Remember to support Kson and Nazuna's VShojo Debuts this weekend! Nazuna: twitter.com/VShojoOfficial/status/1548126338535399425?s=20&t=nIjEWe07A7yD6T3oRzO1PQ Kson: www.twitch.tv/ksonsouchou
Kson quit over creative differences and feeling like her opportunities were being stifled. After a year of spinning her gears alone and getting nowhere, she's gone into a new group. Nazuna was fired for misconduct going back long before she talked to that drama channel, which was discovered when the company looked into those last events. And a certain astral creature had unexpected health problems due to an accident. The same agency has another member who only streams like 1-2 times per month it seems.
I also find it interesting that a certain shork does not really fit any of the patterns of overwork or over-investment that you highlighted here. She barely streamed at all for well over a month while doing other work and has had many weeks where she only streamed three times. She also mostly starts at about the same time and ends between 3-4 hours later including any post-stream chatting time. After two whole years she's finally thinking about making some kind of intro animation, it's all been crayons and GIFs up until now. She said she has non-work days where she does not go on the computer or smartphone at all, and supposedly does other things like cleaning stalls at an animal shelter (who knows?). She (or someone) retweets art on her channel but overall she has one of the lowest levels of social media engagement outside of her streams. It's probably because she's been through a lot under other names, but regular viewers expect her to vanish when she needs to and deal with problems by herself. You've highlighted how so many channels crumble under a load they've placed on themselves....just like in Hollywood and just like regular streaming, a huge amount of time/effort/money can go in for zero returns. And most of the time, we never even knew some little 2view ever existed. That's why the shork said if you want to be a vTuber, just begin with a PNG and whatever garbage software you can teach yourself to use. Don't punish yourself, don't stream too much, don't spend too much money, just try streaming and decide where to go afterwards. Many channels that launched and died in the last couple years were simply unprepared and overly optimistic. Same with cam streamers who break under pressure, same with youtubers who steals others' content or push themselves into debt making content, same with people who try to start a small business and be their own boss. vTubers ducking out due to fatigue or money problems are not any different from a cafe or a lawn care business failing in the first year. If anything, the losses are cheaper and the lesson learned at a younger age. And there are people like Lily who have been cam streamers for a long time, often do all-day streams, and also do voice acting or musical projects on the side. Some people are built different and they will naturally overproduce until their body forces them to stop. It's not just the vTubers. It's not just a revolving door either, some vTubers have been streaming for 4-5 years already and have not announced any plans to quit. My feeling about the better vTubers is that they do not have to be _good at everything,_ but their willingness to try new things inspired a lot of people during a period of lockdowns and disrupted lives. Some still become too engaged and overwork themselves, or move on to different careers because they want to do new things, and maybe we can be okay with that. For yourself, you can always be reborn if your avatar no longer feels like it fits you. You can always change channels, change branding or theme (maybe not as much as the Woo), or even just walk away if you find something more fulfilling. Shork has disappeared and been reborn several times in the search for her own identity, and there is nothing innately wrong with Kson's movements over the last few years. You can try to be like them, but really you should just be yourself. Don't break yourself down and try to make the pieces fit a different image. You'll be fine if you let yourself be fine.
I honestly really hate that so many female vtubers feel pressured to put on these unnaturally high pitched voices, especially if they don't know how to do it without destroying their throat. I get that it's the trend and it helps to conceal their irl persona but the harm it causes in the long run just isn't worth it.
I agree. I'm very glad it has become more acceptable for female talents to use their natural voice over time. It's still very prevalent in petite characters because that is what they are expected to sound like from anime voice acting and I don't think that will go away any time soon. You do bring up a great point that there is a way to do it without the talent hurting themselves. Agencies might want to consider voice coaches specifically for that type of voice acting so that no one is streaming or singing in their character voice in a way that would injure them!
I don't know why they just don't just get a voce changer. There is a male Vtuber in Japan that uses a voice changer to sound feminine. He's also a good actor so it comes off convincingly. If for example, they want to make Luna's voice a baby voice this can be programed into the voice changer and she just has to speak normally. I have software on my coputer that can do this kind of stuff.
well that doesn't seem to be botan's problem, she's talking about liver and stomach issues, which sounds like a drinking problem. but you're right, pekora and suisei are both suffering from "voices" they do, suisei stopped doing them and seems healthier. Pekora however is sorta tied to her "voice". The issues that Korone face are more related to depression i think, she's had a really rough run of things recently, and struggled with mental health issues, which i'm sure took a lot out of her physical health. it seems HoloEN is doing a better job of keeping it's people healthy, though ina just took a health break, and irys has had to take one as well. The rest of EN seems to stagger their schedule a bit to give them time off. Gura has proven you don't need to stream all the time to hit it big.
@@EndoftheBeginning17 i think the issue is the uncanny valley nature of voice changers turns most audiences off from a streamer. Yes, there are a couple out there that are popular in spite of their voice changer, but it’s never because of it. People crave a level of “authenticity” in their streamers (whether that’s healthy or not is a whole other issue), and voice changers read too “fake” to many fans. It’s been a criticism that’s haunted several vtubers and caused waves of speculation about who they are, more so than even their peers in the same company (for example Zentreya from vshojo). Sadly people just prefer the “natural” pitching up of voices over voice changers 😔
Entertainment was always cut throat and constant grind for relevance and dealing with metal issues, not really vtuber specific problem. Health issues is quite real and idol culture is bit of a problem on top but that's less in the west, at least not more then drama with any other female streamer that is not a vtuber.
Interesting enough, the Vtuber culture exacerbates these problems, I know vtubbing is very new, but I honestly don't see even a top shape vtubber lasting more than 10-20 years
Honestly , talent taking vacations is one of the best things for the fans , the girls get to relax and we get to "detox" from them so neither gets burnout , and the girls get stories and new ideas for new things to do on stream , example: Kiara trip to korea and all the problems she ran into , Holomyth USA meetup , Holocouncil meetup , EN fans loved when they talked about all their misadventures and little things that happen around them because we get to see a little of the real people behind the camera
Couldn't agree more! Vacations help talents both recharge and improves their zatsudan content because they have experiences to share with their audience! Kiara's trips are always so fun to hear about!
It's not "Japanese work culture" to stream all of the time. It's streamer culture. They do lose relevance and viewers when they aren't streaming. I've seen it happen before. Streamers can also become addicted to streaming.
If people are there for the Twitch emotes and the chaos, they will quickly move along to a new distraction when they get bored. Especially younger viewers with no money will flit around. When people are paid members, paid subs, have a personal investment in a character/game, or have some affinity or addiction to a given streamer's personality, they will come back when they get a channel notification. And those viewers will be the seed that drives the metrics to pull in casual viewers again. Seananners may be a good example of trying to come back from a longer hiatus. Given enough time, even a brilliant flash of light like Senzawa could find it difficult to make a comeback on her old channel.
Japanese work culture is the root, you know streamers are workers too. If they often get a day off, they can get a "lazy label" from people & which could be bad for their image. Also as you know, they have a quota per week from the company to be fulfilled & have to give some of their income to the company, let alone the pre-requisite from a platform like RUclips which counts your "active hours" to unlock the benefit.
I also think streaming needs to become more acceptable as a job, in the first part of the video it seemed many of the talents did not want to share with their doctors that they are streamers and so the reason they are having throat problems is because they are talking constantly for hours at a time.
Kiara's had the right idea for their schedule management. She once told her senior, Subaru that they shouldn't be afraid to take breaks, she understands how Subaru loves entertaining her chat/fans but that doesn't mean they need to drag themselves to the ground. I'm sure majority of their fans would not mind if they would have some down time, from time to time. A balance between work and rest, just like IRL.
I agree, Kiara seems to have a lot of wisdom when it comes to the industry. I love listening to her clips about content creation. I also love to hear about her travels when she goes on vacation. She's in South Korea right now and met Amelia's model artist Nabi!
I think Subaru's fundamental workaholic problem is that she got into Hololive as nearly a complete fluke. She had no streaming experience at all, not even how to make thumbnails for her stream. I think she got into a mindset that she has to prove herself over and above everyone else lest she do something wrong and get fired. And in the beginning she was desperate for money. She was working 3 part time jobs to make enough money as her family had just lost everything due to a house fire. She also has medical bills due to having a hole in her heart, so i assume she needed to make money for medical stuff too as she didn't want to be a burden on her parents.
The thing is, it's an important culture in Japan to be a hard worker. As for VTubers, is important to keep their image "desirable" to the audience, because they are public figures no matter what, & self-image could mean everything to them.
@@KhoiruunisaRF Doesn't mean they should though. Culture or not Kiara is still right. Especially with the progressive audiences today, they are under no obligation to follow a self-imposed guidelines their predecessors had in set for them.
I've seen so many clips from Nina Kosaka about how overworked she feels and how afraid she is of taking breaks. It's terrifying to watch happen. Even Ban Hada, who streans 3 times a week, got sick juggling that, a University degree and having to pick up a part time job just to survive, and is still on a 3 month hiatus for her health.
I agree. I hope Nina finds time to take breaks even if it is scary. Following a streaming schedule is already tough, and real life often gets in the way on top of that, making following a schedule often forcing content creators to sacrifice sleep to make it happen. It just isn't good for their health!
@@YamAlbat funny thing about taking a break is Korone needed management veto to rest because she was streaming too much and Aqua, Shion and Ayame barely stream 2 times a month. I'll be honest I feel like some people are addicted to streaming lol.
oooft, that's particularly heartbreaking for Nina Kosaka considering how much of her message to fans is to be kind to yourself :( Please rest, fox mum!
Moona once said that even making Original Music is expensive as hell. And she have to spend her money for making that. Company do help some of the burden. But if it exceeded the budget, they have to pay for themselves. You can copy paste this title and watch for yourself: Moona Talks About How Much It Costs to Make Original Songs and Covers【HoloID | Moona Hoshinova】 So yeah, they are making so many schedule, just to get pay for their project. I just hope they don't go hard on themsleves.
Thank you for adding yout insight! I've seen that clip before and it was very thought provoking, as someone who originally wanted to get into hololive for their music production side, it was a wake up call for me that the quality they strive for is very expensive! I hope that as hololive grows they are able to better support the music production that their talents want to have done so that the talents no longer have to pay out of pocket for a lot of projects!
@@YamAlbat idk about you but Cover is at the end of the day a Japanese company and a Tech company on top of that, they have the connections but not the Pockets,
@@squalleonkeneddyheart4191 Cover seems to support the talents but they do not hand out blank checks. They provide an identity and some behind-the-scenes resources, and the fans provide money and ideas/requests. Amelia is a good example from EN, the way she continued to reinvest in herself and tried to innovate in her channel content. She's not afraid to throw money at new things, and she's also able to drop unsustainable projects. Thanks to her there were extra character models, the VR collabs, even that teaser video before their debut in HoloFes.
@@YamAlbat If you have a really good idea you should still try to get it out there. A certain someone got many millions of views with a mix of Insomnia, Depression and Audacity (both actual and just the software). What's important is seeking your identity and putting out content to get real feedback. Obviously many others are also doing this, but being too hesitant is the same as just letting someone else win a marathon. At least do a little practice jogging before you worry about hiring a personal trainer.
I find it interesting that even in big big agencies some vtubers probably didn't know how successful it would have been until they really saw it. Pomu for example had a real job when she started. Rosemi also had an internship. Both likely could have decided to stick with that over a full time vtuber if they wanted
Wow I didn't know that! It's definitely hard to trust the youtube algorithm to give you your revenue, especially when you don't know how successful you'll be or how long it will last. I know several Hololive members are college students too!
@@schwarzschaz From context of these comments (I personally had no idea this was happening), it looks like they were mad she decided to spend Christmas with family instead of doing a stream. I kind of understand it for Japan. Where some people are lonely in Christmas's and some are that selfish to wish for their streamer to do kind of the same, or wish their favorite streamer to stream so they are not alone. Not sure if it was Japanese people though. Lonely people are everywhere, it is just that Latin Americans tend to understand family first, and the US are also open minded. I might be wrong though.
Excellent presentation and breakdown! Taking breaks or cancelling streams is definitely super stressful from the creator side. I would even say the bar keeps getting higher, as now we even need shorts/clips/tiktoks etc to also stay relevant. I see a growing trend from Niji of getting clippers hired for their talents' channels now. Also - Even the pressure that others are getting artwork/skebs done like "everyone else" also puts a stress on budgeting and eats into the sustainability. Or just "keeping up on trends/twitter trends" is a time eater as well, which takes away from "creation" time to stay on top of things. There's SO MUCH that we could go over on the topic, but great job starting the discussion!!
Those are aspects of VTuber culture I didn't initially think about, but now that you brought them up, I do agree with you! The pressure to have new content in all forms on all platforms is a lot to keep up with!
One perspective I've regularly thought about is that there's only so much 'content' you can do as a Vtuber compared to a regular streamer. You can't exactly vlog or show precise reactions, tours, and activities as a Vtuber as compared to a regular streamer. So, vtubers have to excel in what they CAN do which comes to the singing, dancing (3d), ASMR, gaming etc which imo creates a niche bunch of limited activities.. Since anyone can slap an avatar (even a PNG) on and technically call themselves a Vtuber and stray away from almost all social norms and potential hurt that may avail by them showing their face, and with the growing popularity. Aand since limited activities + oversaturation of Vtubers.. The potential number of Vtubers out there as compared to regular streamers is gonna slowly collide and sooner, more 'hybrids' will appear - rpr, CookieSwirlC etc.. Point is, I feel like the potential for a 'pure' Vtuber trying to excel in this industry would be immensely tough firstly due to the oversaturation of talents, available content, fanbase and yeah. This brings about immense stress and since you're behind an avatar. Viewers are not able to accurately spot signs or points where it hurts. Just my 3 cents.. That's also why I love Vtuber communities. The bonds that people create are really wholesome and it really is fresh
Thank you for giving your 3 cents! With the limitations of VTubers comes the enginuity of the community to make certain things possible. Take Ironmouse's tour of Japan, she had a friend walk around Japan for her live, making it almost like a vlog! Mixed reality streamers like Oni Giri and Kson also broaden the possibilities of where we can see virtual avatars used in internet content. That being said, the VTuber community is very tight knit and participating in traditions and trends is very common, leading to oversaturation of a lot of aspects of it. The best thing to do is for a creator to determine what traditions and trends make sense for their brand, but find their own unique content to branch off into, thus toeing the line of being a VTuber while also bringing fresh content to the scene!
Being fair, there are plenty of Twitter feuds and backbiting/petty infighting. Especially among the Indie 2views desperate to find a spotlight. I like what the shork said: Just stream. Just start streaming. Don't waste a bunch of time on prep, when first starting out you need to just do it so you can find out who you are.
@@akira8393 Without naming names, this has been a really big issue with people who start on Twitter before they are ready to begin streaming. Sometimes they burn themselves out or bankrupt themselves with unneeded prep and advertising, I've even seen video ads on YT for new channels. Almost worse, sometimes they establish this persona through tweets that they cannot actually match up to during live streams. vTubing is a character persona, but often so is cam streaming. You gotta know how you act in front of an audience, build on your actual performance. Your concerns about the tech are very valid. People worry about quality assets, meanwhile there's this EN hammerhead with buggy eye tracking and loading screens in crayon. Money problems aside, streaming related health problems can arise because parasocial goes both ways. They give too much of themselves to their supporters.
It's sad whenever a vtuber has to take a break and they feel the need to apologize a bunch and sometimes still try to squeeze a stream in during their time off or smth like that :(
@6:54 I'm worried about Calli as well. She's constantly putting out music on top of her streaming. I remember her saying she doesn't get much sleep because she's so busy. I know there's going to be a point where she announces she has to take a long leave because she's been working herself to hard. It's hard to talk about this on social media because fans will be like "she said she's fine and not to worry so stop spreading fear!" Of course they're going to say there fine and not to worry.
Calli is very much a workaholic. I admire her as a content creator but I too hope that she can learn from her friend takanashi kiara and take some time to see the world. I remember recently seeing that Calli flew to japan, recorded 4 songs, and immediately left Japan instead of sight seeing. I hope she finds merit in "smelling the roses" as she continues on her content creation journey!
Calli is an unusual situation, because she is still active as her old persona, even performing and recording music, in addition to everything she does as Calli. She basically lives two lives.
@@DarthABBA And what makes it extra weird is that she's signed to her record label not as her IRL self, but specifically as the Hololive-owned creation "Mori Calliope". She's at least been able to get some game industry work as herself, and she'll always have a place on the convention circuit...so at least she'll be fine whenever she decides she's done being Mori.
aaaaaand this is exactly why I'm determined to stream for myself and no one else, and have it stated all over my streaming-associated accounts. I'm not trying to make it my job, I'm not trying to make any money from it, I don't want to _be_ a "content creator," I simply enjoy the act of streaming as a vtuber in and of itself. no schedule, no plans, no effort other than what is fueled by my own interest and excitement.
honestly if their full time job is vtubing, streaming 2-3 hours a day or every other day is actually very sustainable people just gotta take better care of themselves physically at least the mental stress is another story.
I agree with that statement. I too used to stream 2 hours every week day during the pandemic when I was unemployed. The challenge comes when you take into account that VTuber content at the agency level is a lot more than just streaming. I listed all the other duties outside of streaming that an agency VTuber may have. Not to mention that if you're not earning enough from streaming, you'll be working part time or full time to cover your living expenses. Add the fact that school is a factor for many talents and you've got yourself a recipe for losing sleep and never taking breaks.
@@YamAlbat oo thanks for the follow up i was worried what i said was a bit of a hot take and would get people mad, but your right if they have school and or work as well that would be way too much stuff on their plate also i think all the youtube management with thumbnails and artwork coould just be done by the company if they wanted them too mm idk. Thanks!
There’s a lot a streamer needs to do offline aside from streaming though like preparing content/streams, networking, for smaller vtubers this could be making videos/clips of their own streams etc. some are artists beside Vtubing and all of those things can become overwhelming quickly
Great video. I think you hit the nail on the head when referring to Japanese work culture- but I'd say it's more in line with idol/celebrity culture than corporate work structure. In idol culture, all the talents know they have a very limited time in the spotlight- most debut in their early teens and retire in their early twenties, if they are successful. So they work their butts off doing albums, concerts, appearances, selling merch etc... to get the most out of their time in the spotlight. The anime movie "Perfect Blue" highlights this a little bit in an overly dramatic way. Some of it does come from the idol management companies but the performers drive themselves too, it's not all the companies fault. Ironically, vtubing has given a way for some current and former idols to continue their career after the time they'd normally expect to leave entertainment and get "real" jobs. I think (Japanese) vtubing is so new and so driven by idol culture the talents feel that same need to do as much as they can while they can- that might change as the genre grows and develops its own identity, but for now that Japanese standard of working on as much content as possible is driving the majority of the industry at the moment.
Great insight! I am not very well versed in the nuances of idol culture myself, VTuber spaces are the first time I've really heard it discussed. I really appreciate you taking the time to give me some more background on the topic. I can totally see how VTuber culture aligns with that mentality!
FYI, Idols/celebrity counts as workers too. It's an overall Japanese people's work culture, especially if you take the agencies into consideration because an agency also works in a general corporate business model.
@@KhoiruunisaRF it will be interesting to see how the VTuber work environment changes. We are still essentially in the first generation of vtubers, by generate I mean as in cultural generation, usually divided up by decade. The idea of vtubing and streaming in general is still pretty new. We are watching the growth of a whole new industry, one where interactivity between the performers and the audience is encouraged and monetized. Just look at how much the film industry has changed just the last 20 years. It makes it difficult to predict how vtubing will change going forward, especially since it's an industry with a relatively low cost to break into and compete in.
Really liked the video. The examples you showed make sense and the solutions could work for lots of cases. But i think it implies some problems are caused by agencies or the VTuber culture, when there's another more plausible explanation. Every streamer fears not having an audience when they take a break, not just VTubers. All big streamers do tons of work outside the stream, XqC might not be making his own album on the side but he's busy doing sponsored stuff, setting up events and other things outside the stream. All big streamers get like that. All the big 3 agencies you mention have examples that contradict the part about over demanding schedules like Ayame for Holo, Gilzaren for Niji and Hime for VShojo. I think it's easy to think everything is a VTuber problem when you're looking at streaming from a VTuber perspective, but sometimes it's just a streaming problem.
Thank you for the feedback! I do come from a VTuber-only background. This comment shows a bit of my bias, seeing that I don't watch many non-VTuber streamers. I appreciate the perspective 🧡
I mean for Hololive, we have the EN side where a good chunk of their members only stream for 4-6 times a week (as low as 3 times in some instances), in contrast to the JP side where the ones like Pekora stream everyday, and sometimes in very long stretches. Hell, Kiara has been outspoken trying to get the JP members to slow down and take vacation breaks, and now that some of the JP talents have needed to take breaks due to vocal issues caused by extensive streaming schedules they're starting to see the EN branch wisdom of pacing themselves. And as mentioned by Guilguis, we have talents like Ayame who don't really stream very often, sometimes disappearing for weeks at a time. Of course, Hololive is busy in ways that don't involve streaming, since we know they also work on stuff like promotions, recording, voice acting, personal projects, the occasional dance lessons for upcoming events, etc. So it's demanding, but not in the "you need to stream everyday!" kind of demanding (Cover Corp's audition conditions explicitly state that the minimum needed for streaming is 3 times a week, and we've seen talents go AWOL for longer), since as the talents themselves have pointed out that drive is more out of them not wanting to see their numbers drop and their audiences leave.
Yeah is more of a streaming problem than just a vtuber problem but mix this with japanese work culture and you May had a serious problem for for example fubuki and korone from hololive are one of the most constant vtubers and also stream for long periods of time, they were asked by management to take a rest because if they continue like that it could be bad for their health. At least in the EN side people are more concious about the how significant could be taking a rest but japan is far away from that but it seems is changing maybe not as fast as we wanted but changing
I'd dare to say that even as a fan this hobby is unsustainable XD At least I see it that way because I love these vtubers and i want to be there when they stream and support them but they're so many and streaming for so long that you can't catch up with them. You can even have the burnout if you dont control it. I think it would be better and healthier for ALL of us both the vtubers and their audiences if they just slow down a bit and take constant rests.
I just started binge watching vtubers and upon looking at their schedules I was already surprised that they even stream till the weekends. Thats tiring not just to your vocals but also to your body and mind.
As someone who used to stream 3-4 days a week I totally agree. Some talents even plan more than 7 streams a week. Elira Pendora and Laplus Darkness are two that come to mind, but I'm sure there are others who tend to book their schedule this packed.
@@YamAlbat Yeah... I feel bad that they have to stream that much every single day. Streamers tend to neglect themselves for the sake of what they are doing. I mean its a job but they should be a little disciplined too in terms of taking care of themselves. Note: Mysta is sick rn too 😭 plus seeing this video that a lot of other vtubers are the same... Men... Its like digging your own grave.
I think this is a similar problem when the topic of "Crunch" was being talked about in video game development, or when a similar conversation was happening with the anime industry, or almost any other industry for that matter. There is always the issue of management poorly managing their employees/talent's working hours of course, but one issue I don't remember coming up as a topic, when discussing the issue of Crunch, is, what happens if, your boss doesn't make anyone work overtime and/or manages the workload so that such overtime isn't needed, but, you have a coworker, or in the case of Vtuber agencies, other talents, that are both willing, and do put in the overtime anyway. I think most people would agree, it would be wrong if both management and/or the fan base, didn't reward the one who put in the extra hours, be it, higher pay or a bigger growth, but when that happens, the standard is now upped, and the other workers and talents, who also want to get the same thing as the other worker, to then put in extra hours, which will then continue the cycle, until the level of work becomes unsustainable, and leads to burnout and fatigue. I think in the Vtuber community, this could be more the case because each Vtuber, whether they are indie or work for an agency, are in a sense, competing with every other Vtuber in existence. I don't really know how to solve this issue, but I think it is something that at least should be discussed.
This sure hits home with how much of holoEN has had to take a break or adopt a lighter streaming schedule in recent months. Kiara's the most consistent streamer in the branch atm and even she said she'll take a month-long break next year... And of course THOSE parts of the fandom hate them for it and are constantly calling them lazy. i think part of that issue is a point i don't see brought up much: about the only people who have the time to regularly watch even just 1 or 2 active agency vtubers' streams are kids and NEETs, and vtubing in general has made a major pivot from the short-form videos of the peak Kizuna Ai days to streaming as its dominant content model. This means you're going to primarily cater to exactly the sort of entitled audiences most prone to causing online drama, when your job forces you to be Extremely Online as well and thus makes it harder to avoid that mess. We've seen with cases like Mori how online hate can genuinely affect a creator, and that's just the ones who let themselves show it publicly! Part of why things went in this direction, of course, is that you can get a lot of money out of a few people with nothing else going on in their lives, and that's not just a streaming phenomenon; think of how the latest console generation has upped their prices to the point where the average person might as well just get an acceptable PC instead. There's a notion that with the internet creating so much competition for entertainment, you can't grow your audience too much so it's better to focus on maximizing profits from the hardcore audience you *do* have. That's a whole other conversation in itself, of course, but i think that's at play with at least some of this overworking...
This analysis is amazing… have you considered making video essays yourself? You’d be good at it! You’ve honestly opened my mind to how it would be to have a job completely reliant on keeping strangers on the internet happy with you. Really gave me some food for thought!
As someone who's attempting to break into streaming as a VTuber, I understand the pain. I currently work a full time job and I often have to cancel or delay streams and get behind on social media, editing, ect due to exhaustion. I can only afford to do so because I have another income: even if it's the core problem. However my approach to VTubing seems to be quite different than the typical VTuber: I'm aiming for more of a RUclipsr style of content. I'm not attempting a high voice, or trying to play a character; I am playing up my personality but I'm not feeling forced to do anything but "have energy". I'm also not portraying myself as a cute anime girl with no real person behind her: I am me, my VTuber is me, and I am my VTuber. And honestly, I think that agencies aren't that great. It seems to me that you're paying them consistent residuals for a mere start up cost: which is, if you think about it, not a good deal. You do not need a fancy, thousand dollar model to START. And if you're still expected to hire editors, plan content, and manage social media, then wouldn't it be better to just... Hire someone to do those for you ince you're big enough? You'd be losing similar amounts of money, but have to do less work.
Thank you Tomoya for taking the time to watch my video! I'm a fan of your content, especially your music! Wishing you and the rest of TsunDream all the best 🧡💫
A good topic to raise and thank you kindly for making this video. This is a topic that I've been discussing and thinking about a lot over the past year or so, so I have a bit of stuff to say, so apologies in advance. I think the combination of the algorithm rewarding quantity, as well as the at times both rational and irrational fear of losing audience when taking a break, the Japanese work culture given that Vtubing started its rise in Japan, the overall that high of not wanting to stop because work is fun and thus not having enough work life balance, as well as the precedent set by forerunners on what the 'formula for success' is. One thing is that Vtubing is now settling into the problems that have plagued many parts of the online entertainment industry (be it RUclipsrs or streamers) for years. Ever since 2020 (arguably before but definitely as COVID set in), Vtuber society and culture has experienced a rising surge but that means that at some point, you get oversaturation, you get high bars to reach and you get a lot of the stuff that many RUclipsrs have talked about regarding how entertainment as a job is unforgiving. Vtubers have it more visible and in different forms I think, but burnout and inability to rest and all that are things that have plagued online entertainers for at this point at least a decade. There's definitely a lot of things behind the scenes, whether projects or whether preparations for streams. But I think the important thing is that just because work is fun, doesn't mean you don't need to rest. I've seen that in big Vtubers and even indies that I follow (and routinely nag at to rest properly). Vtubers are often normal people who get into it and not professionals trained to identify things like rest and other aspects that would affect their work. Not saying that Vtubers should be trained or anything but I find that creative folk in general (not all but there's a good majority) have a hard time setting limits on work and life. It doesn't help that because of the precedents set, fans also consciously or unconsciously have that expectation of Vtubers as well. I don't think I know that many streamers that haven't already made that their full time job who stream as often as the average Vtuber to be honest (I don't watch a lot of streamers but even then I know that 3 times a week is already quite a bit if someone isn't doing it as a full time job). As for Japanese work culture, I don't think that's as much the root as just Japanese or even Asian culture in general, where children are fed the notion from young that they always have to strive for better. For some, it's in tune with their personalities already and for others it's just something they've come to accept as the norm. So as adults, you have a whole cluster of individuals whose idea of success is hustle hustle hustle. Don't stop until you drop. We hear a lot about Japanese work culture but really it's not just the work and it's not just Japan. There's a larger scale issue of how society as a whole, even outside Asian culture, tends to focus on productivity 24/7. At the end of the day, expectations and how to communicate those expectations are possibly the most important thing in a scenario like this. It is definitely on fans to call out toxic behavior and also to be aware of behaviors that may stem from goodwill but may not impart goodwill. However, it is also on a content creator to communicate proper expectations to their fans. If you go into content creation thinking you'll never need to manage an audience, then that's naivete. How things are communicated is very important. The saying 'the fanbase reflects the Vtuber' has some truth in the sense that what you say or don't say influences what audiences may or may not do, even if different content/personalities attract different groups of people. And if you think that just because work is fun you don't need to rest, that's irresponsible to yourself and to your viewers. Unless they are toxic, a lot of viewers would rather their talent take a bit of rest than keep on pushing till they break. It's optimistic to say that 'oh if people leave, you're just filtering out the toxicity'. That's not entirely true but it does mean that those left will be the most loyal. The fear of losing audience (and income let's be real) is not unwarranted nor can it be just waved away as some might like to just by saying "oh you don't have to feel that way". The unfortunate reality is that a lot of content creators do feel that way and saying that their emotions aren't needed doesn't help. BUT at the same time, it is true that content creators also need to make a decision for themselves on the path to take. If you want to make this a job or achieve bigger projects etc, you're going to have to cater to the algorithm to some level at least until you get a sizeable enough audience. If you want to do it for leisure, then be okay with taking breaks as well. I know a lot of small business owners and I've seen them work day in night out when first setting up the business. Honestly entertainment especially as an indie is a business venture. That's the reality of things and it's something GirlDM has mentioned as well. You need to be able to understand both what's needed but also where your limits are, otherwise you either don't get far enough or you crash and burn. tl;dr: Vtubers and the community need to set and have reasonable expectations; Work is work, whether or not it's fun and breaks should be taken; Hustle culture is ingrained in modern society, we need to stop buying into the productivity fable without second thought; know your limits, you're not superhuman.
i can't imagine how difficult it must be for talents to find a work-life balance that they're comfortable with while also trying to maintain growth momentum. it's also hard as a fan trying to find the healthy middleground between encouraging talents to rest without coming across as pushy or babying or being a worrywart. but i will say that it's always so heartwarming seeing a liver ask their fanbase if they would be okay with a break or a rest and seeing overwhelming support and tons of messages saying that the fans will wait patiently for their return, and an outpouring of fan art during their time off. i know the vocal minority that demands a constant grind from their oshis can be deafening, but the fact that the majority of fans are happy to wait so that the living breathing human being behind the model can be healthy is reassuring. ;w;
Agreed. As a korone fan I always want to ask her to consider stopping at the 8 hour mark for streams, but I know that those comments annoy her, so I do not send them. I'm glad she's been deciding to take more breaks for herself though!
@@YamAlbat yeah, i feel that. i think my oshi really overworked himself trying to reach 100k and it was pretty hard seeing how exhausted he was getting around that time, but sometimes rooting for someone is the only thing you can do, even when you're really worried about them. that's why ganba is my go-to word lmfao (also thankfully he took a well-deserved vacation after he reached his 100k goal and now he seems a lot more relaxed and is willing to take time off when he's sick instead of trying to stream through it. i guess lots of livers are kind of stubborn in that way hahaha)
I've been the stubborn liver myself so I understand. I'm sure the stubbornness only gets easier to fall into when you have a big audience to stream to.
This is so true, I thought about it and after the limelight of being a Vtuber I started to think of the various downsides and realized that I wasn’t something I wanted to do. After all the scheduling and sleepless nights I would have faced it would have really wrecked me physically and mentally, my heart goes out to all of you Vtubers who continue doing what you do, but PLEASE, be taking care of yourself there isn’t enough money in this world that should overvalue your personal health, I know it’s not that easy and maybe finances are a priority but Please, don’t be so on fire that you burn yourself out, we love all of your streams and content but if you’re so sick that it hurts to stream we’d rather you take a break and step back for a bit. We Love You All and we’re always looking forward to your content, Love you guys long time and stay doing what you guys do. 😄❤️
Dude...it didn't even cross my mind that faking your voice for hours at a time everyday would damage your throat badly??? I did not realize how much work it takes... Ty for this video
Her "old voice" was a made with voice software, she used it because she was afraid of doxxing, so health problems with her voice wasn't really a concern as far as I know
there should be a dedicated team to support each talents so during preparation, talents can take a rest while the team works for the preparation. talents can add feedback since theyre going to be the one putting the idea in front of audiences but in the end, its about putting less burden on the talents
Honestly one of the biggest takeaways I've gathered at least from watching hololive and Nijisanji vtubers is just how much of a toll it takes on them. Sure, they make perhaps lifelong friends and have some once in a lifetime experiences but they often end up having to deal with health problems or mental stress that causes them to take a hiatus for it. I see many tweets of how tired they are, or their sleep schedule is messed up due to travel, collabs etc.
From a viewer's perspective, I want vtubers to stream less for my sake. Fewer, shorter, more unique videos and streams is what I'd prefer to see across the board. It's way too much to sift through otherwise.
Agreed. I rely on taggers, clippers, and news channels to keep up with the VTubers I want to watch Otherwise it's too much even to just keep up with one let alone a handful!
@@YamAlbat I use clips to choose which vods to watch as timezones are not my friend and I'm subbed to many. Most go live in the really early am for me. I have now mastered play syncing 2 vods so I can see 2 perspectives.
Agreed a lot of people forget creators people to. I make it a point to remember their human and I worry about the creators I follow and want them to take breaks
I typically stay away from news-type/drama channels, but I believe this is a worthwhile topic. I'm sure this must've been in the works for possibly months. I'm not sure how to convey how big this video is; just know I see you, good job. 13:42 the ending esspecially. Just like an actual research/argumentative paper stating how you/relevant people can make a change.
Ahh thank you so much! This was actually my first video essay and I had no clue what I was doing. It took around a month to make from start to finish. I am still honing my skills in the genre, but I am thankful that RUclips deemed my content worthy of their algorithm so early into my career. Thank you for your kind words and for supporting my content with your comment!
I've never actively followed a Vtuber, since where I come from watching a Vtuber/streamer is see either weird or just like simping for a moving model on the screen (like many players do nowadays on gacha games or fighting games), but when I first discodered this type of content creator I was interested in the idea of having your own digital avatar to use for videos or streaming. I already tried creating my own model and still strugling with that, since I'm not able to draw and I lack of 3d modeling skills (basically I'm using a free software to do so an tryng to edit some textures to make my avatar unique and not so "flat") and seeing this video shows me that the way I intended practicing this thing as a hobby wasn't so bad at all: creating something on my own and having my own schedule may be the right way to have an audience, which could be of less than a hundred viewers or more (I don't care about the numbers honestly, I only need people who shares my interests to be part of a live show). It's very interesting to know that many other talents struggle by their own or because of their contract: since that shows how to behave as a content creator (take your time, but don't leave people wait too long; use your skill to be attractive, but don't overuse them otherwise you could get hurt). I'll stick to my plan of just stream when I can, what I want and the way I want and if people don't like my roleplay, I'm not gonna bother that much because that means that I'm not the guy. PS: btw I'm making a male model, since I'm honest, I wanna show an alter ego, instead of acting like an e-girl and use a vaice filter, cause that's lame and disrespectful
I'm a German Vtuber and our niche is far more unknown than it is in the anglophone corner of the internet. We basically only have two real agencies, one of which is fairly small in reach, and the other only has 3 members with around 60-200 viewers average. Thus we're pretty much all indies, but even then, the pressure is immense. People get into arguments all the time because there's this feeling that everyone just wants to leech off other people. There's tons of little squabbles at all times. And people feel like they can never stop - if you're gone for a week, half of your viewers basically forget you ever existed. I was on holiday once for a week and averaged around 15 viewers back then, when I returned, only my mod, who's also a very good friend, came to my first stream after the break. That was tough. I've tried to grind and did my best and now I'm at 20-30 again, usually, and I fear that if I stop, I'll be forgotten again. It's happened to most of us at this point at least once I'm currently on winter break so yeah, scary.
Yam, thank you so much for putting out this video. For a while I've been doing my own thinking about the work culture and it has hit me on how demanding the workload is. I agree too that this resonates for content creation as a whole, but vtuber culture has it worse because we are expected to be multi-talented. I am glad I am not along in thinking this much and hard about trying to slow things down but yet inevitably speeding things up. Once again thank you so much for putting it out!
Thank you for saying so! It is truly hard to curb your enthusiasm for the grind as a creator. I've had to actively work on pacing myself as a creator who tries to dabble in everything. Choosing a single focus (making videos) has helped me a lot!
This was an excellent analysis. Although it's sad, I appreciate that you went this route to show that being a VTUBER isn't all sunshine and rainbows; and that like with everything else there are issues that need addressing! When I consume content (of all types, not just VTubing) sometimes I don't stop to think about what goes on behind the scenes and just take the content at face value, so I feel a lot of other people are the same way... I also wouldn't find it much of a stretch that notice of this escapes some of the content creators who've gotten lost in the grind as well. That being said, the first step to any change is awareness, and this video raises just that! I'm hoping that your video leads to more people realizing what an issue this is and gains traction! It definitely deserves it! In my mind, this video raises an interesting question: "If you have to continuously put yourself out there because you are afraid your audience might leave if you take a break, is it one worth having?" Of course, views aren't owed, nothing is in life, but... Investing all this time, energy, and money into something only to have people leave (or fear of them leaving), that's got to be a massive mental drain and you have to question at what point does it stop being worth it. Interestingly, when you brought up that "when one ends stream, it's pretty easy for a fan to find a similar one that is streaming and suits their taste" (paraphrasing a bit), it reminded me of and backs up my belief in how you are right you are about striving to not follow a formula/trying to be unique. I think if you follow a formula then you will always end up being replaceable in the consciousness of the majority, whereas if you are doing something unique, there won't be other options for them to go to when you end stream and they'll be thinking of you while waiting for you to stream again (a bit dark of a take). That said, I'm pretty optimistic overall, because I feel like a lot of Vtubers have their core members as well, who stick by them through thick and thin (might be 3 to 5 people or 10 to 30 depending on size), so it isn't like all fans/viewers do naturally forget or don't care. I just meant that I feel the striving to be unique does have more benefit to it in the long run! (struggled a bit to word my thoughts on the last two paragraphs, hope that comes across right). But yeah, great video and looking forward to the next one as always~
I appreciate reading your analysis as always, a lot of good additions! This grind mindset (grindset) isn't specific to VTubers alone but the need to constantly be learning all these skills and managing such a widespread brand makes it intense to say the least. To anyone looking to become a VTuber I reccomend they take inspiration from outside sources in addition to their favorite VTubers, and be conscious of the pressure so that it may not get to them as easily.
Thank you for bringing attention to this topic. Another point I would like to add is that staff may also be victims of burnout if the company mentality is to grind 24/7. While HoshiLive is just one smaller agency, we try our best to prioritize streamer and staff wellbeing, to avoid the very issue you mentioned. Not only is it the right thing to do in our opinion, but it seems to be the better long-term strategy for VTuber agencies going forward. VShojo, for example, is gaining a lot of talents who were formerly from other agencies like Hololive, because they (seemingly) offer better work conditions for their talents. This video is a good reminder to not push oneself too hard, and that it's okay to take a break every so often. Your true fans will understand, and will be there when you return 💜
Thank you for the reply Hoshilive! I am happy to hear that your team prioritizes talent and staff wellbeing. That is the best business model an agency can have!
Holo is not a great example because one streamer explored other options for a year before giving up and joining, and the more recent one was fired out of a cannon. Vsho may need to learn some more harsh lessons yet about managing talents and maintaining a healthier social media environment. Not hoping for any bad outcomes but the aggression and rebelliousness can make them unpredictable partners
what a real video 😭😭💜 thank you.. I suffered from burnout and quitting but I returned with a more positive focus and a clear mindset on my schedule now!
An informative, thought-provoking, and all-around excellent video. Though I find myself merely enjoying various Vtubers on a regular basis, I rarely think deeply about what the talents themselves sacrifice on a daily basis in order to bring their avatars to life. Thanks for shining some light on these issues, and I hope that the talents behind our favorite Vtubers, whether corporate or indie, can advocate for themselves and create an environment that doesn't burn them out.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I agree with you. I think that if there is a shift in work environment and attitude, these issues will be less common!
This was disconcerting to learn about but I'm really glad you made this video. I think I need to go pay more love to the vtubers I follow now! And support more just in general, hah.
The grind culture in content creation, especially in VTubing, is a big part of the reason why despite wanting to try it for myself, I never really tried. I already have health issues, doing all this work would probably send me straight to hospital if it's so hard for relatively healthy individuals with company support...
Very interesting video! I personally think that if you start vtubing o streaming in general with the expectation of making this your job and make a living out of this from the beggining then you are doing it wrong. I think that one must start making content for themself and take it easy and with no hurries, try to find the type of content and personality you feel the most comfortable with and then find a balance with your real life activities and your streams. I think trying to force yourself and your content will make you end burning out and full of stress.
Couldn't agree with you more here! Casual content creation with little expectation is the way to go if you want to maintain a healthy relationship with your channel. I am trying to strike that balance as a hobbyist myself!
I feel like the consequences in this video highlited Nene's first year, but Nene was able to work around them and get more time for herself! Sheesh, she even goes out to the mountains to catch bugs on her free time during summer!
From my perspective of someone who’s only seen monosuzu nene from clips and in holofes 3, she strikes me as someone who wants to be in hololive more than anything in the world. She seems so happy to be there performing for all of us, and her enthusiasm may be why she struggles to take breaks. Her enthusiasm for vtuber idols is contagious and inspiring!
Firstly, the video was interesting and will help getting people to consider these things. There's definitely a lot to unbox in terms of vtubing and internet entertainment culture. And it won't always be the same either. One of the agencies I follow 774inc. has had a lot of vtubers since they split off and became their own agency. All quitting for their own reasons. There are health reasons of course (the agency isn't big enough that you could go full time soon after debuting so overwork could be very real), however a couple of them entered the agency with pre-existing conditions. One of them was a vtuber before entering the agency, but I didn't follow them that much until she was a part of 774 inc. Following a couple of graduations left me thinking that they just moved on to greener pastures. Then there are a couple who just didn't really want (or couldn't) do the idol thing anymore. One case in particular is interesting. Souya Ichika is still a part of 774 inc. but just left the Animare idol group. 774 inc's idol activities are on the lesser side, getting 2-4 live shows a year depending on who you follow within the agency. So maybe stopping just the idol part is more simple for them than say Hololive JP. Though I think this is a new thing for 774 inc. too as well. As before I think they were more likely to let them go independent like one of their other talents in another group. After writing all this down I'm not sure where I was going with it, but I guess I'm trying to say the topic of graduation and overwork is an interesting one. I've seen graduations from legal problems more than once now after all. Sadly there's not much we can do but speculate, and at a certain point that can be unhealthy too. Hopefully there's a bright future for the new media we all love.
Thank you so much for taking the time to share your insight! I will definitely check that group out! Honestly, I believe that internet jobs like these can be very helpful for people with underlying health conditions, but it's also much easier to overwork at an online job you love! There isn't that barrier of a physical place you go to keeping you from burning the late night oil so to speak.
As a person who vtubed for many months with an unnaturally high voice that I'd been using for many years before i even started vtubing. It SEVERELY damages your throat. I have permanent damage to my throat because of all the time that i used this voice. When you do voices make sure you're doing them safely. Aka, don't do them for long periods of time, take rests, drink water, and make sure the voice you're doing isn't scratching your throat when you're doing it.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I am so sorry that happened. As someone who tried a character voice in my streams in the beginning, I knew I just couldn't keep it up. I hope your voice recovers over time.
Thank you, this was very informational. VTubers like you are actually my favorite type of VTubers together with the singers like at RIOT. I dislike streams. I value my time and like well-prepared videos full of content. A pill of content made to be short and complete. If you instead made a 3h long stream on this topic instead of 15mins long video, I wouldn't even bother clicking it. I'm not some NEET or a student with lots of time and I can't play streams in the background while working, as I need to avoid distractions during my work. Streams are supposed to offer a way to interact with the streamer in real time, but with 30+ active people on the chat, it's already pointless. It can't be even called interaction. Streamers like that might as well get replaced by Neuro-sama, that is, if Neuro actually had her own personality. I really don't understand why streams are so popular... It's going for length instead of quality... And people were supposed to have short focus span...
Wow Yam!!!! I swear the algorithm is wired in my brain because every time I think about taking steps into being a Vtuber, a video of yours pops up and always makes me think my plans (not in a bad way)! Just on how can I pursue this as a healthy hobby and not get swept up in trends/idol culture. I just want to stream lol Another great Video!!!! 💛
Taking breaks and cancelling streams when you know you're not up to it. I had at least one week where I straight-up deleted the schedule that I posted initially bc, mentally, I wasn't up for it.
I like to think I'm glass half full guy/goose/duck daddi, but I seriously doubt any change will come from the top. Change from the top will only come once said change is more profitable than staying the same. I firmly believe change can come from the bottom. Most of the vtubers out there in the community are Indie, if enough of them raise up and say, "No more. We wont operate like this, we are people with lives as well!" then change can come. No one person can be bigger than an agency, but as a collective, the possibility is there.
As I was watching this video, I feel like I still have a lot to learn about vtubing and/or streaming in general. Especially as a 13 year old who wants to start streaming. Because of my age, joining an agency is out of the question, so I plan on making it on my own. Of course, I wouldn't be able to stream consistently because I am always so busy with life, so I would only stream a few times a month or none at all. But even so, I feel like I wouldn't really make it as far because I still wouldn't know what I'll have in store for my viewers and I feel like I wouldn’t be very interesting as an entertainer. So I wouldn’t really be able to do much aside from regular gameplay and drawing/chatting streams. Overall, there's still a lot I have to keep in mind and a lot I have to study on if I ever want to start streaming, especially as a vtuber. EDIT: Especially with my age, the stress and exhaustion that would normally come with vtubing will be much harder on me because I am much younger than the average VTuber. Agencies require their talents to be at least 18 to start activities, so most of their talents are older than that. Now think of the same issues that Vtubers mainly face, but instead on a still developing 13 year old.
The biggest advice I can give you is that Anonymity is your friend as a VTuber! Do it on a new account, and don't give ANY personal details. The internet is a scary place, so be sure to get your parents permission and maybe even get them involved for some family fun! And never put your VTuber activities over your health or school work! Good luck out there friend!
This is such an interesting video I loved it! I agree there is this kind of "hustle/grind" culture that a lot of vtubers have, and that I think comes from two things, at least for Vtubers that form part of an agency: 1. Japanese work culture (specially in companies like Hololive and Nijisanji). Even though these companies don´t want their Vtubers to burn out and are somewhat flexible (specially if the Vtuber is already sucessful), still the expectation of work is very high, and that expectation is fed by my second point, and that is... 2. The Vtuber´s own lack of workload management (overwork). The Vtubers usually set themselves with very very high goals and standards, but here´s the thing, the Vtubers don´t NEED to do so much, BUT since they want to reach their own expectations, management expectations and the fans expectations, they end up overworking themselves. Vtubers that NEED the money from a second job sadly have to overwork in order to continue their vtuber activities, but sucessful vtubers don´t necessarily have to, but the vast majority of them want to, Calliope Mori and Ouro Kronii from Hololive EN are the two examples that I´m most familiar with (the former being an artist in two separate personas besides her Vtuber work, and the latter being an active VA besides her Vtuber work) Although I would like to point out that there are some Vtubers that do manage these things really well, and these are the usual Vtubers that you hear participating in multiple projects yet they seem to have days off and good quality sleep, of course they work a lot and some times when they have to overwork themselves for certain period of time to deliver (in special events, for example), but overall their health seems to be good or at least not declining or terrible (and this may be due to the particular Vtuber simply being more efficient at her work or not participating in as many projects as other Vtubers, I can´t say for sure). That is my take on Vtubers that belong to an agency.... For indie Vtubers, this things can vary, some of them overwork themselves a lot, some of them continue to work or study normally besides being a vtuber. But the big takeaway from indie vtubers is this... 1. If an indie Vtuber wants to do a project they basically have to manage absolutely everything by themselves, of course, indies do smaller scale projects in comparison to agency vtubers, since they usually don´t have the money or the people to do bigger projects (or they will do bigger projects on the long term, contrary to agency vtubers that can do bigger projects in the short term) 2. Small indie Vtubers don´t have that much money or following to promote their work or to raise enough funds for their work, which once again make things more difficult. Now, of course there are always exceptions, Vtubers like Saruei and Bao are sucessfull vtubers (they have a considerably large following for a vtuber, and can raise enough funds for their activities fairly quickly) and these two vtubers, even though they work really hard they take days off where they actually take the day off, and don´t have a set schedule or projects since they basically are the owners of their own brand, and once again these Vtubers will set very high goals and continue to hustle to deliver and reach their fans expectations and their own expectations, but I feel that in a more healthy way.
Sorry for the large comment, I got inspired lmao, if there is something someone disagrees with or needs clarification, feel free to comment!.... Also, I realized with the "hustle" culture a lot of Vtubers have I realized they want and have to become a "jack of all trades and master of all" to achieve their particular goals, and that will of course turn into overwork and burn out.... Anyways, take care y´all!
Wow thank you for taking the time to add your own analysis. It was very neat hearing a finer and more nuanced analysis than I gave in my video. I totally agree with you that the overwork really varies from creator to creator. I truly worry for the talents that try to keep up with an agency level demand of content and still do a second job on top of it. On the other hand, indies do have that choice to slow their pace, which is great. (So glad I'm making videos now instead of following a stream schedule myself.) There is a pattern that I see in the independent vtuber community, however. Indie VTubers themselves often expect agency level quality out of themselves even if no one is putting it on them! The amount of indie VTubers who feel the NEED to increase their schedule, learn another language, save up for that high quality model, do marathon streams, edit their own clips, and learn 5 other stream related skills off stream is wild. Especially when their goal is to join an agency, the grindset in the indie community can get very intense.
I like your scripts. In general, I'm interested in informative content that lets me understand the vtuber space better. This is why I followed Depressed Nousagi, but with his type of content it was only a matter of time until he crashed. Additionally, he always had the angle of "one of us", a guy thirsting for animu girls. Gladly, you're lacking that. I can get so much knowledge about the fabric this bubble of entertainment is made out of, it's so nice. Of course, consuming content doesn't exist without a war on time, so I don't know how much I'm able to follow you, but yo, thanks for the things you do.
Kson and Rushia example is not quite right in this case, they don't quit the agency because of burn out issue. That aside, here are some important feedback for all talent agency out there... Human normally don't speak for 3-5 hours a day, it's not strange if they hurt their throat or vocal cord. That is why professional singer have their own vocal cord therapy and training. Talent agency also need to realize, jam packing the streamer with streaming hours quota won't help with the burnt out in the long run. It will fall under the quantity over quality trope. Anything that involved creativity and art need plenty of break time, it's not a textbook work. Our brain need to refill the dopamine by resting and taking a break. This is why indie streamer, content creator, and freelancer tend to have better quality of life and heathy life mentally and physically. They also produce more stable quality stream and unique content. Start threating your talents as human, not just money making machine, your company will have better brighter future.
i think the point with Rushia was that she was already a person dealing with serious mental illness and the corpo vtuber work culture & fandom both exacerbated that, leading to the kinds of decisions that get one fired! Also streamers developing parasocial relationships with their fans is a thing as well, that's another part of it with Rushia and i've seen that in both other corpo & indie vtubers as well
this is SUCH a good video. I was started to ask myself the same questions of when will it be enough for these vtubers. thank you for shedding light on such a dark aspect of vtubing that nobody likes to acknowledge. the video was well organized and easy to consume, so thank you!!
Thank you for the review! It's very educational, and I should say I'm surprised that Kiryuu Coco is actually KSon! (I kinda have my guess, but still www) Yeah, you maybe realized I'm not really into VTubers rabbit hole & it's more like a thing that interested me in a casual way. It's just I found some channels interesting and/or educative (like yours, for example) then decide to subscribe. As for the VTuber work culture, I think it's a thing that going on in the business industry overall but particularly in Japanese, so I hope they can get a healthier work environment soon! I love more informative content like this, thank you very much for your effort!
Hey thank you for leaving a comment and supporting the channel! So sorry to spoil the coco to kson identity shift for you ahaha. Casual viewing is the best way to go about VTubers. If you treat them like any other creator you casually watch, you'll have a good experience! I do hope that work culture does improve for Japan in the future too!
I think this was a well put-together presentation on a problem I've also been noticing. You breakdown the issue well and make good use of specific examples. I think the introduction is downright chilling, seeing so many of these poor women try to downplay their serious health issues for the sake of maintaining their positions at or near the "top". I do have some light criticism, which of course you are free to ignore as it is unsolicited: I think your metaphors could use a little work, in particular I don't think you really explained why vtubing was a "treadmill", and a "revolving door" usually evokes a steady flow of people, not the same people going back and forth between two positions (that's more like a pendulum, in my opinion). I also would've liked to see more research in your conclusion, because as it stands your suggestions come across as well-wishing, no offense. Everything would be better if we could simply ask companies to take their employee's health into consideration, but that doesn't really work. Seeing what has worked for other, similar industries of creatives (particularly industries filled with independents) would have strengthened your argument: for example, considering how actors and writers both have guilds/unions to enforce work guidelines. Still, it was a good presentation!
Thank you for supporting my content. I appreciate the feedback, especially since this is my first video essay! I agree that my metaphors and points can be better thought out and supported with evidence. I will try to actively improve in this in the future!
I am guessing the big issue (but also strong point) is that model somehow seems to be based on Japanese 'Idol Model' where they kinda needs to be jack of all trades in pretty same manner. This produces a genuinely majestic artists/entertainers buuuut also is harsh and may lead to burnout.
Thanks for the video! I thought about this before but never managed to put it all together like that in my head. T makes me fear that we may see a big number of graduations in next few years
very insightful video. i think it would benefit both the talents and the community if they didnt stream so many hours; some vtubers push out so much content that i never get time to watch it all anyways, imagine wanting to watch multiple vtubers...
From years of watching irl RUclipsrs who went from years of releasing videos pretty much every day without fail is that they suffered from burnout. Markiplier and Jacksepticeye spent years of releasing content without fail but eventually realized that it was ok to take a break and that fans would still be there when they came back. VTubers haven’t been around that long in comparison so they might not know that taking a break is ok especially in Japan.
Such a nice and well-researched, concise video! I truly feel like you've cracked the code here and you know what? You earn a sub just for that. As someone who plans to pick up V-Tubing himself, I feel the need to properly inform myself about as much as possible of what it entails to know beforehand just what I'm getting myself into here. Therefore I have decided for myself, especially since V-Tubing wouldn't be the only thing I do, that I'd rather try something such as one or two videos/streams per week or a little more depending on how I'm feeling. I really wouldn't wanna overshoot it on the trying to remain relevant aspect, because I don't have the grandest of aspirations and just starting out, while it can be a great drive, I also feel like it is unhealthy. You're often times setting yourself up for disappointment expecting a lot of gain from your efforts so my declared goal is that I want to do this thing for fun, to just put myself out there and share it with some people, who might enjoy it. If in the beginning that's nobody or just two people, then so be it, I'm doing this for myself as well. To create something I can be proud of. It's like fulfilling a dream and to realize a dream you don't always need to become rich and famous or ultra successful at the end of the road. It's about self-fulfilment. That's a mentality I feel a lot of indies would benefit from. The feeling of having to be a jack of all trades... while there, I feel like I have a niché I can go for. Will it be the most successful one? Probably not, but ultimately it'll make me happy and the audience that may or may not be there to watch me will like it too, due to me or a genuine interest in the subject and for no other reason. As for the corporate side... I worry for a lot of my favorites as well. You mentioned Laplus specifically in the video... It just so happens that she's my oshi. I always tell her to take care of herself, because she too is already reporting some strains on her voice and I wouldn't want her to lose it because she overexerts herself... Obviously I don't speak enough Japanese to tell her in anything but English, but she's improving on that front and I hope she doesn't let the expectations of toxic fans get the better of her, but will listen to those instead, who care for her not just as a streamer, but as a person too. Because that's what many fail to understand... a human being is not a machine and V-Tubers are only their characters to a certain extend. Many could benefit from learning that lesson. So overall yes, I do agree with your statement of them just having to slow down, not just for themselves, but the whole industry's sake. In general, I hate how algorithms function in that you constantly have to post to be on people's minds. If you really manage to make an impact on someone, they will always come back to you, at least until you change your style to the point they don't like it anymore (like beyond all recognition akin to a failed rebranding attempt) or if they grow out of/turn their backs on the content you produce, not you as a person. But life these days is fast-paced and the human psyche is wired to be drawn to new things constantly... While it is within human nature though, I don't feel it needs to be that way forever. It just sucks that the pioneers are destroying themselves and pushing human limits both physically and mentally all for the sake of living up to the expectations placed on their shoulders. Laplus could only post a silly tweet about all of the expired stuff she has in her room and do a short Twitter space every once in a while, I still wouldn't leave her side. It doesn't take much to nurture a loyal fanbase once you have it. Why care so much about the fleeting market? Why not stick to those, who will always be by your side? Isn't that why we have few true friends but many acquaintances in life? If you have a strong core audience, drawing in one less person shouldn't be a big deal and we are only human after all, thus can only please so many people. Everyone should realize that. So for the love of god, if you made it this far into the comment, please tell your favorite streamers, be they indie or corporate, to take it easy every once in a while. There's always archives, that's how the Ryuguards were coping with Finana's absence which she just returned from. If you really miss that person and they're on break or hiatus, watch some of their old stuff, draw fanart for them or the like... They'll appreciate it all the more later. It's not a crime to watch somebody else in the mean time either, you don't have to resent the other streamer later for, **for once mind you**, putting themselves first. Mental health is just as important as physical health people, if not more so in some cases and self-care is already neglected by far too many folks as it stands. Just look at how broken poor Rushia is... no matter in what iteration. In fact, a certain angel posted a fairly concerning tweet just a short while ago, which I just wanted to respectfully scream at her for to please seek professional help. Alright you absolute legend, you made it through the whole comment. I salute to you. This topic is very near and dear, as well as personal to me since I may be faced with similar situations in the future and want to be prepared for them. So take care of yourself too and thanks for taking the time to read my comment, I wish you all the best!
Wow! Thank you for the wonderful insight. I wish you all the best on yout VTuber journey (Hope this video didn't scare you too bad!) I started my own vtuber journey with a 3 stream a week schedule, and it wasn't too much for me. I switched to primarily videos because I found this community fascinating, and have a lot to say about it! I encourage you to experiment with your own content early on and find what kind of content you find the most fun to make!
@@YamAlbat No no, don't worry, I still cling to my plans tightly, won't be deterred that easily, hehe. And thank you very much! While I don't have the grandest of ambitions, it would still be nice to bring entertainment to a few people and maybe make some new friends along the way, whether that be to the top or "the average". That's all I really hope to achieve, all while having fun of course! I do plan to do it as a hobby, not even wanting to think about it full time. While three streams sounds nice, it might not be very sustainable for me once my next semester starts back up as I'm on break right now and that's a prime time to start. Add to that the newbie motivation of wanting to put yourself out there for the first time. I wouldn't want people to expect too much right from the get-go. They need to understand straight away that there may be phases of less content depending on what's going on in my life and while I have ideas and such, I want to prepare and maybe there would be a week every once in a while where you can't do more than the absolute minimum. You ought not only have the good times in mind, but also the bad. That's why I want to try keeping people's expectations low so when there's a slew of content to watch or the like, they'll appreciate all the more, knowing that it's an exception. That said, the scripted video approach has always appealed to me most, thus it may yet become my primary content too. There are a lot of experiences I will have to make, so I'm trying to keep an open mind while considering what is realistically achievable for me just starting out not knowing many things. One grows with their tasks and experiences after all and stream 34 is gonna be much different from the first two. Therefore, yes I'll definitely bear that in mind! The more fun you have, the more it should hook the audience too ^^. You don't even need them glued to the stream, sometimes it's good just knowing you're someone's background noise on a bad day.
Saw the preview on twitter, this seems like it'll be a super interesting watch! Edit: I was correct, this was a really interesting video, as a vtuber myself it certainly gave me a new perspective on things 💖
Comment regarding Kson: notice that she announced she would be joining VShojo EXACTLY one year after graduating from Hololive. I think that's no coincidence, it's probably to honor a clause she signed upon leaving Hololive. It would not surprise me that she started negotiating with VShojo even before graduating from Holo. And I think that's good, Hololive really did blunder their response to the Haachama incident; if they're gonna blunder like that, it's best to renegotiate the whole deal. I'm certain she obtained much better perks from VShojo, as befits a talent of her stature. That said, Kson is exceptional. It's fine to be inspired by her talents and hardworking nature, but very few streamers will ever have the leverage Kson had.
Ignoring the thumbnail... I appreciate this perspective on their health. I've always heard them say how hard their coworkers work. Never really understood what they meant, so this perspective was much appreciated and probably needed. Though yeah, I figured it's just like being a regular RUclipsr. As other RUclipsrs have said about being a RUclipsr, you're basing all your income on a single highly variable source, on a platform that can easily delete every video, ban, shadow-ban, age-restrict, or demonitize you, on a system that... isn't good for you. You have to self-moderate. Like I've heard, normal people don't choose this abnormal line of work. I never thought RUclips-ing was something you could/would do for more than 10 years. And yeah, relatively few people have lasted that long. Tekking101 being one of the only channels I can think of being that old. All that on top of internet culture and how RUclipsrs interact with their audience. We are *Chat* we are a potentially tireless entity, infinite in resources and infinite in demand. There is no such thing as "enough" in the current consumer culture on the internet, TV, streaming platforms, blogs, comics, etc. TFS had to announce an end to their DBZ S Abridged series, shows are allergic to a satisfying conclusion without a season 2 or spinoff. I've seen more incomplete comics than I care to count. Typically ending from lack of interest, burnout, or financial/health reasons. And as far as I know, typically if not always from single or a few people. One Piece. It's not even over and Tekking101 was theorizing on how some odd plot points might be Oda and the editors setting up plot lines for a sequel to One Piece once it ends in... idk a decade for the anime? Hopefully only that long for the manga/Oda's sake. Going back: How creators and consumers interact is a huge thing too. I always thought it was odd that if you donate/pay enough money on Patreon, some creators would let you work on stuff with/for them. But, it makes sense because such consumers are self-selecting for dedication and financial positions. And it minimizes the potential strain on the RUclipsr/creator. All the toxic parts of out relationship. I was going to relate us to a person with a bunch of mental illnesses but I'd be interesting to see a deeper dive into that. If we, *chat, viewers, whatever* were psychologically evaluated. How many things would be found wrong with us.
Thanks for adding your insight! Agreed, only those who have a seriously abnormal passion for this type of content creation would agree to do it full time. And creating content on RUclips isn't enough, like you mentioned, creators tend to have various streams of income in the way of different platforms, crossovers, and merchandising. Chat being comprised of so many people, is bound to have some sour grapes here and there, but pair it with mob mentality and parasociality and a chat can get pretty volatile pretty quick!
@@YamAlbat Yeah, the prime example that comes to mind is that streamer with turrets, sweet anita?. People triggering her "banana" tick to the point of damaging her throat.
Loved this! I actually didn't know that a lot of VTuber voices were put on, I thought it was just a big range of natural voices, woops. I definitely hate the 'grind' mindset in VTubing - my particular bugbear is subathons, since they're designed to push beyond healthy limits. One of the only upsides to the Covid pandemic, IMO, has been seeing agencies actually give their talents time off instead of expecting them to work through illness.
This was very well done, however this is something that has to do with all type of content creators or public figures, from Irl actors through artists, regular streamers and Vtubers. Ie I do have a Ig account, I post drawings, I know if I stop posting for a few days the algorithm will kick my balls and I'll reach way less people, that's the same for everyone else that posts on internet, if a Vtuber doesn't stream Yt algorithm will share the content less, so this is a mixed shitbag of having to worry about the algorithm + the work ethic of the corporation you're working for + your personal work ethic. In this case I think it's way more notorious on Japan side and that's basically because they have a culture that tends to push people to overwork, specially when it comes to entertainment, however this is not always the employers fault, Ie I know others have mentioned Ayame, and yes, Ayame and others can spend their time without streaming for weeks and not be "punished", they're still bringing revenue in the form of sponsors and image, the videos that are already up also bring passive income and they get big numbers when returning. This also leads to their individual work ethic, for Fubuki and Korone management has pretty much begged to them to take a rest and I think one of Korones old manager even cried because of it, meanwhile Fubuki was literally forced to take a break for a week, same with others, Pekora and Marine streamed when they knew they shouldn't because of their throat, others like Watame and Botan had learned the hard way (pass lives and similar) pushing themselves won't do any good and take it easy, Polka too for example and this is a wide contrast with En and Id culture at least in Holo where they would stream a few times a week and not daily. It's almost like its a sort of addiction to stream which when you do for so long it does feel weird to suddenly stop, but it also comes to play the algorithm I mentioned above. More mental health treatment will probably help, Nene and Ayame had mentioned having depression, it's very easy to worry about numbers, about if people will leave you for the new shiny popular streamer and feel jealous about how others are doing or worry if your niche is getting taken away even without your own group of friends (Lamy, Coco mentioned it) etc, etc. For what I know Holos at least for the first year are contractually obliged to stream a minimum of three times a week, which isn't too and actually, they can chose to stick to that minimum amount or stream more. So yeah, this is not only in the Vtuber industry but all entertainment industry as a whole but I think it might be more notorious as of now with Vtubers with how fast everything is happening, the industry isn't even 10yrs old and there's a lot already happening it feels difficult to keep track of it but yeah, that's pretty much it, this culture has been here way before internet (see Marilyn Monroe for ex, or the movie Perfect Blue) but the good thing is that we've been moving forward, were not in an ideal place yet but we're getting there, we gotta keep pushing for it.
Thanks for your insight! I acknowledge that this never ending time sensitive grind does apply to all content creators, but I still feel like VTubers have a special type of pressure put on them still. Not just to upload streams and posting on social media regularly but to also be working on their singing voice, attending dance lessons, writing songs, illustrating, voice lines for things, learning a second language, not to mention the other behind the scenes of their brand. I haven't seen many content creators that are expected to be so good at so many different things. As a VTuber who previously tried to do it all and now decided to focus on videos only, I can say it's more sustainable to be more of a focused creator rather than trying to live up to the VTuber standards. I agree with a lot of your points though! Thanks again for contributing to the conversation
@@YamAlbat Oh yeah, tho I think that's more based onto the Idol culture some of them are based on, Ie while it's expected it's good to see most of them are prying away from that and doing what they can and they want, tho Holos and Nijis knew what they were doing when they signed up for it, specially the latter generations, they know they'll eventually had to do Idol-like stuff and still decided to apply, so that's on them, what I can blame the companies on it's the workload (the Vtubers aren't really expected to stream if they're too tired) and the way the handle situations+ the obvious lack of awareness about mental health, IE the Idol-like things is what actually brought some of them like Suisei, Nene and Watame, but they also too aren't expected to be the greatest gamers because being honest Holo doesn't have a lot of great gamers but it seems they stream because they genuinely like it en if it's the same game over and over and because of the sense of community they've, we can also blame the viewers for having expectations that a Vtuber should do it all when that's not true, just let them do what they are good at.
Yea I can understand and if someone cant I would still use voice changer sense some cannot make their voice sound younger than they can or what they want
In regular work holidays and time schedules are built into the contract expectations. Most Vtubers seem to be effectively self employed so holidays/breaks go down, stream times (office hours) go up, days worked basically becomes “yes” and that’s before collabs, background projects (songs, sponsors, events and practice/upkeep). The entertainment industry has always been a conveyor belt of content so when some people land done success they tend to break themselves in the process of preserving the subscriber/fan signup rates.
Calli in holo is definitely the high-effort, high-engagement type. She stubbornly pushed her music and spent her own money on music, and now she signed with Universal and had a concert in a live venue. She really could stand to listen to her managers and get better downtime for herself. Meanwhile Gura had _so much_ initial success that she was practically keeping her head down for a very very long time. After almost two years, it sounds like she will be displaying some of her ambitions.
Depending on what the Vtuber is good at, some may need a lot more stream time, some can just sing /ASMR their way through. There are traits and skills that make some people more well suit to Vtubers. But that's just the same to any business. Entrepreneurs basically grind through the startup part of their business, with some working over 60hours per week, or have their entire life around their business for a year or two, knowing the technical part of their businesses, knowing the law, accounting and marketing, speech skill to present the products, etc. It just so happens that the Top Agencies show the best of the best.
Thanks for your perspective! I totally agree that it depends on the VTuber's content in regards to how much preparation work goes in. When I first started as a VTuber, I wanted to write a ton of original songs. To maintain my stream schedule, however, I had to immediately drop that and focus on mainly gaming content because I could not find the time outside of work and school to prepare anything ahead of time. I hope even the busiest of entrepreneurs will learn to take a break every now and again 🧡
The fact that you can be a woman in your mid-30's and still attract a large audience is a blessing of vtubing. It's basically impossible in any other entertainment medium. But with that comes way more competition, and any competitive industry will grind people down. The solution if you value work-life balance? Get a job almost everyone hates doing, but is necessary. Something like maintaining a waste treatment plant. You will have great pay, great benefits, go home on time everyday, and no antis. If you want a job that everyone else wants? Then you'll need to be the best among all the candidates, whether that's natural talent or hard work, or both. Now that doesn't sound like a great system, but trust me, this is better than the alternatives, such as nepotism, decree by a central planning authority, plain luck (e.g. born beautiful), or other under-the-table dealings (e.g. giving your body to the boss). Also it's kind of funny to hear you criticize what it takes to succeed using the vtubing formula when you're not particularly successful yourself. You decided you want to do this without making those sacrifices. I can respect that. But success is a lot less likely than following a well-trodden path.
Yup Im doing it all by myself 👍works for my stuff have been in the works for the past 2 years... hopefully to finish by the end of this year or mid next year. And even then Its rinse and repeat. Except I won't be able to bulk up content like this a momentum cannot die down once its up.. else all my or someone elses work will be for nothing.
I know this is months late, but as someone in a similarly revolving door industry (Game Developers go through almost literally the same thing with indie and corpo verbatim) the only solution is to not take shit from your employers and don't overwork past your regular hours. On average, people in my industry burnout and quit in 5 years. That is fucking insane for a career path that doesn't pay some people enough to live comfortably. The only way people remain in the games industry long enough to make a reasonably big impact is by pacing themselves and not allowing big wigs to walk all over them in the hopes of climbing the ladder quickly. Labor laws regarding my profession are not being taken as seriously, and it's getting to a point where you must analyze how much work you're being given and realize when you're being taken advantage of by employers. Especially in indie dev groups funnily enough, because there have been many examples of those places having almost no one to regulate their work schedule. At least with corpo, you know you'll be protected by labor laws and the like and will be able to take action if you feel so inclined. When taking on an independent project however, there are risks to consider in terms of having little to sometimes no legal wall between you and bad working conditions. I've found that even if someone has good intentions, things can go south for the workers. You really need to surround yourself with workers that know what they're doing and have good intent, otherwise your work collectively will suffer for it. This applies here in droves, you definitely need to have breaks, it's the most important part of work. If you don't give yourself breaks, you will start to shut down, your quality of work will go down, and your living conditions will start to suffer to fill in the time gaps you've left for free time. I would know, sometimes I have to put myself under crunch for several weeks to keep up with my work in game dev college. It's terrible what it does to my mental health, sense of self-worth, and environment. I can only imagine how bad it is for these people who spend their 24/7 working.
Vtubers need to patent their character as a whole. When the decide to go to a agency, they lend the rights during the duration of the contract. If the agent writes, they retain the rights of the character.
Good thought! That isn't traditionally how agencies work because originally the models of the hololive and nijisanji caliber were hard for a layman to get their hands on. Even now, a model of that quality is quite the investment! But I agree that I would love to keep my character! Thanks for contributing to the conversation!
There's a company that's fairly new that tries to put limits on how long and how often their talents are allowed to regularly stream to avoid burnout. Their goal is for livestreams to be about a quarter to a third of their work time in a traditional 40 hour week. There's also uploading regular videos and shorts as well as meetings to try to make being part of the company a 40 hour week. Some of the talent is on older contracts, so they don't have the same rules, and exceptions can be made for proper vacations or marathon stream sessions.
Because I have health issues I literally only do what I can do. I just started twitter and people already asking me when I stream and I say I don't. I just use it as a conduit to make the content I want. I know my limits and I might stream in the future but not like most people do.
The pressure to do it all as a VTuber is real. I hope your audience learns to admire your content output style. Please always put your health first in whatever outlet of content creation you decide to pursue in the future! 🧡 You got this!
This gives me an idea I might act on it but it won't be realized anytime soon. What if vtubers can establish a co op. Like yogcast. Taking a share of the profits from streaming from multiple ad hoc streamers and providing contacts to high end artist and industrial equipment of course there's gonna be a long wait time to use the equipment to minimize the capital cost but this could be a solution as the company's purpose is to provide services and generate profits which profits goes to shareholders which are also vtubers in the end.
This topic is so loaded with subjects to talk about that someone can probably make their whole Vtuber identity around discussing it, at least initially. I personally feel that Vtubing beings such a fundamentally Japanese thing culture wise also has a big negative impact on the long-term health of the talents. Japan is known for having a rather brutal work ethic, with people literally working themselves to death in the low hundreds I think every year, so for people that are so used to that being a part of their culture it doesn't surprise me that so many of them push themselves into taking on an extra strenuous schedule when in actuality it'd be a much better idea in the long term to only do the 3 day minimum. Especially given how much more responsibilities so many of them have going on behind the scenes.
I couldn't agree more! Thank you for your thoughts on Japanese work culture. I didn't want to get into it in my video, but like I mentioned, that would take a lot of extra research to accurately discuss it, when I've seen a lot of youtubers have done it better. I do think it is a major contributing factor to the vtuber culture!
In general you set out some good points. However the examples don't support the conclusion. The sana example. She already had a professional, commercial art work gig for FGO, which she was proud of and wanted to carry on with and it clashed with a streaming schedule. Then she got a back injury. How can you claim to know how she got that, or that it was linked to overwork? it could have been a chronic thing or an accident. The two reasons made her mind up to graduate. The Rushia and Kson examples just aren't linked to burnout through health or overwork and torpedo your conclusion because they cannot be forced into such a simplistic mould. Kson and Hachama showed their analytics on stream and the youtube landing page thing listed taiwan as a country. Then cover affliliated at the time with China basically got dragged into a huge political type situation with money at the source. But this was a cultural problem at the core, much bigger, much more serious, leading to the talents having to go on hiatus (which you would count as a break right? resting their voices and not producing anything for months. but yes if you do not stream for months, your relevance may take a hit.) yes toxic fans came into it, but again that clickbait label simply does not do justice to a huge portion of chinese viewers that think that way. Because of the restrictions then placed on Kson, who 100% has western sensibilities she felt restricted to the point where she couldn't produce anything and left cover. Rushia started out as a parasocial thing where her fans thought she was dating but it was not the case. In an effort to fix things she overcorrected and released details of her life to a gossip site. Who published everything. That was a breach of her NDA on her contract and it came out she had leaked DMS. So absolutely none of this is health related or overwork related. At all. Not even slightly. The two examples I would say are more closely related to cultural realities in Japan if anything, which you just cannot claim is the case for the entire vtubing scene. So next the two of them were independant, but were the #1 and #2 superchatters on youtube at one point. Yes technology and resources are a factor to make the big vtubers for tracking or content creation. It happened that Vshojo was the other option. I mean Vshojo... have you caught many Hime Hajime streams lately? You just can't claim every corporation is a treadmill, blanket statement really. How about nyanners in the last 4-6 months since she started seeing Aethelstan, or Froots streaming schedule? It just isn't the same amount of streams. An indie vtuber starting out simply would lack the resources of a corp to try to emulate the relentless schedule. But as a streamer first and starting out they would have to do what any streamer of any stripe does and work really hard, perhaps too hard to begin to succeed. Heres the thing. For a new vtuber they should recognise that cover songs and a relentless no life schedule is just beyond them and ease back slightly. Now to your main point I do see a lot of voice problems and health problems related to the lifestyle cropping up too regularly and forcing extensive breaks. I think it would take talent consistently dropping out for it to sink in as a problem for the main corps to realise its a problem. I do see a potential breaking point. For the record you could have just picked different examples in the conclusion to illustrate you mostly on the money point just fine.
The industry needs regulation, and the vtuber's fans need to stop being sycophants and actually support the person and not the industry. Be critical of corporations, supportive of individuals. Even if it means you lose access to their content, humanity comes first.
Wall of text here, but I have a lot of thoughts on this and just can't seem to consolidate them too much: I think the issues stem from a combination of things that affect all content creators, not just VTubers, as well as those that affect just them, or affect them more, such as: The grindset mentality that a lot of content creators have (which even short form content creators like people on Tik Tok have talked about) that makes them feel like they have to work as much as possible. This is also become somewhat of a cultural thing in Japan, so, even though, as you mentioned, corporate agencies often only expect talents to stream 3 times a week, the vast majority do much more than that. I think that's because of this kind of societal mentality. Not long ago, Kiara talked about how she'd tried to encourage her senpais like Pekora and Subaru to take more breaks and it's not like Hololive wouldn't allow them to. The problem is that even when working for a company that takes a more progressive stance on these things, the mentality is still there that they have to work as much as possible, to work hard for their fans and not lose them, etc. because that's the idea behind not just being a streamer, but being an idol. There's also the blurred lines between work and hobby. Jacksepticeye for example, has talked about how playing games for a living and as a hobby meant that he was often playing for fun whilst thinking "I could be making content out of this", leading him to, first of all, need hobbies he didn't associate with work and second, be able to differentiate between doing things for fun and for work in his head. As a Korone fan, I might be wrong but I get the impression that her legendary marathon streams would be marathon gaming sessions even if she wasn't streaming. Like me and a lot of other gamers, she seems like the kind of person who gets so into playing a game that she just has to finish it, the problem is though, that she IS streaming, which means she stays in character voice, etc. which is where issues start to arise. On a positive note, I do think the mentality from fans is at least changing. Years ago, Zoella made a video talking (and crying) about burnout and the toll that making videos all the time was taking on her mental health. Most fans were supportive but there was also a lot of entitled "fans" who were outraged at the idea. The video got a lot of dislikes, people said her tears were fake, she was ungrateful and acted like being successful meant not being allowed to feel that way. Now, however, whilst there are, sadly, still some of these entitled "fans" out there, I think things have improved a lot. As I mentioned earlier, you have Kiara openly talking about encouraging others to take breaks. When Haachama went on her "indefinte hiatus", not only did Hololive support her decision but she received a tonne of messages from fans telling her to take as long as she needed and that we'd all be waiting for her when she returned, which proves that the idea your fans will forget about you just isn't true. Also, in direct comparison to what happened with Zoella years ago: recently, when Zentreya redebuted, she mentioned that in the 4 days she didn't stream for, prior to the redebut, she did nothing but work in prep for the stream. As soon as she said that, Haruka immediately told her to take a break and chat was filled with messages agreeing with her. So, in just a few years we've gone from fans being outraged that a content creator they supposedly like would take a break, to fans actively encouraging them to do so.
Thanks for taking the time to share, I totally agree with your perspective! As a fellow korone fan I totally agree, she seems like the type of person who would dedicate 12 hours to a game she was really into even without the stream. Here's to hoping the talent mindset will continue to change for the better as the environment shifts!
@@YamAlbat Thank you, too, for taking the time to read it. I didn't think anyone would, tbh, lol. I think there is hope there, too. More and more big creators have been open about taking breaks that people have been generally very supportive of and I think it's just a matter of time before it gets more normalised, even amongst creators in countries like Japan. Since the internet is the way it is, for better or worse it's now very easy for influence like that to spread, so if big creators (no matter where they're from) set these kinds of standards, I think it'll spread more easily.
interesting video. i think allot of it has to do with the nature of the contracts as well. allot of it is behind closed doors and varies from person to person, but some of the other large JP groups have all kinds of nutso stuff going behind the scenes that is so hard to follow.
The Japanese agencies really do keep things under tight wraps. When researching this video, I met a lot of dead ends when trying to figure out the bare minimum streaming requirements for talents. I ended up basing my information off of the audition requirements. We will never know what really lies in their contracts, and I'm sure it varies greatly from group to group!
AFAIK Suzuhara Lulu retired not only because of mental issue, it's because there is literally a threat to her life. There are things going behind the scenes, and this is common to idol industry. I watch Lulu's irl stream and she is doing fine, so technically not a health issue but a security issue.
i do hope that the vtuber community gets more successful creators who appeal to their own very specific and narrow niches that they're passionate about. Vtubers who do indepth analysis and research about their own community? Awesome. Vtubers who host massive events with other vtubers? Exciting. Vtubers who only make sketches and films (i havent seen one like this yet)? Count me subbed. A vtuber who only ever draws, has a feminine avatar and a very manly voice? GOTTA LOVE IT. Hopefully even corpos will support these kinds of people without demanding that they cut themselves to be the perfect cookie.
Oof, yeah… it’s easy to overdo it as a VTuber. Take care friend, I hope you find a content creation style that suits you if you ever want to hop back in!
![[VTuber History] How Agency VTubers Found their Footing through Lore](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Uw_g_dRAEFA/mqdefault.jpg)
![[VTuber History] How Agency VTubers Found their Footing through Lore](/img/tr.png)
![Megan Thee Stallion - Neva Play (feat. RM) [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TpYTyAaTRts/mqdefault.jpg)
Remember to support Kson and Nazuna's VShojo Debuts this weekend!
Nazuna: twitter.com/VShojoOfficial/status/1548126338535399425?s=20&t=nIjEWe07A7yD6T3oRzO1PQ
Kson: www.twitch.tv/ksonsouchou
Kson quit over creative differences and feeling like her opportunities were being stifled. After a year of spinning her gears alone and getting nowhere, she's gone into a new group.
Nazuna was fired for misconduct going back long before she talked to that drama channel, which was discovered when the company looked into those last events.
And a certain astral creature had unexpected health problems due to an accident. The same agency has another member who only streams like 1-2 times per month it seems.
@@passintogracegoldenyearnin6310 All true statements! I wish them all the best with their future endeavors! 🧡
I also find it interesting that a certain shork does not really fit any of the patterns of overwork or over-investment that you highlighted here. She barely streamed at all for well over a month while doing other work and has had many weeks where she only streamed three times. She also mostly starts at about the same time and ends between 3-4 hours later including any post-stream chatting time. After two whole years she's finally thinking about making some kind of intro animation, it's all been crayons and GIFs up until now. She said she has non-work days where she does not go on the computer or smartphone at all, and supposedly does other things like cleaning stalls at an animal shelter (who knows?). She (or someone) retweets art on her channel but overall she has one of the lowest levels of social media engagement outside of her streams.
It's probably because she's been through a lot under other names, but regular viewers expect her to vanish when she needs to and deal with problems by herself. You've highlighted how so many channels crumble under a load they've placed on themselves....just like in Hollywood and just like regular streaming, a huge amount of time/effort/money can go in for zero returns. And most of the time, we never even knew some little 2view ever existed. That's why the shork said if you want to be a vTuber, just begin with a PNG and whatever garbage software you can teach yourself to use. Don't punish yourself, don't stream too much, don't spend too much money, just try streaming and decide where to go afterwards.
Many channels that launched and died in the last couple years were simply unprepared and overly optimistic. Same with cam streamers who break under pressure, same with youtubers who steals others' content or push themselves into debt making content, same with people who try to start a small business and be their own boss. vTubers ducking out due to fatigue or money problems are not any different from a cafe or a lawn care business failing in the first year. If anything, the losses are cheaper and the lesson learned at a younger age. And there are people like Lily who have been cam streamers for a long time, often do all-day streams, and also do voice acting or musical projects on the side. Some people are built different and they will naturally overproduce until their body forces them to stop. It's not just the vTubers. It's not just a revolving door either, some vTubers have been streaming for 4-5 years already and have not announced any plans to quit.
My feeling about the better vTubers is that they do not have to be _good at everything,_ but their willingness to try new things inspired a lot of people during a period of lockdowns and disrupted lives. Some still become too engaged and overwork themselves, or move on to different careers because they want to do new things, and maybe we can be okay with that.
For yourself, you can always be reborn if your avatar no longer feels like it fits you. You can always change channels, change branding or theme (maybe not as much as the Woo), or even just walk away if you find something more fulfilling. Shork has disappeared and been reborn several times in the search for her own identity, and there is nothing innately wrong with Kson's movements over the last few years. You can try to be like them, but really you should just be yourself. Don't break yourself down and try to make the pieces fit a different image.
You'll be fine if you let yourself be fine.
I honestly really hate that so many female vtubers feel pressured to put on these unnaturally high pitched voices, especially if they don't know how to do it without destroying their throat. I get that it's the trend and it helps to conceal their irl persona but the harm it causes in the long run just isn't worth it.
I agree. I'm very glad it has become more acceptable for female talents to use their natural voice over time. It's still very prevalent in petite characters because that is what they are expected to sound like from anime voice acting and I don't think that will go away any time soon. You do bring up a great point that there is a way to do it without the talent hurting themselves. Agencies might want to consider voice coaches specifically for that type of voice acting so that no one is streaming or singing in their character voice in a way that would injure them!
I don't know why they just don't just get a voce changer. There is a male Vtuber in Japan that uses a voice changer to sound feminine. He's also a good actor so it comes off convincingly. If for example, they want to make Luna's voice a baby voice this can be programed into the voice changer and she just has to speak normally. I have software on my coputer that can do this kind of stuff.
well that doesn't seem to be botan's problem, she's talking about liver and stomach issues, which sounds like a drinking problem. but you're right, pekora and suisei are both suffering from "voices" they do, suisei stopped doing them and seems healthier. Pekora however is sorta tied to her "voice". The issues that Korone face are more related to depression i think, she's had a really rough run of things recently, and struggled with mental health issues, which i'm sure took a lot out of her physical health.
it seems HoloEN is doing a better job of keeping it's people healthy, though ina just took a health break, and irys has had to take one as well. The rest of EN seems to stagger their schedule a bit to give them time off. Gura has proven you don't need to stream all the time to hit it big.
@@EndoftheBeginning17 i think the issue is the uncanny valley nature of voice changers turns most audiences off from a streamer. Yes, there are a couple out there that are popular in spite of their voice changer, but it’s never because of it. People crave a level of “authenticity” in their streamers (whether that’s healthy or not is a whole other issue), and voice changers read too “fake” to many fans.
It’s been a criticism that’s haunted several vtubers and caused waves of speculation about who they are, more so than even their peers in the same company (for example Zentreya from vshojo). Sadly people just prefer the “natural” pitching up of voices over voice changers 😔
Idk i like kronii voice more than the high pitched ones.
Entertainment was always cut throat and constant grind for relevance and dealing with metal issues, not really vtuber specific problem. Health issues is quite real and idol culture is bit of a problem on top but that's less in the west, at least not more then drama with any other female streamer that is not a vtuber.
metal is soo good i love it~
Interesting enough, the Vtuber culture exacerbates these problems, I know vtubbing is very new, but I honestly don't see even a top shape vtubber lasting more than 10-20 years
@@tribopower most entertainer also only last 10yr ish, esp if age drives you out of relevance.
Honestly , talent taking vacations is one of the best things for the fans , the girls get to relax and we get to "detox" from them so neither gets burnout , and the girls get stories and new ideas for new things to do on stream , example: Kiara trip to korea and all the problems she ran into , Holomyth USA meetup , Holocouncil meetup , EN fans loved when they talked about all their misadventures and little things that happen around them because we get to see a little of the real people behind the camera
Couldn't agree more! Vacations help talents both recharge and improves their zatsudan content because they have experiences to share with their audience! Kiara's trips are always so fun to hear about!
Stop calling them "girls" they are adult women.
Unless you're listening to underage girls in your free time...
It's not "Japanese work culture" to stream all of the time. It's streamer culture. They do lose relevance and viewers when they aren't streaming. I've seen it happen before. Streamers can also become addicted to streaming.
If people are there for the Twitch emotes and the chaos, they will quickly move along to a new distraction when they get bored. Especially younger viewers with no money will flit around.
When people are paid members, paid subs, have a personal investment in a character/game, or have some affinity or addiction to a given streamer's personality, they will come back when they get a channel notification. And those viewers will be the seed that drives the metrics to pull in casual viewers again. Seananners may be a good example of trying to come back from a longer hiatus. Given enough time, even a brilliant flash of light like Senzawa could find it difficult to make a comeback on her old channel.
Unless you are ayame
Japanese work culture is the root, you know streamers are workers too. If they often get a day off, they can get a "lazy label" from people & which could be bad for their image. Also as you know, they have a quota per week from the company to be fulfilled & have to give some of their income to the company, let alone the pre-requisite from a platform like RUclips which counts your "active hours" to unlock the benefit.
It can also be a coping mechanism for other issues
I also think streaming needs to become more acceptable as a job, in the first part of the video it seemed many of the talents did not want to share with their doctors that they are streamers and so the reason they are having throat problems is because they are talking constantly for hours at a time.
Kiara's had the right idea for their schedule management. She once told her senior, Subaru that they shouldn't be afraid to take breaks, she understands how Subaru loves entertaining her chat/fans but that doesn't mean they need to drag themselves to the ground.
I'm sure majority of their fans would not mind if they would have some down time, from time to time. A balance between work and rest, just like IRL.
I agree, Kiara seems to have a lot of wisdom when it comes to the industry. I love listening to her clips about content creation. I also love to hear about her travels when she goes on vacation. She's in South Korea right now and met Amelia's model artist Nabi!
I think Subaru's fundamental workaholic problem is that she got into Hololive as nearly a complete fluke. She had no streaming experience at all, not even how to make thumbnails for her stream. I think she got into a mindset that she has to prove herself over and above everyone else lest she do something wrong and get fired. And in the beginning she was desperate for money. She was working 3 part time jobs to make enough money as her family had just lost everything due to a house fire. She also has medical bills due to having a hole in her heart, so i assume she needed to make money for medical stuff too as she didn't want to be a burden on her parents.
The thing is, it's an important culture in Japan to be a hard worker. As for VTubers, is important to keep their image "desirable" to the audience, because they are public figures no matter what, & self-image could mean everything to them.
@@KhoiruunisaRF Doesn't mean they should though. Culture or not Kiara is still right. Especially with the progressive audiences today, they are under no obligation to follow a self-imposed guidelines their predecessors had in set for them.
@@jack-exzolt9858 Exactly!
I've seen so many clips from Nina Kosaka about how overworked she feels and how afraid she is of taking breaks. It's terrifying to watch happen. Even Ban Hada, who streans 3 times a week, got sick juggling that, a University degree and having to pick up a part time job just to survive, and is still on a 3 month hiatus for her health.
I agree. I hope Nina finds time to take breaks even if it is scary. Following a streaming schedule is already tough, and real life often gets in the way on top of that, making following a schedule often forcing content creators to sacrifice sleep to make it happen. It just isn't good for their health!
@@YamAlbat funny thing about taking a break is Korone needed management veto to rest because she was streaming too much and Aqua, Shion and Ayame barely stream 2 times a month. I'll be honest I feel like some people are addicted to streaming lol.
oooft, that's particularly heartbreaking for Nina Kosaka considering how much of her message to fans is to be kind to yourself :( Please rest, fox mum!
This hits even harder rn
Moona once said that even making Original Music is expensive as hell. And she have to spend her money for making that. Company do help some of the burden. But if it exceeded the budget, they have to pay for themselves.
You can copy paste this title and watch for yourself:
Moona Talks About How Much It Costs to Make Original Songs and Covers【HoloID | Moona Hoshinova】
So yeah, they are making so many schedule, just to get pay for their project. I just hope they don't go hard on themsleves.
Thank you for adding yout insight! I've seen that clip before and it was very thought provoking, as someone who originally wanted to get into hololive for their music production side, it was a wake up call for me that the quality they strive for is very expensive! I hope that as hololive grows they are able to better support the music production that their talents want to have done so that the talents no longer have to pay out of pocket for a lot of projects!
Yep, making covers is very expensive, even not so professional ones :,)
@@YamAlbat idk about you but Cover is at the end of the day a Japanese company and a Tech company on top of that, they have the connections but not the Pockets,
@@squalleonkeneddyheart4191 Cover seems to support the talents but they do not hand out blank checks. They provide an identity and some behind-the-scenes resources, and the fans provide money and ideas/requests. Amelia is a good example from EN, the way she continued to reinvest in herself and tried to innovate in her channel content. She's not afraid to throw money at new things, and she's also able to drop unsustainable projects. Thanks to her there were extra character models, the VR collabs, even that teaser video before their debut in HoloFes.
@@YamAlbat If you have a really good idea you should still try to get it out there. A certain someone got many millions of views with a mix of Insomnia, Depression and Audacity (both actual and just the software). What's important is seeking your identity and putting out content to get real feedback. Obviously many others are also doing this, but being too hesitant is the same as just letting someone else win a marathon. At least do a little practice jogging before you worry about hiring a personal trainer.
I find it interesting that even in big big agencies some vtubers probably didn't know how successful it would have been until they really saw it. Pomu for example had a real job when she started. Rosemi also had an internship. Both likely could have decided to stick with that over a full time vtuber if they wanted
Wow I didn't know that! It's definitely hard to trust the youtube algorithm to give you your revenue, especially when you don't know how successful you'll be or how long it will last. I know several Hololive members are college students too!
@@YamAlbat yeah. Mumei is I think
Toxic reactions to Gura's family Christmas meeting is just plain heart aching ...
For real… I’ve heard other VTubers say that they’re going to be streaming on Christmas to avoid those claims by their fans (mostly on the JP side)
What happened? What was the reaction?
@@schwarzschaz
From context of these comments (I personally had no idea this was happening), it looks like they were mad she decided to spend Christmas with family instead of doing a stream.
I kind of understand it for Japan. Where some people are lonely in Christmas's and some are that selfish to wish for their streamer to do kind of the same, or wish their favorite streamer to stream so they are not alone.
Not sure if it was Japanese people though. Lonely people are everywhere, it is just that Latin Americans tend to understand family first, and the US are also open minded. I might be wrong though.
Excellent presentation and breakdown! Taking breaks or cancelling streams is definitely super stressful from the creator side. I would even say the bar keeps getting higher, as now we even need shorts/clips/tiktoks etc to also stay relevant. I see a growing trend from Niji of getting clippers hired for their talents' channels now.
Also - Even the pressure that others are getting artwork/skebs done like "everyone else" also puts a stress on budgeting and eats into the sustainability. Or just "keeping up on trends/twitter trends" is a time eater as well, which takes away from "creation" time to stay on top of things.
There's SO MUCH that we could go over on the topic, but great job starting the discussion!!
Those are aspects of VTuber culture I didn't initially think about, but now that you brought them up, I do agree with you! The pressure to have new content in all forms on all platforms is a lot to keep up with!
One perspective I've regularly thought about is that there's only so much 'content' you can do as a Vtuber compared to a regular streamer. You can't exactly vlog or show precise reactions, tours, and activities as a Vtuber as compared to a regular streamer.
So, vtubers have to excel in what they CAN do which comes to the singing, dancing (3d), ASMR, gaming etc which imo creates a niche bunch of limited activities..
Since anyone can slap an avatar (even a PNG) on and technically call themselves a Vtuber and stray away from almost all social norms and potential hurt that may avail by them showing their face, and with the growing popularity. Aand since limited activities + oversaturation of Vtubers..
The potential number of Vtubers out there as compared to regular streamers is gonna slowly collide and sooner, more 'hybrids' will appear - rpr, CookieSwirlC etc..
Point is, I feel like the potential for a 'pure' Vtuber trying to excel in this industry would be immensely tough firstly due to the oversaturation of talents, available content, fanbase and yeah. This brings about immense stress and since you're behind an avatar. Viewers are not able to accurately spot signs or points where it hurts.
Just my 3 cents..
That's also why I love Vtuber communities. The bonds that people create are really wholesome and it really is fresh
Thank you for giving your 3 cents! With the limitations of VTubers comes the enginuity of the community to make certain things possible. Take Ironmouse's tour of Japan, she had a friend walk around Japan for her live, making it almost like a vlog! Mixed reality streamers like Oni Giri and Kson also broaden the possibilities of where we can see virtual avatars used in internet content.
That being said, the VTuber community is very tight knit and participating in traditions and trends is very common, leading to oversaturation of a lot of aspects of it. The best thing to do is for a creator to determine what traditions and trends make sense for their brand, but find their own unique content to branch off into, thus toeing the line of being a VTuber while also bringing fresh content to the scene!
Being fair, there are plenty of Twitter feuds and backbiting/petty infighting. Especially among the Indie 2views desperate to find a spotlight.
I like what the shork said: Just stream. Just start streaming. Don't waste a bunch of time on prep, when first starting out you need to just do it so you can find out who you are.
@@akira8393 Without naming names, this has been a really big issue with people who start on Twitter before they are ready to begin streaming.
Sometimes they burn themselves out or bankrupt themselves with unneeded prep and advertising, I've even seen video ads on YT for new channels.
Almost worse, sometimes they establish this persona through tweets that they cannot actually match up to during live streams.
vTubing is a character persona, but often so is cam streaming. You gotta know how you act in front of an audience, build on your actual performance.
Your concerns about the tech are very valid. People worry about quality assets, meanwhile there's this EN hammerhead with buggy eye tracking and loading screens in crayon.
Money problems aside, streaming related health problems can arise because parasocial goes both ways. They give too much of themselves to their supporters.
It's sad whenever a vtuber has to take a break and they feel the need to apologize a bunch and sometimes still try to squeeze a stream in during their time off or smth like that :(
I agree. They should not apologize for taking breaks. It is a basic human need. It's like apologizing for drinking water!
@6:54 I'm worried about Calli as well. She's constantly putting out music on top of her streaming. I remember her saying she doesn't get much sleep because she's so busy.
I know there's going to be a point where she announces she has to take a long leave because she's been working herself to hard.
It's hard to talk about this on social media because fans will be like "she said she's fine and not to worry so stop spreading fear!" Of course they're going to say there fine and not to worry.
Calli is very much a workaholic. I admire her as a content creator but I too hope that she can learn from her friend takanashi kiara and take some time to see the world. I remember recently seeing that Calli flew to japan, recorded 4 songs, and immediately left Japan instead of sight seeing. I hope she finds merit in "smelling the roses" as she continues on her content creation journey!
Calli is an unusual situation, because she is still active as her old persona, even performing and recording music, in addition to everything she does as Calli. She basically lives two lives.
@@Zeta1127 she also does live concerts too, and sometimes streams as her OG persona/self.
@@DarthABBA And what makes it extra weird is that she's signed to her record label not as her IRL self, but specifically as the Hololive-owned creation "Mori Calliope". She's at least been able to get some game industry work as herself, and she'll always have a place on the convention circuit...so at least she'll be fine whenever she decides she's done being Mori.
aaaaaand this is exactly why I'm determined to stream for myself and no one else, and have it stated all over my streaming-associated accounts. I'm not trying to make it my job, I'm not trying to make any money from it, I don't want to _be_ a "content creator," I simply enjoy the act of streaming as a vtuber in and of itself. no schedule, no plans, no effort other than what is fueled by my own interest and excitement.
Sounds like the best possible way to go about it! Thanks for sharing! I wish you the best with your future streaming endeavors!
Each have their own pros and cons.
honestly if their full time job is vtubing, streaming 2-3 hours a day or every other day is actually very sustainable people just gotta take better care of themselves physically at least the mental stress is another story.
I agree with that statement. I too used to stream 2 hours every week day during the pandemic when I was unemployed.
The challenge comes when you take into account that VTuber content at the agency level is a lot more than just streaming. I listed all the other duties outside of streaming that an agency VTuber may have. Not to mention that if you're not earning enough from streaming, you'll be working part time or full time to cover your living expenses. Add the fact that school is a factor for many talents and you've got yourself a recipe for losing sleep and never taking breaks.
@@YamAlbat oo thanks for the follow up i was worried what i said was a bit of a hot take and would get people mad,
but your right if they have school and or work as well that would be way too much stuff on their plate also i think all the youtube management with thumbnails and artwork coould just be done by the company if they wanted them too mm idk.
Thanks!
Don't be afraid to give your opinion on my videos. I asked for discussion and I'm happy to have them!
Thanks for being respectful~🧡
There’s a lot a streamer needs to do offline aside from streaming though like preparing content/streams, networking, for smaller vtubers this could be making videos/clips of their own streams etc. some are artists beside Vtubing and all of those things can become overwhelming quickly
Great video. I think you hit the nail on the head when referring to Japanese work culture- but I'd say it's more in line with idol/celebrity culture than corporate work structure. In idol culture, all the talents know they have a very limited time in the spotlight- most debut in their early teens and retire in their early twenties, if they are successful. So they work their butts off doing albums, concerts, appearances, selling merch etc... to get the most out of their time in the spotlight. The anime movie "Perfect Blue" highlights this a little bit in an overly dramatic way. Some of it does come from the idol management companies but the performers drive themselves too, it's not all the companies fault. Ironically, vtubing has given a way for some current and former idols to continue their career after the time they'd normally expect to leave entertainment and get "real" jobs. I think (Japanese) vtubing is so new and so driven by idol culture the talents feel that same need to do as much as they can while they can- that might change as the genre grows and develops its own identity, but for now that Japanese standard of working on as much content as possible is driving the majority of the industry at the moment.
Great insight! I am not very well versed in the nuances of idol culture myself, VTuber spaces are the first time I've really heard it discussed. I really appreciate you taking the time to give me some more background on the topic. I can totally see how VTuber culture aligns with that mentality!
FYI, Idols/celebrity counts as workers too. It's an overall Japanese people's work culture, especially if you take the agencies into consideration because an agency also works in a general corporate business model.
@@KhoiruunisaRF it will be interesting to see how the VTuber work environment changes. We are still essentially in the first generation of vtubers, by generate I mean as in cultural generation, usually divided up by decade. The idea of vtubing and streaming in general is still pretty new. We are watching the growth of a whole new industry, one where interactivity between the performers and the audience is encouraged and monetized. Just look at how much the film industry has changed just the last 20 years. It makes it difficult to predict how vtubing will change going forward, especially since it's an industry with a relatively low cost to break into and compete in.
Really liked the video. The examples you showed make sense and the solutions could work for lots of cases. But i think it implies some problems are caused by agencies or the VTuber culture, when there's another more plausible explanation.
Every streamer fears not having an audience when they take a break, not just VTubers. All big streamers do tons of work outside the stream, XqC might not be making his own album on the side but he's busy doing sponsored stuff, setting up events and other things outside the stream. All big streamers get like that.
All the big 3 agencies you mention have examples that contradict the part about over demanding schedules like Ayame for Holo, Gilzaren for Niji and Hime for VShojo. I think it's easy to think everything is a VTuber problem when you're looking at streaming from a VTuber perspective, but sometimes it's just a streaming problem.
Thank you for the feedback! I do come from a VTuber-only background. This comment shows a bit of my bias, seeing that I don't watch many non-VTuber streamers. I appreciate the perspective 🧡
I mean for Hololive, we have the EN side where a good chunk of their members only stream for 4-6 times a week (as low as 3 times in some instances), in contrast to the JP side where the ones like Pekora stream everyday, and sometimes in very long stretches. Hell, Kiara has been outspoken trying to get the JP members to slow down and take vacation breaks, and now that some of the JP talents have needed to take breaks due to vocal issues caused by extensive streaming schedules they're starting to see the EN branch wisdom of pacing themselves. And as mentioned by Guilguis, we have talents like Ayame who don't really stream very often, sometimes disappearing for weeks at a time.
Of course, Hololive is busy in ways that don't involve streaming, since we know they also work on stuff like promotions, recording, voice acting, personal projects, the occasional dance lessons for upcoming events, etc. So it's demanding, but not in the "you need to stream everyday!" kind of demanding (Cover Corp's audition conditions explicitly state that the minimum needed for streaming is 3 times a week, and we've seen talents go AWOL for longer), since as the talents themselves have pointed out that drive is more out of them not wanting to see their numbers drop and their audiences leave.
yes and vocal issues sometimes happen with singers that not uncommon.
Yeah is more of a streaming problem than just a vtuber problem but mix this with japanese work culture and you May had a serious problem for for example fubuki and korone from hololive are one of the most constant vtubers and also stream for long periods of time, they were asked by management to take a rest because if they continue like that it could be bad for their health. At least in the EN side people are more concious about the how significant could be taking a rest but japan is far away from that but it seems is changing maybe not as fast as we wanted but changing
I'd dare to say that even as a fan this hobby is unsustainable XD At least I see it that way because I love these vtubers and i want to be there when they stream and support them but they're so many and streaming for so long that you can't catch up with them. You can even have the burnout if you dont control it. I think it would be better and healthier for ALL of us both the vtubers and their audiences if they just slow down a bit and take constant rests.
I just started binge watching vtubers and upon looking at their schedules I was already surprised that they even stream till the weekends. Thats tiring not just to your vocals but also to your body and mind.
As someone who used to stream 3-4 days a week I totally agree. Some talents even plan more than 7 streams a week. Elira Pendora and Laplus Darkness are two that come to mind, but I'm sure there are others who tend to book their schedule this packed.
@@YamAlbat Yeah... I feel bad that they have to stream that much every single day. Streamers tend to neglect themselves for the sake of what they are doing. I mean its a job but they should be a little disciplined too in terms of taking care of themselves.
Note: Mysta is sick rn too 😭 plus seeing this video that a lot of other vtubers are the same... Men... Its like digging your own grave.
Oh no! wishing mysta a speedy recovery! Streaming can be very demanding!
Enlisted Men: "Heh, hold my M60 for 30km"
I mostly get concerned and weirded out by vtubers who do "drunk chatting" streams.
I think this is a similar problem when the topic of "Crunch" was being talked about in video game development, or when a similar conversation was happening with the anime industry, or almost any other industry for that matter.
There is always the issue of management poorly managing their employees/talent's working hours of course, but one issue I don't remember coming up as a topic, when discussing the issue of Crunch, is, what happens if, your boss doesn't make anyone work overtime and/or manages the workload so that such overtime isn't needed, but, you have a coworker, or in the case of Vtuber agencies, other talents, that are both willing, and do put in the overtime anyway.
I think most people would agree, it would be wrong if both management and/or the fan base, didn't reward the one who put in the extra hours, be it, higher pay or a bigger growth, but when that happens, the standard is now upped, and the other workers and talents, who also want to get the same thing as the other worker, to then put in extra hours, which will then continue the cycle, until the level of work becomes unsustainable, and leads to burnout and fatigue.
I think in the Vtuber community, this could be more the case because each Vtuber, whether they are indie or work for an agency, are in a sense, competing with every other Vtuber in existence.
I don't really know how to solve this issue, but I think it is something that at least should be discussed.
You hit the nail on the head. I totally agree!
This sure hits home with how much of holoEN has had to take a break or adopt a lighter streaming schedule in recent months. Kiara's the most consistent streamer in the branch atm and even she said she'll take a month-long break next year...
And of course THOSE parts of the fandom hate them for it and are constantly calling them lazy. i think part of that issue is a point i don't see brought up much: about the only people who have the time to regularly watch even just 1 or 2 active agency vtubers' streams are kids and NEETs, and vtubing in general has made a major pivot from the short-form videos of the peak Kizuna Ai days to streaming as its dominant content model. This means you're going to primarily cater to exactly the sort of entitled audiences most prone to causing online drama, when your job forces you to be Extremely Online as well and thus makes it harder to avoid that mess. We've seen with cases like Mori how online hate can genuinely affect a creator, and that's just the ones who let themselves show it publicly!
Part of why things went in this direction, of course, is that you can get a lot of money out of a few people with nothing else going on in their lives, and that's not just a streaming phenomenon; think of how the latest console generation has upped their prices to the point where the average person might as well just get an acceptable PC instead. There's a notion that with the internet creating so much competition for entertainment, you can't grow your audience too much so it's better to focus on maximizing profits from the hardcore audience you *do* have. That's a whole other conversation in itself, of course, but i think that's at play with at least some of this overworking...
This analysis is amazing… have you considered making video essays yourself? You’d be good at it! You’ve honestly opened my mind to how it would be to have a job completely reliant on keeping strangers on the internet happy with you. Really gave me some food for thought!
As someone who's attempting to break into streaming as a VTuber, I understand the pain.
I currently work a full time job and I often have to cancel or delay streams and get behind on social media, editing, ect due to exhaustion. I can only afford to do so because I have another income: even if it's the core problem.
However my approach to VTubing seems to be quite different than the typical VTuber: I'm aiming for more of a RUclipsr style of content. I'm not attempting a high voice, or trying to play a character; I am playing up my personality but I'm not feeling forced to do anything but "have energy". I'm also not portraying myself as a cute anime girl with no real person behind her: I am me, my VTuber is me, and I am my VTuber.
And honestly, I think that agencies aren't that great. It seems to me that you're paying them consistent residuals for a mere start up cost: which is, if you think about it, not a good deal. You do not need a fancy, thousand dollar model to START. And if you're still expected to hire editors, plan content, and manage social media, then wouldn't it be better to just... Hire someone to do those for you ince you're big enough? You'd be losing similar amounts of money, but have to do less work.
Very well put 💛
Thank you Tomoya for taking the time to watch my video! I'm a fan of your content, especially your music! Wishing you and the rest of TsunDream all the best 🧡💫
A good topic to raise and thank you kindly for making this video. This is a topic that I've been discussing and thinking about a lot over the past year or so, so I have a bit of stuff to say, so apologies in advance. I think the combination of the algorithm rewarding quantity, as well as the at times both rational and irrational fear of losing audience when taking a break, the Japanese work culture given that Vtubing started its rise in Japan, the overall that high of not wanting to stop because work is fun and thus not having enough work life balance, as well as the precedent set by forerunners on what the 'formula for success' is.
One thing is that Vtubing is now settling into the problems that have plagued many parts of the online entertainment industry (be it RUclipsrs or streamers) for years. Ever since 2020 (arguably before but definitely as COVID set in), Vtuber society and culture has experienced a rising surge but that means that at some point, you get oversaturation, you get high bars to reach and you get a lot of the stuff that many RUclipsrs have talked about regarding how entertainment as a job is unforgiving. Vtubers have it more visible and in different forms I think, but burnout and inability to rest and all that are things that have plagued online entertainers for at this point at least a decade.
There's definitely a lot of things behind the scenes, whether projects or whether preparations for streams. But I think the important thing is that just because work is fun, doesn't mean you don't need to rest. I've seen that in big Vtubers and even indies that I follow (and routinely nag at to rest properly). Vtubers are often normal people who get into it and not professionals trained to identify things like rest and other aspects that would affect their work. Not saying that Vtubers should be trained or anything but I find that creative folk in general (not all but there's a good majority) have a hard time setting limits on work and life. It doesn't help that because of the precedents set, fans also consciously or unconsciously have that expectation of Vtubers as well. I don't think I know that many streamers that haven't already made that their full time job who stream as often as the average Vtuber to be honest (I don't watch a lot of streamers but even then I know that 3 times a week is already quite a bit if someone isn't doing it as a full time job).
As for Japanese work culture, I don't think that's as much the root as just Japanese or even Asian culture in general, where children are fed the notion from young that they always have to strive for better. For some, it's in tune with their personalities already and for others it's just something they've come to accept as the norm. So as adults, you have a whole cluster of individuals whose idea of success is hustle hustle hustle. Don't stop until you drop. We hear a lot about Japanese work culture but really it's not just the work and it's not just Japan. There's a larger scale issue of how society as a whole, even outside Asian culture, tends to focus on productivity 24/7.
At the end of the day, expectations and how to communicate those expectations are possibly the most important thing in a scenario like this. It is definitely on fans to call out toxic behavior and also to be aware of behaviors that may stem from goodwill but may not impart goodwill. However, it is also on a content creator to communicate proper expectations to their fans. If you go into content creation thinking you'll never need to manage an audience, then that's naivete. How things are communicated is very important. The saying 'the fanbase reflects the Vtuber' has some truth in the sense that what you say or don't say influences what audiences may or may not do, even if different content/personalities attract different groups of people. And if you think that just because work is fun you don't need to rest, that's irresponsible to yourself and to your viewers. Unless they are toxic, a lot of viewers would rather their talent take a bit of rest than keep on pushing till they break. It's optimistic to say that 'oh if people leave, you're just filtering out the toxicity'. That's not entirely true but it does mean that those left will be the most loyal.
The fear of losing audience (and income let's be real) is not unwarranted nor can it be just waved away as some might like to just by saying "oh you don't have to feel that way". The unfortunate reality is that a lot of content creators do feel that way and saying that their emotions aren't needed doesn't help. BUT at the same time, it is true that content creators also need to make a decision for themselves on the path to take. If you want to make this a job or achieve bigger projects etc, you're going to have to cater to the algorithm to some level at least until you get a sizeable enough audience. If you want to do it for leisure, then be okay with taking breaks as well.
I know a lot of small business owners and I've seen them work day in night out when first setting up the business. Honestly entertainment especially as an indie is a business venture. That's the reality of things and it's something GirlDM has mentioned as well. You need to be able to understand both what's needed but also where your limits are, otherwise you either don't get far enough or you crash and burn.
tl;dr: Vtubers and the community need to set and have reasonable expectations; Work is work, whether or not it's fun and breaks should be taken; Hustle culture is ingrained in modern society, we need to stop buying into the productivity fable without second thought; know your limits, you're not superhuman.
i can't imagine how difficult it must be for talents to find a work-life balance that they're comfortable with while also trying to maintain growth momentum. it's also hard as a fan trying to find the healthy middleground between encouraging talents to rest without coming across as pushy or babying or being a worrywart. but i will say that it's always so heartwarming seeing a liver ask their fanbase if they would be okay with a break or a rest and seeing overwhelming support and tons of messages saying that the fans will wait patiently for their return, and an outpouring of fan art during their time off. i know the vocal minority that demands a constant grind from their oshis can be deafening, but the fact that the majority of fans are happy to wait so that the living breathing human being behind the model can be healthy is reassuring. ;w;
Agreed. As a korone fan I always want to ask her to consider stopping at the 8 hour mark for streams, but I know that those comments annoy her, so I do not send them. I'm glad she's been deciding to take more breaks for herself though!
@@YamAlbat yeah, i feel that. i think my oshi really overworked himself trying to reach 100k and it was pretty hard seeing how exhausted he was getting around that time, but sometimes rooting for someone is the only thing you can do, even when you're really worried about them. that's why ganba is my go-to word lmfao
(also thankfully he took a well-deserved vacation after he reached his 100k goal and now he seems a lot more relaxed and is willing to take time off when he's sick instead of trying to stream through it. i guess lots of livers are kind of stubborn in that way hahaha)
I've been the stubborn liver myself so I understand. I'm sure the stubbornness only gets easier to fall into when you have a big audience to stream to.
@@YamAlbat lmfaoo well then ganba to you too, and i look forward to seeing more of your content! o7
Thank you for supporting my content and adding to the discussion~♡
This is so true, I thought about it and after the limelight of being a Vtuber I started to think of the various downsides and realized that I wasn’t something I wanted to do. After all the scheduling and sleepless nights I would have faced it would have really wrecked me physically and mentally, my heart goes out to all of you Vtubers who continue doing what you do, but PLEASE, be taking care of yourself there isn’t enough money in this world that should overvalue your personal health, I know it’s not that easy and maybe finances are a priority but Please, don’t be so on fire that you burn yourself out, we love all of your streams and content but if you’re so sick that it hurts to stream we’d rather you take a break and step back for a bit. We Love You All and we’re always looking forward to your content, Love you guys long time and stay doing what you guys do. 😄❤️
Burnout is real! I hope the work life balance continues to get better! Thanks for sharing your insight!
Dude...it didn't even cross my mind that faking your voice for hours at a time everyday would damage your throat badly??? I did not realize how much work it takes... Ty for this video
This is why pochi iida decided to redebut with a new model where she now use her regular voice instead of the old high pitched one before.
I saw that! I wish Pochi-mama all the best with her rebrand! Loved her new model~
Her "old voice" was a made with voice software, she used it because she was afraid of doxxing, so health problems with her voice wasn't really a concern as far as I know
And it was the best choice possible
there should be a dedicated team to support each talents so during preparation, talents can take a rest while the team works for the preparation. talents can add feedback since theyre going to be the one putting the idea in front of audiences but in the end, its about putting less burden on the talents
That sounds like a good idea. I hope an organization like this takes off someday! Thank you for sharing your thoughts
Honestly one of the biggest takeaways I've gathered at least from watching hololive and Nijisanji vtubers is just how much of a toll it takes on them. Sure, they make perhaps lifelong friends and have some once in a lifetime experiences but they often end up having to deal with health problems or mental stress that causes them to take a hiatus for it. I see many tweets of how tired they are, or their sleep schedule is messed up due to travel, collabs etc.
From a viewer's perspective, I want vtubers to stream less for my sake. Fewer, shorter, more unique videos and streams is what I'd prefer to see across the board. It's way too much to sift through otherwise.
Agreed. I rely on taggers, clippers, and news channels to keep up with the VTubers I want to watch Otherwise it's too much even to just keep up with one let alone a handful!
@@YamAlbat I use clips to choose which vods to watch as timezones are not my friend and I'm subbed to many. Most go live in the really early am for me.
I have now mastered play syncing 2 vods so I can see 2 perspectives.
Agreed a lot of people forget creators people to. I make it a point to remember their human and I worry about the creators I follow and want them to take breaks
Hearing this makes me really happy for my guys as a streamer, but also hope that that the industry learns from the past and can grow
I typically stay away from news-type/drama channels, but I believe this is a worthwhile topic.
I'm sure this must've been in the works for possibly months. I'm not sure how to convey how big this video is; just know I see you, good job.
13:42 the ending esspecially.
Just like an actual research/argumentative paper stating how you/relevant people can make a change.
Ahh thank you so much! This was actually my first video essay and I had no clue what I was doing. It took around a month to make from start to finish. I am still honing my skills in the genre, but I am thankful that RUclips deemed my content worthy of their algorithm so early into my career. Thank you for your kind words and for supporting my content with your comment!
I've never actively followed a Vtuber, since where I come from watching a Vtuber/streamer is see either weird or just like simping for a moving model on the screen (like many players do nowadays on gacha games or fighting games), but when I first discodered this type of content creator I was interested in the idea of having your own digital avatar to use for videos or streaming. I already tried creating my own model and still strugling with that, since I'm not able to draw and I lack of 3d modeling skills (basically I'm using a free software to do so an tryng to edit some textures to make my avatar unique and not so "flat") and seeing this video shows me that the way I intended practicing this thing as a hobby wasn't so bad at all: creating something on my own and having my own schedule may be the right way to have an audience, which could be of less than a hundred viewers or more (I don't care about the numbers honestly, I only need people who shares my interests to be part of a live show). It's very interesting to know that many other talents struggle by their own or because of their contract: since that shows how to behave as a content creator (take your time, but don't leave people wait too long; use your skill to be attractive, but don't overuse them otherwise you could get hurt). I'll stick to my plan of just stream when I can, what I want and the way I want and if people don't like my roleplay, I'm not gonna bother that much because that means that I'm not the guy.
PS: btw I'm making a male model, since I'm honest, I wanna show an alter ego, instead of acting like an e-girl and use a vaice filter, cause that's lame and disrespectful
I'm a German Vtuber and our niche is far more unknown than it is in the anglophone corner of the internet.
We basically only have two real agencies, one of which is fairly small in reach, and the other only has 3 members with around 60-200 viewers average.
Thus we're pretty much all indies, but even then, the pressure is immense. People get into arguments all the time because there's this feeling that everyone just wants to leech off other people. There's tons of little squabbles at all times.
And people feel like they can never stop - if you're gone for a week, half of your viewers basically forget you ever existed.
I was on holiday once for a week and averaged around 15 viewers back then, when I returned, only my mod, who's also a very good friend, came to my first stream after the break.
That was tough.
I've tried to grind and did my best and now I'm at 20-30 again, usually, and I fear that if I stop, I'll be forgotten again.
It's happened to most of us at this point at least once
I'm currently on winter break so yeah, scary.
Yam, thank you so much for putting out this video. For a while I've been doing my own thinking about the work culture and it has hit me on how demanding the workload is. I agree too that this resonates for content creation as a whole, but vtuber culture has it worse because we are expected to be multi-talented. I am glad I am not along in thinking this much and hard about trying to slow things down but yet inevitably speeding things up. Once again thank you so much for putting it out!
Thank you for saying so! It is truly hard to curb your enthusiasm for the grind as a creator. I've had to actively work on pacing myself as a creator who tries to dabble in everything. Choosing a single focus (making videos) has helped me a lot!
Seeing all the clips in the opening montage, I never realized how often big vtubers need breaks for physical recuperation!
Same here! The research I did for this video was very eye opening!
This was an excellent analysis. Although it's sad, I appreciate that you went this route to show that being a VTUBER isn't all sunshine and rainbows; and that like with everything else there are issues that need addressing!
When I consume content (of all types, not just VTubing) sometimes I don't stop to think about what goes on behind the scenes and just take the content at face value, so I feel a lot of other people are the same way... I also wouldn't find it much of a stretch that notice of this escapes some of the content creators who've gotten lost in the grind as well. That being said, the first step to any change is awareness, and this video raises just that!
I'm hoping that your video leads to more people realizing what an issue this is and gains traction! It definitely deserves it!
In my mind, this video raises an interesting question: "If you have to continuously put yourself out there because you are afraid your audience might leave if you take a break, is it one worth having?"
Of course, views aren't owed, nothing is in life, but... Investing all this time, energy, and money into something only to have people leave (or fear of them leaving), that's got to be a massive mental drain and you have to question at what point does it stop being worth it.
Interestingly, when you brought up that "when one ends stream, it's pretty easy for a fan to find a similar one that is streaming and suits their taste" (paraphrasing a bit), it reminded me of and backs up my belief in how you are right you are about striving to not follow a formula/trying to be unique. I think if you follow a formula then you will always end up being replaceable in the consciousness of the majority, whereas if you are doing something unique, there won't be other options for them to go to when you end stream and they'll be thinking of you while waiting for you to stream again (a bit dark of a take).
That said, I'm pretty optimistic overall, because I feel like a lot of Vtubers have their core members as well, who stick by them through thick and thin (might be 3 to 5 people or 10 to 30 depending on size), so it isn't like all fans/viewers do naturally forget or don't care. I just meant that I feel the striving to be unique does have more benefit to it in the long run! (struggled a bit to word my thoughts on the last two paragraphs, hope that comes across right).
But yeah, great video and looking forward to the next one as always~
I appreciate reading your analysis as always, a lot of good additions! This grind mindset (grindset) isn't specific to VTubers alone but the need to constantly be learning all these skills and managing such a widespread brand makes it intense to say the least. To anyone looking to become a VTuber I reccomend they take inspiration from outside sources in addition to their favorite VTubers, and be conscious of the pressure so that it may not get to them as easily.
Thank you for bringing attention to this topic. Another point I would like to add is that staff may also be victims of burnout if the company mentality is to grind 24/7. While HoshiLive is just one smaller agency, we try our best to prioritize streamer and staff wellbeing, to avoid the very issue you mentioned. Not only is it the right thing to do in our opinion, but it seems to be the better long-term strategy for VTuber agencies going forward. VShojo, for example, is gaining a lot of talents who were formerly from other agencies like Hololive, because they (seemingly) offer better work conditions for their talents.
This video is a good reminder to not push oneself too hard, and that it's okay to take a break every so often. Your true fans will understand, and will be there when you return 💜
Thank you for the reply Hoshilive! I am happy to hear that your team prioritizes talent and staff wellbeing. That is the best business model an agency can have!
Holo is not a great example because one streamer explored other options for a year before giving up and joining, and the more recent one was fired out of a cannon.
Vsho may need to learn some more harsh lessons yet about managing talents and maintaining a healthier social media environment. Not hoping for any bad outcomes but the aggression and rebelliousness can make them unpredictable partners
what a real video 😭😭💜 thank you.. I suffered from burnout and quitting but I returned with a more positive focus and a clear mindset on my schedule now!
An informative, thought-provoking, and all-around excellent video. Though I find myself merely enjoying various Vtubers on a regular basis, I rarely think deeply about what the talents themselves sacrifice on a daily basis in order to bring their avatars to life. Thanks for shining some light on these issues, and I hope that the talents behind our favorite Vtubers, whether corporate or indie, can advocate for themselves and create an environment that doesn't burn them out.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I agree with you. I think that if there is a shift in work environment and attitude, these issues will be less common!
This was disconcerting to learn about but I'm really glad you made this video. I think I need to go pay more love to the vtubers I follow now! And support more just in general, hah.
The grind culture in content creation, especially in VTubing, is a big part of the reason why despite wanting to try it for myself, I never really tried. I already have health issues, doing all this work would probably send me straight to hospital if it's so hard for relatively healthy individuals with company support...
Very interesting video!
I personally think that if you start vtubing o streaming in general with the expectation of making this your job and make a living out of this from the beggining then you are doing it wrong. I think that one must start making content for themself and take it easy and with no hurries, try to find the type of content and personality you feel the most comfortable with and then find a balance with your real life activities and your streams.
I think trying to force yourself and your content will make you end burning out and full of stress.
Couldn't agree with you more here! Casual content creation with little expectation is the way to go if you want to maintain a healthy relationship with your channel. I am trying to strike that balance as a hobbyist myself!
Really appreciate the wholesome messages you share in all your videos Yam!!
Thank you so much! Some of my videos at have bleaker undertones like this one, but I always want to try to leave my videos off on a good note!
I feel like the consequences in this video highlited Nene's first year, but Nene was able to work around them and get more time for herself! Sheesh, she even goes out to the mountains to catch bugs on her free time during summer!
From my perspective of someone who’s only seen monosuzu nene from clips and in holofes 3, she strikes me as someone who wants to be in hololive more than anything in the world. She seems so happy to be there performing for all of us, and her enthusiasm may be why she struggles to take breaks. Her enthusiasm for vtuber idols is contagious and inspiring!
Firstly, the video was interesting and will help getting people to consider these things. There's definitely a lot to unbox in terms of vtubing and internet entertainment culture. And it won't always be the same either. One of the agencies I follow 774inc. has had a lot of vtubers since they split off and became their own agency. All quitting for their own reasons. There are health reasons of course (the agency isn't big enough that you could go full time soon after debuting so overwork could be very real), however a couple of them entered the agency with pre-existing conditions. One of them was a vtuber before entering the agency, but I didn't follow them that much until she was a part of 774 inc. Following a couple of graduations left me thinking that they just moved on to greener pastures. Then there are a couple who just didn't really want (or couldn't) do the idol thing anymore. One case in particular is interesting. Souya Ichika is still a part of 774 inc. but just left the Animare idol group. 774 inc's idol activities are on the lesser side, getting 2-4 live shows a year depending on who you follow within the agency. So maybe stopping just the idol part is more simple for them than say Hololive JP. Though I think this is a new thing for 774 inc. too as well. As before I think they were more likely to let them go independent like one of their other talents in another group. After writing all this down I'm not sure where I was going with it, but I guess I'm trying to say the topic of graduation and overwork is an interesting one. I've seen graduations from legal problems more than once now after all. Sadly there's not much we can do but speculate, and at a certain point that can be unhealthy too. Hopefully there's a bright future for the new media we all love.
Thank you so much for taking the time to share your insight! I will definitely check that group out!
Honestly, I believe that internet jobs like these can be very helpful for people with underlying health conditions, but it's also much easier to overwork at an online job you love! There isn't that barrier of a physical place you go to keeping you from burning the late night oil so to speak.
Brilliant video. They work these tubers to the BONE
As a person who vtubed for many months with an unnaturally high voice that I'd been using for many years before i even started vtubing. It SEVERELY damages your throat. I have permanent damage to my throat because of all the time that i used this voice. When you do voices make sure you're doing them safely. Aka, don't do them for long periods of time, take rests, drink water, and make sure the voice you're doing isn't scratching your throat when you're doing it.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I am so sorry that happened. As someone who tried a character voice in my streams in the beginning, I knew I just couldn't keep it up. I hope your voice recovers over time.
@@YamAlbat thank you
really good video!!! This is a super important topic and one a lot of people need to see imo. thanks for makin this
Thank you for the support!
Thank you, this was very informational.
VTubers like you are actually my favorite type of VTubers together with the singers like at RIOT.
I dislike streams. I value my time and like well-prepared videos full of content. A pill of content made to be short and complete. If you instead made a 3h long stream on this topic instead of 15mins long video, I wouldn't even bother clicking it. I'm not some NEET or a student with lots of time and I can't play streams in the background while working, as I need to avoid distractions during my work.
Streams are supposed to offer a way to interact with the streamer in real time, but with 30+ active people on the chat, it's already pointless. It can't be even called interaction. Streamers like that might as well get replaced by Neuro-sama, that is, if Neuro actually had her own personality.
I really don't understand why streams are so popular... It's going for length instead of quality... And people were supposed to have short focus span...
Yet again another banger video.
Thank you!
most vtuber: take break for medical reason
ayame: take break cos she forgot to pay her internet service
Wow Yam!!!! I swear the algorithm is wired in my brain because every time I think about taking steps into being a Vtuber, a video of yours pops up and always makes me think my plans (not in a bad way)! Just on how can I pursue this as a healthy hobby and not get swept up in trends/idol culture. I just want to stream lol
Another great Video!!!! 💛
Hey thanks for taking the time to say so! I hope your endeavors as a content creator go smoothly for you! 🧡✨
Taking breaks and cancelling streams when you know you're not up to it.
I had at least one week where I straight-up deleted the schedule that I posted initially bc, mentally, I wasn't up for it.
I like to think I'm glass half full guy/goose/duck daddi, but I seriously doubt any change will come from the top. Change from the top will only come once said change is more profitable than staying the same.
I firmly believe change can come from the bottom. Most of the vtubers out there in the community are Indie, if enough of them raise up and say, "No more. We wont operate like this, we are people with lives as well!" then change can come. No one person can be bigger than an agency, but as a collective, the possibility is there.
I totally agree with you! thank you for adding your insight!
As I was watching this video, I feel like I still have a lot to learn about vtubing and/or streaming in general. Especially as a 13 year old who wants to start streaming. Because of my age, joining an agency is out of the question, so I plan on making it on my own. Of course, I wouldn't be able to stream consistently because I am always so busy with life, so I would only stream a few times a month or none at all. But even so, I feel like I wouldn't really make it as far because I still wouldn't know what I'll have in store for my viewers and I feel like I wouldn’t be very interesting as an entertainer. So I wouldn’t really be able to do much aside from regular gameplay and drawing/chatting streams.
Overall, there's still a lot I have to keep in mind and a lot I have to study on if I ever want to start streaming, especially as a vtuber.
EDIT: Especially with my age, the stress and exhaustion that would normally come with vtubing will be much harder on me because I am much younger than the average VTuber. Agencies require their talents to be at least 18 to start activities, so most of their talents are older than that. Now think of the same issues that Vtubers mainly face, but instead on a still developing 13 year old.
The biggest advice I can give you is that Anonymity is your friend as a VTuber! Do it on a new account, and don't give ANY personal details. The internet is a scary place, so be sure to get your parents permission and maybe even get them involved for some family fun! And never put your VTuber activities over your health or school work! Good luck out there friend!
This is such an interesting video I loved it! I agree there is this kind of "hustle/grind" culture that a lot of vtubers have, and that I think comes from two things, at least for Vtubers that form part of an agency:
1. Japanese work culture (specially in companies like Hololive and Nijisanji). Even though these companies don´t want their Vtubers to burn out and are somewhat flexible (specially if the Vtuber is already sucessful), still the expectation of work is very high, and that expectation is fed by my second point, and that is...
2. The Vtuber´s own lack of workload management (overwork). The Vtubers usually set themselves with very very high goals and standards, but here´s the thing, the Vtubers don´t NEED to do so much, BUT since they want to reach their own expectations, management expectations and the fans expectations, they end up overworking themselves. Vtubers that NEED the money from a second job sadly have to overwork in order to continue their vtuber activities, but sucessful vtubers don´t necessarily have to, but the vast majority of them want to, Calliope Mori and Ouro Kronii from Hololive EN are the two examples that I´m most familiar with (the former being an artist in two separate personas besides her Vtuber work, and the latter being an active VA besides her Vtuber work)
Although I would like to point out that there are some Vtubers that do manage these things really well, and these are the usual Vtubers that you hear participating in multiple projects yet they seem to have days off and good quality sleep, of course they work a lot and some times when they have to overwork themselves for certain period of time to deliver (in special events, for example), but overall their health seems to be good or at least not declining or terrible (and this may be due to the particular Vtuber simply being more efficient at her work or not participating in as many projects as other Vtubers, I can´t say for sure).
That is my take on Vtubers that belong to an agency....
For indie Vtubers, this things can vary, some of them overwork themselves a lot, some of them continue to work or study normally besides being a vtuber. But the big takeaway from indie vtubers is this...
1. If an indie Vtuber wants to do a project they basically have to manage absolutely everything by themselves, of course, indies do smaller scale projects in comparison to agency vtubers, since they usually don´t have the money or the people to do bigger projects (or they will do bigger projects on the long term, contrary to agency vtubers that can do bigger projects in the short term)
2. Small indie Vtubers don´t have that much money or following to promote their work or to raise enough funds for their work, which once again make things more difficult.
Now, of course there are always exceptions, Vtubers like Saruei and Bao are sucessfull vtubers (they have a considerably large following for a vtuber, and can raise enough funds for their activities fairly quickly) and these two vtubers, even though they work really hard they take days off where they actually take the day off, and don´t have a set schedule or projects since they basically are the owners of their own brand, and once again these Vtubers will set very high goals and continue to hustle to deliver and reach their fans expectations and their own expectations, but I feel that in a more healthy way.
Sorry for the large comment, I got inspired lmao, if there is something someone disagrees with or needs clarification, feel free to comment!....
Also, I realized with the "hustle" culture a lot of Vtubers have I realized they want and have to become a "jack of all trades and master of all" to achieve their particular goals, and that will of course turn into overwork and burn out.... Anyways, take care y´all!
Wow thank you for taking the time to add your own analysis. It was very neat hearing a finer and more nuanced analysis than I gave in my video. I totally agree with you that the overwork really varies from creator to creator. I truly worry for the talents that try to keep up with an agency level demand of content and still do a second job on top of it. On the other hand, indies do have that choice to slow their pace, which is great. (So glad I'm making videos now instead of following a stream schedule myself.) There is a pattern that I see in the independent vtuber community, however. Indie VTubers themselves often expect agency level quality out of themselves even if no one is putting it on them! The amount of indie VTubers who feel the NEED to increase their schedule, learn another language, save up for that high quality model, do marathon streams, edit their own clips, and learn 5 other stream related skills off stream is wild. Especially when their goal is to join an agency, the grindset in the indie community can get very intense.
I like your scripts.
In general, I'm interested in informative content that lets me understand the vtuber space better. This is why I followed Depressed Nousagi, but with his type of content it was only a matter of time until he crashed. Additionally, he always had the angle of "one of us", a guy thirsting for animu girls.
Gladly, you're lacking that. I can get so much knowledge about the fabric this bubble of entertainment is made out of, it's so nice.
Of course, consuming content doesn't exist without a war on time, so I don't know how much I'm able to follow you, but yo, thanks for the things you do.
Hey thank you for the kind comment! I'm glad you're enjoying my content so far!
your channel is amazing meta-commentary on the industry as a whole. every video is really well edited and scripted. thank you for the work
Kson and Rushia example is not quite right in this case, they don't quit the agency because of burn out issue.
That aside, here are some important feedback for all talent agency out there...
Human normally don't speak for 3-5 hours a day, it's not strange if they hurt their throat or vocal cord. That is why professional singer have their own vocal cord therapy and training. Talent agency also need to realize, jam packing the streamer with streaming hours quota won't help with the burnt out in the long run.
It will fall under the quantity over quality trope. Anything that involved creativity and art need plenty of break time, it's not a textbook work. Our brain need to refill the dopamine by resting and taking a break.
This is why indie streamer, content creator, and freelancer tend to have better quality of life and heathy life mentally and physically. They also produce more stable quality stream and unique content.
Start threating your talents as human, not just money making machine, your company will have better brighter future.
i think the point with Rushia was that she was already a person dealing with serious mental illness and the corpo vtuber work culture & fandom both exacerbated that, leading to the kinds of decisions that get one fired! Also streamers developing parasocial relationships with their fans is a thing as well, that's another part of it with Rushia and i've seen that in both other corpo & indie vtubers as well
this is SUCH a good video. I was started to ask myself the same questions of when will it be enough for these vtubers. thank you for shedding light on such a dark aspect of vtubing that nobody likes to acknowledge. the video was well organized and easy to consume, so thank you!!
Ah thank you so much! This was my first video essay so I didn’t know how well it held up. Glad you enjoyed the video and got some value from it!
Vtubing as a lifestyle. The JP talents in particular seem to take that concept to a whole new level.
Very true. I worry for a lot of JP talents, especially in hololive!
Thank you for the review! It's very educational, and I should say I'm surprised that Kiryuu Coco is actually KSon! (I kinda have my guess, but still www)
Yeah, you maybe realized I'm not really into VTubers rabbit hole & it's more like a thing that interested me in a casual way. It's just I found some channels interesting and/or educative (like yours, for example) then decide to subscribe. As for the VTuber work culture, I think it's a thing that going on in the business industry overall but particularly in Japanese, so I hope they can get a healthier work environment soon!
I love more informative content like this, thank you very much for your effort!
Hey thank you for leaving a comment and supporting the channel! So sorry to spoil the coco to kson identity shift for you ahaha. Casual viewing is the best way to go about VTubers. If you treat them like any other creator you casually watch, you'll have a good experience! I do hope that work culture does improve for Japan in the future too!
I think this was a well put-together presentation on a problem I've also been noticing. You breakdown the issue well and make good use of specific examples. I think the introduction is downright chilling, seeing so many of these poor women try to downplay their serious health issues for the sake of maintaining their positions at or near the "top". I do have some light criticism, which of course you are free to ignore as it is unsolicited: I think your metaphors could use a little work, in particular I don't think you really explained why vtubing was a "treadmill", and a "revolving door" usually evokes a steady flow of people, not the same people going back and forth between two positions (that's more like a pendulum, in my opinion). I also would've liked to see more research in your conclusion, because as it stands your suggestions come across as well-wishing, no offense. Everything would be better if we could simply ask companies to take their employee's health into consideration, but that doesn't really work. Seeing what has worked for other, similar industries of creatives (particularly industries filled with independents) would have strengthened your argument: for example, considering how actors and writers both have guilds/unions to enforce work guidelines. Still, it was a good presentation!
Thank you for supporting my content. I appreciate the feedback, especially since this is my first video essay! I agree that my metaphors and points can be better thought out and supported with evidence. I will try to actively improve in this in the future!
You are awesome, thank you!!
Thank you for supporting me!
Self-care is definitely important 💙
Couldn't agree more!
Yup, the whole boom of the Vtuber stardom needs to be adjusted for sure~ there are many aspects that definitely require some realignment.
I am guessing the big issue (but also strong point) is that model somehow seems to be based on Japanese 'Idol Model' where they kinda needs to be jack of all trades in pretty same manner. This produces a genuinely majestic artists/entertainers buuuut also is harsh and may lead to burnout.
PS: I hope it won't take the dark route though as self-harm in aforementioned Idol industry was several times a problem.
Thanks for the video! I thought about this before but never managed to put it all together like that in my head. T makes me fear that we may see a big number of graduations in next few years
I agree, I hope our prediction does not come true. 🥺
very insightful video. i think it would benefit both the talents and the community if they didnt stream so many hours; some vtubers push out so much content that i never get time to watch it all anyways, imagine wanting to watch multiple vtubers...
Agreed. I cannot keep up with any of my favorites so I rely on clips and news channels to know what's happening in the land of VTubers 😅
From years of watching irl RUclipsrs who went from years of releasing videos pretty much every day without fail is that they suffered from burnout. Markiplier and Jacksepticeye spent years of releasing content without fail but eventually realized that it was ok to take a break and that fans would still be there when they came back. VTubers haven’t been around that long in comparison so they might not know that taking a break is ok especially in Japan.
Such a nice and well-researched, concise video! I truly feel like you've cracked the code here and you know what? You earn a sub just for that. As someone who plans to pick up V-Tubing himself, I feel the need to properly inform myself about as much as possible of what it entails to know beforehand just what I'm getting myself into here. Therefore I have decided for myself, especially since V-Tubing wouldn't be the only thing I do, that I'd rather try something such as one or two videos/streams per week or a little more depending on how I'm feeling. I really wouldn't wanna overshoot it on the trying to remain relevant aspect, because I don't have the grandest of aspirations and just starting out, while it can be a great drive, I also feel like it is unhealthy. You're often times setting yourself up for disappointment expecting a lot of gain from your efforts so my declared goal is that I want to do this thing for fun, to just put myself out there and share it with some people, who might enjoy it. If in the beginning that's nobody or just two people, then so be it, I'm doing this for myself as well. To create something I can be proud of. It's like fulfilling a dream and to realize a dream you don't always need to become rich and famous or ultra successful at the end of the road. It's about self-fulfilment. That's a mentality I feel a lot of indies would benefit from. The feeling of having to be a jack of all trades... while there, I feel like I have a niché I can go for. Will it be the most successful one? Probably not, but ultimately it'll make me happy and the audience that may or may not be there to watch me will like it too, due to me or a genuine interest in the subject and for no other reason.
As for the corporate side... I worry for a lot of my favorites as well. You mentioned Laplus specifically in the video... It just so happens that she's my oshi. I always tell her to take care of herself, because she too is already reporting some strains on her voice and I wouldn't want her to lose it because she overexerts herself... Obviously I don't speak enough Japanese to tell her in anything but English, but she's improving on that front and I hope she doesn't let the expectations of toxic fans get the better of her, but will listen to those instead, who care for her not just as a streamer, but as a person too. Because that's what many fail to understand... a human being is not a machine and V-Tubers are only their characters to a certain extend. Many could benefit from learning that lesson. So overall yes, I do agree with your statement of them just having to slow down, not just for themselves, but the whole industry's sake. In general, I hate how algorithms function in that you constantly have to post to be on people's minds. If you really manage to make an impact on someone, they will always come back to you, at least until you change your style to the point they don't like it anymore (like beyond all recognition akin to a failed rebranding attempt) or if they grow out of/turn their backs on the content you produce, not you as a person. But life these days is fast-paced and the human psyche is wired to be drawn to new things constantly... While it is within human nature though, I don't feel it needs to be that way forever. It just sucks that the pioneers are destroying themselves and pushing human limits both physically and mentally all for the sake of living up to the expectations placed on their shoulders. Laplus could only post a silly tweet about all of the expired stuff she has in her room and do a short Twitter space every once in a while, I still wouldn't leave her side. It doesn't take much to nurture a loyal fanbase once you have it. Why care so much about the fleeting market? Why not stick to those, who will always be by your side? Isn't that why we have few true friends but many acquaintances in life? If you have a strong core audience, drawing in one less person shouldn't be a big deal and we are only human after all, thus can only please so many people. Everyone should realize that.
So for the love of god, if you made it this far into the comment, please tell your favorite streamers, be they indie or corporate, to take it easy every once in a while. There's always archives, that's how the Ryuguards were coping with Finana's absence which she just returned from. If you really miss that person and they're on break or hiatus, watch some of their old stuff, draw fanart for them or the like... They'll appreciate it all the more later. It's not a crime to watch somebody else in the mean time either, you don't have to resent the other streamer later for, **for once mind you**, putting themselves first. Mental health is just as important as physical health people, if not more so in some cases and self-care is already neglected by far too many folks as it stands. Just look at how broken poor Rushia is... no matter in what iteration. In fact, a certain angel posted a fairly concerning tweet just a short while ago, which I just wanted to respectfully scream at her for to please seek professional help.
Alright you absolute legend, you made it through the whole comment. I salute to you. This topic is very near and dear, as well as personal to me since I may be faced with similar situations in the future and want to be prepared for them. So take care of yourself too and thanks for taking the time to read my comment, I wish you all the best!
Wow! Thank you for the wonderful insight. I wish you all the best on yout VTuber journey (Hope this video didn't scare you too bad!)
I started my own vtuber journey with a 3 stream a week schedule, and it wasn't too much for me. I switched to primarily videos because I found this community fascinating, and have a lot to say about it!
I encourage you to experiment with your own content early on and find what kind of content you find the most fun to make!
@@YamAlbat No no, don't worry, I still cling to my plans tightly, won't be deterred that easily, hehe. And thank you very much! While I don't have the grandest of ambitions, it would still be nice to bring entertainment to a few people and maybe make some new friends along the way, whether that be to the top or "the average". That's all I really hope to achieve, all while having fun of course! I do plan to do it as a hobby, not even wanting to think about it full time.
While three streams sounds nice, it might not be very sustainable for me once my next semester starts back up as I'm on break right now and that's a prime time to start. Add to that the newbie motivation of wanting to put yourself out there for the first time. I wouldn't want people to expect too much right from the get-go. They need to understand straight away that there may be phases of less content depending on what's going on in my life and while I have ideas and such, I want to prepare and maybe there would be a week every once in a while where you can't do more than the absolute minimum. You ought not only have the good times in mind, but also the bad. That's why I want to try keeping people's expectations low so when there's a slew of content to watch or the like, they'll appreciate all the more, knowing that it's an exception. That said, the scripted video approach has always appealed to me most, thus it may yet become my primary content too. There are a lot of experiences I will have to make, so I'm trying to keep an open mind while considering what is realistically achievable for me just starting out not knowing many things. One grows with their tasks and experiences after all and stream 34 is gonna be much different from the first two.
Therefore, yes I'll definitely bear that in mind! The more fun you have, the more it should hook the audience too ^^. You don't even need them glued to the stream, sometimes it's good just knowing you're someone's background noise on a bad day.
@@TheDragonwing9 That mentality will serve you well! I wish you all the best! 🧡 Being a VTuber can be a ton of fun ☆
Saw the preview on twitter, this seems like it'll be a super interesting watch!
Edit: I was correct, this was a really interesting video, as a vtuber myself it certainly gave me a new perspective on things 💖
Thank you for checking my channel out! I appreciate the support!
Comment regarding Kson: notice that she announced she would be joining VShojo EXACTLY one year after graduating from Hololive. I think that's no coincidence, it's probably to honor a clause she signed upon leaving Hololive. It would not surprise me that she started negotiating with VShojo even before graduating from Holo. And I think that's good, Hololive really did blunder their response to the Haachama incident; if they're gonna blunder like that, it's best to renegotiate the whole deal. I'm certain she obtained much better perks from VShojo, as befits a talent of her stature.
That said, Kson is exceptional. It's fine to be inspired by her talents and hardworking nature, but very few streamers will ever have the leverage Kson had.
Ignoring the thumbnail...
I appreciate this perspective on their health.
I've always heard them say how hard their coworkers work. Never really understood what they meant, so this perspective was much appreciated and probably needed.
Though yeah, I figured it's just like being a regular RUclipsr. As other RUclipsrs have said about being a RUclipsr, you're basing all your income on a single highly variable source, on a platform that can easily delete every video, ban, shadow-ban, age-restrict, or demonitize you, on a system that... isn't good for you. You have to self-moderate.
Like I've heard, normal people don't choose this abnormal line of work.
I never thought RUclips-ing was something you could/would do for more than 10 years. And yeah, relatively few people have lasted that long. Tekking101 being one of the only channels I can think of being that old.
All that on top of internet culture and how RUclipsrs interact with their audience.
We are *Chat* we are a potentially tireless entity, infinite in resources and infinite in demand.
There is no such thing as "enough" in the current consumer culture on the internet, TV, streaming platforms, blogs, comics, etc.
TFS had to announce an end to their DBZ S Abridged series, shows are allergic to a satisfying conclusion without a season 2 or spinoff.
I've seen more incomplete comics than I care to count. Typically ending from lack of interest, burnout, or financial/health reasons. And as far as I know, typically if not always from single or a few people.
One Piece. It's not even over and Tekking101 was theorizing on how some odd plot points might be Oda and the editors setting up plot lines for a sequel to One Piece once it ends in... idk a decade for the anime? Hopefully only that long for the manga/Oda's sake.
Going back: How creators and consumers interact is a huge thing too.
I always thought it was odd that if you donate/pay enough money on Patreon, some creators would let you work on stuff with/for them. But, it makes sense because such consumers are self-selecting for dedication and financial positions. And it minimizes the potential strain on the RUclipsr/creator.
All the toxic parts of out relationship.
I was going to relate us to a person with a bunch of mental illnesses but I'd be interesting to see a deeper dive into that.
If we, *chat, viewers, whatever* were psychologically evaluated. How many things would be found wrong with us.
Thanks for adding your insight! Agreed, only those who have a seriously abnormal passion for this type of content creation would agree to do it full time. And creating content on RUclips isn't enough, like you mentioned, creators tend to have various streams of income in the way of different platforms, crossovers, and merchandising. Chat being comprised of so many people, is bound to have some sour grapes here and there, but pair it with mob mentality and parasociality and a chat can get pretty volatile pretty quick!
@@YamAlbat Yeah, the prime example that comes to mind is that streamer with turrets, sweet anita?.
People triggering her "banana" tick to the point of damaging her throat.
Nice video keep up the good work
This is such a well crafted video, thank you for covering this topic!!
Loved this! I actually didn't know that a lot of VTuber voices were put on, I thought it was just a big range of natural voices, woops. I definitely hate the 'grind' mindset in VTubing - my particular bugbear is subathons, since they're designed to push beyond healthy limits. One of the only upsides to the Covid pandemic, IMO, has been seeing agencies actually give their talents time off instead of expecting them to work through illness.
This was very well done, however this is something that has to do with all type of content creators or public figures, from Irl actors through artists, regular streamers and Vtubers.
Ie I do have a Ig account, I post drawings, I know if I stop posting for a few days the algorithm will kick my balls and I'll reach way less people, that's the same for everyone else that posts on internet, if a Vtuber doesn't stream Yt algorithm will share the content less, so this is a mixed shitbag of having to worry about the algorithm + the work ethic of the corporation you're working for + your personal work ethic.
In this case I think it's way more notorious on Japan side and that's basically because they have a culture that tends to push people to overwork, specially when it comes to entertainment, however this is not always the employers fault, Ie I know others have mentioned Ayame, and yes, Ayame and others can spend their time without streaming for weeks and not be "punished", they're still bringing revenue in the form of sponsors and image, the videos that are already up also bring passive income and they get big numbers when returning.
This also leads to their individual work ethic, for Fubuki and Korone management has pretty much begged to them to take a rest and I think one of Korones old manager even cried because of it, meanwhile Fubuki was literally forced to take a break for a week, same with others, Pekora and Marine streamed when they knew they shouldn't because of their throat, others like Watame and Botan had learned the hard way (pass lives and similar) pushing themselves won't do any good and take it easy, Polka too for example and this is a wide contrast with En and Id culture at least in Holo where they would stream a few times a week and not daily.
It's almost like its a sort of addiction to stream which when you do for so long it does feel weird to suddenly stop, but it also comes to play the algorithm I mentioned above. More mental health treatment will probably help, Nene and Ayame had mentioned having depression, it's very easy to worry about numbers, about if people will leave you for the new shiny popular streamer and feel jealous about how others are doing or worry if your niche is getting taken away even without your own group of friends (Lamy, Coco mentioned it) etc, etc.
For what I know Holos at least for the first year are contractually obliged to stream a minimum of three times a week, which isn't too and actually, they can chose to stick to that minimum amount or stream more.
So yeah, this is not only in the Vtuber industry but all entertainment industry as a whole but I think it might be more notorious as of now with Vtubers with how fast everything is happening, the industry isn't even 10yrs old and there's a lot already happening it feels difficult to keep track of it but yeah, that's pretty much it, this culture has been here way before internet (see Marilyn Monroe for ex, or the movie Perfect Blue) but the good thing is that we've been moving forward, were not in an ideal place yet but we're getting there, we gotta keep pushing for it.
Thanks for your insight! I acknowledge that this never ending time sensitive grind does apply to all content creators, but I still feel like VTubers have a special type of pressure put on them still. Not just to upload streams and posting on social media regularly but to also be working on their singing voice, attending dance lessons, writing songs, illustrating, voice lines for things, learning a second language, not to mention the other behind the scenes of their brand. I haven't seen many content creators that are expected to be so good at so many different things. As a VTuber who previously tried to do it all and now decided to focus on videos only, I can say it's more sustainable to be more of a focused creator rather than trying to live up to the VTuber standards. I agree with a lot of your points though! Thanks again for contributing to the conversation
@@YamAlbat Oh yeah, tho I think that's more based onto the Idol culture some of them are based on, Ie while it's expected it's good to see most of them are prying away from that and doing what they can and they want, tho Holos and Nijis knew what they were doing when they signed up for it, specially the latter generations, they know they'll eventually had to do Idol-like stuff and still decided to apply, so that's on them, what I can blame the companies on it's the workload (the Vtubers aren't really expected to stream if they're too tired) and the way the handle situations+ the obvious lack of awareness about mental health, IE the Idol-like things is what actually brought some of them like Suisei, Nene and Watame, but they also too aren't expected to be the greatest gamers because being honest Holo doesn't have a lot of great gamers but it seems they stream because they genuinely like it en if it's the same game over and over and because of the sense of community they've, we can also blame the viewers for having expectations that a Vtuber should do it all when that's not true, just let them do what they are good at.
Yea I can understand and if someone cant I would still use voice changer sense some cannot make their voice sound younger than they can or what they want
In regular work holidays and time schedules are built into the contract expectations.
Most Vtubers seem to be effectively self employed so holidays/breaks go down, stream times (office hours) go up, days worked basically becomes “yes” and that’s before collabs, background projects (songs, sponsors, events and practice/upkeep).
The entertainment industry has always been a conveyor belt of content so when some people land done success they tend to break themselves in the process of preserving the subscriber/fan signup rates.
I totally agree. Thanks for your insight!
Calli in holo is definitely the high-effort, high-engagement type. She stubbornly pushed her music and spent her own money on music, and now she signed with Universal and had a concert in a live venue. She really could stand to listen to her managers and get better downtime for herself.
Meanwhile Gura had _so much_ initial success that she was practically keeping her head down for a very very long time. After almost two years, it sounds like she will be displaying some of her ambitions.
Depending on what the Vtuber is good at, some may need a lot more stream time, some can just sing /ASMR their way through. There are traits and skills that make some people more well suit to Vtubers. But that's just the same to any business.
Entrepreneurs basically grind through the startup part of their business, with some working over 60hours per week, or have their entire life around their business for a year or two, knowing the technical part of their businesses, knowing the law, accounting and marketing, speech skill to present the products, etc.
It just so happens that the Top Agencies show the best of the best.
Thanks for your perspective! I totally agree that it depends on the VTuber's content in regards to how much preparation work goes in. When I first started as a VTuber, I wanted to write a ton of original songs. To maintain my stream schedule, however, I had to immediately drop that and focus on mainly gaming content because I could not find the time outside of work and school to prepare anything ahead of time.
I hope even the busiest of entrepreneurs will learn to take a break every now and again 🧡
The fact that you can be a woman in your mid-30's and still attract a large audience is a blessing of vtubing. It's basically impossible in any other entertainment medium. But with that comes way more competition, and any competitive industry will grind people down.
The solution if you value work-life balance? Get a job almost everyone hates doing, but is necessary. Something like maintaining a waste treatment plant. You will have great pay, great benefits, go home on time everyday, and no antis. If you want a job that everyone else wants? Then you'll need to be the best among all the candidates, whether that's natural talent or hard work, or both.
Now that doesn't sound like a great system, but trust me, this is better than the alternatives, such as nepotism, decree by a central planning authority, plain luck (e.g. born beautiful), or other under-the-table dealings (e.g. giving your body to the boss).
Also it's kind of funny to hear you criticize what it takes to succeed using the vtubing formula when you're not particularly successful yourself. You decided you want to do this without making those sacrifices. I can respect that. But success is a lot less likely than following a well-trodden path.
I'm the same age as Brittany Spears and saw everything she's gone through. I despise Idol culture - both east and west.
Agreed. The west’s idol culture is scary. I’m glad Brittany is doing better!
Yup Im doing it all by myself 👍works for my stuff have been in the works for the past 2 years... hopefully to finish by the end of this year or mid next year. And even then Its rinse and repeat. Except I won't be able to bulk up content like this a momentum cannot die down once its up.. else all my or someone elses work will be for nothing.
I know this is months late, but as someone in a similarly revolving door industry (Game Developers go through almost literally the same thing with indie and corpo verbatim) the only solution is to not take shit from your employers and don't overwork past your regular hours. On average, people in my industry burnout and quit in 5 years. That is fucking insane for a career path that doesn't pay some people enough to live comfortably. The only way people remain in the games industry long enough to make a reasonably big impact is by pacing themselves and not allowing big wigs to walk all over them in the hopes of climbing the ladder quickly. Labor laws regarding my profession are not being taken as seriously, and it's getting to a point where you must analyze how much work you're being given and realize when you're being taken advantage of by employers. Especially in indie dev groups funnily enough, because there have been many examples of those places having almost no one to regulate their work schedule. At least with corpo, you know you'll be protected by labor laws and the like and will be able to take action if you feel so inclined. When taking on an independent project however, there are risks to consider in terms of having little to sometimes no legal wall between you and bad working conditions. I've found that even if someone has good intentions, things can go south for the workers. You really need to surround yourself with workers that know what they're doing and have good intent, otherwise your work collectively will suffer for it. This applies here in droves, you definitely need to have breaks, it's the most important part of work. If you don't give yourself breaks, you will start to shut down, your quality of work will go down, and your living conditions will start to suffer to fill in the time gaps you've left for free time. I would know, sometimes I have to put myself under crunch for several weeks to keep up with my work in game dev college. It's terrible what it does to my mental health, sense of self-worth, and environment. I can only imagine how bad it is for these people who spend their 24/7 working.
Vtubers need to patent their character as a whole. When the decide to go to a agency, they lend the rights during the duration of the contract. If the agent writes, they retain the rights of the character.
Good thought! That isn't traditionally how agencies work because originally the models of the hololive and nijisanji caliber were hard for a layman to get their hands on. Even now, a model of that quality is quite the investment! But I agree that I would love to keep my character! Thanks for contributing to the conversation!
In the end, they’re only human behind the screen. Well done cute bat girl.
Agreed! Thank you! ✨🦇🍠
There's a company that's fairly new that tries to put limits on how long and how often their talents are allowed to regularly stream to avoid burnout.
Their goal is for livestreams to be about a quarter to a third of their work time in a traditional 40 hour week. There's also uploading regular videos and shorts as well as meetings to try to make being part of the company a 40 hour week. Some of the talent is on older contracts, so they don't have the same rules, and exceptions can be made for proper vacations or marathon stream sessions.
What’s the company’s name? Sounds really good for prioritizing their talents health
Because I have health issues I literally only do what I can do. I just started twitter and people already asking me when I stream and I say I don't. I just use it as a conduit to make the content I want. I know my limits and I might stream in the future but not like most people do.
The pressure to do it all as a VTuber is real. I hope your audience learns to admire your content output style. Please always put your health first in whatever outlet of content creation you decide to pursue in the future! 🧡 You got this!
This gives me an idea I might act on it but it won't be realized anytime soon. What if vtubers can establish a co op. Like yogcast. Taking a share of the profits from streaming from multiple ad hoc streamers and providing contacts to high end artist and industrial equipment of course there's gonna be a long wait time to use the equipment to minimize the capital cost but this could be a solution as the company's purpose is to provide services and generate profits which profits goes to shareholders which are also vtubers in the end.
That would be interesting! Thanks for sharing!
This topic is so loaded with subjects to talk about that someone can probably make their whole Vtuber identity around discussing it, at least initially.
I personally feel that Vtubing beings such a fundamentally Japanese thing culture wise also has a big negative impact on the long-term health of the talents. Japan is known for having a rather brutal work ethic, with people literally working themselves to death in the low hundreds I think every year, so for people that are so used to that being a part of their culture it doesn't surprise me that so many of them push themselves into taking on an extra strenuous schedule when in actuality it'd be a much better idea in the long term to only do the 3 day minimum. Especially given how much more responsibilities so many of them have going on behind the scenes.
I couldn't agree more! Thank you for your thoughts on Japanese work culture. I didn't want to get into it in my video, but like I mentioned, that would take a lot of extra research to accurately discuss it, when I've seen a lot of youtubers have done it better. I do think it is a major contributing factor to the vtuber culture!
In general you set out some good points. However the examples don't support the conclusion. The sana example. She already had a professional, commercial art work gig for FGO, which she was proud of and wanted to carry on with and it clashed with a streaming schedule. Then she got a back injury. How can you claim to know how she got that, or that it was linked to overwork? it could have been a chronic thing or an accident. The two reasons made her mind up to graduate. The Rushia and Kson examples just aren't linked to burnout through health or overwork and torpedo your conclusion because they cannot be forced into such a simplistic mould. Kson and Hachama showed their analytics on stream and the youtube landing page thing listed taiwan as a country. Then cover affliliated at the time with China basically got dragged into a huge political type situation with money at the source. But this was a cultural problem at the core, much bigger, much more serious, leading to the talents having to go on hiatus (which you would count as a break right? resting their voices and not producing anything for months. but yes if you do not stream for months, your relevance may take a hit.) yes toxic fans came into it, but again that clickbait label simply does not do justice to a huge portion of chinese viewers that think that way. Because of the restrictions then placed on Kson, who 100% has western sensibilities she felt restricted to the point where she couldn't produce anything and left cover. Rushia started out as a parasocial thing where her fans thought she was dating but it was not the case. In an effort to fix things she overcorrected and released details of her life to a gossip site. Who published everything. That was a breach of her NDA on her contract and it came out she had leaked DMS. So absolutely none of this is health related or overwork related. At all. Not even slightly. The two examples I would say are more closely related to cultural realities in Japan if anything, which you just cannot claim is the case for the entire vtubing scene. So next the two of them were independant, but were the #1 and #2 superchatters on youtube at one point. Yes technology and resources are a factor to make the big vtubers for tracking or content creation. It happened that Vshojo was the other option. I mean Vshojo... have you caught many Hime Hajime streams lately? You just can't claim every corporation is a treadmill, blanket statement really. How about nyanners in the last 4-6 months since she started seeing Aethelstan, or Froots streaming schedule? It just isn't the same amount of streams.
An indie vtuber starting out simply would lack the resources of a corp to try to emulate the relentless schedule. But as a streamer first and starting out they would have to do what any streamer of any stripe does and work really hard, perhaps too hard to begin to succeed. Heres the thing. For a new vtuber they should recognise that cover songs and a relentless no life schedule is just beyond them and ease back slightly. Now to your main point I do see a lot of voice problems and health problems related to the lifestyle cropping up too regularly and forcing extensive breaks. I think it would take talent consistently dropping out for it to sink in as a problem for the main corps to realise its a problem. I do see a potential breaking point. For the record you could have just picked different examples in the conclusion to illustrate you mostly on the money point just fine.
The industry needs regulation, and the vtuber's fans need to stop being sycophants and actually support the person and not the industry. Be critical of corporations, supportive of individuals. Even if it means you lose access to their content, humanity comes first.
Wise words! thank you for sharing!
Wall of text here, but I have a lot of thoughts on this and just can't seem to consolidate them too much:
I think the issues stem from a combination of things that affect all content creators, not just VTubers, as well as those that affect just them, or affect them more, such as:
The grindset mentality that a lot of content creators have (which even short form content creators like people on Tik Tok have talked about) that makes them feel like they have to work as much as possible. This is also become somewhat of a cultural thing in Japan, so, even though, as you mentioned, corporate agencies often only expect talents to stream 3 times a week, the vast majority do much more than that. I think that's because of this kind of societal mentality. Not long ago, Kiara talked about how she'd tried to encourage her senpais like Pekora and Subaru to take more breaks and it's not like Hololive wouldn't allow them to. The problem is that even when working for a company that takes a more progressive stance on these things, the mentality is still there that they have to work as much as possible, to work hard for their fans and not lose them, etc. because that's the idea behind not just being a streamer, but being an idol.
There's also the blurred lines between work and hobby. Jacksepticeye for example, has talked about how playing games for a living and as a hobby meant that he was often playing for fun whilst thinking "I could be making content out of this", leading him to, first of all, need hobbies he didn't associate with work and second, be able to differentiate between doing things for fun and for work in his head. As a Korone fan, I might be wrong but I get the impression that her legendary marathon streams would be marathon gaming sessions even if she wasn't streaming. Like me and a lot of other gamers, she seems like the kind of person who gets so into playing a game that she just has to finish it, the problem is though, that she IS streaming, which means she stays in character voice, etc. which is where issues start to arise.
On a positive note, I do think the mentality from fans is at least changing. Years ago, Zoella made a video talking (and crying) about burnout and the toll that making videos all the time was taking on her mental health. Most fans were supportive but there was also a lot of entitled "fans" who were outraged at the idea. The video got a lot of dislikes, people said her tears were fake, she was ungrateful and acted like being successful meant not being allowed to feel that way.
Now, however, whilst there are, sadly, still some of these entitled "fans" out there, I think things have improved a lot.
As I mentioned earlier, you have Kiara openly talking about encouraging others to take breaks.
When Haachama went on her "indefinte hiatus", not only did Hololive support her decision but she received a tonne of messages from fans telling her to take as long as she needed and that we'd all be waiting for her when she returned, which proves that the idea your fans will forget about you just isn't true.
Also, in direct comparison to what happened with Zoella years ago: recently, when Zentreya redebuted, she mentioned that in the 4 days she didn't stream for, prior to the redebut, she did nothing but work in prep for the stream. As soon as she said that, Haruka immediately told her to take a break and chat was filled with messages agreeing with her. So, in just a few years we've gone from fans being outraged that a content creator they supposedly like would take a break, to fans actively encouraging them to do so.
Thanks for taking the time to share, I totally agree with your perspective! As a fellow korone fan I totally agree, she seems like the type of person who would dedicate 12 hours to a game she was really into even without the stream. Here's to hoping the talent mindset will continue to change for the better as the environment shifts!
@@YamAlbat Thank you, too, for taking the time to read it. I didn't think anyone would, tbh, lol.
I think there is hope there, too. More and more big creators have been open about taking breaks that people have been generally very supportive of and I think it's just a matter of time before it gets more normalised, even amongst creators in countries like Japan.
Since the internet is the way it is, for better or worse it's now very easy for influence like that to spread, so if big creators (no matter where they're from) set these kinds of standards, I think it'll spread more easily.
interesting video. i think allot of it has to do with the nature of the contracts as well. allot of it is behind closed doors and varies from person to person, but some of the other large JP groups have all kinds of nutso stuff going behind the scenes that is so hard to follow.
The Japanese agencies really do keep things under tight wraps. When researching this video, I met a lot of dead ends when trying to figure out the bare minimum streaming requirements for talents. I ended up basing my information off of the audition requirements. We will never know what really lies in their contracts, and I'm sure it varies greatly from group to group!
AFAIK Suzuhara Lulu retired not only because of mental issue, it's because there is literally a threat to her life. There are things going behind the scenes, and this is common to idol industry. I watch Lulu's irl stream and she is doing fine, so technically not a health issue but a security issue.
Oh that's tragic... Poor Lulu. I hope she is doing better!
i do hope that the vtuber community gets more successful creators who appeal to their own very specific and narrow niches that they're passionate about. Vtubers who do indepth analysis and research about their own community? Awesome. Vtubers who host massive events with other vtubers? Exciting. Vtubers who only make sketches and films (i havent seen one like this yet)? Count me subbed. A vtuber who only ever draws, has a feminine avatar and a very manly voice? GOTTA LOVE IT. Hopefully even corpos will support these kinds of people without demanding that they cut themselves to be the perfect cookie.
A very interesting and informative video on Vtuber culture.
Thank you for supporting my content!
I was a vtuber for a year and it basically drained my life and I had no time for anyone. I still love vtubing but I don't think I could do it again.
Oof, yeah… it’s easy to overdo it as a VTuber. Take care friend, I hope you find a content creation style that suits you if you ever want to hop back in!