I would prefer a mix of both French, German and Swiss train running. French high speed links, with German and Swiss low speed trains to everywhere for the beginning and end of journeys, and all scheduled by a Swiss person.
I used to be a frequent traveller between Stuttgart and Paris back in 2017. There are 4 TGV services between those cities every day. Looking at your footage makes me want to travel to Paris in a TGV again. And with 3 hours 10 minutes, Paris is really just around the corner… By car it takes you at least 6 hours and you get crazy in the Paris traffic. And by plane, you need to add at least 2 hours at the airports and for getting into Paris. So, the TGV service is the best choice…and nothing beats 320 km/h on the ground 😊
I’m not surprised at all that the train didn’t make up the 15-minute delay between Strasbourg and Paris. The timetable already accounts for the 320kph line-speed and doesn’t allow any room for anything less than this speed!
"and doesn’t allow any room for anything less than this speed!" And IMHO that is the mistake. Always take delays into account, and it will be much easier to be in time.
@@mrm7058 that works for aviation but not trains IMO. Trains that aren't late can't arrive early at the platform because they'd take platform space for too long. And, unlike airplanes, they also can't run slower (to not arrive early) without slowing every train behind, thereby defeating the purpose.
It works on trains as long as there's *not* another train right in front of yours. And with a 15 minute delay, chances are another train used its scheduled slot on time and the delayed train finds itself behind it with near zero margin to recover the delay. Last time I had a slight delay in a TGV it was mostly recovered but not entirely. The "voice" (don't remember if it was the driver or train agent) told us that we could only recover 2/3 of the delay because we had caught up to the previous train. That was on the East line during mid day, not the real peak hours. It might be a lot less feasible on the Southeast line where trains run as low as 3 minutes apart during peak : absolutely zero margin to recover delays on this saturated line. But the good thing is that thanks to its structure (parallel model with many city bypasses) the French HSL network is quasi immune to cascading delays compared to the German network which is particularly prone to such snowballing delays along entire lines due to network's serial structure and station bottlenecks.
Currently the TGV is not certified to use the new high speed track between Ulm and Wendlingen. Once Stuttgart 21 is finished, 30 min will be cut on this route, making a Munich - Paris connection much more viable
Nice! The TGV is my favorite high speed train. And this is one of my favorite TGV routes. I still miss the old blue and silver livery though. The last TGV that had that was a first generation Duplex number 283. It went into renovation in May.
Prefer the German ICE - feel more spacious and modern (especially over longer distances), however no-one can deny the TGV is by far much more iconic 🙌, France's vision and ability to build up these lines is remarkable
German railway is primarily known for frequent delays. The railway known for frequent trains is Switzerland, not Germany. I lived in both counties for more than 20 years each and know the systems from ecperiece.
I love how this person said that German TRAINS are great and everyone is complaining about delays and the frequency. German trains are some of the best IMO, but we should run them on french HSR lines scheduled by swiss people
Thank you for a very interesting video. One small criticism. The improvements along the Rheintal line south of Karlsruhe are ongoing, and to the despair of the Swiss are taking a VERY long time. I have seen two thousand and THIRTY-five as the estimated date of completion. (Remember the disastrous tunnel collapse at Rastatt just south of Karlsruhe.)
The improvements on the Rhine Valley rail line have been taking so absurdly long due to the usual delays that no German construction project seems to be immune to and has upset the Swiss Railways to such an extent, that they want to ban trains from Germany going into the Swiss network, as they are a source of disruption to their highly coordinated time table... and I don't blame them. Punctuality, maintenance and reliability on the German rails have been in steady decline and only recently can we see investments being made into a system that has, in part, been run against a wall.
@@ThisWontFly Thank for your response. I entirely agree. I am British but visit both Switzerland and Germany fairly regularly and read German language railway journals.
@@jandron94 Primarily facilitates the main north-south route which runs North Sea Ports-Karlsruhe-Basel(Switzerland)-Gotthard-Italy. But for the 60 kms. south of Karlsruhe to just north of Offenburg the East-West line on which Thibault was travelling uses the same tracks! In particular Thibault's train passed through the notorious bottleneck at Rastatt. There a few years ago a new bypass tunnel under construction collapsed. The existing line was blocked for SEVEN WEEKS.
@@Fan652w Thanks for the info ! Maybe I am wrong but my feeling is that for the German authorities improving cross-border connections is not a priority as compared to some domestic oddities. Let me explain : Stuttgart and Cologne are quite closer to Paris by HS train than they are from the federal capital Berlin. The French HS lines (to Belgium and Strasbourg) are clearly showing some sort of imbalance in terms of HS "efficiency" in Germany. People from Marseille would find it very upsetting having a slower access to Paris than to Barcelone, the same for Lyon and Milan, Lille and London, Toulouse and Madrid, etc. I would really like to know what is the German federal and regional authorities mindset regarding cross-border connections, as well the one of the population in those parts of Germany. Do they really care ? Is Germany with its 84 million people more self-centered in terms of transit need than neighbouring countries ? French authorities were not reluctant to expand their TGV network to close neighbours including by true HS lines. Do background "obscure" national economy strategies come into play ?
Can’t wait to see the next video on the Trenitalia intercity from Milan to the cinque terre! I recognised the day of your video because of the cruise ship that was in the Genoa port, unfortunately that day there were two deadly accidents on the Genoa highways
brilliant share, I`ve only ever used TGV from Basel to Paris and it`s brilliant, still lovely to see things through your lenses.Thanks so much for sharing.
If you look at the way the population is distributed across the country then France and Germany are quite different. France has not only a way lower population density, but additionally the population is very concentrated into several metropolitan areas with lots of empty land in between then. In Germany on the other hand, the population is way more spread out accross the country, making it way more complicated to connect everything efficiently, especially with high speed lines In France you just connect metropolitan area with metropolitan area with a high-speed line through the empty land in between. In Germany there's big city next to big city. Especially in the northwestern Part. So the different systems kinda make sense. The geography of France is just way better suited for very fast high speed connections.
Underrated comment, spot on. This is also the reason why speeds like 320 don’t make much sense in Germany, as you would only be able to drive at that speed for a few minutes before the train needs to decelerate for the next stop. Doesn’t change travel time, but drives costs up. Speeds of around 200-230 are pretty much the best mix of price and fastness for many relations in GER.
To be honest, i definetely prefer a system, like in Germany. In Austria, where I live, we have a mix-system between Germany and the Switzerland. Regular trains tacts are every 30 or 60 or seldom every 120 minutes and whereever it's possible, there are connections between two line with few minutes waiting time, like in St. Pölten, where all trains (local and Intercity) arrive between minute 55 and 00 and leave the station between 02 and 07. In some stations, the connections could be improved, but its already very good.
It's not like we don't have a tact in Germany. Nearly all trains regional and long distance run every 30, 60 or 120 min. Not always exact 30/60min because the ICE Hamburg-Berlin for example has extra stops every 60min. But this tact is useless if your train is delayed and 5-10min connection time is planned
Enjoyable video as always, thanks Thibault. For me personally, I’m less worried about high speed and prefer a network that has plenty of routes, both main and branch line, and good inter-connect ability between trains, trams and buses. Switzerland scores highly on that. If we want to get passengers out of their cars and on to public transport then they must be able to see the advantages.
Agreed, but high speed lines are in the same way important to make trains more attractive, namely on larger distances. I'm Livingstone in Switzerland and e.g.. miss fast connections in the East - West corridor, between Zurich sind Bern, Lausanne sind Geneva (also with respect to connection to the French LGV network). Also Zurich - Stuttgart and Zurich - Munich is a catastrophy, mainly to the German lack of high speed lines there.
I agree with you that the ideal is a network with plenty of routes. The crucial point about Switzerland is that all modes of transport are timetabled to interconnect. You really can go from anywhere to anywhere anytime.
@@goldfing5898 i agree that all lines going from Switzerland to Germany are catastrophic, but the blame rests firmly with the Germans. The Rheintal reconstruction will take until 2035, while the lines to Munich and Stuttgart desperately need to be double-tracked throughout. Most Swiss know that for journeys within their country their trains are the best in Europe, even though they are not very fast. However Zurich to Bern is 122 kms in 56 minutes.
A few days ago I travelled from Bordeaux to Saint-Jean-de-Luz (in the Basque country) with a TGV Inoui, and since it came from Paris-Montparnasse using the newest LGV, the train was from 2019, and in first class, although the seat was not as great as the older interior, the seat pitch and the equipment (table, light, recline...) were incredible!
Merci beaucoup pour le reportage. Ça me rappelle mon premier voyage en Europe. Premier trajet en train: Paris-Munich. C'était en 2004, pas de LGV. Train de nuit, opéré par DB. Départ vers 22:00 de la gare de l'Est, et on a pas pu avoir de couchettes, elles étaient déjà toutes réservées, on a du se contenter de dormir assis dans notre compartiment alors qu'on avait déjà un décalage horaire de 6h dans le corps car on était arrivé à Paris en avion le matin et qu'on s'est promené dans la ville toute la journée. Et après cette nuit sans trop de sommeil, on a visité Munich où nous sommes arrivés vers 9:00, c'est dire que le trajet avait pris environ 11h. Ça c'est un vrai voyage !!!!
Greetings from Salvador, Bahia, Brazil! Both France and Germany are fantastic countries, I've been on both with my wife but I still prefer the German way of doing things, including railways and trains and all other means of transport.
You prefer the German Railways? So you prefer delays? Swiss are so upset by the delays of DB, they have stopped some international journeys between the 2 countries.
I prefer true high speed network. Sure you have less flexibility but then you need to plan accordingly. Time is valuable. Living in Germany and constantly facing delays, slow service and shared rail network with cargo is simply frustrating. This is a major issue for me when traveling by train in Germany
Nice review! One question: 5:44 How did you count the length? Munich - Strasbourg is about 400 km en route and 290 km if it were direct. (so not 287 km and even the route via the Geislinger Steige, which you took is about 10 km longer) Strasbourg - Paris is ca. 400 km direct and as you said 439 km en route. Your duration is the new one via the new high speed line, but the distances are just weird. Correct would be: Munich to Strasbourg (400 km): 3h46 Strasbourg to Paris (439 km): 1h48 Which is obviously still crazy. Shorter by 40 km, but longer by 2 hours.
Well more stops and slower lines. For now the TGV dies notnuse the stuttgart ulm line either. (Saves c. 15mins). Stuttgart 21 will save another c. 20mins. The ulm augsburg line is then still missing, which would bring paris and munich towards 4.30min or less
You could rephrase that like this: between Munich and Strasbourg there are many large cities that deserve HSR connections, while between strasbourg and Paris there's just empty land
A new high-speed track (250 km/h) has been opened as recently as December 2022 between Ulm an Stuttgart. It's part of the Stuttgart 21 project and saves 15 minutes travel time from Munich. However, not all the high-speed trains use it, and the TGVs seem to still run on the old tracks, as far as I can see. Which surprises me, because I've heard that SNCF doesn't like to run more trains to Munich, because Stuttgart - Munich is so slow :D As soon as Stuttgart 21 is in full operation, it will save another 15 minutes. Let's hope that this will give us an improved connection from Munich to Paris as well!
Im "TGV le grand check up" video from France Reportage & Aviation they show how they are now fitting new reversible seats for first class TGV sections so passengers can traven forrward. It is unfortunate that Canada has abandonned reversible seats at a time France is going baclk to them. We now have to ttavel backwards in Canada. . Not surprised you didn't catch up time. And you were lucky to be able to maintain 320 and not be slowed down by traffic ahead of you.
I used this route and beyond from Paris to Wienna twice. Paris-Stuttgart, then change of train Stuttgart-Münich-Salzburg-Wienna. Very comfortable trains and nice restaurant facilities.
Great video. I use this service and the nightjet to Venice each year to go skiing.. Travel from Bristol to Venice and back by train. Absolutely love this journey
5:50 yeah thats true. We have a network that reaches everywhere but still we need to build more high speed lines. Sadly in the past our rail network didn’t get any investment…
Now you can save 15min between Stuttgart and Ulm, and another 15min when S21 is in use. A new High Speed Line between Ulm-Augsburg is also plannend. At this time the TGV can run on the new Highspeed Line Wendlingen-Ulm because he needs a ETCS Level 2 Update. So in a few years the TGV can run 30min faster than now and maybe 40-45 in the future when the part between Ulm-Augsburg is finished.
In fact, Germany and France had a different approch regarding High speed line and that might be, at least in part, to the fact that in France, everything is center around Paris, however, in Germany there is a lot of big cities bur none of then had the importance of Paris So France decided to build high speed line to connect Paris with others city (with the exception of the line from Dole to Mulhouse that do not connect Paris and his probably under used) and Germany that decided instead to upgrade existing line to 200 - 250 km/h when possible and build new high speed line only when upgrading existing lines warn't an efficient option ... Also, it's true that there is only one direct train from München to Paris, however you could easily use an ICE to Stuttgart and from there connect to a service to Paris as I did a few years ago and I'm not sure that the numbers of passengers that goes all the way between the two cities justify more direct service
The number of passengers will certainly increase as soon as the high speed lines between München and Stuttgart are finally completed and in service, including Stuttgart 21. Slow train connections are of course unttractive in comparison to plane and car travel.
@@goldfing5898People in Munich are problably much more attracted by Austria, Italy, Coratia, Spain, etc rather than France. And for the French Munich is rarely an obvious holliday destination (as is the rest of Germany). So no real urgency to upgrade that rail route.
Don't confuse the *layout* / *shape* of the network (mostly radial in France, grid-like in Germany) and the *model* of high-speed lines : "strings of pearls" / *serial* in Germany and *parallel* / *backbone* in France (like in Spain too). The parallel model used in France has lots of bypass tracks around cities to allow full speed non-stop services. A Paris > Marseille service would accelerate out of Paris to its cruise speed and would only start to decelerate once approaching Marseille's tunnel. While the serial model used in Germany forces all trains to run through all cities along their routes. On top of the lack of high-speed lines, the "serial" model used in Germany is one of the main causes of both delays and slow average speed. The city center stations being major bottlenecks, trains are forced to follow each other and delays add up. A single delay on the line impacts every single train behind. While with the parallel / backbone model in France or Spain, a delay in one station would only impact the next train to this particular station and not any of the many other trains on the line to other destinations. It allows for much more robust operations. P.S. As you probably have guessed, serial and parallel refer initially to electrical circuitry. On a serial circuit, electricity follows a linear path, any breakage of an element on the circuit cuts the whole circuit. On a parallel circuit, electricity continues to flow via other paths if an element is broken or turned off. It's just applied to high-speed lines.
@@jandron94 I concur, but I didn't include the legacy network / upgraded lines at the end of HSL's in my coverage on purpose. Because, almost by definition, regular / legacy passenger lines are serial. Just one thing : the idea that Paris kinda stagnates is mostly made up by a confusion between Paris proper's (intramuros) slight dip in population and Paris' agglomeration as a whole. Recently Paris urban area officially reached ~15 million inhabitants (14.8 in 2022 with a common underestimation) and its economic portion of the national GDP increased again. The effects of Brexit relocations played a role and the overblown "Paris exodus" trend substantially reversed. Every single person that I know who migrated out of Paris has moved back after quite a rude awakening about the life they dreamt of in regions. Especially when they discovered the need for cars, their climate impact living in low density housing, the many unforeseen costs, etc. Moral to the story : decisions made on a whim during exceptional times tend to be the worst and costliest. Are you sure for Marseille that what's planned is an underground station and tunnel right under St Charles? The time penalty would be substantial and the cost pretty steep. Le Mans doesn't have an on-line out-of-town station, but there are connections to the legacy network and downtown station on both sides of the "eye" shape formed by the bypass, East and West of the city at a fairly small distance. The central France North South corridor is kept as potential new main HSL (Orleans Bourges Clermont-Ferrand St Étienne) to double as a second Southeastern line and offer access to Lyon from the South and to the Med HS line. As the Paris Lyon trunk is saturated yo the brim and demand largely exceeds capacity. (Also the current issue with the lack of available slots for potential competitors) Plus, I'm pretty sure Clermontians would harshly disagree about the legacy line being acceptable. 😉
The connection is crazy good to take a connection to London, meaning you can make the connection Munich-London in under 10 hours (if you take into account the lengthy Eurostar boarding process) and taking into account that you leave Munich quite early, its perfect if you want ur arrival time to be not to late in the day so you can still enjoy a chill pub evening :) I also gotta give this route (and the eurostar) credit for its insane steadiness during such high speed journeys. You feel like sitting in a normal room all the time.
Along the "LGV Est européenne" there is a signal of the European system called ETCS Level 2 approximately every 4 signals of the TVM 430 (the classic system used along the French high-speed lines as well as on the section in English territory covered by the Eurostars connecting Paris and Brussels with London). Could someone kindly explain to me why the signals of the European system called ETCS Level 2 are rarefied compared to the signals of the TVM 430? Thank you for your attention
ETCS L2 works with in-cab signalling so no track-side signals are required. Some lines still have them, but if you have them they're much rarer than conventional signals
@@jan-lukas In fact, I am referring to the signals (signs, billboards, tables, billboards or whatever they are called) which delimit the sections of the French TVM 430 system and the European system called ETCS Level 2. If you pay attention, you will notice that along the LGV Est européenne there are 'is a scoreboard of the European system called ETCS Level 2 approximately every 4 scoreboards of the TVM 430. The tables of the European system called ETCS Level 2 are generally coupled to the tables of the TVM 430. No one has been able to explain to me why the tables of the European system called ETCS Level 2 are rarefied compared to the tables of the SNCF distancing and safety system.
I hate it when seats are not aligned with a window. Inexcusable in First Class. 👍🏻🏴 Obviously from a passenger’s viewpoint the German timetabling is preferable.
I am amazed that Thibault did not comment on the windows point. The Swiss seem now to be the only people who realize that seats should be aligned with windows. To state the obvious, people want to look at the scenery!
A very insightful comment on the different railway operations in France and Germany. As with many other things, Spain is a bad copy of France. It has even more high speed lines but less frequent services, even more airline style practices and awful connections with regional trains.
'airline style practices' include the need to check in. The only other high-speed system in Europe which requires check-ins are the services through the channel tunnel. These are possibly justified on security grounds.
That's part of the Paris-Bratislava High Speed Line. It's currently in construction, with over half the stages complete. They need a higher speed link from Vienna to Bratislava and fill in some of the gaps between Vienna to Paris. It's going to be awesome when it's done, as I'm from Bratislava and visit it. Can fly to Paris now!
@@chrisgironde6669 The ROI on Bordeaux/Lyon, Nantes/Lyon, TOulouse/Lyon or TOulouse/Montpellier are not good. French gouvernement refuses to fund a project with less than 6% of ROI. THey don't want to do like Spain, with a massive HS network but too many empty trains. At the end it's the tax payer who pays.
The Interconnexion Sud used by the TGV over the RER C south of Paris is congested with a single track connection to the TGV network at each end. About 400 million were spent in the last few months to add another track and flyover junctions. This should save 2 minutes per trip and allow 2 East-West TGV/hour instead of 1.
One thing to note about the german high speed system is that it is very much still an incomplete system, as germany's population is spread between far more cities than france's population is, meaning you cant make a functional network with 4 lines. And germany is still building multiple high speed lines this decade, and planning to reach 6000 km of high speed lines (france is a bit below 3000 km of high speed lines now)
5:31 Interesting your brought this up. I've read about different reasons why Germany's ICE is relatively slow. One of them was that a lot of towns in a lot of the ''landkreise'' (districts) wanted an ICE service, which makes the trains stop a lot more often than TGVs and confines them to conventional lines. Another reason is the population density and cities being a lot closer to eachother. If you ask me, Germany could do a bit of both: Have ICE's stop only in the largest cities and use the intercity service for smaller towns inbetween, which is already low-key happening with the ICE Sprinter-service between Munich and Berlin.
The thing is, even the sprinter services are not significantly faster since the ICEs need to slow down anyway when approaching the many cities and towns along the way. Building high speed tracks by-passing them would not be possible due to 1. Cost, 2. Why would the cities or communes or states approve high speed lines going through them if it would reduce the frequency of ICE services there. Even the Cologne to Frankfurt high speed line has stops in 2 smaller towns since the state of Rheinland-Pfalz wouldn't approve otherwise. I think it's not that bad since smaller places are not ignored, but it does mean less speed across the country
France is quite a bigger country. The average "High Speed" rail travel distance is maybe around 500km in France whereas in Germany maybe less than 300km. And with real high speed (~300km/h) the Paris TGV hub strategy (thanks to its parisian suburb bypass) is more efficient and a real alternative to plane. And with futur HS lines (Bordeaux-Toulouse, Marseille-Nice, Perpignan-Montpellier, Lyon-Turin) that one Parisian central hub strategy will become even more relevant I think. Of course the "few" needing for instance to travel from Bordeaux to Marseille will find it a bit frustrating since they would prefer a Bordeaux-Toulouse-Marseille route in 3h rather than the current 6h Bordeaux-Massy-Marseille route. If unhappy they can still catch a plane. German strategy is different : it suits their own needs, it has its logics. The French HS network as any other network is an "expensive and slow" work in progress (since the 80s) so it needs to be considered on the very long run : in 2040 it will be fantastic I guess with all upcoming lines and stations upgrades, new TGV design, new HS lines, new services, "cheaper" fares... I am optimistic.
It's not that more cities want service, the problem is that the population is spread out over many semi-large cities that deserve the service individually. All of these together then result in much longer travel times. Another problem is the density of Germany, while in France you can easily build mostly straight HSR lines, in Germany you constantly have to weave around cities and towns of all sizes
5:46 This huge discrepancy in travel speed is not only due to different "philosophy", as you write, but because nearly no part of the planned high-speed line between Munich and Stuttgart had already been completed at the time of your journey. In the meantime, 60 kilometers of the new high speed line were finished, allowing 250 km/h, and there is more to come.
France and Germany have indeed a very different philosphy regarding Highspeed traintravel… France‘s HSR is very Paris centered and the tracks are exclusivily used by TGV trains, while in Germany HS Trains share the tracks with regional and freight trains and the system also connects smaller cities to eachother
That defeats the purpose of high-speed trains... There's no fast long distance in Germany. A TGV can run Paris > Marseille *and* *back* while an ICE runs Munich > Hamburg, a shorter distance. The point of high-speed trains is to compete with air travel, not to act as slightly faster regional trains. The absence of city bypass and non-stop services negatively impacts the ICE network.
I used to travel from Paris to Strasbourg for 7 years on ICE and TGV. I prefered TGV, because their seat are more comfortable. The ICE seat were as hard as low-class planes seat. For a long trip, it's a thing for my back, and being rested, ready for work at the arrival.
I prefer French solution, cause they separate the high speed routes almost completely from the regional service. The routs in Germany are often overcrowded by trains, this leads to an unreliable service. German trains are really on time and they get really often canceled. I’m living in Germany and through my experience there is on thing everyone is agreeing on: the service of DB ist a catastrophe.
Comfortable run is due to the fact that the line is designed for a max speed of 350 kph in the future (if energy costs could be lowered). The German style of service is nice but could be complementary to the French style. With enough bypasses and junctions, both could be possible. The German service at least avoids building stations in the middle of nowhere to connect for real with local services.
Train coming from Germany were often in late at the arrival at Strasbourg... And regaining the time by higher speed costs much... So german delays aren't always regain. TGV run usually on their proper lines, that's the feature you don't like instead of the german lines. Its a political choice... but you can have also in France many regional trains to go in smaller cities.
Really brilliant video, but I wouldn't want to choose between the French trie high speed rail service and the German model that takes you more places (actually, the Swiss truly take you anywhere). I think if anything, there is a case for a segregated high speed network that serves important railway hubs where passengers then can connect to more regional/local trains that will take them onwards to their final destination.
I take the SB-Paris quite often, and when it almost always arrives late from Frankfurt (actually it gets delayed in Mannheim), I don't think they bother too much to catch up on small delays (
It is a hole, literally. The whole front has been knocked down and has been a hole in the ground for the past two years. The train shed/platforms are grubby and overcrowded, hardly any facilities. I was there last week, 13/8/23.
so many people does not like DB but the service it gives is really dense as you said. You can find ice's everytime and also regional trains are working
On the point you raise six minutes into the video, I much prefer the 'go anywhere anytime' approach of the Germans to the fast but not very frequent approach of the French. It is noteworthy that Switzerland and Austria to the south of Germany, and Belgium, Netherlands and Denmark to the north, all prefer the go anywhere anytime approach. In Britain where I live our trains are generally more frequent than in France, and are often fast, but 'anytime anywhere' they are certainly not. Poor services Sundays and holidays, and far too many quite import towns and areas not served by train. (And in Britain, unlike in continental Europe, buses generally do not connect wit trains.)
It seems buses are generally terrible in the UK in my very limited experience, especially outside London, probably the worst I've experienced in Europe really. But I guess that's what you get when you privatize a public service.
@@dijikstra8 I am British, but I agree with your comments. I am lucky that I live in Nottingham, one of only eight towns in Britain where the buses are still publicly owned. Our bus service is known to be good compared to the rest of Britain. (NB Northern Irish buses are neither privatized nor deregulated.)
@@freewal I do not agree. The great thing about trains in German speaking areas and the Benelux is that (unlike with the aeroplane) you do not have to book in advance. Eg if you live in Hamburg but suddenly find you need to get to Munich, you can just hurry to the Hauptbahnhof.
@@Fan652w In France you have to book online, for TGVs and Intercity but not for other trains. The thing is, it's easy to book via app. The booking stuff allows to guarantee a seat. I could not imagine the mess if there was no booking.
There is stil only one direct connection, but if you don´t mind to change train during the trip, you get 8 schedules, with the last train leaving München at 16.45. And surprisingly taking less 21 minutes than the direct trip.
You made a little error, or maybe used a wrong turn of phrase : the French high-speed *network* is not low frequency at all, it has the highest frequencies in Europe. With trains running as low as every 3 minutes apart each way on peak on the busiest HS lines (and even a bit outside peak). The difference is that trains, or should I say *services* are much more dedicated per destination. So there's up to a train every 3 minutes but for different destinations, usually non-stop, to maintain top speed and to bypass cities. When 15 trains depart one after the other, they almost all have different destinations : Lyon, Marseille, Montpellier, Grenoble, Chambery, Geneva... Or Tours, Poitiers, Rennes, Nantes, Bordeaux, Angoulème, Châtelleraut, la Rochelle... I really don't like the German model for that utter lack of direct non-stop and fast services (except between like Köln and Frankfurt, and even then they find a way to make 3 or 4 stops 😱). OK it's practical for shorter journeys to smaller cities but, as much as I love trains, this is not HSR's purpose and I would be flying in Germany for longer distances. As it takes way too long to reach the destination on any mid or long distance ICE. The "string of pearls" or "serial" model used in Germany is a speed destroyer and capacity wrecker. It's also much more prone to cascading delays as trains are stuck behind each other with the way too many station stops acting as sequential bottlenecks. (cf current situation). And it gives way too much weight to smaller cities that have a crazy amount of services per day, while the bunch of passengers traveling between the major cities have to endure much longer journeys due to the excessive number of stops. Even the "sprinter" services do stop quite a lot, there's virtually no non-stop services. The French network allows to transport huge numbers of passengers and really competes head-on with airlines. It also allows long distance daily commuting from / to cities 150 to 400 km away and punctual commuting (ie weekly) to / from the other side of the country. So much that there's a saturation issue on the LGV's which poses a serious problem for new competitors to enter the market. Having more stops would only decrease service and capacity on the major destinations that are already heavily traveled. The specificity of the French network, akin to the Spanish one, is the presence of many large bypass tracks around cities, including Paris, Lyon, Le Mans, Avignon, Reims, etc. A service running Paris > Strasbourg doesn't need to slow down nor cross any city center along the way, same for Lille > Marseille, Bordeaux > Tours, etc. As for many ICE city pairs in Germany, TER services can be just as fast, like Paris > Le Havre in 2 hours or Paris > Rouen in 1h30 or Strasburg > Mulhouse run at 200kph. Having a bunch of stops defeats the purpose of a high-speed trains... And because of these many stops, mid to long distance ICE services have low average speeds and are scheduled frequently to compensate the fairly low numbers of available seats between the most distant and / or important destinations on each train. The French and Spanish HSR networks offer the equivalent of planes on rails, or A380 on rails for the TGV : super fast and high capacity. The ICE network is only fast if you travel on a real high-speed stretch with a sprinter service between the 2 or 3 closest destinations of the service. Frankly, it is painful to see ICE 3's run such low average speed services on longer journeys. During the time taken by an ICE to run Munich > Hamburg, a TGV would have traveled Paris > Marseille > Paris, hauling more passengers on more than twice the distance. What I was referring to as the "string of pearls" / "serial" in Germany vs the "parallel" / "backbone" model in France and Spain is entirely different from the layout / shape of the networks (grid in Germany, mostly radial in France and Spain). On that subject of layout, the French network lacks transverse lines, like Nantes > Limoges > Clermont > Saint Étienne > South of Lyon > Grenoble, connecting with both the Paris Bordeaux and Lyon Marseille lines. And the much awaited Montpellier > Narbonne > (Perpignan > Spain) > Toulouse > Bordeaux. But that's an entirely different subject.
As for the train delay in the video: I've noted that when drivers talk on the PA to announce the speed (which is quite rare), it's usually because the train hasn't yet accelerated to its cruise speed at a location where it is normally running at full speed (or accelerating). And in your case, I suspect that you were maintained a bit longer than normal at 160 before pushing to 320kph. Probably because there was another train in front, that was on time and ran before your train. So they might have maintained 160 a short while longer than usual for separation purposes and then it wasn't possible to recover the delay. Or maybe the driver was simply super happy to finally flex his legs on a true and unobstructed high-speed line after hours of "meh" speeds, frequent braking and stops. 🤣
Lovely video and information. Thankyou. I was wondering if there is regular IC or EC (non high-speed service) between Munich or other German cities to Paris that run every two hours or so? Thank-you 😊.
The answer to your question is (in practical terms) 'no'. There are however Thalys high-speed trains (I will use the old name to avoid confusion) about every two hours from Cologne to Paris via Brussels. There are (I think) 4 through high-speed trains per day in each direction Paris to Frankfurt(Main).
@@jan-lukas I take your point entirely. But, as another commentator has already pointed out, you should allow plenty of time for the connection at Stuttgart if travelling towards Paris. Unfortunately DB's punctuality leaves a lot to be desired.
As soon as the TGV is certified for ETCS 2 in Germany, it will be 15 minutes faster than in this video because it will be able to take the new high speed line between Ulm and Wendlingen (approx. 30km east of Stuttgart) with a max speed of 250kph. German ICE run this new line since its opening in 12/22 and it’s just amazing compared to the old windy and mountaineous line with speeds as low as 70kph. The smoothness of the new line is insane. Can’t wait to try out the TGV with its incredible ride calm and quality on that track. I take this route to Munich twice per week. From 12/24 on, TGV should be certified for ETCS 2 in Germany and I can’t wait to try it out on these tracks! Once the big project Stuttgart 21 is finished (currently tracked to open fully in 12/26) it should shave off another 20 mins from journey time cause then the high speed line won’t end in Wendlingen but go straight to the new underground through station in Stuttgart. This will enable travel times of just 5hrs or even a little less than 5hrs! Absolutely amazing!
It is interesting your train took the Ulm - Stuttagrt route over the alp via Geislingen. It seems like all the TGV trains on the German routes they are not equipped with the ETCS signalling system making them ineligible to use the latest high speed stretch of track in Germany. That being the stretch from Ulm via Wendlingen to Stuttgart - surprising really.
I would like to see also an upgrade of existing tracks to allow for faster and more reliable connections and higher frequencies as well. Like services that run at max speeds of 160 to 200km/h on existing connections. The tracks should be modified in that level crossings must be removed. If you could have an average speed of 140km/h at a high frequency without the need for reservations, that would be great.
1. Dedicated infrastructure is a must. 2. When running on "shared" infrastructure in order to serve the stations in the city centers, no less than 160 km/h should be acceptable. No slowing down and especially no stopping in the suburbs. Maximum priority, maybe some "dedicated" tracks that could (in case of construction works) be used by other trains. 3. Anything less than 320 km/h is not acceptable in 2023, when we are talking about traveling long distance (anything above 50 km). 4. A regular timetable with frequent services, so you do not have to search for trains, just know they depart every hour. You asked me to choose between Germany and France. That is a false dichotomy. The best high speed rail service is in Japan. Frequent service, high speeds, dedicated infrastructure. It is not about choosing between speed and frequency of service. Both can be achieved.
Interesting stuff. There really should be more trains per day on a route like this, at least 2 or 3. But since this was filmed in January 2022 I assume things might have already sped up a bit for these trains, like with the opening of the Ulm Wendlingen high speed line that'll be extended through Stuttgart once Stuttgart 21 is complete. When that's done that should hopefully make this train quite a bit speedier too. And in terms of high speed networks then both are quite impressive, but the German less centralised approach might work a bit better. We're following Germany's example with the railway investment in Denmark where I'm from. We may not have any high speed trains but there's already a 60km long high speed line south of Copenhagen and another 27km long one in the early stages of construction between Odense and Middelfart. Both of these are designed to relieve the existing mainlines where congestion is at a breaking point, while just being futureproofed for speeds at 250km/h. But what we inherrit from Germany in rail investment, we also do in Nimbyism as a high speed rail bridge over the Vejle Fjord was cancelled in November last year after 9 years of political limbo. This bridge was one of the most important pieces in a big puzzle to get a Swiss style takt between Denmark's 4 biggest cities, but now that has gone down the drain in favour of more motorways and tax cuts.
Год назад+2
Unfortunately this is an extension of the Paris Stuttgart connection, hence why only one direct train.
Super interesting question of network style; LGV-style (fast!), or fine web of many interconnections (slow!)? A fine web of interconnections is more robust to problems. Maybe the full-scale LGV on the other hand is less exposed to problems becasue of robust design? This question has indeed been ongoing when Sweden is in the making of upgrading the main routes, to meet the improved access via tunnel between Denmark and Germany. Sadly the sitting governement cancelled a well needed extensive passenger traffic on higher speed infrastructure, becasue of believed overprize. So the national maintainer then needed to break down their budget again, and results are that same amount will need to spent anyways, maintaining the existing two tracks with increaced demand for both passenger and freight volumes on the *same* tracks!
Great Video, and I totally agree with You concerning french service levels, the total lack of frequent trains on a regular schedule („cadencée“) something we have on virtually every route in Germany since 1991…. Ok, we do not have the very long stretches of High speed Lines: But given the very dense population in Germany, the hilly countryside in most parts of the country which makes a high speed line very expensive to build… There are many reasons for the lack of speed in Germany. The punctuality is an issue, too, this seems to be the downside of a network with the high frequency in our country. I have two points in which I disagree: First: As one can see in the Service Milano - Paris, a stiff competition is always better for travellers in form of frequence and service level. The monopoly of DB and SNCF in french-german rail service leeds to an insufficient service level with booked out trains for sometimes ridiculous price levels. One can not even choose ones seat on the train if an ICE is used, this is just not acceptable in 2023. And I really wish for a strong competitor on these routes. This is true for Thalys much more, but this a different story. Second: given that the first class leather seats in our ICEs aren‘t a success at all, I really find the TGV Duplex in every declination (original, Dasye, Océane) cramped, dated and uncomfortable with a seat pitch unworthy to be called first class. The seats are not much better than the aformentioned ICEs. And believe me I have spent hours on these Trains from Barcelona an Marseille to Munich in the extremes. The Bar Service is a joke and since the new sets seem virtually the same from the outside one has no hopes of a better design inside. But: Better trains with minor issues than no trains at all!
I think the Japanese system is better than either. More trains, cleaner, just as fast on the Shinkansen. Better food also. You just have to read and speak the language, or have someone who does who can ask for directions because it is so complicated.
I traveled few days ago on the LGV Est with a TGV Duplex and then a TGV Réseau: the ride quality at 320 km/h is really impressive, and I understand why the world speed record at 574 km/h was reached on this line. But, focusing on the interiors of the trains, I realized that the interiors of the german ICE and of the italian Frecciarossa are better
Trains in France replace planes, in Germany they replace cars. The French system is great if you want to travel from one large city to Paris and awful when you want to travel between other cities - and absolutely dismal if you want to travel to small towns. Let's suppose tomorrow we want to travel from Nantes to Bordeaux. They're in the top 10 of the largest cities in France. By car the distance is around 350 km. Trains run every every 60 to 120 mins depending on the time of the day. The ride will cost between 70 (very early trains only) to 170 euros and take between 4 and 5 hours. It takes so long because we first have to travel to Paris and change trains there which is a considerable detour. Now if we want to travel from Munich to Erfurt (which is #37 among Germany's cities), the distance is 400 km, ICE trains run every 30 minutes, the ride will take 2.5 hours and will cost around 90 euros. True, the train will probably be late but I definitely prefer the German concept.
You could have the Norwegian system where the high speed is exclusively for short commuter lines and the intercity routes are single tracked with 70km/h running
I have travelled to Paris in TGV from Ulm in the first class :) By far my best experiance ever (Apart from EuroStar). On time, fast and comfortable. What else do you need? :)
In theory the TGV could use the new high-speed link between Ulm and Wendlingen (near Stuttgart). But I heard the TGVs are not able to use the link due to technical reason. A Highspeed link between Ulm and Augsburg is in planning to fill the gap between Stuttgart and Munich.
Very nice Video! Of course the TGV is faster in France and of course we germans need to do better and build more Highspeed Lines, but well never be as fast as in France and the reason for this is that we stop more often. Of course 400 km without stop is great for the people who live in Straßburg and want to go to Paris, but the folks in between don't profit. That's okay as France isn't as densely populated. In Germany though, we cannot stop serving the abundance of major cities along the way. There's Augsburg, Karlsruhe, Stuttgart and so on and we usually go right into the city center instead of stopping along the Highspeed line like Aix-en-Provence TGV which is nowhere near Aix. Overall both networks are great but I can't stand Germans who are always complaining about DB telling me that everything is better in France without knowing anything about trains in General or about SNCF in particular.
All i know is the tgv duplex between hendaye and paris is not my favourite cause crowded even in winter and seats not that confortable. I hope to meet german Ice next winter. Thanks for another great vídeo!
While the breakdown of the travel time split between the German and the French railway system is correct in its essence, it's pretty disingenuous to use the beeline distance for the Munich to Strasbourg section while taking the actual distance on the rails for Strasbourg to Paris. Add to this that the TGV makes 4 stops in Germany whereas the only stop in France is Strasbourg. You also have to consider that the TGV isn't even using the fastest route in Germany as their rolling stock isn't equipped with ETCS which is required to access some of the highspeed sections on the route. With all this taken into consideration, the actual travel time and distance on the german half is 3h30 for 410km on the rails. This is already going to improve very soon judging by the ongoing construction on this corridor: with the completion of Stuttgart 21, the Rastatt-Tunnel and the S21 northern highspeed connector; 15m, 6m and 9m will be shaved off of the travel time respectively, reducing the travel time to 3h. Furthermore, there will be another high speed section in construction in addition to minor operational improvements which will cut another 30m of travel time. If you were to run a train nonstop from Munich to Strasbourg with these improvements it would take a little over just 2h, while retaining the option to serve city center stations whereas the LGV network is more and more seen and treated like an airline on rails, with stations far outside of population centers and huge parking lots to make up for it.
First of all, it's a pity that you did the journey in January 2022, since in December 2022, part of the new high speed line between Munich and Stuttgart was opened (about 60 kilometers between Ulm and Wendlingen near Stuttgart). I am not sure if this new track can already be used the TGV (at least some ICEs already use it - I travelled from Munich to Stuttgart and the train ran 250 km/h on this new track). This could shorten the time of 5 hours 41 minutes you report. Secondly, you say that you prefer the ICE over the TGV Duplex, but which ICE do you mean - ICE 1, 2, 3 or 4? The ICE 3 is the only one who can go at 320 km/h (and only in France, e.g. the connection Frankfurt - Paris uses an ICE 3 or Siemens Velaro). All other ICEs are slower, ranging from 250 km/h (ICE 4) to 280 km/h (ICE 1 and 2).
I would prefer a mix of both French, German and Swiss train running. French high speed links, with German and Swiss low speed trains to everywhere for the beginning and end of journeys, and all scheduled by a Swiss person.
That's perfection ☺️
With German or Swiss train sets, the TGV, especially the (Euro)Duplex ist terrible!
That's like Japan kinda
Dont let us Italians run the timetables, but we'll design the trains!
@@glm8319 Hopefully the new TGV M isn't as bad
I used to be a frequent traveller between Stuttgart and Paris back in 2017. There are 4 TGV services between those cities every day. Looking at your footage makes me want to travel to Paris in a TGV again. And with 3 hours 10 minutes, Paris is really just around the corner… By car it takes you at least 6 hours and you get crazy in the Paris traffic. And by plane, you need to add at least 2 hours at the airports and for getting into Paris. So, the TGV service is the best choice…and nothing beats 320 km/h on the ground 😊
I’m not surprised at all that the train didn’t make up the 15-minute delay between Strasbourg and
Paris. The timetable already accounts for the 320kph line-speed and doesn’t allow any room for anything less than this speed!
"and doesn’t allow any room for anything less than this speed!"
And IMHO that is the mistake. Always take delays into account, and it will be much easier to be in time.
Saw one make up 20 minutes from Bordeaux to CDG. Maybe they need more distance to do it?
@@mrm7058 that works for aviation but not trains IMO. Trains that aren't late can't arrive early at the platform because they'd take platform space for too long. And, unlike airplanes, they also can't run slower (to not arrive early) without slowing every train behind, thereby defeating the purpose.
I experienced a make up of a 10 minutes delay between Straßburg and Paris in an ICE. The ICE arrived 2 minutes early in Paris Est.
It works on trains as long as there's *not* another train right in front of yours.
And with a 15 minute delay, chances are another train used its scheduled slot on time and the delayed train finds itself behind it with near zero margin to recover the delay.
Last time I had a slight delay in a TGV it was mostly recovered but not entirely. The "voice" (don't remember if it was the driver or train agent) told us that we could only recover 2/3 of the delay because we had caught up to the previous train. That was on the East line during mid day, not the real peak hours.
It might be a lot less feasible on the Southeast line where trains run as low as 3 minutes apart during peak : absolutely zero margin to recover delays on this saturated line.
But the good thing is that thanks to its structure (parallel model with many city bypasses) the French HSL network is quasi immune to cascading delays compared to the German network which is particularly prone to such snowballing delays along entire lines due to network's serial structure and station bottlenecks.
Currently the TGV is not certified to use the new high speed track between Ulm and Wendlingen. Once Stuttgart 21 is finished, 30 min will be cut on this route, making a Munich - Paris connection much more viable
And another 20 when ulm-Augsburg gets built in 50 years. I'd like to see a sprinter too, that goes Munich-Stuttgart-Strassburg-Paris.
Nice! The TGV is my favorite high speed train. And this is one of my favorite TGV routes. I still miss the old blue and silver livery though. The last TGV that had that was a first generation Duplex number 283. It went into renovation in May.
Prefer the German ICE - feel more spacious and modern (especially over longer distances), however no-one can deny the TGV is by far much more iconic 🙌, France's vision and ability to build up these lines is remarkable
To me the German ICE is a joke, so many issues, delays
German railway is primarily known for frequent delays. The railway known for frequent trains is Switzerland, not Germany. I lived in both counties for more than 20 years each and know the systems from ecperiece.
I really like ICE 1, 2 and 3! The ICE 1 with its unique bar area and separated restaurant is my favourite!
I love how this person said that German TRAINS are great and everyone is complaining about delays and the frequency.
German trains are some of the best IMO, but we should run them on french HSR lines scheduled by swiss people
but german trains are also way less safe
Thank you for a very interesting video. One small criticism. The improvements along the Rheintal line south of Karlsruhe are ongoing, and to the despair of the Swiss are taking a VERY long time. I have seen two thousand and THIRTY-five as the estimated date of completion. (Remember the disastrous tunnel collapse at Rastatt just south of Karlsruhe.)
The improvements on the Rhine Valley rail line have been taking so absurdly long due to the usual delays that no German construction project seems to be immune to and has upset the Swiss Railways to such an extent, that they want to ban trains from Germany going into the Swiss network, as they are a source of disruption to their highly coordinated time table... and I don't blame them. Punctuality, maintenance and reliability on the German rails have been in steady decline and only recently can we see investments being made into a system that has, in part, been run against a wall.
@@ThisWontFly Thank for your response. I entirely agree. I am British but visit both Switzerland and Germany fairly regularly and read German language railway journals.
Are those Rheine Valley works more relevant to facilitate travelling to Swizerland or to France ?
@@jandron94 Primarily facilitates the main north-south route which runs North Sea Ports-Karlsruhe-Basel(Switzerland)-Gotthard-Italy. But for the 60 kms. south of Karlsruhe to just north of Offenburg the East-West line on which Thibault was travelling uses the same tracks! In particular Thibault's train passed through the notorious bottleneck at Rastatt. There a few years ago a new bypass tunnel under construction collapsed. The existing line was blocked for SEVEN WEEKS.
@@Fan652w Thanks for the info ! Maybe I am wrong but my feeling is that for the German authorities improving cross-border connections is not a priority as compared to some domestic oddities. Let me explain : Stuttgart and Cologne are quite closer to Paris by HS train than they are from the federal capital Berlin.
The French HS lines (to Belgium and Strasbourg) are clearly showing some sort of imbalance in terms of HS "efficiency" in Germany. People from Marseille would find it very upsetting having a slower access to Paris than to Barcelone, the same for Lyon and Milan, Lille and London, Toulouse and Madrid, etc.
I would really like to know what is the German federal and regional authorities mindset regarding cross-border connections, as well the one of the population in those parts of Germany. Do they really care ? Is Germany with its 84 million people more self-centered in terms of transit need than neighbouring countries ? French authorities were not reluctant to expand their TGV network to close neighbours including by true HS lines.
Do background "obscure" national economy strategies come into play ?
I’m dying to go to Munich one day. What a fabulous looking place and great trains
Can’t wait to see the next video on the Trenitalia intercity from Milan to the cinque terre! I recognised the day of your video because of the cruise ship that was in the Genoa port, unfortunately that day there were two deadly accidents on the Genoa highways
brilliant share, I`ve only ever used TGV from Basel to Paris and it`s brilliant, still lovely to see things through your lenses.Thanks so much for sharing.
I want high speed and high frequency. I can only guess that Japan has both. USA is consistent: low frequency and low speeds.
😂😂😂
If you look at the way the population is distributed across the country then France and Germany are quite different.
France has not only a way lower population density, but additionally the population is very concentrated into several metropolitan areas with lots of empty land in between then.
In Germany on the other hand, the population is way more spread out accross the country, making it way more complicated to connect everything efficiently, especially with high speed lines
In France you just connect metropolitan area with metropolitan area with a high-speed line through the empty land in between.
In Germany there's big city next to big city. Especially in the northwestern Part. So the different systems kinda make sense. The geography of France is just way better suited for very fast high speed connections.
Underrated comment, spot on. This is also the reason why speeds like 320 don’t make much sense in Germany, as you would only be able to drive at that speed for a few minutes before the train needs to decelerate for the next stop. Doesn’t change travel time, but drives costs up. Speeds of around 200-230 are pretty much the best mix of price and fastness for many relations in GER.
To be honest, i definetely prefer a system, like in Germany. In Austria, where I live, we have a mix-system between Germany and the Switzerland. Regular trains tacts are every 30 or 60 or seldom every 120 minutes and whereever it's possible, there are connections between two line with few minutes waiting time, like in St. Pölten, where all trains (local and Intercity) arrive between minute 55 and 00 and leave the station between 02 and 07. In some stations, the connections could be improved, but its already very good.
It's not like we don't have a tact in Germany. Nearly all trains regional and long distance run every 30, 60 or 120 min. Not always exact 30/60min because the ICE Hamburg-Berlin for example has extra stops every 60min. But this tact is useless if your train is delayed and 5-10min connection time is planned
Enjoyable video as always, thanks Thibault. For me personally, I’m less worried about high speed and prefer a network that has plenty of routes, both main and branch line, and good inter-connect ability between trains, trams and buses. Switzerland scores highly on that. If we want to get passengers out of their cars and on to public transport then they must be able to see the advantages.
Agreed, but high speed lines are in the same way important to make trains more attractive, namely on larger distances. I'm Livingstone in Switzerland and e.g.. miss fast connections in the East - West corridor, between Zurich sind Bern, Lausanne sind Geneva (also with respect to connection to the French LGV network). Also Zurich - Stuttgart and Zurich - Munich is a catastrophy, mainly to the German lack of high speed lines there.
I agree with you that the ideal is a network with plenty of routes. The crucial point about Switzerland is that all modes of transport are timetabled to interconnect. You really can go from anywhere to anywhere anytime.
@@goldfing5898 i agree that all lines going from Switzerland to Germany are catastrophic, but the blame rests firmly with the Germans. The Rheintal reconstruction will take until 2035, while the lines to Munich and Stuttgart desperately need to be double-tracked throughout. Most Swiss know that for journeys within their country their trains are the best in Europe, even though they are not very fast. However Zurich to Bern is 122 kms in 56 minutes.
Super video !
A quand une video sur le réseau du petit train de la Baie de Somme ?
A few days ago I travelled from Bordeaux to Saint-Jean-de-Luz (in the Basque country) with a TGV Inoui, and since it came from Paris-Montparnasse using the newest LGV, the train was from 2019, and in first class, although the seat was not as great as the older interior, the seat pitch and the equipment (table, light, recline...) were incredible!
Did you know that in front of the Stuttgart HBF station there is an N scale replica of it with also full railyard and lines? It's massive and amazing!
Merci beaucoup pour le reportage. Ça me rappelle mon premier voyage en Europe. Premier trajet en train: Paris-Munich. C'était en 2004, pas de LGV. Train de nuit, opéré par DB. Départ vers 22:00 de la gare de l'Est, et on a pas pu avoir de couchettes, elles étaient déjà toutes réservées, on a du se contenter de dormir assis dans notre compartiment alors qu'on avait déjà un décalage horaire de 6h dans le corps car on était arrivé à Paris en avion le matin et qu'on s'est promené dans la ville toute la journée. Et après cette nuit sans trop de sommeil, on a visité Munich où nous sommes arrivés vers 9:00, c'est dire que le trajet avait pris environ 11h. Ça c'est un vrai voyage !!!!
Munich to Paris by train is so incredible. And the train that is travelling at 320kmh (200mph) is just amazing. 😍👍
Greetings from Salvador, Bahia, Brazil! Both France and Germany are fantastic countries, I've been on both with my wife but I still prefer the German way of doing things, including railways and trains and all other means of transport.
You prefer the German Railways? So you prefer delays? Swiss are so upset by the delays of DB, they have stopped some international journeys between the 2 countries.
Interesting to see the train from inside and some of the landscape outside!
I prefer true high speed network. Sure you have less flexibility but then you need to plan accordingly. Time is valuable.
Living in Germany and constantly facing delays, slow service and shared rail network with cargo is simply frustrating. This is a major issue for me when traveling by train in Germany
Thank you Thibault, if keep making these videos I'll keep watching!
Nice review! One question: 5:44 How did you count the length?
Munich - Strasbourg is about 400 km en route and 290 km if it were direct. (so not 287 km and even the route via the Geislinger Steige, which you took is about 10 km longer)
Strasbourg - Paris is ca. 400 km direct and as you said 439 km en route.
Your duration is the new one via the new high speed line, but the distances are just weird.
Correct would be:
Munich to Strasbourg (400 km): 3h46
Strasbourg to Paris (439 km): 1h48
Which is obviously still crazy. Shorter by 40 km, but longer by 2 hours.
Munich -Strasbourg was 4h 01m with the delay which gives 100km/h average speed vs 244 km/h average speed between Strasbourg and Paris Gare l'est!
Well more stops and slower lines. For now the TGV dies notnuse the stuttgart ulm line either. (Saves c. 15mins). Stuttgart 21 will save another c. 20mins. The ulm augsburg line is then still missing, which would bring paris and munich towards 4.30min or less
You could rephrase that like this: between Munich and Strasbourg there are many large cities that deserve HSR connections, while between strasbourg and Paris there's just empty land
Paris - Strasbourg is non stop so not surprising. They should stop at Metz (or Lorraine TGV on the LGV) and give direct trains to Germany
A new high-speed track (250 km/h) has been opened as recently as December 2022 between Ulm an Stuttgart. It's part of the Stuttgart 21 project and saves 15 minutes travel time from Munich. However, not all the high-speed trains use it, and the TGVs seem to still run on the old tracks, as far as I can see. Which surprises me, because I've heard that SNCF doesn't like to run more trains to Munich, because Stuttgart - Munich is so slow :D
As soon as Stuttgart 21 is in full operation, it will save another 15 minutes. Let's hope that this will give us an improved connection from Munich to Paris as well!
Im "TGV le grand check up" video from France Reportage & Aviation they show how they are now fitting new reversible seats for first class TGV sections so passengers can traven forrward. It is unfortunate that Canada has abandonned reversible seats at a time France is going baclk to them. We now have to ttavel backwards in Canada. .
Not surprised you didn't catch up time. And you were lucky to be able to maintain 320 and not be slowed down by traffic ahead of you.
I used this route and beyond from Paris to Wienna twice. Paris-Stuttgart, then change of train Stuttgart-Münich-Salzburg-Wienna. Very comfortable trains and nice restaurant facilities.
Great video. I use this service and the nightjet to Venice each year to go skiing.. Travel from Bristol to Venice and back by train. Absolutely love this journey
Great high speed ride. Comfy seats. Nice scenery. Thanks Thibault💚😀
5:50 yeah thats true. We have a network that reaches everywhere but still we need to build more high speed lines. Sadly in the past our rail network didn’t get any investment…
Now you can save 15min between Stuttgart and Ulm, and another 15min when S21 is in use. A new High Speed Line between Ulm-Augsburg is also plannend. At this time the TGV can run on the new Highspeed Line Wendlingen-Ulm because he needs a ETCS Level 2 Update. So in a few years the TGV can run 30min faster than now and maybe 40-45 in the future when the part between Ulm-Augsburg is finished.
"At this time ... can run... " : can NOT run ?
In fact, Germany and France had a different approch regarding High speed line and that might be, at least in part, to the fact that in France, everything is center around Paris, however, in Germany there is a lot of big cities bur none of then had the importance of Paris
So France decided to build high speed line to connect Paris with others city (with the exception of the line from Dole to Mulhouse that do not connect Paris and his probably under used) and Germany that decided instead to upgrade existing line to 200 - 250 km/h when possible and build new high speed line only when upgrading existing lines warn't an efficient option ...
Also, it's true that there is only one direct train from München to Paris, however you could easily use an ICE to Stuttgart and from there connect to a service to Paris as I did a few years ago and I'm not sure that the numbers of passengers that goes all the way between the two cities justify more direct service
The number of passengers will certainly increase as soon as the high speed lines between München and Stuttgart are finally completed and in service, including Stuttgart 21. Slow train connections are of course unttractive in comparison to plane and car travel.
@@goldfing5898People in Munich are problably much more attracted by Austria, Italy, Coratia, Spain, etc rather than France.
And for the French Munich is rarely an obvious holliday destination (as is the rest of Germany). So no real urgency to upgrade that rail route.
Don't confuse the *layout* / *shape* of the network (mostly radial in France, grid-like in Germany) and the *model* of high-speed lines : "strings of pearls" / *serial* in Germany and *parallel* / *backbone* in France (like in Spain too).
The parallel model used in France has lots of bypass tracks around cities to allow full speed non-stop services. A Paris > Marseille service would accelerate out of Paris to its cruise speed and would only start to decelerate once approaching Marseille's tunnel.
While the serial model used in Germany forces all trains to run through all cities along their routes.
On top of the lack of high-speed lines, the "serial" model used in Germany is one of the main causes of both delays and slow average speed.
The city center stations being major bottlenecks, trains are forced to follow each other and delays add up.
A single delay on the line impacts every single train behind.
While with the parallel / backbone model in France or Spain, a delay in one station would only impact the next train to this particular station and not any of the many other trains on the line to other destinations.
It allows for much more robust operations.
P.S. As you probably have guessed, serial and parallel refer initially to electrical circuitry.
On a serial circuit, electricity follows a linear path, any breakage of an element on the circuit cuts the whole circuit.
On a parallel circuit, electricity continues to flow via other paths if an element is broken or turned off.
It's just applied to high-speed lines.
@@KyrilPG The "TGV" model in France is actually a mix of both the old slow (
@@jandron94 I concur, but I didn't include the legacy network / upgraded lines at the end of HSL's in my coverage on purpose. Because, almost by definition, regular / legacy passenger lines are serial.
Just one thing : the idea that Paris kinda stagnates is mostly made up by a confusion between Paris proper's (intramuros) slight dip in population and Paris' agglomeration as a whole.
Recently Paris urban area officially reached ~15 million inhabitants (14.8 in 2022 with a common underestimation) and its economic portion of the national GDP increased again.
The effects of Brexit relocations played a role and the overblown "Paris exodus" trend substantially reversed. Every single person that I know who migrated out of Paris has moved back after quite a rude awakening about the life they dreamt of in regions.
Especially when they discovered the need for cars, their climate impact living in low density housing, the many unforeseen costs, etc.
Moral to the story : decisions made on a whim during exceptional times tend to be the worst and costliest.
Are you sure for Marseille that what's planned is an underground station and tunnel right under St Charles?
The time penalty would be substantial and the cost pretty steep.
Le Mans doesn't have an on-line out-of-town station, but there are connections to the legacy network and downtown station on both sides of the "eye" shape formed by the bypass, East and West of the city at a fairly small distance.
The central France North South corridor is kept as potential new main HSL (Orleans Bourges Clermont-Ferrand St Étienne) to double as a second Southeastern line and offer access to Lyon from the South and to the Med HS line.
As the Paris Lyon trunk is saturated yo the brim and demand largely exceeds capacity. (Also the current issue with the lack of available slots for potential competitors)
Plus, I'm pretty sure Clermontians would harshly disagree about the legacy line being acceptable. 😉
The connection is crazy good to take a connection to London, meaning you can make the connection Munich-London in under 10 hours (if you take into account the lengthy Eurostar boarding process) and taking into account that you leave Munich quite early, its perfect if you want ur arrival time to be not to late in the day so you can still enjoy a chill pub evening :)
I also gotta give this route (and the eurostar) credit for its insane steadiness during such high speed journeys. You feel like sitting in a normal room all the time.
Along the "LGV Est européenne" there is a signal of the European system called ETCS Level 2 approximately every 4 signals of the TVM 430 (the classic system used along the French high-speed lines as well as on the section in English territory covered by the Eurostars connecting Paris and Brussels with London). Could someone kindly explain to me why the signals of the European system called ETCS Level 2 are rarefied compared to the signals of the TVM 430? Thank you for your attention
ETCS L2 works with in-cab signalling so no track-side signals are required. Some lines still have them, but if you have them they're much rarer than conventional signals
@@jan-lukas In fact, I am referring to the signals (signs, billboards, tables, billboards or whatever they are called) which delimit the sections of the French TVM 430 system and the European system called ETCS Level 2. If you pay attention, you will notice that along the LGV Est européenne there are 'is a scoreboard of the European system called ETCS Level 2 approximately every 4 scoreboards of the TVM 430. The tables of the European system called ETCS Level 2 are generally coupled to the tables of the TVM 430. No one has been able to explain to me why the tables of the European system called ETCS Level 2 are rarefied compared to the tables of the SNCF distancing and safety system.
I hate it when seats are not aligned with a window. Inexcusable in First Class. 👍🏻🏴 Obviously from a passenger’s viewpoint the German timetabling is preferable.
I am amazed that Thibault did not comment on the windows point. The Swiss seem now to be the only people who realize that seats should be aligned with windows. To state the obvious, people want to look at the scenery!
A very insightful comment on the different railway operations in France and Germany. As with many other things, Spain is a bad copy of France. It has even more high speed lines but less frequent services, even more airline style practices and awful connections with regional trains.
'airline style practices' include the need to check in. The only other high-speed system in Europe which requires check-ins are the services through the channel tunnel. These are possibly justified on security grounds.
You have good tgv in spain, just you have montain and very hot climat !!! Is not good for the tgv ( electric )
That's part of the Paris-Bratislava High Speed Line. It's currently in construction, with over half the stages complete. They need a higher speed link from Vienna to Bratislava and fill in some of the gaps between Vienna to Paris. It's going to be awesome when it's done, as I'm from Bratislava and visit it. Can fly to Paris now!
TGV between Bordeaux and Paris is quite frequent
Problem is east and west with lack of routes/trains eg Bordeaux towards Lyon
There are plenty. Usually you just have to change in Paris from the Gare de Montparnasse to the Gare de Lyon.
@@rogeriomonteiro760 exactly.
You have to go via Paris and therefore have to travel north and then back south again
@@chrisgironde6669 The ROI on Bordeaux/Lyon, Nantes/Lyon, TOulouse/Lyon or TOulouse/Montpellier are not good. French gouvernement refuses to fund a project with less than 6% of ROI. THey don't want to do like Spain, with a massive HS network but too many empty trains. At the end it's the tax payer who pays.
The Interconnexion Sud used by the TGV over the RER C south of Paris is congested with a single track connection to the TGV network at each end. About 400 million were spent in the last few months to add another track and flyover junctions. This should save 2 minutes per trip and allow 2 East-West TGV/hour instead of 1.
Thanks for the great video! I also prefer the German arrangement of trains, although I am more familiar with it anyway.
Great trip! thank you for showing it to me.
One thing to note about the german high speed system is that it is very much still an incomplete system, as germany's population is spread between far more cities than france's population is, meaning you cant make a functional network with 4 lines. And germany is still building multiple high speed lines this decade, and planning to reach 6000 km of high speed lines (france is a bit below 3000 km of high speed lines now)
I find this video very calming. Minimal sounds and more scenery
Great video !!
Thanks for the advice about the toilets. I've never thought of that, actually
Very nice, thanks Thibault.
Another great video. I prefer the German system of trains. You can get anywhere in the country easily.
5:31 Interesting your brought this up. I've read about different reasons why Germany's ICE is relatively slow. One of them was that a lot of towns in a lot of the ''landkreise'' (districts) wanted an ICE service, which makes the trains stop a lot more often than TGVs and confines them to conventional lines. Another reason is the population density and cities being a lot closer to eachother.
If you ask me, Germany could do a bit of both: Have ICE's stop only in the largest cities and use the intercity service for smaller towns inbetween, which is already low-key happening with the ICE Sprinter-service between Munich and Berlin.
The thing is, even the sprinter services are not significantly faster since the ICEs need to slow down anyway when approaching the many cities and towns along the way. Building high speed tracks by-passing them would not be possible due to 1. Cost, 2. Why would the cities or communes or states approve high speed lines going through them if it would reduce the frequency of ICE services there.
Even the Cologne to Frankfurt high speed line has stops in 2 smaller towns since the state of Rheinland-Pfalz wouldn't approve otherwise. I think it's not that bad since smaller places are not ignored, but it does mean less speed across the country
France is quite a bigger country. The average "High Speed" rail travel distance is maybe around 500km in France whereas in Germany maybe less than 300km.
And with real high speed (~300km/h) the Paris TGV hub strategy (thanks to its parisian suburb bypass) is more efficient and a real alternative to plane. And with futur HS lines (Bordeaux-Toulouse, Marseille-Nice, Perpignan-Montpellier, Lyon-Turin) that one Parisian central hub strategy will become even more relevant I think.
Of course the "few" needing for instance to travel from Bordeaux to Marseille will find it a bit frustrating since they would prefer a Bordeaux-Toulouse-Marseille route in 3h rather than the current 6h Bordeaux-Massy-Marseille route. If unhappy they can still catch a plane.
German strategy is different : it suits their own needs, it has its logics.
The French HS network as any other network is an "expensive and slow" work in progress (since the 80s) so it needs to be considered on the very long run : in 2040 it will be fantastic I guess with all upcoming lines and stations upgrades, new TGV design, new HS lines, new services, "cheaper" fares... I am optimistic.
It's not that more cities want service, the problem is that the population is spread out over many semi-large cities that deserve the service individually. All of these together then result in much longer travel times.
Another problem is the density of Germany, while in France you can easily build mostly straight HSR lines, in Germany you constantly have to weave around cities and towns of all sizes
5:46 This huge discrepancy in travel speed is not only due to different "philosophy", as you write, but because nearly no part of the planned high-speed line between Munich and Stuttgart had already been completed at the time of your journey. In the meantime, 60 kilometers of the new high speed line were finished, allowing 250 km/h, and there is more to come.
The TGV isn't allowed to travel on it right now, so still doesn't really matter.
France and Germany have indeed a very different philosphy regarding Highspeed traintravel… France‘s HSR is very Paris centered and the tracks are exclusivily used by TGV trains, while in Germany HS Trains share the tracks with regional and freight trains and the system also connects smaller cities to eachother
That defeats the purpose of high-speed trains...
There's no fast long distance in Germany.
A TGV can run Paris > Marseille *and* *back* while an ICE runs Munich > Hamburg, a shorter distance.
The point of high-speed trains is to compete with air travel, not to act as slightly faster regional trains.
The absence of city bypass and non-stop services negatively impacts the ICE network.
@@Kletterhausthe full line will only be opened in 2025, then the TGV can run there. Currently not even all ICEs run on the new line
No it makes the ICE network as well used as it is. ICE not only replace flights but also car trips. Unlike the french counterpart.
I used to travel from Paris to Strasbourg for 7 years on ICE and TGV. I prefered TGV, because their seat are more comfortable. The ICE seat were as hard as low-class planes seat. For a long trip, it's a thing for my back, and being rested, ready for work at the arrival.
ça fait plaisir un retour en france
I prefer French solution, cause they separate the high speed routes almost completely from the regional service. The routs in Germany are often overcrowded by trains, this leads to an unreliable service. German trains are really on time and they get really often canceled. I’m living in Germany and through my experience there is on thing everyone is agreeing on: the service of DB ist a catastrophe.
Comfortable run is due to the fact that the line is designed for a max speed of 350 kph in the future (if energy costs could be lowered).
The German style of service is nice but could be complementary to the French style. With enough bypasses and junctions, both could be possible. The German service at least avoids building stations in the middle of nowhere to connect for real with local services.
Traveling at high speed is like flying thru the sky and smooth traveling all the way, I Am sure that safety is a vary high priority.
I wrote an article on the Eckwersheim derailment not long ago, its tragic but also an example of STAGGERING negligence.
Train coming from Germany were often in late at the arrival at Strasbourg... And regaining the time by higher speed costs much... So german delays aren't always regain. TGV run usually on their proper lines, that's the feature you don't like instead of the german lines. Its a political choice... but you can have also in France many regional trains to go in smaller cities.
I love the houses and scenery
Really brilliant video, but I wouldn't want to choose between the French trie high speed rail service and the German model that takes you more places (actually, the Swiss truly take you anywhere). I think if anything, there is a case for a segregated high speed network that serves important railway hubs where passengers then can connect to more regional/local trains that will take them onwards to their final destination.
Trains are way faster on the French side. German network does not have sustained high speed routes. I had been on Eurostar and ICE 3
I take the SB-Paris quite often, and when it almost always arrives late from Frankfurt (actually it gets delayed in Mannheim), I don't think they bother too much to catch up on small delays (
At least you get money. Amtrak just gives rewards points for smaller Acela delays. Seems to be 1000 per 30 minutes
Highspeed. Take trains in French is awesome.
Wow I'm used to seeing French stations but Munich station is so beautiful. It's like an airport
It is a hole, literally. The whole front has been knocked down and has been a hole in the ground for the past two years. The train shed/platforms are grubby and overcrowded, hardly any facilities. I was there last week, 13/8/23.
@@alfredroyal3473Ok but when I see my station like Lyon, Paris Est or Strasbourg, Munich's architecture is more modern
Did Munich Hauptbahnhof ever have a glass shed covering the platforms?
so many people does not like DB but the service it gives is really dense as you said. You can find ice's everytime and also regional trains are working
On the point you raise six minutes into the video, I much prefer the 'go anywhere anytime' approach of the Germans to the fast but not very frequent approach of the French. It is noteworthy that Switzerland and Austria to the south of Germany, and Belgium, Netherlands and Denmark to the north, all prefer the go anywhere anytime approach. In Britain where I live our trains are generally more frequent than in France, and are often fast, but 'anytime anywhere' they are certainly not. Poor services Sundays and holidays, and far too many quite import towns and areas not served by train. (And in Britain, unlike in continental Europe, buses generally do not connect wit trains.)
It seems buses are generally terrible in the UK in my very limited experience, especially outside London, probably the worst I've experienced in Europe really. But I guess that's what you get when you privatize a public service.
@@dijikstra8 I am British, but I agree with your comments. I am lucky that I live in Nottingham, one of only eight towns in Britain where the buses are still publicly owned. Our bus service is known to be good compared to the rest of Britain. (NB Northern Irish buses are neither privatized nor deregulated.)
I prefer the most direct approach of the French. Best way to compete vs Airplane.
@@freewal I do not agree. The great thing about trains in German speaking areas and the Benelux is that (unlike with the aeroplane) you do not have to book in advance. Eg if you live in Hamburg but suddenly find you need to get to Munich, you can just hurry to the Hauptbahnhof.
@@Fan652w In France you have to book online, for TGVs and Intercity but not for other trains. The thing is, it's easy to book via app. The booking stuff allows to guarantee a seat. I could not imagine the mess if there was no booking.
There is stil only one direct connection, but if you don´t mind to change train during the trip, you get 8 schedules, with the last train leaving München at 16.45. And surprisingly taking less 21 minutes than the direct trip.
Congratulations for wonderful Train
You made a little error, or maybe used a wrong turn of phrase : the French high-speed *network* is not low frequency at all, it has the highest frequencies in Europe.
With trains running as low as every 3 minutes apart each way on peak on the busiest HS lines (and even a bit outside peak).
The difference is that trains, or should I say *services* are much more dedicated per destination. So there's up to a train every 3 minutes but for different destinations, usually non-stop, to maintain top speed and to bypass cities.
When 15 trains depart one after the other, they almost all have different destinations : Lyon, Marseille, Montpellier, Grenoble, Chambery, Geneva...
Or Tours, Poitiers, Rennes, Nantes, Bordeaux, Angoulème, Châtelleraut, la Rochelle...
I really don't like the German model for that utter lack of direct non-stop and fast services (except between like Köln and Frankfurt, and even then they find a way to make 3 or 4 stops 😱).
OK it's practical for shorter journeys to smaller cities but, as much as I love trains, this is not HSR's purpose and I would be flying in Germany for longer distances. As it takes way too long to reach the destination on any mid or long distance ICE.
The "string of pearls" or "serial" model used in Germany is a speed destroyer and capacity wrecker.
It's also much more prone to cascading delays as trains are stuck behind each other with the way too many station stops acting as sequential bottlenecks. (cf current situation).
And it gives way too much weight to smaller cities that have a crazy amount of services per day, while the bunch of passengers traveling between the major cities have to endure much longer journeys due to the excessive number of stops.
Even the "sprinter" services do stop quite a lot, there's virtually no non-stop services.
The French network allows to transport huge numbers of passengers and really competes head-on with airlines. It also allows long distance daily commuting from / to cities 150 to 400 km away and punctual commuting (ie weekly) to / from the other side of the country.
So much that there's a saturation issue on the LGV's which poses a serious problem for new competitors to enter the market.
Having more stops would only decrease service and capacity on the major destinations that are already heavily traveled.
The specificity of the French network, akin to the Spanish one, is the presence of many large bypass tracks around cities, including Paris, Lyon, Le Mans, Avignon, Reims, etc.
A service running Paris > Strasbourg doesn't need to slow down nor cross any city center along the way, same for Lille > Marseille, Bordeaux > Tours, etc.
As for many ICE city pairs in Germany, TER services can be just as fast, like Paris > Le Havre in 2 hours or Paris > Rouen in 1h30 or Strasburg > Mulhouse run at 200kph.
Having a bunch of stops defeats the purpose of a high-speed trains...
And because of these many stops, mid to long distance ICE services have low average speeds and are scheduled frequently to compensate the fairly low numbers of available seats between the most distant and / or important destinations on each train.
The French and Spanish HSR networks offer the equivalent of planes on rails, or A380 on rails for the TGV : super fast and high capacity.
The ICE network is only fast if you travel on a real high-speed stretch with a sprinter service between the 2 or 3 closest destinations of the service. Frankly, it is painful to see ICE 3's run such low average speed services on longer journeys.
During the time taken by an ICE to run Munich > Hamburg, a TGV would have traveled Paris > Marseille > Paris, hauling more passengers on more than twice the distance.
What I was referring to as the "string of pearls" / "serial" in Germany vs the "parallel" / "backbone" model in France and Spain is entirely different from the layout / shape of the networks (grid in Germany, mostly radial in France and Spain).
On that subject of layout, the French network lacks transverse lines, like Nantes > Limoges > Clermont > Saint Étienne > South of Lyon > Grenoble, connecting with both the Paris Bordeaux and Lyon Marseille lines.
And the much awaited Montpellier > Narbonne > (Perpignan > Spain) > Toulouse > Bordeaux.
But that's an entirely different subject.
As for the train delay in the video:
I've noted that when drivers talk on the PA to announce the speed (which is quite rare), it's usually because the train hasn't yet accelerated to its cruise speed at a location where it is normally running at full speed (or accelerating).
And in your case, I suspect that you were maintained a bit longer than normal at 160 before pushing to 320kph.
Probably because there was another train in front, that was on time and ran before your train.
So they might have maintained 160 a short while longer than usual for separation purposes and then it wasn't possible to recover the delay.
Or maybe the driver was simply super happy to finally flex his legs on a true and unobstructed high-speed line after hours of "meh" speeds, frequent braking and stops. 🤣
Lovely video and information. Thankyou.
I was wondering if there is regular IC or EC (non high-speed service) between Munich or other German cities to Paris that run every two hours or so?
Thank-you 😊.
The answer to your question is (in practical terms) 'no'. There are however Thalys high-speed trains (I will use the old name to avoid confusion) about every two hours from Cologne to Paris via Brussels. There are (I think) 4 through high-speed trains per day in each direction Paris to Frankfurt(Main).
Usually you'd take an ICE from Munich to Stuttgart and change to a different train there. Then you have a connection every two hours probably
@@jan-lukas I take your point entirely. But, as another commentator has already pointed out, you should allow plenty of time for the connection at Stuttgart if travelling towards Paris. Unfortunately DB's punctuality leaves a lot to be desired.
As soon as the TGV is certified for ETCS 2 in Germany, it will be 15 minutes faster than in this video because it will be able to take the new high speed line between Ulm and Wendlingen (approx. 30km east of Stuttgart) with a max speed of 250kph. German ICE run this new line since its opening in 12/22 and it’s just amazing compared to the old windy and mountaineous line with speeds as low as 70kph. The smoothness of the new line is insane. Can’t wait to try out the TGV with its incredible ride calm and quality on that track. I take this route to Munich twice per week. From 12/24 on, TGV should be certified for ETCS 2 in Germany and I can’t wait to try it out on these tracks! Once the big project Stuttgart 21 is finished (currently tracked to open fully in 12/26) it should shave off another 20 mins from journey time cause then the high speed line won’t end in Wendlingen but go straight to the new underground through station in Stuttgart. This will enable travel times of just 5hrs or even a little less than 5hrs! Absolutely amazing!
It is interesting your train took the Ulm - Stuttagrt route over the alp via Geislingen. It seems like all the TGV trains on the German routes they are not equipped with the ETCS signalling system making them ineligible to use the latest high speed stretch of track in Germany. That being the stretch from Ulm via Wendlingen to Stuttgart - surprising really.
I'm pretty sure that the TGV could run there if it wasn't for the single-track part in Wendlingen that has to be used until Stuttgart 21 is opened
.@jan-lukas Hi, Thanks for your comment but could you please explain why the single track is the constraint.
I would like to see also an upgrade of existing tracks to allow for faster and more reliable connections and higher frequencies as well. Like services that run at max speeds of 160 to 200km/h on existing connections. The tracks should be modified in that level crossings must be removed. If you could have an average speed of 140km/h at a high frequency without the need for reservations, that would be great.
1. Dedicated infrastructure is a must.
2. When running on "shared" infrastructure in order to serve the stations in the city centers, no less than 160 km/h should be acceptable. No slowing down and especially no stopping in the suburbs. Maximum priority, maybe some "dedicated" tracks that could (in case of construction works) be used by other trains.
3. Anything less than 320 km/h is not acceptable in 2023, when we are talking about traveling long distance (anything above 50 km).
4. A regular timetable with frequent services, so you do not have to search for trains, just know they depart every hour.
You asked me to choose between Germany and France. That is a false dichotomy. The best high speed rail service is in Japan. Frequent service, high speeds, dedicated infrastructure. It is not about choosing between speed and frequency of service. Both can be achieved.
Interesting stuff. There really should be more trains per day on a route like this, at least 2 or 3. But since this was filmed in January 2022 I assume things might have already sped up a bit for these trains, like with the opening of the Ulm Wendlingen high speed line that'll be extended through Stuttgart once Stuttgart 21 is complete. When that's done that should hopefully make this train quite a bit speedier too.
And in terms of high speed networks then both are quite impressive, but the German less centralised approach might work a bit better. We're following Germany's example with the railway investment in Denmark where I'm from. We may not have any high speed trains but there's already a 60km long high speed line south of Copenhagen and another 27km long one in the early stages of construction between Odense and Middelfart. Both of these are designed to relieve the existing mainlines where congestion is at a breaking point, while just being futureproofed for speeds at 250km/h.
But what we inherrit from Germany in rail investment, we also do in Nimbyism as a high speed rail bridge over the Vejle Fjord was cancelled in November last year after 9 years of political limbo. This bridge was one of the most important pieces in a big puzzle to get a Swiss style takt between Denmark's 4 biggest cities, but now that has gone down the drain in favour of more motorways and tax cuts.
Unfortunately this is an extension of the Paris Stuttgart connection, hence why only one direct train.
The Wendlingen-Ulm is not yet used by the TGV afaik because it's partially single-track until Stuttgart 21 opens
One question: are those trains using the new line between Ulm and Stuttgart (Wendlingen more precisely?)
No. Ridiculously, the TGVs do not have ETCS.
@@Fan652w I guess those coming to Luxembourg have it. Maybe that’s why the number of TGVs between Luxembourg and Paris have decreased.
Visit Poland. En57 kibel is waiting for you.
Super interesting question of network style; LGV-style (fast!), or fine web of many interconnections (slow!)? A fine web of interconnections is more robust to problems. Maybe the full-scale LGV on the other hand is less exposed to problems becasue of robust design?
This question has indeed been ongoing when Sweden is in the making of upgrading the main routes, to meet the improved access via tunnel between Denmark and Germany. Sadly the sitting governement cancelled a well needed extensive passenger traffic on higher speed infrastructure, becasue of believed overprize. So the national maintainer then needed to break down their budget again, and results are that same amount will need to spent anyways, maintaining the existing two tracks with increaced demand for both passenger and freight volumes on the *same* tracks!
I took the exact same train from Munich, but leaving in Strasbourg! Beautiful city, though I really wasn't a fan of the 2nd class TGV comfort.
Great trip report
Great Video, and I totally agree with You concerning french service levels, the total lack of frequent trains on a regular schedule („cadencée“) something we have on virtually every route in Germany since 1991…. Ok, we do not have the very long stretches of High speed Lines: But given the very dense population in Germany, the hilly countryside in most parts of the country which makes a high speed line very expensive to build… There are many reasons for the lack of speed in Germany. The punctuality is an issue, too, this seems to be the downside of a network with the high frequency in our country. I have two points in which I disagree:
First: As one can see in the Service Milano - Paris, a stiff competition is always better for travellers in form of frequence and service level. The monopoly of DB and SNCF in french-german rail service leeds to an insufficient service level with booked out trains for sometimes ridiculous price levels. One can not even choose ones seat on the train if an ICE is used, this is just not acceptable in 2023. And I really wish for a strong competitor on these routes. This is true for Thalys much more, but this a different story.
Second: given that the first class leather seats in our ICEs aren‘t a success at all, I really find the TGV Duplex in every declination (original, Dasye, Océane) cramped, dated and uncomfortable with a seat pitch unworthy to be called first class. The seats are not much better than the aformentioned ICEs. And believe me I have spent hours on these Trains from Barcelona an Marseille to Munich in the extremes. The Bar Service is a joke and since the new sets seem virtually the same from the outside one has no hopes of a better design inside. But: Better trains with minor issues than no trains at all!
RECORDED IN JANUARY 2022 (PLEASE DONT COMMENT "OH, WHY StuPID MAsKKKK") who the hell wear a mask in 2022 lol
I think the Japanese system is better than either. More trains, cleaner, just as fast on the Shinkansen. Better food also.
You just have to read and speak the language, or have someone who does who can ask for directions because it is so complicated.
I would rather have a train that can get me where I need to be anytime of day. Speed doesn’t really matter when you have that.
I traveled few days ago on the LGV Est with a TGV Duplex and then a TGV Réseau: the ride quality at 320 km/h is really impressive, and I understand why the world speed record at 574 km/h was reached on this line. But, focusing on the interiors of the trains, I realized that the interiors of the german ICE and of the italian Frecciarossa are better
TGV are optimised to put a maximum number a people in the trains, in order to propose low prices.
Trains in France replace planes, in Germany they replace cars. The French system is great if you want to travel from one large city to Paris and awful when you want to travel between other cities - and absolutely dismal if you want to travel to small towns. Let's suppose tomorrow we want to travel from Nantes to Bordeaux. They're in the top 10 of the largest cities in France. By car the distance is around 350 km. Trains run every every 60 to 120 mins depending on the time of the day. The ride will cost between 70 (very early trains only) to 170 euros and take between 4 and 5 hours. It takes so long because we first have to travel to Paris and change trains there which is a considerable detour.
Now if we want to travel from Munich to Erfurt (which is #37 among Germany's cities), the distance is 400 km, ICE trains run every 30 minutes, the ride will take 2.5 hours and will cost around 90 euros. True, the train will probably be late but I definitely prefer the German concept.
Au moins, les quais de départ des trains sont indiqués bien avant le départ !
En France, c’est toujours dans les 15mn avant le départ !
the #NoFilter stickers on the windows were odd! Is that to emphasize there isn't a dot screen?
You could have the Norwegian system where the high speed is exclusively for short commuter lines and the intercity routes are single tracked with 70km/h running
Great trip. The combination of what's your mentioned in this video are can be seen in Japan.
I have travelled to Paris in TGV from Ulm in the first class :) By far my best experiance ever (Apart from EuroStar). On time, fast and comfortable. What else do you need? :)
In theory the TGV could use the new high-speed link between Ulm and Wendlingen (near Stuttgart). But I heard the TGVs are not able to use the link due to technical reason. A Highspeed link between Ulm and Augsburg is in planning to fill the gap between Stuttgart and Munich.
They can't use it because the line is partially single track until Stuttgart 21 is finished
This thru service is very good. Sadly, alternative trains have a connection at Stuttgart, which can be missed.
Very nice Video! Of course the TGV is faster in France and of course we germans need to do better and build more Highspeed Lines, but well never be as fast as in France and the reason for this is that we stop more often. Of course 400 km without stop is great for the people who live in Straßburg and want to go to Paris, but the folks in between don't profit. That's okay as France isn't as densely populated. In Germany though, we cannot stop serving the abundance of major cities along the way. There's Augsburg, Karlsruhe, Stuttgart and so on and we usually go right into the city center instead of stopping along the Highspeed line like Aix-en-Provence TGV which is nowhere near Aix. Overall both networks are great but I can't stand Germans who are always complaining about DB telling me that everything is better in France without knowing anything about trains in General or about SNCF in particular.
Frequency beats speed for me every time.
Fantastic! May we know how much is the fare on a 2nd class?
All i know is the tgv duplex between hendaye and paris is not my favourite cause crowded even in winter and seats not that confortable. I hope to meet german Ice next winter. Thanks for another great vídeo!
@@joe25564😂
While the breakdown of the travel time split between the German and the French railway system is correct in its essence, it's pretty disingenuous to use the beeline distance for the Munich to Strasbourg section while taking the actual distance on the rails for Strasbourg to Paris. Add to this that the TGV makes 4 stops in Germany whereas the only stop in France is Strasbourg. You also have to consider that the TGV isn't even using the fastest route in Germany as their rolling stock isn't equipped with ETCS which is required to access some of the highspeed sections on the route.
With all this taken into consideration, the actual travel time and distance on the german half is 3h30 for 410km on the rails. This is already going to improve very soon judging by the ongoing construction on this corridor: with the completion of Stuttgart 21, the Rastatt-Tunnel and the S21 northern highspeed connector; 15m, 6m and 9m will be shaved off of the travel time respectively, reducing the travel time to 3h. Furthermore, there will be another high speed section in construction in addition to minor operational improvements which will cut another 30m of travel time.
If you were to run a train nonstop from Munich to Strasbourg with these improvements it would take a little over just 2h, while retaining the option to serve city center stations whereas the LGV network is more and more seen and treated like an airline on rails, with stations far outside of population centers and huge parking lots to make up for it.
Of course SNCF Duplex has ECTS. The problem doesn't come from ECTS but S21 project as explained by other comment.
I'm jealous. I'd love to make this trip myself. Who knows, maybe one day I'll be lucky.
I'm an American. I'd prefer anything better than Amtrak today.
First of all, it's a pity that you did the journey in January 2022, since in December 2022, part of the new high speed line between Munich and Stuttgart was opened (about 60 kilometers between Ulm and Wendlingen near Stuttgart). I am not sure if this new track can already be used the TGV (at least some ICEs already use it - I travelled from Munich to Stuttgart and the train ran 250 km/h on this new track). This could shorten the time of 5 hours 41 minutes you report. Secondly, you say that you prefer the ICE over the TGV Duplex, but which ICE do you mean - ICE 1, 2, 3 or 4? The ICE 3 is the only one who can go at 320 km/h (and only in France, e.g. the connection Frankfurt - Paris uses an ICE 3 or Siemens Velaro). All other ICEs are slower, ranging from 250 km/h (ICE 4) to 280 km/h (ICE 1 and 2).
Do you have any plans to explore the high-speed trains of China?