As a Rallye Co-Driver I have to thank you for the shout out to "us". Thank you leg!! (Btw, besides the pacenotes, we will have to take care of the time sheets, read the road book on the road sections and most of the times control the drivers effing egos too)
And wipe their feet on rainy days so their precious pedals stay dry, and think of an excuse why it's our fault we crashed cause they waved at the crowd and to be the one that has to get out and push when he overshot the junction and you've ended up axel deep in cow slurry at Down Ampney AGAIN
Yes, except that Gran Turismo often gets the gear wrong. It's a good system. But, add a half of a gear. Also, 1-7 is just the same with extra detail. 1-9 if you want to avoid + and - as much as possible
A good many years back I saw on tv a driver in the RAC rally lose all his lights on a night forest stage , driver and codriver managed to only lose a handful of seconds whilst driving on pace notes only. Blew me away and I've always had the greatest respect for the rally driver/codriver combo.
As a drummer, I really like that analogy. Having to continually force a pack of legally drunk guitarists to stay on time while they garnered all the attention was my job. But I loved it
I'd say a better analogy is that co-drivers are the bassists of motorsport. On the surface an insignificant instrument, but once the band is without it they sound terrible. Love the video
Burnsie & Robert Reid actually had one of the most complex pace note systems back in the day. The amount of detail he could digest whilst driving is mind-blowing. I have been in the same boat as you for a long time, ever since Richard and Colin weren't in the sport it has failed to grab my attention anywhere near as much and especially once Gronholm was gone, there was no one to challenge Loeb properly for years.
Burns and Reid actually have a simpler pace note than current drivers. For complexity wise, Kris Meeke and Paul Nagle's pace note is by far the most complex
@@AidanMillward Yea in the early to mid 90s when Burns was still young and they were both at Subaru, he went along with McRae to experience it all. It's crazy how the media portrayed them as like arch nemesis in 2001 when it was the complete opposite in reality.
there was a wonderful song in Russian jazz/Blues-&-Roll where the chorus & about a fifth more was done in rally-notes short-hand... it was about a guy, who was a privateer in an old Moskvitch-310, and never could keep pace with the "Lords in the Subaru" which annoyed him, but he was still happy because spring, winter summer or autumn, he was racing, and the guy back at the garage was a great friend to have.
In France and other francophone countries we use corner degree instead of the numbers, which I feel is a much more accurate system because it is an objective method to determine corner severity
know what, that "drummers of motorsport" is a perfect analogy. they literally lay the foundation and beat of a given stage. i guess the driver would be a vocalist that is also playing lead guitar, they take in the information and cues from the drummer to know when the next tempo change is, if youre about to come to the bridge of the song that is immediately followed by a repeat of verse one, then hit the break down into chorus 3........i NEVER put that together on my own, and it took you saying it for it to get me to actually realize that lmao
Growing up in Indianapolis in the 60's I watched the change from Front to Rear engine. Jackie Stewart, Mansel, Emerson, and Mario have explained set up on an oval, most of which broadcast during the 500. I learned something from this show! Doing a great job Aidan!
For WRC they are given pace notes by the Rally organisers and then they use these to adapt during the recce. they also film this and carry on working on the notes after they have left the car and the stage. Haden's system is widely used to help assess the corners during the recce.
Ive still got the pace notes from when i drove my brothers wrx on the Highlands rally. I actually keep it near and dear to me cuz my brother was my codriver, not only was it his car but he was right there with me reading off the notes doing the maths along the route. All while he was baked out of his mind.
This was very,very interesting. I had always just assumed they had a printed track map with notes for the key features. Illuminating video, well done sir.
Glad you mentioned the different scales employees by different countries. I had a rude awakening when I purchased a licenced WRX game and it used the opposite numbering to the codemasters developed games. BANG straight into a tree first corner!
Interesting fact of the best co-drivers: they use the pitch of their voice to indicate things such as severity of the cornet, danger or to encourage. Jonne Halttunen, Kalle Rovanperä's co-driver is a good example of this. Other drivers, namely Toni Gardemeister, will use encouragements to go over blind crests etc. Things like "don't lift" or "believe" freely translated are examples of this. Co-drivers also mark changes to pacenotes during the stages for a possible rerun or reuse next year.
There's a good discussion in Hayden Paddons book about pace notes; his codriver John Kennard mentions modern WRC cars going so damn fast that the codriver isn't actually processing what he is saying; he is just conditioned to say what he reads without even thinking about it.
Another great video Aidan. I used to play rally games & I can remember that one of them used the 1 = tight & 6 = fast system while another was the reverse .... talk about confusing & worse still I have a feeling they were the same series (possibly WRC & WRC2 on PS2).
And they read the notes with their seat as low as possible so they barely see over the dash. The lower seat is to lower the center of balance as much as possible. Reading notes in a car that is bouncing all over the place. You have to know exactly where you are so your notes are accurate and timely. Some drivers will even call out updates to the notes that the co-driver will have to annotate while still calling out the next turn, at full race speed. I’ve seen Sebastian Lobe do this a couple of times. This way the next year when they come back to that course the notes are close to what they need. Side note. The Toyota Prerunner is named for a truck that pre runs a rally stage to get the notes needed for a rally driver, hence Prerunner.
Back in the 80’s group b days and before the Lomabard RAC rally was known as blind rally with no recce or pacenotes,the co driver had a map and illuminated magnifying glass and road book describing the route, the route not being made public until just before the rally
I recall that old episode of Top Gear, when James May tried to read out the pace notes for Kris Meeke. James was all over the place and rather flustered. Certainly not just “sit there and read”, requires teamwork and confidence in each other of the highest order.
I do miss being in the hot seat of the Lada. In that old girl everything was flat as we never got it fast enough to warrant worrying about corners or braking.
Im always interested in the rally co drivers when they reading up the pacenotes. I mean just hearing them in a game is mad. Compared to a flightsim where the ATC is telling you where or how to taxi to or from a runway, I always end up asking myself "How do the real people get all that in one go?"
They just know. It’s all a standardised code. Pilots read back exactly what the ATC has told them as a way of saying they understood. They don’t just say “Roger”. “KLM flight 67, turn right head 0-4-4, climb and descend flight level 100, slow to 200kts” “Turn right heading 0-4-4, descend and maintain flight level 100, slow to 200kts- KLM 67”
I have always heard the lower numbers being sharp corners. I always assumed it was the recommended gear or something. Then again, I’ve never seen or heard real pace notices, just the rally stages from the old V8 Supercars game and Colin McRae 04.
4:53 Another system I've seen is the one Elfyn Evans currently uses in WRC where 1 is fastest and 9 is slowest - which is interesting. Before that I only ever knew 1 to 6, with 6 being the fastest
It's also not uncommon to do recce in a rental car (at national level) in New Zealand, as competitors might travel quite a long way and can't justify bringing an extra car just for recce. They get a rental for driving round and do recce in it too
In all honesty i never really got the hang Of the pace notes. I know most notes but while Racing in for example dirt rally 2.0 i can never keep up with the Pacenotes. Either im too slow and i get the notes from 2-3 corners ahead or im getting confused with the old corners
Only ones I can think of that would even be close to rallying in the U.S. would be the Pikes Peak hill climb in Colorado. But as far as I'm aware there aren't and haven't been any WRC events in the U.S. for as long as I can think of. But I could be totally wrong and just not be aware of them. There is of courts Rally-Cross in the U.S. but it's not even close to the same thing, other than perhaps the cars the drive.
I watched an interview with a retired WRC co-driver recently where he said that just briefly looking up at the road would let him find the right spot, but that often he would just feel how the road is going with his arse to find the right spot in the notes.
The RBR's default "easy left, fast right" system is my favor, and most easily disgust one for me, even as my mother tone is not English. "5 left, 4 right" is accept for me, but if it's "left 5, right 4", my brain just won't able to handle it on fly and I'll crash badly.
2:39 .......dammit....tricked again. PS co-drivers are like drummers in a band. They decide the beat (notes) the rest will have to follow otherwise it will end up in a mess
I was a Burns fan, too. Admired Colin McRae's sheer guts, and Petter Solberg's sheer ability, but Burns was special. Lost interest around the time Seb Loeb began running the table, and Seb Ogier didn't make me want to watch, either
"Co-drivers are the drummers of motor sport" I better fucking hope not, only reaching peak performance while insanely drunk is not a good trait for a rally (co) driver
(09:10) “[Co-drivers] are the drummers of motorsport.“ At least drummers perform at stage level, or sometimes on a stage riser; on the other hand, co-drivers are intentionally humiliated by necessarily being seated on low seats that barely give them a view out the car. _Shameful._
Never thought I'd be Rick Rolled in a Rally Pace Notes Video... well done sir...
02:37 i scrolled back immediately because my spidy senses were tingling.
took the words out of my mouth
Yeah, that was a dastardly trick.
When?
I seriously had no idea
"Samir, LISTEN TO MY CALLS!"
TRIPLE CAUTION STAY CENTRE!
What if I told you: you can have that guy as a voice pack in Richard Burns rally?
How do notes for "YOU'RE BREAKING THE CAR" look like?
"Roses are Red, Violets are Blue, Left-Five over Crest, tightens into Two"
Don't Cut
As a Rallye Co-Driver I have to thank you for the shout out to "us". Thank you leg!!
(Btw, besides the pacenotes, we will have to take care of the time sheets, read the road book on the road sections and most of the times control the drivers effing egos too)
And wipe their feet on rainy days so their precious pedals stay dry, and think of an excuse why it's our fault we crashed cause they waved at the crowd and to be the one that has to get out and push when he overshot the junction and you've ended up axel deep in cow slurry at Down Ampney AGAIN
@@TonyMorel dude that was very specific, are you alright?
Walter Röhrl on his copilot organizing everything for him: ruclips.net/video/GIPEpWenphk/видео.html
@@TonyMorel ruclips.net/video/D9-voINFkCg/видео.html
You are breaking the car Samir!!!
I always preferred the 6-1 method because I’m familiar with it from Gran Turismo 3 with what gear I should be in.
Yes, except that Gran Turismo often gets the gear wrong.
It's a good system. But, add a half of a gear.
Also, 1-7 is just the same with extra detail. 1-9 if you want to avoid + and - as much as possible
Yes, I'm more familiar with the 6-1 way of doing it.
A good many years back I saw on tv a driver in the RAC rally lose all his lights on a night forest stage , driver and codriver managed to only lose a handful of seconds whilst driving on pace notes only. Blew me away and I've always had the greatest respect for the rally driver/codriver combo.
"Rally co-drivers: They are the drummers of motorsport."
Actually, as a musician, I think that is the _perfect_ analogy to describe them.
Then, who'd the bassmen be?
As a drummer, I really like that analogy. Having to continually force a pack of legally drunk guitarists to stay on time while they garnered all the attention was my job. But I loved it
@@EddieOtool Track Marshalls. they're also very important
@@TheKincognito You deserve a star in your notebook, sir. They're truly the unsung heroes, I have been told.
@@danbradley7176 I played better drunk.
2:34 - I literally flipped off my laptop, said "Fuck you!"... and immediately liked the video.
Well. Freaking. Played.
I'd say a better analogy is that co-drivers are the bassists of motorsport.
On the surface an insignificant instrument, but once the band is without it they sound terrible.
Love the video
Burnsie & Robert Reid actually had one of the most complex pace note systems back in the day. The amount of detail he could digest whilst driving is mind-blowing. I have been in the same boat as you for a long time, ever since Richard and Colin weren't in the sport it has failed to grab my attention anywhere near as much and especially once Gronholm was gone, there was no one to challenge Loeb properly for years.
Burnsie did McRae’s gravel notes for him if I remember rightly.
Burns and Reid actually have a simpler pace note than current drivers. For complexity wise, Kris Meeke and Paul Nagle's pace note is by far the most complex
@@AidanMillward Yea in the early to mid 90s when Burns was still young and they were both at Subaru, he went along with McRae to experience it all.
It's crazy how the media portrayed them as like arch nemesis in 2001 when it was the complete opposite in reality.
You've got me hooked by showing the Ford right off the bat
there was a wonderful song in Russian jazz/Blues-&-Roll where the chorus & about a fifth more was done in rally-notes short-hand...
it was about a guy, who was a privateer in an old Moskvitch-310, and never could keep pace with the "Lords in the Subaru" which annoyed him, but he was still happy because spring, winter summer or autumn, he was racing, and the guy back at the garage was a great friend to have.
2:35 I see what you did there
In France and other francophone countries we use corner degree instead of the numbers, which I feel is a much more accurate system because it is an objective method to determine corner severity
know what, that "drummers of motorsport" is a perfect analogy. they literally lay the foundation and beat of a given stage. i guess the driver would be a vocalist that is also playing lead guitar, they take in the information and cues from the drummer to know when the next tempo change is, if youre about to come to the bridge of the song that is immediately followed by a repeat of verse one, then hit the break down into chorus 3........i NEVER put that together on my own, and it took you saying it for it to get me to actually realize that lmao
Growing up in Indianapolis in the 60's I watched the change from Front to Rear engine. Jackie Stewart, Mansel, Emerson, and Mario have explained set up on an oval, most of which broadcast during the 500. I learned something from this show! Doing a great job Aidan!
For WRC they are given pace notes by the Rally organisers and then they use these to adapt during the recce. they also film this and carry on working on the notes after they have left the car and the stage.
Haden's system is widely used to help assess the corners during the recce.
That was the nicest thing, I've ever heard some one saying about drummers. :D
An education. Thanks Aidan.
Edit: 2:34 I've just been rickrolled!
Ive still got the pace notes from when i drove my brothers wrx on the Highlands rally. I actually keep it near and dear to me cuz my brother was my codriver, not only was it his car but he was right there with me reading off the notes doing the maths along the route. All while he was baked out of his mind.
This was very,very interesting. I had always just assumed they had a printed track map with notes for the key features. Illuminating video, well done sir.
@2:34 You have been Rick Rolled!
2:35 fair play Mr Millward... fair play
Now, where is my PS1 again? Got to play some Rally Championship.
Thank you Aidan this has been something I’ve been meaning to look into but never have
I always thought of the Co-Driver as the Conductor, and the Driver the musician, while the cat was obviously the instrument.
Never change Aidan, Never change! 2:42
NEVER GONNA GIVE YOU UP
Brilliant!!
Bit ironic this video came up as I was watching videos of close calls in rallying lol
The algorithm works.
@@AidanMillward certainly does lol and another great video 🙂 always get excited when I see you've made another. Keep up the good work 👍
I learnt them from playing rally games
I just want to say that you have been fantastic lately. The diversity of your videos and the interesting content has been mega!
6:13 im getting viperconcept vibes rn. Extra extra long. 😏
Glad you mentioned the different scales employees by different countries. I had a rude awakening when I purchased a licenced WRX game and it used the opposite numbering to the codemasters developed games. BANG straight into a tree first corner!
Interesting fact of the best co-drivers: they use the pitch of their voice to indicate things such as severity of the cornet, danger or to encourage. Jonne Halttunen, Kalle Rovanperä's co-driver is a good example of this. Other drivers, namely Toni Gardemeister, will use encouragements to go over blind crests etc. Things like "don't lift" or "believe" freely translated are examples of this. Co-drivers also mark changes to pacenotes during the stages for a possible rerun or reuse next year.
It does that in DR 2.0 I think.
smoothest rick roll of my life
This is the one channel that gives you the info you always wanted, without stupid memes.
RUclips needs more Aidens, less Donut Media, less WTF 1, etc
There's a good discussion in Hayden Paddons book about pace notes; his codriver John Kennard mentions modern WRC cars going so damn fast that the codriver isn't actually processing what he is saying; he is just conditioned to say what he reads without even thinking about it.
taught me lots! thanks
Hello Aidan: Sebastien Loeb was reputed to remember every course he had driven. I think the co-drivers are absolutely amazing.
2:33 Rickrolled in the phonetic alphabet. This is a first!
Another great video Aidan. I used to play rally games & I can remember that one of them used the 1 = tight & 6 = fast system while another was the reverse .... talk about confusing & worse still I have a feeling they were the same series (possibly WRC & WRC2 on PS2).
What's amazing to me about pace notes is just how far ahead they are read.
And they read the notes with their seat as low as possible so they barely see over the dash. The lower seat is to lower the center of balance as much as possible. Reading notes in a car that is bouncing all over the place. You have to know exactly where you are so your notes are accurate and timely. Some drivers will even call out updates to the notes that the co-driver will have to annotate while still calling out the next turn, at full race speed. I’ve seen Sebastian Lobe do this a couple of times. This way the next year when they come back to that course the notes are close to what they need.
Side note. The Toyota Prerunner is named for a truck that pre runs a rally stage to get the notes needed for a rally driver, hence Prerunner.
Back in the 80’s group b days and before the Lomabard RAC rally was known as blind rally with no recce or pacenotes,the co driver had a map and illuminated magnifying glass and road book describing the route, the route not being made public until just before the rally
I recall that old episode of Top Gear, when James May tried to read out the pace notes for Kris Meeke. James was all over the place and rather flustered. Certainly not just “sit there and read”, requires teamwork and confidence in each other of the highest order.
And the forward distance of reading differs a lot between drivers. Kalle Rovanperä likes to use really long advance.
awesome video
I do miss being in the hot seat of the Lada. In that old girl everything was flat as we never got it fast enough to warrant worrying about corners or braking.
You drop a Rickroll in there..
Love your videos Aidan, keep up for good work
2:35 Magnificent!
I remember hearing a lot of that in Colin McRae Rally 2.
Im always interested in the rally co drivers when they reading up the pacenotes. I mean just hearing them in a game is mad. Compared to a flightsim where the ATC is telling you where or how to taxi to or from a runway, I always end up asking myself "How do the real people get all that in one go?"
They just know. It’s all a standardised code. Pilots read back exactly what the ATC has told them as a way of saying they understood. They don’t just say “Roger”.
“KLM flight 67, turn right head 0-4-4, climb and descend flight level 100, slow to 200kts”
“Turn right heading 0-4-4, descend and maintain flight level 100, slow to 200kts- KLM 67”
You need to do something on british truck racing!
I have always heard the lower numbers being sharp corners. I always assumed it was the recommended gear or something. Then again, I’ve never seen or heard real pace notices, just the rally stages from the old V8 Supercars game and Colin McRae 04.
Stenographer goes on a _quick_ vacation.
Oh boy, translating notations
Bit too used to that in some way, since I love fighting games so much
TRIPLE CAUTION!
"Don't cut"
Yeah rig-
BOOM.
Interesting, I was just watching a rally on RedBull TV , and I was wandering what the co-pilot was saying 👍
Have we just been Rick Rolled?
In US rallies the pace notes are computer generated and each team is handed an official book for the event.
No coincidence that some of the best motorsport team managers started off in the co-drivers seat ...
hahah nice rickroll you threw in there man xd
4:53 Another system I've seen is the one Elfyn Evans currently uses in WRC where 1 is fastest and 9 is slowest - which is interesting. Before that I only ever knew 1 to 6, with 6 being the fastest
I used to think the number is what gear you need to maximize the corner.
Looks like we've got ourselves some old-fashioned *S E G A R A L L Y C H A M P I O N S H I P*
I love that meme.
It's also not uncommon to do recce in a rental car (at national level) in New Zealand, as competitors might travel quite a long way and can't justify bringing an extra car just for recce. They get a rental for driving round and do recce in it too
Who is Samir, I have been living under a rock😁
Just search Samir You Are Breaking the Car
@@AidanMillward cheers buddy
@@AidanMillward hahaha he is shit, brilliant 😂
Flight Level 300 is not always the same as 30000ft. Only in standard atmospheric conditions.
I prefer my corners to be labeled by the recommended gear as an indicator of severity. Probably spent too much time in GT2/3/4/5 lol
Aaannnd I got Rick rolled... Nicely done 👏
Most pace notes are fine, all up until you see the Finland pace notes…😳
Do air traffic control use those codes if the suspect has scrambled i guess you kinda did answer this
In all honesty i never really got the hang Of the pace notes. I know most notes but while Racing in for example dirt rally 2.0 i can never keep up with the Pacenotes. Either im too slow and i get the notes from 2-3 corners ahead or im getting confused with the old corners
Aidan, jct for junction, jmp for jump
If rallying can have one rally a year here co drivers do the driving and the drivers do the navigation?
Did I just got Rick Rolled?
"You were red or you were blue" not sure if rally fan, young person in south central Los Angeles or Rooster Teeth fan
Or a football fan living in Liverpool.
I just knew that we were the same age. Okay watchout, over the crest, 50, over the crest (jump maybe) into 3 left tighten into 1 minus, rock outside.
2:34 this is really why I learned the NATO phonetic alphabet.
the only thing i can think of thats more scary than driving a rally race is being the co driver
Kinda unrelated question are there any us rallys?
Only ones I can think of that would even be close to rallying in the U.S. would be the Pikes Peak hill climb in Colorado. But as far as I'm aware there aren't and haven't been any WRC events in the U.S. for as long as I can think of.
But I could be totally wrong and just not be aware of them.
There is of courts Rally-Cross in the U.S. but it's not even close to the same thing, other than perhaps the cars the drive.
@@whomyguy1 pikes peak counts also thats in Colorado the nurburing of us in Colorado wow
2:39 *fistshake*
What happens when a co-driver loses their spot on the notes, how do they get back on track
The driver guesses, I think.
I watched an interview with a retired WRC co-driver recently where he said that just briefly looking up at the road would let him find the right spot, but that often he would just feel how the road is going with his arse to find the right spot in the notes.
The RBR's default "easy left, fast right" system is my favor, and most easily disgust one for me, even as my mother tone is not English.
"5 left, 4 right" is accept for me, but if it's "left 5, right 4", my brain just won't able to handle it on fly and I'll crash badly.
DC clearly stands for when David Coulthard stands on the Stage smh
I’d have gone bassist instead of drummer … but then there’s Primus, Rush, Bela Fleck and the Flecktones …
Laughs in Steve Jordan and John Moffat.
2:39 .......dammit....tricked again. PS co-drivers are like drummers in a band. They decide the beat (notes) the rest will have to follow otherwise it will end up in a mess
did... did we get Rickrolled?
Never gonna give you up?
I was a Burns fan, too. Admired Colin McRae's sheer guts, and Petter Solberg's sheer ability, but Burns was special. Lost interest around the time Seb Loeb began running the table, and Seb Ogier didn't make me want to watch, either
Me too. I got really cross with Elfyn Evans last year when he crashed handing the title to Ogier
ffs that never gonna give you up lol
I see halo did it's job then.
Let's be honest Sega Rally always had the best pace notes 👌
Rickroll
"Co-drivers are the drummers of motor sport" I better fucking hope not,
only reaching peak performance while insanely drunk is not a good trait for a rally (co) driver
(09:10) “[Co-drivers] are the drummers of motorsport.“
At least drummers perform at stage level, or sometimes on a stage riser; on the other hand, co-drivers are intentionally humiliated by necessarily being seated on low seats that barely give them a view out the car.
_Shameful._
Team no hud here