Don't forget I have a thing where you can vote your opinion and it would be great to see what the majority opinion actually is from higher numbers. Here: WANT TO VOTE? Go HERE: ruclips.net/channel/UCuuNmrkOEmTPnz4Dcc-Hi5wcommunity and if you can't actually vote there then thanks for at least trying... tell me if the TONEX 'changes everything' as they say?
Hypothetical thought - Now I own a Tone X, how do I hear it? (Headphones? Not gonna sound like a full stack!?) do I plug it into my $3000 Studio computer? AND $5000 monitors? Does it make sound? No? Hummm odd. So I plug it into a $50,000 PA at the gig? How do I practice? $2000 FRFR Cabinets? Oh just plug it into your $6000 Marshall plexi stack?! If so….why wouldn’t I just plug in directly and skip this nonsense?!? Everyone forgets you still need Power AND Speakers on top of the $400 pedal, but I digress. Please address this issue with your audience. Someone in the spotlight needs to point out this FACT. The TONE X Costs a lot MORE than just the hardware, let alone the super computer needed to run the Amplitube program, the DAW, and plug ins (NO FX) with out latency or at least LOW latency. This is a HUGE topic EVERYONE is skipping. #justsaying
Who realistically practices with a Marshal stack at home? I have no one in the house that would complain about doing that, but still I don’t. I practice what I’m not good at yet and therefore not something I would want to subject the rest of my household let alone neighborhood to. And these days I’ve yet to meet any band that isn’t practicing with a PA. Further, a $400 pedal and a couple of PA speakers(if you need to be stereo)will likely cost you about $1200 total. Compare that to a Marshal Half Stack which will cost you about $2000 ($4000 if you need to be stereo 😂)to get into the game with. Add the cost of Yamaha THR if you don’t want to get divorced. And lastly, if you were paying attention, the ToneX is a pedal. No computer necessary. Though a basic one will help make the library of amps easier to deal with. Obviously you have something that will suffice because you are typing here on RUclips.
I’m going to try the Tonex through my Headrush monitor hope that sounds good. Yes synergy concept has been done before and I have a Randall RM 100, this seems cooler like you can have 2 modules with 2 channels and all of a sudden you have 4 channels of boutique pre amps that are designed with the corresponding companies . This seems like an upgrade from Egnator and Randall , and you can get this into a lighter weight rack . Worth looking into , no rush though. I’ll hear what it sounds like in a few weeks seeing steve Vai , he uses them , I would get different modules though.
Nobody is saying amps are dead, some people are saying modeling is dead. Amp capture technology is rapidly evolving and getting closer to the real thing.
the only problem with the amp captute is that any time you try to modify captured amp with the "digital potentiometers" you are loosing completely the accuracy of the capture so it is actually pretty difficult to have the sound for every occasion - this is where modeling wins in my opinion
They’re all tools. You can use several tools to get the job done. I just use whatever sounds/works best for the situation. I love tube amp, profilers and modellers. They’re all fun!
For recording, these modellers are brilliant. Having spent 40+ years as a guitarist trying to move from studio to studio, trying to recreate the sound I want to record in different rooms with a plethora of mics, I can now happily work away at home and send my parts to the producer with none of the hassle of the past. For live work, I'm happier with a few pedals and my Fender/Marshall Bluesbreaker combination but... getting older now, gigging is not as regular so generally the old monster tube amps are just sulking in the spare room. Amps, guitars, effects, modellers are, as you say, all tools for making music. Oh and the modeller I use? The humble Headrush MX5 with about 12 presets I use regularly. If it's good enough for the people I work with - including the BBC - then it is good enough for me. It's a brilliant, if confusing, time to play guitar and especially to be beginning as a guitarist. Although I do wonder whether part of the player I am, and many others from the 70s onwards, is down to the limitations we all faced before the massive leap forward in technology and cheap, but excellent guitars, amps, etc? There is a "tyranny of choice" out there, but thankfully it's all so bloody good, you can't go wrong whatever you buy. Anything's got to be better than a crap Avon Les Paul copy with egg slicer action and a bad transistor 50 watt amp from the local secondhand store that I started on lol :)
Playing the guitar is not just about the sound, but also the pressure, the feeling. It's an emotional thing. If I have a small flat in the centre and I just can't put a proper machine in there, then profiling is great because at least I can enjoy the sound. I wouldn't be able to use a normal machine there anyway. But on stage I want a proper amp with an amp behind me, not some FRFR.
I might have agreed once, and it would still be my preference but I know a lot of seasoned pros who gig without amps and sound better than you and I put together. It's not because they don't like the tube sounds, they do, it's almost completely down to practicality.
lmao just run your modeler through some speakers. The null test proves irrefutably that technologies behind Tonex or NAM are already 99,x% there, everything else is in the real of religion / opinion.
I don't think all the other instruments are obsolete, but I sure like being able to capture my hand-built boutique amps and get the same sound and feel in a little pedal that costs $400. "Real" amps are awesome but they are also expensive, heavy and they get banged up - keeping them in the studio is an amazing thing!
Well I can agree that it's interesting stuff, but hardly groundbreaking technology as I have been doing that since 2011 with a Kemper. Sadly though, I have not a single profiler or modeler that is creating the same feel of the tube amp in question. The tones are good, but just plug in a 1959HW Marshall and be in wonder... there really is little that is the same in comparison of any of them. Of course I would be 'thrown out' of the venue :) but that's another story. Thanks for the post and for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial The problem is, you have to crank up that Marshall to 'be in wonder'. Often times, for a lot of people, it's not an option, for many different reasons.
I think tonex, due it's price, will allow more people access to profiling. In near future nux, hotone, valeton, donner etc... will go to produsce their own profiler too. In my opinion cheaper tube amps will tend to disappear, while the higher end ones will still exist (as for painting/photography, film/digital photos). For me modeling has more prospects for improvement in the future than profiling, but requires much more investment in each individual amp, costs that companies do not have with profiling, where the work is done by the user. By the way Tonex software allowed me to find my next tube amp :) (Naturally using the models made by the same user of multiple amplifiers, I don't think it's useful to use models made by different people to make this choice)
I think that the tube amps will slowly disappear too. That was really the reason for this video... and thinking about the people that build those amps... Ha great point on the Tonex software and your amp choice :) and also check the Kemper player if you get a chance... very good tones. Thanks for watching BTW.
I don’t think most people think that modellers and tube amps are the same things. They serve different purposes and have their respective strengths. The reality is that carrying big amps around is a pain in the ass and products like this fix that problem
Just trust me on this... many people think the simulators are the same or better than the real amps. I certainly am not one of them, and as you say there are differences for sure. Thanks for watching.
Modelers will take a hit in sales for the next couple years, but they will innovate and use machine learning within their modeling to go beyond just simple captures and the current modeling in the next 2-5 years. I think what's phenomenal about TONEX is it exposes more young guys/gals to what a REAL tube amp SHOULD sound and feel like, and might even drive tube amp sales as people find their favorites in profiles and say "I want that at home". I love tube amps.. as well as analog pedals. They will never go away for me, but I love that I can profile them and take a more compact/reliable version to a gig or practice and easily recall presets without having to turn dials.
Will the PHOTOcapture type unit Kemper/Tonex do Feedback from a snapshot type preset??? I know the modeller type does, I can do it with my vox tonelab se, just dial in higher gain/without a noise gate turned on.
Problem is, that many of the young guys will actually have NEVER even played a real tube amp. Plug in to a JMP100 Plexi, crank it through 4x12 and THEN you can say that you really know what tube amps are about... and later they tame the volumes :) Thanks for watching.
The topic of amp modelers versus actual tube amps isn’t so easy. In my humble opinion, I think the amp modelers have convenience and portability on their side. Obviously, someone who gigs regularly may consider that a terrific asset when trying to decide what to get. And yes, amp modeling and tone matching has come a long way over the years, so to be quite honest, the things sound not half bad! But…. (There’s always a but)! I myself own a Mesa Boogie JP2C, (with a Mesa Boogie Mark V before that) along with a pedalboard filled with all kinds of goodies. Maybe this is just silly, but when I plug into that amp and lock in my tone with the perfect effect for that moment, there’s nothing else quite like it. Sure, the amp modelers can give you all that too, but they can’t replicate the pride and passion I have for doing it all from the Mesa (and pedals) that I have working for me. The fine people at Mesa Boogie (and other amp companies) worked countless hours to get you the tones that give you goosebumps when you play! Playing out of a device that can copy something great is fine and all, but it just isn’t the same, and that’s all there is to it. Maybe I’m nuts (actually, I know I am), but that’s just how I feel. Is it a pain in the ass to carry all the stuff around (head, 2x12 cab, and pedalboard) when playing a show? Of course! But once I’m up and running, I couldn’t be happier, and wouldn’t trade it for the world. If I gigged regularly, perhaps I’d feel a different way, but I don’t. Just my thoughts. Take ‘em or leave em, but I’m with ya Tony. I hope the tube amps and companies that supply them stay around for quite some time. Cheers, and best to you and your family. Lenny Melzer
Lenny that's it - its all about the 'feel' (and of course the tone) but I do think the feel with a real amp is quite different. The digital stuff gets sort of near but lacks that feel and tends to remain 'digital' if you get me. The real amp when played through is very much more inspirational because of that mix of the two and there is no doubt in my mind that in my case at least the best results I can muster come from real tube amps turned up with a decent guitar. And here's a question... wem all logged those tube amps for years right? Are these new guys playing guitars whimps? :) (I can hear some now - 'I can't pick it up... booo hooo') just making people smile that's all! Thanks for the great post and for watching.
Really? Well of course that's OK but maybe some of it can be frustrating, especially when the software won't install on industry standard equipment... tube amps just don't have that problem...
@@johnb4024 I got that problem in a Vox right now, it only comes or shows up once the amp is well warmed up, someone told me when it comes to tap it with a pencil to find which one it is. And where to buy some NEW tubes??
People are saying only older people are buying actual amps anymore. I don’t think so. I really think Amos and digital tech can coexist. There’s a time and place for using both. It’s exciting that you can take any tone in your pocket, but it’s just not the same experience as having a real deal amp - and not just tube amps, but solid state too. You just dial it in quickly and get to playing faster. That’s not possible with all this tech. You have to go digging through profiles and tones to find good examples of just what you’re after, and even then, you still have to plug into something - a cab, combo amp, PA, headphones, etc. e people supposed to hear the music without having the old school solutions? I can see where a TONEX and other tech can help people with limited money and space. I can see where it would be nice for gigging artists not to have to lug giant pieces of gear to venues. But overall, the TONEX is only as good as it’s examples and you’re gonna need to amplify the sound because the TONEX is essentially like a CD player without speakers. Gotta have a way to hear the profiles. Amps aren’t going anywhere, folks. 😉 😊
Sadly... I'm older (ho ho ho) and I buy lots of digital gear AND tube amps, and guitars, and pedals and... fill in the dots :) You are exactly right IMO re the digital stuff. Honestly I'm not biased either, when the digital gear gets to the same place I'll be the first to agree, but it's still off a while I think. Amplified digital? Kemper. :) Those sound pretty good for 12 years - but that's a 12 year old device... surely past its sell by date. I expect to see a new Kemper sometime before they stop making the chips! Thanks for watching and the post.
Opposite: more Tube Amps will be bought to be profiled When Kemper was being demo'd in 2011 it was directed at Studios to profile the amp tone the Artist got in case of much later overdubs were needed and the profile could be used by the Artist on Tour to reporduce their Amp tone saving freight costs. Same still applies but someone has to create the new Amp tone everyone wants
Different generations want different gear.. I was lucky enough to buy a Engl E650 when I was 18 so I could play live and practice with a 'real' tube amp. But I couldn't affort a 2200 euro Dual Rectifier... Still can't! So getting great tones at a small price is great for creativity and new guitar players to start with great gear as well... I think it's great that great tones are becoming more affordable! Sorry for my bad english ;) Cheers from the Netherlands!
I totally feel your frustration. At last in my guitar playing journey, I’ve got a collection of three valve amps - A Fender Princeton 65, VOX AC15C1X, and a Marshall JTM Studio 20 watt combo. And now I feel like they’re becoming redundant with all the new tech. It pains me to have to now think of selling this gear on, to be in line with the ‘evolution’. Great channel, Tony, really like your content.
Thanks for the kind words. Don't sell the amps... you might well regret it later. I have seen, used and owned most simulators and while the 'fan boys' love them, ask the tube guys what they think and its a different story. The 'feel' is generally missing from the simulators. Nearest? probably Kemper. Look cool amps there too. :) Thanks for watching.
My father worked in a coal mine. Finally they were all closed so he had to search another job. My point is that everything evolves. Will this capturing/modeling technology take tube amp manufacturers out of bussiness? I doubt it but people will always adapt to new circumstances. They will find another job. Where doors are closed other ones are gonna open. This whole digital thing is here to stay and will evolve rapidly. More and more guitar players are making music in their bedrooms in their small appartments. A tube amp has no use here because you cannot use them at their sweet spot without getting in trouble with your neighbours and a tube amp at 0.5-1 volume sounds nothing better then a modeler/profiler anyway. The music bussiness has changed. More silent stages appear. In our town you are not allowed anymore to bring your amp with cab. More and more cities are doing the same. Governement rules... Pfff. It also saves space in a small pub. We are not allowed anymore to produce more then 95 db in a pub. This digital revolution is far better controllable for the sound engineer/pub holder. My precious tube amps stay at home and I bring these tones with me with the Tonex pedal. All the digital devices nowadays produce accurate tones. It's a matter of choice if you want build in effects or not. It's the monitoring system that gives you an amp in a room sound/feel or not. These current FRFR speakers/wedges sound like shit and that can be and will be improved in the next few years. The good old times with a blasting marshall tube amp with 412 behind you are gone. It's a pitty but life goes on. Times are changing. And now I grab a beer. Cheers
It’s not going to be the death of modelers or amps in the next decade or so, but you can certainly see the trend if you look at a larger time frame. Many younger guitar players are not as convinced in the old school belief that classic tube amps just sound better than captures or digital modelers. I think that was the case 10-15 years ago, but the difference is getting smaller and smaller every few years. And younger players I speak to in our shop don’t hear enough of a tone difference to justify the huge price difference. More and more of them are going digital. Which is a big reason that tube amp sales have been flat while capture and modeler sales have been exploding. And that has been the case even while Axe effects, Kemper, QC, etc are still almost as expensive as a tube amp anyway. So I think the hype with the ToneX is that for the first time, you can get captures from tube amps in a device that costs 1/5th the price of those other devices. That has moved the needle a lot with a big portion of our younger guitar customers. It’s not going to change big budget musicians at all, but it does seem to be having an effect on more budget conscious young guitarists. So just keep an eye on it for the next 10 years or so as some of these young bands grow up and emerge, and then we will truly know how much impact this kind of tech really has on the old school brands.
Good points. Of course, there is no emphasis on what those tube companies might create. I doubt they will 'sit back' and just let others 'take' their tones that they have taken many years to make n the first place. Someone might/could gain with legal protection of those tones and what then? Good points and thanks for watching...
Scarily - there's already a free one! And 'that changes everything again'. :) Welcome to the merry go round. but don't forget the guys that lose their jobs because some device (or software) clones the amp tone that took years to create... its the one thing every one 'forgot' about. Thanks for the post and for watching...
I have tube amps, modelers, many pedals. I’m waiting for my Tonex pedal to come in. 150 amp captures at your feet. Looking forward to trying it out. It is great technology. I’m 61 years young. I don’t play in a band. Use what you want! It’s a great time to be a guitarist!!! Ok you have your beloved amp, cab, and fx. Hopefully you have people to help you move it around. You have to mic it up to play your gig or record it. The tonex pedal solves a lot of issues. Play any amp out there bye loading it on to your pedal via computer. Most people can’t even tell the difference if it’s a real amp or a capture. Especially in a mix most people don’t care as long as it sounds good!!! Isn’t that all that matters good tone. And having fun playing. Some people want to have a huge tube amp collection. Others want to have great tone!! There’s no right or wrong. I prefer to have all the choices I can!! I have thought about selling my amps! I don’t even use them anymore. But you always take a beating when you sell gear!!
You SHOULD check the Kemper player... it has 22000 profiles of amps that are very good. Build is excellent too... thanks for the info on your setup too and thanks for watching.
I don't think amp modelers will ever put tube amp manufacturers out of business. What will hurt the tube amp manufacturers the most is availability of the tubes they have designed into their amps to get their particular sound. The tube design and the way they are design into and used by the circuits is what gives these tube amps their signature sound. When the manufacturers of the specific tubes that go into these tube amps go out of business, like a couple have already in Germany, that is what will cause tube amp manufactures to start to have problems and could cause them to close their doors just because of the unavailability of components of their amp's designs. The BS we are seeing from the Central Bank System in this world is what is causing the economic problems for these company's and all other companies in the world. So, let's put the blame for any of these company's going out of business where it truly belongs, on the buttheads that think they can control the world and us with their false and inflated monetary systems. The only thing that amp profilers do is create healthy competition between manufactures to build a better mouse trap to sell to the consumer. Competition is good and beneficial to the consumer in any market.
It's a good point re Tubes (or valves as they say in the UK). But there's far more to it in my experience. Even to the plywood they use at Marshall amps! The lead guy said that they had trouble sourcing the really good plywood that they are known for using these days in the cabinets - he said there were issues with poor quality coming through that they were stopping and it had been solved recently. But in my own experience the electronic components remain a real pain for most manufacturers - its not 'just' tubes. I'm not entirely sure that it's just central banks or the other stuff that could be blamed though. Marshall Group (after the sale to a partner company) is worth $350 Million so its not a money shortage problem really. Remember that profilers have been around for at least 11 years (I bought my Kemper in 2011) and the modelers even longer. I can agree with you on the 'control' aspect, I won't post what I might think on all of that - ha some might not like it ;-) I do think you have considered what I said and made a good reply, whereas some guys don't 'get it' about the point I raised. But I can tell you that in manufacturing particularly of components and 'chips' etc. it all remains hard work really. Thanks for a good post and for watching too.
I actually bought myself an Engl Steve Morse signature amp a couple of months ago after using just my Helix for years. I love my Helix and I will always use it for effects and midi switching for my amp. And I'm very happy that I can use it at home into my Two Notes Captor with a good IR. And sound wise, I don't think it matters much, the audience isn't gonna notice any difference. I got myself a tube amp, because I missed the feeling of an actual amp through my Mesa cab. I don't think amps will ever go away, all the profiles and amp models are based on actual amps so
Yes I have said many times that the audience knows generally little and does not care - they are there for the music. It's something often overlooked on the internet stuff. I also use the Helix in a rack and the floor controller for generally effects but sometimes the amp also and it's not bad. The 'feel' of the amp is hard to describe really, but again I agree with that, and its one reason I have about 20 or so... each has its own character I find, even amps with the same tubes etc. ARE different. Thanks for the post and for watching.
That it seems is true sadly and has been for a long time. I started this channel in 2009 because of all of that. I tend to 'break them down' in to what are the following categories: 1. Sales Videos 2.Fans of the gear 3. Argumentative heathens (yes really) 4. Guys that have never actually owned the gear 5. The rest (add your own reasons here). I honestly know very few out there that do similar to what I do (I guess) but I started to create my own reviews because I was absolutely sick of the 1-5 points I mentioned here when all I wanted was a truthful reflective opinion so I could buy whatever it was or not. These days I never trust reviews its sad to say. A good point and thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial I agree. 95% of RUclipsrs reiterate the EXACT same scripted bullet points of any given new product. Not to mention use crappy factory presets and uninspired playing.
I forgot to mention, before I sell any real tube amps I plan on exploring the Synergy pre amps , if you haven’t looked into those already, check it out I have a feeling this will be more of a realistic substitution for tube amps . It’s expensive it will take awhile . If all you play is some genre of metal I think you can get by with the Kemper which you have .I will reply when I play around with the Tonex . Cheers !
You know what, those Synergy amps remind me of the Egnater stuff from many years ago... like the Randall Lynch amp (I owned one) and while the idea is a good one for me it all seems like for Synergy that its all been done before. I have a sneaky feeling that Bruce Egnater is hiding in there somewhere :) This is the Randall Lynch Amp I owned... was used by George Lynch in Birmingham England: ruclips.net/video/BeGn8rXrHqQ/видео.htmlsi=negjUgH2-PgNvuKP and thanks for watching.
Love it when people ask me ‘why don’t you buy a helix?’ While looking at my big sky, timeline and iridium on my Pedalboard. ‘Oh, it’s the new thing. Everyone has it!’ 🙄🙄🙄 Like other people pointed out here, it’s not just about the gear. Tone comes from the fingers first. Gear is rather secondary. That’s why a good guitarist sounds amazing even on a cheap squire and a cheap amp. Thanks for this video! Maybe an eye opener for those fanboys out there.
Interesting video. I’ve been using the AFXIII for several years now exclusively for recording into Pro Tools and I’m really happy with it. I’ve owned several different modelers over the years (not Kemper or HELIX) and I think I’ve found the perfect tool for me. I’ve also owned several amps over the years including both tube and solid state. I currently own a Marshall DSL20 head going into a 2x12. All have their place. I actually prefer the tone of the AXEFXIII over the recorded tone of the Marshall, based on my experience. I’m sure the TONEX will find its place too with some people.
I've had a digital studio of some kind set up since the early 2000's (had a tape setup before) and I have tried all kinds of ampsims, IR's and similar guitar tech, including the new Tonex ap. I have often used S-Gear when tracking and still do. I also mic real amps in studio and have only ever gigged with real tube amps. I like all the tech thats available today...pretty cool stuff, but have no intention of getting rid of my tube amps or my guitar pedals/effects and I also don't see any of that stuff disappearing anytime soon.
In a nutshell? Tonex-no delay, no chorus-400 dollars (US)-learning curve is steep to learn and remember where and when you make your settings with all the dual functional dials. Kemper, Helix, Fractal (huge waiting list) and Quad Core-all 1800 + dollars (US) I don't give a flying F**K about modeling-I don't have a set Marshalls from the 60's or 70"s or a 4000 dollar Mesa Boogie any amp for that matter to profile. Correction: I have a Pignose practice amp-Wow-that's in demand isn't it? Only reason I like the Quad Core is the graphic capability to "see" how to add amps, cabs, effects etc. The one large guitar store 1 hour away from me has a Kemper (1700 dollars) that you have to "pay" to demo? I thought I was going to purchase the Tonex but the user interface and no chorus or delay made that decision for me. In my opinion, the Tonex was rushed into production and marketed as a "game changer". (It's not) I seem to recall in the last few weeks there was a submarine that was "rushed" into development and production. We all know how that turned out!! There will always be tube amps-and all the modelers that have profiling capabilities are fighting to be the best (this is a game changer) Absolute BS!! Thank you for your video-especially making the statement that you do not receive any "free" gear.
Well thanks for a post that I generally can agree with! There is much in there that indeed I do agree with. I don't have the 'Quad Core' either sorry, some say they are great and other differ - I guess we're all right really. Yes I really did buy this gear. I have made just a few of the 420 odd videos where I have received the gear but sincerely I always do tell what I find. Some like that and some don't of course, but to make simply sales videos for others is not my cup of tea. I ALWAYS look inside for the things that no one ever shows ;-). Thanks for the post and for watching.
Honestly, I don't do much with ToneX. I have a JetCity JCA22h, Randall RD-5, a German hand-made SS-amp, some expensive, some chinese pedals. The problem is using this stuff when you play and record in your living room, too, not only in your home-studio upstairs. As soon as I start using IRs I consider my whole chain compromised. The world has literally run out of time. When I was young I remember changing loudspeakers, trying pedals, recording with 4-track tape devices (LOL). Now, this seems to me like an alien world. From time to time I go back to my amps, especially the RD-5 which doesn't need a load. But then I think, why not using NAM and start one of my favorite amps I never bought: The Laney GH100. And my god, it sounds and reacts so well. Yes, we will live in a world where many amps will go extinct. With those green and woke parties switching on a 100W amp will also make one hesitate in the future. Sad.
Wow Tony spot on! People don’t stop to consider if there are no real amps around to sample, the sampling software will have nothing to feed off of. Unless in a bizarre twist of AI these machines start to cannibalize one another’s library of tones😮 lol.. I was using my laptop back in 2012 wwith an audio interface and an SM 57 with profiling software that was available back then, before the Kemper hardware really truly became a thing.
This is exactly my point... and Ha I really don't follow where it would end. No new amps, no speakers, no new pedals, nothing... its almost like sowing up your mouth and crawling up your own a****** :) eat yourself? weird... but I guess we live in a 'weird' world these days. I bought a Kemper just a month after launch and there was a real thing going on at that time for sure. There still is with some of them. But you know what, 'this changes everything' is a laughable joke that is repeated (or regurgitated) over and over through time and the current guys that favor the view often agree of the 'seachange' and how its the 'end of the world' which to be honest I doubt that change will 'change everything' as the guys financed to say that conclude. Great cmment and post and thanks... and for watching of course.
Something you didn't touch on - the amp modeller models the whole amp. A ToneX capture is just tiny snapshot of an amp at certain settings. If you deviate from that, then the sound of the original amp is gone. I don't think this has occurred to many people just yet, because they're so busy having orgasms at cloning any amp. I see them in the social media comments, they're thrilled at have snapshots of dozens and dozens of rare boutique amps. These people clearly don't write or record music because you don't use 100x amps when you make an album. You usually use 1 or 2... 3 or 4 at most. These people are just gear nuts frothing over the latest shiny thing and are more interested in collecting tones than writing and recording music. I just recorded a release with my Helix. I used an ENGL with ENGL IR's for my high gain tones, and I used a Roland Jazz Chorus running through the ENGL IR's for my cleans. Two amps. Not 100x. Two. I think modelling is here to stay, and the best route for digital amps will be hybrid units that do both. Clone an amp if you want, but have full models of actual amps. Most guitarists don't actually understand much about audio engineering and guitar tone. They already had unlimited tones with their Helix's etc, because they could use IR's which simulate mics and cabs - the biggest part of where the tone comes from.
Exactly... Thanks. I own a Helix rack and like that but some of the other stuff... nah not for me. But I do like the real deal tube amps too :). Thanks for watching.
Just been having this conversation with my wife. But the flipside is that we have a depletion of raw resource. AI and tech in general will preserve the sounds and in the future, no doubt we will be making sims from sims, a bit like a star trek transporter. Henry Ford would probably have a few comments about electric cars! I'm in my 50s, been playing Orange and Marshalls since I was 14. It's sad to see so much history, science, manufacturing and technical skills being replaced. However, I've played the OR virtual amp in Tonex and it is every bit my old RV50MKI. There is a revolution and like it or not, we have to accept. Rather now than later before we run out of the raw materials and have nothing to play. I guess we are at the cusp of entering into a frenzy of tech development that is going to impact on every aspect of consumerism. Welcome to the future, but not necessarily the one we hoped for.
About ten years ago I created a comedy video (the Focknrollers) and we made some trailers. One was by (the guitarist Carlless Sultana) and he showed making a profile of a profiler :) you're not far off. :) Go on laugh... ruclips.net/video/caEhIa3D6kA/видео.html more at focknrollers.com Am I mad? Likely....
I agree with you. But I also believe that the tube amplifier is absolutely essential for a guitarist who wants to experiment with sounds. Profiling is done on real amplifiers. And a profile, at the moment, consists only of a "snapshot" of the amplifier with precise settings. All the infinite variables that can be extrapolated from an amplifier cannot be contained in a handful of profiles. However it is likely that the cost and convenience of digital will greatly reduce the purchase of tube amplifiers. It already happens. But what's the point for an amateur guitarist to buy a 5,000 euro Friedman if he then has neither the possibility nor the practical tools to exploit it? Who can push a 100 watt Plexi around the house and record with a microphone? Yes, we can use something like a Torpedo Captor and IRs, but how close do we get to digital sound? Is it worth spending so much money? Sure for some people yes, but for most? I will never part with my tube amps, in fact, I will continue to buy more and more. But I will profile them. Digital, as I see it, is a great tool. Unfortunately it will have its drawbacks in the market. We can't do anything about it
The digital connundrum is a sticky wicket currently. I have had many profiling bits of gear. I still never really get what the amp creates -although the 'this changes everything' brigade tell me otherwise. Like you, the amps are not going anywhere. I come from technology since 1981 and have seen many things, vapourware, promised upgrades, even pay now and we might ship someday, no software, you'll know what I mean. There's another aspect to the problem of digital profiling too. NO ONE EVER talks about it but I can and will in a video, but as a short intro, the particular chips used come and go. When those chips cease production - throw it in the trash - because there is no other solution. Ever. Tube amps can at least be 'resurected' one way or another... but not a peep out of those reviewers that are creating reviews for sales only. Sadly. Thanks for the post great points... and thanks for watching.
I think amp modellers, etc. are very convenient and good to record in a DAW. No need to mess with micing up and all that. They are also good for bedroom players who can play thru headphones. The real tube amps are more for serious users and professional musicians and studios They all have their place
I agree, but I would not like to see amp makers, speaker makers and pedal makers all get closed down? That was the serious point behind the video - and the boys with 'this changes everything' are possibly (likely) wrong :) Thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial Hey if solid state did not KILL the tube amp. what chance does Computer/solid state have?? What worrys me more is all this Silent Stage trend going on. no amps on stage, that is really ridiculous, the stage is not a STUDIO. WEIRD. And yet most drummers still prefer acoustic drums/cymbals.
There’s a place for both. People will continue to purchase modelers for the convenience and affordability factor. People will purchase amps for experience they offer. Just like people will continue to both stream music and buy vinyl as well.
What for me is a far more pivotal point which very very few reviewers have mentioned is the fact that the business model means only being able to acccess what you pay for in terms of the number of amp and effects models - even though IM do provide access to a couple of included packs - so you are going to have to pony up for any specific models you need which are not included in those packs, making this potentially considerably more expensive than the starting price point. Personally I disagree with that entire pricing model. And in addition to this, the free software version of the Tonex technology which I downloaded onto my PC really wasn't at all convincing and seemed very limited. Based on what I was able to access I would never have any desire to try out either the Tonex or Tonex One pedals. Compare this with companies like Kemper or Axe-FX who include vast amounts of amp and FX models along with continuous updates and improvements for which no further charge is made. I know which business model I prefer.
Personally the TONEX did not really perform for me, with software problem dating back two years. I asked them but no real reply - why was I surprised. A 'cheap' product is exactly that. You do get the item, the software and bugs included and of course unlike Kemper and FA (well maybe, G66 support maybe but fractal supporting me I doubt that). In any case the lack of support is because of the cost involved. Then your scenario jumps in... now pay up or else. It's typical of many 'cheap' items these days. Great point you made and basically I agree. There is so much better for that extra bit of money I think. Thanks for that post and for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial Thanks Tony. Nonetheless it must be said that the Tonex One would have been a really promising product which before cottoning on to the software financial model we discussed I was really quite excited about. In fact, it wasn’t before downloading the Windows and iOS versions of the trial software and seeing how limited it was that I realised that the Tonex One is likely to remain almost entirely dependent on its software, and that software certainly does not live up to the hype in all the RUclips reviews I’ve watched. In a way I’m glad that I didn’t dive into that particular rabbit hole. By the way Tony, I wondered if you wouldn’t mind answering a question for me? Is it possible to run digital effects between a load box and the amp speaker, rather than from the line out? Sorry if it sounds like a stupid question, but my combo lacks an FX loop, so I’m just looking for ways to use time based effects without being affected by the overdriven signal going into the front end of the preamp.
When you mentioned the idea that the sound people are looking for are ampless. I think there’s more to think about there. Maybe that’s the biggest threat to tube amps; no one remembers or even experienced what they sound and feel like. Then the baseline becomes profilers or modelers. Anything that sounds different is different.
I agree. A few years back I bought a Marshall 1959HW (I had the originals back in early 70's) but until I actually plugged in that amp after very many years of not doing that - I had literally 'forgotten' just how that amp sounded and importantly 'felt'. It really sort of confirms what you said here, its hard to compare if you have NOT done that. I was amazed at how that amp sounds when you plug in and sound IS subjective, but I can say I have never found a single device whether modeler or profile that is 'the same' as that amp, plugged in with its 1960a speakers. I get it... simply because I DID go back and check that amp. I still own it. But when there are no new tube amp designs, no new speakers, no new pedals etc. then the crunch happens. Sadly.
One serious problem is: tube amps have gotten astronomically expensive over the years. For one reason on top of another, the price keeps going up. I bought an original USA-made Peavey 5150 back in the 90's from a local music store for $750. It was brand new. Today, an EVH Stealth 100watt costs $2,400 in the USA. And the damn thing is made in Mexico! Inflation is part of it, but not all of it. Guitar players are always looking for alternatives. The AxeFX-III is super expensive as well. And it's not even an "amp"! It won't drive a 4x12 cab. It's a "pre-amp". We need to start getting away from tubes. The Boss Katana Artist head is a great choice. I also like the Orange Super Crush 100. Leave the tube amps in the recording studios, and RENT them. If you just play at home... stay away from tube amps. Not worth it.
@@KaddysJamKave All tube amps fail. And when they do, you need to get them fixed. Also, tubes don't last forever. Do you have a good source to buy new tubes? And when you install those new tubes, you need to bias them. If you like fiddling with stuff and wasting your money, by all means, go buy used tube amps. It's the hobby within the hobby. I need to practice more, instead of tweaking settings or trying to get my tube amps fixed. Gear is not as important as the player.
@@TheCyberMantis Wow talk about a pessimistic view on reality. Most of your points are not true at all but it would be an awfully lengthy rebuttal that I can't be bothered writing... So you just do you... I have no interest in swaying another person's worldview.
@@TheCyberMantis ok mate... Whatever you say... I better ignore my 30 years of experience and listen to you. I'll sell all 12 of my tube amps right away...
Amp modelers are not killing amps because we use amps to play them through! We use them in conjunction. The difference is Tonex is affordable where as a Kemper/Quad/Axe FX is much more expensive. I think if anything amp heads will be less expenseive in tomorrows market but the cabs will still always be needed for live use. Id like to play a show where we can all use the same Marshall cab and guitarists in the different bands just come along and plug in their amp modeler pedal in, rather than having to mess around change them between bands.
SOME guys don't use amps in the way that might generally spring to mind. And 'amps' covers a multitude of things... take the Kemper powered amp profiler as an example. I get your point of course, but watching companies go bust (or as currently being 'taken over' is not for me a pretty sight, and if companies were to go to the wall, then of course so do the employees... its an important thing to remember, and in my opinion not a great way to watch the demise of tube amp companies - if indeed that would happen. I can buy a PRS MT15 for under £500 and nothing wrong with it. Sure its not at the top of the pile, but its very well made and is a low cost tube amp that does sound very good. Well I guess there are plenty of ways to plug in - the frfr stuff is there re amps and that's probably very possible of course I agree. The TONEX raised the question of 'it's the end of the modelers' they said, and 'this changes everything' old phrase but in reality it's likely to NOT be the TONEX that changes things in the medium term for many reasons. Thanks for the post - very interesting and thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial hi Tony, I completely get your point and the last thing I’d ever want to see is the amp companies we all know and love go just. After all, without them there would be no tones to profile on amp modellers. You can’t beat a big stack at a live show and I’m sure recording studios would still love to record the sound of an actual amp rather than a clone copy. That said, I wonder how these companies will adapt and evolve to cope with the seismic shift in trends. Either they will focus on speakers or amps that can integrate more with amp modellers, or we are on the brink of something new and different. Either way, interesting times ahead. Thanks for the videos I really enjoyed your take.
The only difference between the Tonex and the QC or Kemper is that they made it so you can separate the capture from the usage and performance, so you can travel with it more easily and you use your computer for the processing part of the capture rather than the device itself. In reality this video is 5 years late.
Ha fair enough I guess. The other difference I found was that Kempers software is worlds apart - it works! whereas the IK Multimedia was a bag of er... sh you know what. Thanks for watching.
I think in general the amps will eventually sell less overtime. And it's not just because of the profilers. The profilers can only sell when they have something to profile. Modelers... In general the modelers try to emulate something that is on the market, but there were some attenpts to model out a sound that isn't based on a real amp. What will definitely hit the amp sells are the daw plugins. I don't know how many amps are sold to bedroom guitarists, but for sure that public will gravitate towards plugins. Unlike a tonex, you can actually steal a plugin, like any other piece of software. I mean of course you could steal a tonex u it from the store, but that probably would not go without notice. Now stealing a piece of software is waay waay easier. And you can be 100% sure, that among the population of bedroom guitarists, that will be the way to resolve their lack of amp problem. What it means is that amp manufacturers will focus on actual musicians more. And on that topic, lets be real, a person who can afford a tonex, was never a target of manufacturers like soldano or bogner or diezel. Only the really big names in the business were carrying these to the shows. Rest of the bands just used them in the studio. The guys who will take a hit are for sure marshall, bugera, fender cause they have a quite big portfolio for bedroom guitarists. I can only guess they will just shift production to make frfr speakers, cause at some point the bedroom players will want to play a gig or two, and they will have to amplify the signal from the profiler or the modeler. What is definitely good about profiling devices is that if you can do a good profile of an rare amp that you have in your collection, then you can take that sound into the concert venue. The morr profiesional guys already did that with kemper. So if the audience can hear a sound they could listen to on the LP, i guess that is a win win situation The audience listens to better audio, the musician does not have to carry an expensive rare piece of gear.
Agree in the context of existing players. But I do wonder if today's 12 year old with a gigging and recording future ahead of them will see valve amps as a logical progression as they grow. Will they want to go from lightweight tech that does the job to lugging amps around? Time will tell.
I think there are very many 'bedroom' guitarists actually, far more that many would disclose. And maybe they might flip to software, but there still remains a difference. Ha using the plugins without buying them I'm sure that goes on all the time... just as software theft has since at least when I started in computers in 1981. Very few actually solve that. On those amps lets not forget Vox, Friedman, Diezel, H&K, Mesa Boogie and very many more too. I have a Kemper since Jan 2012... and the 'profiles' are not really the same as a real amp... and Kemper's recent 'liquid' release of an update that makes the knobs similar confirms it took over 12 years to do that simple enhancement. But you are right in many ways of course; but the real test is what does the audience think of the tones? IMO many of them don't even know or care... but there again, play with an 'off' sound or feel and make no mistake the musician will undoubtedly not play as well and would be less inspired. It's all down to what the musician feels themselves and 'is it worth' actually having a Bona fide sound. Thanks for this great post and the video was geared around getting guys to do that...
Still nothing like the touch dynamics of a good, cranked, tube amp-speaker-guitar connection, not to mention the heady scent of hot cookin' power tubes in an old amp cabinet. 😁😁
I bought real amps for my studio, and Tonex for profiling MY amps for touring. The thing is, when you create a profile, you create a snapshot of ONE setting of the whole chain. Can't fiddle around with it the same way it would react in the real world. When you have a profiler, you (or somebody else) still NEED a real amp to create the profile. It doesn't kill the industry, just changes the ratios a bit
Fair enough point and as a Kemper owner I did know that - but Kemper has worked to resolve that issue (they might say) somewhat these days. I don't believe Tonex has. But its a good point. Sadly, with over 22000 profiles of amps on the Kemper Rig Manager alone, it really will get to a point where you won't have to profile any longer IMO.. and for good reason, the amps won't be made in numbers as they always were and the development of new and exciting tube amps will dwindle. I sincerely doubt that people like Mesa Boogie and Marshall would 'sell out' because of anything except most likely a decline in production and sales. I'm sure that 'there will always be some' tube amps made, but it was reminding me about hi-fi turntables... that faded in to obscurity generally and - are making today a 'comeback' which in itself is a bit weird. Thanks for the great post and for watching too!
I think it’s gonna be like that = - amp modelers claiming to «sound like » real amp will die or offer some neural network profiling like ToneX or NAM (the Rolex of machine learning today) - high end modelers will offer «perfect virtual amps » which will differs from classic ones and offer « unlimited » tweaking and new amps nobody has heard or play before - real amp will become like sport cars. Some passionate rich dudes will collect them and pay a lot for a fewer production ones, and capture modelers brand will buy them also to sample them like IK multimedia already does.
I think amps will not die, what will die is big amps and we will see more small not heavy 25w amps that look cute at home 😅 and sound cool. People still buy those amps and I think they’ll continue to do so
Good points... but I can buy a used PRS MT15 for less than 400? Those tube amps are not for the rich only and honestly, I do think the tube still has it currently. But great point and thanksfor watching.
Great video Tony, I’m old school it’s always been a 100 watt tube head or a 50 watt head , through a 4x12 cabinet with pedals, Marshall and Laney are my brand I’ve always been a fan of the UK craftsmanship, a well built amp will last you a lifetime if you take care of it, My thought on these products are they are a fad , let’s hope our beloved Tube amps live on.
Well I watch them. The fad I have watched since 2011 (12 years) and other than cheaper processors etc. many will tell me its all better... but the Kemper was doing it in 2011... and that says such a lot really. Is any of it 'better'? Nope... Meanwhile guys like yourself bought up on great tone AND FEEL, know the difference. Mee too and unlikely I'll be selling my amps. Thanks for watching.
I did see one other channel bring this question up. Unfortunately, I can't recall which. Here's the thing: true as it is, all it will take is for one generation to come up without the experience of having a tube amp pushing air for tube amps to disappear. Already at club shows, groups are using these modellers and profilers over actual amps. It's almost standard. There's numerous reasons - cost, chiefly - most young people can't afford an apartment, much less a tube amplifier. But also there's the question of storage. Plus, most bands don't play at the literal deafening levels we did, they don't need anything that powerful. Things change, not always for the better, but that doesn't stop it from happening
Not from what I see... and a tube amp can be bought these days for about £100 ($125) even that weighs less than your guitar. No effrect on tube amps... hmmm... there has been a tremendous slow down of new tube amp models being released in to the market currently make no mistake about that. And I can't buy Mesa amps here in the UK, Marshall are slow currently, and most brands equally slow. Is it the fault of gear like this? Maybe so or maybe not, but read all the posts and you will find that by far the majority remain firmly focussed on tube amps. I 'get it' for the post and thanks for that as it is a good contribution IMO and of course thanks for watching.
I am about to buy a Tonex because I have 3 kids and money is tight. I would love to have 150 tube amps but I can't even afford one. I play at church and a tube amp in that setting is just too loud. What I see happening is the same thing I see happening with guitars. The tube amp makers will sell less and charge even more for what they do sell. These digital knockoffs will become what Squire is to Fender. People with deep pockets will continue to buy the real amps and the working class will go the cheaper digital route. I am old too and the thought of lugging a tube amp around and 4x12 cab doesn't interest me at all anymore. The major amp makers already see the writing on the wall and have started moving digital to keep the lower to mid-priced amps moving. Look at the Katana for instance. I have 2 of them I run in stereo and when talking to music stores they sell more katanas and sparks than anything now. Many of the music stores have stopped even stocking the tube amps except for the smaller affordable tube combos. Will real amps eventually make a comeback? Time will tell I guess but when I attend concerts for the last few years I see Helix and Axe FX on the floor more and more and rea amps less and less. The tones I hear out of the PA sound killer so I see why even artists with deep pockets want the simplicity and dependability of digital amps and effects. You are the first I have seen to look at the big picture and what this means for the music industry. Pandora's box has been opened and I don't see tube amps making a comeback anytime soon. Great video!
Great points... but I can buy a real tube amp for about $130.00 and as heavy as your lunch box? As for cabs, again not really necessary as there is other gear that you can use... all in all about total the same price as the Tonex. Let me ask you this, when your software stops working and cant work the Tonex any longer because some software company went bust, how will you use your Tonex? on the other hand, the amp will run for the rest of your life! Its a great question that no one ever seems to answer. Amps will reduce in numbers I agree. And you have some great points... but being dependent on some software company is not really a very good idea... Thanks for watching.
I wouldn’t fret (lol). This product just made stuff available to people that may have previously not been able to afford some of the equipment. Tube amps are great, Helix are awesome, Fractal, Neural, yadda yadda. This is a product for people like me that wanted a little more than what the Walrus ACS1 or the Strymon Iridium offer for our $$$. IK didn’t launch some preemptive strike or trash talk anyone or any company as far as I know. Unfortunately, I’m getting the same vibes as the in the car world. You got a bunch of folks driving their Porsche and Maserati stuff and hate that anybody found joy in something that they didn’t have to get a loan for. “You think they’re behind you but they’re ‘bout to lap you.” -J. Santana
You should buy a PRS MT15 (going on eBay for about $500 or less) and the sound I have to say is entirely real! Actually the reason I created the videos from here, is the INCREDIBLE amount of hype put behind this TONEX unit by YT reviewers - and sadly, generally they were given the units. The result? Huge and incredible hype of the product over and over ad infinitum. I tend to call those 'sales videos' and not actually proper reviews. Go and watch them and you'll hear the 'this changes everything' and 'modelers are dead' and a host of other diatribe that in reality is pretty meaningless. Honestly I don't think that sort of thing is helpful to people that want to see a product without the bias and hype - just the product... It's why I made the video review and later added this video to highlight what could happen (not particularly with the TONEX itself, but with that technology of profiling) and people could actually lose jobs. For me, that really is an underlying aspect of the technology that no one ever addressed anywhere. And YES! I get it re Porsche etc. as I have personal experience of that. Thanks for the post and for watching.
To me, modelers are like sampling synths. Very convenient for live performance but doesn't have the mojo of the real thing. People tend to judge value based on cost. Tell me this. Each time a new modeler comes out, people say "It's so much better than it was before. You can't tell the difference." However, I don't hear them saying it's better than the amps that they model?
You raised agreat question for many 'new' things. For example, the Axe FX II was the best in the world and you won't need another one... type of mentality... then came Axe FX III which is 'better'. Does that mean that 'hey we sold you a load of cr** last time, but now we've fixed that - this is so much better'? Ha I laugh at most of the claims put out - Oh te old one was junk right? or was it? NOONE that sells the stuff (of almost any music gear) ever will answer those sort of questions of course... and you touched on it - a REALLY good post. Thanks for watching.
Spot on, I use modellers as it suits my needs the best but there's a place for everything tube amps to axe fx to tonex. I'll never get guitarists who think every new product has killed everything else.
What’s dead are taking Marshall stacks onstage. With the era of silent stages becoming the norm, regular amps are being forced out for some of us that play live.
Modelers and profilers are great for Making recording easy and accessible. But some of the coolest recordings turn out great because of the limited gear. Turn the knobs on the guitar/amp, use the pickup selector. The more complicated the gear. The more time I take endlessly obsessing over tone. A real amp and cab/ some effects. It’s plug and play and I get to do what I love, play the damn guitar
The Tonex is ok. That’s as far as I am prepared to say after using one for the last few days. It doesn’t inspire me to go back to it though, in fact, I have decided to send mine back. A few reasons. Firstly, I a/b’d the Tonex against my Dream 65 pedal. Some of the tones were pretty close to be fair but the Tonex doesn’t have Dream’s reverb. The amp is called a Deluxe reverb for a reason, and UAD’s sounds awesome. Secondly, I ran a few pedals into both units. The Dream did remarkably well at keeping the feel, the Tonex just felt compressed, didn’t handle the dynamics of output volume changes from the pedals. Thirdly, I like to tweak on the fly when recording guitars but felt that the Tonex eq just wasn’t that great. More importantly, when changing the gain on the Dream you hear what you expect to hear, as you would with the amp. Changing the drive on the Tonex just doesn’t give you these subtle characteristics of the amp, and how could it? It doesn’t know what they are. If anything, I would say that amp profiling has had its day because this is what it is and always will be. Modelling software on the other hand will continue to get better and better. So, in summary, Tonex will get you some decent tones but it isn’t close to the complexity and just pure joy of a decent valve amp. I think the market for Tonex probably includes a fair few players who have never used a decent valve amp. For those that have, it ain’t even close.
Also, I have played guitar for 20 years, have owned tube amps, have toured w tube amps.. I am also an audio engineer and producer… have worked at big studios in L.A, so I feel like I can judge this and to me your last sentence is wrong. Tonex sounds amazing.. it just sounds to me like you do not know very well how to get any sound you want w any tools you have in front of you.
I agree that the Dream 65 Pedal was great re the 'feel'. Something that many/most devices of digital nature simply don't extol. Recently I carried out a limited survey re Tube Amps and are they doomed so to speak. There were over 200 entries and the No they are king response was actually about 83% the rest falling back to digital in one way or another.
Hey Jiroe, Chris was making a point... which he is entitled to on my channel without being nasty to other visitors. Me? I like to see reasonable comments without personal criticism like "it just sounds to me like you do not know very well how to get any sound you want w any tools you have in front of you" and honestly, for someone that has 'been around', and with your great ability, that sort of thing is not really befitting. It's OK to apologize to Chris if you want to and thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial there’s nothing wrong w my comment, I did not insult, I did not use any swear word, if you want to read too much into it… go ahead. I said what I said. As a professional to me his response sounds like he doesn’t get the concept which I was taught from the very beginning: achieve any sound w anything you have in front of you. There’s nothing nasty about my comment. It would be nasty if I was insulting him or something like that.
I'm a Line6 Helix owner and user for the past 3 years. Straight to FOH with iems. I'm also 56 and been playing for over 30 years. Love my Helix but..... the Tonex feels way better than the Helix models.
I too have a Helix rack... and to me the Line6 gear was far superior, mainly because of the oh so bad software and cr*p support form the Tonex mob. I started out never having seen IK Multimedia product before and thankful after the review that I did not have to use their horrible no support product software any longer. That was a true opinion based on a real review of both products actually (I reviewed the Line6 Helix some years back). Thanks for the post as it does show different opinions based on personal experience and that's exactly what is needed on a lot of the gear out there today... and thanks for watching.
Amp companies have been on a decline for years. Gibson buying Mesa, and now Marshall has been sold. Plugins, modellers, and captures are the reason for that. Only way they can survive is diversifying or innovating. Why buy a new amp (from most amp companies offerings) when many haven't changed their core product amps for years, and you can pick used up off Reverb or facebook marketplace for a fraction of the new price? Will that mean there will be no amps to capture? Nope, there are thousands of amps out there that will run for decades and cycle round the guitar community. I'm guessing there will also be some demand for new real amps, probably for longer than we all have left on this planet! I've slimmed my physical amp collection down to just one - I'm not alone! Are modellers dead? Nope, but I bet my house that most of the big players will release hybrid modeller/capture devices going forward. The only company so far to really do that is Neural DSP with the QC, but they've overpromised and underdelivered and thus left a bit of a stale taste for many. But you can only capture one 'snapshot' of an amps position at a time... True, but that will eventually change. Just like we've seen the recent 'Mikko 2' cab plugin, that manages and interpolates thousands of IR captures. We'll eventually see the same with capture technology. And let's face it, most real amps only have a few sweet spots in them anyway, so you really don't need to capture every setting. Pre and Post eq'ing and boosts can handle the rest! But captures don't sound or feel like a real amp... Us guitarists are stubborn buggers with major resistance to change, but reality is, some of them do. Pretty much anyone who's tried out the open source NAM capture plugin with a good snapshot will tell you that. And it will respond to volume and touch just the same as the real deal. The resulting null testing can prove the diffences are so small, your ears won't know the difference in a blind test. Many of us mistakenly listen with our eyes rather than our ears. I absolutely agree with your comment on this next one though... People really should take youtube reviewers claims & statements with a grain of salt. 99% overdramatize to boost their clicks and are essentially paid to advertise.
I don't believe that capturing 'the same old amps' would actually do anything for the profilers etc. in fact I think they too might then make way for some other idea. Who knows what. I agree that Neural did compromise their standing. The 'snapshot' is also a very valid point of course and its always been that way from what I see. You're pretty much right I think. For me, the 'faffing' around with some not very good software remains a feature that is best left alone, there IS good software too of course (check Kemper and Line6 Helix among others). Not a single channel raised the question about if you were employed at the tube amp factory or you made products specifically for that type of product, and so I decided to create the video just to remind people that it's not 'just' about profilers really, it has a far more important effect on the overall guitarist as they are today. I did carry out a survey of a few hundred people re tube amps... and the resounding total for them was around 82% with the rest being in favor of the other technologies really. Which was interesting. Great post and thanks for watching.
I believe as long as there are guitar players who want tube amps, there will be tube amps regardless of whatever non-tube wannabes there are. You're the man with the tell like it is, no bullshit plan Tony! Keep up the outstandingly, exceptiona andl excellent work!
I feel like in a mix no snob would be able to tell the difference between say, amplitube and whatever amp the software is emulating, however, i am a tube amp lover and an amp sim lover, so for me each one is not better or worse, its just that one has advantages over the other (like, my maz 18 sounds better than an amplitube maz 18, yet the amplitube one sounds really good too and i can play through headphones and record covers)
@joseph-ie1sf I get it re the comment - but there generally is a difference but in a way differently described I think. The person who WILL tell the difference is the guitarist... reason being is that the 'feel' is different, and in my experience personally and chatting with others, that feel can inspire the musician to create something that otherwise might be OK but maybe might have been substantially better when the guitarist is 'in the moment' so to speak. I have had it happen with only one digital device since I have been reviewing since 2009 or thereabouts and that was the floor version of the Line6 Helix - and I recorded it at the time. If you watch the Helix review here: ruclips.net/video/q9J6A9uSDGo/видео.html Now you might or might not like the music, but that Helix really did (just once) inspire. It was near enough the first time I played it after setup and no doubt in my mind that it 'had something' going on. I never really felt that way about other gear (whatever it might have been under review) and neither did I get similar results subsequently when using the Helix floor unit. It's an interesting subject for sure... may be because I was 'excited' to try the Helix... whatever, but on a decent tube amp I remain far more inspired by the feel of the amp (and of course the mix with the tone) than when I use digital. Each has a place... and I'm no snob - I just know what works best when I use them. Thanks for the post, it was interesting.
I think where this gets interesting is serious bands wanting to record with real amps but tour with modelers. They are easy to set up and less finicky than the rigs of old. Metallica, for example, uses AxeFX III now for live shows (as do a lot of other touring acts). They record with the Boogies but found the Fractals far easier for Road Life and you'd never know live. Now you compound this with hobbyists, like myself, using a fractal and not buying new amps (Although that is more due to keeping the wife happy). Demand will drop for $2k+ tube amps and some manufacturers will not survive. I still think there is a strong base for them but we will see the market retract overall for tube amps.
Interesting points of course. Bearing in mind it's 'unlikely' that Metallica do anything except walk on play and walk off is an interesting aspect that certainly does not see them arguing that the 'gear is too heavy - these darn tube amps have to go' sort of thing... yes maybe Metallica are less bothered about their live tones? or worse, are more bothered about their recordings and don't care about anything else? Ha the more I think of this its a VERY good question... Hey Mr Hetfield.. (I'll call him that just to be safe!) tell me the truth why you do it? Ha... I'm having fun of course... just joking around, but it IS an interesting point. Thanks for watching too...
I would never spend $400 on any type of pedal . I don't care to lose my ass on something that won't last. And most modelers all use the same chips that others use. That to me is ridiculous . I bought a used Roland ( boss.).Gt 6, that does it all for $200. That was over 6 yrs.ago . Thanks Tony for showing us .
Can the Kemper and Axe-FX do what they do for a fraction of the price they currently sell for now? No ... and that is why the ToneX will force them re-invent their products. They won't go away, but they will have to re-invent themselves and come out with new products that come in at a lower price point. Who wants to pay a higher price for processing in a proprietary box like the Kemper and Axe-FX, when we can do that processing in the computer? I'm a ToneX boy and I love it ... I love it so much that I sold my Kemper simply because I don't need it any longer.
Careful... there are many that want to use the Kemper and Axe-FX at any price. I'm not particularly one of them, but its wrong to assume no one buys them... they do. Like most digital solutions they tend to have some issues, notwithstanding in the case of Tonex, if that company ceased to be - then the unit might not be so palatable when it stops working. Kemper and the others won't stand still, and when they do move it forward I'm sure that it might well be improvement over Tonex, at the very least re the software that failed to install on Win 10 that I experienced. Good points in your post though and thanks for watching.
Tony, I have to disagree. I honestly thinks it changes the landscape, thats for sure, but does not replace valve amps. They are gonna replace the cheap crap that all these companies put out for loads of money like the Marshall MGs, the Line 6 spiders and so on. But, just like the Joyo Bantamps (amazing sounding amps and loud enough for 90% of the gigs out there), the Tiny Terrors and the Marshall DSL didnt ruing the whole premium valve amp market. They are not aimed at the same players. Touring musicians do like having the convenience of tone matching and carrying something that weights 500g and not 20kgs. Beginners like to have access to great sounds without breaking the bank (and they had it before the modelers with the plugins and scarlets 2i2, the irigs and bias fx). Still, you need the real ones to create new sounds, studio guys prefer having the real ones most of the time. In fact, I would argue they are good for business. Having a good sound inspire you to play, it makes you feel better because it sounds pleasant, that leads to practice, that leads to love for music and, ergo, fancy and overpriced guitar amps - which I own a couple, and a ToneX. Just like affordable and great guitars did not ruin the vintage guitars market, even though a lot of modern guitars do sound and intonate way better than older instruments, having great sounding affordable gear is not gonna take the big ones out of business, actually its gonna put more people in love with music, and guitars, and lead them down the rabbit hole. My students can all play with the toneX, its right here, it sounds great... but they always prefer the JVM410. Do they know how to twist the knobs, set the gain, or do they even get to play with anything past lvl 1 on the master? No. Yet, they still want it. Its not a rational thing, having a modeler is a practical solution for practical problems. It is good for people to have good tone at affordable prices, it is good for touring and not breaking your back. Still, we buy the fancy heads, the 412s, we have 5 or 6 amp heads and we still buy the 7th, 8th. We have loads of guitars and we buy more, that will be played once every blue moon, we have a drop tunning pedal, and we still have guitars in different tunings. We buy overdrive pedals just because they are red instead of green. So, dont worry, the amp market is safe, more than that, its gonna do great, there are a lot more guitar players and people exploring the guitar around than in the early 2000s. There are guitar brands, higher quality instruments, PRS SEs, Ibanez Genesis, and every other day a new guitar brand putting impressive stuff out. And people still buy their Gibson's (even when they have the same headstock problems since forever). Things are gonna be great.
You made some great points, and making a video like this has sort of stimulated the thinking of many (read the posts) including yourself I think - its exactly why I made it. It's not that it WILL happen, but there is a possibility because no one can truly read the future (think Mesa and Gibson as an example or Fender and Presonus) least of all me and you :). But didn't you notice something? Not a single reviewer mentioned that point about people losing jobs at all? Your points are all possible as are mine... but the lack of consideration by ANY of those so called reviewers really shows a lot of the reality of how it all works, and I guess when they get the item for promoting product then maybe there's something lacking re truth underlying the review. BTW the amp guys I have spoken with are very adamant that the tube amps will remain long term (based on a survey I'll be putting in a video) - the results are interesting and are based on real survey rather than anecdotal opinions that we can all create. I did do a few different surveys etc. too and that should be worth taking a look when I get the video on there. I'm on vacation currently. Thanks for the great post - appreciated and thanks for watching.
@@KoRNeRd Having time with the best gear available is fun - so I don't think about that. But I understand, that not everybody is in that position and I think it is good, that these people can get good stuff for less money.
I still have a couple of tube amps and love them. But I also have a Helix and I enjoy using it quite a bit. It sounds good and feels good. It’s not quite a tube amp but it works well and I don’t have to burn through tubes just playing in my basement. My 5150 head costs about $500 to retube now. I’ll always have a tube amp but I like modellers too.
Yes I'm a bit like that too. I have both types of gear. Having said that, of the two technologies I do own, the modelers (or profilers if you will) I do tend to sell more often once I have 'had enough'. It always pains me to let a tube amp go... thanks for watching.
100% agreed. I have a Headrush modeller and 3 tube amps and I still spend a lot more time playing my tube amps. As close as people say the modellers and profilers are to the real amps, I can hear a difference.
Tony, A.I. is the future. We will eventually be at a place where a product in a way not far away from what Sound Hound does will analyse a guitar tone from an audio file and boom it will give you David Gilmour's tone from the comfortably numb solo. In the same way it will give you any classic or other guitar tone that you have ever heard. The amps will no longer be needed as their tones have already been recorded in countless recording studios. It is not a matter of if but of when. Will it happen in our life times? Your guess if as good as mine. Tonex is just the tip of a very large iceburg. But the future is coming and for me it cannot come soon enough!
I get that, but from what I see of A.I. the eventually might be further than some might think. I have been using A.I. daily for a number of months and the corrections and re-writing etc. not to mention the incorrect facts makes me think that's still a while off. The point still remains that those tones were CREATED by the amp makers and IMO it is even morally wrong (as if many care these days) to simply take them without thought of the originators that invented each and every amp. It does not make things right, just to take the tones, and ha I could even guess that maybe it would produce a very interesting court case... maker against tone 'cloner'. Unlikely I know, but never say never especially when peoples livelihood is at stake. What I would say is this... I have used these types of devices since 2011 and there are so many modelers, profilers etc. and after a while I do have to say that they (all of the digital devices I mention here) all tend to sound pretty much the same... a digital tone and without the feel of the real deal amps. It's just an opinion of course and thanks for the post because no one is wrong :) and thanks for watching.
The beauty of this is that it makes it cheaper to get a taste of expensive boutique amps to those with a tight budget. The other usefulness is that it makes touring way easier with a smaller footprint. Will this replace tube amps? IDK but at least in a live gig setting you are gonna start seeing less real amps and more digital rigs.
Well that might be the case or not. Some do have issues with the Tonex and others seem to be OK. Thanks for the post and for watching.
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I think this pedal is for live gigs where its very hard to carry a marshall fullstack. I'm a tube amp guy, but this pedal + good pedalboard does the job in live gigs or silent recording in apartment. Tube amps are unbeatable and these kind of units cannot replace the real deal amps :)
As long as modelers and profiles try to catch up with the tube sound, tube amps will be the reference. Profilers just creates snapshots, they might match the tone at a specific setting but apart from these settings, it is all generic....The most important fact is, tube amps aren't electronically perfect - all the non-linearities, parasite issues from components doing stuff they theoretically shouldn't do, contribute to tone a lot, so we use "perfect technology" to simulate non-linearities and parasite influences - I call guitar sound design an artform of failure, which makes it so difficult for digital designers to catrch up with their concepts to simulate analog behavior. If they fully understand the "artform of failure, they could possible use their skills to write algorithms that control these parasite side effects and this would result in sound design above traditional tube amps, but I doubt that any of these brands ever will get there , since most of them put their focus on *the artform of failure" aka understanding how to get even closer to detail with their algorithms so they can simulate the reality as close to reality as possible ;)
Great vid...nice to see another opinion for a change. The band Morbid Angel recorded one of their guitars solos with a glass lightbulb casing around the mic...techniques in the studio playing with REAL gear create novel music that stands the test of time. The worst thing for me is modellers and the like are killing unique music. Hendrix, Gilmour, Mudhoney, Entombed...all created unique sounds by messing with their hardware and started whole genres of music which we now strive to emulate. For an amateur bedroom player like me though modellers give freedom and chance to muck around doing different things on limited budgets (I'm using a Digitech rp500 -£50 used) does what I need it to in an okay way...means I can make psychedelic rock or slam death metal and save myself a few grand!
I ordered this pedal. But not to replace my amps. After all your review of the 5150iii 50w stealth helped convince me to buy it. I've played with a few modeling software captures and some cab IRs, but they're not the same as the heads and 2x12 in my garage. They are a lot easier to record with, for me and my budget. But I am also a drummer first and foremost and the guitarists who actually show up to studios and shows have tube amps, the home studio solo producers will be the ones exclusively playing modelers and profilers. You can't IR a 4x12 through headphones or monitor speakers and experience 4x12 tone. You can't capture the full range of an amp in a profile, just the range where it's knobs are profiled. But you can get a taste for yourself of what a Diezel VH4 or a vintage JMP can do dialed in which is pretty neat.
Yes I get what you're saying for sure. I do use digital technology sometimes myself too. I also like the amps because when I can crank them they do sound 'different' and 'feel' different to me. But great point and post and thanks for watching.
Great content Tony, and here's my take. I love pedals and enjoy integrating pedals and processors for fun. As long as you apply MOORE's law you can generally wait it out and save a great deal of money, and have the massive library of sounds from online content and updates. I don't have the time to chase every possible tone and combinations so I'll let the professional take that role and just enjoy playing. Keep the videos coming!
Yes that is often a convenience choice really. And I get that for sure. I even play around with the pedals and digital gear myself too. Thanks for watching...
You’re missing the point of the ToneX , yes sure people that don’t buy amps aren’t going to start anytime soon but those of us that do have the amps is I can clone my arsenal of amps and install them in a pedal that weighs 3 pounds , play my ToneX through the loop of my Boss GT1000 (my case) or Helix , HXStomp or HXFX , put my Boss effects in front and behind the ToneX for a light weight rig . I can’t carry my JVM410H as easily as I used to and this makes it easier to take my amps with me
There are many low cost and light tube amps around. The weight thing alone is not really the best of gain to apply I think. There are of course other advantages of profilers, modelers, and indeed tube amps. But personally I tend to grab a tube amp rather than faffing around with the software that does not (often) work. The Helix software is exceptional and so is Kemper's - and I own both. But like everything, we all follow what's best for ourselves really I think, and you touched on that really. For me the Tonex adds far too much 'baggage' when I can get the tones and feel I want in 30 seconds and at any settings... you'll know profilers operate effectively at the settings that were there when the capture was created. Not so with a tube amp. In any case, good post - appreciated, and thanks for watching.
The real moment when everything changes will be when some AI creates a model from scratch that sounds and plays better than any actual amp. It may look at all of the tube models and create something that is tubier than an actual tube can be. The tones that are produced by a tube are limited by the physics of our universe. For instance, a model with moments of absolute silence between each note of a super chunky riff, while having sustain of biblical proportions with feedback that plays as if it is reading your mind. You are correct in saying that there needs to be a source for the AI to work with. However, Chat GPT can generate code to satisfy requirements given to it in plain English. But it is just leveraging code patterns that humans have written.
I love this bit " tubier than an actual tube can be" :) It reminds me about Fractal Audio and their Axe-FX V2 - they said in some European ads that basically you will never need anything else :) Ha then they released V3... I get your point... but I think way off in time. My own experience with Chat GPT is that it gets lots of things wrong, mixed in with some good info... when I use it for something I am very knowledgeable on, I see the errors and they stand out a mile. But good point and thanks for watching.
To those who rejoice that tubes amps are dead with ToneX ... what the hell are you going to capture if they are gone... use the protuberance you have on your neck people? Also, on capture is 1 tone, not a whole amp. I see it to be very useful for touring and gigging, no hassle always getting the same tone and just eq for the room and that's it. For home practice and studio, I will keep my tube and solid state amps thank you and I will complement with pc plugins and modelers. It is safe to say the market will change, but unless people really are that stupid, and I don't think they are because they will still crave that actual hardware "I own it" feeling... guitar players are like that, gear craving hoarders and that is not changing any time soon :)
Ha I just read about 'hoarding' guitars... I guess it could be a similar thing... except of course someone will own the stuff, if you don't then someone will. So 'hoarding' is a rather strange way of describing things. I actually do use my amps - not by the hour of course, but amps (or guitars for that matter) that I don't like I always sell. Seems logical :) and I tend to agree that amps are necessary to capture them :)
The thing I am watching is KEMPERS and Line 6 response both are different type one photo captures/profiles, and line 6 a modeller type. Obiviously the bigger assault is toward kemper, who has more or less sat still for more than 10 years, at a high price point. It will be interesting the next year at least. I think Tonex fell short not being able to have a unit with all the Amplitube 5 capabilities, no effects built in, no compatibility with Amplitube to the Tonex Pedal. So we will see.
I agree that Kemper device is old. The software they do update, but I remain concerned that a device at 12 years old is due an update of that there is no doubt and I have been expecting one for some time, but its all quiet on the western front so to speak. I found the support on the TONEX to be lacking and with the problems I encountered (some had them two years ago on same basic software) I was not convinced really. Thanks for thew info though and of course for watching.
Here’s the deal… you wanna get the best out of modelers? You need good speakers at home. We’re taking about maybe $1500 for a pair of speakers. You want transparency that will translate extremely well no matter what venue you play in. That’s the problem. You want it to sound amazing in a record? Again, You need to dial in the tone in a good room with good speakers
I use nothing but QSC. It still doesn't seen to have more than a sort of 2 dimensional (I don't know how else to say it) reproduction of a sound that you can just feel out of the right amp. Admittedly I play mostly clean. Nothing beats a Fender tube for clean.
I won't be arguing with any Kemper or Line 6 owners, or anyone who owns a real amp. It's real competition (as far as I'm concerned) is the Strymon Iridium, the Walrus Audio ACS1, and the Boss IR-200, and to a lesser extent the Universal Audio series of amp pedals. Compared to those alternatives, the Tonex pedal really is a standout. I'm not in a bleeding war with anyone, and I can sift through whatever hype (or shade) is thrown at this product from various RUclipsrs. The only thing the TONEX pedal has put an end to, is my search for a box in a certain form-factor, that does certain things, at a desirable price point.
I get it of course... this video is not created to make any type of conflict re what some like or otherwise. It DOES have a serious story to it though, but that's not really about anything in reality other than when people lose their jobs because of things like the 'copying' of tines for example that have taken many years for the amp makers to master. Thanks for the input re the other pedals too. And thanks for watching.
I consider buying a ToneX to capture my tube amps. No more lifting an AC30 around for gigs. In the Studio I'll prefer the "real deal", because the ToneX will only capture one specific setting at once. I can fiddle with the amp settings in the studio, and when I'm happy with it, I'll capture it to reproduce that specific sound live. Just get the best of both worlds, instead of continuing to break your back lifting these heavy amps.
I got suckered into the "modelers" as a beginner guitarist. I wanted 100 presets and 100s of effects. In the long run I sold it off and bought a DSL100 and a Triple Rectifier, along with three cabinets. Best decision. If everybody has the same modeler, and presets, you will sound like everyone else. I also hate fiddling with software. Great video!
you sound like everyone else who has a triple rec lol. By any chance do you boost it with a TS? Either way it's very original and you sound like no-one else playing it lol
@@xx-----------xx873 maybe where you are from but here in the U.S triple rectifier were extremely popular, I played one for years. There’s just not enough amps for the amount of people out there to sound original… also let me tell you about carrying that 100 lbs amp on your 😂 I’ve done it and I do not recommend
@@iamjiroe Where I'm from in the UK we use sarcasm, we even make concessions for the yanks making it bleeding obvious and yet it still went over your head lol
You make a great point Tony. Here is what will happen, in 20 years the Tonex will be a piece of digital history that we will laugh at how primitive it was. The same way we look at the first Line 6 Pod. Lotsa nostalgia
Probably correct - it all moves on. Ha will we (well you might I'll probably be where its dark) be discussing the latest Marshall digital amp and mentioning that you liked plugin X and others liked plugin Y. And the wealthy guys loved the plugin with over 1m bits... :) Thanks for watching.
100% in your corner with your views. They talk about no longer lugging around heavy amplifiers, and, in the same breath trying to sell us FR FR speakers to play these Profilers/Modlers through. If I have to bring an FR FR to a gig, I may as well bring my heavy Mark IV. Trying to sell us more crap that we don't need through these grifters.
As an old school metal player, when I started playing as a teenager, it was always the dream to have a real tube amp, but who could afford that as a teenager? As an adult I’ve played/owned them for years. While I do use amp sims, & I do have an AxeFx 3, I also have an EVH 5150 III & a Marshall cab. To me they are great for different things. I love modeling/profiling for recording. I think IRs are one of the best things ever invented for recording! BUT…that is of a guitar amp sound that is mic’d up. That does not replace the amp in a room sound. I like them both for different reasons. I really like the sound of a real amp into a 4x12 cab when I just jam to have fun. I always do that for practice or just playing. I use the axefx 3 is what I use to record with, as a tool, but I have fun with my real amps. That’s kind of how it is for me
Great info and thanks for the post. I could guess we all do what we 'think' is best. I have lots of gear, but I do tend to stick with real amps and cabs for recording 'proper' stuff. I have had a Kemper since January 2012 or somewhere there and you know most digital stuff can sound OK to good, but I prefer the real amps - it sounds and 'feels' somehow different... there's little like a really good amp and decent speakers and the setup is pretty instant. But I guess its horses for courses :). Thanks for watching.
Oh well. So what about all those employees that lose their jobs? All end up with no income, all because some company came along and maybe (figuratively) stole the tone? There certainly is more to the situation than many think and its why I made the video to highlight this point. However, great for the post and for watching...
I really enjoy the hot take Tony. I agree with your sentiment. One thing the digital crowd have in common is that they are all chasing *Tube amp* tones. Give your money to the people who actually designed and produced the legendary tones we all love and chase.
It boils down to $$$ when a young kid is trying to make a choice as to what they want to do for gear and start looking at $500 vs $2000+ all but the ones using mom and dad's money will likely go the economical route. Tube amp manufacturers would do themselves a solid to make their products affordable to the people who are buying them.
That point is not lost on me for sure, but the problem is, you CAN buy a tube amp for just over £100 right now! Here: www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_mighty_5th_b_stock.htm and I've even reviewed it here: ruclips.net/video/sO7yC1e-2l4/видео.html of course they don't suit everyone, but in reality they are light and low cost AND have real tubes in there!. Good point and thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial I totally hear ya. But today's kids and the next generation of guitarists will be hard pressed to steer away from their phones and what not. Another 5-10 years and we'll be asking where all the pedals went when everyone's iRigging into a tablet.
I have a room full of tube amps..and I love them..but it occurred to me awhile back,that EVERY guitar tone we have ever heard,is NOT an amp in the room flapping your pants legs,it a mic’ed up amp/cab,in another room,monitored by FRFR speakers…It’s a different thing entirely than blasting a Marshall thru a 4x12 in the room…it’s that sound filtered thru a microphone…I think both have a place,and they always will….I use both,depending on what my needs are….
Tony, in one point you are right: nothing sounds like a tubeamp. But sometimes it’s fine to have a modeler or a modeling software, because I can create sounds that my amps don’t create. And sometimes it’s great fun to mix-and-match real amp sounds with the sounds of modelers or modeling software. I think both worlds have a justified place in a studio.
Its true they do both have a place. But, if you watch the whole video, I raised a number of points to be fair, but the most important one is the people that could be out of work that currently work making tube amps... when the volumes reduce and makers have to let workers go. Sincerely I hope it never happens that way. Thanks for the post and for watching.
Hey Tone. Am I the only bloke that's noticed how the peeps who tell you it's great having 'x' number of virtual amps in one box, are the same people who instead of having a basement full of amps, now have a basement full of amp modellers - instead of a load of 'boxes' that make different sounds, a load of boxes that all sound the same?
You're not alone there. I was discussing this very thing the other night after completing an audio section of one of those boxes. My comment was (and I won't hide it) 'after a while all these digital things sound the same'.. ) and I really did say that. I have looked at most of them since 2011, true I missed the odd one but in general that is my conclusion to this day. They simply don't have the 'feel' factor IMO. Thanks for watching and for the post which is interesting.
First, people who defended tube amplifiers said that you could never truly emulate the tube sound. Now that its has been achieved, many seem to be afraid. I believe that we are witnessing a paradigm shift. Both can coexist, and in my opinion, neither an amplifier nor a guitar should cost 3,000 dollars. Often, priced are inflated, and that's why people turn to simulation
Some create the sound as you say, but I have yet to find ANY simulator that replicates the feel while playing. They are very climical compared to tube amps...
@@tonymckenzieofficial For now...wait 5 or 10 years more and see...The fact is, now is Very similar to the Sound, the small diference of "feeling" on the guitar player, its not a 3000 dollars diference ... that IS the point, anyway, cool video! I like your Channel ;)
I agree 100%. Are Tonex peddlers telling me that it's better to have a realistic silicone women's doll, than the real woman? I'll play the real thing and they can play with their dolls.
Ha brilliant... and I totally agree... hold on, I'm just going to give the silicone doll a bath... :) Classic and thanks for the laugh. Thanks for watching.
A few will still make the amps, but respectefuly we do not need more amps being built in mass, we just need people to profile what already exists In fact, I've created over 300 profiles with ToneX both with boutique real world gear and also with virtual amps - with IRs and simulations of IRs. Therefore a physical amp isn't even techincally needed for the "profile" tech in a pedal to be relevant. There are plenty of guitar amps out there for those that want them, a tube amp isn't something that just dies and goes into a landfill after 5 years. There is a reason why amps from the 60s (yes, SIXTY YEARS OLD) are still being used, bought, sold, and profiled. The tech is built to last. We just need a good "play back system" there is a reason why people playing tiny venues still use tube amps as the PA systems can be garbage. But if you step up to real venues - suddenly the sytem is good enough. The point about TONEX you are missing - is the tech is finally good enough and affordable enough that buying an amp instead doesn't make sense for the majority - people are playing at home where they can't crank a tube amp, actually care about their hearing, etc. The "capture tech" of 2010 didn't change everything becuase it cost $2K to get the device plus more money to get either the gear to profile or to buy other peoples gear. With ToneX, you don't even need the computer. A free version with a $100 interface and you have the same tone, it is crazy. And you spend $300-400 on the pedal you have something you can literally gig with or take to a recording studio. The days of 100 Watt amps are for the most part over except for a very small portion of players.
Tonex Is a no-brainer, especially for the gigging musician. Trust me the audience is not going to know if you used a $2000 amp or the Tonex pedal. If what you play sounds good that are all the people including myself care about. Loading and unloading big amps and cabinets is really no longer needed in this fast-growing rate of very high-quality technology in the world today.
You raise good points and thanks for the post. But its no longer 2010 and you can buy a great amp for £400 ($500) these days with lower outputs and control devices. And as you say, they will still be working very many years later. Whereas the 'trailing edge' chips involved in the digital equipment moves very fast. Expect obsolescence fast... taken over by others and then no repair parts. Since 2020 I have seen over and over devices that have chips forced upwards from say a $1 part by suppliers to a $10 part for the exact same chip... if you can even get it. Then there's the software... usually cloud based and with bugs - and not very good support (no one cares) and if a company goes bust... look for a trash bin for your shiny digital device. That's the reality today sadly. It's not that they sound particularly bad or anything like that, but these points are not anecdotal, I have seen them in reality personally and trust me, the maker CANNOT solve those issues. Lastly on those tube amps... there really is more than 'just' tone going on, the amp 'feels' different and can be far more inspiring than the digital equivalent IMO. Good post and thanks for watching.
After 7 years with my Helix I took the chance and bought a Quad Cortex. The only regret I have is not making the change sooner. The Quad Cortex simply the best I've ever tried, I just downloaded a few captures and that was it!!! Future is here, Tone X is not for me because I'm not using a pedalboard anymore and of course, I have the Quad Cortex. I'm saying this because people are dissin the capture feature saying that is a gimmick but I'm a believer.
I get that. Some criticise the maker for not doing what they originally trumpeted in the initial sales comments though. Does that bother you in any way? I don't have one so I can't really comment on this... but thanks for the post - all useful... and thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial yes, Neural promised things that are still pending and I get it but I’m not bothered at all. I rarely use the HX Edit for my helix so I don’t really need the desktop editor but I understand the frustration of the users that need one. For me the most important thing is the sound and the Quad Cortex delivers. Not only the sound but the feel is almost like an amp. In addition I don’t need to tweak endlessly like I did with my Helix to get a good sound. Anyway, hopefully you can try one in the near future, keep up the good work Tony.
Missed your video's Tony. Hope your well mate. Straight to the point and I agree. I went 100% digital and never looked back. All the best from the Lake District 😊😊👍👍👍👍
:) I need to teach you... (NOT) :) and I trust that at least a few guys visited your free downloads for the stuff . Thanks for watching and the post...
Don't forget I have a thing where you can vote your opinion and it would be great to see what the majority opinion actually is from higher numbers. Here: WANT TO VOTE? Go HERE: ruclips.net/channel/UCuuNmrkOEmTPnz4Dcc-Hi5wcommunity and if you can't actually vote there then thanks for at least trying... tell me if the TONEX 'changes everything' as they say?
Hypothetical thought - Now I own a Tone X, how do I hear it? (Headphones? Not gonna sound like a full stack!?) do I plug it into my $3000 Studio computer? AND $5000 monitors? Does it make sound? No? Hummm odd. So I plug it into a $50,000 PA at the gig? How do I practice? $2000 FRFR Cabinets? Oh just plug it into your $6000 Marshall plexi stack?! If so….why wouldn’t I just plug in directly and skip this nonsense?!? Everyone forgets you still need Power AND Speakers on top of the $400 pedal, but I digress. Please address this issue with your audience. Someone in the spotlight needs to point out this FACT. The TONE X Costs a lot MORE than just the hardware, let alone the super computer needed to run the Amplitube program, the DAW, and plug ins (NO FX) with out latency or at least LOW latency. This is a HUGE topic EVERYONE is skipping. #justsaying
Who realistically practices with a Marshal stack at home? I have no one in the house that would complain about doing that, but still I don’t. I practice what I’m not good at yet and therefore not something I would want to subject the rest of my household let alone neighborhood to. And these days I’ve yet to meet any band that isn’t practicing with a PA. Further, a $400 pedal and a couple of PA speakers(if you need to be stereo)will likely cost you about $1200 total. Compare that to a Marshal Half Stack which will cost you about $2000 ($4000 if you need to be stereo 😂)to get into the game with. Add the cost of Yamaha THR if you don’t want to get divorced. And lastly, if you were paying attention, the ToneX is a pedal. No computer necessary. Though a basic one will help make the library of amps easier to deal with. Obviously you have something that will suffice because you are typing here on RUclips.
I’m going to try the Tonex through my Headrush monitor hope that sounds good. Yes synergy concept has been done before and I have a Randall RM 100, this seems cooler like you can have 2 modules with 2 channels and all of a sudden you have 4 channels of boutique pre amps that are designed with the corresponding companies . This seems like an upgrade from Egnator and
Randall , and you can get this into a lighter weight rack . Worth looking into , no rush though. I’ll hear what it sounds like in a few weeks seeing steve Vai , he uses them , I would get different modules though.
Nobody is saying amps are dead, some people are saying modeling is dead. Amp capture technology is rapidly evolving and getting closer to the real thing.
the only problem with the amp captute is that any time you try to modify captured amp with the "digital potentiometers" you are loosing completely the accuracy of the capture so it is actually pretty difficult to have the sound for every occasion - this is where modeling wins in my opinion
:) I guess its like those dolls :)
@BartoszXIV correct, but that new Kemper 'liquid' update helps... Thanks.
@@BartoszXIV should be captured augmented modelling.
They’ve been saying that for 20 years
They’re all tools. You can use several tools to get the job done. I just use whatever sounds/works best for the situation. I love tube amp, profilers and modellers. They’re all fun!
For recording, these modellers are brilliant. Having spent 40+ years as a guitarist trying to move from studio to studio, trying to recreate the sound I want to record in different rooms with a plethora of mics, I can now happily work away at home and send my parts to the producer with none of the hassle of the past. For live work, I'm happier with a few pedals and my Fender/Marshall Bluesbreaker combination but... getting older now, gigging is not as regular so generally the old monster tube amps are just sulking in the spare room. Amps, guitars, effects, modellers are, as you say, all tools for making music. Oh and the modeller I use? The humble Headrush MX5 with about 12 presets I use regularly. If it's good enough for the people I work with - including the BBC - then it is good enough for me.
It's a brilliant, if confusing, time to play guitar and especially to be beginning as a guitarist. Although I do wonder whether part of the player I am, and many others from the 70s onwards, is down to the limitations we all faced before the massive leap forward in technology and cheap, but excellent guitars, amps, etc? There is a "tyranny of choice" out there, but thankfully it's all so bloody good, you can't go wrong whatever you buy. Anything's got to be better than a crap Avon Les Paul copy with egg slicer action and a bad transistor 50 watt amp from the local secondhand store that I started on lol :)
Ha I remember the Ned Callan :) one of my very first guitars :). Thanks.
You can't do that! There are rules! You must choose, you can go all over the place.
... 😂
Playing the guitar is not just about the sound, but also the pressure, the feeling. It's an emotional thing. If I have a small flat in the centre and I just can't put a proper machine in there, then profiling is great because at least I can enjoy the sound. I wouldn't be able to use a normal machine there anyway. But on stage I want a proper amp with an amp behind me, not some FRFR.
Exactly right IMO. The feel remains doggedly extinct in the digital realm from what I see. They have a place, but not as a replacement. Thanks...
Yeah, it's a religion. It's probably fake but it's my religion. Something like that?
I might have agreed once, and it would still be my preference but I know a lot of seasoned pros who gig without amps and sound better than you and I put together.
It's not because they don't like the tube sounds, they do, it's almost completely down to practicality.
lmao just run your modeler through some speakers. The null test proves irrefutably that technologies behind Tonex or NAM are already 99,x% there, everything else is in the real of religion / opinion.
Dude Please live a 100 years in good health, you do so much good for guitar community.
I don't think all the other instruments are obsolete, but I sure like being able to capture my hand-built boutique amps and get the same sound and feel in a little pedal that costs $400. "Real" amps are awesome but they are also expensive, heavy and they get banged up - keeping them in the studio is an amazing thing!
Well I can agree that it's interesting stuff, but hardly groundbreaking technology as I have been doing that since 2011 with a Kemper. Sadly though, I have not a single profiler or modeler that is creating the same feel of the tube amp in question. The tones are good, but just plug in a 1959HW Marshall and be in wonder... there really is little that is the same in comparison of any of them. Of course I would be 'thrown out' of the venue :) but that's another story. Thanks for the post and for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial The problem is, you have to crank up that Marshall to 'be in wonder'. Often times, for a lot of people, it's not an option, for many different reasons.
I think tonex, due it's price, will allow more people access to profiling. In near future nux, hotone, valeton, donner etc... will go to produsce their own profiler too.
In my opinion cheaper tube amps will tend to disappear, while the higher end ones will still exist (as for painting/photography, film/digital photos).
For me modeling has more prospects for improvement in the future than profiling, but requires much more investment in each individual amp, costs that companies do not have with profiling, where the work is done by the user.
By the way Tonex software allowed me to find my next tube amp :)
(Naturally using the models made by the same user of multiple amplifiers, I don't think it's useful to use models made by different people to make this choice)
I think that the tube amps will slowly disappear too. That was really the reason for this video... and thinking about the people that build those amps... Ha great point on the Tonex software and your amp choice :) and also check the Kemper player if you get a chance... very good tones. Thanks for watching BTW.
I don’t think most people think that modellers and tube amps are the same things. They serve different purposes and have their respective strengths. The reality is that carrying big amps around is a pain in the ass and products like this fix that problem
Just trust me on this... many people think the simulators are the same or better than the real amps. I certainly am not one of them, and as you say there are differences for sure. Thanks for watching.
Modelers will take a hit in sales for the next couple years, but they will innovate and use machine learning within their modeling to go beyond just simple captures and the current modeling in the next 2-5 years. I think what's phenomenal about TONEX is it exposes more young guys/gals to what a REAL tube amp SHOULD sound and feel like, and might even drive tube amp sales as people find their favorites in profiles and say "I want that at home". I love tube amps.. as well as analog pedals. They will never go away for me, but I love that I can profile them and take a more compact/reliable version to a gig or practice and easily recall presets without having to turn dials.
Will the PHOTOcapture type unit Kemper/Tonex do Feedback from a snapshot type preset??? I know the modeller type does, I can do it with my vox tonelab se, just dial in higher gain/without a noise gate turned on.
Problem is, that many of the young guys will actually have NEVER even played a real tube amp. Plug in to a JMP100 Plexi, crank it through 4x12 and THEN you can say that you really know what tube amps are about... and later they tame the volumes :) Thanks for watching.
The topic of amp modelers versus actual tube amps isn’t so easy. In my humble opinion, I think the amp modelers have convenience and portability on their side. Obviously, someone who gigs regularly may consider that a terrific asset when trying to decide what to get. And yes, amp modeling and tone matching has come a long way over the years, so to be quite honest, the things sound not half bad!
But…. (There’s always a but)!
I myself own a Mesa Boogie JP2C, (with a Mesa Boogie Mark V before that) along with a pedalboard filled with all kinds of goodies. Maybe this is just silly, but when I plug into that amp and lock in my tone with the perfect effect for that moment, there’s nothing else quite like it. Sure, the amp modelers can give you all that too, but they can’t replicate the pride and passion I have for doing it all from the Mesa (and pedals) that I have working for me. The fine people at Mesa Boogie (and other amp companies) worked countless hours to get you the tones that give you goosebumps when you play! Playing out of a device that can copy something great is fine and all, but it just isn’t the same, and that’s all there is to it. Maybe I’m nuts (actually, I know I am), but that’s just how I feel. Is it a pain in the ass to carry all the stuff around (head, 2x12 cab, and pedalboard) when playing a show? Of course! But once I’m up and running, I couldn’t be happier, and wouldn’t trade it for the world. If I gigged regularly, perhaps I’d feel a different way, but I don’t. Just my thoughts. Take ‘em or leave em, but I’m with ya Tony. I hope the tube amps and companies that supply them stay around for quite some time.
Cheers, and best to you and your family.
Lenny Melzer
could not have said it any better
Lenny that's it - its all about the 'feel' (and of course the tone) but I do think the feel with a real amp is quite different. The digital stuff gets sort of near but lacks that feel and tends to remain 'digital' if you get me. The real amp when played through is very much more inspirational because of that mix of the two and there is no doubt in my mind that in my case at least the best results I can muster come from real tube amps turned up with a decent guitar. And here's a question... wem all logged those tube amps for years right? Are these new guys playing guitars whimps? :) (I can hear some now - 'I can't pick it up... booo hooo') just making people smile that's all! Thanks for the great post and for watching.
Tonex is the first modeler that has made me rethink the need for tube amps.
Really? Well of course that's OK but maybe some of it can be frustrating, especially when the software won't install on industry standard equipment... tube amps just don't have that problem...
@@johnb4024 I got that problem in a Vox right now, it only comes or shows up once the amp is well warmed up, someone told me when it comes to tap it with a pencil to find which one it is. And where to buy some NEW tubes??
Need? Maybe. But want....
Its not a modeler….
@@AramPino If you want to nit pick yeah but Its not exactly a profiler either.
People are saying only older people are buying actual amps anymore. I don’t think so. I really think Amos and digital tech can coexist. There’s a time and place for using both. It’s exciting that you can take any tone in your pocket, but it’s just not the same experience as having a real deal amp - and not just tube amps, but solid state too. You just dial it in quickly and get to playing faster. That’s not possible with all this tech. You have to go digging through profiles and tones to find good examples of just what you’re after, and even then, you still have to plug into something - a cab, combo amp, PA, headphones, etc. e people supposed to hear the music without having the old school solutions?
I can see where a TONEX and other tech can help people with limited money and space. I can see where it would be nice for gigging artists not to have to lug giant pieces of gear to venues. But overall, the TONEX is only as good as it’s examples and you’re gonna need to amplify the sound because the TONEX is essentially like a CD player without speakers. Gotta have a way to hear the profiles.
Amps aren’t going anywhere, folks. 😉 😊
Sadly... I'm older (ho ho ho) and I buy lots of digital gear AND tube amps, and guitars, and pedals and... fill in the dots :) You are exactly right IMO re the digital stuff. Honestly I'm not biased either, when the digital gear gets to the same place I'll be the first to agree, but it's still off a while I think. Amplified digital? Kemper. :) Those sound pretty good for 12 years - but that's a 12 year old device... surely past its sell by date. I expect to see a new Kemper sometime before they stop making the chips! Thanks for watching and the post.
The point is Tube Amp employees have nothing to fear, just like factory workers making ICE vehicles can laugh at Ev's
Sadly, the life of the simulators is about 10% of that of decent rube amps... no one mentions that either.. thanks for watching.
Opposite: more Tube Amps will be bought to be profiled When Kemper was being demo'd in 2011 it was directed at Studios to profile the amp tone the Artist got in case of much later overdubs were needed and the profile could be used by the Artist on Tour to reporduce their Amp tone saving freight costs. Same still applies but someone has to create the new Amp tone everyone wants
Spot on!
I don't disagree :) but as no one ever raised the points I made the video... and thanks for the post and for watching.
Different generations want different gear.. I was lucky enough to buy a Engl E650 when I was 18 so I could play live and practice with a 'real' tube amp. But I couldn't affort a 2200 euro Dual Rectifier... Still can't! So getting great tones at a small price is great for creativity and new guitar players to start with great gear as well... I think it's great that great tones are becoming more affordable! Sorry for my bad english ;) Cheers from the Netherlands!
Yes I get that of course... check the review I just posted on the Laney... it is a surprising little amp with a twist...
I totally feel your frustration. At last in my guitar playing journey, I’ve got a collection of three valve amps - A Fender Princeton 65, VOX AC15C1X, and a Marshall JTM Studio 20 watt combo. And now I feel like they’re becoming redundant with all the new tech. It pains me to have to now think of selling this gear on, to be in line with the ‘evolution’.
Great channel, Tony, really like your content.
Thanks for the kind words. Don't sell the amps... you might well regret it later. I have seen, used and owned most simulators and while the 'fan boys' love them, ask the tube guys what they think and its a different story. The 'feel' is generally missing from the simulators. Nearest? probably Kemper. Look cool amps there too. :) Thanks for watching.
My father worked in a coal mine. Finally they were all closed so he had to search another job. My point is that everything evolves. Will this capturing/modeling technology take tube amp manufacturers out of bussiness? I doubt it but people will always adapt to new circumstances. They will find another job. Where doors are closed other ones are gonna open. This whole digital thing is here to stay and will evolve rapidly. More and more guitar players are making music in their bedrooms in their small appartments. A tube amp has no use here because you cannot use them at their sweet spot without getting in trouble with your neighbours and a tube amp at 0.5-1 volume sounds nothing better then a modeler/profiler anyway. The music bussiness has changed. More silent stages appear. In our town you are not allowed anymore to bring your amp with cab. More and more cities are doing the same. Governement rules... Pfff. It also saves space in a small pub. We are not allowed anymore to produce more then 95 db in a pub. This digital revolution is far better controllable for the sound engineer/pub holder. My precious tube amps stay at home and I bring these tones with me with the Tonex pedal. All the digital devices nowadays produce accurate tones. It's a matter of choice if you want build in effects or not. It's the monitoring system that gives you an amp in a room sound/feel or not. These current FRFR speakers/wedges sound like shit and that can be and will be improved in the next few years. The good old times with a blasting marshall tube amp with 412 behind you are gone. It's a pitty but life goes on. Times are changing. And now I grab a beer. Cheers
I get it - but it really is hilarious how the 'times are changing' when they are trying to simulate old tube amps... its so funny. Thanks for watching
It’s not going to be the death of modelers or amps in the next decade or so, but you can certainly see the trend if you look at a larger time frame.
Many younger guitar players are not as convinced in the old school belief that classic tube amps just sound better than captures or digital modelers. I think that was the case 10-15 years ago, but the difference is getting smaller and smaller every few years. And younger players I speak to in our shop don’t hear enough of a tone difference to justify the huge price difference. More and more of them are going digital.
Which is a big reason that tube amp sales have been flat while capture and modeler sales have been exploding.
And that has been the case even while Axe effects, Kemper, QC, etc are still almost as expensive as a tube amp anyway.
So I think the hype with the ToneX is that for the first time, you can get captures from tube amps in a device that costs 1/5th the price of those other devices.
That has moved the needle a lot with a big portion of our younger guitar customers.
It’s not going to change big budget musicians at all, but it does seem to be having an effect on more budget conscious young guitarists.
So just keep an eye on it for the next 10 years or so as some of these young bands grow up and emerge, and then we will truly know how much impact this kind of tech really has on the old school brands.
Good points. Of course, there is no emphasis on what those tube companies might create. I doubt they will 'sit back' and just let others 'take' their tones that they have taken many years to make n the first place. Someone might/could gain with legal protection of those tones and what then? Good points and thanks for watching...
From my point of view everything has “changed” as Tonex has made owning an amp profiler affordable. That’s the point for me
Scarily - there's already a free one! And 'that changes everything again'. :) Welcome to the merry go round. but don't forget the guys that lose their jobs because some device (or software) clones the amp tone that took years to create... its the one thing every one 'forgot' about. Thanks for the post and for watching...
I have tube amps, modelers, many pedals. I’m waiting for my Tonex pedal to come in. 150 amp captures at your feet. Looking forward to trying it out. It is great technology. I’m 61 years young.
I don’t play in a band. Use what you want! It’s a great time to be a guitarist!!!
Ok you have your beloved amp, cab, and fx. Hopefully you have people to help you move it around. You have to mic it up to play your gig or record it. The tonex pedal solves a lot of issues.
Play any amp out there bye loading it on to your pedal via computer. Most people can’t even tell the difference if it’s a real amp or a capture. Especially in a mix most people don’t care as long as it sounds good!!! Isn’t that all that matters good tone. And having fun playing. Some people want to have a huge tube amp collection. Others want to have great tone!! There’s no right or wrong. I prefer to have all the choices I can!! I have thought about selling my amps! I don’t even use them anymore. But you always take a beating when you sell gear!!
You SHOULD check the Kemper player... it has 22000 profiles of amps that are very good. Build is excellent too... thanks for the info on your setup too and thanks for watching.
I don't think amp modelers will ever put tube amp manufacturers out of business. What will hurt the tube amp manufacturers the most is availability of the tubes they have designed into their amps to get their particular sound. The tube design and the way they are design into and used by the circuits is what gives these tube amps their signature sound. When the manufacturers of the specific tubes that go into these tube amps go out of business, like a couple have already in Germany, that is what will cause tube amp manufactures to start to have problems and could cause them to close their doors just because of the unavailability of components of their amp's designs. The BS we are seeing from the Central Bank System in this world is what is causing the economic problems for these company's and all other companies in the world. So, let's put the blame for any of these company's going out of business where it truly belongs, on the buttheads that think they can control the world and us with their false and inflated monetary systems. The only thing that amp profilers do is create healthy competition between manufactures to build a better mouse trap to sell to the consumer. Competition is good and beneficial to the consumer in any market.
It's a good point re Tubes (or valves as they say in the UK). But there's far more to it in my experience. Even to the plywood they use at Marshall amps! The lead guy said that they had trouble sourcing the really good plywood that they are known for using these days in the cabinets - he said there were issues with poor quality coming through that they were stopping and it had been solved recently. But in my own experience the electronic components remain a real pain for most manufacturers - its not 'just' tubes. I'm not entirely sure that it's just central banks or the other stuff that could be blamed though. Marshall Group (after the sale to a partner company) is worth $350 Million so its not a money shortage problem really. Remember that profilers have been around for at least 11 years (I bought my Kemper in 2011) and the modelers even longer. I can agree with you on the 'control' aspect, I won't post what I might think on all of that - ha some might not like it ;-) I do think you have considered what I said and made a good reply, whereas some guys don't 'get it' about the point I raised. But I can tell you that in manufacturing particularly of components and 'chips' etc. it all remains hard work really. Thanks for a good post and for watching too.
I actually bought myself an Engl Steve Morse signature amp a couple of months ago after using just my Helix for years. I love my Helix and I will always use it for effects and midi switching for my amp. And I'm very happy that I can use it at home into my Two Notes Captor with a good IR. And sound wise, I don't think it matters much, the audience isn't gonna notice any difference. I got myself a tube amp, because I missed the feeling of an actual amp through my Mesa cab. I don't think amps will ever go away, all the profiles and amp models are based on actual amps so
Yes I have said many times that the audience knows generally little and does not care - they are there for the music. It's something often overlooked on the internet stuff. I also use the Helix in a rack and the floor controller for generally effects but sometimes the amp also and it's not bad. The 'feel' of the amp is hard to describe really, but again I agree with that, and its one reason I have about 20 or so... each has its own character I find, even amps with the same tubes etc. ARE different. Thanks for the post and for watching.
I agree. You cannot trust RUclips influencers when it comes to gear. Look at the early Quad Kotex hype. Over promised, under delivered.
That it seems is true sadly and has been for a long time. I started this channel in 2009 because of all of that. I tend to 'break them down' in to what are the following categories: 1. Sales Videos 2.Fans of the gear 3. Argumentative heathens (yes really) 4. Guys that have never actually owned the gear 5. The rest (add your own reasons here). I honestly know very few out there that do similar to what I do (I guess) but I started to create my own reviews because I was absolutely sick of the 1-5 points I mentioned here when all I wanted was a truthful reflective opinion so I could buy whatever it was or not. These days I never trust reviews its sad to say. A good point and thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial I agree. 95% of RUclipsrs reiterate the EXACT same scripted bullet points of any given new product. Not to mention use crappy factory presets and uninspired playing.
I forgot to mention, before I sell any real tube amps I plan on exploring the Synergy pre amps , if you haven’t looked into those already, check it out I have a feeling this will be more of a realistic substitution for tube amps . It’s expensive it will take awhile . If all you play is some genre of metal I think you can get by with the Kemper which you have .I will reply when I play around with the Tonex . Cheers !
You know what, those Synergy amps remind me of the Egnater stuff from many years ago... like the Randall Lynch amp (I owned one) and while the idea is a good one for me it all seems like for Synergy that its all been done before. I have a sneaky feeling that Bruce Egnater is hiding in there somewhere :) This is the Randall Lynch Amp I owned... was used by George Lynch in Birmingham England: ruclips.net/video/BeGn8rXrHqQ/видео.htmlsi=negjUgH2-PgNvuKP and thanks for watching.
Love it when people ask me ‘why don’t you buy a helix?’ While looking at my big sky, timeline and iridium on my Pedalboard. ‘Oh, it’s the new thing. Everyone has it!’ 🙄🙄🙄
Like other people pointed out here, it’s not just about the gear. Tone comes from the fingers first. Gear is rather secondary. That’s why a good guitarist sounds amazing even on a cheap squire and a cheap amp.
Thanks for this video! Maybe an eye opener for those fanboys out there.
:) Thanks for the post and for watching...
Interesting video. I’ve been using the AFXIII for several years now exclusively for recording into Pro Tools and I’m really happy with it. I’ve owned several different modelers over the years (not Kemper or HELIX) and I think I’ve found the perfect tool for me. I’ve also owned several amps over the years including both tube and solid state. I currently own a Marshall DSL20 head going into a 2x12. All have their place. I actually prefer the tone of the AXEFXIII over the recorded tone of the Marshall, based on my experience. I’m sure the TONEX will find its place too with some people.
Same here.
The Tonex will be fine for some guys and also the Fractal stuff I agree, its all about what works for the player realy. Thanks....
I've had a digital studio of some kind set up since the early 2000's (had a tape setup before) and I have tried all kinds of ampsims, IR's and similar guitar tech, including the new Tonex ap. I have often used S-Gear when tracking and still do. I also mic real amps in studio and have only ever gigged with real tube amps. I like all the tech thats available today...pretty cool stuff, but have no intention of getting rid of my tube amps or my guitar pedals/effects and I also don't see any of that stuff disappearing anytime soon.
Ha you sound like me :) Thanks for the post and for watching!
In a nutshell? Tonex-no delay, no chorus-400 dollars (US)-learning curve is steep to learn and remember where and when you make your settings with all the dual functional dials.
Kemper, Helix, Fractal (huge waiting list) and Quad Core-all 1800 + dollars (US)
I don't give a flying F**K about modeling-I don't have a set Marshalls from the 60's or 70"s or a 4000 dollar Mesa Boogie any amp for that matter to profile.
Correction: I have a Pignose practice amp-Wow-that's in demand isn't it?
Only reason I like the Quad Core is the graphic capability to "see" how to add amps, cabs, effects etc. The one large guitar store 1 hour away from me has a Kemper (1700 dollars) that you have to "pay" to demo? I thought I was going to purchase the Tonex but the user interface and no chorus or delay made that decision for me.
In my opinion, the Tonex was rushed into production and marketed as a "game changer". (It's not)
I seem to recall in the last few weeks there was a submarine that was "rushed" into development and production. We all know how that turned out!!
There will always be tube amps-and all the modelers that have profiling capabilities are fighting to be the best (this is a game changer) Absolute BS!!
Thank you for your video-especially making the statement that you do not receive any "free" gear.
Well thanks for a post that I generally can agree with! There is much in there that indeed I do agree with. I don't have the 'Quad Core' either sorry, some say they are great and other differ - I guess we're all right really. Yes I really did buy this gear. I have made just a few of the 420 odd videos where I have received the gear but sincerely I always do tell what I find. Some like that and some don't of course, but to make simply sales videos for others is not my cup of tea. I ALWAYS look inside for the things that no one ever shows ;-). Thanks for the post and for watching.
Honestly, I don't do much with ToneX. I have a JetCity JCA22h, Randall RD-5, a German hand-made SS-amp, some expensive, some chinese pedals. The problem is using this stuff when you play and record in your living room, too, not only in your home-studio upstairs. As soon as I start using IRs I consider my whole chain compromised. The world has literally run out of time. When I was young I remember changing loudspeakers, trying pedals, recording with 4-track tape devices (LOL). Now, this seems to me like an alien world. From time to time I go back to my amps, especially the RD-5 which doesn't need a load. But then I think, why not using NAM and start one of my favorite amps I never bought: The Laney GH100. And my god, it sounds and reacts so well. Yes, we will live in a world where many amps will go extinct. With those green and woke parties switching on a 100W amp will also make one hesitate in the future. Sad.
This is exactly it really. Ther IS a difference, and no matter how some people 'dress it up' that statement remains. Great point. Thanks for watching.
Wow Tony spot on! People don’t stop to consider if there are no real amps around to sample, the sampling software will have nothing to feed off of. Unless in a bizarre twist of AI these machines start to cannibalize one another’s library of tones😮 lol.. I was using my laptop back in 2012 wwith an audio interface and an SM 57 with profiling software that was available back then, before the Kemper hardware really truly became a thing.
This is exactly my point... and Ha I really don't follow where it would end. No new amps, no speakers, no new pedals, nothing... its almost like sowing up your mouth and crawling up your own a****** :) eat yourself? weird... but I guess we live in a 'weird' world these days. I bought a Kemper just a month after launch and there was a real thing going on at that time for sure. There still is with some of them. But you know what, 'this changes everything' is a laughable joke that is repeated (or regurgitated) over and over through time and the current guys that favor the view often agree of the 'seachange' and how its the 'end of the world' which to be honest I doubt that change will 'change everything' as the guys financed to say that conclude. Great cmment and post and thanks... and for watching of course.
Something you didn't touch on - the amp modeller models the whole amp. A ToneX capture is just tiny snapshot of an amp at certain settings. If you deviate from that, then the sound of the original amp is gone. I don't think this has occurred to many people just yet, because they're so busy having orgasms at cloning any amp. I see them in the social media comments, they're thrilled at have snapshots of dozens and dozens of rare boutique amps. These people clearly don't write or record music because you don't use 100x amps when you make an album. You usually use 1 or 2... 3 or 4 at most. These people are just gear nuts frothing over the latest shiny thing and are more interested in collecting tones than writing and recording music.
I just recorded a release with my Helix. I used an ENGL with ENGL IR's for my high gain tones, and I used a Roland Jazz Chorus running through the ENGL IR's for my cleans. Two amps. Not 100x. Two.
I think modelling is here to stay, and the best route for digital amps will be hybrid units that do both. Clone an amp if you want, but have full models of actual amps.
Most guitarists don't actually understand much about audio engineering and guitar tone. They already had unlimited tones with their Helix's etc, because they could use IR's which simulate mics and cabs - the biggest part of where the tone comes from.
Exactly... Thanks. I own a Helix rack and like that but some of the other stuff... nah not for me. But I do like the real deal tube amps too :). Thanks for watching.
Just been having this conversation with my wife. But the flipside is that we have a depletion of raw resource. AI and tech in general will preserve the sounds and in the future, no doubt we will be making sims from sims, a bit like a star trek transporter. Henry Ford would probably have a few comments about electric cars! I'm in my 50s, been playing Orange and Marshalls since I was 14. It's sad to see so much history, science, manufacturing and technical skills being replaced. However, I've played the OR virtual amp in Tonex and it is every bit my old RV50MKI. There is a revolution and like it or not, we have to accept. Rather now than later before we run out of the raw materials and have nothing to play. I guess we are at the cusp of entering into a frenzy of tech development that is going to impact on every aspect of consumerism. Welcome to the future, but not necessarily the one we hoped for.
About ten years ago I created a comedy video (the Focknrollers) and we made some trailers. One was by (the guitarist Carlless Sultana) and he showed making a profile of a profiler :) you're not far off. :) Go on laugh... ruclips.net/video/caEhIa3D6kA/видео.html more at focknrollers.com
Am I mad? Likely....
I agree with you. But I also believe that the tube amplifier is absolutely essential for a guitarist who wants to experiment with sounds. Profiling is done on real amplifiers. And a profile, at the moment, consists only of a "snapshot" of the amplifier with precise settings. All the infinite variables that can be extrapolated from an amplifier cannot be contained in a handful of profiles. However it is likely that the cost and convenience of digital will greatly reduce the purchase of tube amplifiers. It already happens. But what's the point for an amateur guitarist to buy a 5,000 euro Friedman if he then has neither the possibility nor the practical tools to exploit it? Who can push a 100 watt Plexi around the house and record with a microphone? Yes, we can use something like a Torpedo Captor and IRs, but how close do we get to digital sound? Is it worth spending so much money? Sure for some people yes, but for most?
I will never part with my tube amps, in fact, I will continue to buy more and more. But I will profile them. Digital, as I see it, is a great tool. Unfortunately it will have its drawbacks in the market. We can't do anything about it
The digital connundrum is a sticky wicket currently. I have had many profiling bits of gear. I still never really get what the amp creates -although the 'this changes everything' brigade tell me otherwise. Like you, the amps are not going anywhere. I come from technology since 1981 and have seen many things, vapourware, promised upgrades, even pay now and we might ship someday, no software, you'll know what I mean. There's another aspect to the problem of digital profiling too. NO ONE EVER talks about it but I can and will in a video, but as a short intro, the particular chips used come and go. When those chips cease production - throw it in the trash - because there is no other solution. Ever. Tube amps can at least be 'resurected' one way or another... but not a peep out of those reviewers that are creating reviews for sales only. Sadly. Thanks for the post great points... and thanks for watching.
I think amp modellers, etc. are very convenient and good to record in a DAW. No need to mess with micing up and all that. They are also good for bedroom players who can play thru headphones.
The real tube amps are more for serious users and professional musicians and studios
They all have their place
I agree, but I would not like to see amp makers, speaker makers and pedal makers all get closed down? That was the serious point behind the video - and the boys with 'this changes everything' are possibly (likely) wrong :) Thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial Hey if solid state did not KILL the tube amp. what chance does Computer/solid state have?? What worrys me more is all this Silent Stage trend going on. no amps on stage, that is really ridiculous, the stage is not a STUDIO. WEIRD. And yet most drummers still prefer acoustic drums/cymbals.
glowing bottles of tone forever
Yippeee :) Thanks for watching.
There’s a place for both. People will continue to purchase modelers for the convenience and affordability factor. People will purchase amps for experience they offer. Just like people will continue to both stream music and buy vinyl as well.
But how nmany buy CD's ;-) Thanks for watching.
What for me is a far more pivotal point which very very few reviewers have mentioned is the fact that the business model means only being able to acccess what you pay for in terms of the number of amp and effects models - even though IM do provide access to a couple of included packs - so you are going to have to pony up for any specific models you need which are not included in those packs, making this potentially considerably more expensive than the starting price point. Personally I disagree with that entire pricing model. And in addition to this, the free software version of the Tonex technology which I downloaded onto my PC really wasn't at all convincing and seemed very limited. Based on what I was able to access I would never have any desire to try out either the Tonex or Tonex One pedals. Compare this with companies like Kemper or Axe-FX who include vast amounts of amp and FX models along with continuous updates and improvements for which no further charge is made. I know which business model I prefer.
Personally the TONEX did not really perform for me, with software problem dating back two years. I asked them but no real reply - why was I surprised. A 'cheap' product is exactly that. You do get the item, the software and bugs included and of course unlike Kemper and FA (well maybe, G66 support maybe but fractal supporting me I doubt that). In any case the lack of support is because of the cost involved. Then your scenario jumps in... now pay up or else. It's typical of many 'cheap' items these days. Great point you made and basically I agree. There is so much better for that extra bit of money I think. Thanks for that post and for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial Thanks Tony. Nonetheless it must be said that the Tonex One would have been a really promising product which before cottoning on to the software financial model we discussed I was really quite excited about. In fact, it wasn’t before downloading the Windows and iOS versions of the trial software and seeing how limited it was that I realised that the Tonex One is likely to remain almost entirely dependent on its software, and that software certainly does not live up to the hype in all the RUclips reviews I’ve watched. In a way I’m glad that I didn’t dive into that particular rabbit hole.
By the way Tony, I wondered if you wouldn’t mind answering a question for me? Is it possible to run digital effects between a load box and the amp speaker, rather than from the line out? Sorry if it sounds like a stupid question, but my combo lacks an FX loop, so I’m just looking for ways to use time based effects without being affected by the overdriven signal going into the front end of the preamp.
When you mentioned the idea that the sound people are looking for are ampless. I think there’s more to think about there. Maybe that’s the biggest threat to tube amps; no one remembers or even experienced what they sound and feel like. Then the baseline becomes profilers or modelers. Anything that sounds different is different.
I agree. A few years back I bought a Marshall 1959HW (I had the originals back in early 70's) but until I actually plugged in that amp after very many years of not doing that - I had literally 'forgotten' just how that amp sounded and importantly 'felt'. It really sort of confirms what you said here, its hard to compare if you have NOT done that. I was amazed at how that amp sounds when you plug in and sound IS subjective, but I can say I have never found a single device whether modeler or profile that is 'the same' as that amp, plugged in with its 1960a speakers. I get it... simply because I DID go back and check that amp. I still own it. But when there are no new tube amp designs, no new speakers, no new pedals etc. then the crunch happens. Sadly.
One serious problem is: tube amps have gotten astronomically expensive over the years. For one reason on top of another, the price keeps going up. I bought an original USA-made Peavey 5150 back in the 90's from a local music store for $750. It was brand new. Today, an EVH Stealth 100watt costs $2,400 in the USA. And the damn thing is made in Mexico! Inflation is part of it, but not all of it. Guitar players are always looking for alternatives. The AxeFX-III is super expensive as well. And it's not even an "amp"! It won't drive a 4x12 cab. It's a "pre-amp". We need to start getting away from tubes. The Boss Katana Artist head is a great choice. I also like the Orange Super Crush 100. Leave the tube amps in the recording studios, and RENT them. If you just play at home... stay away from tube amps. Not worth it.
The scenario you mention just makes a good case for buying USED tube amps or even lunch box tube amps for reasonable prices.
@@KaddysJamKave All tube amps fail. And when they do, you need to get them fixed. Also, tubes don't last forever. Do you have a good source to buy new tubes? And when you install those new tubes, you need to bias them. If you like fiddling with stuff and wasting your money, by all means, go buy used tube amps. It's the hobby within the hobby. I need to practice more, instead of tweaking settings or trying to get my tube amps fixed. Gear is not as important as the player.
@@TheCyberMantis Wow talk about a pessimistic view on reality. Most of your points are not true at all but it would be an awfully lengthy rebuttal that I can't be bothered writing... So you just do you... I have no interest in swaying another person's worldview.
@@KaddysJamKave Nice try. ALL of my points are true. You just don't like hearing the truth.
@@TheCyberMantis ok mate... Whatever you say... I better ignore my 30 years of experience and listen to you. I'll sell all 12 of my tube amps right away...
Amp modelers are not killing amps because we use amps to play them through! We use them in conjunction. The difference is Tonex is affordable where as a Kemper/Quad/Axe FX is much more expensive. I think if anything amp heads will be less expenseive in tomorrows market but the cabs will still always be needed for live use. Id like to play a show where we can all use the same Marshall cab and guitarists in the different bands just come along and plug in their amp modeler pedal in, rather than having to mess around change them between bands.
SOME guys don't use amps in the way that might generally spring to mind. And 'amps' covers a multitude of things... take the Kemper powered amp profiler as an example. I get your point of course, but watching companies go bust (or as currently being 'taken over' is not for me a pretty sight, and if companies were to go to the wall, then of course so do the employees... its an important thing to remember, and in my opinion not a great way to watch the demise of tube amp companies - if indeed that would happen. I can buy a PRS MT15 for under £500 and nothing wrong with it. Sure its not at the top of the pile, but its very well made and is a low cost tube amp that does sound very good. Well I guess there are plenty of ways to plug in - the frfr stuff is there re amps and that's probably very possible of course I agree. The TONEX raised the question of 'it's the end of the modelers' they said, and 'this changes everything' old phrase but in reality it's likely to NOT be the TONEX that changes things in the medium term for many reasons. Thanks for the post - very interesting and thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial hi Tony, I completely get your point and the last thing I’d ever want to see is the amp companies we all know and love go just. After all, without them there would be no tones to profile on amp modellers. You can’t beat a big stack at a live show and I’m sure recording studios would still love to record the sound of an actual amp rather than a clone copy. That said, I wonder how these companies will adapt and evolve to cope with the seismic shift in trends. Either they will focus on speakers or amps that can integrate more with amp modellers, or we are on the brink of something new and different. Either way, interesting times ahead.
Thanks for the videos I really enjoyed your take.
The only difference between the Tonex and the QC or Kemper is that they made it so you can separate the capture from the usage and performance, so you can travel with it more easily and you use your computer for the processing part of the capture rather than the device itself. In reality this video is 5 years late.
Ha fair enough I guess. The other difference I found was that Kempers software is worlds apart - it works! whereas the IK Multimedia was a bag of er... sh you know what. Thanks for watching.
I think in general the amps will eventually sell less overtime. And it's not just because of the profilers.
The profilers can only sell when they have something to profile.
Modelers... In general the modelers try to emulate something that is on the market, but there were some attenpts to model out a sound that isn't based on a real amp.
What will definitely hit the amp sells are the daw plugins.
I don't know how many amps are sold to bedroom guitarists, but for sure that public will gravitate towards plugins.
Unlike a tonex, you can actually steal a plugin, like any other piece of software. I mean of course you could steal a tonex u it from the store, but that probably would not go without notice.
Now stealing a piece of software is waay waay easier.
And you can be 100% sure, that among the population of bedroom guitarists, that will be the way to resolve their lack of amp problem.
What it means is that amp manufacturers will focus on actual musicians more.
And on that topic, lets be real, a person who can afford a tonex, was never a target of manufacturers like soldano or bogner or diezel.
Only the really big names in the business were carrying these to the shows. Rest of the bands just used them in the studio.
The guys who will take a hit are for sure marshall, bugera, fender cause they have a quite big portfolio for bedroom guitarists.
I can only guess they will just shift production to make frfr speakers, cause at some point the bedroom players will want to play a gig or two, and they will have to amplify the signal from the profiler or the modeler.
What is definitely good about profiling devices is that if you can do a good profile of an rare amp that you have in your collection, then you can take that sound into the concert venue. The morr profiesional guys already did that with kemper. So if the audience can hear a sound they could listen to on the LP, i guess that is a win win situation
The audience listens to better audio, the musician does not have to carry an expensive rare piece of gear.
Agree in the context of existing players. But I do wonder if today's 12 year old with a gigging and recording future ahead of them will see valve amps as a logical progression as they grow. Will they want to go from lightweight tech that does the job to lugging amps around? Time will tell.
I think there are very many 'bedroom' guitarists actually, far more that many would disclose. And maybe they might flip to software, but there still remains a difference. Ha using the plugins without buying them I'm sure that goes on all the time... just as software theft has since at least when I started in computers in 1981. Very few actually solve that. On those amps lets not forget Vox, Friedman, Diezel, H&K, Mesa Boogie and very many more too. I have a Kemper since Jan 2012... and the 'profiles' are not really the same as a real amp... and Kemper's recent 'liquid' release of an update that makes the knobs similar confirms it took over 12 years to do that simple enhancement. But you are right in many ways of course; but the real test is what does the audience think of the tones? IMO many of them don't even know or care... but there again, play with an 'off' sound or feel and make no mistake the musician will undoubtedly not play as well and would be less inspired. It's all down to what the musician feels themselves and 'is it worth' actually having a Bona fide sound. Thanks for this great post and the video was geared around getting guys to do that...
Tube amps aren't going anywhere. Looking forward to your Marshall video, best amp and cabinet I have and its no clone!
Still nothing like the touch dynamics of a good, cranked, tube amp-speaker-guitar connection, not to mention the heady scent of hot cookin' power tubes in an old amp cabinet. 😁😁
I can agree :) Thanks for watching.
I bought real amps for my studio, and Tonex for profiling MY amps for touring.
The thing is, when you create a profile, you create a snapshot of ONE setting of the whole chain. Can't fiddle around with it the same way it would react in the real world. When you have a profiler, you (or somebody else) still NEED a real amp to create the profile. It doesn't kill the industry, just changes the ratios a bit
Fair enough point and as a Kemper owner I did know that - but Kemper has worked to resolve that issue (they might say) somewhat these days. I don't believe Tonex has. But its a good point. Sadly, with over 22000 profiles of amps on the Kemper Rig Manager alone, it really will get to a point where you won't have to profile any longer IMO.. and for good reason, the amps won't be made in numbers as they always were and the development of new and exciting tube amps will dwindle. I sincerely doubt that people like Mesa Boogie and Marshall would 'sell out' because of anything except most likely a decline in production and sales. I'm sure that 'there will always be some' tube amps made, but it was reminding me about hi-fi turntables... that faded in to obscurity generally and - are making today a 'comeback' which in itself is a bit weird. Thanks for the great post and for watching too!
I think it’s gonna be like that =
- amp modelers claiming to «sound like » real amp will die or offer some neural network profiling like ToneX or NAM (the Rolex of machine learning today)
- high end modelers will offer «perfect virtual amps » which will differs from classic ones and offer « unlimited » tweaking and new amps nobody has heard or play before
- real amp will become like sport cars. Some passionate rich dudes will collect them and pay a lot for a fewer production ones, and capture modelers brand will buy them also to sample them like IK multimedia already does.
I think amps will not die, what will die is big amps and we will see more small not heavy 25w amps that look cute at home 😅 and sound cool. People still buy those amps and I think they’ll continue to do so
Good points... but I can buy a used PRS MT15 for less than 400? Those tube amps are not for the rich only and honestly, I do think the tube still has it currently. But great point and thanksfor watching.
Great video Tony, I’m old school it’s always been a 100 watt tube head or a 50 watt head , through a 4x12 cabinet with pedals, Marshall and Laney are my brand I’ve always been a fan of the UK craftsmanship, a well built amp will last you a lifetime if you take care of it, My thought on these products are they are a fad , let’s hope our beloved Tube amps live on.
Well I watch them. The fad I have watched since 2011 (12 years) and other than cheaper processors etc. many will tell me its all better... but the Kemper was doing it in 2011... and that says such a lot really. Is any of it 'better'? Nope... Meanwhile guys like yourself bought up on great tone AND FEEL, know the difference. Mee too and unlikely I'll be selling my amps. Thanks for watching.
I did see one other channel bring this question up. Unfortunately, I can't recall which.
Here's the thing: true as it is, all it will take is for one generation to come up without the experience of having a tube amp pushing air for tube amps to disappear.
Already at club shows, groups are using these modellers and profilers over actual amps. It's almost standard.
There's numerous reasons - cost, chiefly - most young people can't afford an apartment, much less a tube amplifier. But also there's the question of storage. Plus, most bands don't play at the literal deafening levels we did, they don't need anything that powerful.
Things change, not always for the better, but that doesn't stop it from happening
Not from what I see... and a tube amp can be bought these days for about £100 ($125) even that weighs less than your guitar. No effrect on tube amps... hmmm... there has been a tremendous slow down of new tube amp models being released in to the market currently make no mistake about that. And I can't buy Mesa amps here in the UK, Marshall are slow currently, and most brands equally slow. Is it the fault of gear like this? Maybe so or maybe not, but read all the posts and you will find that by far the majority remain firmly focussed on tube amps. I 'get it' for the post and thanks for that as it is a good contribution IMO and of course thanks for watching.
I am about to buy a Tonex because I have 3 kids and money is tight. I would love to have 150 tube amps but I can't even afford one. I play at church and a tube amp in that setting is just too loud. What I see happening is the same thing I see happening with guitars. The tube amp makers will sell less and charge even more for what they do sell. These digital knockoffs will become what Squire is to Fender. People with deep pockets will continue to buy the real amps and the working class will go the cheaper digital route. I am old too and the thought of lugging a tube amp around and 4x12 cab doesn't interest me at all anymore. The major amp makers already see the writing on the wall and have started moving digital to keep the lower to mid-priced amps moving. Look at the Katana for instance. I have 2 of them I run in stereo and when talking to music stores they sell more katanas and sparks than anything now. Many of the music stores have stopped even stocking the tube amps except for the smaller affordable tube combos. Will real amps eventually make a comeback? Time will tell I guess but when I attend concerts for the last few years I see Helix and Axe FX on the floor more and more and rea amps less and less. The tones I hear out of the PA sound killer so I see why even artists with deep pockets want the simplicity and dependability of digital amps and effects. You are the first I have seen to look at the big picture and what this means for the music industry. Pandora's box has been opened and I don't see tube amps making a comeback anytime soon. Great video!
Great points... but I can buy a real tube amp for about $130.00 and as heavy as your lunch box? As for cabs, again not really necessary as there is other gear that you can use... all in all about total the same price as the Tonex. Let me ask you this, when your software stops working and cant work the Tonex any longer because some software company went bust, how will you use your Tonex? on the other hand, the amp will run for the rest of your life! Its a great question that no one ever seems to answer. Amps will reduce in numbers I agree. And you have some great points... but being dependent on some software company is not really a very good idea... Thanks for watching.
I wouldn’t fret (lol). This product just made stuff available to people that may have previously not been able to afford some of the equipment. Tube amps are great, Helix are awesome, Fractal, Neural, yadda yadda. This is a product for people like me that wanted a little more than what the Walrus ACS1 or the Strymon Iridium offer for our $$$. IK didn’t launch some preemptive strike or trash talk anyone or any company as far as I know.
Unfortunately, I’m getting the same vibes as the in the car world. You got a bunch of folks driving their Porsche and Maserati stuff and hate that anybody found joy in something that they didn’t have to get a loan for.
“You think they’re behind you but they’re ‘bout to lap you.” -J. Santana
You should buy a PRS MT15 (going on eBay for about $500 or less) and the sound I have to say is entirely real! Actually the reason I created the videos from here, is the INCREDIBLE amount of hype put behind this TONEX unit by YT reviewers - and sadly, generally they were given the units. The result? Huge and incredible hype of the product over and over ad infinitum. I tend to call those 'sales videos' and not actually proper reviews. Go and watch them and you'll hear the 'this changes everything' and 'modelers are dead' and a host of other diatribe that in reality is pretty meaningless. Honestly I don't think that sort of thing is helpful to people that want to see a product without the bias and hype - just the product... It's why I made the video review and later added this video to highlight what could happen (not particularly with the TONEX itself, but with that technology of profiling) and people could actually lose jobs. For me, that really is an underlying aspect of the technology that no one ever addressed anywhere. And YES! I get it re Porsche etc. as I have personal experience of that. Thanks for the post and for watching.
To me, modelers are like sampling synths. Very convenient for live performance but doesn't have the mojo of the real thing. People tend to judge value based on cost. Tell me this. Each time a new modeler comes out, people say "It's so much better than it was before. You can't tell the difference." However, I don't hear them saying it's better than the amps that they model?
You raised agreat question for many 'new' things. For example, the Axe FX II was the best in the world and you won't need another one... type of mentality... then came Axe FX III which is 'better'. Does that mean that 'hey we sold you a load of cr** last time, but now we've fixed that - this is so much better'? Ha I laugh at most of the claims put out - Oh te old one was junk right? or was it? NOONE that sells the stuff (of almost any music gear) ever will answer those sort of questions of course... and you touched on it - a REALLY good post. Thanks for watching.
Spot on, I use modellers as it suits my needs the best but there's a place for everything tube amps to axe fx to tonex. I'll never get guitarists who think every new product has killed everything else.
Exactly. I also use amps and digital as necessary. Everything has its place but 'this changes everything' is so stupidly funny. Thanks for watching,
What’s dead are taking Marshall stacks onstage. With the era of silent stages becoming the norm, regular amps are being forced out for some of us that play live.
I agree they are... with the resulting loss of those brands and the employees that work there... That was actually my key point.. Thanks.
Modelers and profilers are great for
Making recording easy and accessible.
But some of the coolest recordings turn out great because of the limited gear. Turn the knobs on the guitar/amp, use the pickup selector. The more complicated the gear. The more time
I take endlessly obsessing over tone. A real amp and cab/ some effects. It’s plug and play and I get to do what I love, play the damn guitar
Right on! and thanks for watching...
The Tonex is ok. That’s as far as I am prepared to say after using one for the last few days. It doesn’t inspire me to go back to it though, in fact, I have decided to send mine back. A few reasons. Firstly, I a/b’d the Tonex against my Dream 65 pedal. Some of the tones were pretty close to be fair but the Tonex doesn’t have Dream’s reverb. The amp is called a Deluxe reverb for a reason, and UAD’s sounds awesome. Secondly, I ran a few pedals into both units. The Dream did remarkably well at keeping the feel, the Tonex just felt compressed, didn’t handle the dynamics of output volume changes from the pedals. Thirdly, I like to tweak on the fly when recording guitars but felt that the Tonex eq just wasn’t that great. More importantly, when changing the gain on the Dream you hear what you expect to hear, as you would with the amp. Changing the drive on the Tonex just doesn’t give you these subtle characteristics of the amp, and how could it? It doesn’t know what they are. If anything, I would say that amp profiling has had its day because this is what it is and always will be. Modelling software on the other hand will continue to get better and better. So, in summary, Tonex will get you some decent tones but it isn’t close to the complexity and just pure joy of a decent valve amp. I think the market for Tonex probably includes a fair few players who have never used a decent valve amp. For those that have, it ain’t even close.
Also, I have played guitar for 20 years, have owned tube amps, have toured w tube amps.. I am also an audio engineer and producer… have worked at big studios in L.A, so I feel like I can judge this and to me your last sentence is wrong. Tonex sounds amazing.. it just sounds to me like you do not know very well how to get any sound you want w any tools you have in front of you.
I agree that the Dream 65 Pedal was great re the 'feel'. Something that many/most devices of digital nature simply don't extol. Recently I carried out a limited survey re Tube Amps and are they doomed so to speak. There were over 200 entries and the No they are king response was actually about 83% the rest falling back to digital in one way or another.
Hey Jiroe, Chris was making a point... which he is entitled to on my channel without being nasty to other visitors. Me? I like to see reasonable comments without personal criticism like "it just sounds to me like you do not know very well how to get any sound you want w any tools you have in front of you" and honestly, for someone that has 'been around', and with your great ability, that sort of thing is not really befitting. It's OK to apologize to Chris if you want to and thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial there’s nothing wrong w my comment, I did not insult, I did not use any swear word, if you want to read too much into it… go ahead. I said what I said. As a professional to me his response sounds like he doesn’t get the concept which I was taught from the very beginning: achieve any sound w anything you have in front of you. There’s nothing nasty about my comment. It would be nasty if I was insulting him or something like that.
I'm a Line6 Helix owner and user for the past 3 years. Straight to FOH with iems. I'm also 56 and been playing for over 30 years. Love my Helix but..... the Tonex feels way better than the Helix models.
I too have a Helix rack... and to me the Line6 gear was far superior, mainly because of the oh so bad software and cr*p support form the Tonex mob. I started out never having seen IK Multimedia product before and thankful after the review that I did not have to use their horrible no support product software any longer. That was a true opinion based on a real review of both products actually (I reviewed the Line6 Helix some years back). Thanks for the post as it does show different opinions based on personal experience and that's exactly what is needed on a lot of the gear out there today... and thanks for watching.
Amp companies have been on a decline for years. Gibson buying Mesa, and now Marshall has been sold.
Plugins, modellers, and captures are the reason for that. Only way they can survive is diversifying or innovating.
Why buy a new amp (from most amp companies offerings) when many haven't changed their core product amps for years, and you can pick used up off Reverb or facebook marketplace for a fraction of the new price?
Will that mean there will be no amps to capture? Nope, there are thousands of amps out there that will run for decades and cycle round the guitar community.
I'm guessing there will also be some demand for new real amps, probably for longer than we all have left on this planet!
I've slimmed my physical amp collection down to just one - I'm not alone!
Are modellers dead? Nope, but I bet my house that most of the big players will release hybrid modeller/capture devices going forward.
The only company so far to really do that is Neural DSP with the QC, but they've overpromised and underdelivered and thus left a bit of a stale taste for many.
But you can only capture one 'snapshot' of an amps position at a time...
True, but that will eventually change. Just like we've seen the recent 'Mikko 2' cab plugin, that manages and interpolates thousands of IR captures. We'll eventually see the same with capture technology.
And let's face it, most real amps only have a few sweet spots in them anyway, so you really don't need to capture every setting. Pre and Post eq'ing and boosts can handle the rest!
But captures don't sound or feel like a real amp...
Us guitarists are stubborn buggers with major resistance to change, but reality is, some of them do.
Pretty much anyone who's tried out the open source NAM capture plugin with a good snapshot will tell you that. And it will respond to volume and touch just the same as the real deal. The resulting null testing can prove the diffences are so small, your ears won't know the difference in a blind test.
Many of us mistakenly listen with our eyes rather than our ears.
I absolutely agree with your comment on this next one though... People really should take youtube reviewers claims & statements with a grain of salt. 99% overdramatize to boost their clicks and are essentially paid to advertise.
I don't believe that capturing 'the same old amps' would actually do anything for the profilers etc. in fact I think they too might then make way for some other idea. Who knows what. I agree that Neural did compromise their standing. The 'snapshot' is also a very valid point of course and its always been that way from what I see. You're pretty much right I think. For me, the 'faffing' around with some not very good software remains a feature that is best left alone, there IS good software too of course (check Kemper and Line6 Helix among others). Not a single channel raised the question about if you were employed at the tube amp factory or you made products specifically for that type of product, and so I decided to create the video just to remind people that it's not 'just' about profilers really, it has a far more important effect on the overall guitarist as they are today. I did carry out a survey of a few hundred people re tube amps... and the resounding total for them was around 82% with the rest being in favor of the other technologies really. Which was interesting. Great post and thanks for watching.
I believe as long as there are guitar players who want tube amps, there will be tube amps regardless of whatever non-tube wannabes there are. You're the man with the tell like it is, no bullshit plan Tony! Keep up the outstandingly, exceptiona andl excellent work!
I feel like in a mix no snob would be able to tell the difference between say, amplitube and whatever amp the software is emulating, however, i am a tube amp lover and an amp sim lover, so for me each one is not better or worse, its just that one has advantages over the other (like, my maz 18 sounds better than an amplitube maz 18, yet the amplitube one sounds really good too and i can play through headphones and record covers)
@@s0da.-. Nailed it - horses for courses. It's what you think that matters and what makes getting results easier so you can focus on playing 😊
Thanks.....
@joseph-ie1sf I get it re the comment - but there generally is a difference but in a way differently described I think. The person who WILL tell the difference is the guitarist... reason being is that the 'feel' is different, and in my experience personally and chatting with others, that feel can inspire the musician to create something that otherwise might be OK but maybe might have been substantially better when the guitarist is 'in the moment' so to speak. I have had it happen with only one digital device since I have been reviewing since 2009 or thereabouts and that was the floor version of the Line6 Helix - and I recorded it at the time. If you watch the Helix review here: ruclips.net/video/q9J6A9uSDGo/видео.html Now you might or might not like the music, but that Helix really did (just once) inspire. It was near enough the first time I played it after setup and no doubt in my mind that it 'had something' going on. I never really felt that way about other gear (whatever it might have been under review) and neither did I get similar results subsequently when using the Helix floor unit. It's an interesting subject for sure... may be because I was 'excited' to try the Helix... whatever, but on a decent tube amp I remain far more inspired by the feel of the amp (and of course the mix with the tone) than when I use digital. Each has a place... and I'm no snob - I just know what works best when I use them. Thanks for the post, it was interesting.
I think where this gets interesting is serious bands wanting to record with real amps but tour with modelers. They are easy to set up and less finicky than the rigs of old. Metallica, for example, uses AxeFX III now for live shows (as do a lot of other touring acts). They record with the Boogies but found the Fractals far easier for Road Life and you'd never know live. Now you compound this with hobbyists, like myself, using a fractal and not buying new amps (Although that is more due to keeping the wife happy).
Demand will drop for $2k+ tube amps and some manufacturers will not survive. I still think there is a strong base for them but we will see the market retract overall for tube amps.
Interesting points of course. Bearing in mind it's 'unlikely' that Metallica do anything except walk on play and walk off is an interesting aspect that certainly does not see them arguing that the 'gear is too heavy - these darn tube amps have to go' sort of thing... yes maybe Metallica are less bothered about their live tones? or worse, are more bothered about their recordings and don't care about anything else? Ha the more I think of this its a VERY good question... Hey Mr Hetfield.. (I'll call him that just to be safe!) tell me the truth why you do it? Ha... I'm having fun of course... just joking around, but it IS an interesting point. Thanks for watching too...
Man, you're damn right!
I would never spend $400 on any type of pedal . I don't care to lose my ass on something that won't last. And most modelers all use the same chips that others use. That to me is ridiculous . I bought a used Roland ( boss.).Gt 6, that does it all for $200. That was over 6 yrs.ago . Thanks Tony for showing us .
Well thanks for the post and for waching too.
Can the Kemper and Axe-FX do what they do for a fraction of the price they currently sell for now? No ... and that is why the ToneX will force them re-invent their products. They won't go away, but they will have to re-invent themselves and come out with new products that come in at a lower price point. Who wants to pay a higher price for processing in a proprietary box like the Kemper and Axe-FX, when we can do that processing in the computer? I'm a ToneX boy and I love it ... I love it so much that I sold my Kemper simply because I don't need it any longer.
Careful... there are many that want to use the Kemper and Axe-FX at any price. I'm not particularly one of them, but its wrong to assume no one buys them... they do. Like most digital solutions they tend to have some issues, notwithstanding in the case of Tonex, if that company ceased to be - then the unit might not be so palatable when it stops working. Kemper and the others won't stand still, and when they do move it forward I'm sure that it might well be improvement over Tonex, at the very least re the software that failed to install on Win 10 that I experienced. Good points in your post though and thanks for watching.
Tony, I have to disagree. I honestly thinks it changes the landscape, thats for sure, but does not replace valve amps. They are gonna replace the cheap crap that all these companies put out for loads of money like the Marshall MGs, the Line 6 spiders and so on. But, just like the Joyo Bantamps (amazing sounding amps and loud enough for 90% of the gigs out there), the Tiny Terrors and the Marshall DSL didnt ruing the whole premium valve amp market. They are not aimed at the same players. Touring musicians do like having the convenience of tone matching and carrying something that weights 500g and not 20kgs. Beginners like to have access to great sounds without breaking the bank (and they had it before the modelers with the plugins and scarlets 2i2, the irigs and bias fx). Still, you need the real ones to create new sounds, studio guys prefer having the real ones most of the time.
In fact, I would argue they are good for business. Having a good sound inspire you to play, it makes you feel better because it sounds pleasant, that leads to practice, that leads to love for music and, ergo, fancy and overpriced guitar amps - which I own a couple, and a ToneX.
Just like affordable and great guitars did not ruin the vintage guitars market, even though a lot of modern guitars do sound and intonate way better than older instruments, having great sounding affordable gear is not gonna take the big ones out of business, actually its gonna put more people in love with music, and guitars, and lead them down the rabbit hole. My students can all play with the toneX, its right here, it sounds great... but they always prefer the JVM410. Do they know how to twist the knobs, set the gain, or do they even get to play with anything past lvl 1 on the master? No. Yet, they still want it.
Its not a rational thing, having a modeler is a practical solution for practical problems. It is good for people to have good tone at affordable prices, it is good for touring and not breaking your back. Still, we buy the fancy heads, the 412s, we have 5 or 6 amp heads and we still buy the 7th, 8th. We have loads of guitars and we buy more, that will be played once every blue moon, we have a drop tunning pedal, and we still have guitars in different tunings. We buy overdrive pedals just because they are red instead of green.
So, dont worry, the amp market is safe, more than that, its gonna do great, there are a lot more guitar players and people exploring the guitar around than in the early 2000s. There are guitar brands, higher quality instruments, PRS SEs, Ibanez Genesis, and every other day a new guitar brand putting impressive stuff out. And people still buy their Gibson's (even when they have the same headstock problems since forever). Things are gonna be great.
You made some great points, and making a video like this has sort of stimulated the thinking of many (read the posts) including yourself I think - its exactly why I made it. It's not that it WILL happen, but there is a possibility because no one can truly read the future (think Mesa and Gibson as an example or Fender and Presonus) least of all me and you :). But didn't you notice something? Not a single reviewer mentioned that point about people losing jobs at all? Your points are all possible as are mine... but the lack of consideration by ANY of those so called reviewers really shows a lot of the reality of how it all works, and I guess when they get the item for promoting product then maybe there's something lacking re truth underlying the review. BTW the amp guys I have spoken with are very adamant that the tube amps will remain long term (based on a survey I'll be putting in a video) - the results are interesting and are based on real survey rather than anecdotal opinions that we can all create. I did do a few different surveys etc. too and that should be worth taking a look when I get the video on there. I'm on vacation currently. Thanks for the great post - appreciated and thanks for watching.
I have a Kemper Profiler Rack and an Axe-Fx III, but the most fun is to play a good tube amp with a great pedalboard.
@@KoRNeRd Having time with the best gear available is fun - so I don't think about that. But I understand, that not everybody is in that position and I think it is good, that these people can get good stuff for less money.
Yea, I prefer an amp with a suhr reactive load if a cabinet is too loud to use over a modeler
“I went down to the crossroads
Fell down on my knees
Because there was no power point
And I forgot batteries”
Brilliant :).
Some people in the 80s/90s: “Digital Sampling will make proper instruments obsolete.” Nope. 😂
Fair comment. Thanks for watching.
I still have a couple of tube amps and love them. But I also have a Helix and I enjoy using it quite a bit. It sounds good and feels good. It’s not quite a tube amp but it works well and I don’t have to burn through tubes just playing in my basement. My 5150 head costs about $500 to retube now. I’ll always have a tube amp but I like modellers too.
Yes I'm a bit like that too. I have both types of gear. Having said that, of the two technologies I do own, the modelers (or profilers if you will) I do tend to sell more often once I have 'had enough'. It always pains me to let a tube amp go... thanks for watching.
100% agreed. I have a Headrush modeller and 3 tube amps and I still spend a lot more time playing my tube amps. As close as people say the modellers and profilers are to the real amps, I can hear a difference.
headrush prime now has profiling
Thanks for sharing! and for watching too! Appreciated.
Tony, A.I. is the future. We will eventually be at a place where a product in a way not far away from what Sound Hound does will analyse a guitar tone from an audio file and boom it will give you David Gilmour's tone from the comfortably numb solo. In the same way it will give you any classic or other guitar tone that you have ever heard. The amps will no longer be needed as their tones have already been recorded in countless recording studios. It is not a matter of if but of when. Will it happen in our life times? Your guess if as good as mine. Tonex is just the tip of a very large iceburg. But the future is coming and for me it cannot come soon enough!
I get that, but from what I see of A.I. the eventually might be further than some might think. I have been using A.I. daily for a number of months and the corrections and re-writing etc. not to mention the incorrect facts makes me think that's still a while off. The point still remains that those tones were CREATED by the amp makers and IMO it is even morally wrong (as if many care these days) to simply take them without thought of the originators that invented each and every amp. It does not make things right, just to take the tones, and ha I could even guess that maybe it would produce a very interesting court case... maker against tone 'cloner'. Unlikely I know, but never say never especially when peoples livelihood is at stake. What I would say is this... I have used these types of devices since 2011 and there are so many modelers, profilers etc. and after a while I do have to say that they (all of the digital devices I mention here) all tend to sound pretty much the same... a digital tone and without the feel of the real deal amps. It's just an opinion of course and thanks for the post because no one is wrong :) and thanks for watching.
The beauty of this is that it makes it cheaper to get a taste of expensive boutique amps to those with a tight budget. The other usefulness is that it makes touring way easier with a smaller footprint. Will this replace tube amps? IDK but at least in a live gig setting you are gonna start seeing less real amps and more digital rigs.
Well that might be the case or not. Some do have issues with the Tonex and others seem to be OK. Thanks for the post and for watching.
I think this pedal is for live gigs where its very hard to carry a marshall fullstack. I'm a tube amp guy, but this pedal + good pedalboard does the job in live gigs or silent recording in apartment. Tube amps are unbeatable and these kind of units cannot replace the real deal amps :)
There IS a place for all of it of course you are right, and thanks for watching.
Good video - all ages of technology are reflections of the needs and desires of their time - it would be a sad world if we banish our memories.
Imagine the cost of the workforce if all that came to fruition? Scary...
As long as modelers and profiles try to catch up with the tube sound, tube amps will be the reference. Profilers just creates snapshots, they might match the tone at a specific setting but apart from these settings, it is all generic....The most important fact is, tube amps aren't electronically perfect - all the non-linearities, parasite issues from components doing stuff they theoretically shouldn't do, contribute to tone a lot, so we use "perfect technology" to simulate non-linearities and parasite influences - I call guitar sound design an artform of failure, which makes it so difficult for digital designers to catrch up with their concepts to simulate analog behavior. If they fully understand the "artform of failure, they could possible use their skills to write algorithms that control these parasite side effects and this would result in sound design above traditional tube amps, but I doubt that any of these brands ever will get there , since most of them put their focus on *the artform of failure" aka understanding how to get even closer to detail with their algorithms so they can simulate the reality as close to reality as possible ;)
A very interesting post for sure and there really is much in what you posted... great point. Thanks for watching too.
Great vid...nice to see another opinion for a change. The band Morbid Angel recorded one of their guitars solos with a glass lightbulb casing around the mic...techniques in the studio playing with REAL gear create novel music that stands the test of time. The worst thing for me is modellers and the like are killing unique music. Hendrix, Gilmour, Mudhoney, Entombed...all created unique sounds by messing with their hardware and started whole genres of music which we now strive to emulate. For an amateur bedroom player like me though modellers give freedom and chance to muck around doing different things on limited budgets (I'm using a Digitech rp500 -£50 used) does what I need it to in an okay way...means I can make psychedelic rock or slam death metal and save myself a few grand!
An important point for sure and one I did not mention. Thanks for watching too.
I ordered this pedal. But not to replace my amps. After all your review of the 5150iii 50w stealth helped convince me to buy it. I've played with a few modeling software captures and some cab IRs, but they're not the same as the heads and 2x12 in my garage. They are a lot easier to record with, for me and my budget. But I am also a drummer first and foremost and the guitarists who actually show up to studios and shows have tube amps, the home studio solo producers will be the ones exclusively playing modelers and profilers. You can't IR a 4x12 through headphones or monitor speakers and experience 4x12 tone. You can't capture the full range of an amp in a profile, just the range where it's knobs are profiled. But you can get a taste for yourself of what a Diezel VH4 or a vintage JMP can do dialed in which is pretty neat.
Yes I get what you're saying for sure. I do use digital technology sometimes myself too. I also like the amps because when I can crank them they do sound 'different' and 'feel' different to me. But great point and post and thanks for watching.
Great content Tony, and here's my take. I love pedals and enjoy integrating pedals and processors for fun. As long as you apply MOORE's law you can generally wait it out and save a great deal of money, and have the massive library of sounds from online content and updates. I don't have the time to chase every possible tone and combinations so I'll let the professional take that role and just enjoy playing. Keep the videos coming!
Yes that is often a convenience choice really. And I get that for sure. I even play around with the pedals and digital gear myself too. Thanks for watching...
You’re missing the point of the ToneX , yes sure people that don’t buy amps aren’t going to start anytime soon but those of us that do have the amps is I can clone my arsenal of amps and install them in a pedal that weighs 3 pounds , play my ToneX through the loop of my Boss GT1000 (my case) or Helix , HXStomp or HXFX , put my Boss effects in front and behind the ToneX for a light weight rig . I can’t carry my JVM410H as easily as I used to and this makes it easier to take my amps with me
Rockerverb MK3 100 is another one I prefer to leave home , the heaviest amp I own with the least channels and no boost
There are many low cost and light tube amps around. The weight thing alone is not really the best of gain to apply I think. There are of course other advantages of profilers, modelers, and indeed tube amps. But personally I tend to grab a tube amp rather than faffing around with the software that does not (often) work. The Helix software is exceptional and so is Kemper's - and I own both. But like everything, we all follow what's best for ourselves really I think, and you touched on that really. For me the Tonex adds far too much 'baggage' when I can get the tones and feel I want in 30 seconds and at any settings... you'll know profilers operate effectively at the settings that were there when the capture was created. Not so with a tube amp. In any case, good post - appreciated, and thanks for watching.
The real moment when everything changes will be when some AI creates a model from scratch that sounds and plays better than any actual amp. It may look at all of the tube models and create something that is tubier than an actual tube can be. The tones that are produced by a tube are limited by the physics of our universe. For instance, a model with moments of absolute silence between each note of a super chunky riff, while having sustain of biblical proportions with feedback that plays as if it is reading your mind.
You are correct in saying that there needs to be a source for the AI to work with. However, Chat GPT can generate code to satisfy requirements given to it in plain English. But it is just leveraging code patterns that humans have written.
I love this bit " tubier than an actual tube can be" :) It reminds me about Fractal Audio and their Axe-FX V2 - they said in some European ads that basically you will never need anything else :) Ha then they released V3... I get your point... but I think way off in time. My own experience with Chat GPT is that it gets lots of things wrong, mixed in with some good info... when I use it for something I am very knowledgeable on, I see the errors and they stand out a mile. But good point and thanks for watching.
To those who rejoice that tubes amps are dead with ToneX ... what the hell are you going to capture if they are gone... use the protuberance you have on your neck people? Also, on capture is 1 tone, not a whole amp. I see it to be very useful for touring and gigging, no hassle always getting the same tone and just eq for the room and that's it. For home practice and studio, I will keep my tube and solid state amps thank you and I will complement with pc plugins and modelers. It is safe to say the market will change, but unless people really are that stupid, and I don't think they are because they will still crave that actual hardware "I own it" feeling... guitar players are like that, gear craving hoarders and that is not changing any time soon :)
Ha I just read about 'hoarding' guitars... I guess it could be a similar thing... except of course someone will own the stuff, if you don't then someone will. So 'hoarding' is a rather strange way of describing things. I actually do use my amps - not by the hour of course, but amps (or guitars for that matter) that I don't like I always sell. Seems logical :) and I tend to agree that amps are necessary to capture them :)
Nothing beats a real amp
🙄
Apart from two real amps
a whip? anyone?
Thank you, I am done with RUclips guitar channel. The Lies has gotten too much for me. Guitar, cable, pedals, tube amplifiers forever. .
Rock on! And I'm not disagreeing :). Thanks for watching.
The thing I am watching is KEMPERS and Line 6 response both are different type one photo captures/profiles, and line 6 a modeller type. Obiviously the bigger assault is toward kemper, who has more or less sat still for more than 10 years, at a high price point. It will be interesting the next year at least. I think Tonex fell short not being able to have a unit with all the Amplitube 5 capabilities, no effects built in, no compatibility with Amplitube to the Tonex Pedal. So we will see.
I agree that Kemper device is old. The software they do update, but I remain concerned that a device at 12 years old is due an update of that there is no doubt and I have been expecting one for some time, but its all quiet on the western front so to speak. I found the support on the TONEX to be lacking and with the problems I encountered (some had them two years ago on same basic software) I was not convinced really. Thanks for thew info though and of course for watching.
I occasionally get a pretty fair tone I think. I've never been able to get it without an amp and I've tried.
Here’s the deal… you wanna get the best out of modelers? You need good speakers at home. We’re taking about maybe $1500 for a pair of speakers. You want transparency that will translate extremely well no matter what venue you play in. That’s the problem. You want it to sound amazing in a record? Again, You need to dial in the tone in a good room with good speakers
Yes amps still do make a difference for sure.
@iamjiroe great points... and I can buy a tube amp (at least in the UK) for as low as £500 and even the cabs are not that expensive here.
I use nothing but QSC. It still doesn't seen to have more than a sort of 2 dimensional (I don't know how else to say it) reproduction of a sound that you can just feel out of the right amp. Admittedly I play mostly clean. Nothing beats a Fender tube for clean.
Ya shame on you GLEN AND KYLE SORRY JUST CALLING THEM OUT !
Ouch...
I won't be arguing with any Kemper or Line 6 owners, or anyone who owns a real amp. It's real competition (as far as I'm concerned) is the Strymon Iridium, the Walrus Audio ACS1, and the Boss IR-200, and to a lesser extent the Universal Audio series of amp pedals. Compared to those alternatives, the Tonex pedal really is a standout. I'm not in a bleeding war with anyone, and I can sift through whatever hype (or shade) is thrown at this product from various RUclipsrs. The only thing the TONEX pedal has put an end to, is my search for a box in a certain form-factor, that does certain things, at a desirable price point.
I get it of course... this video is not created to make any type of conflict re what some like or otherwise. It DOES have a serious story to it though, but that's not really about anything in reality other than when people lose their jobs because of things like the 'copying' of tines for example that have taken many years for the amp makers to master. Thanks for the input re the other pedals too. And thanks for watching.
I consider buying a ToneX to capture my tube amps. No more lifting an AC30 around for gigs. In the Studio I'll prefer the "real deal", because the ToneX will only capture one specific setting at once. I can fiddle with the amp settings in the studio, and when I'm happy with it, I'll capture it to reproduce that specific sound live. Just get the best of both worlds, instead of continuing to break your back lifting these heavy amps.
Check out that new review I just posted on a Laney amp... worth a look! Thanks.
I got suckered into the "modelers" as a beginner guitarist. I wanted 100 presets and 100s of effects. In the long run I sold it off and bought a DSL100 and a Triple Rectifier, along with three cabinets. Best decision. If everybody has the same modeler, and presets, you will sound like everyone else. I also hate fiddling with software. Great video!
That’s a ridiculous claim, you buy a triple rectifier and you will sound like everybody who’s got a triple rectifier 😂
you sound like everyone else who has a triple rec lol. By any chance do you boost it with a TS? Either way it's very original and you sound like no-one else playing it lol
@@xx-----------xx873 maybe where you are from but here in the U.S triple rectifier were extremely popular, I played one for years. There’s just not enough amps for the amount of people out there to sound original… also let me tell you about carrying that 100 lbs amp on your 😂 I’ve done it and I do not recommend
@@iamjiroe Where I'm from in the UK we use sarcasm, we even make concessions for the yanks making it bleeding obvious and yet it still went over your head lol
@@xx-----------xx873 haha ok but you can’t expect me to get sarcasm in a comment 😅 it’s harder to know if it’s actually sarcasm or for real
You make a great point Tony. Here is what will happen, in 20 years the Tonex will be a piece of digital history that we will laugh at how primitive it was. The same way we look at the first Line 6 Pod. Lotsa nostalgia
Probably correct - it all moves on. Ha will we (well you might I'll probably be where its dark) be discussing the latest Marshall digital amp and mentioning that you liked plugin X and others liked plugin Y. And the wealthy guys loved the plugin with over 1m bits... :) Thanks for watching.
100% in your corner with your views. They talk about no longer lugging around heavy amplifiers, and, in the same breath trying to sell us FR FR speakers to play these Profilers/Modlers through. If I have to bring an FR FR to a gig, I may as well bring my heavy Mark IV.
Trying to sell us more crap that we don't need through these grifters.
Exactly... and thanks for watching.
As an old school metal player, when I started playing as a teenager, it was always the dream to have a real tube amp, but who could afford that as a teenager? As an adult I’ve played/owned them for years. While I do use amp sims, & I do have an AxeFx 3, I also have an EVH 5150 III & a Marshall cab. To me they are great for different things. I love modeling/profiling for recording. I think IRs are one of the best things ever invented for recording! BUT…that is of a guitar amp sound that is mic’d up. That does not replace the amp in a room sound. I like them both for different reasons. I really like the sound of a real amp into a 4x12 cab when I just jam to have fun. I always do that for practice or just playing. I use the axefx 3 is what I use to record with, as a tool, but I have fun with my real amps. That’s kind of how it is for me
Great info and thanks for the post. I could guess we all do what we 'think' is best. I have lots of gear, but I do tend to stick with real amps and cabs for recording 'proper' stuff. I have had a Kemper since January 2012 or somewhere there and you know most digital stuff can sound OK to good, but I prefer the real amps - it sounds and 'feels' somehow different... there's little like a really good amp and decent speakers and the setup is pretty instant. But I guess its horses for courses :). Thanks for watching.
Neural DSP all the way. It's like having all the best amps. Tired of big heavy heads and cabinets. The future is bright.
Oh well. So what about all those employees that lose their jobs? All end up with no income, all because some company came along and maybe (figuratively) stole the tone? There certainly is more to the situation than many think and its why I made the video to highlight this point. However, great for the post and for watching...
@@tonymckenzieofficial How many employees will loose their jobs?
I really enjoy the hot take Tony. I agree with your sentiment. One thing the digital crowd have in common is that they are all chasing *Tube amp* tones. Give your money to the people who actually designed and produced the legendary tones we all love and chase.
Exactly.
It boils down to $$$ when a young kid is trying to make a choice as to what they want to do for gear and start looking at $500 vs $2000+ all but the ones using mom and dad's money will likely go the economical route. Tube amp manufacturers would do themselves a solid to make their products affordable to the people who are buying them.
That point is not lost on me for sure, but the problem is, you CAN buy a tube amp for just over £100 right now! Here: www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_mighty_5th_b_stock.htm and I've even reviewed it here: ruclips.net/video/sO7yC1e-2l4/видео.html of course they don't suit everyone, but in reality they are light and low cost AND have real tubes in there!. Good point and thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial I totally hear ya. But today's kids and the next generation of guitarists will be hard pressed to steer away from their phones and what not. Another 5-10 years and we'll be asking where all the pedals went when everyone's iRigging into a tablet.
I have a room full of tube amps..and I love them..but it occurred to me awhile back,that EVERY guitar tone we have ever heard,is NOT an amp in the room flapping your pants legs,it a mic’ed up amp/cab,in another room,monitored by FRFR speakers…It’s a different thing entirely than blasting a Marshall thru a 4x12 in the room…it’s that sound filtered thru a microphone…I think both have a place,and they always will….I use both,depending on what my needs are….
I agree there IS a place for both technologies (especially in the studio).
Tony, in one point you are right: nothing sounds like a tubeamp. But sometimes it’s fine to have a modeler or a modeling software, because I can create sounds that my amps don’t create. And sometimes it’s great fun to mix-and-match real amp sounds with the sounds of modelers or modeling software. I think both worlds have a justified place in a studio.
Its true they do both have a place. But, if you watch the whole video, I raised a number of points to be fair, but the most important one is the people that could be out of work that currently work making tube amps... when the volumes reduce and makers have to let workers go. Sincerely I hope it never happens that way. Thanks for the post and for watching.
Hey Tone.
Am I the only bloke that's noticed how the peeps who tell you it's great having 'x' number of virtual amps in one box, are the same people who instead of having a basement full of amps, now have a basement full of amp modellers - instead of a load of 'boxes' that make different sounds, a load of boxes that all sound the same?
You're not alone there. I was discussing this very thing the other night after completing an audio section of one of those boxes. My comment was (and I won't hide it) 'after a while all these digital things sound the same'.. ) and I really did say that. I have looked at most of them since 2011, true I missed the odd one but in general that is my conclusion to this day. They simply don't have the 'feel' factor IMO. Thanks for watching and for the post which is interesting.
First, people who defended tube amplifiers said that you could never truly emulate the tube sound. Now that its has been achieved, many seem to be afraid. I believe that we are witnessing a paradigm shift. Both can coexist, and in my opinion, neither an amplifier nor a guitar should cost 3,000 dollars. Often, priced are inflated, and that's why people turn to simulation
Some create the sound as you say, but I have yet to find ANY simulator that replicates the feel while playing. They are very climical compared to tube amps...
@@tonymckenzieofficial For now...wait 5 or 10 years more and see...The fact is, now is Very similar to the Sound, the small diference of "feeling" on the guitar player, its not a 3000 dollars diference ... that IS the point, anyway, cool video! I like your Channel ;)
I agree 100%.
Are Tonex peddlers telling me that it's better to have a realistic silicone women's doll, than the real woman?
I'll play the real thing and they can play with their dolls.
Ha brilliant... and I totally agree... hold on, I'm just going to give the silicone doll a bath... :) Classic and thanks for the laugh. Thanks for watching.
A few will still make the amps, but respectefuly we do not need more amps being built in mass, we just need people to profile what already exists In fact, I've created over 300 profiles with ToneX both with boutique real world gear and also with virtual amps - with IRs and simulations of IRs. Therefore a physical amp isn't even techincally needed for the "profile" tech in a pedal to be relevant. There are plenty of guitar amps out there for those that want them, a tube amp isn't something that just dies and goes into a landfill after 5 years. There is a reason why amps from the 60s (yes, SIXTY YEARS OLD) are still being used, bought, sold, and profiled. The tech is built to last. We just need a good "play back system" there is a reason why people playing tiny venues still use tube amps as the PA systems can be garbage. But if you step up to real venues - suddenly the sytem is good enough. The point about TONEX you are missing - is the tech is finally good enough and affordable enough that buying an amp instead doesn't make sense for the majority - people are playing at home where they can't crank a tube amp, actually care about their hearing, etc. The "capture tech" of 2010 didn't change everything becuase it cost $2K to get the device plus more money to get either the gear to profile or to buy other peoples gear. With ToneX, you don't even need the computer. A free version with a $100 interface and you have the same tone, it is crazy. And you spend $300-400 on the pedal you have something you can literally gig with or take to a recording studio. The days of 100 Watt amps are for the most part over except for a very small portion of players.
Tonex Is a no-brainer, especially for the gigging musician. Trust me the audience is not going to know if you used a $2000 amp or the Tonex pedal. If what you play sounds good that are all the people including myself care about. Loading and unloading big amps and cabinets is really no longer needed in this fast-growing rate of very high-quality technology in the world today.
You raise good points and thanks for the post. But its no longer 2010 and you can buy a great amp for £400 ($500) these days with lower outputs and control devices. And as you say, they will still be working very many years later. Whereas the 'trailing edge' chips involved in the digital equipment moves very fast. Expect obsolescence fast... taken over by others and then no repair parts. Since 2020 I have seen over and over devices that have chips forced upwards from say a $1 part by suppliers to a $10 part for the exact same chip... if you can even get it. Then there's the software... usually cloud based and with bugs - and not very good support (no one cares) and if a company goes bust... look for a trash bin for your shiny digital device. That's the reality today sadly. It's not that they sound particularly bad or anything like that, but these points are not anecdotal, I have seen them in reality personally and trust me, the maker CANNOT solve those issues. Lastly on those tube amps... there really is more than 'just' tone going on, the amp 'feels' different and can be far more inspiring than the digital equivalent IMO. Good post and thanks for watching.
After 7 years with my Helix I took the chance and bought a Quad Cortex. The only regret I have is not making the change sooner. The Quad Cortex simply the best I've ever tried, I just downloaded a few captures and that was it!!! Future is here, Tone X is not for me because I'm not using a pedalboard anymore and of course, I have the Quad Cortex. I'm saying this because people are dissin the capture feature saying that is a gimmick but I'm a believer.
I get that. Some criticise the maker for not doing what they originally trumpeted in the initial sales comments though. Does that bother you in any way? I don't have one so I can't really comment on this... but thanks for the post - all useful... and thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial yes, Neural promised things that are still pending and I get it but I’m not bothered at all. I rarely use the HX Edit for my helix so I don’t really need the desktop editor but I understand the frustration of the users that need one. For me the most important thing is the sound and the Quad Cortex delivers. Not only the sound but the feel is almost like an amp. In addition I don’t need to tweak endlessly like I did with my Helix to get a good sound. Anyway, hopefully you can try one in the near future, keep up the good work Tony.
Missed your video's Tony. Hope your well mate. Straight to the point and I agree. I went 100% digital and never looked back. All the best from the Lake District 😊😊👍👍👍👍
:) I need to teach you... (NOT) :) and I trust that at least a few guys visited your free downloads for the stuff . Thanks for watching and the post...