Excellent video! We run Waves SuperRack Performer on a NUC alongside a Wing for our mobile church plant to enhance the vocals. My philosophy is to start simple with the basics. Gain structure, compressor, EQ, etc. Get an excellent mix first. In my opinion, the plugins are fancy icing. They add an extra touch that's nice to have, but not required. For redundancy, we use the Wing's built in main/alt input selection. If Waves were to fail, one button push and we're back to direct stage inputs.
Some plugins are game changers though. For example, when I put Waves SSL v2 on a vocal or acoustic guitar, things start just shining and it’s very easy to get them sound right with very few tweaks
Funny that you referenced the Amish. I do a big two day event for a nearby Amish community. Several stages running at same time and parade sound. Great people to work with.
The one plugin I don't wanna mix live without anymore is the Waves PSE. At least when it comes to your typical rock/metal show in a way too small location. Haven't found a better way to prevent vocal mics from turning into shitty sounding drum overheads. 😅 (I know some consoles have a PSE built in, but the sidechain ducking function of the Waves PSE makes it just so much more powerful.....)
Being a professional plugin software developer and part time live sound engineer I really appreciate most of your points. One rather little remark, you talk about true peak limiters, but then show regular peak limiters. Also to my knowledge the X32 limiter is just a usual peak limiter and no true peak limiter. Having worked on two commercial true peak limiter plugins I know that there is some computational overhead needed to compute true peaks which is why simple on board console limiters usually don’t do true peak limiting. I personally like the sonible smart:limit as true peak limiter for live stream sound, which also has a nice metering section right away, so a nice two in one tool, but I might be a bit biased 😉
Thanks for weighing in here and for the fact checks. Yes, you're absolutely right that the X32 limiter does not detect inter-sample peaks. That's my bad! However, you can turn on ISP in the LoudMax plugin for an additional 6 samples of latency. I'll definitely have to check out the smart:limit plugin : ) Two-in ones are always a plus.
Slightly off topic but i see you mensioned you use a PM7 - Whats your take on DANSE? Was running a pm7 for a year on a show and I really fell in love with the sound of the console andn its variou plus, especisally DANSE though which made my 15 open lavs on a big echoey echo-chamber stage sound like a single talent in a high budget VO booth with unobtanium gear, danse + automix was truly, truly impressive.
I just realized that when I don’t design and mix a musical, I don’t need a digital desk. I’m currently building out a rig with Waves and Vst on inserts with a Soundcraft analog desk for small festival and one nighters. It should be a fun project. Sucks a little that I’m having to track down some graphic Eqs, but there are some bargains out there on things I couldn’t afford 25 years ago!
I've been using Apple MainStage for almost 17 years (since the first release) with the first Apogee Duet (back then) to use virtual amps and effects for my guitar as I used to do gigs in big hotels and restaurants in France. For those who don't know MainStage has its stock plugins and vst instruments, and can host 3party plugins of course. It also has a full virtual mixer console, etc... Since then first release, Apple MainStage has evolved and now I'm using it with my trio where I'm performing with my son (bass) and daughter (lead vocal). I use a Mac mini to host MainStage which processes the vocal mics, the bass guitar (amps and fx), my own guitar (amps and fx), and since my guitar is equipped with a MIDI system, I also use MainStage to play virtual instruments with my guitar. But there's more... I made boxes like Cajons that I play with my feet, and those boxes trigger MainStage that provides the sounds so I can play drums with my feet. And all of this at the same time, in real time (guitar + V.I.'s + complete drums + background vocals). You can see and hear my trio in this video recorded live in one take with a 16 inputs audio interface (Presonus RM16ai) for the sound, and 2 iPhones for the video: ruclips.net/video/e5tLqq5OXn8/видео.html
This is really cool. You all sound great. How does the latency on live vocals not drive you crazy? And is that a phone stuck on the guitar? (I've always wondered why there are only super expensive solutions to simply get audio in and back out of a computer quickly.)
@@DanMcDermott Thanks! The latency on live vocals is fine. In fact my old audio interface (the Presonus RM16ai) is also a digital rackmount mixer with 16 inputs (hence RM16ai), and I have already some treatments that I can get from it on each channel like the classic Gates, parametric EQ, Comps, Limiter, Reverbs, Delays, etc... so I use some very little extra treatments in MainStage for the vocals like some Waves plugins that are really low-latency for live performances. The phone that I have on my guitar has a little app that I use live on the fly to change patches (that are in MainStage) for my guitar sounds and for the virtual instruments also in MainStage (strings, horns, organ, etc...) that I play with my guitar thanks to the wireless MIDI system set on it (you can see it in the video). I also change patches for my DIY FeetDrums (also in MainStage) to change the drum kits, from jazz kits with brushes to funk drums or cajons, etc... I control everything live in real time from that app and it's easier for me that way. Fortunately I don't have to change drum kits in the middle of a song, but all the other things depending on the part of the song (intro, pre-chorus, chorus, bridge, etc...).
@@DenisLogicCertified That’s interesting! I’m surprised you have low enough latency for live vocals. Note, I’m thinking of something like a compressor or auto tune or leveling effect where it would make a round trip before you heard it-not something like a reverb or delay that would complement and run parallel to the original signal.
Its really amazing. The shit I can do, on a live show, from a laptop with dante, is ASTONISHING and I always implement whenever possible. uses for me: 'automix' aka dugan., Waves clarity VX de-reverb in realtime for room tone (demolishes cedar and alll the rest for pennies on the dollar.. 30 bucks vs 8000 for cedar :) and significantly better. Mastering funtions (does yamaha not have a real peak limiter?thats news to me!)And of course your 'creamy' chains for polished VOs etc. Finally, need a realtime 'robot' or voice modulated voice effect for live comedy sketch, badda bing. i love it, I have never had an on air failure on my rig, but you better believe ive got a instant failover stategy if I ever get a crash. Truly an exciting time in live realtime audio DSP and with the way things are going with AI we've only scratched the surface. for me the gains in quallity warrent the risk and addl complexity.. though I suppose I will gauge that on a production by production basis :)
For years I have wished I could add a little more "something" to things in my mixes with things like Live Professor. There are really two reasons I haven't even tried it: 1) if it breaks or crashes, and I am dependent on that effect I don't need something else to fix. And 2) latency. I work with a vocalist who can feel it when I had a 10ms delay on his mic to mitigate feedback. It's just not worth it to me. But part of me still says "Oh, wouldn't it be so cool if..."
@@Zamsky39 I wouldn’t. But this one likes to be in front of the mains. And that isn’t negotiable. lol. And he’s been doing his thing longer than I’ve been alive.
We use waves for vocals, just some compressors and pitch correction. We feed 2 channels for each vocal, so one can be sent to in-ears and the other going through waves. That way if something crashes we can bring the non processed vocals up and no one would notice.
Oh. My. Word. There it is in the manual. Plain as day. I've been using those desks for 10 years and have missed it. I redact my statement and can't wait to use it on my next gig. Thank you for the pro tip!
Great video once again man! Do you have any experience using Fab Filter plugins on your show? I feel like the Pro-Q3 would come in clutch because of all of the bands you can set, and the fact that its a dynamic EQ as well. I also love the Pro-L has well
What’s the difference between Izotope Tonal Balance with the modern curve versus loading the Modern as a Target Curve (for the spectrum view) of Smaart? I can’t see why one would need a plugin if you can do it with your Smaart rig RTA & spectrograph display for live.
I think I found the answer to this. If I use the Target Curve in Smaart it contains an absolute SPL value at each frequency, and the measured frequency needs to be at that level fit with the curve. Whereas you've said elsewhere that Tonal Balance Control uses relative levels. I expect that means that it automatically scales the measured signal to match with the curve boundaries - so one less thing to manage!
I can see this being the case for larger productions, but dare I say the vast majority of us mixing monitors and FOH from the same console, even with Gig Performer and Live Professor, the latency issue is still too substantial. For my small rig, I REALLY wanted to incorporate Waves Xfdbk into my monitor mixes via M32C usb and a host, but the latency is too much. Ive currently resorted to using an Apollo 8 to run my mics into Luna hosting Xfdbk and back out again, and that has worked, but its more than Id like to do, and certainly can't do it when I'm running sound for a random band night. Until we see the lower range consoles with something faster than usb as standard, I can't say the revolution has happened yet.
That's why I focused on time based effects here to eliminate the latency issue. If your vocal reverb or delay arrives even 10ms late, no harm no foul. I totally agree with you that most acts still have FOH mixing monitors, which makes most in-line VST use untenable unless you've got a monster computer that can process at incredibly low buffer sizes paired with a rock solid audio driver (RME) and a low latency interface on the desk. Even then things are tough.
yes, anytime you leave the console, digital or analog, it introduces latency. There is no way around this. unless you go analog into analog outboard gear. I use smaart to verify my Dlive is in time at the outputs. Dlive doesn't have delay compensation so i have to manually do it. but it's fun to find what plugins cause havoc. Dlive has latency in the dyne8. I don't know why. Just the way they do it. and the x-m32's if you use the effect rack it causes latency. so just stuff like that.
yes. My inputs all route to superrack regardless of processing just to keep the paths the same. I have three different stages. Input, groups, and band buss. my vocal group doesn't go to superrack and is delayed to the band group. SG has a great delay groups section that i utilize. again band, groups, band bus. I check the iem outputs too, to make sure i didn't miss anything going to their ears. But SG's latency group is a life saver. other then wavestune adds 70 samples on vs off. and the c6 still has that phase rap the Scovill sniffed out in one of his videos. yes I tried to figure it out. so i don't use the c6. My main gig is a church but i do side gigs with local guys mainly m32's and ls9's so it's onboard.
Could you respond with the workflow on how you managed to use the WT auto mix on the M32...All auto mix I know of need/use postfade insert point, and the only place you can pick the card up on the M32 is right off the pre-amp and it comes right back in before hitting any dynamics. Maybe I have a bad understanding of the pick off place. Just trying to see how I could use that to help me out in those situations. Thanks!
DL32 Analog Inputs --> AES50A --> M32 Card Outputs Over USB --> GigPerformer --> WTAutomix plugin on each of the 8 additional channels --> Summed back to a mono USB output --> Channel 17 on the M32 --> Stereo Bus
You really dont need at console! I setup a avb system into a mac mini m1 with Reaper at 4ms using SSL uf8 uc1 360 Its Great! this way I can add inputs and outputs as needed
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Yeah. Maybe blue or something. That shade of green is like 1970s green. Unless you like the color. And your going for that look. I had trouble listening. Because I was trying to figure all that out. 😏
Excellent video!
We run Waves SuperRack Performer on a NUC alongside a Wing for our mobile church plant to enhance the vocals.
My philosophy is to start simple with the basics. Gain structure, compressor, EQ, etc. Get an excellent mix first. In my opinion, the plugins are fancy icing. They add an extra touch that's nice to have, but not required.
For redundancy, we use the Wing's built in main/alt input selection. If Waves were to fail, one button push and we're back to direct stage inputs.
Very cool setup! Yes, you guys have obviously weighed the tradeoffs in this type of system and built in the appropriate redundancies. Great job.
Some plugins are game changers though. For example, when I put Waves SSL v2 on a vocal or acoustic guitar, things start just shining and it’s very easy to get them sound right with very few tweaks
Sometimes I wonder if things have gotten more complicated than they need to be.
Dude i love your videos. such reasonable information and top quality production. really a bliss to watch
Very kind words! Thank you so much.
Funny that you referenced the Amish. I do a big two day event for a nearby Amish community. Several stages running at same time and parade sound. Great people to work with.
The one plugin I don't wanna mix live without anymore is the Waves PSE. At least when it comes to your typical rock/metal show in a way too small location. Haven't found a better way to prevent vocal mics from turning into shitty sounding drum overheads. 😅
(I know some consoles have a PSE built in, but the sidechain ducking function of the Waves PSE makes it just so much more powerful.....)
Good video! Audiogridder did this years ago. I've used it to distribute processing to different computers at home. I've used it live too.
I recently purchased Super Rack Performer and am trying to integrate it with my setup. Thanks for the analysis and wisdom.
Let me know how it goes!
Waves just announced a new server compatible with any VST! What a timing haha
This was sheer coincidence! Very funny timing : )
Being a professional plugin software developer and part time live sound engineer I really appreciate most of your points. One rather little remark, you talk about true peak limiters, but then show regular peak limiters. Also to my knowledge the X32 limiter is just a usual peak limiter and no true peak limiter. Having worked on two commercial true peak limiter plugins I know that there is some computational overhead needed to compute true peaks which is why simple on board console limiters usually don’t do true peak limiting.
I personally like the sonible smart:limit as true peak limiter for live stream sound, which also has a nice metering section right away, so a nice two in one tool, but I might be a bit biased 😉
Thanks for weighing in here and for the fact checks.
Yes, you're absolutely right that the X32 limiter does not detect inter-sample peaks. That's my bad! However, you can turn on ISP in the LoudMax plugin for an additional 6 samples of latency.
I'll definitely have to check out the smart:limit plugin : ) Two-in ones are always a plus.
Slightly off topic but i see you mensioned you use a PM7 - Whats your take on DANSE? Was running a pm7 for a year on a show and I really fell in love with the sound of the console andn its variou plus, especisally DANSE though which made my 15 open lavs on a big echoey echo-chamber stage sound like a single talent in a high budget VO booth with unobtanium gear, danse + automix was truly, truly impressive.
I just realized that when I don’t design and mix a musical, I don’t need a digital desk. I’m currently building out a rig with Waves and Vst on inserts with a Soundcraft analog desk for small festival and one nighters. It should be a fun project. Sucks a little that I’m having to track down some graphic Eqs, but there are some bargains out there on things I couldn’t afford 25 years ago!
I've been using Apple MainStage for almost 17 years (since the first release) with the first Apogee Duet (back then) to use virtual amps and effects for my guitar as I used to do gigs in big hotels and restaurants in France.
For those who don't know MainStage has its stock plugins and vst instruments, and can host 3party plugins of course.
It also has a full virtual mixer console, etc...
Since then first release, Apple MainStage has evolved and now I'm using it with my trio where I'm performing with my son (bass) and daughter (lead vocal).
I use a Mac mini to host MainStage which processes the vocal mics, the bass guitar (amps and fx), my own guitar (amps and fx), and since my guitar is equipped with a MIDI system, I also use MainStage to play virtual instruments with my guitar.
But there's more... I made boxes like Cajons that I play with my feet, and those boxes trigger MainStage that provides the sounds so I can play drums with my feet.
And all of this at the same time, in real time (guitar + V.I.'s + complete drums + background vocals).
You can see and hear my trio in this video recorded live in one take with a 16 inputs audio interface (Presonus RM16ai) for the sound, and 2 iPhones for the video:
ruclips.net/video/e5tLqq5OXn8/видео.html
This is really cool. You all sound great. How does the latency on live vocals not drive you crazy? And is that a phone stuck on the guitar? (I've always wondered why there are only super expensive solutions to simply get audio in and back out of a computer quickly.)
@@DanMcDermott Thanks!
The latency on live vocals is fine. In fact my old audio interface (the Presonus RM16ai) is also a digital rackmount mixer with 16 inputs (hence RM16ai), and I have already some treatments that I can get from it on each channel like the classic Gates, parametric EQ, Comps, Limiter, Reverbs, Delays, etc... so I use some very little extra treatments in MainStage for the vocals like some Waves plugins that are really low-latency for live performances.
The phone that I have on my guitar has a little app that I use live on the fly to change patches (that are in MainStage) for my guitar sounds and for the virtual instruments also in MainStage (strings, horns, organ, etc...) that I play with my guitar thanks to the wireless MIDI system set on it (you can see it in the video).
I also change patches for my DIY FeetDrums (also in MainStage) to change the drum kits, from jazz kits with brushes to funk drums or cajons, etc...
I control everything live in real time from that app and it's easier for me that way.
Fortunately I don't have to change drum kits in the middle of a song, but all the other things depending on the part of the song (intro, pre-chorus, chorus, bridge, etc...).
@@DenisLogicCertified That’s interesting! I’m surprised you have low enough latency for live vocals. Note, I’m thinking of something like a compressor or auto tune or leveling effect where it would make a round trip before you heard it-not something like a reverb or delay that would complement and run parallel to the original signal.
Its really amazing. The shit I can do, on a live show, from a laptop with dante, is ASTONISHING and I always implement whenever possible. uses for me: 'automix' aka dugan., Waves clarity VX de-reverb in realtime for room tone (demolishes cedar and alll the rest for pennies on the dollar.. 30 bucks vs 8000 for cedar :) and significantly better. Mastering funtions (does yamaha not have a real peak limiter?thats news to me!)And of course your 'creamy' chains for polished VOs etc. Finally, need a realtime 'robot' or voice modulated voice effect for live comedy sketch, badda bing. i love it, I have never had an on air failure on my rig, but you better believe ive got a instant failover stategy if I ever get a crash. Truly an exciting time in live realtime audio DSP and with the way things are going with AI we've only scratched the surface. for me the gains in quallity warrent the risk and addl complexity.. though I suppose I will gauge that on a production by production basis :)
The #1 plugin I wish I had for live is dynamic EQ.
For years I have wished I could add a little more "something" to things in my mixes with things like Live Professor. There are really two reasons I haven't even tried it: 1) if it breaks or crashes, and I am dependent on that effect I don't need something else to fix. And 2) latency. I work with a vocalist who can feel it when I had a 10ms delay on his mic to mitigate feedback. It's just not worth it to me.
But part of me still says "Oh, wouldn't it be so cool if..."
Ad. 2 just don't use software inserts on monitors. 10ms is a lot of latency for monitoring.
@@Zamsky39 I wouldn’t. But this one likes to be in front of the mains. And that isn’t negotiable. lol. And he’s been doing his thing longer than I’ve been alive.
We use waves for vocals, just some compressors and pitch correction. We feed 2 channels for each vocal, so one can be sent to in-ears and the other going through waves. That way if something crashes we can bring the non processed vocals up and no one would notice.
Great points Mike,thanks very much for this video
Yamaha QL/CL5 DO HAVE A PEAK LIMITER, it's hidden inside the multiband-dynamics, labeled "CEILING", i use that and bypass the rest of the plugin
Oh. My. Word. There it is in the manual. Plain as day. I've been using those desks for 10 years and have missed it. I redact my statement and can't wait to use it on my next gig. Thank you for the pro tip!
Bertom Denoiser for the win! It's free/pay what you want.
Ohhhh, haven't check that one out yet.
Good video! Thanks Curtis!. Off topic question. Have you ever tried Mixing Station as a mix station? Any comments?
Thanks, as always!
Great video once again man! Do you have any experience using Fab Filter plugins on your show? I feel like the Pro-Q3 would come in clutch because of all of the bands you can set, and the fact that its a dynamic EQ as well. I also love the Pro-L has well
Thanks! I've only had experiece with the Pro-L in a studio context, but it's incredible. A great buddy of mine swears up and down by the Pro-Q3.
Plugins are tools just like the one's included in a desk. Use the tools that make you smile.
What’s the difference between Izotope Tonal Balance with the modern curve versus loading the Modern as a Target Curve (for the spectrum view) of Smaart? I can’t see why one would need a plugin if you can do it with your Smaart rig RTA & spectrograph display for live.
I think I found the answer to this. If I use the Target Curve in Smaart it contains an absolute SPL value at each frequency, and the measured frequency needs to be at that level fit with the curve. Whereas you've said elsewhere that Tonal Balance Control uses relative levels. I expect that means that it automatically scales the measured signal to match with the curve boundaries - so one less thing to manage!
Relying on a laptop is my worry. The hardware solutions look good or a laptop that isn't used on the Internet
I can see this being the case for larger productions, but dare I say the vast majority of us mixing monitors and FOH from the same console, even with Gig Performer and Live Professor, the latency issue is still too substantial.
For my small rig, I REALLY wanted to incorporate Waves Xfdbk into my monitor mixes via M32C usb and a host, but the latency is too much.
Ive currently resorted to using an Apollo 8 to run my mics into Luna hosting Xfdbk and back out again, and that has worked, but its more than Id like to do, and certainly can't do it when I'm running sound for a random band night.
Until we see the lower range consoles with something faster than usb as standard, I can't say the revolution has happened yet.
That's why I focused on time based effects here to eliminate the latency issue. If your vocal reverb or delay arrives even 10ms late, no harm no foul. I totally agree with you that most acts still have FOH mixing monitors, which makes most in-line VST use untenable unless you've got a monster computer that can process at incredibly low buffer sizes paired with a rock solid audio driver (RME) and a low latency interface on the desk. Even then things are tough.
yes, anytime you leave the console, digital or analog, it introduces latency. There is no way around this. unless you go analog into analog outboard gear. I use smaart to verify my Dlive is in time at the outputs. Dlive doesn't have delay compensation so i have to manually do it. but it's fun to find what plugins cause havoc. Dlive has latency in the dyne8. I don't know why. Just the way they do it. and the x-m32's if you use the effect rack it causes latency. so just stuff like that.
Yes, way to use your measurement tools to sniff that stuff. Are you often running FOH and monitors from the same desk?
yes. My inputs all route to superrack regardless of processing just to keep the paths the same. I have three different stages. Input, groups, and band buss. my vocal group doesn't go to superrack and is delayed to the band group. SG has a great delay groups section that i utilize. again band, groups, band bus. I check the iem outputs too, to make sure i didn't miss anything going to their ears. But SG's latency group is a life saver. other then wavestune adds 70 samples on vs off. and the c6 still has that phase rap the Scovill sniffed out in one of his videos. yes I tried to figure it out. so i don't use the c6. My main gig is a church but i do side gigs with local guys mainly m32's and ls9's so it's onboard.
I prefer stock effects, they help achieve results better without distractions
Could you respond with the workflow on how you managed to use the WT auto mix on the M32...All auto mix I know of need/use postfade insert point, and the only place you can pick the card up on the M32 is right off the pre-amp and it comes right back in before hitting any dynamics. Maybe I have a bad understanding of the pick off place. Just trying to see how I could use that to help me out in those situations. Thanks!
DL32 Analog Inputs --> AES50A --> M32 Card Outputs Over USB --> GigPerformer --> WTAutomix plugin on each of the 8 additional channels --> Summed back to a mono USB output --> Channel 17 on the M32 --> Stereo Bus
You really dont need at console! I setup a avb system into a mac mini m1 with Reaper at 4ms using SSL uf8 uc1 360 Its Great! this way I can add inputs and outputs as needed
The green is distracting me.
👍 topic.
The green walls?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Yeah. Maybe blue or something. That shade of green is like 1970s green. Unless you like the color. And your going for that look. I had trouble listening. Because I was trying to figure all that out. 😏
Ко речи? Напоследък има много словесни салати като тази.