Was flipping threw torque video. And came across this video . HOLY MOTHER OF GOD . I had one of these solid frame go carts when i was a kid . Found it in the trash one morning riding my bike . No engine just frame and wheels /steering bracket , at that time i had road a few go carts that freinds parents bought them from local farm and country stores and harbor freight , but this one was not junk , it also had 4 street slicks like these but all the same size like the front wheels you have . I took apart an old rodo-til buried in my woods for the clutch system and had an old generator with a honda 5.0 liter that the electro was no good . BRO!!!!! When i put those two together and got the chain to match the sprocket and drive shaft . I never -NEVER NEW “ that go -carts where unbelievably fast and the torque that thing put out !!! CRAZY i could max it on my steet and hit the corner full in . And drop the peddle !!! And that bitch would spin those rear tires like a 1000 horse drift car would and i could tokyo drift that cart from curb side to curb side leaving twin tire marks like a snake down my street . I wind up cracking the frame where the front steering would meet the torsion bars that stablized the front end and never got it fixed , a guy saw me with it one day my mom had a yard sale and offered me 300 dollars for it and i sold it to him . He said it was collectable the frames where ? Idk but that was the most fun i ever had as a kid just slidding that thing up and down the street . Im sorry for the long message but this took me to place that was happy 😃 once and had to share it .
I thank you for your post and your cart looks like a hoot! I would respectfully like to offer another idea as to the cause of this issue. Long read but I think you will find its worth it. The lock up condition the 30 series will do is IMHO increased by a very hot and often worn belt! If you hit high RPM and top ratio on the TC and remove the drive torque, go into "engine breaking”, this can wedge the belt in the non conical bottom of the driven pulley and you skid to a stop! When you have the tension go away on the top of the belt (not under power) and tension moves to the bottom of the belt because the back wheels are now turning the engine. This will suck the belt deeper into the non conical portion of the secondary pulley, where it can get caught, as we know! Just in the same way a rope tightens around a capstan winch. This problem is increased with a belt that is too narrow from wear. The perfect condition for this lock up to happen? Go climb a 1/4 mile of road at full throttle where you can only reach 50% of top speed because of the climb. Turn around at the top all heated up and come down hill over speed, then come off the power. This will snag a worn hot belt a large percentage of the time! This will happen regardless of the condition of the driver pulley assembly. As long as it has the ability to bring the belt right up to its largest possible driver diameter! This can happen even with a new belt however far less common. I give this as an example because I do it often going to my mailbox on one of my 2 minibikes. I have had this lockup happen no less then 10 times over the years. I tired of shitting myself and have since changed final drive ratio by going from a 45 tooth to a 60. Belts last at least 5 times longer before they start to do the suicide breaking thing lol. The bikes lost very little top speed and are much more fun on the up and down trails witch were eating belts. These belts entirely edge wear and get narrower and can do so in a hour with 10HP. Next time someone has this condition happen I encourage you to observe that the belt will be stuck in the secondary pulley independent of the driver pulley. You can even cut the belt top and bottom and the segment in the secondary will still be stuck! This is completely because the belt gets too deep in the non conical portion of the driven pulley while hot, rapidly cools from the reduction of drive forces (going down hill) and snags and tries to wind tightly. The pulley and belt bite and bind because the pulley is opened fully to limit with a belt as a wedge. The drag forces inputing to these systems are not managed well and less so with a out of spec belt! If you were able to ask the engineers at Comet I think they would agree that this is an issue of the secondary pulley driving (engine breaking) an out of spec belt. As well offshore cloners not getting a lot of the details into there products! Best advice to avoid this, keep a fresh belt on. When these belts wear they run deeper into the secondary pulley where they get caught. Also increase final axle sprocket size some if your geared tall, this will greatly reduce belt heat and premature wear. When down hilling don't over speed this will help keep the belt out of the danger zone. Enjoy
Thanks for posting this. The one I purchased; I see the issue already. The inside and outside diameter are okay. The Width is the issue. It needs to be at least 3/8's of an inch longer.
I just got my eBay kit today and it’s the same, needs an extra 3/8 to not be moving all over. You can go to your local plumbing or hardware store and get either 3/4 or 1 inch copper pipe and be able to cut your own bushings.
Thank you I ran a belt that I shouldn’t have and it was slightly thinner waiting for the new ones in the mail and noticed that there was west from the bushing being moved and not having the belt fully on it and wear across the line of the center of the belt shifting I’m putting the correct belts on and removing this messed up bushing
Thank you for this video. I was putting a torque converter on my engine yesterday and noticed they sent me just a washer to keep the belt inline. They didn't even send me that cooper sleeve. Guess they realize it's not important as well.
Thats pretty darn interesting that bushing can do that. I had a similar thing happen to me i .had my torque converter clutch lock up like that before on my minibike. Mine was caused by that little splined piece that the pully sheaves move on. It had build up and wouldn't let the sheave retract when fully locked up. Cleaned and it worked good. Ill definently remember to keep a eye on the bushing as well
I just got a manco dingo, and whoever owned it before had the clutch backwards, obviously that's a terrible idea, all of its insides exploded and nearly nailed me in the face 🙃
Great video man. I'm definitely taking that bushing out of my minibike tc before I ride next time. Also, my tc is getting stick and not releasing. Assuming it needs to be cleaned. What's the best way to do this? Compressed air? Also what needs to be lubricated on the tc?
The best way to clean it is to take it apart and just use some parts cleaner. The driver is very easy to take apart but the driven pulley is a bit harder and you could probably get by with just spraying parts cleaner down in it. The main things that need lubrication are the brass bushing if you are using it, the inner sleeve that the driver slides on that’s shaped like a cross and the shaft the driven side slides on when expanding. I’d use some type of dry lube or no sling product so it doesn’t get on the friction surfaces of the converter and cause slipping.
I just had my bike lock up on me the other day during my ride and after taking the driver out I was able to see that the brass bushing got caught just like that and wouldn’t let the back wheel move. I know at higher speeds that bushing moves around and makes noise so it seems like a two for one for me to just get rid of that
My bearings on the rear system went out. That's my job today is installing bearings on my ebay tc. Plan on replacing the driver and then eventually rear pulley.
Doesn’t taking that bushing out take away the kart’s ability to idle? I currently have it off and the kart starts moving forward by itself as soon as the engine turns on
@@NubsWithGuns I think it’s because I bought the cheap torque converter off Amazon, gonna have to upgrade it anyways because I’m going over 50mph now which might be an issue considering it’s only rated for low rpm
It should still idle ok but you may get a light lurch forward when the belt is warm but you should easily be able to hold it. A high idle or broken springs in the driver could cause it to not idle or constantly be engaged.
If you haven't noticed that the engine output shaft is too sort to cover the outter piece (it barely has any shaft/keyway to engage it) . I cut a piece of shaft from some other thing I had and welded it to the end of the motor output shaft. You have to cut it the right length (obviously) but I drilled out the threads in order to only use the actual motor output shaft threads (otherwise you risk misaligned threads and having to use a longer threaded bolt (common sense thing). I've been using the bushing and I haven't had a problem like that (that I know of) but my old torque converter is trash and when I replaced it with a new one found out the bushing was missing !?!?? I had the belt twist up on it, is why I replaced it (checking the tolerances showed All kinds of discrepancies). Hopefully you get yours worked out !! 👍🏻
Being a 212 the 3/4 shaft is on par. There are a ton of companies producing 212s with interchangeable parts between the brands so I’m sure they just went with the standard each to source components instead of redesigning the whole engine for a bigger output shaft.
Isn't a necessity to run them..... it doesn't hurt anything, snowmobile clutches which are much bigger than these do NOT run a bushing like that and they aren't known for being belt eaters. So it's a thing that's just there, is it an absolute necessity for them to be there? No. As stated in the video, unless you plan on just letting your engine sit there and idle for hours on end, the chances of wearing a flat spot in your belt is slim to none if you're torque converter is setup properly that is. You shouldn't have any belt drag at idle what so ever, meaning it should not be trying to move your vehicle or spin the wheels at idle, if it does so a bronze bushing isn't the fix your pulley sheath widths are. The only proper way to fine tune your belt to pulleys is one of course proper alignment of the belt to your non moving face of your front pulley buy use of shimming either end, but on a sled you really can't shim the front primary pulleys due to the tapered crankshaft and how they attach to the engine. So it's your secondary pulley that needs to be moved by shims in or out to bring the belt into perfect straightness. As for the belt drag after you've done the alignment part now it's time to check out the belt drag. Weather their wheels or a track, lifted in the air at idle, you should have no movement. Make sure your idle is down at the proper stall speed before engagement and it's time to shim the primary or secondary pulleys. The way I do it usually is via the secondary pulley. It's a bit challenging if you've never taken one apart before, and always remember to mark Everything with a permanent marker first so you know where things like the spring holes are marked before disassembling. Carefully if you have a tool to help you, remember these things are spring loaded and you can easily get hurt not knowing what your doing!!! BUT remove the clip on the secondary and Carefully remove the helix and spring and marking what direction it was torsioned towards and what holes the stock spring was using. Sometimes there's 3 A B & C holes on the pulley or helix side of the spring. This is to adjust the pre-load on the spring to increase or decrease it's pressures depending on how you want the torque converter to shift and when. Remove the outer pulley sheath and by using either Comet shims or something like machine washers from a hardware store you can add a shim or 2 to widen out the secondary pulley. This will allow your belt to drop into the V of the pulley a little more hence lessening the drag on the front clutch the vise versa. You shouldn't really ever require more than one or two shims! Otherwise something else is way off like the distance of your shafts if it's on a plate or not, I've come across crooked machined plates and holes for the secondary bearings! So it's not always a necessity to have to do, but by doing so and paying attention to details like this will help increase the lifespan of the belt and overall clutch system. It's never a bad thing to hit the moving parts like the shaft bushings inside the pulley sheath with a good water proof grease as well as your helix ramps and buttons as long as you're running the cover! If you aren't running the factory cover to keep dust and dirt out than you do not want to use such things which will allow this stuff to stick to it. So users beware, and take everything I say with some common sense beforehand. Thanks and thanks for bringing this to people's attention. No these bushings are not a necessity if not cause more problems as they wear down like what's happened here. It works great on paper, but in the real world they suck! Thanks again brother.
The power rating wouldn’t have anything to do with the clearance between the pulley and the ring. The power rating is in relation to how much power the converter can handle before belt slippage. I had this exact same problem happen on another kart with a 6.5hp predator. The horse power isn’t the issue here.
I'm a little new to the game when it comes to torque converters, what's up with this graphite dry lube everyone is talking about where and how would I apply it? Appreciate all the advice from the mini bike and karting community!
I haven’t used it personally but it looks like it’s a dry lube that bonds to metal pretty well and repels dirt. So you could get why it would beneficial to use on engine/kart applications.
The frame came with the spindle bracket angled like that. I just through the kart together at the time to get it going and was surprised at home much better the steering was with the wheels angled like that compared to my other karts so I left it like that.
I’m not sure what you are trying to say but the torque converter was unmodified and had every component it is supposed to come installed. This is a common failure point for these torque converters. Many people have posted about this same issue.
Yeah it will work fine without the bushing, sometimes it will try to move a little at idle when you’re not on the kart but that is the only difference. I have three of these torque converters and they’re still running strong.
I’m here at this video because the same thing happened to me last night on my mini bike, thank the lord it didn’t lock up but the bearing actually snapped in half and knocked the bolt throwing that pulley loose
i had the crankshaft bolt snap its because its overtightened, tighten it with an impact and tighten it till it does about 2-4 impacts, currently running that and no issues. I replaced my crankshaft and also modified my crankshaft bolt to be stronger by lengthening and annealing it. you wont be able to remove the bolt stuck in the old crankshaft so your only way would be to drill and tap it to an m8 thread
They seem to run the belts way too loose on these units, you dont need that bushing with the belt so loose as its not even contacting the shaft. Your starting off in third gear with that belt so loose. On a snowmobile if you put a straight edge on the top of the belt you want no more than 1 1/4 sag when the belt it pushed on in the center. Looking at these belts I imagine you could almost touch the bottom side of the belt which of course is way too much.
@@Gpgesell1 yes it will but it will tighten far too high on the primary clutch thus starting in a higher gear than optimal, this also creates a lot of heat which destroys both belts and clutches. Think of the bottom of the sheves close the the shaft as first gear and as the belt rides up the sheves farther away from the shaft it shifts up so into 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on. The secondary clutch fights this and controls back shift according to speed and load. Idealy you want the primary to shift to max rpm/hp immediately when you punch the throttle wide open and hold it there, again speed and load. Lots of variables in a cvt.
There is a spacer and some washers that normally come in the kit. The spacer and washer go in the crank shaft behind the pulley so that you can get the alignment right. You can also add washers to the driven pulley side at the sprocket.
Hey I got a question so I installed by torque converter and when I put the bolt on tight I can pull the recoil it gets real tight do you know if there is any fix to that
There’s no reason tightening the crank bolt should make it hard to pull. Something has to be installed incorrectly. You usually need a thick spacer and a washer on the crank before you install the pulleys to keep the pulley from rubbing the mounting bolts, this could be your issue. The large nut that holds the driven pulley shouldn’t be over tightened either. It can put pressure on the bearing and make it hard spin.
The frame came like that and from the pile of parts I got with it it looks like it originally had some angled spindles on it ti flatten the wheel out. One of the spindles where bent and I couldn’t find a replacement so I just left the brackets like they where and went with some normal spindles to get it moving. Turns out the camber works out the camber works out pretty good when drifting it.
I have a 2 Coleman kt196 gokarts with GPS stage 1 kits. Im thinking about swapping them for Tilly 10's like you have. My stage 1 kits will work. In your opinion is it worth the swap? How big is the smile on your face when you mash the pedal?
Yeah any 212 clone or predator exhaust, intake and jet will fit the Tillotson 212. Honestly I wasn’t impressed at first but I swapped the intake, exhaust, rejected it and removed the governor before even starting it and it ended up feeling slower than my predator. Turned out that the jet was still too small for the mods and once I bumped up a few more jet sizes it’s a pretty nasty engine. I’d say it is def worth it. It already comes with automotive style retainers and keepers and the flywheel is rated for high rpms. You’d end up paying more buying a predator and adding retainers and a flywheel and still make less power than for the Tilletson.
That’s up to you really but I don’t use them anymore. Dry lubricant would be a better option and would be less likely to affect the belt. You just have to make sure it’s lubricated often
@@jwsbackyard6413 I am very new to this. What is dry lubricant and are there other available options. Also could that ring be the reason my clutch wasn't disengaging and ripping the belt in half. And yes I do have the right belt and rear clutch.
@@adamhynes296 there are a lot of different types of dry lubricant. A lot of people like graphite lubricant now but they usually print ‘dry lubricant’ on the can so it’s easy to spot. Dry lubricant dries but still leaves a dry film that reduces friction.
@@jwsbackyard6413 so one more thing. Would something like spray lubricant work and where would I put it on the ring? Like would wd40 or lithium grease work?
@@adamhynes296 most dry lubricants do come in a spray but you would lubricate the inside of the ring and I would lubricate the the inside of the driver where it slides over the ring to keep it from catching. Other lubricants could work but with something wet you’re likely going to get it on the belt and surfaces that grab the belt which would make it slip.
I had a 30series Torque Converter fly apart on me at 30mph. Didn't cause a crash, but my brother was riding right next to me and almost got hit with one of the collars that holds the springs in the main pulley. The main bolt sheared several threads off the inside of the crankshaft causing the entire assembly to fly apart. I had to re-tap the crankshaft to put the torque converter back on.
They are 6 inch rims and 8 inches wide. The tires are 12x8.00-6. I don’t have a link but you can just search those sizes on google and some options will pop up. Tires are Maxxis but not sure what brand the wheels are, got a bunch of random rims for cheap a while back, these are just spray painted black.
Hey man I saw your video where you installed the yellow driven spring. Do you have a rule of thumb when picking the garter springs in the driver pulley? Like, do you need to use heavier garter springs when using a heavier driven spring? Great channel 👍
I just run the factory springs in the driver with the heavier driven spring and have had pretty good results. I’ve never changed the springs in the driver so I can’t say if heavier springs would be better or worse.
That’s interesting, I saw a problem with a bushing like that once, and that was only when my drive hub completely shattered. Also the first thing to break on those is the cast iron drive hub for the cvt to slide on.
I just installed pretty much the same one on my kart and I can't get the wheels to spin freely. When I pull start the kart it wants to move the wheels along with it. I dialed the back the idle as far back as it can just in case and still it seems like the tourque converter belt is engaged even when in idle. Have you seen this? Any suggestions? Is it just a bad Torque Converter? Here's mine: ruclips.net/video/MMP0gvC3AOY/видео.html
A high idle could cause it but yours seems alright. The belt could be to small or something may be up with the drive pulley. Make sure it is all the way retracted and not hung on anything making it engage the belt
@@jwsbackyard6413 I dialed the idle all the way back and it wants to spin the tires as soon as I pull the starting cord, so I don’t think it’s an idle issue. I returned this torque converter to Amazon and bought a more expensive one from gopowersports and it’s a little better but still the same issue. It seems like when I tighten down on the driver pulley bolt it is pinching the belt I. That pulley instead of letting it spin freely.
@@JasonLefevers probably fixed or figured this out by now but I had a similar issue with my 30 series clutch and it was the belt. one side is tapered and one side is flat, I believe the flat side goes to the engine. was going to say, turn belt over and try again.
More like 15 but a few others have tried to say this. I’ve actually had this happen 3 times and the other two times where on a stock Predator 212. It’s clearly a clearance issue rather than a power issue.
Out of the box the tillotson had noticeably more torque than my predator 212. I built two drift karts on similar frames but one had the tillotson and the other has the predator with intake, exhaust and ported head. The tillotson has more power than is needed so I’m able to control the drift a lot easier. On the predator kart I have to be full throttle all the time and have less control and flexibility in the drift. The real benefit of the tillotson is the upgraded flywheel and retainers from the factory.
Yeah people keep trying to say that but I had this same thing happen on a stock predator 212 a few months later that I didn’t realize I was still using the bushing on. The clearance of the ring is the issue regardless of power. No matter how much power you have it would not cause this.
Those or any torque converter on a gocart is useless and a waste. A tegular clutch is easier faster simpler and last longer. This is all these r good for. Nobody needs a torque converter on a gocart and they dont even work like 1. They r just a clutch that looks weird and drives a belt. U could take all that excess off put a chain on it and have a regualr clutch. Its like pouring water from 1 bottle in another its the same water u just made it harder to drink
Have you actually ever used one of these? Most of what you said is wildly inaccurate. I have converted almost every basic clutch setup that I have had to a CVT. The issue with a standard clutch is that you are stuck with one gearing ratio so you either have something that takes off fast but has a reduced top speed or you have something that can barely get moving but has great top end speed. If you take the middle ground and go with gearing that has ok torque and ok top speed you are still sacrificing. These CVT offer large amounts of torque for take off and good top end speed.
There’s no real way to install this incorrectly. It’s just poorly clearanced from the manufacturer. I’ve had this happen on two of these converters and have seen multiple posts by other people with the same issue. A wheel locking up on something like a mini bike would definitely be dangerous.
@Skott LeFever What HP would you get with properly jetted Mikuni and a header pipe on a stock 212? Easily 9 if not more than 10. What "stage" is this with the governor gone for the Mikuni install?
@Skott LeFever Actual dynos have proven this. The 212 holds its torque from 2100rpm to 4800rpm. Governer limits throttle at around 3600rpm. Torque x RPM = HP
Having grown up with Fairbanks - Morse torque converters, I'm of the opinion that the Comet 30 series drive clutch is heat generating engineering abomination. I ran one for a month before I installed a Juggernaut and have run the same belt for three years. Belt wear is negligible and maintenance is minimal now.
It should be expected that the belt will last longer with a Juggernaut because of the large difference in gearing. The stock driver works fine with adequate gearing. I've spent three years trying to ruin my cheap belt with more than 30 series Comet spec power and can't do it. The belt has outlasted the jackshaft bearings. Guys have drag raced with the stock driver launching at 4500 plus RPM. They couldn't get anywhere near that with a Juggernaut.
You are suppose to clean and use a tiny bit of oil on the inside of that bushing. It’s just part of doing maintenance on those clutches.
Was flipping threw torque video. And came across this video . HOLY MOTHER OF GOD . I had one of these solid frame go carts when i was a kid . Found it in the trash one morning riding my bike . No engine just frame and wheels /steering bracket , at that time i had road a few go carts that freinds parents bought them from local farm and country stores and harbor freight , but this one was not junk , it also had 4 street slicks like these but all the same size like the front wheels you have . I took apart an old rodo-til buried in my woods for the clutch system and had an old generator with a honda 5.0 liter that the electro was no good . BRO!!!!! When i put those two together and got the chain to match the sprocket and drive shaft . I never -NEVER NEW “ that go -carts where unbelievably fast and the torque that thing put out !!! CRAZY i could max it on my steet and hit the corner full in . And drop the peddle !!! And that bitch would spin those rear tires like a 1000 horse drift car would and i could tokyo drift that cart from curb side to curb side leaving twin tire marks like a snake down my street . I wind up cracking the frame where the front steering would meet the torsion bars that stablized the front end and never got it fixed , a guy saw me with it one day my mom had a yard sale and offered me 300 dollars for it and i sold it to him . He said it was collectable the frames where ? Idk but that was the most fun i ever had as a kid just slidding that thing up and down the street . Im sorry for the long message but this took me to place that was happy 😃 once and had to share it .
I thank you for your post and your cart looks like a hoot! I would respectfully like to offer another idea as to the cause of this issue. Long read but I think you will find its worth it.
The lock up condition the 30 series will do is IMHO increased by a very hot and often worn belt!
If you hit high RPM and top ratio on the TC and remove the drive torque, go into "engine breaking”, this can wedge the belt in the non conical bottom of the driven pulley and you skid to a stop!
When you have the tension go away on the top of the belt (not under power) and tension moves to the bottom of the belt because the back wheels are now turning the engine. This will suck the belt deeper into the non conical portion of the secondary pulley, where it can get caught, as we know! Just in the same way a rope tightens around a capstan winch. This problem is increased with a belt that is too narrow from wear.
The perfect condition for this lock up to happen? Go climb a 1/4 mile of road at full throttle where you can only reach 50% of top speed because of the climb. Turn around at the top all heated up and come down hill over speed, then come off the power. This will snag a worn hot belt a large percentage of the time! This will happen regardless of the condition of the driver pulley assembly. As long as it has the ability to bring the belt right up to its largest possible driver diameter!
This can happen even with a new belt however far less common.
I give this as an example because I do it often going to my mailbox on one of my 2 minibikes. I have had this lockup happen no less then 10 times over the years. I tired of shitting myself and have since changed final drive ratio by going from a 45 tooth to a 60. Belts last at least 5 times longer before they start to do the suicide breaking thing lol. The bikes lost very little top speed and are much more fun on the up and down trails witch were eating belts.
These belts entirely edge wear and get narrower and can do so in a hour with 10HP.
Next time someone has this condition happen I encourage you to observe that the belt will be stuck in the secondary pulley independent of the driver pulley. You can even cut the belt top and bottom and the segment in the secondary will still be stuck! This is completely because the belt gets too deep in the non conical portion of the driven pulley while hot, rapidly cools from the reduction of drive forces (going down hill) and snags and tries to wind tightly. The pulley and belt bite and bind because the pulley is opened fully to limit with a belt as a wedge.
The drag forces inputing to these systems are not managed well and less so with a out of spec belt! If you were able to ask the engineers at Comet I think they would agree that this is an issue of the secondary pulley driving (engine breaking) an out of spec belt. As well offshore cloners not getting a lot of the details into there products!
Best advice to avoid this, keep a fresh belt on. When these belts wear they run deeper into the secondary pulley where they get caught. Also increase final axle sprocket size some if your geared tall, this will greatly reduce belt heat and premature wear. When down hilling don't over speed this will help keep the belt out of the danger zone.
Enjoy
Ok let's be real.... Who really read that besides him probably 💀
Thank you for posting this.
Accurately and concisely put into words. Exemplary use of examples. Here is advice well worth the taking and reason enough to do so. Thanx!
Thank you, I'm having that exact problem
Thanks for posting this. The one I purchased; I see the issue already. The inside and outside diameter are okay. The Width is the issue. It needs to be at least 3/8's of an inch longer.
I just got my eBay kit today and it’s the same, needs an extra 3/8 to not be moving all over. You can go to your local plumbing or hardware store and get either 3/4 or 1 inch copper pipe and be able to cut your own bushings.
Those bushings r crazy. They expand n contrast. Magic
Thanks for sharing this! This is important especially for those using a 30 series on their mini bike!
God damn bro was burning rubber in grass
Thanks for your help, mine would not engage now I see why 👍
Thank you I ran a belt that I shouldn’t have and it was slightly thinner waiting for the new ones in the mail and noticed that there was west from the bushing being moved and not having the belt fully on it and wear across the line of the center of the belt shifting I’m putting the correct belts on and removing this messed up bushing
Thank you for this video. I was putting a torque converter on my engine yesterday and noticed they sent me just a washer to keep the belt inline. They didn't even send me that cooper sleeve. Guess they realize it's not important as well.
Thats pretty darn interesting that bushing can do that. I had a similar thing happen to me i .had my torque converter clutch lock up like that before on my minibike. Mine was caused by that little splined piece that the pully sheaves move on. It had build up and wouldn't let the sheave retract when fully locked up. Cleaned and it worked good. Ill definently remember to keep a eye on the bushing as well
I just got a manco dingo, and whoever owned it before had the clutch backwards, obviously that's a terrible idea, all of its insides exploded and nearly nailed me in the face 🙃
Yes this is most likely the cause, the bushing should never catch. It is that splined shaft catching on you clutch bell.
Great video man. I'm definitely taking that bushing out of my minibike tc before I ride next time. Also, my tc is getting stick and not releasing. Assuming it needs to be cleaned. What's the best way to do this? Compressed air? Also what needs to be lubricated on the tc?
The best way to clean it is to take it apart and just use some parts cleaner. The driver is very easy to take apart but the driven pulley is a bit harder and you could probably get by with just spraying parts cleaner down in it. The main things that need lubrication are the brass bushing if you are using it, the inner sleeve that the driver slides on that’s shaped like a cross and the shaft the driven side slides on when expanding. I’d use some type of dry lube or no sling product so it doesn’t get on the friction surfaces of the converter and cause slipping.
@jwsbackyard6413 VERY helpful comment!! Thank you for the insight, my good man!
I just had my bike lock up on me the other day during my ride and after taking the driver out I was able to see that the brass bushing got caught just like that and wouldn’t let the back wheel move. I know at higher speeds that bushing moves around and makes noise so it seems like a two for one for me to just get rid of that
Yeah I’ve seen this happen many times but there are always those people that don’t believe it. They can def be dangerous.
My bearings on the rear system went out. That's my job today is installing bearings on my ebay tc. Plan on replacing the driver and then eventually rear pulley.
Doesn’t taking that bushing out take away the kart’s ability to idle? I currently have it off and the kart starts moving forward by itself as soon as the engine turns on
Then you have something else wrong.
Ever notice that you don't see that bushing on every brand?
@@NubsWithGuns I think it’s because I bought the cheap torque converter off Amazon, gonna have to upgrade it anyways because I’m going over 50mph now which might be an issue considering it’s only rated for low rpm
It should still idle ok but you may get a light lurch forward when the belt is warm but you should easily be able to hold it. A high idle or broken springs in the driver could cause it to not idle or constantly be engaged.
Upgrade the clutch to a comet and put lighter weights. Will help with response and will prevent it from doing what happened here!
If you haven't noticed that the engine output shaft is too sort to cover the outter piece (it barely has any shaft/keyway to engage it) .
I cut a piece of shaft from some other thing I had and welded it to the end of the motor output shaft.
You have to cut it the right length (obviously) but I drilled out the threads in order to only use the actual motor output shaft threads (otherwise you risk misaligned threads and having to use a longer threaded bolt (common sense thing).
I've been using the bushing and I haven't had a problem like that (that I know of) but my old torque converter is trash and when I replaced it with a new one found out the bushing was missing !?!??
I had the belt twist up on it, is why I replaced it (checking the tolerances showed All kinds of discrepancies).
Hopefully you get yours worked out !! 👍🏻
Those engines seems to carry the 3/4 shaft (odd for a 10hp) therefore can't use the 40 series TC.
Being a 212 the 3/4 shaft is on par. There are a ton of companies producing 212s with interchangeable parts between the brands so I’m sure they just went with the standard each to source components instead of redesigning the whole engine for a bigger output shaft.
Isn't a necessity to run them..... it doesn't hurt anything, snowmobile clutches which are much bigger than these do NOT run a bushing like that and they aren't known for being belt eaters. So it's a thing that's just there, is it an absolute necessity for them to be there? No. As stated in the video, unless you plan on just letting your engine sit there and idle for hours on end, the chances of wearing a flat spot in your belt is slim to none if you're torque converter is setup properly that is. You shouldn't have any belt drag at idle what so ever, meaning it should not be trying to move your vehicle or spin the wheels at idle, if it does so a bronze bushing isn't the fix your pulley sheath widths are. The only proper way to fine tune your belt to pulleys is one of course proper alignment of the belt to your non moving face of your front pulley buy use of shimming either end, but on a sled you really can't shim the front primary pulleys due to the tapered crankshaft and how they attach to the engine. So it's your secondary pulley that needs to be moved by shims in or out to bring the belt into perfect straightness. As for the belt drag after you've done the alignment part now it's time to check out the belt drag. Weather their wheels or a track, lifted in the air at idle, you should have no movement. Make sure your idle is down at the proper stall speed before engagement and it's time to shim the primary or secondary pulleys. The way I do it usually is via the secondary pulley. It's a bit challenging if you've never taken one apart before, and always remember to mark Everything with a permanent marker first so you know where things like the spring holes are marked before disassembling. Carefully if you have a tool to help you, remember these things are spring loaded and you can easily get hurt not knowing what your doing!!! BUT remove the clip on the secondary and Carefully remove the helix and spring and marking what direction it was torsioned towards and what holes the stock spring was using. Sometimes there's 3 A B & C holes on the pulley or helix side of the spring. This is to adjust the pre-load on the spring to increase or decrease it's pressures depending on how you want the torque converter to shift and when. Remove the outer pulley sheath and by using either Comet shims or something like machine washers from a hardware store you can add a shim or 2 to widen out the secondary pulley. This will allow your belt to drop into the V of the pulley a little more hence lessening the drag on the front clutch the vise versa. You shouldn't really ever require more than one or two shims! Otherwise something else is way off like the distance of your shafts if it's on a plate or not, I've come across crooked machined plates and holes for the secondary bearings! So it's not always a necessity to have to do, but by doing so and paying attention to details like this will help increase the lifespan of the belt and overall clutch system. It's never a bad thing to hit the moving parts like the shaft bushings inside the pulley sheath with a good water proof grease as well as your helix ramps and buttons as long as you're running the cover! If you aren't running the factory cover to keep dust and dirt out than you do not want to use such things which will allow this stuff to stick to it. So users beware, and take everything I say with some common sense beforehand. Thanks and thanks for bringing this to people's attention. No these bushings are not a necessity if not cause more problems as they wear down like what's happened here. It works great on paper, but in the real world they suck! Thanks again brother.
I ran into the same thing on my mb 200. Spaced out the pulley halves on the driven unit with washers- works great!
30 series is too small for a 10hp motor. not a dangerous flaw more like user error
The power rating wouldn’t have anything to do with the clearance between the pulley and the ring. The power rating is in relation to how much power the converter can handle before belt slippage. I had this exact same problem happen on another kart with a 6.5hp predator. The horse power isn’t the issue here.
Really Ya think?
Cuz mine is rated for 11.
@@jwsbackyard6413 the 30 series tops out at 5500 rpm.
@@Naferner_Said max rpm on this engine is 5200-5300
@@Naferner_SaidYou continue to make no sense and give nothing to support your incorrect claim.
I'm a little new to the game when it comes to torque converters, what's up with this graphite dry lube everyone is talking about where and how would I apply it? Appreciate all the advice from the mini bike and karting community!
I haven’t used it personally but it looks like it’s a dry lube that bonds to metal pretty well and repels dirt. So you could get why it would beneficial to use on engine/kart applications.
Look at the parts store or wallmart
used in padlock applications as a dry lube
Why so much castor on the front end? Looks really odd with the wheels leaning in like that.
The frame came with the spindle bracket angled like that. I just through the kart together at the time to get it going and was surprised at home much better the steering was with the wheels angled like that compared to my other karts so I left it like that.
How is it a flaw because you decided to take apart out that's supposed to be there?
I’m not sure what you are trying to say but the torque converter was unmodified and had every component it is supposed to come installed. This is a common failure point for these torque converters. Many people have posted about this same issue.
@@jwsbackyard6413 you said you always leave out the brass bushing! Therefore you removed it. Does that make sense?
It was obviously left in this one. I usually leave it out but had left it in this one to give it another try.
Just today my mini bike got locked up and couldn't figure out till I saw this video it's 1:24 AM and I am going outside to check it out.
If it’s not the bushing the garter springs on the driver can also break causing it to not be able to release the belt.
So if I don’t instal the bushing it should work fine? I have heard they grenade frequently. Thank you for sharing
Yeah it will work fine without the bushing, sometimes it will try to move a little at idle when you’re not on the kart but that is the only difference. I have three of these torque converters and they’re still running strong.
@@jwsbackyard6413 good to know. Thank you sir!
Wow that's scary,,I will take your word for it,,if that happens on a motorized bycicle it could lock up without warning,and get somebody killed.
I’m here at this video because the same thing happened to me last night on my mini bike, thank the lord it didn’t lock up but the bearing actually snapped in half and knocked the bolt throwing that pulley loose
I need that bushing I think bc my doodle bug with a 212 and it keeps pulling itself like I’m driving
Yeah that’s what it’s supposed to do is prevent that pulling. I’d maybe try to lower the idle speed if you want to try it without the bushing.
Also need to know what size the cover bolts are so this don't happen again and I gotta get the snapped bolt outa the driveshaft 😢
The bolt is a 5/16-24. I usually go with a 2 inch long bolt and lock tight if you’re having issues with it backing out.
i had the crankshaft bolt snap its because its overtightened, tighten it with an impact and tighten it till it does about 2-4 impacts, currently running that and no issues. I replaced my crankshaft and also modified my crankshaft bolt to be stronger by lengthening and annealing it. you wont be able to remove the bolt stuck in the old crankshaft so your only way would be to drill and tap it to an m8 thread
I had this same issue i have taken that out ever since
That's interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks for sharing !
Imma gonna pass your video around...
They seem to run the belts way too loose on these units, you dont need that bushing with the belt so loose as its not even contacting the shaft.
Your starting off in third gear with that belt so loose. On a snowmobile if you put a straight edge on the top of the belt you want no more than 1 1/4 sag when the belt it pushed on in the center. Looking at these belts I imagine you could almost touch the bottom side of the belt which of course is way too much.
The belt will tighten the moment the rpms rise
@@Gpgesell1 yes it will but it will tighten far too high on the primary clutch thus starting in a higher gear than optimal, this also creates a lot of heat which destroys both belts and clutches.
Think of the bottom of the sheves close the the shaft as first gear and as the belt rides up the sheves farther away from the shaft it shifts up so into 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on. The secondary clutch fights this and controls back shift according to speed and load.
Idealy you want the primary to shift to max rpm/hp immediately when you punch the throttle wide open and hold it there, again speed and load. Lots of variables in a cvt.
Man, I have never heard of this and I'm in the middle of putting one on my mini bike.
Yeah the converter will be fine. The brass bushing just has the potential for causing a failure.
@@jwsbackyard6413 I'm mostly worried about my back wheel locking up!
Yeah just get rid of that brass bushing and you should be good.
@@jwsbackyard6413 Graphite dry lube. Its a replaceable part
What do about my torque converter that is unaligned
There is a spacer and some washers that normally come in the kit. The spacer and washer go in the crank shaft behind the pulley so that you can get the alignment right. You can also add washers to the driven pulley side at the sprocket.
that happened to me twice, the wheel on my minibike locked up at 40mph. I took off the pully and the brass bearing was gone, must of broke off lol.
Probably cus you're doing 40 mph with a torque converter meant for lower HP/speed engines
@@RandomPerson-ob1hk still works fine to this day, only downside is belt wear but its whatever.
@@LogixChannel lmao don't die out there
@@RandomPerson-ob1hk I'll try not to lol
Hey I got a question so I installed by torque converter and when I put the bolt on tight I can pull the recoil it gets real tight do you know if there is any fix to that
There’s no reason tightening the crank bolt should make it hard to pull. Something has to be installed incorrectly. You usually need a thick spacer and a washer on the crank before you install the pulleys to keep the pulley from rubbing the mounting bolts, this could be your issue. The large nut that holds the driven pulley shouldn’t be over tightened either. It can put pressure on the bearing and make it hard spin.
@@jwsbackyard6413 ok I didn’t have a spacer that was the problem thank you
How do you keep the bolt tight mine keeps backing out
I’d make sure you have a long enough bolt to have a decent amount of threads engaged and at a little thread locker to it.
Why does your kart have so much negative camber? Just curious.
The frame came like that and from the pile of parts I got with it it looks like it originally had some angled spindles on it ti flatten the wheel out. One of the spindles where bent and I couldn’t find a replacement so I just left the brackets like they where and went with some normal spindles to get it moving. Turns out the camber works out the camber works out pretty good when drifting it.
@@jwsbackyard6413 you turned it into a fun toy for sure!!
Looks like the bushing is to big for the drive mine fits snugly and doesn't have slop they sent you a 40 series bushing probably
I have a 2 Coleman kt196 gokarts with GPS stage 1 kits. Im thinking about swapping them for Tilly 10's like you have. My stage 1 kits will work. In your opinion is it worth the swap? How big is the smile on your face when you mash the pedal?
Yeah any 212 clone or predator exhaust, intake and jet will fit the Tillotson 212. Honestly I wasn’t impressed at first but I swapped the intake, exhaust, rejected it and removed the governor before even starting it and it ended up feeling slower than my predator. Turned out that the jet was still too small for the mods and once I bumped up a few more jet sizes it’s a pretty nasty engine. I’d say it is def worth it. It already comes with automotive style retainers and keepers and the flywheel is rated for high rpms. You’d end up paying more buying a predator and adding retainers and a flywheel and still make less power than for the Tilletson.
If you are not going to build your 196 a Ducar, Tillotson, or Wildcat is the way to go.
So should i use this ring? Would oil do anything
That’s up to you really but I don’t use them anymore. Dry lubricant would be a better option and would be less likely to affect the belt. You just have to make sure it’s lubricated often
@@jwsbackyard6413 I am very new to this. What is dry lubricant and are there other available options. Also could that ring be the reason my clutch wasn't disengaging and ripping the belt in half. And yes I do have the right belt and rear clutch.
@@adamhynes296 there are a lot of different types of dry lubricant. A lot of people like graphite lubricant now but they usually print ‘dry lubricant’ on the can so it’s easy to spot. Dry lubricant dries but still leaves a dry film that reduces friction.
@@jwsbackyard6413 so one more thing. Would something like spray lubricant work and where would I put it on the ring? Like would wd40 or lithium grease work?
@@adamhynes296 most dry lubricants do come in a spray but you would lubricate the inside of the ring and I would lubricate the the inside of the driver where it slides over the ring to keep it from catching. Other lubricants could work but with something wet you’re likely going to get it on the belt and surfaces that grab the belt which would make it slip.
Have you had anything fly apart dangerously on one of these?
No, even if there was a failure inside the driver it’s still contained within the clam shell and can escape without taking the bolt securing it out.
I had a 30series Torque Converter fly apart on me at 30mph. Didn't cause a crash, but my brother was riding right next to me and almost got hit with one of the collars that holds the springs in the main pulley. The main bolt sheared several threads off the inside of the crankshaft causing the entire assembly to fly apart. I had to re-tap the crankshaft to put the torque converter back on.
What size wheels are those? And where I can find them online?
They are 6 inch rims and 8 inches wide. The tires are 12x8.00-6. I don’t have a link but you can just search those sizes on google and some options will pop up. Tires are Maxxis but not sure what brand the wheels are, got a bunch of random rims for cheap a while back, these are just spray painted black.
Did you put dry lube on it?????
Yes, it still bit into the bushing at least a millimeter or so
So DONT use that cooper looking piece?
That’s correct
Hey man I saw your video where you installed the yellow driven spring. Do you have a rule of thumb when picking the garter springs in the driver pulley? Like, do you need to use heavier garter springs when using a heavier driven spring? Great channel 👍
I just run the factory springs in the driver with the heavier driven spring and have had pretty good results. I’ve never changed the springs in the driver so I can’t say if heavier springs would be better or worse.
Use two ball bearings instead of the bushing.
That’s interesting, I saw a problem with a bushing like that once, and that was only when my drive hub completely shattered. Also the first thing to break on those is the cast iron drive hub for the cvt to slide on.
Did the bolt break off inside the shaft?
No, bolts were alright, just the sleeve sticking inside the pulley
My bolt keeps breaking is this the cause
My screw won’t stay it and always flys off
Use a longer bolt or put some thread locker on it
@@jwsbackyard6413 okay thank you very much
I just installed pretty much the same one on my kart and I can't get the wheels to spin freely. When I pull start the kart it wants to move the wheels along with it. I dialed the back the idle as far back as it can just in case and still it seems like the tourque converter belt is engaged even when in idle. Have you seen this? Any suggestions? Is it just a bad Torque Converter?
Here's mine: ruclips.net/video/MMP0gvC3AOY/видео.html
A high idle could cause it but yours seems alright. The belt could be to small or something may be up with the drive pulley. Make sure it is all the way retracted and not hung on anything making it engage the belt
@@jwsbackyard6413 I dialed the idle all the way back and it wants to spin the tires as soon as I pull the starting cord, so I don’t think it’s an idle issue. I returned this torque converter to Amazon and bought a more expensive one from gopowersports and it’s a little better but still the same issue. It seems like when I tighten down on the driver pulley bolt it is pinching the belt I. That pulley instead of letting it spin freely.
@@JasonLefevers probably fixed or figured this out by now but I had a similar issue with my 30 series clutch and it was the belt. one side is tapered and one side is flat, I believe the flat side goes to the engine. was going to say, turn belt over and try again.
Could also be your pulley alignment, be sure it is even with shims or else you'll eat through belts daily.
Get the one with the bearing instead of bushing....
It's almost like a clutch rated for 6.5 hp won't hold up to 10 hp 😱
More like 15 but a few others have tried to say this. I’ve actually had this happen 3 times and the other two times where on a stock Predator 212. It’s clearly a clearance issue rather than a power issue.
Those Tillotson 10hp engines don’t make 10 hp, they make 7hp same as predator stock they’ve been dyno tested by red beard
Out of the box the tillotson had noticeably more torque than my predator 212. I built two drift karts on similar frames but one had the tillotson and the other has the predator with intake, exhaust and ported head. The tillotson has more power than is needed so I’m able to control the drift a lot easier. On the predator kart I have to be full throttle all the time and have less control and flexibility in the drift. The real benefit of the tillotson is the upgraded flywheel and retainers from the factory.
Mine came with a washer right there
Usually the washer goes behind the backing plate to space the pulleys for correct alignment
The bushing is meant to be Lubricated. A little WD-40.
absolutely not. if anything is used it should be dry lube
@@pwn3426 You don't put dry lube on a bushing. They get a couple drops of oil.
@@Deucealive75 Hrmm thats weird comet themselves agrees with what i stated previously. NO WET LUBE. P E R I O D !
@@pwn3426 That's fine. The maintenance that I do on both of my stock driver's has worked fine for years without issues.
Because they are not meant for 10hp
Yeah people keep trying to say that but I had this same thing happen on a stock predator 212 a few months later that I didn’t realize I was still using the bushing on. The clearance of the ring is the issue regardless of power. No matter how much power you have it would not cause this.
Mine locked up on my mini bike today and flug and my leg at 55 now it's swollen asf and hurts like a bitch
So these things are another problem.
The only two common problems I’ve had with these is the brass bushing getting hung and the end of the garter springs breaking.
I thought the ring of death was for the Xbox 360
Common misconception. This was the original ring of death. Xbox stole the idea.
Those or any torque converter on a gocart is useless and a waste. A tegular clutch is easier faster simpler and last longer. This is all these r good for. Nobody needs a torque converter on a gocart and they dont even work like 1. They r just a clutch that looks weird and drives a belt. U could take all that excess off put a chain on it and have a regualr clutch. Its like pouring water from 1 bottle in another its the same water u just made it harder to drink
Have you actually ever used one of these? Most of what you said is wildly inaccurate. I have converted almost every basic clutch setup that I have had to a CVT. The issue with a standard clutch is that you are stuck with one gearing ratio so you either have something that takes off fast but has a reduced top speed or you have something that can barely get moving but has great top end speed. If you take the middle ground and go with gearing that has ok torque and ok top speed you are still sacrificing. These CVT offer large amounts of torque for take off and good top end speed.
Your 1 of the please wear a helmet kids?
my mama loves only me
Good for you
Those converters have a 3600 rpm max rating
Not a flaw and its supposed to be there.
There’s no real way to install this incorrectly. It’s just poorly clearanced from the manufacturer. I’ve had this happen on two of these converters and have seen multiple posts by other people with the same issue. A wheel locking up on something like a mini bike would definitely be dangerous.
@@jwsbackyard6413 More likely the bushing was worn out I would think.
That is a part that needs looking at regularly.
A bone stock predator with gov bypassed or removed makes between 9 and 11hp..
@Skott LeFever What HP would you get with properly jetted Mikuni and a header pipe on a stock 212? Easily 9 if not more than 10. What "stage" is this with the governor gone for the Mikuni install?
@Skott LeFever Actual dynos have proven this. The 212 holds its torque from 2100rpm to 4800rpm. Governer limits throttle at around 3600rpm. Torque x RPM = HP
No way a bone stock 212 gets 9-11HP. You need at least a stage 1 kit for that.
Having grown up with Fairbanks - Morse torque converters, I'm of the opinion that the Comet 30 series drive clutch is heat generating engineering abomination. I ran one for a month before I installed a Juggernaut and have run the same belt for three years. Belt wear is negligible and maintenance is minimal now.
It should be expected that the belt will last longer with a Juggernaut because of the large difference in gearing. The stock driver works fine with adequate gearing. I've spent three years trying to ruin my cheap belt with more than 30 series Comet spec power and can't do it. The belt has outlasted the jackshaft bearings.
Guys have drag raced with the stock driver launching at 4500 plus RPM. They couldn't get anywhere near that with a Juggernaut.