I first started studying the various Li (or Lee) Family Arts in the 1970's / 1980's. And attended several courses taught by Professor Chee Soo. He was a very impressive individual, that should probably only be judged by those that have actually trained with him. Some of his Highest Graded Instructors are people like Tony Swanson (former President of the BCCMA), Peter Warr (current President of the BCCMA), and Keith Ewers, among others. The Li Family Arts taught by Chee Soo included Feng Shou (Fung Sau) Kung Fu, Chi Shu (a throwing art), Chiao Li (Wrestling), Li style T'ai Chi Ch'uan (variously also known as Yin-Yang or Square (Court) Yard Tai Chi.) Plus various Health Arts, and Weapon Sets including Straight Sword, Sabre, Staff, 2 section whip, etc. So if his critics are saying that he made it all up, he must have had a phenomenal imagination!
A very skilled individual to be sure. One highly skilled in the martial arts. Are you saying someone highly skilled in martial arts couldn’t come up with their own system?
I learned Lee style Tai Chi too! The history around Chee Soo is cloudy to be sure. He definitely trained with some of the first Judo and Aikido practitioners from Japan in the UK as there are photos of him with them. The teachers he taught that I met had that 'density', thick wrists and very grounded stance that I would associate with experienced Judokas. Their pushing hands was very grounded and based on mechanical principles. There are people from different periods in Chee Soo's teaching that say different things. For example Darryl Cross who still teaches Feng Shou (he calls it Fung Yang Sau) said that when he trained with Chee in the 70s there was no Tai Chi and this was only added later. When you look at the disciplines it looks like it had striking, throws and some ground fighting, so he was trying to create a 'complete' kind of system which is admirable. My general opinion is this - I got a lot of benefits from doing Tai Chi, so if the dude just made it all up, fair play to him. The Feng Shou stuff was fun and there were some good drills around distance management and trying to not telegraph strikes, but ultimately pressure testing is a key component of understand YOUR effectiveness with a martial art, and there was very little intensity in that respect. I found a channel on youtube which seem to practice Lee style tai chi in cornwall - www.youtube.com/@SeahorseArts
I think I agree with you. Too many people focus on lineage, but, let’s face it, some one made up (formalised) the system at some point. As long as it works then who cares? Thanks for the link 🙏🏻
@@indefenceofthetraditionalma Yeah, lineage should mean "this shit works and continues to work", anything else and you're basically the curator of a cultural practice and not a fighting system. I guess that's okay as long as you're not giving people the idea they can actually defend themselves, which they always do. It feels like Chee Soo had the mindset to try and make a system that based on what he'd learned, taking what worked for him and trying to break it down into drills and forms because he felt that was the best way to teach stuff. But there's also just this bad taste about just nicking other people's stuff and saying it was your original 3000 year old or whatever family style. So yeah interesting guy, unfortunately I feel like his students will all get on the lineage train, adhere rigidly to the syllabus, never learn newer techniques or adapt it for modern times or simply getting rid of shit that doesn't work, so it'll probably die out in generation, as it only exists in the uk really. Bit of a shame really. Edit - just realised that you had the same two videos I linked in your video lol! I watched your vid a few days ago and went down the Lee style rabbit hole before replying ruclips.net/video/Glhigfam4X4/видео.html ruclips.net/video/-CJGqYqNZeY/видео.html if anyone is interested in the original links
Hi, Z, my name is Darryl Cross. I teach Fung Yang Sau which definitely uses its base/core as Fung Sau, same ideals, concepts and principles. Sorry, I never, ever stated what has been written previously, that when we trained in the 70's, there was No Tai Chi, this is incorrect. There was indeed Tai Chi Chuan at that time. Everyone/Anyone is welcome to train with me at any time, I teach Kung Fu. I enjoy it as much now, as I ever have.
YAH! Pre-internet information was so easily filtered from my BS detector then. Now it's like defending against 'carpet bombing'. "The Glish Gallop" is now the norm (whether you're religious or not, the style of argument is the similar to the fanboys of any weak belief): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop#:~:text=The%20Gish%20gallop%20%2F%CB%88%C9%A1,or%20strength%20of%20those%20arguments.
Holy crap, Looking through kung fu demo footage like that brings me waaay back, I used to consume an ungoldy amount of dvds, videos like these etc. Back when I was 14- 15 before I even trained anything, i was lucky then that when I met an mma coach at that time who was open minded and did many things besides just mma, and he sort of put me on a path to explore everything, fast forward 10 years and now I'm actively training mma and jiu jitsu but with so much of traditional martial arts in the background for me to draw inspiration and intelectual practice and so on.... Oh and yeah you seem to be right, Wing Chun is somehow almost leading the "traditional kung fu in mma" scene probably more than any other chinese style on the internet
I trained for 10 years with Chee, and then continued with the Lee style , mainly focusing on tai ch as a health art. In the early days as we drove back to Derby in the van, we often wondered whether it was made up and why it differed so much from what we saw of Yang style, but we persevered and now in my 70s I think I might understand some of it. I might even do or be tai chi instead of practicing it, but I dont real.y know. Its difficult to find anyone to practice with except a close friend, but there is no regularity to give good practice. I always thought that this stuff was bornin small villges where the old men would gather in the evenings and play with these skills and ideas. I often wonder if similar things happened in ancient English villages, before!
When all is said and done, does it really matter if it was made up? I used to love doing the Lee style form. All martial styles were made up at some point
Continuing my reply Having accepted Chee and putting commitment into learning what we thought he was teaching, all you can do is practice. We Gradually understood the nature of the tiger we were riding but luckily were too poor to do too much. After the death of Chee the organisation fragmented each senior instructor branching off, each seeming to offer a different view of tai chi. We followed Tony Swanson into the TAO who is a good practitioner and teacher. I still go through a daily routine and believe it has helped me to remain healthy into the third age. In any one class no two students come to it for the same reason, with the same background, or learn the same thing from any particular lesson.
One of the featured clips in this video (1970) states he had 600 students in the UK. At that time Bruce Lee was just stating to be known in the West. Btw there is Feng Sho in Germany ruclips.net/video/1RDEjlprKPM/видео.htmlsi=Bxu7_7S0LIlwHM7e
I studied this system in the 80s with Chee Soo's Son in Law. Tai Chi was added once you achieved a certain sash. Son in Law and Daughter had split from Chee Soo due to disagreements with the system. That's my memory anyway and my thoughts match yours. I think Chee Soo made up the system from all the systems he had studied prior although I do hear Chee Soo was very skilful.
@@indefenceofthetraditionalma I dunno, I was given a toy plastic sword, based on the 40k war game, and thought "I know, I'll learn to do it in the system i used to practice" and googled Lee style sword form, and there were several people putting up their sword form, its actually easy to find. Most of it looks shit, but thats by the by, its not dissapeared. I think dilution is the real issue.
I started off doing Lee style tai chi. My first teacher had learnt feng shou kung fu and Lee style tai chi under chee soo. I can still remember, early on, when we transitioned over to wu dang style
@@indefenceofthetraditionalma Since you did both styles, what do you think are any similarities? I was going to mention that I wonder if there is a connection between Lee style and Wudang style. It's certainly different, but it's closer than any other style that I know about. And they both have a somewhat murky history. There is another Tai chi style called Li style that is rare in the west, but it's completely different.
@@ambulocetusnatans There are people that i trained with that used to use the spelling Lee and now use Li, same style, I dont know if that means anything.
Please show some respect, sir. Let's be clear, the Chinese taught marital arts to the people of Okinowa , who then taught it to the Japanese. From personal experience, Sigung Chee Soo, was the real deal and had no need to make anything up and was the inheritor of the Li style 'Kung-Fu' from his Sigung the Chinese Master who taught him, which naturally includes Akido etc, and all martial arts spring from Tai Chi or Taiji, to the uninitiated it appears to be slow and have no martial aspect, as well as 'Kung-Fu ' is the art of not fighting, but knowing what to do should someone be so foolish enough to start a fight. Kung-Fu is a deadly weapen not to be played with, and very few students have the respect and humility to have the internal power aspect of the art revealed to them, which is where the real power comes from. Empty words are meaningless, what is needed is action, as is the meaning of Kung-Fu itself, discipline, to practice 10,000 times each move until mastery is achieved. Shaolin Kung-Fu is already the original MMA, as the Shaolin monks and nuns, mixed indian martial arts from Bodhidharma an indian prince warrior Buddhist monk, with the Taoist Kung-Fu various styles, to from the MMA of Shaolin, which is also where Ving Tsun, or Wing Chun comes from, through the Shaolin nun Ng Mui, passed on through lineage to Ip Man, Victor Kan the best student of Ip Man, who taught Bruce Lee only half the system, as he left for America, and so mixed other styles etc.,to form his own Jeet Kun Do, a master in his own right, yet still his style of no style is based on the principles of Wing Chun which is 50 % of Jeet kun Do. Even in the presence of a Sifu Master, there is still a whole world of difference with the Sigung Grandmaster who rarely if ever reveals the depth of Kung-Fu to the undisciplined mind and body of a student who is unworty due to lack of disciplined practice and so therefore unable to grasp the true essence of Kung-Fu. As the saying goes not to cast pearls before swine and as Bruce Lee put it, the student is taught according to their capacity to receive. So, with all due respect, sir. As Bruce Lee said that which was taught to him by Sigung Ip Man quoting from the Tao Te Ching, Be Like Water My Friend. 🤜🫷☯️ Kung-Fu has nothing to do with belief, which is simply a projection of ignorance. It is the practical application that matters, you do it, you get it, or you don't.
Respect was given throughout. This doesn’t change the fact that there is doubt as to the authenticity of feng shou kung fu. If you could show me any lineage outside of Chee Soo then please share. As for the rest of what you’ve written, I think you’ve fallen into the trap of mysticism and fantasy instead of fact. Martial arts developed all over the world. I can’t quite get how anyone believes that one system started and then spread throughout China and then onward to Japan. Japan and China have influenced each other throughout history so of course there would have been crossovers in martial arts ideas. This belief that China created kung fu and then is spread to japan is silly. What, the people of Okinawa never fought anyone until a Chinese kung fu master turned up and showed them how? Ancient fighting practices have existed everywhere and came into existence free from Chinese influence.
@indefenceofthetraditionalma you have misinterpreted and misunderstood.....May you do your own due diligence to find out the truth for yourself. I believe nothing, I only know what I have actually experienced and not unconscious fantasy. There was no implication implied that others did not have their own martial arts to do so would certainly be 'silly', that is already a given and plenty of evidence to show such. Check out the Martual Art of Khem (Egypt) Sebek Ka. There is much to learn......Good luck with your own unique journey. Be Like Water My Friend. 🤜🫷☯️
I first started studying the various Li (or Lee) Family Arts in the 1970's / 1980's. And attended several courses taught by Professor Chee Soo. He was a very impressive individual, that should probably only be judged by those that have actually trained with him. Some of his Highest Graded Instructors are people like Tony Swanson (former President of the BCCMA), Peter Warr (current President of the BCCMA), and Keith Ewers, among others. The Li Family Arts taught by Chee Soo included Feng Shou (Fung Sau) Kung Fu, Chi Shu (a throwing art), Chiao Li (Wrestling), Li style T'ai Chi Ch'uan (variously also known as Yin-Yang or Square (Court) Yard Tai Chi.) Plus various Health Arts, and Weapon Sets including Straight Sword, Sabre, Staff, 2 section whip, etc. So if his critics are saying that he made it all up, he must have had a phenomenal imagination!
A very skilled individual to be sure. One highly skilled in the martial arts. Are you saying someone highly skilled in martial arts couldn’t come up with their own system?
I spent 10 years with him he was an expectional person he started learning his arts aged 8 or 9
When you realize you are in a real fight, the Kung Fu salute is essential for proper chi balance and a good bowel movement.
😂😂😂
I learned Lee style Tai Chi too! The history around Chee Soo is cloudy to be sure. He definitely trained with some of the first Judo and Aikido practitioners from Japan in the UK as there are photos of him with them. The teachers he taught that I met had that 'density', thick wrists and very grounded stance that I would associate with experienced Judokas. Their pushing hands was very grounded and based on mechanical principles. There are people from different periods in Chee Soo's teaching that say different things. For example Darryl Cross who still teaches Feng Shou (he calls it Fung Yang Sau) said that when he trained with Chee in the 70s there was no Tai Chi and this was only added later. When you look at the disciplines it looks like it had striking, throws and some ground fighting, so he was trying to create a 'complete' kind of system which is admirable.
My general opinion is this - I got a lot of benefits from doing Tai Chi, so if the dude just made it all up, fair play to him. The Feng Shou stuff was fun and there were some good drills around distance management and trying to not telegraph strikes, but ultimately pressure testing is a key component of understand YOUR effectiveness with a martial art, and there was very little intensity in that respect. I found a channel on youtube which seem to practice Lee style tai chi in cornwall - www.youtube.com/@SeahorseArts
I think I agree with you. Too many people focus on lineage, but, let’s face it, some one made up (formalised) the system at some point. As long as it works then who cares?
Thanks for the link 🙏🏻
@@indefenceofthetraditionalma Yeah, lineage should mean "this shit works and continues to work", anything else and you're basically the curator of a cultural practice and not a fighting system. I guess that's okay as long as you're not giving people the idea they can actually defend themselves, which they always do.
It feels like Chee Soo had the mindset to try and make a system that based on what he'd learned, taking what worked for him and trying to break it down into drills and forms because he felt that was the best way to teach stuff. But there's also just this bad taste about just nicking other people's stuff and saying it was your original 3000 year old or whatever family style. So yeah interesting guy, unfortunately I feel like his students will all get on the lineage train, adhere rigidly to the syllabus, never learn newer techniques or adapt it for modern times or simply getting rid of shit that doesn't work, so it'll probably die out in generation, as it only exists in the uk really. Bit of a shame really.
Edit - just realised that you had the same two videos I linked in your video lol! I watched your vid a few days ago and went down the Lee style rabbit hole before replying ruclips.net/video/Glhigfam4X4/видео.html ruclips.net/video/-CJGqYqNZeY/видео.html if anyone is interested in the original links
Thanks. I should’ve linked the original vids.
Hi, Z, my name is Darryl Cross. I teach Fung Yang Sau which definitely uses its base/core as Fung Sau, same ideals, concepts and principles. Sorry, I never, ever stated what has been written previously, that when we trained in the 70's, there was No Tai Chi, this is incorrect. There was indeed Tai Chi Chuan at that time. Everyone/Anyone is welcome to train with me at any time, I teach Kung Fu. I enjoy it as much now, as I ever have.
Wow that brought back memories. My first Kung fu style as well and I found that book in a second bookstore last year.
It’s difficult to find people who want to train to fight
I trained with Professor Chee Soo for 10 years when he lived in Coventry he was an exceptional mentor
Now I'm nostalgic for the 80s too. 😅
Good times
YAH! Pre-internet information was so easily filtered from my BS detector then. Now it's like defending against 'carpet bombing'. "The Glish Gallop" is now the norm (whether you're religious or not, the style of argument is the similar to the fanboys of any weak belief): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop#:~:text=The%20Gish%20gallop%20%2F%CB%88%C9%A1,or%20strength%20of%20those%20arguments.
Holy crap, Looking through kung fu demo footage like that brings me waaay back, I used to consume an ungoldy amount of dvds, videos like these etc. Back when I was 14- 15 before I even trained anything, i was lucky then that when I met an mma coach at that time who was open minded and did many things besides just mma, and he sort of put me on a path to explore everything, fast forward 10 years and now I'm actively training mma and jiu jitsu but with so much of traditional martial arts in the background for me to draw inspiration and intelectual practice and so on....
Oh and yeah you seem to be right, Wing Chun is somehow almost leading the "traditional kung fu in mma" scene probably more than any other chinese style on the internet
I actually feel really nostalgic for those days. I can almost smell the dusty hardwood floor of some community centre 😂
I trained for 10 years with Chee, and then continued with the Lee style , mainly focusing on tai ch as a health art. In the early days as we drove back to Derby in the van, we often wondered whether it was made up and why it differed so much from what we saw of Yang style, but we persevered and now in my 70s I think I might understand some of it. I might even do or be tai chi instead of practicing it, but I dont real.y know. Its difficult to find anyone to practice with except a close friend, but there is no regularity to give good practice. I always thought that this stuff was bornin small villges where the old men would gather in the evenings and play with these skills and ideas. I often wonder if similar things happened in ancient English villages, before!
When all is said and done, does it really matter if it was made up? I used to love doing the Lee style form. All martial styles were made up at some point
When you join a group like cheers you make judgements about how much you trust them and to some extent put your body and soul in their hands
Continuing my reply
Having accepted Chee and putting commitment into learning what we thought he was teaching, all you can do is practice. We
Gradually understood the nature of the tiger we were riding but luckily were too poor to do too much. After the death of Chee the organisation fragmented each senior instructor branching off, each seeming to offer a different view of tai chi. We followed Tony Swanson into the TAO who is a good practitioner and teacher. I still go through a daily routine and believe it has helped me to remain healthy into the third age.
In any one class no two students come to it for the same reason, with the same background, or learn the same thing from any particular lesson.
@@clifforddowler5765 thank you for sharing. Love your response 🙏🏻
One of his students taught in perth western Australia.
I was a student around 1976. There was a smaller book that used Fung Sau spelling.
One of the featured clips in this video (1970) states he had 600 students in the UK. At that time Bruce Lee was just stating to be known in the West.
Btw there is Feng Sho in Germany ruclips.net/video/1RDEjlprKPM/видео.htmlsi=Bxu7_7S0LIlwHM7e
The square yard style
I wonder if there's a chapter in there dedicated to invisible scabbards...... ;)
The most powerful of all tai chi techniques….
I studied this system in the 80s with Chee Soo's Son in Law. Tai Chi was added once you achieved a certain sash. Son in Law and Daughter had split from Chee Soo due to disagreements with the system. That's my memory anyway and my thoughts match yours. I think Chee Soo made up the system from all the systems he had studied prior although I do hear Chee Soo was very skilful.
I’m definitely not disputing his skill. I actually think it’s sad that this system will probably die out
@@indefenceofthetraditionalma I dunno, I was given a toy plastic sword, based on the 40k war game, and thought "I know, I'll learn to do it in the system i used to practice" and googled Lee style sword form, and there were several people putting up their sword form, its actually easy to find. Most of it looks shit, but thats by the by, its not dissapeared. I think dilution is the real issue.
@@dorianleakey I never learnt the Lee style sword form. Think I’ll have a search
Taoist tai chi. I assessed some of there teachers for teacher membership of the tai chi union. They did tai chi wand and a silk scarf type thing.
I started off doing Lee style tai chi. My first teacher had learnt feng shou kung fu and Lee style tai chi under chee soo. I can still remember, early on, when we transitioned over to wu dang style
@@indefenceofthetraditionalma Since you did both styles, what do you think are any similarities? I was going to mention that I wonder if there is a connection between Lee style and Wudang style. It's certainly different, but it's closer than any other style that I know about. And they both have a somewhat murky history.
There is another Tai chi style called Li style that is rare in the west, but it's completely different.
@ambulocetusnatans I was only ever taught the Lee form. There were a few similarities but no more or less than there are with yang or wu
@@ambulocetusnatans There are people that i trained with that used to use the spelling Lee and now use Li, same style, I dont know if that means anything.
Please show some respect, sir.
Let's be clear, the Chinese taught marital arts to the people of Okinowa , who then taught it to the Japanese.
From personal experience, Sigung Chee Soo, was the real deal and had no need to make anything up and was the inheritor of the Li style 'Kung-Fu' from his Sigung the Chinese Master who taught him, which naturally includes Akido etc, and all martial arts spring from Tai Chi or Taiji, to the uninitiated it appears to be slow and have no martial aspect, as well as 'Kung-Fu ' is the art of not fighting, but knowing what to do should someone be so foolish enough to start a fight. Kung-Fu is a deadly weapen not to be played with, and very few students have the respect and humility to have the internal power aspect of the art revealed to them, which is where the real power comes from. Empty words are meaningless, what is needed is action, as is the meaning of Kung-Fu itself, discipline, to practice 10,000 times each move until mastery is achieved. Shaolin Kung-Fu is already the original MMA, as the Shaolin monks and nuns, mixed indian martial arts from Bodhidharma an indian prince warrior Buddhist monk, with the Taoist Kung-Fu various styles, to from the MMA of Shaolin, which is also where Ving Tsun, or Wing Chun comes from, through the Shaolin nun Ng Mui, passed on through lineage to Ip Man, Victor Kan the best student of Ip Man, who taught Bruce Lee only half the system, as he left for America, and so mixed other styles etc.,to form his own Jeet Kun Do, a master in his own right, yet still his style of no style is based on the principles of Wing Chun which is 50 % of Jeet kun Do. Even in the presence of a Sifu Master, there is still a whole world of difference with the Sigung Grandmaster who rarely if ever reveals the depth of Kung-Fu to the undisciplined mind and body of a student who is unworty due to lack of disciplined practice and so therefore unable to grasp the true essence of Kung-Fu. As the saying goes not to cast pearls before swine and as Bruce Lee put it, the student is taught according to their capacity to receive. So, with all due respect, sir. As Bruce Lee said that which was taught to him by Sigung Ip Man quoting from the Tao Te Ching, Be Like Water My Friend. 🤜🫷☯️ Kung-Fu has nothing to do with belief, which is simply a projection of ignorance. It is the practical application that matters, you do it, you get it, or you don't.
Respect was given throughout. This doesn’t change the fact that there is doubt as to the authenticity of feng shou kung fu. If you could show me any lineage outside of Chee Soo then please share.
As for the rest of what you’ve written, I think you’ve fallen into the trap of mysticism and fantasy instead of fact. Martial arts developed all over the world. I can’t quite get how anyone believes that one system started and then spread throughout China and then onward to Japan.
Japan and China have influenced each other throughout history so of course there would have been crossovers in martial arts ideas. This belief that China created kung fu and then is spread to japan is silly. What, the people of Okinawa never fought anyone until a Chinese kung fu master turned up and showed them how?
Ancient fighting practices have existed everywhere and came into existence free from Chinese influence.
@indefenceofthetraditionalma you have misinterpreted and misunderstood.....May you do your own due diligence to find out the truth for yourself. I believe nothing, I only know what I have actually experienced and not unconscious fantasy. There was no implication implied that others did not have their own martial arts to do so would certainly be 'silly', that is already a given and plenty of evidence to show such. Check out the Martual Art of Khem (Egypt) Sebek Ka. There is much to learn......Good luck with your own unique journey. Be Like Water My Friend. 🤜🫷☯️
The book I had had him showing the square yard style in pictures
Popularity.
The movies?
Movies?
@@indefenceofthetraditionalma can’t remember what I was responding to
@@CharlesGorrie was it the ip man movie thing?
The tip man movies
Yes, yes, I think you’re onto something there