A simply fantastic video from you guys - one that we knew you'd do superbly. Enjoyed watching all of this, and we hope to see you guys again before too long. Great work.
...maybe a base model FRS/86/BRZ. Unless you plan to change a whole lot of parts, skip the base model (i.e. Don't pay extra for parts/features you are going to ditch/swap out anyway.)
@@K03sport It's a platform car, it's meant to be something you can change to fit you. Supercharger? Yes, they have it. Turbo? Yes, they have that. Unequal length headers? Yes, they have that. Suspension, etc. Yes the Miata is better stock but I don't know if I could live with it. The new one is going yo be exciting though, and I will probably get my hands on one eventually.
@@SidewaysLoveJP Nope, they require so much work to get updated and for how much they cost it's just not worth it. The ND2 was outpacing experienced S2K drivers as soon as it came out.
The S2000 is the only car I've ever owned that I could never part with. I hope that 40 or 50 years from now, long after I'm gone someone opens an old garage and discovers my S2000 and appreciates it as much as I did.
“Please take good care of your S2000, keep it by your side for long and enjoy it from the bottom of your heart. And share the quality and legacy of the S2000 with many friends so that the legend of the S2000 will continue for long” - Shigeru Uehara
People seem to forget that the S2000 when it debut competes with the Porsche Boxter, it's a higher performance category that's why it can still hang on.
@@aaronbryan5095 People also forget, that Porsche was nearly broke when they lunched the Boxster and even the 986 2.5 Boxster is more fun to drive than an s2000 and at least here in Germany it is as expensive to maintain a first gen boxster as it is to maintain a S2000. Furthermore the F20C engine of the S2000 is not reliable on the Autobahn. The real fun fact is, we did only get the 2l engine in germany, even in the ap2 with the ethrottle. Probably the holy grail of factory s2000 engines. Does not change the fact, that the are not bulletproof. In fact my e36 m3 eu spec is more bulletproof than an any S2000 and if i need parts they are a lot cheaper. The S2000 is the only car i ever had, that was broken most of the time i owned it and that inclued the first car i ever owned (which was a high milage 200sx ca18det).
@@amduser86 you must have bought a clapped out s2000 cuz mine has 400k and doesn't give me any issues. Sure the engines don't last but they don't quit, just start burning oil.
@@FroztiProductions They are just not autobahnproof in stock form. Most ap1 S2000 here in germany get a new engine before 100k. As far as i know they changed the oil squirter later on for better cooling of the pistons. But that did not solve the probleme entirely. What happens is, that the pistons get's to hot and than you have a piston jamming --> totally destroyed engine.
@Alyssamaybe Not really. Welcome to the german Autobahn were peole use all of the power for a very long time. Depending on where and when you are driving you can travel with 240km/h (or higher, depending on the car) for about 400 km (except for refuelling). That is more stressfull than racing ....
@@SneakerBrainz My newest edition is a 2003 with 24k (this year), second owner in mint! Put 50k on my first 2003 in less than 2 years. Not sure if I want to Supercharge or buy another and play. Put 1.2k on it, just getting her home. Gotta love those Suzuka blues with hard top!
Man the S2K is just the car that hits enthusiasts right on the money. The F1 inspired dash, the complete driver focused interior, true vtec, insanely high redline even for today that the car begs you to stab at, and the fact that it was created as pretty much a respect piece for Soichiro Honda. Love that Honda Motors kept their roots alive in this car. After all Soichiro did say, "Without Racing, There is No Honda". And the S2000 is a testament to that. *Chefs Kiss*
After years of videos comparing these models this might be the absolute best and most objective comparison between all 3. Most reviews get into personal and emotional arguments about each and you guys actually explain what these cars are about without that mess. BRAVO
I agree with you 99%. The 1% is that most people with either of these cars will never go to a track... And that is where the Miata's "body roll deficiency" actually becomes an outright plus: It is insanely fun to drive at legal speeds on a twisty forest/mountain road precisely because the body roll gives you the sensation of going fast when you're not. The feeling that the rear is dancing around while you're still miles from losing grip makes it "safe to be an idiot"... and that's good for the vast majority! :P
@@gigi9467 Aren't we all in a hypothetical situation where we have the time to take on motorsports, space in the garage yet not enough money to buy like an M3 or something?
@@f.a.r.m3207 if you stay below 100MPH, and below 75 for any cornering i doubt you'd notice. The miata feels a bit more stable and good to 150, but the s2000 felt capable to about 135ish but more 'aggressive' in engine and turn-in aka twitchy. For comparison, a 2000 Integra gs-r got weirdish around 140. These are all slower-speed cars not made for top-speed but handling. I have not had an 86 above 90, but it seemed like it would be fine, if not better for speed, it was a bit tame compared to the others and has a longer wheelbase. I think at this level there is more difference in tires than platform in the honda and mazda, with the 86 being a budget wildcard with more simple tech. ALL of these cars will benefit from a bit of aero, depending on use case. However, once the bottom is smoothed, more downforce will limit top speed, as they are all horsepower limited more than traction limited. If you have an s2000 and drive over 85mph a lot, fixing the underside is well worth it. Cheap alumilite, fiberglass, or even hdpe/coroplast sheets can work great of you perfer to DIY.
Dude I had to go from full screen to split to Type this comment mid video. That cutaway to you hammering the S2000 at 22 minutes was the reason I love cars. From my first EM1, to my 06 RSX-S and HR 350Z. I love high revving N/A cars. And this is IMO your best video yet. Love all 3 cars you reviewed. Excited for the new BRZ!
As a '19 ND2 owner this video really tickles my fancy Edit: I remember reading somewhere that the immense body roll of the ND was engineered in as a soft-limit (where if you maximize body roll, you only have a little more wiggle room until you break loose). Interior space is fantastic in the ND if you don't need a ton of space, it's my daily driver and it's treated me really well so far, good review!
I really like the ND2. I don't really get the narrator comparing "reliability" of an s2000 that has been out of warranty for a decade+ or an engine that routinely eats RTV and blows up to a very reliable and more powerful engine that is under warranty. If I could have found a nice s2k for a deal, I would have done that. But, they are going for more than I got my ND2 for NEW with a warranty and a budget to get a full aftermarket suspension setup...and every single s2k still had deficiencies I would have needed to fix on top of that. The used car market is waaay overinflated, to the point it doesn't even make sense.
Yup I remember hearing/reading that the body roll was indeed factored in when designing the car. It's designed to be a fun car that you can daily. It was never designed to be the fasted and most precise machine on a track or on back roads, although it is still very competent.
@@owenszulgit3792 used market is still overinflated, if not even more so, why do people expect me to pay north of 30k for a decent S2000 with like 50k miles, i understand appreciation, but honestly at that point just buy a miata club with a warranty (mazda now offers 6 years/100.000 mile warranty as standard btw), it used to be that the 30k and over S2000s were all very low mileage collector examples, like lower than 20k miles, now even a 60k mile car can go for 25k easily...
At first really makes me think a lot when I bought mine, because here in Germany my second hand ND2 are not that cheap compare to some Second hand BMWs. But mx-5 is always my dream car and really want to enjoy the cornering fun when I drive my fathers 911 and AMG GT, so I decide to go for the ND, which turns out I am glad I didn’t pick a normal 330i haha
I always hated them in yellow until I saw one in OEM yellow in real life and realised how beautiful the colour is. I'm now looking for a yellow one to make a forever car.
Put coilovers, stiffer sway bars and wider tires on ND2 and you solve almost all of it's problems, completely transforming the car into a grip machine.
@@OKMX5 the engine is fine, you just have to rev it to keep it moving. And the car is actually practical. The ability to do track days without a trailer is a pretty sweet feature compared to either of the cars lacking half their seats, 3/4 of their trunks, and a roof 😁
@@OKMX5 you could drive anything to the track in theory, but you wouldn't necessarily want to. If you intend to be properly prepared and bring tools, a jack, stands, air, a chair and cooler, and clothes for a couple days, you need a way to bring that stuff and it's not in an S2K or an MX5. Different strokes, I suppose.
High revs are cool but a a tsx k24a2 block/k20z3 Si head combo can deliver a reliable 250-260 wheel horsepower and a boatload of torque vs. the f22c in the ap2 S2000.
Honda makes the best 4 cylinder engines, hands down. If only they joined Toyota and Subaru and we got a rev happy vtec screamer Toyobaruda. After owning a miata and a civic and now a frs what I really want is the civic's engine in the frs.
Great test review. I owned a 2005 S2000 in yellow (like your test car) that I bought new in December 2004. I owned it for nine years. It was hands down the most fun to drive car I have ever owned. Climbing through about 6500 rpm and getting that kick in the ass as the VTEC cams kicked in...always brought a smile to my face.
Nailed it on every level. I have a ‘13 FRS with some minimal modifications since new (clutch/flywheel, dampers, stainless brake lines, better pads and rotors, tires, track delete exhaust from Nameless and a few other small things) and I absolutely love the car. I love that it’s paid off; I love that I can thrash the bloody piss out of it every time I drive it without guilt, fear or legal danger (at least not the kind I’d have with something like a 911); I love that it isn’t so precious I worry about rock chips, scratches or even binning it. I love to beat it, I love to go through tires and brake pads. I honestly don’t know how I could replace what it does for me, without suddenly winning the lottery and being able to afford a GT3RS...and be wealthy enough to abuse it like I do this car.
@@astronmr20 Again with the hp/L meme. hp/L only matters if you're racing in a strictly cc restricted class, that's it. For anything else, who the hell cares? Maybe if you live in a country like Japan where there are cc-based taxes, but even then a turbo car also skirts them and would be faster. Let's also remember the S2000 gets abysmal fuel economy for a 4 cylinder because of all of the efficiency-sucking parts needed to keep the rev limit high (heavier valve springs, et al). All so you can have a powerband you can't even use outside of a highway onramp in day to day driving. And let's be real here, everyone sits amazed at a 9k RPM redline...a sportbike revs to 16k and some of them make over 200 hp/L. And any savings in depreciation if offset by how much you'll have to spend keeping the S2000 going as everything starts breaking from age. Shit that almost never breaks on a new car starts going: hoses, wheel bearings, seals, etc. On their own, no big deal, but when it's dozens of the fuckers it takes a ton of time or money or both to get it right again.
I own both a 97 Grand Marquis and a 20 MX-5 and I cannot be happier! I have the best of 2 worlds: great room and comfort in the GM and the really funny stuff with the MX-5. They’re both reliable so no worries on being in the shop every couple of months. Thanks for your review, guys, you really let the people know how it feels to drive each car without being in it. Keep up the great stuff!
Last year I picked up an AP2. First non v8 I’ve ever owned. I can’t see myself ever parting with this car. I can’t believe how good this car feels, and how much joy it brings me. Bone stock other than sticky tires and upgraded super tech parts so it revs to 9k
The s2000 just brings that "legend" status with it... its simple and looks sooo good still, it almost seems worth it even with 100k on the motor... The price point of the s2000 is just the deal breaker here. With the ND2 up in price as well it almost pushes me to go to a used 350/370z, another simple NA v6 with a little more power... god my mind changes everyday... thanks for sharing this video. You have pushed me to appreciate driving characteristics more and more over the torque and hp numbers every video, think that comes with age as well... another point that everyone over looks when looking at other cars is just the fact of brakes and tires... with these cars you arent breaking the bank where with a corvette/cayman things add up quickly after a few or even one track day.. Keep up the good work!!
I have both an s2k and 350z. Get the S2k. It is worlds better and appreciating in value. One day s2k prices will hit what we are seeing with the Supra.
I’m in the same boat. Only big problem with these cars, specifically the S2000 and Miata is: will I fit comfortably being 6’3” without having to bolt the seat to the floor?
@@FireInTheMist8 i feel sorry to disappoint you but with these EV ass kissers ruling the planet now, all gasoline cars including the S which i also own will worth 5$ in the future
@@762x69 I 💯 agree. And even then, 1 day later I don't think it's bad! It kinda looks like a mini porsche from the 3/4. But again, the important thing is enjoying the drive, and that new torque curve looks 👌👌👌
@@DeletedDenizen right! I don't have an issue at all with the back end. I'm personally waiting for the front end of the 86 to see which I like more but it's a sleek coupe period. And true hard top coupes are in such short supply, we should just be grateful 😂
Have owned each one of these (and multiple examples in the case of the S2000 and the ND) and I can say that an ND2 Miata Club with springs, exhaust, headers, slightly wider tires is by far the most entertaining and fun car of the bunch. I realize that stock vs modified is always a rabbit hole but those slight tweaks are $2,500 ish and take advantage of that cars 2,300lb weight and elevate that car to a degree that makes it an even better drivers car than an S2k. And this is especially true for a novice driver that wants to start getting their feet wet with track driving because stock or modified the ND chassis is so much more forgiving than the S2000 as it just smears it’s tires into oversteer rather than the snap oversteer of the Honda .....and the ND has much more communicative steering. Negatives: as great as the ND2 engine is it doesn’t have as much character as the 9,000RPM engine in the AP1, but definitely on par with the AP2. The Toyota/Subaru was a fun car but not even close to the same league as these other 2 as far as pure driving experience
the lifeless engine of the Miatas just make them incomparable for me, but your right the Miata club was a great car. My friends step mom had one and would always take it for a rip haha
@@iMickel I don't think it's fair to call the engine lifeless considering it makes reasonable horsepower, and has a good torque band, and revs to 7500rpm.
@@Lord_Sunday123 fa20 is a dogshit motor......it sounds and feels very uninspiring....it doesn't rev smoothly, and not really responsive.... doesn't behave like a drivers engine.... Plus the fa20 doesn't like to make power.........
Amazing video guys, you hit the nail on the head. So many of us are obsessed with the spec sheet and numbers that we forget about actually enjoying the driving experience. If we could only quantify how something 'feels' then maybe people would stop obsessing over stat sheets. Great work.
Give me a fun car to drive that "feels" fast over a numb car that "is" fast any day of the week! Too many internet stat racers with fragile egos. Learn to control a car at the limit and find out how addicting it is.
FA24= 184 lbs/ft @ 3700rpm vs the FA20's 156 lbs/ft @6700 rpm. Horse power 228. Based on the new engines output figures, it should be smoother and tractable from lower rpm. Compared to the peaky and course FA20. Lots of aftermarket remedys to deal with the torque dip in these engines, once you throw on a header and tune, but the engines inate characteristics are still not the happy high rev nature found especially in the na VTEC era engines. The new BRZ has kept the weight within spitting distance of the old one, with aluminum in the roof, fenders, and hood. Lower cog, stiffer chassis, and combining all the suspension refinements from the old one, ( same basic Subaru platform bones). This next gen could be one of the last pure naturally aspirated simple rear wheel drive sports cars available going forward, especially with government mandated electrification and stringent emissions requirements. The old model was more fun to drive than fast, this new one will at least add some needed speed and drivability.
Never seen this channel, but the guy giving his input about these cars I could swear I met at the Hotel Hershey when I was a valet there. I’m driving an suv now, but hope to be able to pick up one of these three in a year or two.
One thing I will say about the suspension on the 86, doing aftermarket tophats on the PP/TRD suspension so you have camber adjustment without changing out to coilovers is a great route. For like $300 I now have full camber adjustment and the sachs dampers have amazing wheel control even on track, especially trying to drive the car everyday, I can be fully comfortable doing 700 miles in a day, but it also performs well enough for a street car on track
@@aaden4888 to add to helpfulness here is a link to them www.verus-engineering.com/shop/product/front-camber-plate-assembly-brz-frs-gt86-349 Took me 30 minutes to install as long as you have a pass through socket to get the top nut on and off
Hot damn, a technical deep-dive of three amazing cars. Mr. Goose always delivers. I'm excited to see Marc get a chance to drive the new BRZ, with all his experience with the first generation I want to see if Subaru/Toyota really improved it.
You guys have the most thorough reviews on the internet. I love that you do this, even if the formula isn't meant for "views" or "likes." The real car people appreciate and love this. Keep doing what you're doing.
I've doubled the miles on my MY00 AP1 as I approach my 10th year of ownership. I've been ego checked multiple times leading to crazy (lucky) saves. I've essentially learned how to drive in it, my first manual car. Now I'm in the process of restoring her after a run-in with highway debris, catching up on maintenance, squeezing in some upgrades, and making sure I can take my kids out when they're old enough so they can fall in love just as I did when I was a bachelor. My wife thought I was an absolute asshat. 30-something, two cars, no home, etc. Took several longer trips focused around food but she fell in love one evening as we cruised up the highway at a brisk pace catching sunset over the reservoir. A blanket of fog rolling over the mountains with warm air flowing over the cabin. Why the pretty picture? It means I won't have to sell it, ever. Get 'em emotionally attached, that's the key. Barely broken in at 145k miles. Now to get a lift in my garage to add another toy.
Best choice of cars for a video, not even Chris Harris would do affordable sports cars now. It's glad to see someone still seeing these cars as special ones. Thanks for the effort and keep it up guys.
These are absolute bangers all of them. Thank you so much for this unique perspective of these absolute beasts. P.S. my god that S2000 engine sound bit is what I think god sounds like.
I own an ND2 RF... love it. Your review makes me want to drive the other two just to feel the difference. I’m sure my choice a year and a half ago would still stand, but your ability to fairly review these cars still peaks my interest! Thanks
thats the issue, no one will give you one... they sell for as much as a new MX5 of the year full equiped and it will have 100k miles on it / a hole in the driver seat
3 great cars. I did my research which included hours of SG reviews on all 3. I bought my '19 MX5 RF Club this year as my weekend/back road attack weapon and I could not be happier. I Love this car. It's not perfect, but it's as close as you can get for the price. I love the bespoke chassis and suspension. It was designed for the street. If you want to turn it into a track car you can. You do need to be careful, even on the road though as mentioned the weight transfer will let that ass come around. SG should get a commission from Mazda for my purchase :) LOVE this car. It's my 3rd car and I don't track it so it's exactly what I want.
I really liked this comparison, the one thing I missed was you two talking about how difficult and costly it is to correct the deficiencies of the cars. Something like „You can easily correct the rev happiness of the 86 with headers and a good tune but you cannot correct the steering feel of the S2000...“ and so on. Maybe you could do a segment like this. I know this was a stock to stock comparisons but I guess most viewers of this channel would consider at least lightly modifying their car. And then it‘s interesting to know which one of these is the best platform to build upon in terms of eliminating their weaknesses.
Name another channel producing basically short films on modern/semi modern cars with this much detail and in-depth comparison. p.s. Mr Goose/Singapore I am very thankful you go through all the effort to make a 40 minute video on something like this. This is a very special channel
its crazy how the s2000 still has a perfectly modern design even next to these cars, i am 100% serious saying that they could bring it back with the exterior design completely unchanged now
I've been saying that pretty much since it was created, the design is so timeless and modern, so simple, and the lights look like from later era, not 2000
Crash regulations have come such a long ways since those days that, even for that reason alone, they'd have to modify the design significantly to sell it as a new car today.
but... but.... 9k RPM... No, no. I can understand you, i bought mine now a couple months back. The feeling the S2k gives you while driving is just not comparable to anything, and i drove alot of cars, even for my somewhat young age.
@@1HeatWalk Maybe some people would, but I have a pretty high tolerance for uncomfortable cars. The bigger issue is the single tub body and the car being extremely low makes every speed bump, curb, incline incredibly stressful
Gear ratios are close enough that you are never out of VTEC on the track or when driving hard. It runs 4000 RPM at 75 MPH, but you've always got a gear ratio where the car will be on the cam.
Love Savage Geese video's. The 2016 ND Miata review was a reason for Buying my current daily driver a 2016 MX-5 Club soft top with the Brembo / BBS package. So that 2016 ND review said you can't daily drive an ND in a cold climate. I've done it with buying a winter tire / wheel package from the TireRack ! I'm single BTW. I think the MX-5 is an under rated winter car as it perfect balance really shows in the bad weather. After watching this video I'm going to have to visit this track next spring not too far away from me.
Brilliant. I had both an AP1 and AP2 a while back. Cars I wish I never sold ("Spa Yellow", like yours). It is a shame most for sale have been molested by their previous owners. Great and relevant comparison. Keep 'em coming, Mark.
I owned an AP2 and now an ND2. Both are awesome cars in their own way. Outside of driving preferences I think the S2000 has the exclusivity due to it being out of production, many were wrecked/rice out, and it has aged well. Only wished I would have purchased a nicer AP2 since they will appreciate in value.
I love my ND1 and it puts a smile on my face every time I get it out on the road. I agree that it is not the best car as a daily driver and mine is used on the weekends as my second car. I really wish Honda would put out a reasonably priced modern S2000 or variant, as that would definitely be a car I would move to from my Mazda. Mark, thanks again for the great presentation of all three.
Such great automotive content! How can you still only have 400k subscribers?! I’ve been a subscriber since ~100k, and you’ve always had such a high level of production, quality content and honest reviews. Don’t ever change, Mark! 👍
The S2000 is a compromise car - half the gas mileage, spine compressing ride quality, and crash ratings that are no where near a modern car. Ask me how I know, I own an AP1 and an ND1.
I'm actually looking to get an MX5 ND2 (probably 2024 new) and for myself coming from old jeeps, a 2005 base Toyota Matrix (keeping as a daily driver) I want all the new features of the ND2, but love that it has not gone extreme with tech in it. It feels like a really nice balance for a car these days. It can perform very well on the street but also be taken right to a track. I found it interesting that they say the ND2 is better on the street, I was shocked how well it drove when I test drove one and took it to my local streets that are very rough. My GF and I were expecting a rough ride and it rode better then our daily cars. I know this doesn't help on the track but for the vast majority of people this is a huge plus and makes a lot of sense. The people who want to tighten up the suspension can do it quite easily and get the exact car they want. S2000 will always be an amazing car, but I see the ND2 being very popular in the future as cars get more and more tech, and more towards electric/hybrid. Hell there are a lot of rumors that the ND2 may be the last non-electric model based on the way the world is going. I don't see that you can go wrong with the ND2. That being said the S2000 has to be one of the best looking cars ever made. It just feels right. Locally S2000's, if you can find them, are pushing pretty close to the cost of a used ND1 or ND2, and it isn't much more for a brand new ND2.
So true. I have a 2013 BRZ. And it puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. But you are right. Those 215 suck for performance. I’m running 245 now with a FortuneAuto coilovers. This car came alive with this setup.
Videos like these are why this channel is among the best on RUclips for car reviews. What's also appreciated by viewers like me, is the level of objective analysis, and bringing in 2 different points of view to debate, when you and Jack discuss the objective points about every car you review. Keep it up Mark!
I’ve run car dealerships my whole life, driven everything. The MIATA is the best car by miles, I know it needs a few tweaks to the suspension, so add $2k for suspension and sways. Then the car is nearly flawless. The S2k has some real flaws, strange door height, power band issues, raspy motor, goofy dash, and weak brakes; still a fun car. I’ve owned both gens (Honda) and all 4 gens of Miatas. Everyone that drives my slightly modified Miata’s gets out and says “holy crap, most fun car I’ve ever driven’, duh. The BRZ twins, not even close. The other thing to remember is that an S2k would be $45k today, which makes the 30k Miata that much more amazing. So go buy a Club, put springs and sways on it or go Ohlin coilovers and be amazed. Plus, the car is probably the most reliable car built in the industry, followed by 4-runners and Tacoma’s. And for reference, I currently run a high end German Brand.
Great video❗️ I had a 2015 FR-S for 4 years then traded it in for a 2019 Miata. I do agree the 86 has better steering less body roll but as my every day driver I’m enjoying the smoother ride of the Miata. Not slowing down so much for every speed bump rough road or parking lot entrance. Plus it’s my first convertible and living In Arizona tops almost always down, really enjoying that part of it! Not everyone needs a back seat, not an issue for me and not everyone tracks their car. I also like the fact that you can rev the Miatas engine to redline without sounding like your killing it. I do miss a few things about the FR-S . The seating position and layout was absolutely perfect, most comfortable I’ve ever been in a car. Miatas close but the steering wheel still needs more adjustability. Plus a flat 4’s exhaust note when you add a UEL header and the right exhaust is like no other.
2003 S2000 was the only one i had the greatest of pleasure to drive. It was a pocket-rocket, very balanced, suspension just right, not to tight, not too loose, and that car is amazing on long sweeping curves. The perfect roadster for me.
I agree, I think putting that engine in would help that platform tremendously. It may not sound like a big jump in power but considering how light that car is to begin with, it’ll certainly help.
@@budzilla6168 its actually for me quite a step forward in terms of styling. The new one is just more of a grown up looking car and less of a parts bin type of style.
Tripped over one video when looking into the LFA carbon weaving loom, and here I am 4 hours later. As someone actually trying to figure out which sportscar to buy this video is utterly invaluable. I've test driven two of these three in the last week and can absolutely agree with your resulting opinions, albeit I am still trying to find an affordable S2K. You and your team legitimately have a better process, and thereby a better end product than any of the corporates in car media. True enthusiasts that remain unbiased is something the media consumer simply hasn't had access to until now, and it almost hurts remembering all my years of magazine subscriptions and dvd purchases and blah blah... Thank you for your great work, if I could sub twice I definitely would.
I'm so frustrated every time I see a video review writing off the ND because of its body roll. Sure, that's a choice by Mazda , but a set of Flyin Miata springs and Konis instantly changes the car to the great streetable/trackable balance Mark praises the S2k for. What's easier, changing a set of springs or fixing the Honda's steering feel? While Mark does give the slightest passing nod to this fact, and I get that it's "fair" to only compare bone stock cars, it starts to feel like an excuse for S2k faithful to not admit that it's finally been matched (and maybe surpassed) by another car.
S2k - the only sports car I've owned (out of quite a few, from cheap to pricey) that I confirm every week I am not going to sell but drive to the ground...
@@Swedester Not even half the sports car the S2000 was. Sucks in every single track test. Just something to show off in Dubai or on the Las Vegas strip.
A base 981 manual cayman is also a great alternative to these cars. Still a bit out of the price segment of these amazing cars, but still reachable IMHO. I daily drive my 981, rain or snow, and it has never left me down. Best balanced, last of the NA flat-6, most rewarding shifter, no steering feel (electric steering), but incredibly direct, and so light (2880lbs) for a modern car. Try to get a 2014 for the lowest price. And it will appreciate if kept well and kept stock. So in many ways, similar to the AP2 but better aero. Great review as always! 👍🏻
I am 5'4 weighing 178 pounds. I own a 2005 Honda s2000 AP2. I got the chance to drive my friends ND2 club with only 100 miles on it yesterday. I didn't get to rev the ND2 on my drive since the engine still needs to be broken in. Here are the takeaways from my experience: The ND2 interior fits me like a glove for my short stature while the s2000 is bigger and feels more lose for me. The Recaro seats does a better job keeping me in my seat compared to my stock s2k seats. Having an updated radio with LED screen that has an apple/android car play is a big plus! The ND2 feels way lighter. It is 500 pounds lighter compared to the s2k. Because the car is smaller and lighter, the ND2 feels more fun/faster than the s2k going at the same speeds. The ND2 feels more torque than the s2k so it is more fun and friendlier for city driving. My s2k feels like a civic under 6k RPM and it only gets fun in the back roads when there are no constant stop and go lights. The clutch engagement level on the ND2 is immediate when you are a few millimeters from depressing the clutch at the bottum while the S2k clutch engagement level is really high when the clutch peddle is almost completely depressed. The plus i have for the S2k in my opinion is the feel of the manual transmission. The s2k transmission has more weight on the shifter (the ND2 shifter feels like a hollow plastic toy), the throws between gears are shorter, the shifts feel alittle more tight and precise, and the trunk space is bigger being able to store a spare tire leaving enough room to fit in your flat tire as well (ND2 doesn't come with a spare tire; it only comes with a fix it flat). Looks are subjective, but I think the S2k exterior styling looks more simple and mature compared to the ND2. In the end, I was blown away how well the ND2 drives and it actually made me want to get one. It is a great sports car to buy compared the S2k since they are no longer in production and the prices on used s2ks in good condition keeps going up. The ND2 is more fun as a daily driver at lower speeds for city because of having more low end torque while the s2k is more fun driving at higher speeds because VTEC doesn't come on till 6000 RPM. If you are a bigger person you might feel more comfortable in a S2k because the ND2 is way smaller and cramped in the interior, but the steering wheel on the ND2 can telescope which is helpful.
A simply fantastic video from you guys - one that we knew you'd do superbly. Enjoyed watching all of this, and we hope to see you guys again before too long. Great work.
Thanks paul and Todd. Hopefully next year our planned meet actually happens. Look forward to seeing you guys at the next event.
@@jackholmes8105 yeee
Ok
Would love a cross over between you guys!
BUT, The BRZ / GR86 can't turn right tho (w/ out dropping oil pressure)
No one loses, buying any of those cars is a win for enthusiasts
Nah if it wasnt the s2k you lost lol
...maybe a base model FRS/86/BRZ. Unless you plan to change a whole lot of parts, skip the base model (i.e. Don't pay extra for parts/features you are going to ditch/swap out anyway.)
@@K03sport why? It still gets an LSD unlike base Miatas
@@K03sport It's a platform car, it's meant to be something you can change to fit you. Supercharger? Yes, they have it. Turbo? Yes, they have that. Unequal length headers? Yes, they have that. Suspension, etc. Yes the Miata is better stock but I don't know if I could live with it. The new one is going yo be exciting though, and I will probably get my hands on one eventually.
@@SidewaysLoveJP Nope, they require so much work to get updated and for how much they cost it's just not worth it. The ND2 was outpacing experienced S2K drivers as soon as it came out.
S2000 is still here 20yrs later, what a car man
$50k in today's money.
Still looks just as good as well
@@ericdolby1622 I've seen that price with the low mileage and kept decent
@@Apollo_s2k I don't think that car will ever gets ugly or outdated, everytime I see one, I'm like man this is a True driver's car right there.
Looks about like a modern car still too
The title says, "Who Will Lose" but we all know all three of these cars are simply a win.
Thank you savagegeese as always for the thorough review.
Lol either you’ve never driven the shitbox underpowered rattle trap that is the frs, or you’ve never driven an s2000
@@willyjameshuffI've driven all of the models in the video. All your descriptions of the cars are subjective. So uh... Yeah no but good for you.
The S2000 is the only car I've ever owned that I could never part with. I hope that 40 or 50 years from now, long after I'm gone someone opens an old garage and discovers my S2000 and appreciates it as much as I did.
If it makes you feel better, the only people paying the S2000 premium these days are the ones who'll appreciate them.
Same here, not letting go... S2000 forever.
I just bought one!!! Babied low mileage laguna blue 2007
@@fhowland Congrats man! I'd suggest getting involved with your local S2000 group and always be safe!
A friends dream car was an s2000 and he finally bought one for like 35k and then he died a few years later of cancer but he loved that car
“Please take good care of your S2000, keep it by your side for long and enjoy it from the bottom of your heart. And share the quality and legacy of the S2000 with many friends so that the legend of the S2000 will continue for long” - Shigeru Uehara
2 decades later and the s2000 looks as modern and holds up with the rest of them. Wow
People seem to forget that the S2000 when it debut competes with the Porsche Boxter, it's a higher performance category that's why it can still hang on.
@@aaronbryan5095
People also forget, that Porsche was nearly broke when they lunched the Boxster and even the 986 2.5 Boxster is more fun to drive than an s2000 and at least here in Germany it is as expensive to maintain a first gen boxster as it is to maintain a S2000. Furthermore the F20C engine of the S2000 is not reliable on the Autobahn. The real fun fact is, we did only get the 2l engine in germany, even in the ap2 with the ethrottle. Probably the holy grail of factory s2000 engines. Does not change the fact, that the are not bulletproof. In fact my e36 m3 eu spec is more bulletproof than an any S2000 and if i need parts they are a lot cheaper. The S2000 is the only car i ever had, that was broken most of the time i owned it and that inclued the first car i ever owned (which was a high milage 200sx ca18det).
@@amduser86 you must have bought a clapped out s2000 cuz mine has 400k and doesn't give me any issues. Sure the engines don't last but they don't quit, just start burning oil.
@@FroztiProductions
They are just not autobahnproof in stock form. Most ap1 S2000 here in germany get a new engine before 100k. As far as i know they changed the oil squirter later on for better cooling of the pistons. But that did not solve the probleme entirely. What happens is, that the pistons get's to hot and than you have a piston jamming --> totally destroyed engine.
@Alyssamaybe
Not really. Welcome to the german Autobahn were peole use all of the power for a very long time. Depending on where and when you are driving you can travel with 240km/h (or higher, depending on the car) for about 400 km (except for refuelling). That is more stressfull than racing ....
Sunny day, open road, top down, and the buzzing of a Japanese sports car.
@Bryce Czirr you can always make it a convertible yourself
I can't get over how whenever Mark makes any point, Jack looks to his right, eyes closed, arms folded, and nods in sage agreement.
haha ya. mark also says "again" far too often. overall stellar content from these guys though
When Jacks eyes roll back i lose it LOL
Sage agreement lol
XD
These guys' mannerisms are awfully off-putting in general lol
Proud AP1 S2000 owner here. Glad to see the car I bought 19 years ago is still standing the test of time! Here's to 19 more and beyond.
I like the Ap2
Well done. Never selling my S2000. It just delivers a hell of a fun and unique driving experience.
But the ap1 sucks
Marloon Thanks for the silly, baseless comment.
Same, bought mine about 5 years ago. Brings a smile to my face every time I drive it. Truly an amazing car that I will never part with.
@@marloon88 9k all day
Love my AP@ GPW S2K and never selling it!
No losers here. I would own all three.
I'd still put the 86/brz just a notch below the other two.
@@phattoni2117 same
My thoughts exactly. These cars are all fun, all reliable, all affordable... ish.
May I add one more, for 4? Though not in the same class, the 318/325 iS. Same kind of driving fun, at less scary speeds.
The 86 and Miata are the losers here.
Surprisingly, after almost 18 years, my S2000 still looking like new and it just crossed the 100k miles.
100k miles in any honda is like brand new
Dang barely 100k on an 18 year old car. Impressive
@@interceptingfist5682 I have a 2003 s2k with 57k lmaooo
@@SneakerBrainz My newest edition is a 2003 with 24k (this year), second owner in mint! Put 50k on my first 2003 in less than 2 years. Not sure if I want to Supercharge or buy another and play. Put 1.2k on it, just getting her home. Gotta love those Suzuka blues with hard top!
I’m almost at 160k on mine, and you wouldnt think it had more than 40k when you see/feel it.
The fact that the S2000 is in this list and 20 years younger is amazing
Man the S2K is just the car that hits enthusiasts right on the money. The F1 inspired dash, the complete driver focused interior, true vtec, insanely high redline even for today that the car begs you to stab at, and the fact that it was created as pretty much a respect piece for Soichiro Honda. Love that Honda Motors kept their roots alive in this car. After all Soichiro did say, "Without Racing, There is No Honda". And the S2000 is a testament to that. *Chefs Kiss*
After years of videos comparing these models this might be the absolute best and most objective comparison between all 3. Most reviews get into personal and emotional arguments about each and you guys actually explain what these cars are about without that mess. BRAVO
I come here for the cut and dry content. Also i love the the extreme depth they go into. I want to know everything, the whats and why's etc etc
Your debating which to get??
I agree with you 99%. The 1% is that most people with either of these cars will never go to a track... And that is where the Miata's "body roll deficiency" actually becomes an outright plus: It is insanely fun to drive at legal speeds on a twisty forest/mountain road precisely because the body roll gives you the sensation of going fast when you're not. The feeling that the rear is dancing around while you're still miles from losing grip makes it "safe to be an idiot"... and that's good for the vast majority! :P
@@andersjjensen well said and thats why the miata will never be discontinued or be a dissapointinment in sales
@@gigi9467 Aren't we all in a hypothetical situation where we have the time to take on motorsports, space in the garage yet not enough money to buy like an M3 or something?
I currently have a nd2 soft top, used to have an s2000. Best two cars I've ever owned.
Is that really any tech defect about the aero design on s2k or it was just too fast on rotation that scared armature people? In your opinion.
Same and agree.
@@f.a.r.m3207 if you stay below 100MPH, and below 75 for any cornering i doubt you'd notice. The miata feels a bit more stable and good to 150, but the s2000 felt capable to about 135ish but more 'aggressive' in engine and turn-in aka twitchy. For comparison, a 2000 Integra gs-r got weirdish around 140. These are all slower-speed cars not made for top-speed but handling. I have not had an 86 above 90, but it seemed like it would be fine, if not better for speed, it was a bit tame compared to the others and has a longer wheelbase. I think at this level there is more difference in tires than platform in the honda and mazda, with the 86 being a budget wildcard with more simple tech.
ALL of these cars will benefit from a bit of aero, depending on use case. However, once the bottom is smoothed, more downforce will limit top speed, as they are all horsepower limited more than traction limited. If you have an s2000 and drive over 85mph a lot, fixing the underside is well worth it. Cheap alumilite, fiberglass, or even hdpe/coroplast sheets can work great of you perfer to DIY.
@@nobodynoone2500 thanks for your detailed information. I rarely drove each of them above 100MPH, so I'm glad you expanded my vision on car design.
Dude I had to go from full screen to split to Type this comment mid video. That cutaway to you hammering the S2000 at 22 minutes was the reason I love cars. From my first EM1, to my 06 RSX-S and HR 350Z. I love high revving N/A cars. And this is IMO your best video yet. Love all 3 cars you reviewed. Excited for the new BRZ!
You have a very good taste in cars my friend
I should have never sold my 2007 S2000. I miss that car every day.
I just bought a 07, so excited!
now u gotta pay the price for one which can fetch over 40k
As a '19 ND2 owner this video really tickles my fancy
Edit: I remember reading somewhere that the immense body roll of the ND was engineered in as a soft-limit (where if you maximize body roll, you only have a little more wiggle room until you break loose). Interior space is fantastic in the ND if you don't need a ton of space, it's my daily driver and it's treated me really well so far, good review!
I really like the ND2. I don't really get the narrator comparing "reliability" of an s2000 that has been out of warranty for a decade+ or an engine that routinely eats RTV and blows up to a very reliable and more powerful engine that is under warranty.
If I could have found a nice s2k for a deal, I would have done that. But, they are going for more than I got my ND2 for NEW with a warranty and a budget to get a full aftermarket suspension setup...and every single s2k still had deficiencies I would have needed to fix on top of that.
The used car market is waaay overinflated, to the point it doesn't even make sense.
Yup I remember hearing/reading that the body roll was indeed factored in when designing the car. It's designed to be a fun car that you can daily. It was never designed to be the fasted and most precise machine on a track or on back roads, although it is still very competent.
@@ayushmalpeddi2793 Miatas are designed as blank slate roadsters. Its up to you what to do with it.
@@owenszulgit3792 used market is still overinflated, if not even more so, why do people expect me to pay north of 30k for a decent S2000 with like 50k miles, i understand appreciation, but honestly at that point just buy a miata club with a warranty (mazda now offers 6 years/100.000 mile warranty as standard btw), it used to be that the 30k and over S2000s were all very low mileage collector examples, like lower than 20k miles, now even a 60k mile car can go for 25k easily...
Owning any of these 3 makes you a winner.
Thank you so much for this video.
True, your going to have significantly more fun than a eco box or crossover for the same price.
At first really makes me think a lot when I bought mine, because here in Germany my second hand ND2 are not that cheap compare to some Second hand BMWs. But mx-5 is always my dream car and really want to enjoy the cornering fun when I drive my fathers 911 and AMG GT, so I decide to go for the ND, which turns out I am glad I didn’t pick a normal 330i haha
@@HCChen86 I think you definitely made the right choice. Congratulations sir.
The S2000 is just beautiful. And yellow, oof man i love it.
Eatch day I wak up hoping a s3000 is out
Yep, the only car that does yellow better than S2000 might be Gallardo
I always hated them in yellow until I saw one in OEM yellow in real life and realised how beautiful the colour is. I'm now looking for a yellow one to make a forever car.
@@pleasedontwatchthese9593 it probably with with hybrid/full electric drive train and all that tech. It will weigh like an elephant.
The car enthusiast community thanks you so much for making this video. You guys are the best.
Put coilovers, stiffer sway bars and wider tires on ND2 and you solve almost all of it's problems, completely transforming the car into a grip machine.
The 86 only really needs camber plates and tires, also
@@yuriabmxr but the engine will be lacking compared to ND2 and that is much harder to fix.
@@OKMX5 the engine is fine, you just have to rev it to keep it moving. And the car is actually practical. The ability to do track days without a trailer is a pretty sweet feature compared to either of the cars lacking half their seats, 3/4 of their trunks, and a roof 😁
@@yuriabmxr you don't need a trailer with any of the cars, just drive to the track on semi-slick tires.
@@OKMX5 you could drive anything to the track in theory, but you wouldn't necessarily want to. If you intend to be properly prepared and bring tools, a jack, stands, air, a chair and cooler, and clothes for a couple days, you need a way to bring that stuff and it's not in an S2K or an MX5. Different strokes, I suppose.
When you know about cars you know this is where all the fun is.
I would still go with the S2000
Just an amazing car
I just love the s2k. There is just something about these high revving Honda 4 cylinders I always want more.
High revs are cool but a a tsx k24a2 block/k20z3 Si head combo can deliver a reliable 250-260 wheel horsepower and a boatload of torque vs. the f22c in the ap2 S2000.
Honda makes the best 4 cylinder engines, hands down. If only they joined Toyota and Subaru and we got a rev happy vtec screamer Toyobaruda. After owning a miata and a civic and now a frs what I really want is the civic's engine in the frs.
@@ruthnoya8424 f22c is the best motor Honda has produced.
@@AnonymousDawg016
How so?
@@ruthnoya8424 shit the j35 is better than k series.
I once forgot to hit like on a Savage Geese video and then lost on the scratch ticket my grandmother got me.
That’s karma for ya
Great test review. I owned a 2005 S2000 in yellow (like your test car) that I bought new in December 2004. I owned it for nine years. It was hands down the most fun to drive car I have ever owned. Climbing through about 6500 rpm and getting that kick in the ass as the VTEC cams kicked in...always brought a smile to my face.
Nailed it on every level. I have a ‘13 FRS with some minimal modifications since new (clutch/flywheel, dampers, stainless brake lines, better pads and rotors, tires, track delete exhaust from Nameless and a few other small things) and I absolutely love the car. I love that it’s paid off; I love that I can thrash the bloody piss out of it every time I drive it without guilt, fear or legal danger (at least not the kind I’d have with something like a 911); I love that it isn’t so precious I worry about rock chips, scratches or even binning it. I love to beat it, I love to go through tires and brake pads. I honestly don’t know how I could replace what it does for me, without suddenly winning the lottery and being able to afford a GT3RS...and be wealthy enough to abuse it like I do this car.
I can relate! Mine is a stock '14 (except tires and pads) and it's just a guilt free car to toss around
Man, that power to weight ratio really shows on the ND, I was pretty surprised to see it take off like that compared to the other 2 cars
Like a affordable, reliable, Japanese lotus.
S2000 is a great car but dont forget its original price point
~$40,000 in today's money
@@tayljordan 32k 20 years ago? I don't know the math (3% a year?) but I feel like it's even more than that.
@@tayljordan I remember this because I couldn't afford it at the time
Yes, but it's depreciated far slower. And us the only car with a bespoke engine here that broke production records in horsepower per liter.
@@astronmr20 Again with the hp/L meme. hp/L only matters if you're racing in a strictly cc restricted class, that's it. For anything else, who the hell cares? Maybe if you live in a country like Japan where there are cc-based taxes, but even then a turbo car also skirts them and would be faster. Let's also remember the S2000 gets abysmal fuel economy for a 4 cylinder because of all of the efficiency-sucking parts needed to keep the rev limit high (heavier valve springs, et al). All so you can have a powerband you can't even use outside of a highway onramp in day to day driving. And let's be real here, everyone sits amazed at a 9k RPM redline...a sportbike revs to 16k and some of them make over 200 hp/L.
And any savings in depreciation if offset by how much you'll have to spend keeping the S2000 going as everything starts breaking from age. Shit that almost never breaks on a new car starts going: hoses, wheel bearings, seals, etc. On their own, no big deal, but when it's dozens of the fuckers it takes a ton of time or money or both to get it right again.
Would donate a kidney to see Mark, Jack, and Scott do a top-gear style roadtrip in these 3 cars
Yea , like to the Dragon & all roads around it ! That would be a great video to see !
With a couple of long days squeezed between trucks on the Interstate, in the rain, for that real Top Gear flavor.
I'd sponsor that.
Get the knife!
I own both a 97 Grand Marquis and a 20 MX-5 and I cannot be happier! I have the best of 2 worlds: great room and comfort in the GM and the really funny stuff with the MX-5. They’re both reliable so no worries on being in the shop every couple of months. Thanks for your review, guys, you really let the people know how it feels to drive each car without being in it. Keep up the great stuff!
that grand marquis will be running long after the world is over
Last year I picked up an AP2. First non v8 I’ve ever owned. I can’t see myself ever parting with this car. I can’t believe how good this car feels, and how much joy it brings me. Bone stock other than sticky tires and upgraded super tech parts so it revs to 9k
The s2000 just brings that "legend" status with it... its simple and looks sooo good still, it almost seems worth it even with 100k on the motor... The price point of the s2000 is just the deal breaker here. With the ND2 up in price as well it almost pushes me to go to a used 350/370z, another simple NA v6 with a little more power... god my mind changes everyday... thanks for sharing this video. You have pushed me to appreciate driving characteristics more and more over the torque and hp numbers every video, think that comes with age as well... another point that everyone over looks when looking at other cars is just the fact of brakes and tires... with these cars you arent breaking the bank where with a corvette/cayman things add up quickly after a few or even one track day.. Keep up the good work!!
I have both an s2k and 350z. Get the S2k. It is worlds better and appreciating in value. One day s2k prices will hit what we are seeing with the Supra.
I’m in the same boat. Only big problem with these cars, specifically the S2000 and Miata is: will I fit comfortably being 6’3” without having to bolt the seat to the floor?
@@FireInTheMist8 i feel sorry to disappoint you but with these EV ass kissers ruling the planet now, all gasoline cars including the S which i also own will worth 5$ in the future
@@endless_touge Since EVs will take over, old classic petrol cars would be more desirable...
think about the way the s2000 holds value tho... you put out the money out front to buy it but it will stay the most valuable as you own it
Planning on getting the 2022 brz/86. I like the improvements.
I love the design its funny how everyone is haiting it already🧐🤣
@@Xehanortlw i hear the haters but styling isn't everything to me lol. This is a practical driver's car. Should be celebrated like the 240 🤷🏽♂️
@@762x69 I 💯 agree. And even then, 1 day later I don't think it's bad! It kinda looks like a mini porsche from the 3/4.
But again, the important thing is enjoying the drive, and that new torque curve looks 👌👌👌
Same here I will wait till he makes a review on it.
@@DeletedDenizen right! I don't have an issue at all with the back end. I'm personally waiting for the front end of the 86 to see which I like more but it's a sleek coupe period. And true hard top coupes are in such short supply, we should just be grateful 😂
Have owned each one of these (and multiple examples in the case of the S2000 and the ND) and I can say that an ND2 Miata Club with springs, exhaust, headers, slightly wider tires is by far the most entertaining and fun car of the bunch. I realize that stock vs modified is always a rabbit hole but those slight tweaks are $2,500 ish and take advantage of that cars 2,300lb weight and elevate that car to a degree that makes it an even better drivers car than an S2k. And this is especially true for a novice driver that wants to start getting their feet wet with track driving because stock or modified the ND chassis is so much more forgiving than the S2000 as it just smears it’s tires into oversteer rather than the snap oversteer of the Honda .....and the ND has much more communicative steering. Negatives: as great as the ND2 engine is it doesn’t have as much character as the 9,000RPM engine in the AP1, but definitely on par with the AP2.
The Toyota/Subaru was a fun car but not even close to the same league as these other 2 as far as pure driving experience
the lifeless engine of the Miatas just make them incomparable for me, but your right the Miata club was a great car. My friends step mom had one and would always take it for a rip haha
@@iMickel I don't think it's fair to call the engine lifeless considering it makes reasonable horsepower, and has a good torque band, and revs to 7500rpm.
@@Lord_Sunday123 drive a s2000 and you will call it lifeless haha. But yeah they forsure improved them with the latest Miatas makes some better power
Which exhaust would you recommend on a nd2?
@@Lord_Sunday123 fa20 is a dogshit motor......it sounds and feels very uninspiring....it doesn't rev smoothly, and not really responsive.... doesn't behave like a drivers engine.... Plus the fa20 doesn't like to make power.........
S2000 is such an awesome car but you’ve gotta remember it was expensive when it was released.
And it’s getting more expensive every year because it’s getting rarer and people are starting to appreciate its value
@@grecopaok it’s not getting over $40k yet bro calm down 😂
@@miguelfragoso7023 never said that bruh. All I said was the price is increasing just like the rx7 fd
@@grecopaok he just salty cause he has a BRZ
@@liamnissanS2K 😂
S2000: weekend racer
86: the daily office car
Nd miata: the afternoon feel good drive
Except the ND is the ACTUAL weekend racer of the bunch.
I disagree. ND is probably the best race car out of the three, with the S2000 second. 86 is a spirited commuter. Like a Celica with rear-wheel drive
I daily my S2000. Lots of others do.
@@mdcohen I would daily mine as well, but if I had all 3, that would be the order
@@turbodarkle Yep thats why there are many Mazda Miata/MX-5 cups around the world. Easy to access, more parts available and cheaper to maintain.
This video might get the most views ever for SG. Hits the sweet spot for a
lot of their viewers.
Amazing video guys, you hit the nail on the head. So many of us are obsessed with the spec sheet and numbers that we forget about actually enjoying the driving experience. If we could only quantify how something 'feels' then maybe people would stop obsessing over stat sheets. Great work.
Give me a fun car to drive that "feels" fast over a numb car that "is" fast any day of the week! Too many internet stat racers with fragile egos. Learn to control a car at the limit and find out how addicting it is.
@@jonnyspeed Correct. I couldn't think of anything worse than driving say, a Nissan GTR. It takes you for a drive. Computer controlled.
Can't wait till Savage gets his hands on the 2022 BRZ, that car looks very promising with the removal of torque dip.
No turbo
@@followthegrow108 to be honest I think it's more special with a good NA. They're getting rarer.
@@astronmr20 yeah thats if its a good na. Which pretty sure it wont.
FA24= 184 lbs/ft @ 3700rpm vs the FA20's 156 lbs/ft @6700 rpm. Horse power 228. Based on the new engines output figures, it should be smoother and tractable from lower rpm. Compared to the peaky and course FA20. Lots of aftermarket remedys to deal with the torque dip in these engines, once you throw on a header and tune, but the engines inate characteristics are still not the happy high rev nature found especially in the na VTEC era engines. The new BRZ has kept the weight within spitting distance of the old one, with aluminum in the roof, fenders, and hood. Lower cog, stiffer chassis, and combining all the suspension refinements from the old one, ( same basic Subaru platform bones). This next gen could be one of the last pure naturally aspirated simple rear wheel drive sports cars available going forward, especially with government mandated electrification and stringent emissions requirements. The old model was more fun to drive than fast, this new one will at least add some needed speed and drivability.
@@followthegrow108 plenty aftermarket.
Never seen this channel, but the guy giving his input about these cars I could swear I met at the Hotel Hershey when I was a valet there. I’m driving an suv now, but hope to be able to pick up one of these three in a year or two.
You probably confused me some other boring white guy!
"each one of these cars is going to make you feel something"
Fantastic end summary!
Never clicked on savagegeese that fast before.
S2K Still. Is. Special.
One thing I will say about the suspension on the 86, doing aftermarket tophats on the PP/TRD suspension so you have camber adjustment without changing out to coilovers is a great route.
For like $300 I now have full camber adjustment and the sachs dampers have amazing wheel control even on track, especially trying to drive the car everyday, I can be fully comfortable doing 700 miles in a day, but it also performs well enough for a street car on track
This is an insanely helpful comment
@@aaden4888 to add to helpfulness here is a link to them
www.verus-engineering.com/shop/product/front-camber-plate-assembly-brz-frs-gt86-349
Took me 30 minutes to install as long as you have a pass through socket to get the top nut on and off
And for a couple hundred more, some adjustable rear lower control arms giving you adjustable camber in the rear too! 🤗 #LoveMy86
On top of that, one can get up to -1.75º of front camber by just buying $22 SPC 81305 Camber Bolts on Amazon with Prime delivery.
This is really helpful to someone considering these cars, thank you! Unfortunately this makes choosing just one even harder lol
Hot damn, a technical deep-dive of three amazing cars. Mr. Goose always delivers.
I'm excited to see Marc get a chance to drive the new BRZ, with all his experience with the first generation I want to see if Subaru/Toyota really improved it.
You guys have the most thorough reviews on the internet. I love that you do this, even if the formula isn't meant for "views" or "likes." The real car people appreciate and love this. Keep doing what you're doing.
I've doubled the miles on my MY00 AP1 as I approach my 10th year of ownership. I've been ego checked multiple times leading to crazy (lucky) saves. I've essentially learned how to drive in it, my first manual car.
Now I'm in the process of restoring her after a run-in with highway debris, catching up on maintenance, squeezing in some upgrades, and making sure I can take my kids out when they're old enough so they can fall in love just as I did when I was a bachelor.
My wife thought I was an absolute asshat. 30-something, two cars, no home, etc. Took several longer trips focused around food but she fell in love one evening as we cruised up the highway at a brisk pace catching sunset over the reservoir. A blanket of fog rolling over the mountains with warm air flowing over the cabin. Why the pretty picture? It means I won't have to sell it, ever. Get 'em emotionally attached, that's the key.
Barely broken in at 145k miles. Now to get a lift in my garage to add another toy.
Thanks Dez for your hard work on this one. The more cars I drive, the further I fall in love with the S2k.
Best choice of cars for a video, not even Chris Harris would do affordable sports cars now. It's glad to see someone still seeing these cars as special ones. Thanks for the effort and keep it up guys.
These are absolute bangers all of them. Thank you so much for this unique perspective of these absolute beasts.
P.S. my god that S2000 engine sound bit is what I think god sounds like.
Wow. This incredible detail. This is the kind of car content I need in my life!
I own an ND2 RF... love it. Your review makes me want to drive the other two just to feel the difference. I’m sure my choice a year and a half ago would still stand, but your ability to fairly review these cars still peaks my interest! Thanks
Gimme the S2000 any day ❤️
The biggest advantage: the other cars will depreciate 4k a year, whereas the S2000 will pay you.
Well, sure. It's practically an exotic in this crowd. You could sell it and buy decent used copies of both the others.
@@taylorc2542 the S2000 is the cheapest car I've ever owned. Worth more than when I bought it 8 years ago.
@KC lol when im on a motercycle I think the opposite, like this motorcycle sounds like a car.
thats the issue, no one will give you one... they sell for as much as a new MX5 of the year full equiped and it will have 100k miles on it / a hole in the driver seat
3 great cars. I did my research which included hours of SG reviews on all 3. I bought my '19 MX5 RF Club this year as my weekend/back road attack weapon and I could not be happier. I Love this car. It's not perfect, but it's as close as you can get for the price. I love the bespoke chassis and suspension. It was designed for the street. If you want to turn it into a track car you can. You do need to be careful, even on the road though as mentioned the weight transfer will let that ass come around. SG should get a commission from Mazda for my purchase :) LOVE this car. It's my 3rd car and I don't track it so it's exactly what I want.
I really liked this comparison, the one thing I missed was you two talking about how difficult and costly it is to correct the deficiencies of the cars. Something like „You can easily correct the rev happiness of the 86 with headers and a good tune but you cannot correct the steering feel of the S2000...“ and so on. Maybe you could do a segment like this. I know this was a stock to stock comparisons but I guess most viewers of this channel would consider at least lightly modifying their car. And then it‘s interesting to know which one of these is the best platform to build upon in terms of eliminating their weaknesses.
Just saw a clean, tastfully modded S2000 with beefy tires today just like Mark's... they still look amazing today
I don't watch any other car channel on youtube anymore since I've found this one.....it's just perfect for me, keep doing what you do
Love the chemistry and back and forth between you two. Thanks for the amazing reviews!
Name another channel producing basically short films on modern/semi modern cars with this much detail and in-depth comparison.
p.s.
Mr Goose/Singapore I am very thankful you go through all the effort to make a 40 minute video on something like this. This is a very special channel
Been anxiously awaiting this video. A++ as usual guys. I’m partial to my nd2 but I love all these cars
its crazy how the s2000 still has a perfectly modern design even next to these cars, i am 100% serious saying that they could bring it back with the exterior design completely unchanged now
I've been saying that pretty much since it was created, the design is so timeless and modern, so simple, and the lights look like from later era, not 2000
No one knows why they just don't do it man. It doesn't need to be anything more than what it was
Crash regulations have come such a long ways since those days that, even for that reason alone, they'd have to modify the design significantly to sell it as a new car today.
The s2000 was on my list but it’s power band is pretty high up there. I went with the Alfa Romeo 4C instead and it’s a blast to drive.
but... but.... 9k RPM... No, no. I can understand you, i bought mine now a couple months back. The feeling the S2k gives you while driving is just not comparable to anything, and i drove alot of cars, even for my somewhat young age.
@@exkenny432 Yeah, I own an s2000 and even compared to things like new 911s, nothing has been more fun than the s2000 except the lotus elise
@@redline9221 do you feel all banged up and in pain after a long drive in the lotus compared the the s2k?
@@1HeatWalk Maybe some people would, but I have a pretty high tolerance for uncomfortable cars. The bigger issue is the single tub body and the car being extremely low makes every speed bump, curb, incline incredibly stressful
I had an s2k the 4c is my favorite choice to replace it with or possibly a fiat 124 , 4c seems a timeless classic design.
The amount of work you guys put into the videos is incredible and you guys deserve all the recognition and praise
Savage geese is best channel.
best bro
Yes Sir 🔥🔥🔥
Demuro has entered chat.
@@PianoBlackTrimRep. Demuro lacks the character and technical knowledge Savagegeese provides.
@@danielweiskittel3472 True, but to give Doug D credit, he has never pretended to be any kind of technical expert, just a guy who likes cars.
'Who will lose?' 'Crowning the queen'
😄 love your sense of humor
Gear ratios are close enough that you are never out of VTEC on the track or when driving hard. It runs 4000 RPM at 75 MPH, but you've always got a gear ratio where the car will be on the cam.
Mark is so knowledgeable about cars. I love it. It is why I watch these videos. I learn so much about cars I
Love Savage Geese video's. The 2016 ND Miata review was a reason for Buying my current daily driver a 2016 MX-5 Club soft top with the Brembo / BBS package. So that 2016 ND review said you can't daily drive an ND in a cold climate. I've done it with buying a winter tire / wheel package from the TireRack ! I'm single BTW. I think the MX-5 is an under rated winter car as it perfect balance really shows in the bad weather. After watching this video I'm going to have to visit this track next spring not too far away from me.
THANK YOU for acknowledging the practicality of the 86 over the other 2. Only took 7 years for a major reviewer to notice...
Because sports cars are not practical. Its like talking about its off road abilities.
@@easton.88 It actually does matter if someone can only afford to own one car. Having decent MPG and more cargo space goes a long way.
@@KTH96 Yeah, good point.
Those rear seats are a cruel joke though. If I buy one they're coming straight out.
Such a well thought out and thorough comparison. You guys just keep hitting it out of the park!
Brilliant. I had both an AP1 and AP2 a while back. Cars I wish I never sold ("Spa Yellow", like yours). It is a shame most for sale have been molested by their previous owners. Great and relevant comparison. Keep 'em coming, Mark.
You're literally the only one I turn off my adblocker for...thanks for the great content.
Can’t wait for the 2022 BRZ review...love my BRZ for daily versatility
We're so lucky to be graced by another 40 min vid from the chai latte wrangler himself.
I owned an AP2 and now an ND2. Both are awesome cars in their own way. Outside of driving preferences I think the S2000 has the exclusivity due to it being out of production, many were wrecked/rice out, and it has aged well.
Only wished I would have purchased a nicer AP2 since they will appreciate in value.
I love my ND1 and it puts a smile on my face every time I get it out on the road. I agree that it is not the best car as a daily driver and mine is used on the weekends as my second car. I really wish Honda would put out a reasonably priced modern S2000 or variant, as that would definitely be a car I would move to from my Mazda. Mark, thanks again for the great presentation of all three.
Fantastic video. After months and years of searching I just purchased an amazing condition low mileage 2007 Laguna Pearl Blue S2000. 😀
Such great automotive content! How can you still only have 400k subscribers?! I’ve been a subscriber since ~100k, and you’ve always had such a high level of production, quality content and honest reviews. Don’t ever change, Mark! 👍
I sold my s2000 for an nd2. Nd2 is more fun on the street. But boy do I miss the vtec howl. Don't regret getting the nd2 though.
swap a f20c into your miata!
@@lepton31415 You could always just downshift to get power. I believe they put a gear stick in the car for a reason
@@lepton31415 You dont need to get anywhere near redline to daily drive. I keep it under 3k no problem. Not sure your point
at least you didnt sell your ap2 for a subaru forester :/
It’s so impressive that a 20 year old Honda is borderline better than two 5 year old cars.
It was way more expensive back in it's day. Inflation...
S2000 is just special.. They don't make em like that no more..
S2000 was way more expensive than these two cars in its time.
@@CB-sr5jp In my country right now, the price of an S2000 equal to 2 BRZs..
The S2000 is a compromise car - half the gas mileage, spine compressing ride quality, and crash ratings that are no where near a modern car. Ask me how I know, I own an AP1 and an ND1.
I'm actually looking to get an MX5 ND2 (probably 2024 new) and for myself coming from old jeeps, a 2005 base Toyota Matrix (keeping as a daily driver) I want all the new features of the ND2, but love that it has not gone extreme with tech in it. It feels like a really nice balance for a car these days. It can perform very well on the street but also be taken right to a track.
I found it interesting that they say the ND2 is better on the street, I was shocked how well it drove when I test drove one and took it to my local streets that are very rough. My GF and I were expecting a rough ride and it rode better then our daily cars. I know this doesn't help on the track but for the vast majority of people this is a huge plus and makes a lot of sense. The people who want to tighten up the suspension can do it quite easily and get the exact car they want.
S2000 will always be an amazing car, but I see the ND2 being very popular in the future as cars get more and more tech, and more towards electric/hybrid. Hell there are a lot of rumors that the ND2 may be the last non-electric model based on the way the world is going. I don't see that you can go wrong with the ND2. That being said the S2000 has to be one of the best looking cars ever made. It just feels right. Locally S2000's, if you can find them, are pushing pretty close to the cost of a used ND1 or ND2, and it isn't much more for a brand new ND2.
So true. I have a 2013 BRZ. And it puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. But you are right. Those 215 suck for performance. I’m running 245 now with a FortuneAuto coilovers. This car came alive with this setup.
Videos like these are why this channel is among the best on RUclips for car reviews. What's also appreciated by viewers like me, is the level of objective analysis, and bringing in 2 different points of view to debate, when you and Jack discuss the objective points about every car you review. Keep it up Mark!
I’ve run car dealerships my whole life, driven everything. The MIATA is the best car by miles, I know it needs a few tweaks to the suspension, so add $2k for suspension and sways. Then the car is nearly flawless. The S2k has some real flaws, strange door height, power band issues, raspy motor, goofy dash, and weak brakes; still a fun car. I’ve owned both gens (Honda) and all 4 gens of Miatas. Everyone that drives my slightly modified Miata’s gets out and says “holy crap, most fun car I’ve ever driven’, duh. The BRZ twins, not even close. The other thing to remember is that an S2k would be $45k today, which makes the 30k Miata that much more amazing. So go buy a Club, put springs and sways on it or go Ohlin coilovers and be amazed. Plus, the car is probably the most reliable car built in the industry, followed by 4-runners and Tacoma’s. And for reference, I currently run a high end German Brand.
You guys are so cute bonding under an s2000.
A true car bromance
Great video❗️ I had a 2015 FR-S for 4 years then traded it in for a 2019 Miata. I do agree the 86 has better steering less body roll but as my every day driver I’m enjoying the smoother ride of the Miata. Not slowing down so much for every speed bump rough road or parking lot entrance. Plus it’s my first convertible and living In Arizona tops almost always down, really enjoying that part of it! Not everyone needs a back seat, not an issue for me and not everyone tracks their car. I also like the fact that you can rev the Miatas engine to redline without sounding like your killing it.
I do miss a few things about the FR-S . The seating position and layout was absolutely perfect, most comfortable I’ve ever been in a car. Miatas close but the steering wheel still needs more adjustability. Plus a flat 4’s exhaust note when you add a UEL header and the right exhaust is like no other.
2003 S2000 was the only one i had the greatest of pleasure to drive. It was a pocket-rocket, very balanced, suspension just right, not to tight, not too loose, and that car is amazing on long sweeping curves. The perfect roadster for me.
ok.. this is a fair review! I agree on what have been said.. nd2 is the answer in all terms.
The 2022 Brz looks stunning! It's going to be great with the 2.4L NA boxer.
Nah that shit ugly
I agree, I think putting that engine in would help that platform tremendously. It may not sound like a big jump in power but considering how light that car is to begin with, it’ll certainly help.
@@budzilla6168 its actually for me quite a step forward in terms of styling. The new one is just more of a grown up looking car and less of a parts bin type of style.
wouldnt it be nose heavy?
@Bucky Fiden as I own one as a back up beater, confirm. If it ain’t leaking and knocking it’s not a Subaru engine.
Just discovering these videos. Thanks for all of the time and effort placed into the creation of this.
Tripped over one video when looking into the LFA carbon weaving loom, and here I am 4 hours later.
As someone actually trying to figure out which sportscar to buy this video is utterly invaluable. I've test driven two of these three in the last week and can absolutely agree with your resulting opinions, albeit I am still trying to find an affordable S2K.
You and your team legitimately have a better process, and thereby a better end product than any of the corporates in car media. True enthusiasts that remain unbiased is something the media consumer simply hasn't had access to until now, and it almost hurts remembering all my years of magazine subscriptions and dvd purchases and blah blah...
Thank you for your great work, if I could sub twice I definitely would.
Complaining about Miata body roll on stock shocks while comparing it to an S2000 with Ohlins...
Yeah I noticed that too...... 🤨🤨🤨
S2k has very little body roll on stock coilovers, and Ohlins have more roll than other aftermarket coilovers I've tried
… And then saying that the 86 suspension was not good enough when all it takes is camber plates to conjure up a decent track alignment.
I'm so frustrated every time I see a video review writing off the ND because of its body roll. Sure, that's a choice by Mazda , but a set of Flyin Miata springs and Konis instantly changes the car to the great streetable/trackable balance Mark praises the S2k for. What's easier, changing a set of springs or fixing the Honda's steering feel?
While Mark does give the slightest passing nod to this fact, and I get that it's "fair" to only compare bone stock cars, it starts to feel like an excuse for S2k faithful to not admit that it's finally been matched (and maybe surpassed) by another car.
S2000 is much stiffer on standard suspension than the ND...
S2k - the only sports car I've owned (out of quite a few, from cheap to pricey) that I confirm every week I am not going to sell but drive to the ground...
It's sad Honda don't make fully-developed hardcore cars anymore.
The NSX?
@@Swedester Not even half the sports car the S2000 was. Sucks in every single track test. Just something to show off in Dubai or on the Las Vegas strip.
@@Bleifuss88 its barely faster than the nsx type r that was released almost 20 years ago with double the horsepower.
Honda’s 305hp civic R is quite the animal, no???
@@dobermanpac1064 I love the Civic R but sports cars are rwd.
You guys are Real driver’s reviewers. Love watching and listening every videos you make. Keep up the best work you two.
A base 981 manual cayman is also a great alternative to these cars. Still a bit out of the price segment of these amazing cars, but still reachable IMHO. I daily drive my 981, rain or snow, and it has never left me down. Best balanced, last of the NA flat-6, most rewarding shifter, no steering feel (electric steering), but incredibly direct, and so light (2880lbs) for a modern car. Try to get a 2014 for the lowest price. And it will appreciate if kept well and kept stock. So in many ways, similar to the AP2 but better aero.
Great review as always! 👍🏻
I am 5'4 weighing 178 pounds. I own a 2005 Honda s2000 AP2. I got the chance to drive my friends ND2 club with only 100 miles on it yesterday. I didn't get to rev the ND2 on my drive since the engine still needs to be broken in.
Here are the takeaways from my experience:
The ND2 interior fits me like a glove for my short stature while the s2000 is bigger and feels more lose for me. The Recaro seats does a better job keeping me in my seat compared to my stock s2k seats. Having an updated radio with LED screen that has an apple/android car play is a big plus!
The ND2 feels way lighter. It is 500 pounds lighter compared to the s2k. Because the car is smaller and lighter, the ND2 feels more fun/faster than the s2k going at the same speeds.
The ND2 feels more torque than the s2k so it is more fun and friendlier for city driving. My s2k feels like a civic under 6k RPM and it only gets fun in the back roads when there are no constant stop and go lights.
The clutch engagement level on the ND2 is immediate when you are a few millimeters from depressing the clutch at the bottum while the S2k clutch engagement level is really high when the clutch peddle is almost completely depressed.
The plus i have for the S2k in my opinion is the feel of the manual transmission. The s2k transmission has more weight on the shifter (the ND2 shifter feels like a hollow plastic toy), the throws between gears are shorter, the shifts feel alittle more tight and precise, and the trunk space is bigger being able to store a spare tire leaving enough room to fit in your flat tire as well (ND2 doesn't come with a spare tire; it only comes with a fix it flat). Looks are subjective, but I think the S2k exterior styling looks more simple and mature compared to the ND2.
In the end, I was blown away how well the ND2 drives and it actually made me want to get one. It is a great sports car to buy compared the S2k since they are no longer in production and the prices on used s2ks in good condition keeps going up. The ND2 is more fun as a daily driver at lower speeds for city because of having more low end torque while the s2k is more fun driving at higher speeds because VTEC doesn't come on till 6000 RPM. If you are a bigger person you might feel more comfortable in a S2k because the ND2 is way smaller and cramped in the interior, but the steering wheel on the ND2 can telescope which is helpful.