What Makes PROG Crap | Part 2 of the great PROG debate
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- Опубликовано: 5 авг 2024
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Andy is a drummer, producer and educator. He has toured the world with rock legend Robert Plant and played on classic prog albums by Frost and IQ.
As a drum clinician he has played with Terry Bozzio, Kenny Aronoff, Thomas Lang, Marco Minneman and Mike Portnoy.
He also teaches drums privately and at Kidderminster College 
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"God, I'm bored. I may as well be listening to Genesis."
-Rik Mayall /The Young Ones.
😅😅😅😅😅
The big question: will AI replace Rick Beato? Well, it just might. But it will NEVER replace you Andy!!! Love this channel.
Max Headroom 😅
Rick was actually replaced by a.i. midway thru 2023
The thought of Plato being a prog purist is hilarious !
I thought that Plato disapproved of music because it plays on emotion without the benefit of reason.
My music teacher asked each of us to bring a piece of music we loved and she would play it.I took Interstellar Overdrive by Floyd and she played it all.Cue a ton of calls like "Miss,turn it off!" , "Thats garbage!" etc. At that moment I knew I was superioir to everyone in that class.I knew my refined tastes and appreciation of complexity elevated me to another level entirely.Yes,I was a pompous wee prat 😂😂
In that story we can see why prog is great and crap at the same time. It all about perspective
I absolutely adore these videos you do. So fascinating and funny and thought provoking. Please never stop. Ever.
Keep pumping this stuff out. Great stuff.
Thanks for the excellent chat on music. Great thoughts. I want to hear more. If you ever visit Chicago I’ll treat you to a beer.
Thankyou Andy :-) loved it Brilliant and groundbreaking and ever so funny at times. Thanks for being courageous and bold and on the edge at times while reminding us not to take it too seriously. That balance ! Phew! So Entertaining and very informative . Much aroha (love) from down under in Aotearoa (New Zealand) Keep them coming!
superbly entertaining, informative and pretty much bang on i'd say. Loved both parts for and against. Keep 'em coming
Great points all well taken here. Your take on the balance between the Dionysus and Apollo tendencies in us is spot on. I dig the nuanced and the discipline of well done practice, but also learning to appreciate more my years feeling stuck in a puddle of jam band situations. I got too into the control side where growing up with great albums gave the impression that every note on albums like Close To The Edge was pre composed like a Classical score. I had no idea the level of improvisation that went into my favorite bands back then. After many years participating in jam band things with various arrangements of instruments I can really appreciate the ability to just improvise a meaningful sequence of music on the spot on whatever instrument. It keeps whatever I do live and throbbing, where I feel the whole thing about the music, not just the details of the perfection. Without the jam band practice my playing was stuck in too much tension and I lost skill as I got older. Computers didn't help at first. Now I can just use the computer to record like a mixing board and tape machine; 1 microphone to record drums. The only editing was to split the track into 4 to do eq things to dial in a balance in the mix, otherwise every note is what I played. The guitars and bass are typically one take, and in the flow of recording the album I improvised a few duets between my bass and guitar. Vocals into one mic, same room as everything else, and I play the things from beginning to end with no cut and paste edits. My album Wyrd Weaver sounds to me like it's a band playing so free and live together that it could fly apart at any moment, like Close To The Edge with Brian Eno in the band. Even though it's all me the fact that I'm playing along to myself playing the thing live like playing and singing the guide track on acoustic guitar and voice, and then playing drums along with that and using no click nor grid at all, only following the rhythm in the guitar and the structure of the arrangement so it feels like a live drummer playing with the singer. The effects are applied like in the old days where the musical parts are actually played by me doing real things, then warping some of those things with effects to create the sort of psychedelic splendor in 70's Brian Eno albums and all the great prog stuff from the golden age. There's serious subject matter balanced with playful humor and love of life. Sure there's odd time and meter changes and dynamics in most of the songs, but it all grooves together and you wouldn't know it was odd unless you counted it cause it's not jerky. None of it is just virtuoso wanking, but everyone pulling together to weave a great adventure through a musical landscape. Coming to it with songs I'd already done live was a better idea than before when i came to the computer thinking I could use it to start writing songs again. I got really good at making ambient things like Brian Eno albums, but making songs didn't come back until I was left with nothing but an acoustic guitar. I like the results much better with the years of jam band behind me.
I listen to live audience tapes of the Jerry Garcia Band because it doesn’t have the perfectionism’s of Prog nor does it have the stance and swagger of the rock image, it avoids the chops obsession of Jazz, it lacks the posturing of Blues and the limits of country etc. electric Folkzak perhaps but ladies generally like or tolerate it and it’s Lounge ! Great video Andy , very thoughtful and funny.
Thanks for another interesting video Andy. I'm really enjoying your perspective on these topics and I totally agree that many neo prog bands are missing the visceral and from the heart playing and recording that drew me to this genre in the first place. It's really a shame that this well intentioned present infatuation with "perfection", especially in the recording studio, is just creating a lot of soulless music. In all current music genres to be honest. With that said, fortunately there are still some very good newer bands that are out there if you look hard enough. By the way keep us posted on when your new album drops.
I believe you and I would get on pretty well. I feel the same about alot of what you have said in many of your videos. I also find them quite humorous and somewhat therapeutic. Good on you Andy. Keep it up.
Hi Andy, just discovered your channel and wanted to say how brilliant this talk is. Made me laugh and made me think about many of the points you articulated so well. Lots of rabbit holes to go down for sure!
Thanks Steve
Can't wait for the next video!
Andy you give us food for thought and that is GREAT, PROG ROCK AS I SEE NOWADAYS LACKS SOUL and is to mechanised and formulaic and musicians should go with feeling and gut instinct. KEEP UP THE STANDARDS YOU HAVE REACHED ITS BRILLIANT. Bring on parts 3/4/5.
Excellent video, Andy! Quality content and ideas like this are why I’m a subscriber. RE: the new Beatles remixes; I have gone back and forth with quite a few people on these cash-grabs. Dealing with hyperbolic statements such as “the old mixes are now unlistenable.” It’s amazing that those old mixes inspired millions of people and were perfectly fine until new technology allowed this current revisionism. To quote Dr. Ian Malcolm from Jurassic Park, “your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.”
Yes,,,I find that no one is discussing this at all, it is just assumed these new mixes are better when in reality they just represent a different aesthetic that is far more conservative and dull than the one that created those albums in the first place. Perhaps they should use this tech to add a little chaos and rough edges to Steely Dan albums?
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer another thing that is troubling; these mixes have become the de-facto versions. Although the original mixes are still available, the new mixes are the ones in store shelves and promoted on streaming services.
Great stuff Andy! While I am OCD with some things my sock drawer is a mess! Go figure
Wonderful take on Prog with an unique point of view.
I could never really get into Rush do to a friend from the 70’s who would replay the same Rush song while he tried to play along on bass. Over and over.
He was the alphabetically sock drawer freak, borderline lead story on the evening news type. Still can’t get Rush.
I never thought of Plato’s influence on modern music. Very interesting.
Thanks for this Andy.
I hope Santa and Krampus treat you fair.
Rite ! I've mixed all my socks up and took the Rush Poster down, Am I ok to proceed to Part 3 or do I need some more Prog is crap Coaching. Brilliant episode Andy , proper belly laughs, the kids thought I'd started early on the JD, other drinks available.
I'm glad you took it with the humour that was intended...
I'm loving the titles of the sections!
Andy, that was perfectly stated and the big reason I have a lot of issues with a lot of Prog Metal. Too safe, too perfect and not progressing the music genre at all. Could some of the issues with new Prog is that artist grew up listing to Prog but nothing else?
King Crimson, Genesis, Yes, Gentle Giant... have a plethora of musical influences and created there own music identity.
This was awesome. So funny and so right. A+ (a perfect mark!)
Glad you enjoyed it!
You're right with so much in this video. Thank you for the enlightment, and putting the truth out there.
I strongly oppose the current perfectionism in prog (and pop music), and have done so for a long time. One example is Haken, who "everybody" seem to worship. I, however, have huge problems enjoying it when listening to any of their albums.
Because of my musical backgound, I can tell when the vocals or instruments are too perfect to be real, but I suspect that most non-musicians can't tell.
With that in mind, I have a question for you: If non-musicians subconsciously really want a balance of perfection and the hedonistic, but they can't tell if something is too perfect to be real or not, then why do they apparently seem to prefer the perfect stuff anyway?
Haken would be great if it sounded like it was made by humans. This ruins most modern prog for me.
You really nailed it, Andy. Thank you!
Hi Andy, I was in your neck of the woods yesterday, Ex Cathedra at Kidderminster Town Hall. Not quite Jazz Rock but excellent music!
Some great stuff there, Andy. I'm an original 60's/70's prog fan and I probably fell into it for the reasons you describe.
This is probably why, in my youth and middle age, I preferred photography as an art form to painting. Photographs can be perfect and great art seemed to me to be paintings which looked like a photograph, i.e. with as few imperfections as possible. However, as time has gone by, it seems that some paintings which don't look like photographs are beautiful and have an emotional edge. Perhaps it is the very fact that they are not photographically perfect which is what enables them to appeal to the emotions? Or perhaps it's not. Anyway, there might be an analogy in there somewhere that you can work with? Who knows.
Love that you point to a picture that isn't there. Because it doesn't exist. Until the Genesis hits. Cheers ☯️🎶
I got into prog as a teen when a friend let me borrow a tape with Yes on one side and Rush on the other. Also got into jazz fusion because I was in our school jazz band. Part of the problem is that prog requires digging deeper to find what you like because it isn’t getting radio/streaming play. Back in the 80s our AOR station would play cool stuff, but that gave way to top 40. More people might like it if they heard it. These days I read my Prog mag and head here to listen to bands featured that I don’t know.
Never felt anything but joy and warmth listening to prog and fusion. Even now 80% of my listening pleasure is 70s stuff. Going to see Steve Hillage next year. Not only a fine prog guitarist but producer of one of the best albums ever. (Not prog). Todd Rundgren's Utopia also brings me joy. Another fine lecture Andy. 👍
Are you a Todd Rundgren fan ?
I was very much into fusion in my 20’s during the 90’s, but when I hear it now I don’t connect to it at all, it bores me actually ,save for Mahavishnu Orchestra, I grew out out of it.
Oh my god! Andy, that was the most hilarious, irreverent thing I've just about ever seen. Good Job. Did I say you were dead right?
Nice one Andy, I was clapping.
Maybe its a reason I'm not as enamoured with the more recent Transatlantic offerings when I know that 20 years ago I'd have been raving about them.
My sock drawer is a mess though my underwear and T Shirts are placed in order of most recent washed go to the bottom of the pile. And my records and CDs are mainly in Alpha order though not separated into genres, although I have a few boxes where they are all higgledy piggledy due to having been rotatetd from my office space back into my loft and not yet put away.
I confess that I must have had a man crush on a few male musicians back in my teens e,g, Keith Emerson, Ritchie Blackmore, Michael Schenker - though I'd hide it by only having posters of them when playing their instruments, and then would balance that out with posters of female musicians of the late 70s and 80s e.g. Ann and Nancy Wilson, Stevie Nicks, Lita Ford, Kate Bush.
On the matter of females and prog when I was in my early 20's I had a girlfirend who not only ownend the 80's period Genesis albums she also had copies of Fragile and Close toThe Edge and regularly llistened to them, although things didnt work out between us and she hated heavy metal. I cant say I've met any females since who are prog fans, apart from those that post on facebook and twitter - the missus often wonders what the heck I'm listening to, though she's fine with more mainstream stuff like Queen and Meat Loaf and I did note that she nodded her head along to Breaking The Law where its being used on a KFC advert.
spot on AND this is the first time i heard you mention alan parsons...
I see your point of "girls don't like prog" yet I was introduced to prog by an older friend who was a girl who wasn't a musician in any regard other than playing the school band for a little while.
I wanted to be a musician after hearing all of "Fragile" on her new stereo. I just had the AM single if it prior. That lead to interest in classical music and jazz and studies....pretty much since that time. Funny, I have learned to like the more "feminine" music of that time later, but then listened to prog and hard rock mostly. The other things would have been early Chicago and Blood, Sweat and Tears which lead to Maynard Ferguson....which lead to earlier jazz.
The classical part was more than likely hearing the "Firebird Suite" on Yessongs and some things I was studying concerning piano and organ lessons at the time. I'm also a drummer, too concerning what I play.
Brilliant, Andy, and very funny. Glad I got in there while at secondary school '72 - '78, before I'd even heard the term 'prog', listening to Earth Wind & Fire one minute, Genesis the next, each artist/band was almost a genre unto itself, for boys and girls (teenagers, eh, what can you do with 'em?). All the latest Steve Hackett albums are produced to death in a cloud of sound like a comfort blanket. The only modern revivalist prog band I've heard that gets the visceral live-in-the-studio sound right is Wobbler.
You are right about Wobbler....
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I guess you've seen Lars Fredrik Frøislie going through his collection of vintage keyboards in his shed...
Brilliant so spot on again with your comments Andy You are a genius so funny and entertaining
Thank you kindly
On Plato, an old pet peeve of mine: I'm not at all sure Plato himself was the Platonist he was made out to be some centuries later. Plato himself was much more tongue-in-cheek than people realise.
'Rush Fans' Sex Club' should be a Half Man Half Biscuit song.
Only recently come across your channel. Despite being 65 I have to admit to being pretty much a philistine when it comes to prog rock, in the 70’s classical sense. Have been enjoying your takes on musical influences on the development of rock and the philosophical asides. Very entertaining. It’s prompted me to check out some of your recommendations.
I think an important aspect you could add to this particular discussion is about primal urges to dance. In that respect I just loved getting out of my head and letting go physically to music. I was a big Quo fan and loved ska for that reason. It wasn’t that I didn’t appreciate the musicality and story telling of bands like Genesis. It’s just that I would rather be up head banging or dancing round the room. So it was as much about the beat and energy as well as the music itself. Prog seemed more like sitting quietly and reading Lord of the Rings. Which just wasn’t me in my younger days. I appreciate much more varied stuff these days. I think you’re spot on with the perfection argument in this video.
A great video! Entertaining and educational.
Glad you enjoyed it!
@Andy Edwards - I can be quite critical when it comes to categories but damn you are one smart dude.
Watching this video, I recall when Robert Fripp concluded that Progressive Rock was becoming dinosaur music, that it was stale and empty. He went to New York City to jam with New Wave and Punk musicians. What you hear on King Crimson's Discipline was the result of those interactions. Fripp had more than a clue about what it meant to be "Progressive". And on the subject of "Modern Prog" or any music marred by digital perfection: I would rather listen to some unhinged, noisy, crazy ass barely in control garage band than anyone so obsessed with perfection they've forgotten how to bleed. I want music and bands that are alive, not a reasonable facsimile of a classic.
Ouch... I like Rush, my records are in alphabetical order and my socks are matched. It's funny and it hurts a bit at the same time because you described me a bit too well. But I also agree that good music needs to have a balance between emotion/personality/imperfection and technique/expressiveness. I like it when music sounds like it's played by real people - whether it's true or an illusion created by studio technology.
Another interesting video Andy
I once had "In a Glass House" (the title track from the Gentle Giant album) played at a small party I attended. I warned everybody it's going to be hard to dance to, but it actually worked out pretty well. No rooms cleared 🙂
Taking Van Der Graf Generator’s H to He and a bottle of Merrydown mead to a party made me feel very sophisticated. The drink went well…….
I think Gentle Giant has some of the most danceable prog music. The same thing has happened to me several times.
03. Way Of Life = prog disco!
I'm a Prog fan from Portugal and I think you are absolutely right. (and I laughed a lot too... Thanks! 😊)
Glad you enjoyed it!
I think I'm an outlier on this channel b/c i don't really like most prog, most fusion, most metal or bands like Deep Purple, Motorhead, and similar bands. I absolutely love some of all of those. But I"m really selective. I am squarely in the big band of the demographics (50s & M), but I was a piano/keyboard player in the 80s. If I had a nickel for every guitar, bass and drum player who asked me if I could get my Roland Juno 106 to play Tom Sawyer sounds and did I want to join their band. So for me, this video was GOLD BABY! lol!
Andy - these two videos are a tad academic (not that I mind, having spent a good part of my life in academia) but make some really strong points about the music. I find I am greatly aligned with your taste, with the exception of Heavy Metal which, in general, I find a bit boring. Chacun a son gout, I suppose (sorry - I can't get the accents on the french words!). One thing you said hit a real chord with me and that was that the generation that grew up with popular music from the sixties onwards (I am a Baby Boomer born 1951) was touched by the music in ways that have not been the case for perhaps the last twenty years. I was eleven years old when the Beatles suddenly appeared, and I have never been the same since. I love rock music, and gradually grew up to appreciate Progressive Rock (as well as Punk), jazz - in all its many guises, - and fusion, in particular. I was introduced to it by seeing Return to Forever (I think the track was "After the Cosmic Rain") on the Old Grey Whistle Test and am still reeling from the amazement I felt then. As far as non-classical music is concerned, I believe that you are right - we were the Favoured Generation of the Golden Era, now sadly passed. As long as you have that viewpoint, I'll keep checking out your videos. Thanks for articulating what I have felt my whole life. Cheers!
Hi Steve...these two videos are the precursor to an epic 7 part series that will look at the history of progressive rock. That will then I hope bring up a number of themes that don't ever get spoken about, and you have identified one. I hope then to go deeper into those areas...
Something that always struck me about progressive rock that separated it from other strands of music was that, despite the virtuosity, nobody ever played anything beyond their own compositions. Blues and jazz have standards that everyone plays and puts their own stamp on...that doesn't exist in Prog. Imagine a world where Genesis played Siberian Khatru or Yes played Tom Sawyer. I think this contributed to the tribalism and musical arms race that ultimately led Prog into the cul de sac it still resides in.
Really interesting!
Bill Bruford makes exactly this point in his autobiography
How funny! I was thinking the whole time while following your arguments that Steven Wilson is the perfect example of how increasing perfectionism can go from art to soulless music. And then you gave him as an example…. Lol…I believe his album with the most “perfect middle” is “Porcupine Tree: Lightbulb sun”, while “The Raven that refused to sing” is most evocative, and the perfectionistic abomination is his most recent solo album, which I do not even care enough to remember its title! Lol…enjoyed your video! :)
He would make a great case study. My next few videos will explore this and him a lot deeper
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Looking forward to that... :-)
Yeah, I'm not so much into the recent solo job .. but I'm not sure it's 'perfectionist' or any more perfectionist than say, 'Raven' or HCE, both of which I love .. It's just an exaggeration (not the right word) of a style that was always in his music: I can hear something from 'To The Bone' in the solo job and so on. Some complained of the pop sound yet there are much loved SW songs that are pure pop, imo. As a Bowie fan since 1972 I am used to rock, 'white'soul, pop, grunge whatever from the same artist. And Bowie, much loved by SW, his dog is named Bowie.
Listening to progresive rock makes you go blind 😵💫😵💫. I think you really nailed why I got into prog and fusion. It was about admiring guys who could really play (in a rock or jazz idiom) without all the need for posing/strutting and stroking.Thankfully, my record collection is so disorganised I don't have a clue where anything is most of the time - perhaps that's just lazines ?
Now 1/2 century when was 17 and can recall listening to - Yes ELP Genisis Gentle Giant Curtis Mayfield Santana King Crismon issac Hayes Rory Gallagher Mahavishnu Orchestra / and many other bands that you discuss - “on the corner” and the girls were with us and went to concerts with us regularly. In my day - good music was not inclusive!!
Ian Anderson, blueprint for that type of perfectionism… great episode Andy, 🍻 😊
Jethro Tull illustrate what Andy has said. From a late '60s blues/jazz hybrid; to English pastoral mixed with Pepper era Beatles; to the pretentious perfectionism of Prog and God knows what else. Along the way losing that essential spark and spirit; the joy and innocence of simply making music.
For me it's all about the musical palette. I need it to have melody and work as a song, and for the solos to support that rather than be self-indulgent 10 minute tangents just to show off chops. It's like opera for me - I can appreciate the technical skill that goes into it but it isn't my jam.
What you are saying here, is the reason I'm not into Rush or Dream Theater. The perfection aspect is boring. I can admire the talent. But it becomes so clinical & sterile. A lot of modern prog is like this. I very much prefer the crossovers. Bringing other world ideas into prog. I also love punk, goth, post punk, whatever. I need to listen to a healthy balance of it all.
Hi Andy, this is, by far, your best video, so far. Couldn't agree more. You took the words right out of my mouth (sung by who?). And, this is one of the reasons (amongst others), I turned away from anything "proggy" a long time ago. Another one being, there's so much stupendous sound 'out there' worth being acknowledged & heard that doesn't crave & care for perfection whatsoever. Music of the heart & senses, rather than music of the mind. However, having said that, as an act of nostalgia, otherwise known as 'getting buried in the past', and, because I've been following your channel for a while now, I have reconsidered at least some parts of Prog Rock, and the according bands - even discovered some new ones like Big Big Train & IQ (cheers, mate). You might also call it 'going back to my roots'. You see, I'm turning 70 next week. I grew up with that 'stuff' from its very beginning. Therefore, I felt a wee bit puzzled when you 'declared' the 'average' prog fan aged between 55 & 65, whereas, the 'original' & 'genuine' ones are my age and beyond. Anyway, just let me describe the 'average' prog fan: 95% of them were male, and, 90% of those never got laid. Long-haired, otherworldly introverts, who considered prog being an 'acoustic hole in the ground' where they could hide from a cold, mean & uncomprehending world. With bands like King Crimson, Yes, Genesis & VdGG (them being the most outstanding of them all), we had, finally, found a voice to express our deepest feelings, thoughts & fears. Already in the late 60's I had a formidable record collection, so I was always invited to parties, and allowed to bring my records. However, after 15min. into the party (the latest), I was told;"you may stay, but stop playing your music. My guests are falling asleep, and getting depressed at the same time". Y'know what I mean?
One reason I resumed listening to some of them, are the lyrics, and - looking at the world of today, and the state it's in - most of the words haven't become moss-grown, at all. One of my favourite King Crimson tracks, or rather all-time favourites 'Epitaph' has never been more up to date than right now. Not to mention 21st Century Schizoid Man. However, more than any of these bands VdGG's Peter Hammill expressed what floated about inside my soul:
"These days I mainly just talk to plants & dogs,
all human contact seems painful, risky, odd,
so I stay acting God in my own Universe.
If only I could phrase satisfactory words
in conversation to make my passion heard.
If only......."
(VdGG - Meurglys III from 'World Record')
And, these words still apply to me. Now. almost more than ever.
So, mind you, at least in the beginning of it all, it WAS music of & for the heart, and those bands were still light years away from being the self-optimized perfectionists they were soon to become. In the late 60's recording facilities had just begun to evolve & improve, meaning the involved musicians had to put their full heart & skills into their work to make up for it.
What bands like Yes & their successors did later happened, because they could do it. That's why - no other reason.
And, that's when it became anally-retentive. When people start doing things for no other reason than the ability/possibility of doing it. Just like; 'why does a dog lick his balls?' Because he can. He couldn't, he wouldn't, right?
Mankind has always striven for progress & perfection, totally neglecting that perfection is nothing, but the devil's work. It's just not possible for us meager humans to be totally good, whereas we've taken giant steps to succeed with the opposite. Trying to create an unprecedented & unlimited possibilities, we now live in the "Age of Feasibility"and whatever comes with it. And, this has perpetuated itself to an almost sinister degree.
And, that's where the fun stops, and severity begins. Would be OK, if we could confine this to the realms of Prog Rock, or music as such. But as culture has always been a reflection of the world that has enabled some people to create culture, we're now drifting into a global 'compulsive self-optimising disorder' of some sort. And, as things are not only globally, but also mutually dependent on each other, it affects almost every part of human life, with one thing leading to the next. YT is one prime example of my theory. It's a true cornucopia of information, music & culture as such, but it's also nothing but an "Ocean of Mud". Pandora's Box on bad acid, if you know what I mean. A university of Heaven & Hell - depending on which way you choose to go. Huge & increasing amount of YT channels are about nothing but 'self-optimisation' of whatever sort. Some, albeit rather few, are about 'inner awareness' whatever that means - but, fair enough. The majority, however, focuses on rather mundane & secular issues such as fat loss, lean bodies, bigger muscles, more testosterone, and so on, and so forth, creating nothing else but the ultimate pressure on the viewer. The 'doers' call themselves 'influencers', to me they're nothing but manipulators. Let me finish this little tractate, saying: "There is nothing more boring & lifeless in life than perfection." Sela!
The only way to order your records is by cover colour, according to the rainbow (not Ritchie Blackmore’s one). OCD? Moi?
Virtual ABBA is where it’s all going to end up. Holo concerts.
Another thought provoking video. Thanks for keeping this old brain ticking over.
Mine are organised in order of the most recent randomly crammed in to the oldest randomly crammed in...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer to be honest, mine are alphabetical, except where they’re not!
The Tendency to detach from real visceral or lyrical expression goes even further. Some people don't even engage with music never mind composition. They want to talk about guitars.
Great video Andy.
As a drummer, I've had tracks quantized so that every note is perfect but how long will it be until computer generated music does the opposite and artificial songs have small mistakes written in to sound more human and realistic?
However you cut it the computer will only copy until its can make music for other computers
I have been watching your videos out of turn, going backwards. I appreciate and agree with much of what you have said here. I have observed the older white male audiences at many of the concerts that I have been to over the last few years. I have now heard you hint at a dislike of Marillion several times (including using their great art for this video). Besides for the fallacy that all they were was a carbon copy of Genesis, what do you have against early Marillion? Rush was a carbon copy of similar sounding bands when they got started too. They both evolved and riffed off of what was going on, and also created their own voice. Is it because they were not as noodly or inaccessible as some of the other Prog cannon? Cheers
Love the channel, love your insights. But find adverts at every 5 minutes too distracting.
I could put them advertless up on Patreon...;)
I agree with your Marillion comment. I’ve tried and tried to like them but the older stuff is just Genesis Wannabe and the other is just boring. If I want to listen to vintage Genesis I’ll put on good old Genesis.
Damn you Andy! Now I need a prog drawer!😁
The analytics have men nailed as to this channel, that's for certain.
I think a lot of this is spot on, but with respect to the perfectionism argument, it seems hard to reconcile with the fact that so many proggers are into shambolic krautrock bands like Can. Or why so many of us obsessively seek out live recordings.
Johnny Rotten said he got his singing style from Van Der Graff singer Peter Hammill's 75 album Nadirs Big Chance
Birthday Special!
On the question of females and prog, when I was single my sock drawer, well not even sock drawer more like sock floor, was a perfect illustration of the second law of dynamics yet now I am married (to a woman) everything is in strict Teutonic order. A bit of a paradox. Mind you she is a huge Mike Oldield fan.
In this general context, I'd like to bring up Frank Zappa's synclavier albums (Jazz from Hell (1987) etc.). Personally I find that he takes the perfectionism aspect, as well as the creation of music that wasn't meant to be humanly playable from a technical aspect, and is the only artist I know of that takes it all the way and then OUT THE OTHER SIDE. In a strange way it seems to become visceral again. Nobody has even managed to touch this.
I realise that this is very subjective, and I might be alone on this, but I'd really like to hear what you think of these albums in connection with the theme of your video.
I have thought something similar to this...and believe was sending the whole concept up with those albums.
And, still excellent composition, and playing. His music was his mind - and he was a satirist. So full of colour, light and contradictions. A one off, and a wow was he. Lucky we have it/had him. Can’t do frank with dials, thingamajigs, click and clack.
I love that "Jazz from Hell" album. Yes is my favorite band.
I've loved most of Frank's music for fifty years, but he was a perfectionist and misanthrope. That's perhaps where the genius came from though. Creative people aren't always easy to like. I didn't like his classical works at all and couldn't relate to them.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. I am a Prog/fusion fan and my albums are in alphabetical and chronological order. I go to a gig every month pretty much with friends half of which are female and they go to the front and dance. They like Prog but the old bald dudes around them look on in disdain. I do find the perfection a bit of a deal breaker Dream Theatre for one and four chords round and round with a guitar solo Marillion for another and then don't get me started on Rush !!! . Now I have albums by them all and seen them all live which I enjoyed more than the recorded output. Always gets me in trouble as the fans of these bands seem to believe they are the be all and end all of life. I like stuff that challenges my perceptions at least a little but also has a good tune . Melody is all to me. You cannot have a song of any note that does not have a tune. Done.
I figure the big thing is that it lacks the ritualistic and communal aspect. If you have some percussionists at a drum clinic, there will be a very small audience of mostly awkward teenage males, but if you take those same drummers, and put them at a drum circle on the beach, there won't just be men drumming, but women too, and people dancing and shaking their hips in the sunset. Recorded music stole music away from the group, old pubs would have a piano and all the people at the bar and their mum too would all sing along. We got to the point where music wasn't a 'doing' it was an 'experiencing'. It was watching and listening. Especially as you say in English and American culture. In the Caribbean and in South Asia music was and still is about movement and groove, dancing is built right in. Community is built right in with Salsa or Bhangra. Or Funk or Reggae even.
Yes! The great artistic sin! Technical perfection drowns the individual, drowns the artist!
Thank you for this thought-provoking video, Andy. As a serious Catholic and admittedly obsessive fan of jazz, prog, fusion and hard rock and classic heavy metal, you certainly gave me a lot to chew on. I am not sure I agree completely with your take, but I am still working towards a coherent philosophy of music. As of now, I am inclined to say that what makes music good depends on the context in which it is written, played and recorded. As a Christian I would argue that music in a liturgical setting should absolutely elevate one’s consciousness to the reality of divine perfection. At the same time, I would say that popular music is valid and has an important artistic role to play in capturing the essence of the human condition in our broken condition on Earth. I absolutely agree that perfectionism in popular music does not produce good art and is sort of a form of gnosticism in its disdain for the limitations of the human brain and body in our material existence.
I hope this makes sense. I encourage anyone to feel free to respond to me or tell me why I am off base. Also, thank you Andy for contributing to the EXCELLENT Miles Davis album ranking show you did on Sea of Tranquility. That was truly something special!
I would have to disagree with your 'broken condition' here on Earth...pure neo platonism. It's not true. If God is omnipotent and omnipresent it cannot be.
Thank you for your reply! I suppose I do subscribe to a type of neo-Platonism. Through original sin and rebellion against God, man disordered everything. God is omnipresent and omnipotent but he is not a tyrant and we are not his slaves. We have free will to choose good or evil, love or hate. We live in a messy, emotionally tumultuous world, but there is profound beauty in pop music that celebrates the goodness of humanity but also acknowledges our woes and sorrows. Great art acknowledges the complexities of our material existence, all the good and bad included, but also suggests a path towards improvement and more perfect love. But I’ll table the theology talk for now! This is a music discussion channel and like you said we are here to have fun! ☺️ Best wishes, Andy.
That’s right, here to have fun. Something that religion definitely is not.
I can't really play the piano well, but I had piano lessons for about 8 years. One day, after I played a piece according to the sheet music, my teacher pulled out a tape recorder and let me hear the same piece played by an 8 year old kid who also was a student of his. Not to let me hear how perfectly the kid played it, but to let me hear how this 8 year old kid let feeling into the music. Playing not strictly according to the sheet, but sometimes hesitantly, sometimes softer, then harder. As if he made it all up on the spot. Which he probably did to some extent. Not the notes of course, but the dynamics. Best musical lesson I ever had.
My music teacher also told me the kid preferred playing football way over playing piano. 😁 And yes, I do like Marillion. Of the Fish era that is.
Great video Andy. By the way Ian Anderson already saw in 72 a self importance in the prog moviment from his fans and critics and made thick as a brick as parody of the excess of the prog rock, in a Monty Phyton way, a joke Record. A guess that joke record works well too much as that Record is consider a prog rock masterpiece kkkkkkk
I am filming an epic history of prog and it becomes apparent the proggers themselves realised the dead end they were in before punk came along
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer yes indeed👍.A good another example is the fact that Robert Fripp felt that dead end and king crimson ceases to exist after red. Or the evolution of the sound of genesis after Gabriel ( or Hackett) leaves is a good example
I think that quantizing and auto-tuning (on top of maximizing and over-compression) messes with the transients in such a way that the player's sudden energy burst due to eagerness, gets lost. That's why I hate it.
I accept that prog mostly appeals to a male audience but I remember when I heard Genesis for the first time in about '78 and before Phil Collins was a household name, I heard it from the elder sisters of school friends and a female neighbour. They had Selling England, The Lamb, Trick, Seconds Out. Not predominantly appealing to men at all.
Several hours later ... oh. I've listened to all of it now. Really interesting and funny. I think you've just explained why I can't enjoy much of modern prog.
Interesting and I agree with much of what you say. However, there's one thing that's a deal breaker for me. Furthermore, I say this as a vocalist of some disrepute within the field. The vocals are often the part where my ears shut themselves off. DreamTheatre cough cough....case in point....That sexless "Fol di ro fol di ri" recieved pronunciation delivery just makes me go.... "Not for me".
the lyric of Dream Theater died on Images and Words very soon! it is a PITTY . Then you come with that voice.... We just like this voice because remembers Another Day.
Andy, your next band - The Gate Peepers.... Oh, and the perfect is the enemy of the good....
Haha 😂nailed it. I have said it for yrs and why I have mostly walked away from the fundamentalist, as I did when I got into art rock when Zep and Sabbath and stones ruled the world. Many good labels like Realworld, where real music comes from. People who love ‘real music’ will find real music - rot is when the fundamentalists / The Pigs dictate. live jazz and blues, classical and constant deconstructionism, etc born art. A navel is a navel. Cheers Rock n roll forever!!
'spotty white teenage boys in great-coats' can't remember where that came from but it's exactly right.
Andy, what I really want to know is what you think of Magma, a totally idiosyncratic band that has been around for 55 years now.
I think I just found the answer on your clip "10 Artists I Never Talk About." Well, darn it, talk about them. 🙂 (I wrote about them in Option magazine in 1988).
This was a great video. You could even say it was perfection. Just joking. Plato was a prog fan. That was a classic line. So would Howard Hughes have been a prog fan?
Poor old Bruford used to be most disappointed at the sausage fest crowds Crimson attracted. Yet prog and fusion concerts are awesome for women. During intermission you can go straight to the toilets while there's a long line outside the Gents. Not to mention feeling like you're in high demand, even if you look like hell.
@Andy Re: Marillion - is it general, that you do not like Marillion, or are there some parts of their style that you do not like?
I could listen to the early Genesis copy era stuff because I like Genesis. I like AD/DC so I can stomach a Krokus album. They weren't as good as IQ, or Pallas or even Pendragon but it is what it is. Then they slowly move to making pedestrian dad rock. It's not funky, there are no solos and they don't push the envelope. Its well played but dull.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Ok, as far as I can understand the Genesis and AC/DC analogy and can find especially the latest Marillion works a bit boring, there are two things I must mention here.
For me, growing up in the late 1980s, Marillion with their success at Misplaced Childhood was the entry point to the prog world. Without Marillion I would not be listening to the old Genesis and Pink Floyd, not to mention Yes or ELP.
Maybe this IQ, Pallas and Twelfth Night comparison to Marillion has something about striving for perfection? Marillion on their first record was not perfect at all, but it had the 'thing' that caught fans' hearts.
And the second thing is that I cannot say that there are no solos in new Marillion music. There are plenty of them, actually, but yes, maybe they are not brave enough to be interesting.
The last 3 years I've been on a non-stop quest to discover great modern (post 2000) prog songs, that was previously unfamiliar to me. I've actively listened and skimmed over thousands of albums. I can tell you that the albums that usually inspire me the most, are the ones that are NOT using quantizing and auto-tuning. Sometimes even the production is not necessarily very good, but the energy and ability to inspire me weighs up for it. This feature is completely lost in "perfect" music.
I've never understand why people feel ashamed of their listening choices, I couldn't give a difficult shit who likes Prog and who dislikes it, people follow trends like sheep Punk came along the vast majority of it was utter rubbish, but it was fashionable, so the press panned Prog with the dinosaur tag.
Fast forward to last Nov I went to see Porcupine Tree 3 hours of fantastic music, very few people in my group of friends or family knew who the hell they were, My attitude back in the punk era was the same now, couldn't give a fuck if they were not trendy.
Case in point I had free tickets to see a very trendy artist, Ed Sheeran, two hours of utter shit by a bloke who uses backing tapes for most of the show.
whatever your taste in music stick with it, don't try to shy away from something you love.
I
I love your channel, and i love Marillion with Fish.
Apocalyse in 4/4....
Just read your post on your Patreon site about this, and the low percentage of female subscribers to your channel. Now I'm one of those rarest of birds - a prog-loving woman - and I do intend to subscribe to your Patreon when the money kicks back in after Xmas. Oh and I really can't stand Steven Wilson!
Looking forward to you coming over, I think we have a few other females there too :)
What is valued right now is repetition and imitation. Would love to see a music platform run by people and not the corporations, and wonder if it would favor expression and innovation.
o.m.g. due soley to Mister Edwards channel I'm beginning to imitate fusion and prog in my guitar playing. What dark magic is this?
ha ha
Ok, this one made me subscribe👍🏁
Thanks for subbing
Very interesting and humorous video Andy.
I am going to make a provocative and perhaps controversial remark.
I don’t think ‘prog rock’ is mainly popular with and gender imbalanced toward men because of males that are problematic and personally lacking something.
I think it’s far more popular with men because of something that is lacking in women 😉 Prog has rarely been fashionable and I think women usually want to be fashionable and have social kudos with their peers. Women also tend to enjoy more simple straightforward music they can just sing along and/or dance to, music they can enjoy in a social rather than solitary setting, and prog doesn’t deliver on that.
How come women like knitting? It is solitary and unfashionable and relies on great technical skill. Perhaps it is the fact they have knitting that they don't like prog?
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer There are knitting groups.
@@daicullinane7746 Yes...Marillion...
How many young women these days really enjoy knitting Andy 🤣 I think these days its as popular with them as prog is. My granny liked knitting but she didn’t listen to Dark Side of the Moon so I guess your point stands 😂
This is the most eye-opening music video on RUclips.
Love it, Andy - speak the truth! Ironically the gatekeepers of prog are now equally as bad as Jan Wenner and all the hacks at Rolling Stone that we all hated back in the late 70's and 80's. Prog lost it's progressiveness once it got labeled as prog. Sure there are some really decent bands but those of us who go out of our way to do this Anally Retentive stuff generally fall into the trap of crap
Thanks Rob...I'm working on a 3 1/2 hour history of prog and I have changed my mind about what makes prog great and what makes it crap. This bubble of prog we reside in is not the full picture....
So I am I right in thinking that animals as leaders aren’t one of your faves, probably along with dream theater or even haven😳
I love Matt Garstka's drumming when I watch him just playing but they are over produced. I like Haken...especially the Gentle Giant overtones
Great talk but now Andy has me worried about two prog albums I recently bought and really enjoy. How real are the players, I wonder?
Which alnbums?
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer "Awakening" (2020) by Esthesis from France. And another French band called Hypnagone released "Qu'il Passe" this year.
There certainly aspects of prog that appealed to the egotism of teenage boys: Rush’s worship of Ayn Rand being a case in point. I think a lot of listeners (female?) found the adolescent philosophizing tedious.
Mister Edwards - I could write a thousand blues songs but until we actually jam words just go so far. I'm in Hollywood, where the rain falls as I type. "Hollywood" is actually a neighborhood of the richest and poorest folk in L.A., there is no place like it. Anyway, if it serves all, come to L.A. and jam with a real blues traveler. Ginger told Eric that he was a jazz guitarist and Eric went "huh?". Yes, I play everything UNLESS IT'S BORING. Hee.
Just a small point, shouldn't this be titled "What makes modern PROG crap"? Either way, both forms are mostly for blokes and that is a puzzle.
About that gender imbalance, being a fan of Japanese bands I find that there are more women musicians in prog than men. The last time I attended Prog Tokyo, only one band of 9 were all male (and none of the bands had dedicated vocalists).
But unfortunately my favorite Japan bands follow exactly one of your negatives! They are based on virtuosity, the ability to compose and play highly complex instrumental pieces faultlessly. There is no "stance", its all precision music.
That just happens to be my thing, whats crap for one person is great for another :)
There is also the whole "Girls Metal Band" scene in Japan which is a genre of its own.
Why? A clue can be found in the foyer of the Tokyo School of Music. There is a wall of Marshall amps and ESP guitars. Rock is seen as a respectable genre. In the West, women are steered towards classical instruments.