Brunel's Greatest Rival and The Box Tunnel
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- It turns out Brunel had a few enemies who would routinely question his schemes, their economics and their basis. Dionysius Lardner was one of them.
In this weeks video we take a look at Brunel and three of his Schemes including the Box Tunnel, The SS Great Western and Broad Guage!
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Credit and thanks as follows
Box Tunnel Photos: Derek Hawkins
Dionysius Lardner: Edith Fortunee Tita De Lisle
North Star Pics: Geoff Sheppard
Steamer: World Imaging 
Развлечения
Thank you, Paul and your glamorous assistant for another perfect ten minutes away from this pandemic. Enjoyed watching your attempt to create the London to Bristol mainline. Stay safe and well, you two!👍🏼
Thanks for the engaging style and the work that went into the video. As a retired lecturer from Dionysius Lardner's alma mater, Trinity College Dublin, I've always had a quiet liking for that man's mixture of Irish brilliance and eccentricity. Also, as his biography shows, he was quite a lad.
At risk of sounding as pedantic as he, I mention that standard gauge is not 4ft 8ins as mentioned in the video and in some comments. It is 4ft 8½ins. I'm sure Brunel would want such precision.
Cheers, and keep healthy - preferably by doing things like this video to enrich the lives of others during these times.
Thanks Martin, when researching we did get a picture of two very different characters. A shame that his later work wasn't recognised for its worth. Thanks for commenting.
@@pwhitewick "A shame that his later work wasn't recognised for its worth." Indeed! Thanks.
Brunel's guage was originally 7' which he later expanded to 7' 1/4" as mentioned in the video. Stephenson started with 4' 8” , which Paul said, but later increased it to 4' 8 1/2" which we now know as standard guage.
Another, but different and interesting video Paul and Rebecca.
Brunel was a brilliant engineer, he could turn his hand to most things.
Many early engineers made mistakes, even the Stevenson family.
Their bridge over the River Dee at Chester collapsed, but they are known as the fathers of railways.
Yet, Sir Thomas Bouch was a great engineer, but after the Tay Bridge Disaster, his name was mud! He built many bridges that didn't collapse, the Belah viaduct was amazing!
The Victorian engineers were building things that had never been tried before, so a few mistakes were made.
Thanks guys for that fascinating video. Given that IKB's birthday was 09 April, this was a timely and wonderful tribute to his immense talent. Keep well and stay safe. Cheers, Pete A :) :) :)
That's a very good point. No specific intention on our part as such
@@pwhitewick I rather hope the sun did shine through Box Tunnel as it rose on the 9th; it was a beautiful, sunny day!!
A very simple bit of physics. 120 mph is 53.6 metres per second. That means every Kg of train has 1,436 Joules of kinetic energy. The drop over the length of the tunnel is 29.5 metres, which means there is 290 Joules of potential energy going begging. So that would mean that each Kg of train would have had to have 1,146 Joules of kinetic energy on entry to the tunnel. That means the train would have had to be travelling at 47.9 metres per second on entry, or 107 mph.
So, neglecting air resistance, the train would already have to be travelling at 107 mph before it entered the tunnel, and that's without considering air resistance at all. I'm pretty sure that, speedy as they might be, those broad gauge trains weren't travelling at 107 mph.
Of course, there may have been a lot longer length of track at 1:100 than Box Hill alone. However, to be travelling at 53.6 metres per second from requires a descent of 146.4 metres, which means a track length of 14.6 km. Of course, that's cheating a bit as that's from a dead stop, not the normal speed of a train. However, as the kinetic energy goes up to the square of velocity, then the kinetic energy gain is non-linear with speed and this misses out the critical factor or air resistance.
In any event, as LTC Rolt mentions in his biography, Brunel won this particular argument.
IKB was a genuis, But let us not forget his dad. Marc Brunel: Inventor of the block pulley making machine. Digger of the First tunnel under the Thames( still in use today).
That same tunnel was the one that IKB nearly died in as well. A few years ago when the East London line was being converted into the Overground they had an open day and you could walk through it again. I was gutted to miss it.
I still haven't visited the Brunel museum, walked past it many times and ran past it three times (London Marathon)
@@hairyairey I've been through the Thames Tunnel to Rotherhithe just for the experience. I wouldn't bother with the museum though. Overpriced and understocked.
brunels dad poor bugger ended up in now defunct debtors jail in portsmouth for busness debts for a period
Say what you will about Brunel and his idiosyncracies, you've got to love a man in a BIG hat.
Come to think of it I guess I should have worn one for the occasion!
@@pwhitewick and the big fat cigar!
@Lydia Belyakova ?
Even if he was a very clever 'smartarse'!!
That picture of him in front of those massive chains is brilliant for sure.
Finally caught up on the videos over the last few episodes. Sorry about that. Like the diversification in topics under lockdown. Keep it up.
Thank you, and welcome back.
Brunel could demonstrate a sharp tongue back in his day, like calling Stephenson's gauge the "coal waggon gauge."
Indeed like many "great men" of the time.
It's obvious Brunel hadn't heard of narrow gauge... 😂 😥 😮
Jacques Blaque: Perhaps because it is a coal cart gauge.
I so enjoy you two. Merry Christmas.
Back in the 1970s with my Institute of Highway & Traffic Engineers society (Devon Branch) we visited Brunel's tubular railway bridge in Plymouth over the River Tamar. We walked over the top of the bridge hanging on to a fixed handrail - then climbed down and came back through the inside of the structure - at the centre point there was a "Visitor's Book" which we all signed along with past VIPs. I'm currently looking for some photos I took of this memorable occasion!
Ah good memories. And rather you than me! Not one for heights
If Brunel's broad gauge had won against the current accepted standard gauge, we'd have had a much more efficient train network, with comfy wide seats in the carriages.
You’re confusing track gauge with loading gauge. Most European railways have bigger, wider, trains but still run on the same tracks. And look at the size of some US trains, again on the same track gauge. Of course, Brunel built to a wider loading gauge too, but that’s not what we’re talking about here
@@hoagy_ytfc and Japan's loading gauge is wider than ours. Amazing to see how wide their trains are on "standard" gauge. That said, broad gauge has served India well.
Twice as many tunnel miners would die!
@@tpobrienjr Twice? it's not that much wider!
@@hairyairey Japan's gauge is 1067mm (cape gauge) while some high speed lines are 1435mm (standard gauge).
Fascinating! You two certainly kept me entertained. Can't wait for the next one.
Thanks Michael glad you enjoyed it.
Great video guys - your works are really well researched and orchestrated and always a pleasure to watch 👍🏻
Simply love you two wonderful people. I have been watching your stuff for a while now without subscribing but have made amends. I live in Ireland and cycle everywhere. Where I live there are a lot of disused railway structures and you have given me the stimulation to go and cycle them out. Again love all your videos and how you two lovely people present them. Big fan here in Ireland.
Thanks Philip, very kind.
I am pretty sure Brunel was closely involved in the Floating Harbour in Bristol. One of its secrets was a huge set of sluice gates that were periodically opened to flush out the silts under the surface of the Floating Harbour. Perhaps they still are??? I think they vent into a relief channel.
Get digging for us Robin... sounds like a worthy video!!
I’m not sure if I’m more impressed by your science or the vast collection of trains 😂
Very interesting. Enjoying the additional format.
Thanks Harry, much appreciated.
Fascinating, thank you! And I like the fun style too - good teamwork :) WB
Thank you, trying to keep thing mixed up a little!
Thanks guys nice one for making the effort!
Our pleasure!
Brunel, THE man that put the great in Great Britain. Another cracking video, thank you both.
Thanks 👍
That sure was a great video! Can't wait for next Wed. Thank you.
Great research and cleverly presented. I really enjoyed this. thankyou
Cheers Keith. Our pleasure as always.
Good stuff, enjoyable & informative - thanks!
Brilliant as ever. Wrote one of my A level papers on Brunel and his broad gauge. One of the conclusions being that the extra stability that the broad gauge gave would have meant that the HSTs would have been faster
Even taking into consideration extra wind resistance?
@@pwhitewick It was all hypothesis without sophisticated mathmatical equations. I think that was countered by the fact that the engine would be bigger (ok more weight) but it got me an A grade -:). Keep the videos coming
The limiting factor for HST was not the track. They could have done 140mph if the signalling had been in place. Which 40 years later it still isn't.
Another fine tale, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Another great video, presented in a positive, entertaining way for these challenging times. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you.👍
Glad you enjoyed it!
Rumour has it that before building Box tunnel Brunel visited Tyler Hill tunnel in Canterbury, on Stephenson's Canterbury to Whitstable railway, to see how a tunnel on a gradient was built.
Love your stay at home videos!!
Brunel was a fantastic engineer, great speaker and self publicist. His financial credibility was minimal and many people regretted the day they got involved. He left great legacy which out weighs the negative history.
Evil.... Or genuis
@@pwhitewick like most folks a bit of both.
only just started watching......when i was 14 i was at a special school in Bath and we had Outdoor Pursuits 2 full afternoons a week. Our OP teacher was a guy called Charlie who'd been a tank commander in the 70's and he would take us down Box stone mines regularly and we would map them out...it was his little obsession...as well as trying to find a way in to the legendary military supply depot that's supposed to be still down there, complete with vehicles and equipment left over from the second world war. We would occasionally use what was called "The Cathedral", a brick lined hole in some old lady's back garden and we used to abseil down there....about 20 feet down the brick lined shaft opened up like a funnel and you could let go of the rope and free abseil for about 200 feet before you hit the ground! (It was called the cathedral because when you stood on the floor and looked up it looked like.........a cathedral! lol.........right gonna actually watch the video...best wishes and take care
Thanks for sharing Jimmy
@@pwhitewick hey thanks for being real!
@@jimmyviaductophilelawley5587 that sounds really interesting and would love to go there myself.
Many thanks for sharing your wonderfull memories.
🙂🍻👍🏻
I visited the "Cathedral" in the 1960's too, but walked in through the workings the long way. The entrance we used was near the Quarrymans Arms.
@@johnmanchip4414 the one we used was a really hard squeeze I don't know where it was the cathedral was only done twice by me but what a ride! And what a view from the floor! No mobile phones in those days!
Great vid - very interesting! fair play to that Nils guy - knows his stuff!
He does indeed
Practical experimentation, gotta love it!!!!! Great stuff!!!
I guessed that was a toy box beside you!!. Excellent video again keep em coming. And STAY SAFE!!
Tip of the Toy Box Iceberg.... Stay tuned.
@@pwhitewick OMG!
On my gosh, when she quibbles with you did the quiet little "broad gauge" I laughed so hard I nearly fell out of the chair. Well done, as always!
😁
Great stuff, really enjoyed it.
Cheers Carl.
When I was a driver in England I found Box tunnel a very spooky place. Statistical wise I seem to remember you had a better chance of surviving the western front than surviving building the tunnel, could be wrong 🍺🇳🇿
I doubt you are wrong!... Some of the stats from the likes of Queensbury tunnel are truly shocking.
Walking through the sloped section of box mine that passes over the top of it is a pretty weird experience. You can feel the trains going through but can't hear them.
@@reddoor6114
The
Reddoor is indeed at Box tunnel 🛑
I learn something new about the UK in every vid on this channel
Plenty more planned, stayed tuned.
Enjoyed that thank you
Glad you enjoyed it
There are other factors in the gradient issue. In the old days, there was plenty of friction in the axle boxes. Now we have roller bearings. As a train driver I know there is a big difference. I often drive trains on gradients from a stop and not apply power and still need to stop speeding. With old axle boxes, this would less likely be the case.
Very interesting Paul, never heard of the bloke before so quite enlightening. Rebecca was rather amusing as well. Keep it up , all the best
Thanks Stephen, until a few weeks back we hadn't either!
Excellent! puts a different take on IKB and I thought I had seen it all with all the documentaries there have been. Looking forward to the next one Oh the suspense...
To be fair in researching this I feel we have enough info for a video on why Brunel was the greatest!... another day.
Brunel: Absolute genius...
Thanks for posting. What an awesome story. 👍🇦🇺
Glad you enjoyed it
I absolutely loved this ! Cheers from California
Thanks both. :)
Cool! Nice wooden train collection :-)
Tip of the iceberg Glenn.
@@pwhitewick Well there's a RUclips post in the making ;-)
Well I really enjoyed that, thanks so much. Do stay safe
Thanks, you too!
Excellent! puts a different take on IKB , A engaging style and the work that went into the video.well done
Thanks Paul, appreciated
Very interesting! I'd never heard of Lardner before.
Me neither before researching this!
The world we live in would be very different today were it not, indirectly perhaps, for Dionysius Lardner. He gave a young bookbinder a job at the Royal Society; that young bookbinder was one Michael Faraday.
Some interesting stuff with an amusing presentation. Loved it, my vote stayed with Brunel. 👍👍😎🎩
I think my vote probably would too, but its certainly worth considering the others that came before him.... now that could be a video in its own right!
Hi Paul and Rebecca I really look forward to your video's 🤜🏻🤛🏻
As your are one of my favourites I subscribe to.
Keep up the great work you pair
🙂🍻🥂👍🏻
Awesome! Thank you!
hey paul and rebecca , another great interesting and at times funny video lol , :)
Thanks Davie. We try
Grand stuff again, and you ain't letting some pesky lockdown stopping you making some interesting videos.
Thanks Nigel we are certainly trying.
Thank you this is a fascinating video. Earleir today I was walking our dog and I was trying to remmember who had mis calculated the speed of a train in Box Hill tunnel.
Now there is a coincidence! Glad to have helped.
Brilliant !!!!!! I broad gauge would have helped with social distancing.
And the Channel Tunnel with direct trains from London to Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam would have never been viable as continental gauge is 4ft 8 ins as it is throughout the U.K.
@@briane5706 But if the UK had standardised on the broad gauge from the beginning, wouldn't other nations have followed suit? (As they did with standard gauge - were you aware for example that many early French Railways were built by British engineers?)
@@briane5706 But they could have adopted the superior guage if it had been the dominant one in Britain.
@@briane5706 lmao we invented trains
@@duolingoowl7043
Interesting hypothesis. Brunel didn’t get everything his own way and on the gauge is an example. Imagine the comfort in carriages of a 7’ broad gauge railway, especially sleeper carriages.
Brunel : widely respected (despite his flaws) and an engineering genius of almost mythological proportions.
Lardener: Who??
Says it all really...
That was great! :D Love the Flying Scotsman reference since I got to see it. Here in the States. In the 60's... yeah, I'm old. ;)
Feeling inspired, and having a lot of time on my hands, I scanned the photos my father took in 1970 when the the train passed by and put them together in a slide show. ruclips.net/video/J8P_DUoXKZU/видео.html
You need to visit Box tunnel, especially the east portal that has 2 entrances, the 2nd one being to the underground station and siding.
While IKB was perhaps not the "gentleman" many people think, his engineering legacy is immense. While the broad gauge issue has, pretty much, been settled, it's interesting to imagine how different a broad gauge network would be today. Remember, of course, that if the UK *had* opted for broad gauge, the decision would have changed railway history *worldwide* and not just here. While many of Brunel's contemporaries made major contributions and helped to shape the future, few have a legacy as near-perfect as the London - Bristol "billiard table" which is still in everyday use in the 21st century.
And, far more importantly, IK had the biggest *HAT* 🎩
Cheers for now,
Dougie.
The Hat counts for sure.
Big love for Rebecca's Brunel scepticism here 👍
(Of course, challenge mode is that tests of aerodynamics is that even with models you have to do things at full speed because air speed is independent of scale! So you'd need to get your BRIO to 120mph!)
Lardner reminds me of people who get bogged down in technical detail when trying to debunk Hyperloop, rather than looking at the bigger picture.
Ooooh much more on that Scepticism in future videos! 120mph Brio.... hold my Beer.
IKB - built the West country transport system pretty much single handedly.
Built? No, designed yes. Didn't mind too much when navvies died on the job, but yes, he remains my #1 hero of the Industrial Age...
Babbage's cowcatcher made all the difference!
Interesting video thanks Paul. Just as a point of interest, before going ahead with the Box tunnel construction, Brunel visited Tyler Hill tunnel near Canterbury, (and my house), designed by George Stephenson, to test and prove that the trains would be safe working on the gradient. Construction of the majority of Box Tunnel was let to George Burge, a pioneering building contractor from Herne Bay. www.kentrail.org.uk/tyler_hill_tunnel.htm
Thats great Peter, thanks for sharing.
Is this the same guy that wrote the almanack? I vaguely recall an article titled Old Dionysius's Almanack in an Ian Allan annual from 1968/9 interesting blog keep up the good work and stay safe. 🙂
Thanks Brian, I think it may well be.
👏👏❤️😁Nice one x
Thank you 😁
Interesting story. If you have time to spare these days, maybe you could set up a track and use the toy trains to make a stop motion video of some sort. It could be a retelling of a famous train accident, or some other train related event. Or maybe a little history lesson about the development of railroads/locomotives using stop motion filming of the toy trains going by. One of the other channels I watch is called Engel's coach shop and he made a fun stop motion video of a brush and toy trucks cleaning up sawdust from the shop floor. You might like to watch a few of his videos as they are about old stuff. Cheers!
Funny you should mention that! We have a lot of track!... a heck of a lot. So perhaps Britains Railways Mapped... might be a thing very soon!
Additionally, look out for something coming soon on the old Barry railway....once it's safe to venture out of any consequence, I'm planning photographics & a video to this effect with some of those interesting features I mentioned to you in previous comments. Won't be too long hopefully, in which case you're not necessarily so far from your next invariably enjoyable costa coffee !
We shall look forward to it. I'm easy, Costa, Starbucks... all works for me!
Isn't it 4ft 8.5 inches. But what's half an inch between friends
Nils ... rhymes with pills ... Niles ... rhymes with miles.
Very entertaining, thank you. Although Rebecca really should get those two holes in her jumper fixed........!
From what I understood, it used to have shoulder pads but they got left in the 80s...
Perhaps they are for cooling.
Not long before this time it was widely believed that a person couldn't travel faster than about 30 mph without being asphyxiated due to air pressure or something.
Lardner “The Denigrated Sage of Early Railways” is the title of a paper given by Andrew Odlyzka at the 2018 “Early Main Line Railways conference in York. Andrew argues that whilst Lardner did make his mistakes, particularly about Atlantic steam ships he was remarkably accurate in other areas. In particular about railway technology, construction, passenger and revenue estimates. His 1846 paper in the Edinburgh Review “Railways at home and abroad” was remarkably accurate and comprehensive and he was also a strong advocate of more centralised control over the manic growth of railways in the 1840s although his warnings about the investment risk were not particularly clear. So not all bad although Rolt was a strong critic. Lardner is a fascinating subject and I think on balance unfairly tarred by his coming together with Brunel.
Great vid. Like Rebecca's sweater.
Er uh jumper?
I’m very fortunate to have walked through the Box tunnel end to end, legally to 😂
Great story telling. You need to diminish the amount of friction in your experiment... hot wheels track with the loco on that probably would have swung it, but great fun all the same. :D
Yup. Wooden track and plastic wheels didn't help!
I see where Rebecca is coming from about Brunel, but his personal flaws do not detract from his engineering ability. If we measure greatness by perfection then there's only one person who would pass that test, and it's definitely not me!
......and to be fair to Rebecca... I wrote the script. 🤪
@@pwhitewick it does of course cast doubt on his title of "Greatest Briton" as he was once voted. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Greatest_Britons - that's funny I was sure he won it!
The trouble with any of this we must know the speed entering the tunnel and then the speed down the gradient. Because all his calculations have worked out OK 👍🏻
True of course, I think Nils calculation assumed an infinite piece of track!
does anyone know has there beeen any other time othsr than this five week period that our national.rail.network has been so limited apart from during its creation 180 years ago or so
I doubt very much so, I hazard a guess at the war periods, but even then they had significant uses.
@@pwhitewick its about 10 percent of normal surely it was more than that during the both wars and with lower population 1963 and 1947 were bad for raiways for many weeks im suee this peeiod wheneved it ends will be the least u sed.period. snce 1850 s when the first 6000 miles or so was built
Take care both
I was hoping this might be about the SSR...;-)
Wonder if there was days when Brunel wanted to punch Dionysius Lardner in the face? But to be fair he kind of did when he proved Dionysius Lardner wrong. it was a great video, love the banter back and forth, such a fan of Brunel and Rebecca... get out LOL (that did really make me laugh to be honest)
The preeminent railway engineer of the C19th was Robert Stevenson. Brunel was nowhere in comparison.
Tend to agree.
do you know what its a difficult call which is is the most delightfull railway wag vicky or rebecca ive decided they both are, i read a book that stated when brunel broad track track trains dsrailed they just came off tracks and did not fall over and traveled down emnbankments intoo fields like the titfield thunderbolt
Broad gauge gave better stability and faster running times only problem was the cost of the land.
With that number of Brio trains I think you could be your own TOC! I propose PRB trains...
@ 7:11 - Standard gauge is 4 foot 8 and a half inches - not 4'8".
Broad gauge gave hard ride and restricted curve radii
@ 0.51, "YOU'RE BARRED!" lol. was it john smiths beer?
Lol.
This reminds me of early beliefs about the practicality of the parachute. There were those whose claimed that anyone falling through the air would be unable to breathe because the air would effectively be rushing past the person's face so fast so quickly that they wouldn't be able to breathe it in. They would therefore die of asphyxiation. Turned out to be nonsense of course but Lardneresque nonsense.
Yup, a clever chap by all accounts so why he would make such a mistake (or three) here is still a confusion to us
Is true that the sun rise on the anniversary brunals birthday shines right through box tunnel
I thought Network rail took a look a few years ago and found it was at least a week out
@@pwhitewick that's correct, he was a few days out on the alignment. It is still an impressive sight though.
@@hairyairey sisters birthday maybe ?
Recommended viewing ( and part 4 ) - ruclips.net/video/FgbiARGvFvg/видео.html
I remember it well.
@@pwhitewick The trackbed of the tunnel has been lowered for electrification, also the pumps from the military next door output into the tunnel and on full blast wash the ballast out !
Is that your own personal Brio collection :D? I think I played with my kids set more than they did...
Definitely the kids!
Loved this video. I did not know that Brunel was such a d**k in his views on education, he is still my hero though. Never ever heard of Dionysius Lardner until you mentioned him, another flawed but interesting person.
Surely 4 foot eight and a half inches!
Nice video, love IKB.
I think Nils is pronounced “Neals”, as he is German.
Ah yes, I thought I may have blundered that!
Never mind. We, from the continent, struggle with some English words.
I like Brunnel.
WOT!!!! No Thomas the Tank Engine? Scandalous!! ;)
WATCH..... THIS..... SPACE.
Interesting video today 🤔. Whatever Lardner says about Brunel, he looks just the part wearing his tall hat and massive chains behind him ⛓ 👨 ⛓
I wonder why Lardner wanted to prove him wrong, money perhaps?
Stay safe, GWR
Every possibility there was money involved. However think Lardner was in it just to make a name for himself.