9 like that. That would have to change. Whether such a story would be better or worse, can't really say. But it would definitely need to be different if it was to work at all.
I also loved how the War Doctor in his demeanor and wit when interacting with 10 and 11 was like the old series Doctors personified.
Also...actually Moffat admitted in a interview that he did want McGann after Ecclestone said no but the BBC refused it.
source? i remember hearing that he didn't wan't McGann to be the time war doctor because he was a romantic in the movie and would feel out of place
@@DanisThoughts If its the one I think then The Fan Show interview with Moffat.
In it he says something along the lines of "I suggested using an Older Doctor (Almost certainly McGann) but the BBC said not unresonably that they were expecting the Olympics."
"Killed [Blon's] entire family."
The Sarah Jane Adventures: Am I a joke to you?
I'm sorry but this is completely wrong, The Ninth Doctor WOULD work, and here's why. Firstly, the role that the War Doctor played in The Day of The Doctor should have acted as a way of completing the character arc of The Ninth Doctor, because I believe that series 1 of the revival is the second half of Ninth Doctor's character arc. If he had been on the 50th anniversary, we would have been afforded a chance to see a side of The Ninth Doctor that had not been seen before, and that would explain why The Doctors treat him in the way that they do, and also why the Th Doctors treat him like a secret. In The Day of The Doctor, this incarnation would, with the help of his future selves would transition and begin to evolve into the character we know in Series 1. This works because The Ninth Doctor doesn't remember the events of The Day of The Doctor but discovers that Gallifrey was destroyed which makes him believe he caused it, and that's why he has some anger left inside him, anger to which he would let go once he meets and connects with Rose in series 1. As an audience member, we can still love the Ninth Doctor because we know thanks to the 50th anniversary, that The Ninth Doctor actually saved Gallifrey rather than burn it. The reason why The Ninth Doctor would work with the Tenth and Eleventh is that they don't realize yet that they will save Gallifrey and still have the memories that the Ninth Doctor will have, they don't remember that they have saved Gallifrey because the timestream is out of sync. In terms of being unwanted, it would work here because the personality War Doctor had is basically the personality the Ninth Doctor would have in the Time War. Also, The Tenth Doctor mentions The Metta-Crisis Doctor was born in battle, full of Blood, anger, and revenge, and then compares him to The Ninth Doctor, which I believe indicates the Eighth Doctor regenerates in the Ninth during Battle, AKA The Time war, and thanks to the sisterhood of Kahn The Ninth Doctor is full of Blood, Anger, and Revenge when he first comes into existence, but those very emotions change into self-loathing, and doubt, which basically says The Ninth Doctor stars as a vengeful soldier but transitions into the personality of The War Doctor that then evolves into the Ninth Doctor we see in series 1 who then evolves again into the personality we see at the end of Parting of The Ways. Now the reason The Ninth Doctor does not age is due to the fact that the Tenth Doctor states that he doesn't age or at least ages in the same way we humans do. So in conclusion, The Ninth Doctor WOULD work and The War Doctor is an insult to The Ninth Doctor because he replaced him. I'm sorry to anyone who disagrees with me but the facts are there, and it's not fair that the Ninth Doctor is sidelined in a story that should have been about him. I mean no disrespect to the real-life individuals associated with the making of the special, it's just upsetting to a fan of The Ninth Doctor to see him sidelined time and time again, even though he's the most underrated, and underappreciated incarnation ever. Plus it gets even worse when you see people trying to wrongly justify why The Ninth Doctor is sidelined in a story that should have been about him. Anyway, take my opinion with a pinch of salt, this is just why The Ninth Doctor should have been the main focus of the 50th Anniversary and the main character arcs should have evolved him, alongside Tennant and Smith.
That Moffat quote XD
Hell Bent really ruined that one
@@Noah-id7lu The difference is that Waters of Mars constantly portrayed the Doctor as the one in the wrong. He started as someone who is meddling in things he really shouldn't be, he shouldn't be with these people. You're supposed to be screaming at him to leave, but hate it when he finally does. When he re-enters the base, he's not the protagonist anymore. You're not supposed to be rooting for the Doctor in that episode.
Heaven Sent was an entire episode about the Doctor's recovery from depression, it's not so subtle with the metaphors of breaking down walls. Hell Bent kinda reverses this entirely. Heaven Sent is widely regarded as one of the best episodes of New Who, and Hell Bent made it completely redundant. If The Doctor went straight from the Trap Street to Gallifrey, the story wouldn't need much changing.
The Doctor is also not portrayed as the bad guy. Rassilon is a known villain in the show, so there's not that same feeling of dread we got when he threatened him compared to when he threatened Captain Brooke. The Doctor's intentions in Hell Bent were almost noble, he only wanted to save his friend, so the audience only knows it's wrong because The General and Me told them that it was.
AND the episode doesn't try and fix these mistakes. Waters of Mars immediately changed pace when the Doctor realized he was wrong, but it couldn't be reversed. Hell Bent could have been reversed, except the 'resolution' of the episode makes the entire situation worse. Series 9's entire theme with Clara is that she's irresponsible and cannot give up travelling in the Tardis, you expect me to believe that she'll eventually go back to Gallifrey? That everything will be fine? No. Face the Raven was literally Clara facing up to this life-style, but Hell Bent makes it so she'll never have to face it ever again because she's virtually immortal and doesn't have The Doctor to answer to anymore.
@@Noah-id7lu The 10th Doctor behaving the way he did in Waters of Mars felt natural and believeable. He's a time traveller. He's been on so many adventures, defeated monsters and seen the loss of many lives. Plus all his people are dead so he thinks he has the laws of time at his command. Therefore It makes sense for someone like him to develop into this man with a god complex who thinks he is doing the right thing because of who he is and his reputation. The 12th Doctor shooting a person is breaking the character for one reason. No matter how far the Doctor goes, he never uses guns. He has made that point throughout the entire show.
The Ninth Doctor pretty much had a perfect run of stories showing the effects of his character changed throughout the Time War. I do hope that Big Finish understands this and doesn't go NINTH DOCTOR AND VOORDS or NINTH DOCTOR BOXSET 67 DALEKS IN EVERY BOXSET sort of route.
From a fan stand-point, I think it would have been hated if he returned.
The 9th Doctor is everything that the War Doctor isn't. He's immediately charming, romantic, full of empathy. His defining moments are choosing not the press that button, not to pull that trigger.
Day of the Doctor portrays the War Doctor as the bad guy, 10 and 11 have this constant negative, sometimes hostile, attitude towards him. The 9th Doctor represented his recovery, not the actual war itself. The Doctor wouldn't hate someone who tried so hard to atone for what he had done.
The fans wouldn't be able to bring themselves to empathize with 10 and 11's hatred of the 9th Doctor had he been the one in the episode, and it would have been an unfair portrayal of the character. Especially considering that Doctor Who's audience shifted dramatically between 2010 - 2014.
10:20 - 11:00 That's a really good point, and one I can't believe no one else considered when they mention that they don't like the War Doctor, and wish it was Eccelston or McGann.
Still think the 8th Doctor should have been there instead of the War Doctor, though the actor did a wonderful job with the material (even if I still don't like the concept of a "secret" doctor who fought in the Time War when it was already established that it was the 8th).
That Moffat quote was reused in one of the series 10 trailers! FANTASTIC
This is a very strong argument, and I do ultimately agree that the Ninth not being in Day of the Doctor was a good choice.
I still kind of wish McGann had more love in the television medium.
I don’t think it would’ve been too much of a stretch to imagine Paul mcgann as the ‘war doctor’. Would’ve definitely held his own in day of the doctor. Glad we got John hurt tho
Easy solution here. Should have gotten Paul McGann back.
The BBC vetoed it. Also, like Nine, it wouldn't work.
I was thinking a while ago about how it might have been an interesting meta textual reference with how Christopher Eccleston was treated behind the scenes and how he's often overlooked compared to his immediate successor to have him be reviled by subsequent Doctor Who, only for those future Doctors to accept and include him.
This episode really puts it into context how wrong it would feel, not just in the meta, but within the story, to have the Ninth Doctor treated with such derision and loathing. It would absolutely have felt wrong for the Tenth and Eleventh Doctors looking at him the way they did the War Doctor. While it would have been nice for Eccleston to appear, I absolutely agree that having a beloved Doctor whom fans care about like the Eighth or Ninth Doctors being genuinely despised by their other incarnations would have been a bad decision.
Yeah, I agree, I've never seen Eccleston as the Doctor who fought in the time war.
I’m really hyped to be able to watch the reviewing of every Cyberman episode by release! This video essay was great and let’s all hope Eccleston will return!
Yes yes yes I was hoping you'd do a cyberman story month this year after doing a dalek story month last year :)
5:45
Sorry but that’s not the case. Clara eventually came back to Gallifrey to die (she has a glass avatar, she’s dead). Actually, Amy and Rory also died permanently, didn’t they? They got sent back in time and died. Plus, River got her send off at Name of the Doctor and Husbands of River Song. Danny is dead, the Brigadier is still dead, one of the Osgoods is dead. The list goes on and on.
But the 9th Doctor isn't the Doctor that committed the genocide. In "Rose" when he exits his TARDIS, he sees his reflection and makes a remark as if this is the first time he's seen his own face. The implication being that he'd just recently regenerated. Meaning it would have had to have been the 8th Doctor that destroyed Gallifrey.
Besides. I can't really see McGann committing Genocide. Eccleston maybe but not McGann, at least based on that movie.
John Hurt did such a wonderful job in the role. A great actor doing a great role.
Actually I believe John Hurst made a much better War Doctor then the ninth doctor because the Ninth Doctor was Marquez not so best one he was saying long-suffering doctor because of the war and that's more of the PTSD doctor post-traumatic stress disorder. Stop the rodent Christopher Eccleston made best so yeah him being a password after lip and it better title
Nice video. One thing I disagree with was that there's nothing wrong with Eccleston and McGann appearing alongside John Hurt. They can still appear in the special without being the one to commit genocide.
Y'know, I've long held that the War Doctor was an unnecessary if nonetheless welcome retcon. You've put up a solid argument for the opposition. Thank you for your service.
P.S. An additional thank you for that Five(ish) Doctors clip. Always glad to see that getting love.
After watching all of Christopher Eccleston`s episodes as the Doctor i think we was one of the best in terms of comedy and humor, he shouldve been in the Day of the Doctor but thus he was apparently "Not Interested" to play the part therefore John Hurt took the offer, sadly he is dead now :(
Good video. Interesting points. But I have a question, would The Day of the Doctor worked with both John Hurt & Christopher Eccleston as War Doctor & 9th Doctor?
Still though, why not have John Hurt and Eccleston? Have the three doctors look at Hurt with "dread"
Wait is the 3rd doctor scarecrow insult a jab at the way he was caught in comics before Pertwee started? Or am I readin into it too much
I think it's an in joke, after his 4 years on Doctor Who, Jon Pertwee starred in Worzel Gummidge as a talking scarecrow.
yea, you might be reading too much into it, I think Pertwee says that because of how Troughton's doctor dresses very unkempt
My question is why did the 9th doctor make it happen what was the motivation behind it wasn't just doing it to get attention was he acting like a spoiled kid oh that's our son hidden meaning behind it Scott moist?
Feels like they won’t do a 8th for series cause Paul’s American
I totally agree. The trade off of the war doctor and 9 returning is just not worth thinking about.
I love the way Russel T Davis gave the doctors a dark streak, and Mofat used rose as a reason to make the doctor learn to be better
Yeah..the death thing got really annoying..
You can tell that Moffat era was a lot more lighthearted..
But..I do agree with your argument that Nine shouldn’t have appeared. I don't think he would have even fitted the more comedic tone of Day
i don't really agree with you much, creating faulty characters, knowing them and then putting them in unconventional situations is, I believe, how you make and interesting and good story, having the doctors look at their past incarnation with dreadfulness is not really a bad idea, they barely did that in the actual episode which is a shame, I do agree that the doctor burning children is quite unpleasant, which is why I don't really like the time war as a whole, but honestly, having Eccleston or McGann instead of Hurt, wouldn't have changed anything
Happy to help out with that mate! Very good video to boot, never looked at it that way either! Pronunciation was spot on too 😉
They should of done a dr who time war episode with a dark war dr vs the 8th or 9th Doctor
I really didn't like RTD's take on regeneration in End of Time. with the hindsight that it was his penultimate incarnation it has a little weight, but... I dunno, that scene with Wilf just felt too forced and almost out of character. Most every other doctor faced their regeneration with dignity, while Ten (or rather, 12) spends so much time bleating about it. That said, it does feed into Ten's vanity issues and messianic complex.
But yeah I always felt Eccleston's Doctor shouldn't have been there at the end of the Time War; apart from anything else, it's pretty clear from the outset that he's only just regenerated in "Rose" ["Coulda been worse, but look at the ears!"], which would infer that McGann's Doctor did the deed. But then we bring Big Finish into the equation, with almost 20 years of Eighth Doctor stories which admittedly have the Doctor committing some pretty dark acts, but still retaining that hopefulness.
Adding a new incarnation in between was the logical step; it doesn't diminish McGann or Eccleston.
Besides, it was all worth it for the reveal at the end of Name of the Doctor.
"What I did, I did without choice. In the name of peace and sanity."
Hearing that voice, gave me chills.
good essay. I wonder if you think the 9th Doctor would have fit in with the story along side the War Doctor? While his function in the narrative might have been too similar to number 10, i think Eccleston could have been a very raw performance meeting the War Doctor, triggering PTSD?
That Moffat quote was utterly amazing at getting EVERY SINGLE THING IT SAID WRONG
The (Eighth) Doctor look down seeing time and space burning. Stars and planets burning throughout time.....earth splinter into a billion pieces and fired at the skull of the Nightmare child. The Doctor walk over to the Moment gripped the brass handle and turned it. There was a big bright light and he was falling through time the screams of the Time Lords and the Daleks ringing in his ears. The Doctor embraced death but death wouldn't come so easily. Instead he saw a blue streak appear along side him which then turn into a box. The Doctor awoke on the floor of the Tardis
Ngl, that whole death contrast from both writers is kinda mind-blowing.
Great video once again. Also a question about CyberCember, will it start on December 1st
Prologue on November 30th. First review on December 1st up until December 25th.
@@MrTARDIS Ahh okay. Also i've done a 57th Anniversary video if you're interested which took inspiration from a video of yours, but credit has been given ruclips.net/video/tsk-WKjW9sw/видео.html
I agree with this opinion.
Ayy dynasty warriors music
8:21 The problem with this logic is what the hell was the alternative? Even if the Daleks destroyed themselves you still have all of those Time War nasties that weren't dealt with.
9:06 apparently Moffat didn't read or listen to anything past the TV movie and if it bothered him so much he could have used NOTD to develop 8 into someone who would fight
Day of the Doctor would definitely have been a very different story with the 9th or 8th Doctor in it.
Ok, you won me over.
Amazing job and perfectly rationalised. Felt like a sequel to my 5WF Moffat essay...but, y'know, *better*!
Excellent
If you're planning on making more video essays, I have a suggestion for a potential one: When is changing the canon acceptable and how far should one go? (examples: 'The Deadly Assassin', 'The Timeless Children', etc.)
Should've been Paul McGann
How? It wouldn't work.
@ read Doctor Who and The Time War by Russell T Davis
@ Of course it would work
amazing video mate
That makes a lot of sense!! Thank you very much 🌹It is just very sad that the ninth doctor had to carry all the weight of the war doctor.. When he said " i made it happen" that gives us an insight to how he think that was his fault his people died.. In the end he was just a broken solider suffering from ptsd.. 💔
I have no idea why it was a meme that Steven Moffat killed off a tone of characters, it's just untrue. How Davies never got this rep is beyond me too
The Script would of been different if it was Christopher instead of John
Fantastic video essay, MrTardis! Hugely insightful and thought provoking. Thank you!
Dude this video was fantastic! Your video essays are fantastic! Also the editing is on point!
This video is absolutely brilliant! It’s made me consider day of the Doctor definitely as I had always wanted the 8th as I always imagined him doing it but this has made me reflect, thank you! Your really still one of the best dr who RUclipsrs
I agree Eccelston shouldn't have been there in the role John Hurt ended up playing, but had they wanted him there in addition to the rest that would have been good. Sadly that wasn't their intention.
Good video but I've gotta disagree here. If Eccleston had agreed to come back the thing to do would have just been to adjust the dynamic so the pain associated with him is clear but without active antagonism. Given that Rose traveled with nine first ten would likely have some level of nostalgia for his old face mixed in with the negative feelings. Also I disagree with Moffat that eight pushing the button wouldn't work. McGann has a huge range and was in universe the Doctor for a very long time.
@ I don't disagree with the War Doctor being a good idea and it probably was the best. Also I don't really trust Eccleston whose had a lot of negative experiences around the show to be totally objective about the script as you've pointed out. Considering the countless different ways eight behaves in Big Finish I don't think much could be said to be out of character for him and I doubt the BBC would have cared enough to forbid his usage beyond the minisode. Like I said I think having the war Doctor was the best thing I just feel the other options would have been viable.
Man, I stopped watching you for awhile, due to losing temporary interest in Doctor who (Sorry, I’ve been really into The War Of The Worlds recently - I even have a project for it possibly coming, now that I’m done with high school) - but anyways, yea. :v Doctor Who.. a lot has happened a lot this year.
I can’t wait for the new special, and I’m one of the few who loved Series 12- so yes. I can’t believe it’s nearly been a year since Dalekcember. W O W ~
Anyways yea, I need to catch up with the whole Time lord victorious stuff. Ima immediately assume, it’s leading into the birth of The Valeyard. :v Maybe that’s how this will all end. First impressions though-
I just love that day of the doctor makes every episode from rose to day of a what if scenario, we just saw what the war doctor is seeing with the moment. It basicly makes the first 7 seasons one big connected story.
Huh. You know, yeah, that’s a good point.
Hey Mr Tardis I’m tryna resonate concrete!
I disagree that nine won't work in Day of the Doctor! I was never a fan of how Moffat treated death. But you made a great video and backed up your argument. Although I don't think the audience would mind the other doctors feeling horrified by because Nine himself was horrified by his action in the time war! So themeaticly it makes sense.
However I am in a way glad he didn't return, because we won't of had John Hurt War Doctor otherwise. And thanks to Big Finish is up there with Nine as one of my favourite doctors
ScottyDoc again I disagree, true Christopher Ecclestone acting is usually at its best when he’s doing it seriously, but he can do lighthearted as well. Look at Rose and Boom town.
ScottyDoc I can understand and agree on a level on your argument on Nine’s Character arc, however I think that’s still applies with the War Doctor, and is more a criticism with Day of the Doctors. As for continuity seeing as Rose has him act like this is new to him.... okay that’s true hah
Cool video!!!!!!
Well the Time War was a canon breaking piece of shit to start with so my preference for the anniversary would have been Sylvester McCoy to wake up from his mushroom trip and the real Whoniverse to resume but if you HAVE to do something to save Gallifrey whilst maintaining the aberrant nWho timeline. I'd have made the whole epsiode a McGaan-Jayston team up where the Doctor's wide eyed hopeful boy teams up with all his bitterness and resentment for the sake of the universe eventually merging into the 9th incarnation as a new central nexus point for the universe to replace Gallifrey. Not only would this give the 2 most badly treated Doctors a chance to shine but it would also explain why the universe literally revolves round the Doctor in nWho.
I agree with the idea, but I feel like the special was written around having a new doctor. I doubt these would have been major problems if they knew ahead of time they were getting 9.
The eighth Doctor should of been the War Doctor
How? He wouldn't work.
@ Paul McGann would have made it work. If Russell T Davis was the showrunner for the 50th anniversary episode the 8th Doctor would have been the War Doctor. Buy or order Doctor Who and The Time War by Russell T Davis
@@leejohnstone9047 8 was too full of life & it would've betrayed his character.
@ read Doctor Who and The Time War by Russell T Davis
Imagine if the War Doctor was the Other