I was searching for one of your older videos where you discuss your transition from playing with a shoulder rest to not using one, but couldn't find it labeled as such. It was THE video that caused me to experiment with no shoulder rest a few years ago, and it transformed my enjoyment of playing. I'm just an old man who is playing the violin, off and on, as a hobby in my retirement. When I was young, I played all the violin literature on the flute, so I'd like to play more of it on violin now. Playing with no shoulder rest has helped in terms of comfort, vibrato (both wrist and arm), and my relationship to the violin. I tried four shoulder rests in five years and although the last one was best, I still couldn't play for more than 20 minutes a day or so, without risking getting some residual neck pain. No shoulder rest, and no pain! Even though I'm in my 60s, I had no neck or back problems. It was just violin playing that bothered my neck. I have a theory that flute, an instrument which I took seriously for a period in my youth, such that I went to Europe to study and planned on entering the Geneva International Competition, is one of the most natural instruments to play. You can either make a beautiful sound on the flute, or you can't. The sound can't be developed much or taught, although the headjoint design is something which can optimize one's sound. My plans for a career in music were derailed by an opportunity to work and travel internationally in another field. So if flute is the most natural, then violin is one of the most unnatural. And yet, for me anyway, playing without a shoulder rest feels kind of natural, comparatively. In the previous century, with Heifetz basically not teaching students who play with shoulder rests, considering it too alien to the way he played and taught, now most professionals use shoulder rests, and there are too many teachers who just don't even bother to consider a student might be a lot better off without a shoulder rest. After a few months playing a $3 violin when I was eleven, no lessons, I didn't try violin again until college, and then I had two teachers over 8 months, and quit again, until I retired. I didn't like practicing, and I thought my progress was glacial. Neither teacher in college considered telling me to try playing without a shoulder rest, nor did either notice the chin rest I was using was one of the more unusual, a Stuber. It has a high edge with deep scoop and felt like a torture device compared to a standard Guarneri rest. It wasn't like they didn't know anything about violin. My first teacher was a student of Albert Markov and the second had two degrees from Juilliard. So before retirement age, I'd played the violin less than one year total. Anyway, what a waste of time in my retirement, struggling to play with a shoulder rest, and with the pain. There are dozens of violinists on RUclips who do things like demonstrate how bad $100 Ebay violins are, and so many good videos teaching vibrato, but very few about playing without a shoulder rest. Maybe it is impossible for most violinists who grew up playing with a shoulder rest and are now fairly high level players, but it isn't impossible for some high-level players to switch, even someone as accomplished as Nathan. Some people will freak out at having to support the violin with the left hand, but even that aspect of it feels more natural to me, and it only took me a few days to realize it was going to work. For more experienced players, it might take a month. Of course, I'm not suggesting everyone should try playing without a shoulder rest, just people like myself, who experienced pain with one, and an annoyance with how it slips.
So thorough and helpful, Nathan! You’ve given me lots to think about. Thank you! I use a center chin rest due to having short arms and it has definitely helped in allowing me to keep a straight bow at the tip. I’m about to experiment with an (adjustable) Kreddle chin rest to test out a different heights and angle. I know you also advocate for keeping the elbow more or less consistent under the instrument and instead to reach ‘horizontally’ across the fingerboard for the lower strings. I still find that I do need to adjust my elbow under the instrument to assist and I also find that doing so helps my hand stay relaxed. Knowing that opinions and approaches vary among different violinists on technique and setup, I’ll keep experimenting and seeing what kind of waist band fits on my pants 👖. 🙂 Thanks for the great video, Nathan!
thank you I am almost there with the left hand it has been an auto crash getting there, so one problem solved on the A string at least not far to go now .
I'm a beginner 3 months and am struggling with some finger changes, mainly because sometimes I have to adjust my hand position other times not. My teacher says that's fine and I trust her but feels off so I will have to experiment, I might be able to optimize. Especially if I play other fingers I found my first is supporting the neck and might have to move it away before getting a good position to use it on A or E. I discovered it as I was sluggish (well, more than usual) making a small pause when going say 3rd to 1st while I don't have the same from 1st to 3rd. Really good explanations and camera angles, I will bookmark / save this video and return to it once in a while, try and think about these guidelines and experiment how can I improve. While I have so many challenges I actually like this about the violin that there's so much that can't be just written in a user guide for us to follow and execute perfectly. I know that in the past a lot of people learned to play, even people that couldn't read, maybe not up to pro standards but the idea is that I think there's a lot that has to be intuitively learnt, instead of intellectually, if that makes sense. As an IT engineer it seems intriguing for me, it's the opposite of what I normally do but I do believe a lot of things in life should be this way, it's just more interesting. :) Thank you.
As someone who also plays without a shoulder rest I would love a video on your thoughts on it. Great video, I'm gonna take all of this on board, thanks Nathan!
Thank you so much for this excellent video on left hand set up! I am finding that, now that I've done more extensive work on left hand frame, I'm much more able to control my fourth finger and it's shape. The suggestion to add that video as a part of this lesson is brilliant. Also, thanks for dividing this video into sections for easier reference. Great job!
Wow Nathan- that is super ultra nerdy and greatly appreciated!!! I’m Building Back Better after an extended break & while I cannot even look at some of it because I don’t even want to know it could be a problem-this helped me troubleshoot some things this week. Things I don’t remember learning, it was so long ago, but needed to think it detail about as I optimize. Thanks!
Nice video. I wonder if there is any remedy for first finger base knuckles squeeze into middle finger? Especially in first position playing F on E string. I am aware of the problem but my base knuckle of my first finger just does not want to stay open. Maybe some strength training is in order?
Hi Nathan - So nice to see your video as I'm browsing RUclips for tips on Audition Excerpts! I find alot of what you are re-iterating here is echoing what I'm currently learning in the Dounis Violin Collection (which I'd never heard or done until now). Basically life-changing for me! Thanks for posting this video. Hope you're staying safe/healthy! Take Care.
Bought a violin last week no idea how to play hope u put up some content tht helps teach how to play simple songs fr a beginer I think playing songs would be a great way to learn as the thought keeps me excited to play new songs
Bary - if you don't have a background in music, you're really going to need to find a teacher, otherwise it's more than likely that the errors will accumulate until you grind to a halt and get demoralised. Nathan tends to teach more advanced students. So if you do decide to take the RUclips route, this is an excellent channel for beginners: ruclips.net/video/OBXFdJ3rJFc/видео.html by a real violin teacher. Be careful which channels you follow, because there is some dreadful advice out there by people without proper qualifications.
Love your breakdown of various elements of position! It greatly complements and enriches my current end-result approach: Find hand-arm positions that feel relaxed / comfortable, making it 'easy' to play (1) octaves on all three string-pairs, and in 8 or 9 positions (compromise -- only highest string pair for high positions); and (2) scales / arpeggios spanning 4 strings in each of 8 or 9 positions. (I feel like I might be making up for going light on fundamental scale work in my early years.)
Hi, I struggle with the violin angle in the horizontal plane (9 to 12 o'clock analogy). Either I am feeling tension in the right shoulder because it is too close to 9 o'clock , or I am feeling tension in the left shoulder because it is too close to 12 o'clock. I cannot find a middle ground and so I stay around 10:30 for ease of playing (thus feeling tension in the right shoulder). Has anyone faced this? Advice welcome. Thank you Nathan for covering all these aspects of violin holding. The fact that you took time to divide your video in chapters is much appreciated. Looking forward to viewing your next videos.
A wonderfully helpful video. I found that placing my thumb a tad higher really helped me with relaxing my fingers and I tended to squeeze the thumb much less. I also have found having balance with the 2nd and 3rd fingers helps the 1st and 4th. Your thoughts on this, please?Again, your advice on Freedom and Structure really helped. Thank you. 🎻🎻
Thanks for this helpful video 👍Question: do you have your thumb a little lower underneath the neck when playing on the G-string? Especially when you vibrate and have to let go of your index finger from the neck, so the thumb is doing more support. Thanks if you have a comment on that 👍😊
Nearly all the aspects of this video are on point, but I question one point: I'm not sure the avoidance of moving the forearm to create less movement in the fingers is accurate. At slower tempi, each finger can be brought to balance on the string with the use of the rotation (not the twisting) of the forearm while keeping the elbow pointed down. Obviously at faster speeds or in faster passages, a compromise must be made in favor of balancing the fourth finger if it is used in such passages, but deliberately limiting movement in the arm at slower speeds, means the fingers must do more work to reach over the string. Because each finger, going from first to fourth finger, in turn, is further away from the string, one must have some kind of rotation (without twisting the muscles of the forearm) to bring the fingers closer to the string. If going gradually from E to A to D to G string, there will be forearm movement as well. The movement is actually initiated by the muscles of the upper arm bone it what is known as humero-scapular rhythm because when you move your upper arm bone (the humerus) you automatically are moving the scapula (the shoulder blade) and the bones of the forearm and along with it the wrist and hand. To position the fingers for an overall "reachability" for a string limits the freedom of this movement and is, to my thinking, going against the natural course of movement the arm should be allowed to make.
Hi Nathan! Thanks for the great video. I find myself particular awkward when my left hand needs to squeeze. For instance, if hypothetically, I were to play B4 with first finger and A5 with the fourth, (my other fingers occupied elsewhere). My fourth finger is prone to intonation mistake, and gets tired really fast. Do you have any advice? Thanks!
Yes! Oh so many. The left hand of a Violist really is quite different to that of a Violinist: Violists should think more like Cellists especially if you have shorter fingers/smaller hands. I.e. you may have to readjust your thumb to keep your hand balanced whilst playing 3rd/4th fingers. The wider neck actually means for me I always feel more comfortable playing Viola than Violin, but your thumb will generally have to be lower with shorter fingers in order to get the extra height/reach. There is a very interesting group of exercises that I'll link a video to: the main take away from it though is that Violists have to think differently about their left hand than Violinists, the thumb will be lower down to allow the fingers to come up more and it will move up and down the neck more so than on the Violin. ruclips.net/video/aAxQMGY0NOA/видео.html Some left hand tips for Viola ^^
I was searching for one of your older videos where you discuss your transition from playing with a shoulder rest to not using one, but couldn't find it labeled as such. It was THE video that caused me to experiment with no shoulder rest a few years ago, and it transformed my enjoyment of playing. I'm just an old man who is playing the violin, off and on, as a hobby in my retirement. When I was young, I played all the violin literature on the flute, so I'd like to play more of it on violin now. Playing with no shoulder rest has helped in terms of comfort, vibrato (both wrist and arm), and my relationship to the violin. I tried four shoulder rests in five years and although the last one was best, I still couldn't play for more than 20 minutes a day or so, without risking getting some residual neck pain. No shoulder rest, and no pain! Even though I'm in my 60s, I had no neck or back problems. It was just violin playing that bothered my neck.
I have a theory that flute, an instrument which I took seriously for a period in my youth, such that I went to Europe to study and planned on entering the Geneva International Competition, is one of the most natural instruments to play. You can either make a beautiful sound on the flute, or you can't. The sound can't be developed much or taught, although the headjoint design is something which can optimize one's sound. My plans for a career in music were derailed by an opportunity to work and travel internationally in another field. So if flute is the most natural, then violin is one of the most unnatural. And yet, for me anyway, playing without a shoulder rest feels kind of natural, comparatively.
In the previous century, with Heifetz basically not teaching students who play with shoulder rests, considering it too alien to the way he played and taught, now most professionals use shoulder rests, and there are too many teachers who just don't even bother to consider a student might be a lot better off without a shoulder rest. After a few months playing a $3 violin when I was eleven, no lessons, I didn't try violin again until college, and then I had two teachers over 8 months, and quit again, until I retired. I didn't like practicing, and I thought my progress was glacial. Neither teacher in college considered telling me to try playing without a shoulder rest, nor did either notice the chin rest I was using was one of the more unusual, a Stuber. It has a high edge with deep scoop and felt like a torture device compared to a standard Guarneri rest. It wasn't like they didn't know anything about violin. My first teacher was a student of Albert Markov and the second had two degrees from Juilliard. So before retirement age, I'd played the violin less than one year total.
Anyway, what a waste of time in my retirement, struggling to play with a shoulder rest, and with the pain. There are dozens of violinists on RUclips who do things like demonstrate how bad $100 Ebay violins are, and so many good videos teaching vibrato, but very few about playing without a shoulder rest. Maybe it is impossible for most violinists who grew up playing with a shoulder rest and are now fairly high level players, but it isn't impossible for some high-level players to switch, even someone as accomplished as Nathan. Some people will freak out at having to support the violin with the left hand, but even that aspect of it feels more natural to me, and it only took me a few days to realize it was going to work. For more experienced players, it might take a month. Of course, I'm not suggesting everyone should try playing without a shoulder rest, just people like myself, who experienced pain with one, and an annoyance with how it slips.
The best video on the left hand i have seen so far. Very thorough.
So thorough and helpful, Nathan! You’ve given me lots to think about. Thank you!
I use a center chin rest due to having short arms and it has definitely helped in allowing me to keep a straight bow at the tip.
I’m about to experiment with an (adjustable) Kreddle chin rest to test out a different heights and angle.
I know you also advocate for keeping the elbow more or less consistent under the instrument and instead to reach ‘horizontally’ across the fingerboard for the lower strings.
I still find that I do need to adjust my elbow under the instrument to assist and I also find that doing so helps my hand stay relaxed.
Knowing that opinions and approaches vary among different violinists on technique and setup, I’ll keep experimenting and seeing what kind of waist band fits on my pants 👖. 🙂
Thanks for the great video, Nathan!
I will try to encourage all my older children pupils to watch your excellent videos.
I have watched this videos many times, and my teacher is also a fan. The better my playing, the more I learn from it. Thank you very much!
thank you I am almost there with the left hand it has been an auto crash getting there, so one problem solved on the A string at least not far to go now .
I'm a beginner 3 months and am struggling with some finger changes, mainly because sometimes I have to adjust my hand position other times not. My teacher says that's fine and I trust her but feels off so I will have to experiment, I might be able to optimize. Especially if I play other fingers I found my first is supporting the neck and might have to move it away before getting a good position to use it on A or E. I discovered it as I was sluggish (well, more than usual) making a small pause when going say 3rd to 1st while I don't have the same from 1st to 3rd.
Really good explanations and camera angles, I will bookmark / save this video and return to it once in a while, try and think about these guidelines and experiment how can I improve. While I have so many challenges I actually like this about the violin that there's so much that can't be just written in a user guide for us to follow and execute perfectly. I know that in the past a lot of people learned to play, even people that couldn't read, maybe not up to pro standards but the idea is that I think there's a lot that has to be intuitively learnt, instead of intellectually, if that makes sense. As an IT engineer it seems intriguing for me, it's the opposite of what I normally do but I do believe a lot of things in life should be this way, it's just more interesting. :)
Thank you.
As someone who also plays without a shoulder rest I would love a video on your thoughts on it. Great video, I'm gonna take all of this on board, thanks Nathan!
Google his name and shoulder rest and you should find a blog post where he talks about ditching his shoulder rest in detail.
Thank you so much for this excellent video on left hand set up! I am finding that, now that I've done more extensive work on left hand frame, I'm much more able to control my fourth finger and it's shape. The suggestion to add that video as a part of this lesson is brilliant. Also, thanks for dividing this video into sections for easier reference. Great job!
Best video and explanation on the L hand I have seen. I got your name from Lynn Kuo's excellent videos. Much appreciated. !
At Last! A comprehensive explanation on setting up the left hand -- this is so helpful. Thank you :-)
You answered every single question I had. Thank you so much.
Great video!
Hey thanks! I love what you're doing as well... did you get an email from me through your website by any chance?
Thanks! I got the one for this video and am on your email list in general. Was there something else?
Just a brief note, and for some reason I can't find your address anywhere! Would you reply to one of mine and then I can write you back? Thanks man!
For sure! Just sent
Wow Nathan- that is super ultra nerdy and greatly appreciated!!! I’m Building Back Better after an extended break & while I cannot even look at some of it because I don’t even want to know it could be a problem-this helped me troubleshoot some things this week. Things I don’t remember learning, it was so long ago, but needed to think it detail about as I optimize. Thanks!
Lib
This is such a fantastic video, thank you.
great video for new player and advanced player too!
This is such a great review for an old timer like me! Thank you. Mary
This helped me run a great “system check” on myself, Nathan. I came out well, and got a couple of little “tweaks” to incorporate. Thank you!
Gracias Nath!!
Que gusto verte y escucharte !!
Soy Violympic 🏆
Saludos desde Mexico
Very helpful! Thanks Nathan
Thank you for these great tips! Your videos are so thorough and detailed and of great help to myself and my children who are studying the violin.
Nice video. I wonder if there is any remedy for first finger base knuckles squeeze into middle finger? Especially in first position playing F on E string. I am aware of the problem but my base knuckle of my first finger just does not want to stay open. Maybe some strength training is in order?
Really clear explanations of LH set up! Thanks so much!
Very clear detailed explanation. Bravo!
Hi Nathan - So nice to see your video as I'm browsing RUclips for tips on Audition Excerpts! I find alot of what you are re-iterating here is echoing what I'm currently learning in the Dounis Violin Collection (which I'd never heard or done until now). Basically life-changing for me! Thanks for posting this video. Hope you're staying safe/healthy! Take Care.
Bought a violin last week no idea how to play hope u put up some content tht helps teach how to play simple songs fr a beginer I think playing songs would be a great way to learn as the thought keeps me excited to play new songs
Bary - if you don't have a background in music, you're really going to need to find a teacher, otherwise it's more than likely that the errors will accumulate until you grind to a halt and get demoralised. Nathan tends to teach more advanced students. So if you do decide to take the RUclips route, this is an excellent channel for beginners: ruclips.net/video/OBXFdJ3rJFc/видео.html by a real violin teacher. Be careful which channels you follow, because there is some dreadful advice out there by people without proper qualifications.
Thank you so much. Your videos are awesome.
Love your breakdown of various elements of position! It greatly complements and enriches my current end-result approach: Find hand-arm positions that feel relaxed / comfortable, making it 'easy' to play (1) octaves on all three string-pairs, and in 8 or 9 positions (compromise -- only highest string pair for high positions); and (2) scales / arpeggios spanning 4 strings in each of 8 or 9 positions. (I feel like I might be making up for going light on fundamental scale work in my early years.)
Now I'm looking forward to having a similar video on the right hand ;)
Hi,
I struggle with the violin angle in the horizontal plane (9 to 12 o'clock analogy). Either I am feeling tension in the right shoulder because it is too close to 9 o'clock , or I am feeling tension in the left shoulder because it is too close to 12 o'clock. I cannot find a middle ground and so I stay around 10:30 for ease of playing (thus feeling tension in the right shoulder). Has anyone faced this? Advice welcome.
Thank you Nathan for covering all these aspects of violin holding. The fact that you took time to divide your video in chapters is much appreciated. Looking forward to viewing your next videos.
Do you use a shoulder rest?
Thank you ❤
Man you explain everything in suh a great detail huge #respect
Very well done. Nathan. Thank you.
Great video. I want to play well someday.
How's it going dark horses
Thank you! I thought this was really useful.
thank you
A wonderfully helpful video. I found that placing my thumb a tad higher really helped me with relaxing my fingers and I tended to squeeze the thumb much less. I also have found having balance with the 2nd and 3rd fingers helps the 1st and 4th. Your thoughts on this, please?Again, your advice on Freedom and Structure really helped. Thank you. 🎻🎻
Amazing work, thank you!
brilliant, thank you
A good vibrato helps to free off left hand and give it balance.
Thanks for this helpful video 👍Question: do you have your thumb a little lower underneath the neck when playing on the G-string? Especially when you vibrate and have to let go of your index finger from the neck, so the thumb is doing more support. Thanks if you have a comment on that 👍😊
Nearly all the aspects of this video are on point, but I question one point: I'm not sure the avoidance of moving the forearm to create less movement in the fingers is accurate. At slower tempi, each finger can be brought to balance on the string with the use of the rotation (not the twisting) of the forearm while keeping the elbow pointed down. Obviously at faster speeds or in faster passages, a compromise must be made in favor of balancing the fourth finger if it is used in such passages, but deliberately limiting movement in the arm at slower speeds, means the fingers must do more work to reach over the string. Because each finger, going from first to fourth finger, in turn, is further away from the string, one must have some kind of rotation (without twisting the muscles of the forearm) to bring the fingers closer to the string. If going gradually from E to A to D to G string, there will be forearm movement as well. The movement is actually initiated by the muscles of the upper arm bone it what is known as humero-scapular rhythm because when you move your upper arm bone (the humerus) you automatically are moving the scapula (the shoulder blade) and the bones of the forearm and along with it the wrist and hand. To position the fingers for an overall "reachability" for a string limits the freedom of this movement and is, to my thinking, going against the natural course of movement the arm should be allowed to make.
wow this seems useful. gotta get back to it after work. :)
Dude thanks, this is really detailed! 🎊🎉👑
An excellent video, thank you for your guidance!
Hi Nathan! Thanks for the great video.
I find myself particular awkward when my left hand needs to squeeze. For instance, if hypothetically, I were to play B4 with first finger and A5 with the fourth, (my other fingers occupied elsewhere). My fourth finger is prone to intonation mistake, and gets tired really fast.
Do you have any advice? Thanks!
Are there any acceptable compromises for playing the viola with its wider neck, with not large hands?
Yes! Oh so many. The left hand of a Violist really is quite different to that of a Violinist: Violists should think more like Cellists especially if you have shorter fingers/smaller hands. I.e. you may have to readjust your thumb to keep your hand balanced whilst playing 3rd/4th fingers. The wider neck actually means for me I always feel more comfortable playing Viola than Violin, but your thumb will generally have to be lower with shorter fingers in order to get the extra height/reach. There is a very interesting group of exercises that I'll link a video to: the main take away from it though is that Violists have to think differently about their left hand than Violinists, the thumb will be lower down to allow the fingers to come up more and it will move up and down the neck more so than on the Violin.
ruclips.net/video/aAxQMGY0NOA/видео.html
Some left hand tips for Viola ^^
Very good LG Stefan Violine Viola Germany Professionelle Konzerte und Unterricht
22:30
I need some type of therapy/ excercises to loosen up my left hand. I'm getting older & things are not as flexible as they used to be...😠
I just posted a new video called Mind the Gap, check that one out!
I was not able to turn on the notifications for this site because it said it is a "made for kids" site. What the heck is that?