Gettysburg Wargame at Lee’s Headquarters
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- In partnership with @LittleWarsTV the American Battlefield Trust revisited the greatest battle in American history to see if Robert E Lee could avoid making the same mistakes. Played inside the historic "Lee Headquarters" building at Gettysburg, a team of wargaming pros From Little Wars TV matched wits against a team of professional historians from the American Battlefield Trust to refight the entire three day battle on a custom 8'x6' tabletop with thousands of hand painted 6mm miniatures. In the month leading up to the game, we polled the public on a series of critical command decisions for each army. Nearly 10,000 votes were cast, and your votes determined some of the key orders given to the players on each side of this game. What orders did you issue and how will Lee and Meade fare 156 years later at Gettysburg?
Check out a video about the rules for the game at: • Altar of Freedom Rule ... or visit the rules website at www.6mmacw.com/
Check out more wargaming from Little Wars TV at / @littlewarstv
They cover battles from all over the world!
I’m an Englishman living in New Zealand who is fascinated by the U.S civil war. Very enjoyable watch, well done.
Me to but i’m dutch
Thanks Baz, I'm an American who is fascinated by British war history. Please to meet you.
Michael 732. Up the RED COATS and down the colonials! Went to Boston many years ago which was fascinating and then went down to D.C. I didn’t realize how close Gettysburg was and didn’t go. Definitely on my bucket list.
@@bazd884 DC is just a walk down the road. A 3 day march.
May I know why?
My vote for a second battle would be Antietam. Lee's first invasion of the North. Can the Union army use the two unused corps to finish off the Army of Northern Virginia?
Stevefe Little Wars TV did Antietam a while back but I agree it would be interesting to see them do it in more of this format.
*Game Spoilers*
Their Antietam game ended in a complete rout for the rebels where there army was almost entirely destroyed.
Shiloh would be a good one too
Do you mean SHARPSBURG?.
Hyperkid7 the south would of won if some southern scout did not take a pee and drop lees battle feild plans
Luke Derkovitz the union wasnt too weak on any area of their line, and lee still would have likely charged the middle
"I intend to pressure those people east of the city on the flank unless ordered otherwise" *reads orders* "i have decided, otherwise"
Steve : "And take those hills... if practicable"
Random viewers : "..... Okay"
Civil war enthusiasts : "Man... that's deep!"
Heh. This. I didn't know a thing about the U.S Civil War a few years back. Then I attended a UK re-enactment, wound up photographing US Civil War reenactors over a year (it's a thing in Britain too!) and next thing I know I'm flying over to spend a weekend in Gettysburg and walking Cemetery Hill. I wound up just completely hooked. And now phrases like, "Sir... I have no division," make my British stiff upper lip wobble. x
Peter Evans Pickett 👍🏼
@@PeterEvansPeteTakesPictures Great wargamers you Brits. ;-)
@@billd.iniowa2263 Yeah, you may or may not know... we (the British) really like war, or used to from about 400 AD to 1950 AD, I would say. I guess others like war more, though... Rome has to take the cake, no? 500 BC to 1945 AD... or, Greece, I guess... 800 BC to 2020 AD (half joking, of course). Shocking to many, the French have started more wars than any other nation in total looking at the data, and America has not started many, stopped many, and has not invaded many other nations (though they are far away and, in theory, have only existed for around 300 years, but still, that's impressive given how powerful they are). Of course, Americans have been heavily into war since 1941, though it kind of stopped by 1980 other than a few things in the Middle East. But, I digress.
“If practicable.” Those two words....
And, yes, Hood to the right....
This actually looks like fun
Hopefully they do WW1 and 2 battles
cristopher wong I know that
WW1 battles would be a little like this
Option A: rush for the next trench
Option B: wait the enemy for a rush
Repeat by 75
Congratulations! You've won half a mile! Only 360 more to reach Berlin!
Mr. Money that would work but I was thinking more of the major battles like Verdun or the Somme or the Russian civil war
I feel there should be a boardgame of this.
Mr. Money and you lost 50,000 men
"If practicable"
General Lee himself said those two words cost him the battle. The order should have been at any cost.
Fascinating to integrate people into history. Voted key decisions, well-dressed re-enactors, quality table layout and so forth help bring into the modern mind the fog of war and uncertainties that surround pivotal battles
This was very entertaining. Could you do one about a different battle. Like Fredericksburg or Chickamaga Creek.
Wow! This is really great content! How does one vote for the decisions? It's so interesting to see how different people in charge make different outcomes. Oh my god I love that Ewell guy's attempt at a Southern accent.
This is absolutely incredible! What a rush that must have been!
Lucky ducks! Getting to war game in Lee’s headquarters!
I'm such a geak. I watch the entire video talking to the screen. Arguing even. Would love to see this once a year. Or other battles.. Fredericksburg perhaps???
imagine there are actual general commanding the whole military drill irl , that will be sick
I had been a tabletop general years ago. To watch this and the interaction with viewers is most satisfying wish my old keens worked
I'm surprised that Sickles didn't violate every order.
Okay, watching the player run across the road with his hat on the sword made me laugh out loud.
Good game guys; however, what is the rule set?
Altar of Freedom. $15.00 US for PDF.
To anyone who likes to do "what ifs" on the Civil war. I highly recommend the pc game "Ultimate General: Civil war" Or if you only want the battle of Gettysburg. The game "Ultimate General: Gettysburg" They are really good indepth tactics games..
Too bad Civil War abandoned the system where you completely control what you do on the battle & instead have to follow scripted events, but it's still a good game
@@papovka agreed
@@papovka
I agree
Can I also recommend 'Scourge of War: Gettysburg' which you can play in 1st person on 3D terrain and in which you have to rely on the reports brought to you by either your AI or human officers in ordering your units? Played a multiplayer game where as a newbie I was asked to hold the northern end where no significant action was expected, and where the Rebs attacked in full force. A three hour battle in which I was sweating bullets, begging for reinforcements from my three human allies, and now-and-again intercepting equally desperate demands from captured couriers between the human confederate officers opposing me. Old but brilliant game.
Where was all the union guns? This was fun to watch. I missed the live feed.
The Union had 13 gun models on the table which represent 156-364 guns. So they're out there.
I’d love to see another one of these at a different battle site. Maybe Chancellorsville.
Check out what Little Wars has to offer on their channel: ruclips.net/channel/UCD6gPsr1xdvT9F4dntRAJ5gfeatured?disable_polymer=1
An army outnumbered 3/2 should not assault defences and entrenched troops who have a height advantage as well...no matter how desperate the cause or how great their personal elan is .
Lee thought he needed a decisive offensive battle on northern soil to end the war!
@@stevep5408 -Well that decisive battle on northern soil did effectively mark the end for the south .The combined July 4 1863 defeats at Gettysburg and Vicksburg cost the south international recognition by Great Britain and France.
Yeah, I think it's clear that Lee's strategy should have been to get the Union to attack his entrenched troops rather than attacking the Union entrenched positions.
@@martynspeck
No, Lee's army was outgunned and out supplied. How could he entice the union into attacking? The union would just sit there and bombard him. If he were to retreat, the union would be able to attack him easily, as they were not far apart, or, at the very least, they would send dragoons to harass them.
@@j.franklin21 -The Anaconda plan suggested by General Winfield Scott had largely isolated the south economically.While it is true that the federalists enjoyed a tremendous logistical advantage the popular pressure for swift and decisive actions often forced their hand.
Outfu@ki*gstanding! Truly a remarkable half hour of "What might have been!" Thank you so much!
Fought this on line battle, did what Longstreet said held the high ground away from town made the union attacked me, creamed them 🤠
What did u play on
Why on earth would the Union army attack Longstreet on the hills away from town when all the had to do was maneuver around them? You played against a poor general.
An 2nd Pickett’s charge would happen because the confederate government was pressuring Lee for an victory to settle for peace since the confederate armies were losing in the west and south.
*When you don't have a Stonewall*
YOU AINT GOT NO BALLS WITHOUT STONEWALL
We need both Stonewalls. An actual stone wall, as any real total war player knows, and Thomas Jackson.
Very good. There is no war gaming victory for Genl Lee at Gettysburg. The lack of Stuart's cavalry intelligence was pivotal.
Kent Brockman: "At the risk of sounding controversial, I'm placing the blame squarely on you, the viewers." This was brilliant, so much so I kind of wish it was longer. Got shivers seeing the Confederates claim Cemetery Ridge with their colours, then grinned like a loon with Sickles just throwing himself about like a madman. And that poor John Reynolds? Man, guy can't catch a break. And if you're pondering visiting the battlefield but never have, I say definitely do it. Fulfilled a bucket-list ambition last year flying over the pond and seeing it for myself. Incredible experience. (And also, some really good bars in Gettysburg. How was the Confederate advance not slowed by that?)
The major factor for the Army of the Potomac surviving and the Army of Northern Virginia retreating was the size of the armies.
Please do this again with other battles. This was awesome to watch. A lot of the what the people voted for was very perplexing given the terrain haha
I would love to see something like that happen again! Such an interesting way of going about it!
this was a fantastic game you guys played. Thanks for playing this great battle.
My advice would have been after the first day for the Confederate forces to withdraw from the Gettysburg area entirely and establish defensive positions east of Cashtown, PA, about 6 miles to the west. The Union forces would have followed and on July 3 would very likely have battered themselves against the Confederate positions, in a replay of Fredericksburg. The severely weakened Union forces would be forced to retreat back to Gettysburg, perhaps as far as Hanover, PA, Littlestown, PA, or Emmitsburg, MD. The Confederate forces would then have the opportunity to advance on Harrisburg, PA, the Pennsylvania state capital. Defeating the Army of the Potomac and taking a northern state capital might well convince many Northerners that the war was no longer worth the cost, despite the Union gains in the western theater with the fall of Vicksburg, MS.
You'd be forced to ignore the fact that Lee didn't know what he was facing. His cavalry were not doing their jobs. There's really no reason to think that Lee would have been any more aware of the Union deployment than he was historically. Also, there wouldn't be any reason for the Union to attack defensive positions east of Cashtown. They weren't hurting for supplies or needing to do anything but stay between Lee and Washington. Lee was under supply pressure, was losing the war in the west and couldn't risk being out maneuvered because he needed to be able to get back to Virginia eventually. Really, the Union held a fairly substantial tactical advantage during that campaign.
It was a brutal battle. With 42k deaths between both sides.
www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/gettysburg
Michael Hill I meant in the game
@@gaslightstudiosrebooted3432 Ah! Ok. Sorry, thought you meant historically
@@gaslightstudiosrebooted3432 Still think they were talking casualties not fatalities at the end though
Michael Hill fair enough
Very interesting the analysis of the battle. Good wishes!
More battles please! Revolutionary War, War of 1812, and more Civil War wargames with fan voting on major decisions.
What a cool episode! Awesome work, guys!
I'm also going to Gettysburg at the end of the month
Ooh, hope you enjoyed. I went a few weeks after you. I found it incredible. Stayed at the Farnsworth. :)
@@PeterEvansPeteTakesPictures it was incredible! We stayed at a bnb. It took me and my family about three hours to get through the museum. The cyclorama was also amazing.
Hmmmmm.... Declining to send Picket against the Union center was the decisive factor in this version of the battle, and that decision was made due to hindsight, which the confederates did not have. If you were to truly factor in the personalities of the Generals, you would have to send in Picket. Because Lee's position in this version was stronger than in the real battle. If he sent picket back then, SURELY he would have done so now! And the result would have been the same- a Confederate loss due to Lee's costly error. Eliminating that factor (Lee's "dander was up") gives the CSA a huge and unrealistic advantage, which led to more or less a draw in this version of the battle. Honestly, if you aren't going to send in Picket in a situation that is at least as favorable to it as it was in 1863, you may as well just skip the whole exercise because the outcome was weighted from the start.
Eliminating Lee's dander actually gives the Confederates very little. Lee's plan of campaign was ruined on 1 July- and he needed a strategic victory on the scale of Austerlitz or Jena. Anything less was a strategic defeat, regardless of how the battle turned out tactically.
@@manilajohn0182 - Are you suggesting that the losses from Picket's Charge had no affect on the war?
@@StumpyNubs No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying that Pickett's Charge was a long- odds action because it had very little chance of delivering what Lee needed. Moreover, Lee's had no viable alternative, because he was out of time both strategically and logistically- because his original plan of campaign was ruined on 1 July.
@@manilajohn0182 - And yet he still ordered it! That's a fact. Lee's personality made Pickett's charge inevitable, despite the objections from his generals. To suggest that Lee would have declined to order the charge from a stronger position in the simulation than he had historically is not realistic, in my opinion. The gamers declined to play half the battle because 21st century hindsight told them that it would not go well. It was their prerogative, of course. But if Lee's "dander" is taken out of the equation, you give the Confederate side a big advantage in the simulation that I think diminishes the historical accuracy of the game.
@@StumpyNubs Well, I never suggested that Lee would have declined to order the charge. That said, Lee's after action report makes it clear enough that his personality did not make Pickett's charge inevitable.
The strategic objective of the campaign was to achieve a great enough success to force the Union to lift the siege of Vicksburg, but he (and Longstreet) made it clear that Lee intended to achieve this by maneuvering the AotP into attacking the AoNV and then defeating the Union attack. This alone precludes any notion that Pickett's charge was somehow inevitable.
Pickett's charge eventually took place because Lee's plan of campaign was ruined by the meeting engagement on 1 July. The AoNV inflicted a minor tactical defeat on the AotP by assuming the tactical offensive. This precluded any reasonable chance that the AotP would carry out an attack on the AoNV and forced Lee to improvise in a situation where time (Vicksburg) and logistics (foraging) were already working against him. The result was further tactical offensives by Lee, which culminated in Pickett's charge.
I am deeply saddened to see all the young men thrown into the meat grinder of war. What a waste of possibilities.
I had this board game from Avalon Hill and refought the battle many times with my friends. Brings back memories 👍🏻❤️
I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the game called Johnny reb, this game is called altar of freedom
Comander Bacara no the game i had was called ‘Gettysburg’. Don’t recall a Johnny Reb game. They also made one called ‘Chancellorsville’ if I remember right
...always the :what if..." When I lived in the south I heard this stuff all the time. "We would have won IF..." While interesting, it really doesn't prove much since hind sight really never counts. ...besides, hindsight is cheating since there was no way that both sides would know everything about each other's forces and their placement! The sad irony is the South suffered a lot because of Lincoln's assassination since he wanted to reconcile with the South, but because he was gone the South was raped by carpet baggers and other low lifes! Interesting how the very man that would have given the South a break after the war was hated so much that they killed him and his death would hurt them so much!
I thought President Lincoln was assianeded cause he was trying to get the government to print their own money was called greenbacks cause of the color on 1 side of the bill and booth was a patsy ???
This is the Type of Video that my 2nd period Social studies Teacher would show The class
"Man 40k isn't anything like what my friends told me it was..."
Probably the biggest single move Jeff Davis could have made to secure victory for the South would have been to place NB Forrest in overall command in the West at the earliest possible opportunity..
Loved this game, the way it was fough so frantically compact was annoying thou. Wish it was more spread out like it was historically.
Thank you for sharing this experience!! It was a very interesting presentation. And it was cool to see the alternative choices results.
"The most visited battlefield in the nation"
*laughs in Europe*
With still a very strong force and good position I believe that without the very destructive Pickets Charge I think Lee would’ve stayed on the field having still not lost.
But Lee still had the lower ground with a smaller force
Once the attack on the hills on the 1st wasn’t made- the Federals had won here
LOTTA fun! Fun group of guys. God bless Dixie.
Less player screen time, more map screen time. An overhead of the entire table shot in time-lapse would help immensely. I've done it and you can get a much better picture of the ebb-and-flow of a battle. Its very hard to get the whole scope when the camera can only cover a 3rd of the table at a time.
Check out more wargaming from Little Wars TV. They cover battles from all over the world, including the Battle of Antietam for our Civil War fans. ruclips.net/channel/UCD6gPsr1xdvT9F4dntRAJ5gfeatured?disable_polymer=1
Rules Website: www.6mmacw.com/ - Rules Video Review: ruclips.net/video/x7hMYYwVTKs/видео.html&
I Don't really get it,anyone tell me how this game played?
I Don't get it but i like it.
Christian Sebullen it uses dice to simulate combat and tactics influence the dice rolls ie using different dice. Ex. Hills effect lower altitude cannon offensively
Always love coming back to watch this video.
awesome wargame! I voted! It would have been a good decision to send longstreet to attack Sickles at the peach orchard, continue towards the round tops, and possibly flank the Federal army.
Make mini squares instead of measuring all moves 🤣🤣🤣
Thank you for doing this! What a different way to see another option on this battlefield. Yes General Sickles that whole damn field is your monument!!! One of my favorite generals.
Who else skipped forward to see if it ended with the guys throwing pieces at each other?
I looked up modern war footage and it gave me this. Thank god i love these guys
That was anticlimactic Why did Lee run off on day 3 in this one? This ending leaves to many questions but I'm guessing he still loses the war in this alternative history.
The scenario only lasted for three days--in part because that was the historical length, and in part because the armies (particularly Lee's) were typically not supplied to fight sustained, heavy engagements much longer than a few days without breaking off.
Marse Robert was ill and his cavalry was off raiding and didn't arrive until it was too late. Longstreet was not in favor of the attack as the Union held the high ground and had seen the results of that type of attack when the A.N.V. chewed up the Union at Fredericksburg. Longstreet didn't attack when he was supposed to. I'll watch the vid now and see what they say.
Amazing video!
This looks like so much fun. Lucky guys.
Union Artillery MIA? Narration mentioned CSA Artillery several times, but no mention of the historically more numerous and effective Union guns. Both sides' Cavalry (but for Buford) also 'not mentioned in dispatches', though I suppose you can rationalize that as meaning they are off-map neutralizing each other.
I would guess that this was an edited video where a lot was left out due to length. My guess would be that they just didn't happen to include mentions of the Union Artillery. It would have been included in the game each time there was a fight but only the most dramatic parts of the game - such as the deaths of Generals - made it into the video.
.
@Bob Smith -- Yep, that seems plausible.
I watched it several times and still enjoy a great job guys
Amazing, as a living historian myself. I'd love to see more of these.
When the Union took the high ground, the battle was lost.
That's what obi-wan kenobi would say.
What miniature game is this? Where can I get minus like those to build an army and play?
This is altar of freedom
I like how ewell treated this as the prime opportunity for some Gettysburg (1993) memes.
i live in alibama i go for the south
If you have a love of military history and would like to recreate battles and play the role of a field commander, please check out little wars tv or HMGS. This was a great pairing of two organizations that shed light on preservation efforts and miniature war gaming. Great job to all!
Great game, great presentation! What rules did you use?
Altar of Freedom. $15.00 US for the PDF.
I had the chance of Garry giving me a tour of Gettysburg a couple weeks ago, was pretty neat. I remember we went to Lees headquarters
General Lee: "From atop Cemetary Hill, I can see Confederate flags moving up through the smoke, and a courier has just arrived at my headquarters. General Reynolds has fallen."
General Ewell: "Day late, but, still got him."
I believe the battle was lost by JEB Stuart when he mishandled the Confederate calvary so there was none of them there when they were needed, and Lee, let alone Heth, did not know where Buford, or the rest of the Union Army was. If Lee could have been the one holding the good ground forcing the Union to have to attack. it could have been another Fredericksburg. It's possible Hood could have reached and occupied Little Round Top if Confederate Calvary had been there to scout the ground and lead the way. But it was not to be.
Wow! You did it! You changed history! Well done. Three more people died including the inventor of refrigeration. No matter, salt barrels work fine. I think you also got the guy whos grandson started the Macarena. So there's that.
Very interesting twist on things! Lee just didn't have the gas, luck or, an incompetent Union General to out-general. Lee HAD to clearly win, not to break even or, lose and he sure didn't win. Sending Longstreet around the right flank of the round tops could have changed the whole outcome but, Lee had Victory Disease and thought he could blast through the Yankees...troops he did not respect...but got a hard leson that he should have.
Ultimate General: Civil War has prepared me for this.
Those numbers would be way different if that had "Pickett's Charged" on day 3. Feels like an incomplete day. Basically turned it into Antietam's real outcome.
What a mess! I have visited the battlefield and probably know as much about the battle as any of the participants but I pity the poor bugger knowing less and trying to make sense of this. Why the frequent cuts into choppy two second views all over the place??? There's a reason why movies like Gettysburg always show the antagonists coming from the same direction. The direction and editing here make it unwatchable. Then there's that persistent tone in the commentary... The table-top layout and uniforms are good.
I determined who I was supporting by two simple words, General and Lee
Without Pickett's charge on 3rd day. The Confederate army doesn't lose it's command structure. Those veteran generals could have been the difference maker in the coming months and years of the Civil War. Not sure if the lose of 3 generals on Union side would have hurt much in long run. Maybe a little morale in few weeks or months after maybe.
the confederate army shouldve won gettysburg they could defeat larger armies
They could definitely win when defending, but it's very hard to attack an enemy when you have a smaller Army.
Also, the Confederate Army had less supplies. They could not just sit back and bombard the Union, nor could they sit back and allow themselves to be bombarded.
@@j.franklin21 jackson defeated the union army with a comparison of 17000 confederates against 52000 union soldiers because the confederates were mobile and could outflank their enemies. This comparison that i am making is jacksons valley campaign
This was so cool, well done!
As in life so true is it in gaming.... It's all about how the dice are cast.
Do you know what you guys need to do, write up a report of the battle a though it was historical so we can compare the real battle versus the multiple command decision made through votes. We all sit back as Monday morning quarterbacks and when it comes to historical battles, maybe it would be good to read a report based upon OUR decisions.
Thank you. That was wonderful.
A supply/retreat line string should be added to the map, the attack north made the Confederates supply and retreat line vulnerable. Having impact on the outcome and fighting strength a Union left attack on the supply line by the Union would not have an impact on this outcome. In reality cutting off the road to the left would have been one of those war ending possibilities.
So basically, odd war gaming rules resulted in the improbable loss of multiple commanders which caused the tactical decision making of the event to have less impact than 3 dice rolls. Seems like a poorly thought out rules set.
Why was Stuart's Cav not used in this game? Although late for the historical battle, he did show up. Seems the gamers could have used Stuart on the 2nd or third day to harass the Federal flanks or rear.
Imagine the veterans of Gettysburg up in heaven watching us do the same exact thing they have PTSD from
I love civil war history, as well as alternate history scenarios, so this was an absolute treat for me to watch. Please do more of these.
I dunno, I've heard walking very slowly across an open field works if you're brave enough...
Vera, vera late to this ball, but Ah do swayuh that dem damyankees musta stuffed the ballot box to come upon a vera silly decision to move to the Confederate left on the second day
well I have found a new respect for mead after finding out about how a general in the civil war had the same last name
If you ever make to Gettysburg comment section eat at The Blue and Grey bar and grill. if you eat at the pub your a chump
Poor General Reynolds, he could only escape death once.
@26:00. I think that's wishfull thinking that Sickles whould do as Meade requested.
HI THERE!
where do you get all the figures for this?
my 4 time great grandfather Malachi Garrity and his son Edward C Garrity fought for the 20th Mass
J.E.B. Stewart's calvary wasn't used in this battle.
They were late to the party, don't recall exacly when; Weren't they driven off by none other than Michigander, General Custer?
This was awesome and I really liked how everyone got in character to an extent.
It’s like little kids playing with legos but they are adults playing with realistic legos