Jordan Peterson - Blue-Collar Lifestyle and IQ
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- Опубликовано: 6 авг 2017
- original source: • Q & A 2017 07 July
Don't look down on blue-collar work.
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As a professional plumber with 34 years of experience in my trade, it never ceases to amaze me the "arrogance" of these so-called white coller individuals who peer down thier noses at tradesmen. I have seen many college grads on my jobsites over the years and it's always a joy to personally humble them and introduce them to the fact that they don't know shit!
The Porcelain Throne is used by all even those who don't know shit :)
Everybody's real full of themselves until about the time a pipe breaks and they have a panic attack in their flooding bathroom. A joy sounds like the right way to put it.
@Tarzan When did they even say that?
They are just pointing out how college grads are arrogant.
*their
Are you Instagram sir or any other social media? i really wanna talk to you about plumbing Career
"There's Always a shortage of qualified people for Every occupation."
...powerful.
Jacob D Wunsch true though, everyone is hiring.... And theres people on welfare.....
Gary White All Hard work is a virtue. Not everyone has that.
Also some of those welfare people most likely have iq's below 87.
Ironically the only exception to that rule is the liberal arts.
Many Dog you are a fool , did you realise I am on a disability pension my IQ is 130. In a pension I am allowed in Australia to run my own buisness handing in profit and loss statements to welfare, my buisness is an automotive technician I am highly skilled and have my own buisness because looking for a “JOB “ was wasting my financial resource, I have some seasonal full time casual work coming up soon, I also invest money direct investing on the sharemarket , people in welfare are not stupid ! In fact the facts are most businesses in most countries are started from unemployed people who go on to hire higher education university students for their buisness . I really would say the comment you just made says more about you and the IQ that you have than anyone else .
Let's not forget the importance of knowing certain people.
My dad, when I was born, was a mere manual laborer - then he and my mum saved up , he went back to school and became an electrician. Worked a backbreaking job for years (at great physical cost) for an electrical company that his high school friend owned - his friend, all along the way, gave my Dad higher paying jobs, until he ended up as a chief engineer, then a co-owner of the company.
This is so unlikely to happen to a person who had no connection to the original owner. My Dad was just lucky to know the owner.
People always say that luck is nothing more than practice plus patience - but that's utter bullshit. Sometimes you just know someone who'll make things happen.
Having said that - after high school, all my friends went in to the trades - they are now making stupid amounts of money and have their own families and houses by now - and here I am, wallowing in debt and shame because I thought I was "too good" for a mere trade job.
Yeah it’s a good story
Thanks for sharing. Great perspective.
I disagree. Your father would have been successful working for someone else. Had he not worked so hard, and been so good all the connections in the world would not have helped. Not in private industry..
Your father had the right attitude to push on and better his situation, some may say he was in the right place at the right time, I would say he made the right decisions, worked hard to put himself in a good position and his time came. Interesting read, thanks.
"There's no reason to assume whatsoever that merely because you don't have the intellectual horse-power to work well in the domain of rapidly shifting abstractions that your life has to be of secondary quality or opportunity". That's the best off-the-cuff remark i've ever heard.
I love being blue collar. There are plenty of "higher I.Q." (not off-the-charts or anything) blue collar jobs. I'm an electonics technician (Not electrician) and I love it. I work with my body and hands every day and earn a great living. There are people who install, repair, and maintain MRI magnets, CT scanners, Comm tower xmitters/rcvrs, etc. and they are not stuck doing one thing. They gotta know a handful of computer lang, electrical theory, practical operation, and troubleshooting theory. I aint no office man, leashed to a desk.
add to that, knowing when you'll get off work (vs stuck in cubicle hell for long hours), having a beer with friends after work (vs taking the laptop home and continuing work at home that evening), not having a long ass commute because you don't have a super niche white collar job, not the mental stress of upcoming deadlines. The sheer physical inactivity of my white collar career drives me nuts. And what does this mensan like to do in my spare time? work on cars, woodworking, and home DIY.... I wish I had gone into a hands on type career like yours neon; heck back in the 80s I was a forrest mims devotee, playing with breadboards and digital and analog ICs... fun stuff
That's what I'm going to school for. It's been incredible. We are learning circuit analysis, assembly language, c programming fundamentals, electrical theory. I plan on using this information to get into solar energy.
there are plenty of people with "off the charts" iq's that would love nothing more than to fix ac's and wire a house. trade jobs aren't for dumb people, different people like different environments. pretty sure one of the smartest men in the world runs a ranch or something. he gets his intellectual stimulation from his hobbies and not his job.
Neon Peon Where did you go for your training and was it a 2, or 4 year degree. Regards.
You are totally right. I did end up with a cs degree even though have an appreciation for engineering. And now that I'm done, the actual world of jobs with all this "tech" stuff actually superficial fake b.s.
"Subservient lifestyle" Jesus, I´m college educated too and the arrogance in the way this question was put baffles me. Just like what a modern Democrat thinks...the cultural bubble of office jobs
If you aren't in a cubicle tapping on a plastic keyboard while listening to 20 other people doing the same, you must be subservient. Even if you own the hammer you're pounding the nails with and even if you set your own waking time for that day. That's how deluded modern Democrats are.
VTS -NL Bull. Fucking. Shit.
Come back after you need a plumber or an electrician and tell us how useful they are.
JP was not talking about economic output, reach, or power. None of which necessarily equate with useful.
+VTS-NL call Bill Gates when you break down on the freeway; if you don't drive, same applies when the subway, bus, or your bicycle no longer works.
ThePreciseMoment lol they've been brainwashed to believe a title & an office where they spend 80 hrs/week away from their family is "Independence"... good times! 👍🏻
Im an electrician, and yes there are certain parts of my job you don't need much upstairs to do (switches, plugs, etc), but if you want to run jobs, troubleshoot, or even deal with some of the new systems (programmable lights, security, fire alarm, telecom, etc) you need to be a pretty smart person. The last company I worked for, I was paid much more than everyone else because I could sit down at my laptop and program whole floors with lighting and HVAC settings. It's a lot of work (56 hour weeks are pretty common, and I've done 72 hour weeks for months straight), and it's a lot of training, but I was making $76k at age 23, while still in my apprenticeship.
The best part of the trades though is being able to drive past a building and tell your friends and family "See that over there? I built that" and it brings a lot of pride to be able to do that.
Edit: Also, subservient lifestyle? Horseshit. I started running work at 26. What exactly is subservient about telling people twice your age that they'll have their computers back when I'm done setting up the network protector, and no I can't rush because if I screw up it'll take down the power for a whole city block. Seems like a pretty powerful position to me.
Dirk Diggler Subservient is having 3 degrees in hyperintellectual rubbish and working at Starbucks. When you have said degrees, you ultimately end up relying on the tax dollars of people like you, because you have no way of making money beyond the munificence of government, education, or other bloated tax-payer funded bureaucracies.
P.S. Trump is an idiot.
P.S.S. PT Anderson is still a genius.
$76k at 23? Holy shit! What is it like working as an electrician?
cameron bartlett It's not exactly easy...It's still construction. You wake up at the ass crack of dawn and usually work long hours. At least, at the start. If you're smart or a good leader, you can move up and become a foreman or project leader. I don't do much field work now, but I definitely put in my share of it. Spent time in trenches, manholes, climbed into a few ceilings, etc...But it was worth it to get where I am now.
Also helped me avoid the Marxist brainwashing and student debt I would have gotten in college. Lol
Yup, I have a buddy, he's 26 years old working as an electrician, and he makes $80k, he does work like a dog though.
Dont forget the trigonometry we use for conduit bending, being an electrician requires a good amount of math!
When I finished highschool, I wanted to go to a trade school. I was told by someone that that's a bad idea and that there was no money in it. I felt in my gut that they were wrong, but I went a long with it. I think I may have been good at some sort of trade.
Richard Nixon If I listened to my instincts I would be 500 pounds and perpetually covered in cake and hookers.
Marcus Tullius Cicero ... lol. 👏👏👏
Zanroff, you still can be great at a trade.
Marcus Tullius Cicero *coke
Anyone who told you there was no money in trades is dumb. Basic journeymen coming out of a trade school make at or around the average middleclass income levels. This includes carpenters, plumbers, welders, electricians, mechanics, etc. That is usually not typical for degreed graduates outside of the STEM fields or law/medicine degrees. although the degreed employees will earn more overtime it is also more complicated to become self employed outside of trade work. I think the goal of most tradesmen is to become self employed sometime in the future. I would suggest to anyone to go to trade school and then pick up a bachelors degree in business while you work in the trade. If after 10 to 20 years you are not satisfied with your progression in the trade go into business for yourself.
I happen to have a high IQ and went to an Ivy League school, but I soon discovered working in an office didn't do it for me. I got into the trades, and now I have my own small business as a carpenter and contractor. It has been a wonderful, and fulfilling way to provide for my young family. I set my own hours, I have tremendous flexibility, and I find my work challenging and rewarding. One thing I have to watch out for and avoid though, is the kind of customer that would ask a question like this. I wonder who they are subservient to?
Yeah, I'd rather bust my ass physically and use my hands than sit for 8+ hours in a cubical as my testosterone levels drop and my blood pressure skyrockets. Physical labor is much more fulfilling than sitting behind a computer all day in an oppressive corporate environment where you could easily be fired for simply saying the wrong thing. I fucking HATE the office environment. I'd rather make less and feel ALIVE than make more and be dead on the inside.
LIQUIDSNAKEz28 you’re just insecure abour your masculinity.
that is true to a certain extent, but a lot of back pain is waiting for you as you get older
Chances of hooking up with a female coworker is higher in the office though.
I like a balance of both honestly. I've worked behind a computer all day, and I've swung a 20 lb sledge hammer all day. the best jobs I've had are the ones where I get to use my brain and stay on my feet.
Nietzschean Ideal please do categorize goldstein's level of masculinity...
Professionals: Architects, Doctors, Lawyers, ... SERVE THEIR CLIENTS. This is no different than a Pullman Porter. They just do different tasks.
Exactly if you're contributing immensely in whatever you do, wtf is the difference? We need to start pushing these jobs on millennials because most illegal immigrants are taking them(at least in the United states).
It's funny when you think about it, you serve your boss and your bosses boss, but ultimately we are all just serving each other, because the bosses boss wouldn't have a job if they didn't provide a service that a lot of people want
the main difference with "professions" such as doctors and lawyers, is that they charge you whether they solve the problem or not, unlike a trade.
Al Pollick I went to a urolgist once. He said, "I'm just a plumber, man. I'm just a glorified plumber."
Lol seriously, I'm an architect and I feel LESS freedom than many of the tradesmen and subcontractors probably do. I'd rather NOT deal with clients. I don't even make a significant amount more than the guys who are certified electricians or plumbers and CERTAINLY LESS than the guys who own their own company. I often regret going to college instead of learning a trade and starting a business.
I have a "blue collar" job. I'm making six figures right out of school and being stuck in a cubicle would drive me nuts. Has nothing to do with IQ.
Ryan Eastwick
Yea man even if tradesmen would make a lot less than college graduates working in an office do I physically couldn’t be stuck in a cubicle all day I would blow my brains out
I'm a university educated person who now works in journalism in a predominantly blue collar community in northern Alberta. A lot of the people here work in trades, particularly in the oil and gas sector, and I will never take anyone seriously who questions their competence. A few of them have become local politicians and I find they bring a refreshing perspective that's very practical to these kinds of issues.
As someone who is above average intelligence and works in a "blue collar" job, I get to clock out at the end of my day and go home and start my REAL job of raising my 2 boys!
>blue collar jobs are menial and subservient
>professional jobs are meaningful and liberating
It takes a lot of intelligence to believe something so stupid.
keymaker2112 funny how you can reverse it and it makes sense
I would say that you have to be highly educated to believe that, rather than intelligent.
Highly educated and intelligent do not often go hand in hand.
Best comment ever.
Do not always go hand in hand, that's for sure. But most often, they do go hand in hand.
To be highly educated (PhD, scientific, scholar, etc.) you have to have a good IQ. If you have low IQ, you´re most likely to stop at medium educated, at best.
I voluntarily went from IBM system engineer to commercial fisherman. I went through University on a math scholarship, having a genius range IQ. But I wanted to have a balanced life with friends, sports, family, travel, and personal development. I rejected the work-all-your-waking-hours monomania necessary to climb the corporate ladder.
I have always been glad I made that choice, and never had a moment of regret. I have made very good money, traveled around the world, and have excellent health from the outdoor exercise that was part of my work. When I see desk workers, they often have rounded shoulders and a host of ailments.
This question is funny... I dont think they understand that farmers live more fulfilling and economically strong lives than the average worker in the cities.
Comm Hetman Tell that to the kulaks bucko
No they don't.
1nzi that wasn't because the kulaks were farmers, though, it was becaise the dirty commies poisoned the minds of those beneath the farmers socioeconomicall and got them to steal the farmers prooerty which caused the famine because the "means of production" were dustrocibted to be in the hands of the less competent, if I understand that situation properly that is.
And I'd wager your average farmer would do more intellectually demanding work than an average white collar worker. Additionally their work is much more satisfying as it has a clear realisable purpose.
I thought that farmers are getting destroyed and their farms are losing money.
Just because you have an IQ that enables you to deal with abstractions, doesn't mean you will find it satisfying to do, 40 hours a week! For some (including myself) that feels draining and removed from reality
spoke this into existence!
I am a electrical engineer graduated at UWO 2006. I own and drive flat bed big rig and make 7000.00 a week. Its about money not pride. You can have your white collar job and minivan and subdivision house. I am happy with my ford 250 2015 truck and 8000 sq.ft house with a lake and 100 acres. I work only 8 months and travel to India four 4 months oth my family riding elephants and camels and taking my son to see mountains that touch the sky(himalayas). blue collar or white collar its about how much coming into your bank to take care of your family. I got trapped into this bullshit too that since I am engineer I have to work white collar, but when you see blue collar driving nice cars and nice house and start their own business and make what I make in a month they make in a week-seriously its about surviving and thriving not pride and being narrow minded. If there is greener fields somewhere else and there is a ocean of shit between you, you better learn to swim in shit.
I’m a doctor and I hang out with my ‘blue collar’ friends only because they behave like men should and are industrious. My doctor coworkers are soy boys.
As a plumber with a fairly high intelligence and low conscientiousness i can share this: It's very rewarding work, pays well and allows you to pursue your own creative hobbies because you don't expend all your mental energy at work. With that said, even plumbing can be difficult and challenging if you want to be the best and take responsibility beyond what is demanded of you. The person asking the question probably lacks self awareness as noone would be that arrogant and ignorant if they heard themselves speak.
Ha! I think you’d be surprised.
A woman referred to the Tradie as 'subservient'. Statistically she may be highly educated, older and single and if she only dates across and up she will remain alone and without a family. So many women who cannot 'date' down are missing some really great guys that are economically able to support a family and wife. ( I am white collar with a blue collar mindset) Blue Collar trades, especially one that involves a high level of skill and perhaps creativity. Is an EXCELLENT career path.
Some of the finest, most brilliant men I've ever known worked with their hands, and were true artists -- with wood, brick, steel, the ground itself .... my father was one of them.
Jonathan Watson
Come on man, most Blue collar American males don’t want these “educated and independent” office enslaved females, the females aren’t worth it.
@@snowfrosty1 why not
I can't think of a more subservient occupation than sitting in an office cubicle 8 hours a day.
With the market saturated with college grads, it makes a LOT of sense to get into a trade field. I've seen so many grads struggle to find a job and those that do, worry about losing it. On the other hand, the tradesmen enjoy constant business and happy, middle-class lifestyles - often better than someone with a degree.
The arrogance emanating from the education establishment is sickening. They live and "work" in buildings built by those whose skills they cannot match, supported by systems they don't understand, and have the gall and temerity to feel they are at the apex of civilization. We build the buildings they live and work in, outside, in the cold, or the heat, or the rain. We build and maintain the critical infrastructure that supports their standards of living, and indeed their survival. When we get paid, a gross portion is taken from us, and from our customers, and shoveled to their ever expanding, ever more expensive, and (mostly) useless education system. They are NOT the apex. They are parasites! Students living into their late 20's, providing nothing in return for what they consume. Teachers sitting back with their holidays and pensions, never taking a risk. they are in no position to judge the self made men who built themselves and our world out of nothing. (nothing against those with useful degrees) JBP is what the humanities should be.
hosmerhomeboy indeed, if the system crumbled. No one would need an accountant. And he'd be your bitch.
Damm that was well postulated!
thisisn'tmyrealname well put
Amen
thisisn'tmyrealname Very well said.
One of my friends is an industrial pipe-fitter and it takes massive skill and precision to do his job. I can guarantee you that blue collar jobs aren't easy, or simple. They only require a different mindset that is more practical and less abstract.
Yeah as a commercial carpenter, it is practical and less abstract. though blueprints aren't. Haha
I'm blue collar with a high IQ. I also have ASD. My issues limit my abilities. I'm happy with my life, I get lots of undistracted time to think about quantum physics and cosmological theories. I wasn't diagnosed until age 45 and as a child I did poorly in public school. I have attention and memory issues. If I were diagnosed early and placed in an educational setting where I could have flourished who knows what potential I might have realized. But to be honest other than day to day struggles I enjoy my life. I'm free from most stress at work and have a blank slate most evenings to dream of sciences large and small.
I have the same issue, part of the reason I decided to get a College Degree in Astronomy and Cosmology. Being on the Spectrum sucks, but there are online degrees that will tickle your fancy. Frankly I am just blowing through this degree like it is nothing, don't have to deal with idiotic people.
Invest, invest, invest. The more you invest, the sooner you retire.
:33 I clean my room. Jordan Peterson renovates his.
I’m a welder and a cellist and I have found that there are geniuses in all disciplines.
For all techniques and skills we take for granted, there were individuals who discovered, developed and shared their wisdom with the rest of us.
The scary part is that some of it has been lost, the hopeful part is that it can be rediscovered.
I'm a teacher and I do this all the time. Currently, in my form class I have two boys that are going to be doctors but the vast majority of the rest are going into trades ... and it is a great choice for them. There is nothing wrong with that at all - it will give them a future. New Zealand! In terms of IQ, some of the future trades guys are really quite intelligent ... but academically lazy. Sometimes, they are just taking the easy option - follow in the local family business etc. A few are academically challenged, of course, but it is the intelligent tradesman that holds the country together for sure.
Skill is different than Intellect. This is a confusion everyone has.. I like his response. I'd like to add, I had a blue collar father (machinist) but I have a high IQ. I am so grateful that he schooled me on how to work with my hands, all throughout my childhood. It meant I could use tools, build things, fix things all for myself. My IQ would not have given me this ability as a child.
I mean.. how obvious is the bumbling professor archetype? It is very easy to become useless as a person, except in a highly narrow area, if you have a high IQ. The trades are a source of reliable income, and they are never a bad choice for a person to engage in, if they do so with gusto. Also, an average to low IQ person has a much better chance at a good and stable income in the trades, and can become a master at their trade without needing a very high IQ. It just is not all about IQ, and we shouldn't think of those with lower IQs as "subservient".
There are a lot of farmers and ranchers who are multimillionaires and those guys spend their whole day covered in dirt and shit. You wouldn't even realize they were as smart as they are, even while they work with their hands for a living, to look at them.
I know a very wealthy family. They own one of the bigger logging companies in the area. They're out in the woods just like anyone else. They live in a house that's pretty modest given their means, they drive toyota SUVs, and work trucks...
Jordan, thank you so much for being a sane voice in a chaotic society. I love how he bluntly says that being intelligent and being able to process information quickly is a powerful tool to have and will help you in life, but he also doesn't downplay those (such as myself!) who are a little slower on the uptake. Success isn't determined by IQ.
I have an I.q. Of 135, but I have a sensory processing disorder that slows down my processing by at least 4x. Everything I know I had to teach myself because the system only tolerates effluent learners. My learning style results in more more thorough understand and execution if only I could have the space to train at my own pace.
"Professionals are predictable, too bad the world is full of amateurs."
- no Idea who said this but it sounds relevant to this.
I was a software analyst, now I work at a grocery store and do all kinds of fun side jobs. It's awesome. I wish I had known I could work with my hands and paid well. I wouldn't have gone to school. I wish I had done a skilled trade like electrical or welding. It's much more interesting to work with your hands, it's like a fun game to see how well you can work. It passes the time way better than a desk job. You don't look at the clock. Also I get paid to workout. I don't do super heavy lifting but I lift, bend, squat, reach, plus I walk and walk. I'm in the best shape of my life and I eat tons of free, organic food. Seriously!
You get paid well in a grocery store?
lol software analyst-software coder/programmer you know thats fun too?
@@jacques8290 lol good question
One of the most well balanced people I know is a carpenter. He has a beautiful shop that he spends his days in. He has a waiting list of customers because his work is so elegant and well done. He loves his craft and works out of the shop he built in his back yard. He spends his days close to his family and has a wonderful connection with everyone he works with. Blue collar life can be fantastic, simplified, and honorable.
That being said, I would think it would be difficult to tell someone that they are not intelligent enough to reach their proposed goals and that they should alter their plans due to intellectual limitations.
Convinced me to get a trade after years of working in kitchens thank you.
I've done both kinds of work. One is no more needed than the other. The office needs lights and the electrician needs his paycheck. Circumstances vary but both are necessary
I agree completely. I am both s award winning architect from Cornell and a master carpenter and I have found that the carpentry both took more intelligence to do and was more satisfying.I´m now retired, dancing and painting and have never felt subservient, but both grateful and free.
The question asker is a perfect example of the types that will become educators someday
"In the realm of rapidly shifting abstractions ". Great language. Original thinker, big heart.
The typical book smart person with high IQ always pushes IQ results as the be all end all of intelligence. They can talk and theorize for days, but if you asked them to change a flat tire on their car; many wouldn't be able to figure it out. Some of the 'smartest' people I know, are the most useless when it comes to practical knowledge.
The convergence of issues facing men today is truly staggering. These blue collar jobs are what built the middle class in America and they are going away for a number of reasons. The biggest reason is technology and robotics. The truth is most men are not going to do well in a highly academic environment and that is painfully obvious by the surging #'s of women in higher education as men continue to shrink. What is society going to do when 60 to 70 percent of the young men are unemployed and disenfranchised? I smell a big fat war coming. BTW - I quit a job in middle management to do something I enjoy and find fulfillment in: welding. It pays good, too.
paul norris ... sounds like an interesting life story. care to share how you made that transition?
Interesting? Quite the opposite. Like most other people working in 2008, I went through an economic day of reckoning. My middle management paycheck was cut by 15% and I was asked to layoff several employees while assuming their task. As we came out of the recession (still think we are in it, personally), I realized how bitter I was about the things I had to endure and the new reality of pay "stagnation". In 2010, my father died, which impacted me greatly and my first child was born. I began to think about my dad and how unfulfilled he seemed after a lifetime working in similar situation. I began to feel like a failure because what I accomplished at work seemed petty and insignificant. All I did was push paper and I never had a sense of accomplishment. I did not want my son to see me like I saw my dad, a person miserable in their choice of employment but too duty bound to quit and look for something that brought happiness. It was then I decided I'd rather work with my hands then deal with or manage people anymore. I had a basic welding background but I had not utilized the skill in nearly 20 years. I just remembered the rush I got from melting steel and the great sense of accomplishment when the projects were completed. The industry has changed a lot in 20 years but mostly for the better. The machines are smaller, cheaper, easier to set up/run and more forgiving. I think these improvements in equipment helped me overcome my lack of a formal welding education. Plus, if you have an interest and some basic welding skill, many shops will bring you in and train you because there is a need for this skill right now. You do not have the mass assembly line type welding work but there are still plenty of job opportunities in the manufacturing sector. I have landed in a custom fabrication shop where we do anything from repairs to new design/construction. I still get a rush every time I lay a bead. I have to admit that having a wife who is a nurse that can easily find a good paying/stable job helped me a ton in the transition, especially considering I did have to take a pretty severe pay cut to begin with.
The government will continue to create more fake paper pushing jobs to females as the demand increases. There will be fewer and fewer who actually contributes real value to society.
I agree that the issues facing men today are staggering, and I hope I can play some part in helping men rather than making their situation worse.
Pyagrl*16 I'm all about equal rights and strong women. I was the only boy in a family of 6 kids. My sisters are nurse practitioner, pharmacist and teachers. If there was anything I think women could do it would be to try and understand/embrace the historical roles of men and women but with a modern approach. These roles have played into a system that allowed great advances in society and shouldn't be completely abandoned.
Hard working men and women deserve respect.
I tried working in an office and hated it. I got a part time job well drilling, quit my office job in a week and never regretted it for a second.
He puts a lot of emphasis on IQ but It is nothing without devotion to a certain craft or field. Being talented doesn't get you anywhere in life. A person's ambition and work ethic will carry them where they want to go. While IQ will determine said person's ceiling, without other characteristics it's worthless. He even said that one of the smartest people he knew killed himself after never aspiring to much
Neither of you seemed to pay any attention at all to the video. He didn't say that IQ would limit you to a certain life style or career, nor did he dismiss the ability of a lower IQ person to achieve great things. He merely stated that a lower IQ person would have to work much harder at a job that requires greater intellect. He also placed great emphasis on devotion, focus, hard work to achieve greatness. Seriously wtf video were you two watching?
put it like this, anyone can become a good cheas player, but GREAT? it's not for everyone sadly, so you should reasses your prioritie, if you don't fall in that small percentage.
You are actually way off.. the things you said there are fairytales that parents tell their kids. "Hard work beats talent": No it doesn't. An inteligent person, with little to no work ethics, will be way more successful than uninteligent person, in certain domains. It's just the way it is.
And the inteligent person with no work ethics has its own suited domain at which it relishes,.. those are mostly creative geniuses (high in openness, low in conscientiousness) so they are anything but "worthless", as you refered to them.
It's not that people with low IQ have no value in society, they do, it just that people with higher IQ have higher value (but, as such, also have more responsibility). They contribute more. It's that simple.
That contradicts the popular belief that all people are equal which is just false. People seem to have problem accepting that fact. Hard work won't change that. There are people who are smarter than others and there is nothing you can do about it. Deal with it.
it doesn't make you worth less on broader picture tho.
Stuart D yes, he said that.
" He merely stated that a lower IQ person would have to work much harder at a job that requires greater intellect."
Exactly... So if they work 40 hours a week, then you will have to work 70. But what if those people ale already working 60-70 hours a week? And they often do... Then you would have to work like 120? Isn't that a limit to your ability?
And sadly no, it's not that if a person with IQ=110 works hard enough, then he will become a second Einstein... Of course it's possible in theory, because in theory almost anything is possible. But the probability is something else... So would you bet your life on something that can happen with a probability of 1/1000000000?
I'm a blue collar welder for the Aerospace company SPACEX!!!
Jordan ---- No Shit???? That's effin awesome.
Cool. If you see Mr. Musk, take his iPhone so he stops sending out tweets that will tank his companies.
Finally someone in academia who isn't afflicted with ivory tower syndrome.
That clarification about 'subservient' prior to answering the question 👍🏻👌🏻👍🏻
Thank You Jordan for giving me the "nod" that its alright that God mad me a skilled Carpenter to make my way thru life with!
I now it's 5 years on, but remember God was also a skilled carpenter.
I'm only 1 example. But I had an IQ of 128 the last time i did a test. I'm a heavy equipment operator, and love it. spent 10 years in a "white collar" job. I miserable. Couldnt work a phone or desk again.
No Pe
“I miserable”
>128 iq
Sure
@@nutlover3609 dios mio, me so miserable
Let's not forget that just because you do blue collar work doesn't mean you aren't intelligent. A lawyer will have a hard time being a plumber, electrician, hvac or elevator mechanics. They challenge you mentally in different ways than reading or speaking fast. And just because you work in an office does not mean you do ANYTHING meaningful. The arrogance of some people, if you think you can put down blue collar workers think again, because their jobs are at the least amount of risk of being automated.
The smartest most humble man I've heard in a long time.
Another thing to keep in mind is the substantial technological advancement some trades have gone through over the past couple decades, and the impact it's had on determining the type of people who find success in them. As a journeyman machinist and CNC programmer, I can attest to the fact that unintelligent people don't last very long in the field. Aside from that though, one of the greatest things about blue collar work is that if you don't have what it takes to do the job, you're gone. No safe spaces, no shits given about your feelings. Only grownups survive. Well, unless you're part of union, I guess.
The trade occupations need so many workers in North America. People in "trade" might have dirt under their finger nails, but they can make a lot of money. Just because you put sweat equity into something does not mean it is less important than brain power sitting in a chair. Even now the most important occupation is farming. If nobody takes the time to grow food to live; then who could live. Top 3 occupations. Farmer builder and weaver. These people take care of your needs. Nothing matters if you don't have what you need.
This is my favorite video from Jordan Peterson to date.
Oh my god, my family's place has gone through renovations and we went through so many different contractors, who were all awful. They would be late, take a really long time to do the job and usually it would be subpar. Then my parents found a very good contractor who ran his own business and took on young men to learn the trade properly. They were all clean cut, very polite and well spoken and did the work incredibly fast and perfectly. Sometimes I wouldn't even realize they were there until I opened a door because they were that quiet (where I live these kinds of workers are generally pretty loud when they speak, some would drink on the job, etc.). It was really then I realized the importance of a REALLY good blue collar worker.
Whether or not you have a high IQ has very little to do with your career choice in the long run, science tells us if you have over a 120 you are pretty much capable do anything you want. Other factors are what you find important, what you ENJOY doing, and what your personality type is. I have a friend who was always a member of the Gifted and Talented Program in high school, went on to be an electrician and is making over 100k in a low cost of living area. The "I went to college so I can sit on my ass for the rest of my life" mentality should have ended in the 70s
The industries that need blue collar workers are woefully lacking in training programs or schools to help address the shortage of tradespeople. I don't know how many times I see job openings for trades, but they all ask for journeymen or at least several years of experience, so it makes me wonder how does one gain experience if nobody hires trainees?
I'm not a blue collar worker but I stood up and clapped, like damn, this is something we should hammer down on people currently studying and planning out their life.
I have a college education but had lots of difficulty finding work in my field. I currently work for a nonprofit. It's a paycheck but I can't say I really enjoy it. It took me a long time to find work after I graduated from college so I had a whole bunch of part-time jobs. One of my jobs was detailing cars for a friend of mine. I absolutely loved doing it so I kept it up after I found the job I have now. A few years later I started my own detailing business and it has grown a lot. I've taken some professional training classes so hopefully I'll be doing this full time. It is extremely hard work but one thing I like is the sense that I've accomplished something at the end of the day and I can see what I accomplished. I'll start my morning with a very dirty looking car and by lunch time it's in showroom condition. Now that I'm working towards growing my business so I can do it full time, I've been wondering what would have happened if I just did everything I'm doing now when I was 18 instead of gonna to college. I can't really say that college was a complete waste of time, but sometimes I think our public schools make it seem like the only careers that are worth pursuing are the ones where you need a college education and blue collar jobs are no good.
Im a qualified welder at 27 ive the potential to make atleast 250k in the oil and gas industry welding pipe. I have a IQ of 133 by the way but i went the apprenticeship route
tiocfaidh ar la
Really? How did you go about getting that job?
@@joeisproful I got an apprenticeship at 18 and moved to Australia when I got qualified. I've been welding 13years now
Working as a trades person is ok, you can wear comfortable clothing & engage the body & the brian, its not all stuck in the intelect. I've done tens of thousands of hours of renovation building hundreds of bathrooms & tiled many houses, met interesting people, however the dust & mould is a health problem, My hips are wearing out & the pay has stayed the same for a decade or more, I think people don't have the boredom stamina or resilience to keep going at one thing, zen meditations can be helpful & having patience & humility.
I am a public accountant and am seriously thinking of quitting my so called white collar job and do something which i always enjoyed.... Thanks to Prof. Peterson for giving me this other side of a happy and content life.
I know many tradespeople who work incredibly hard and have built up businesses that are far more financially rewarding than many academically minded people. Huge house & garden, lots of nice holidays, several nice cars etc... Intelligence just means you have the potential to succeed, but you also need ambition, determination and the courage to take risks. Society needs a whole range of people with different abilities to function. Well said Dr Peterson.
He should have added that if you are at all tilted towards imagination and abstraction then do not let people talk you into going the "practical route". You'll just end up wishing you got that philosophy degree the first time round.
What a dumb question. Karen Straughan is a waitress and she's probably the smartest person alive right now.
Excellent response Mr. Peterson. Thank you for addressing it.
as a wind turbine technician i make 6 figures after 6 months of school. my office is a turbine 360 ft in the air ( no boss around for miles) with a popped top, miles of country to look at, and travel all over america. the world if i want to transfer. Not to mention tons of specialization and upward mobility. I get to use my brain to fix these turbines, and I contribute to a growing percentage of clean energy.
pretty smart, fulfilling, and liberating if u ask me :-)
have fun at ur cube desk
As a man who's struggling with his switch from academia to blue-collar work, I like this video a lot. I busted my ass in college, made the Dean's List, got scholarships, worked in labs in my free time, and now that I'm out I've discovered that I can spend 4 years and 60k to go to grad school, or follow in my father's footsteps and become a plumber. I just can't bring myself to go into a crippling amount of debt that will follow me until I pay it off when I know that if I land a job (which is a big if, given how many grad degrees's there are) I'll make roughly as much as a journeyman plumber. This video makes me feel less like a quitter and a failure in academia.
It’s just good sense.
I am a PhD. Engineer with a high enough I.Q. to easily be accepted in to Mensa but I consider myself entirely blue collar. I grew in in rural Central Fl., in the 60's and 70's and pretty much lived shirtless and shoeless as a kid and later learned to rebuild car engines with my Dad and pretty much spent my youth in the woods either exploring or hunting. It wasn't until I got to H.S. and scored sky high on a nationally standardized science/math test that I started my climb to Engineering College. Furthermore, I have spent nearly 11 years on two different University campuses earning undergrad, grad and doctoral Engineering degrees and I can say with a clear conscience that some of the dumbest/stupidest people I have ever met in my life where students on those campuses (let me make clear I am not talking about Engineering or other hard sciences students). In my eyes, most of the degrees that are handed out today are just fodder for the educational grist and have zero worth, value or purpose (a PhD. Engineer who works for a large American defense contractor.
At 3:00 he says exactly what I have been trying to push - that intelligence doesn't make you a good or better person.
I went from fisheries biologist to a skilled trade and then into a commerce position through that skilled trade. That opportunity wouldn't have been available had I stayed on the path given forth by the original university education... and I love what I do.
I currently work in the IT field in a large bank. In the past, I've done blue collar work such as delivery driving and cleaning pools. If all these lines of work paid the same, the IT field would be my last choice out of those three. The only advantage it has is financial - that's it.
I think that a certain cultural snobbery has emerged in "advanced" societies that undervalues the importance of blue collar professions. But nobody stops to think about what would happen if the garbage man stopped coming around for a few months.
What are they talking about? As a blue collar guy, I'm surrounded by nothing but geniuses.
My father went to NC state engineering(on a full ride) and the Colorado School of Mines but dropped out to mow grass. There's more to it than just potential.
I work in trucking as a dockworker. I make great money. It is a fast pace, mentally and physically demanding work. Sitting at a desk which I have done and hated it. I have also gotten into home renovations and I am loving it. I love machines and tools. Grrrr.
I guess the question is, is IQ static? I have worked in the trades for most of my life and it is a continuous learning process with lots of unexpected challenges, particularly in renovation work, where you need to do research to find out the best solutions. Good trades work with experts in related fields, and need to have a wide understanding of the many systems involved in construction. Lots of science I might add. It is so unfortunate when people look down on master trades persons. It shows their ignorance.
Crystallized IQ can increase with age if you learn non-stop.
Fluid IQ decreases, generally. However, exercising has been shown to maintain fluid IQ levels
pseudopetrus I agree 100%. I do commercial sheet metal. There is a reason the "high IQ" call a tradesman when they can't figure out how to fix or build anything.
Does IQ give you the full picture in the first place? I'd say that knowing your IQ is useful, and it's important to understand your limitations, but no, it doesn't tell you everything.
Research =/= intelligence. A wise trader isn't always smart, just as a smart trader isn't always wise. But being smart and learning any type of career will be much easier than if you were of average IQ (abstract thinking, logical thinking, associating one scenario with another etc etc).
A stupid person can also become a doctor, but will have to work SIGNIFICANTLY harder than a smart person. Also, the smart person will be better able to take the theory and use it in unique situations, by association. Said stupid person will likely have to encounter each scenario at least once, instead of being able to deduce it prior.
True. A 150iq person could be just as fooled in the left handed screw driver request. In simple terms I put intelligence as a static value down to pattern recognition, that can mean many things.. Words. Numbers. Pictures. Prediction and deduction. And it does not include wisdom, one of the most important intelligences there is.
Me: post apprenticeship construction worker, moved into logistics, happy, free, financially comfortable.
My sister: 2 university degrees, stacking shelves, morbid, slave to the hours, financially struggling.
@Ysaack Franco .Assumptions will always poorly reflect your own IQ.
I think you will find my sister is clever enough. The blame falls squarely on her choosing fucking retarded subjects, which granted makes me wonder about her IQ in the first place. However thats for someone who knows her to judge. Tell us what you do buddy!?
Well, your sister, like most of us, probably grew up having "go to college or you'll be flipping burgers the rest of your life" drilled into her head again and again throughout her entire youth so that by the time she graduated high school, there didn't even appear to be an alternative.
Excellent answer.
Close to 30 years in the trades I can say the skill and intelligence of so many people I have met is astounding .
Progressives doctrine dictates that the more intelligent you are, the better person you are.
lmfao
There is an exception to one thing here guys!The IQ test is comprised of four intellectual index abilities. Perceptional reasoning, verbal comprehension, working memory, and processing speed. Working memory and processing speed don't necessary measure reasoning ability. so let's say you have a high reasoning score which are you're PRI VCI(innate ability index) and low processing speed and working memory. YOU can accommodate that with technology and possibly improve it to some degree.. Someone like Thomas edison changed the world and was recognized to be very slow but very brilliant. I would say that, that would be the only exception with someone with an average IQ. Bite-sized Philosophy What do you think?
processing speed is a form of intelligence.... processing speed measures the ability to absorb and manipulate data.
Thomas Edison changed the world because he stole half or more of what he claimed to invent.The problem with your idea though, is that by the time someone who is "slow" figures out how to implement his ideas in praxis, someone else might have already achieved that very same goal much faster and efficiently. You'll always be a step behind basically.
+cueballB A person with slow processing speed combined with high perceptional reasoning would take longer to figure things out when given the same exact information in a "clean" setting in which all the information is easy to understand and notice, but in a "dirtier" setting, like the real world, their higher perceptional reasoning would allow them to get useful information from what they see/hear/feel faster. They would be able to accumulate information faster, and might be able to solve many problems faster than someone with a higher processing speed. But it would depend on the type of problem.
Do you think someone with a high processing speed and working memory but low vci and pri, would have the same abilities of someone that is high vci and pri BUR low WMI AND PSI? i dont think so.. sure it may take a bit longer to get his work gone and may have to put in more effort and of course he may not be Bill gates or anything. but can he hold a job in IT? or engineering job? possibly with passion and work ethic of course....
john soto Everyone with an iq from 105 to 115, which is average, can do most jobs, as long as their motivated, work hard and are conscientious.
I work on computer systems: I've done development, operations, management, support. I will always remember working with a guy who wasn't "the sharpest pencil in the box"; but he was well valued and paid by the company he worked for. What he had, that was more valuable than intelligence was persistence and integrity to a very high degree. Whatever he did, he kept meticulous records of, and whenever repeating something, he would cross check to make sure he got it right. And if somethng went wrong, he would not try and fudge anything: so often I have had to fix messy technical problems with the barest of clues(!). In his case, it was like driving down a highway with clear signposting everywhere! The focus was on finding the problem and fixing it, and recording all that detail, so that it wouldn't go wrong again...
As a Steel Mill Worker/4500 Ton Press Operator. Forging Steel/Alloys for a living. Once again, Thank You Doc.
This mindset that artisans and tradesmen are "of lesser intellect" has always been absurd to me. You can be a fucking welder with a 140 IQ. So what? Some people are better at working with their hands than with working in a non-practical model or framework. Doesn't make them dumb in the least. Matter of fact, I've often found that those very same people fare far better when it comes to practical, logical decision making and problem solving in the physical world than those of "superior intellect." You have motherfuckers who can steamroll through equation after equation but can hardly change a tire or fix a leaky roof. So put that ego on the backburner. It does a "genius" no favours.
He also assumes that a person with a higher IQ, 30 points higher than yours, would necessarily want to pursue a more intellectually demanding career like "law." Really? Seems to me a more intelligent person would avoid it like the plague, knowing he or she will be perpetually locking horns with their own morality and probably lose their soul in the process. A highly intelligent person, one burdened by morality or creativity, would steer clear of a lot of abstraction-dominated careers.
+Robgoren - EXACTLY, man! I always think this sort of thing when I hear Peterson talk. He tends to place too much emphasis on IQ guiding these things, and not enough on socio-economic status & individual temperament. Coming from a middle-class family that pushes, supports, & priveleges you to keep up their middle-class economic status has just as much to do (and maybe more) with people "succeeding" in college as their true intelligence levels. For awhile now, college has been full of people who value earning money above anything else, and have never been particularly intersted in, or motivated by, learning, knowledge & wisdom. It all comes down to, "Well I wanna have an impressive car & house, don't I?!"
ModernPlague When I read through law books or some of these great works of philosophy, all I hear is "ineffable twaddle," in the words of Stephen Frey. When I pore over books on carpentry, or auto mechanics, plumbing, electrical engineering, I'm always in awe. I'm not arguing one form of intelligence is superior to the other; I'm just sick of the arrogance of these people pretending to intellectual superiority. It's a joke.
One of the smartest guys I know (Mensa smart) worked with his hands. He took all kinds of tests for IQ and scored near the 160 mark (I don't remember the actual number). He could have gone to college and pretty much breezed through any degree he wanted.
Instead, he worked with his hands, owned his home, had time to hunt and fish when ever he wanted to, and enjoyed life. When people told him he was throwing his life away, his response was always "I have everything I could ever want. Why would I mess with perfection and needlessly complicate my life?"
On the flip side, I currently work with a man who is mechanically brilliant. He can fix just about anything, knows on a gut level how the machinery we use works, and has repaired a great deal in the field with improper tools and no spare parts (often times never having actually laid eyes on the guts of the machine before). He's an asset to our company, a genius in his own right... and a high school dropout. We're very lucky to have him.
IQ is alright I guess. I'm up in the 120 range, from what the tests said in high school (I say range because as you age your IQ changes so it could be lower or higher by now). Me, I would rather have a guy beside me who can turn wrench like a savant and can barely spell half the words in this TL;DR post than some posh, book smart person with no practical experience or raw talent.
"Show me an astrophysicist and I'll show you someone who can't change a tire." -- IForgetWho
This is absolutely true. I had this happen. I was pretty smart and I prized the academic world, then I got really smart through personal breakthroughs, nutrition, and energy work and suddenly I realized that a low-key life was the only way not to literally lose your own soul but also to prevent yourself from an early death.
Well, he talks with small layer of abstraction ;)
Very astute commentary by Jordan, which is no surprise.
Beautifully said.
Trades people are subservient? Sounds like that questioner has not had any interaction with a plumber especially when you're up to your ankles in water after your pipes have frozen.
I worked at a grocery store near the #1 Ivy League University in the world. At the salad bar I was repeatedly called up for help. There was a pile of plastic bowls and a pile of plastic lids. The PhD level twats would repeatedly, repeatedly take a lid, fill it with salad, pudding, okra, dressing, croutons etc. then try to put another lid on top making this UFO looking mess. These imbeciles could not figure it out. I know "blue collar" people who build houses, do more complicated math, know common sense and make beautiful things. Education is dumbing down creativity and common sense, particularly doing things in a unique way. Academia prefers to believe in total bullshite, apply it, fail then write books and make RUclips clips about their curiosity and commentary on said failures.
Must have been gender studies students
Who else wants to see Jordan Peterson engage in a long form discussion about manual work and its potential roll in a meaningful life? I, for one, want to see the virtues of the manual trades put in Petersonian language, placed rightly into their position in the Petersonian philosophical framework.
I think Matthew B. Crawford would be the perfect conversation partner for Peterson on this topic. He's a brilliant academic capable of airtight, very high level, philosophical argumentation.
Doing a trade that produces a tangible effect can often be much satisfying than intellectual jobs which do not.
Or you could be a farmer like me, and have all the problems of both blue and white collars.
Devin Nunes, one of the best, smartest Congressmen, was/is a farmer.
Devin ---- Oh for the life of a farmer. All you have to do is farm.
I'm not surprised that question came from a woman
yep
indeed
I'm curious. Why is that?
Mustaf Ahmed Because literally all 'western' women choose to do cushy white collar jobs, and have had no experience with actual physical labour.
Ah. Well, in that case, this makes a lot of sense.
best thing i ever did was go in the trade side of things,would do it all over again,actually in the middle of my career i went on management side of things,now i do both,love it,you meet good people on your way up and make good friends.... in a nut shell
College degree here. Left a pharmaceutical research position to start a roofing and remodeling business.
I'd never go back to the matrix and enrich Investors and shareholders under the guise of "being intellectually superior".
People treat me at times as if I'm just a dumb grunt, but just let them be. I have a full life and don't need to prove myself to arrogant strangers
The downsides to trades of course being low social status, inconsistent work, and relative low pay. Never mind the physical toll it takes.
Weird. I see college graduates working minimum wage retail jobs while the union tradesperson makes $50k a year.
Upsides: No one cares if your politically incorrect, you gain a better understanding of the world, you grow up fast, you understand responsibility, you lack entitlement, you gain character, you become physically fit, but the downsides are also true.
Those "downsides" aren't even true. Consistent work & high pay are common in plumbers, airplane mechanics, and many other of them evil non-university jobs. How dare anyone not waste 4 years on a literature degree! :O
Did you watch the video? Good tradespeople are in high demand and can make a lot of money (you've never hired a plumber if you think they're cheap). Low social status only due to the misconceptions of people like you.
Actually trades are well paid and there is always work for skilled trades.
Somewhat depressing
why?
Why on earth is it depressing?
+Brian i never mentioned you or anyone else. i just think its depressing that i might not be smart enough to be good at the job(s) i want and theres nothing that can be done about it.
There's everything to be done about it. If you want to do something then figure it out. I know low IQ people that outperform people with 40 more IQ points. Just know you have to position yourself well and work hard.
Don't be!
I've worked several blue collar jobs for the last 25 years. My contemporaries and I only have one goal. Retire. As a blue collar worker you are bosses around by a bunch of office hitches who shuffle papers around all day and haven't the first four about the trade. They answer to their corporate masters and read their spreadsheets all day. At the first sign of economic trouble its the guy in the field that gets thrown out like trash. I could go on and on. Stay out of the trades. Period.
I used to teach horticulture and foods and nutrition (had a background in both fields) in several 2 year colleges (aka "trade schools") and I always told my students that if they were good, they would always have a job, even in "down" or "slow" times. Not everyone is suited for a University education, and the trades make some great money, if you know how to run a business. I now work in Nursery retail, (work for a family-owned 10 store garden center retail business) and have managed several of their stores. That, and landscaping are great jobs for women in particular, and you can do the "mommy job" thing of even a niche marketplace job of large pot design, drop the kids off at school, and work the morning through, and be home at 2-3 when the kids are back from school. I've seen a lot of women do it. I myself am the daughter of 2 landscape designers (my dad was also an arborist.) He took advantage of the GI bill and earned his degree that way, and my mom was self-taught, her ideas were more meadow-like (she was influenced by Rachel Carson) and my dad's were more traditional. So, I grew up in a household where we had a family-run business, many of the folks in our trade, whether landscaping, nursery retail, or nursery-greenhouse-growing have followed the family into the business. For us, it's all about the beauty of plants, and design. Veggies, flowers, gardens, I love it.