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What Makes PROG Great | Part One of 'The Great Prog Debate'
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- Опубликовано: 1 дек 2022
- Become a Patreon! / andyedwards
Andy is a drummer, producer and educator. He has toured the world with rock legend Robert Plant and played on classic prog albums by Frost and IQ.
As a drum clinician he has played with Terry Bozzio, Kenny Aronoff, Thomas Lang, Marco Minneman and Mike Portnoy.
He also teaches drums privately and at Kidderminster College
Re: the blurry line between prog and fusion in the 70’s: I remember listening to the intro to “Heart of the Sunrise” at a friend’s house when I was about fifteen. His father came into the room and said “Since when do you guys listen to modern jazz?”
It’s the only genre I never tire of. There’s so much diversity within the Prog umbrella!!!
Here Here!
This should be shot out into space as one of the most beautiful speeches ever made. Alien races will learn a lot from it. 😂 Well done, Andy. Cracking stuff.
As an alien I agree.
So you contributed to that masterpiece that is Hyperventilate? I can only say THANK YOU!
Now's too late and will finish this video tomorrow.
Well said Sir. I feel like putting all my Roger Dean posters back up and getting drunk on cider whilst air drumming along to Relayer😁. I remember vividly a deep sense of embarrassment when a schoolfriend brought round his new Sex Pistols LP and I played him Olias of Sunhillow 😆 maybe we weren't so far apart as I thought....
Thank you for another great video, Andy. In 1969, the year (to my mind) when all this great music really started, I was 15 years old, and I consider myself incredibly lucky to have been the right age at the right time. I was an avid enthusiast of all this music being created. There is one non-musical aspect that I'd consider worth mentioning: This music opened a generational gulf or rift that most 'adults' at the time collectively seemed unable to bridge (not only musically), This continued until they generally disappeared over time due to age. It's as if a new and much stronger dividing line due to this new music had been called into existence between generations than ever before. Which was and is a good thing.
The irony is that Prog is far less pretentious than the artsy crap that the critics like. It's just beautiful complex music that nerds like me enjoy because we can tell the difference and it's not aiming to please a narrow minded crowd.
I can hardly put into words how much you and your thoughts impress me. I've been involved in music for 45 years, so many doors have opened since I discovered you and your channel. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Amazing analysis. I just took to prog as a teen because of the great playing, cool riffs, epic band sound, interesting lyrical ideas and, especially, the variety. I was bored by songs that were basically the same at the end as they were at the start. I never cared for bands that sounded like they were playing roughly the same few songs over and over. Good prog is fresh and original, providing a journey of sound and mood. I don't care if hipsters think it's overblown. As Rick said to the crowd, 'Your boos mean nothing. I've seen what makes you cheer'.
One of the things that makes prog great and unique to me, is the art of connecting completely different themes and structures together in a perfect way, or an interesting way. It´s the journey it takes me on, the wings that prog can give me, that makes the genre so awesome. Talking about the good prog, of course.
GREAT Video, Andy!
Loving hearing your deep, philosophical rants!
The great classic prog bands all hit a sweet spot before either disappearing up their own arse (Topographic Oceans) or becoming a sad diluted mockery of what had gone before (And Then There Were Three, Giant For A Day Works 2).
But for that short space of time, my goodness, we got some of the finest pieces of music ever created.
great stuff, look forward to part 2
Great video Andy.
Thanks for this deep analysis.
Wow. This was a superb listen. Great work Andy thanks.
I love being duped by you Andy. Your more esoteric subjects are always my favourite videos by you.
Thank You...sometimes I forget this aspect...
Well articulated sir.
I am Prog head (more or less). I like your observation on this subject and on art and music in general. So many good points. A good lecture and lesson on the subject I must say.
Great video Andy. I found it very thought provoking.
I think I was drawn to Prog in the early 70’s because we didn’t have much else that was musically interesting. I love a good song. Many from the Beatles , Neil Young, Steve Miller and so many others I look back on with wonderful memories. I was also a weird kid in that I’d listen to Jazz Radio in grade school. I was fascinated with with it.
I think it is not uncommon as a teenager to look for your own music from your generation.
So we lived on Hendrix, Zeppelin, Black Sabbath…. But where do we go from here.
Paul & Linda & Wings. ??
For me it was Zappa, Yes, Jethro Tull and King Crimson. A few years later I discovered Return to Forever And Mahavishnu.
I agree with your thoughts on this ….. but I’d like to add a point.
What else did we have?
I loved thick moving music that I could enjoy and at the same time wonder what the **** .
are they doing?
so when you were tapping your foot to Narnia a few years earlier, and looking for your generations music as a teenager… I loved Starless off Red, and Barriemore Barlow was a favorite. My point being, outside of Zappa what else was there?
* Nefertiti - - Miles with Tony Williams was what I was thinking of.
Nardis I love too. Oh, thanks for auto correct…. Narnia ?
Sounds like the name of a Chocolate Biscuit.
Spot on. Progressive Rock is deep, diverse, it evolved. Great video. Thank you.
One of your best rants ever! Your idea that great art is a balance between perfectionism and hedonism is really insightful... I have a version of that statement that I'm always broadcasting to fellow musicians or my students: that the best music is "music for your head AND your feet".
Hedonism and perfection. The grid. Love it.
(Doesn't only apply to art either!)
This evening's wind-down viewing will be part 2. Excited.
Keep flying the prog flag fine sir!
Brilliant video Andy. Very thought provoking.
Watch out for the follow up this Friday....
Great presentation and very persuasive theory regarding successful art and the balancing of chaos / order, emotion / rationality, left brain / right brain, etc. Good prog does this better than any other music I've heard -- simultaneously satisfying the heart and the mind in a truly next level way.
Bang on, Andy. Can't wait for Part Two.
I get really mean about prog fans.....
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Good - should be a laugh :)
Thanks, Andy, as always. It was somewhat philosophical but immensely enjoyable, nonetheless. I'm heavily into classical music of all kinds, but I love progressive rock as much as anything.
Excellent philosophical discussion of progressive music.
For what it's worth, here's my take: As humans we like structure, we crave our comfort zone and 90% of our art, literature and music reflects that, don't be challenging. Then people like Jonathan Swift, Johannes Kepler and Cyrano Bergerac challenged that by using the novel in a new way, which, as technology improves leads us to Jules Verne and H. G. Wells moving further into the question of What If..., new musical forms brought in from Africa and India challenge what the Western world considers music, pushing the boundaries of the comfort zone (I remember my grandfather who was born in 1888, stating foreign music was not music), however, still, 90% was rooted in structure.
Then, in 1959, William Burroughs writes Naked Lunch, a book that pushed the accepted format of the novel way beyond its boundaries and the "beat" generation is born, Kerouac, Ginsberg and Cummings pushing the boundaries of poetry and writing, Picasso pushing the boundaries of art even beyond Monet, all leading to sci Fi writers like J. G. Ballard, Philip K. Dick, Harlan Ellison and Samuel Delany pushing the boundaries of the traditional view of writing, wanting to work well outside of the comfort zone.
This leads to the counter culture, a generation not wanting to be "establishment" and enter Frank Zappa, Robert Fripp and Peter Hamill who want to take music and keep pushing it to see how far it can go beyond accepted boundaries. Pioneering jazz musicians like Miles Davies and John Coltrane now get way beyond their comfort zone and push it to the limit, all of these progressing art beyond the accepted norm.
Where do we go from here? Progression still happens, Christopher Priest has pushed the boundaries of the novel still further and Steven Wilson is pushing the boundaries of music and technology even further.
So much neo prog is just prog in its comfort zone and is not progressive, prog, to be truly prog must push boundaries.
We must value prog because without progression we stagnate.
Reffed up today!
Prog forever
Great video. Love your enthusiasm Andy. You mentioned that Prog removed the blues from rock music. This could also apply to krautrock. What do you think about that genre? Is a band like Can of a Prog band to you?
As a more recent subscriber, I have to say that I think this is the best vid I’ve seen from you,( apart from, ‘maybe’, your vid championing ‘The Feeling’, as that has genuinely ended up generating a fantastic section of my playlist).
I can see a number of your utterances over multiple vids now distilling down into more concretely aligned sequential concepts, pushing more into grand narrative territory. Nothing you’ve said that I’d particularly, or even specifically, disagree with, and I particularly liked your allusion to cycles of death and rebirth, via contraction and expansion musically, which seemed to echo aspects of Eastern philosophy and Traditionalist Philosophy.
Not so much a disagreement
, as an expansion, would be to be aware that another layer to this is the relationship between the equally contextual, contingent aspects of grand
narratives and the purely subjective. I came to all these musical movements post punk and so experienced them devoid of the more specific cultural aspects. More musically pure if you will,( holding some of Wittgenstein’s arguments in abeyance there to make my point lol).
Also to be aware of the overt politicisation of music practiced by music journalists.
To be a little more specific, I must also state, that I’m not necessarily a particular champion or even advocate of Eastern or Traditionalist Philosophy, but merely point out that your argument has Philosophical underpinnings to a loose degree.
Great vid.
Yes...my argument does have philosphical underpinnings...but I am a musician not a philosopher...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer well, philosophy should, and does, share with music the fact that there is no bar on entry to the club. Everyone is welcome to participate, and to talk about music at the level you are doing will mean that you’re going to get a bit
philosophical. Plus, it’s a lot more accurate, both musically and philosophically, than the sneering anti Prog journalism practiced by the type of music journalists that you referred to within your piece. Looking forward to part 2.
I enjoyed this video a lot. The idea of the pendulum swing from hedonism to perfectionism was interesting and enlightening.
You said that Tubular Bells couldn't have been made without certain technology. The technology drove the music to an extent. That made me think about how science has been driven by craftsmen and engineers. The people who produced powerful high-quality lenses allowed scientists to see what is invisible to the naked eye and make huge progress, which would not otherwise be possible. Synthesisers and cheap recording equipment allowed almost anyone to produce their own music. But what is the next technological breakthrough that will push music forward? Maybe a direct link between a composers brain and a synthesiser, so that music can be thought into existence without all the messy learning to play an instrument.
I think it will be AI...music made for the first time ny non humans...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer what a horrid thought but sadly you may be right.
I always feel that I have to start comments on this channel by disclosing that I am not a genuine prog geek so you can dismiss me as a heretic if you wish. I do not listen to prog music per se but I have listened to a number of albums that seem to be classified as prog. My reaction to prog simply is that when it works it is truly magnificent. For example, Close to the Edge and U.K.'s debut album are two of my all time favorite albums. However, when prog does not work it is an unmitigated disaster and makes a great substitute for the Chinese water torture. Anyway, the critics view that prog is overblown and pretentious applies quite well to the prog that doesn't work.
David McGowan's book-'Weird Scenes inside The Canyon' gives an interesting twist on the 60's 'scene'...Zappa,Stiils,John Phillips,America,Crosby,Gram Parsons,Jim Morrison etc all seemed to have parents connected to the military/intelligence complex to a bizzare extent.A fascinating albeit,perturbing read.
Good stuff,
I would say that we cannot come to a singular moment from an infinite stretch of time, because then infinity must have ended, and therefore time is not infinite, just incomprehensibly long.
The balance of emotions and thoughts, passion vs. perfection is one that I have considered often but not in relation to music, but it makes perfect sense here as always do start raw and then go to refinement in all things. But it relates to all things in modern society for instance furniture that used to be hand crafted and designed and now is precisely machined. But will we ever get stuck in our journey toward the one, or is the one another infinity of its own?
English aesthetic, I have that so deeply that I still can't dig a lot of simple musics nor too tightly controlled like the genre specific channels of music where you just play the charts, and never bring a flying V to a safe Jazz gig. Nor an electric bass. Or Classical pits of doom where you're just a robot playing exact notes like a piano roll. The electric element of prog now finds a new way to progress. For me it's been learning to make whatever strange and twisted sounds my taste desires with acoustic and analog electric instruments. To train my voice to be sensitive and strong with exact control and also ability to jam at ever level in normal singing registers, that Classical boxes would say I can't do because I'm a baritone; au contraire! That's just my lazy place. How high do you want to go? How low? You call it fry; I call it my droning monk or purring lion. The English countryside has a Moon line running through it for me, with a Venus rising line that passes right through the channel between Paris and London. Never been there, but taking in the musics jived with me big time in my youth. The big forests and big ocean of my homeland is only a little bit further South by latitude, and the inland valleys are more mountainous even than mainland Europe, but the sounds of bands like Yes, The Beatles, King Crimson, Led Zeppelin lit up my appreciation for music and life in general when I was in high school. I have tendencies like a monk, so I derive pleasure from sitting and playing guitar calisthenics, or droning long tones on my flute and feeling my way into being able to adjust more levels of perception in how I shape my face and feel my fingers, which makes my guitar playing and singing more free and also more exact so as to match whatever pattern I want to follow, or take off on improvisation that fits the theme of the musical habitat I'm in. Grunge is the local habitat and never sat well with me. Punk in general, uff da. It's too much one thing and not enough the other. Music I can play drunk isn't very interesting to me actually. It's far more pleasing to be able to play like Rush did when they made Moving Pictures. And then do things more like Bitches Brew into A Silent Way and a nod to Jethro Tull besides.
If you every read the fist edition of Rollings Stone's Encyclopedia of Rock, it is filled with glowing reviews of prog's early 1970's output. Yet, somehow, for later and subsequent editions, they shamefully reedited the reviews and slammed albums such as Close to the Edge, Red, etc., because it was more important for them to retain, what they perceived to be, their indie cred....Well, the magazine was run by Jann Wenner...the same hack who is the gatekeeper for the ridiculousness known as the R&R Hall of Fame.
Hey did you play on hyperventilate ??? Wow on that piece with a super guitar solo ? Absolutly stunning .! Admiration from France man .
I did!....sort of....
Some of your evocation about hedonism reminds me, academically, of Hebert Marcuse's concept about Unsublimated Repression etc in Eros and Civilization. I'd have to review it again... Maybe make a concept album. Lol 🍁⚛️🍄
Love the way you don't look at the camera! First thing I was taught in media studies, never get the subject looking at the camera! BTW - how good was Fusion 5?
Amazing...Mad Fellaz!!! and Henge...and my mates Magenta...
Using your "perfectionism vs emotionalism" formulation, I guess Robert Fripp expressed it one way by saying he was reaching for something that had the ferocity of Hendrix, but played as if Hendrix was channeling Bartok.
I’ve been meaning to ask if you think Wishbone Ash is progrock. Their album Argus is amazing.
I came here for the fusion and jazz talk, actually, and for the thought-provoking music talk. I just can't get into prog, and it's not for lack of trying. I don't value virtuosity as much as you do, but I jazz puts virtuosity right up front, and I love it, so it's not just that.
Quite a few times, I've really made an effort to enjoy Genesis especially (who have a bit of humor to them, which I think some prog bands sorely lack, and it does start to sound ponderous if not pretentious), and it just won't happen. Also many others... Gentle Giant, Camel, lots of them, I went back after many years and listened to Thick As A Brick the other week after you mentioned it on your Great Prog Albums vid, and yeah, no. I like some bands that don't really feel proggy--Gong, Zappa...but the proggy prog is beyond my reach, and there are quite a few bands that I really dislike hearing.
I've probably made some disparaging remarks about prog in my time, which isn't good...literally, feelings can get hurt when you dump on art that people love. But now, the best I can do is respect prog from a distance. Just not on my wavelength, most of it, wouldn't want to try to say why, that would sound like dumping on it. Prog has been dumped on enough by people like me, that much is entirely true.
Go and listen to And You and I by Yes...nothing to do with virtuosity, just incredible rock music...
T Y for the very engaging speech There is a consensus that music can be art. (But does not have to be mandatory) Progressive rock music can be art. But it doesn't necessarily need "British aesthetics" for this.
The American Frank Zappa has prog. Rock pieces without B Ae The Germans Schicke Führs Fröhling have prog. rock pieces without B Ae
The Italians Area have prog. Rock pieces without B Ae
and many others
Otherwise we are now waiting for Rain Vol.2
Only the music itself is the proof
To think there was a prog band called Garden Shed...
I loved your analysis and defence of prog. Just wondering have you ever listened to Television? From when Marquee Moon was released I have thought it existed at the intersection of prog and punk
There are many bands that represent this....
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer True. But I feel that Television gets missed in the broader discussion except as a footnote in the history of US punk.
agreed
I'd love to hear your take on Cardiacs, a genious mix of prog and punk.
I have spoken about them in a recent video. I love them but don'tr know much about them
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Thank you, I will try to find it!
Yes, Cardiacs always were a bit "underground", weren't they? I feel they too carry some of the English estetics you talk about, even though it's a mental version of it.
Crikey-you were a handsome fella in your youth Andy
have you talked about Van Der Graaf Generator in any of your videos?
I wish he'd talk about Mahavishnu Orchestra from time to time
Do you lie awake at night thinking about this stuff Andy or are you working on a book/thesis per chance ?
The universe's ultimate goal 😁
Interesting video.
But you ask how can you play the blues if you’re a British person.
Well can a British person play Jazz?
I would say yes.
Andy I get so frustrated with reaction channels who flee or mention progressive bands and don't like time changes ffs that's exactly why I love progressive music takes you somewhere else I put it down to ignorance
The reason Prog videos are the most clicked on is maybe because your fan base and music fan bases are 40-60 year olds. I find that many of us as we age appreciate prog much more.
In a hundred years, if we make it that far as a species, those prog masterpieces (1969-75) will be viewed in the same way we now view classical era masterworks, for the reasons you point to. I don’t think we fully appreciate just how influential prog has been, and will be into the future. I doubt music lovers and laypeople of Bach’s era had any idea how far reaching his influence would be; to them, he was just a really good church music guy or weirdo.
Bach was pretty much forgotten for one hundred years until Felix Mendelssohn championed his music. And even that might not have happened if there weren't family connections between the two.
TOP
Andy, you've been sparking on all 8 cylinders, bam! 👽⚛️
Pretentious Rock Observes Groove
Prog is about organized chaos ramped up. Reality is just the same. Sheep humans follow each other with pop. They live with their illusions. The truth is hard & most people don't want it. Men want women & women want fashion. Fashion follows the herd which is blind.
"Cahos and order" ? Are you a Peterson fan ? I am. This guy is the best thing that's happened to our western societies in the last 20 years.
The Damned ? The Stranglers ? Didn't expect to hear about those two bands who happen to be 2 alltime favorites of mine...
Deffo a band with 'prog' undercurrents,the late great Dave Greenfield element.A brutally beautiful blending of punk and prog and a band i personally rate amongst the very best from our shores.ruclips.net/video/mePXtiedEmg/видео.html
Peterson strikes me as the opposite of prog. Jordan P. Is the antithesis to the epitome of the cultural 1960s which prog is born under. Would peterson support civil rights? Even though he also utilizes Carl Jung, which séems prog, but the collective psyche is not only unprovable, much of such stuff has been de-legitamized. Jordan is a pseudo intellectual. He doesn't really understand the terminology of the higher philosophy he skirts into, neither does he understand his straw boogieman, I e Marxism, regardless of whether Marx was right or not, as exhibited in his debate with Slavoj Zizek, who is on another level. Thank God Roger waters has remained political. John Lennon, Jim Morrison, when our radical artists back. I regret your errant post sir, however I respect you like the prog. All just bricks in the wall , with artists banging on it to let the poor through... Cheers ☯️
@@Gandalflebowski777 You're entitled to your own opinion. Mine is that Peterson is the best thing that's happened to our western societies in the last 20 years. And he's actually winning the culture war, with a few other people that struggle against wokism, cancel culture, gender theories and other ideologies that verge on pure madness.
I do think it's good.
The fact is....
I LIKE IT!
So what makes Prog great is Prog.
Pure lsd helped ..do you think Jon Anderson (for example) would have been so creative without that particular experience?
I think there is a great market for old rock stars to gain cred for 50 year old drug experiences
I clicked 10 times . Am I entitled to a lollypop now ?
IQ , Magenta, Pendragon , have a few .
Rain ?????? I have one album from Rain ....but if I am not wrong that is/was a one-man band . The album is Cerulian Blue . Am I wrong ?
Anything is possible... everything is permissible... 😉
There is no perfection in art because it is subjective. Perfect pitch or time is an artefact of the art. Concert pianists don't compose. Chuck Berry did. Concert pianists can come from humble beginnings who sweat to prosecute their natural gifts. Progressive music reflects the human need to eschew boredom and develop new ideas commensurate with one's individual ability. Increased complexity doesn't not necessarily mean a closer path to perfection. It could result in an ugly mess. A simple Chuck Berry song can approach being a perfect simple song, whatever that means. The human relationship to art has always been much more than hedonism - it goes to an innate spiritual need for expression and understanding, like 60 000 year old Aboriginal rock paintings. All modern music genres have influenced each other. But take the blues out, and you risk a loss of soul to become egotistically driven by indulgent virtuosity. Existence is chaos. Balance is our attempt to mitigate the chaos by controlling some things through our choices for some predictability. Some jazz music is better than prog, as is the case for all genres, and vice versa. There is no shortage of people who can compose complex music, but how popular might those compositions be. Musicians have a vested, natural and egotistical interest in technical competency and are not a representative sample of music listeners.
pop music is a comic, progressive music is an Arthur C. Clarke novel
Put your drum sticks on the shelf and become a philosopher or something!
You only have to look at so many extreme metal bands who are highly influenced by prog rock.
Opeth a good example.
Again the great classical composers if alive today would play/love progressive metal and prog rock over the top and yes dare I say pretentious in the nicest way.
Like the a*se holes who hate keyboards
odd time signatures and strange chord progressions.
Nietzsche: THE BIRTH OF TRAGEDY. Balance of Apollo Dionysus Right on... ☯️☯️
Yes...where my definition of art comes from
We appreciate you're bringing these subjects up. Culture is relevant. Even the birth of tragedy expounds on heralding Wagner as the epitome of high art while using the Ring mythology , Tolkien's Saxon roots.... as both a Apollonian mental concept while expressing it viscerally with the most massive orchestra loud ensemble. All very prog. Nietzsche's ideal, at least til Wagner became an anti semites... But look at the effect of that work on the art and Prog of The Doors. My ex bandmate plays with them. We are waiting for the summer Rain
you let me remember Kriegers words
Nietzsche killed Morrison
Where was Apollo as antidot/antideath to the intoxication?
What makes prog great? Simple answer, LISTEN.
...to the flower people
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer turn it up to 11.
Andy could you please use a louder chair, we can still hear what your saying
I accidentally sat on my drum stool which was very squeaky that day. My videos are never perfect...they are about prog and they aren't perfect...there is a balance there....kind of, what I was on about in the video....??
If you put Prig in the title of all your videos spell it Praaaaawwwg.
Will that bring in more viewers?
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer hahahah, I dunno, maybe.
it bleeeeew my maind
This gentleman is insanely distinquished looking.
You only have to look at so many extreme metal bands who are highly influenced by prog rock.
Opeth a good example.
Again the great classical composers if alive today would play/love progressive metal and prog rock over the top and yes dare I say pretentious in the nicest way.
Like the a*se holes who hate keyboards