I admire how different your suggestions are from Mr. Hurwitz. It's nice to different viewpoints supported by well-detailed arguments. I personally do not care for historical performances; I've tried and tried, but life's too short. I know my brain wants good sound quality. But I appreciate the long-view perspective. Thanks for the hard work in putting this together.
Dear Mr Zilkha, I found this video via the discussion in the talkclassical forum about Hurwitz' channnel. I watched it piece by piece over the last weeks and enjoyed it very much. Thank you for this excellent presentation of important symphony recordings. I was happy when I saw this week that you released another video (about concerto recordings). Also, you started a new thread in the talkclassical forum which I will also follow. So I thought this is the right moment to say thank you, subscribe to your channel, give the videos a like and write a comment. By the way, I am from Germany (so sorry for possible language mistakes in my text), 53 years old, and I do not have a real "musical background", meaning I play no instrument and do not know very much about musical theory. But I have been enjoying listening to classical music and collecting recordings for many years. Probably the talkclassical forum is the better place to discuss the contents of the videos, so maybe just one thought here: In the symphony video I particularly liked how respectfully and appreciatively (is that the right word?) you talked about the conductors of the recordings. And I mean that especially in comparison to Mr Hurwitz, who is often very disrespectful to certain artists (he hates Furtwängler for example). Despite all freedom of opinion and speech, one can criticize an artist negatively but still should respect the person and his/her achievements. I like the way you talk about works, artists and recordings in your videos, and so I wish you all the best and hope that there will be more videos in the future. Your channel deserves much more subscriptions and clicks. Friendly greetings from Germany! TR
C'mon, hate is a strong word. I haven't heard Hurwitz ever attacking a character of a person. He certainly has strong opinions about the performances, though.
@@eldragon4076 Have you heard him talking about the conductors T. Currentzis or R. Norrington? If this isn't "attacking a character" then I don't know what is.
@eldragon4076 Hurwitz is so biased, pro jewish conductors and artists it's laughable. Furthermore, he's a CD hoarder.....I seriously doubt he has listened to most of the CDs he's supposedly reviewed.
@@thr4017 In Norrington's case, he was a very vocal and dogmatic propogandist for his theories. In my listening to Hurwitz's thoughts on Norrington; he certainly been scathing in his condemnation of Norrington the orchestral conductor (much less so as a choral) and his musical theories but do not recall him actually getting "personal", making aspersions about his personal character.
There are about 1,000 or more guys or so on RUclips that speak about classical music as if they were better than anyone else good enough to give recommendations. I grew up with classical music as well, I'm also a performer, and also I am unfortunately from Texas. No big deal. My best advice to you, it's not to listen to these so-called critics everyone has their favorite recordings of whatever they want to listen to, please discover classical music one composer at a time one day at a time, there is no need to rush, classical music is also full of lesser known composers and also lesser known performers that did wonderful job. So don't let critics tell you what to listen to, what to listen for, how to listen to it, discovering these things by yourself without anyone tell you is far more rewarding.
Most critics are not the authoritarian ogres you seem to believe. (Disclosure: I have been a published critic of music, film and drama.) We're not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't like, watch, or listen to. We offer our own subjective response to a piece of art or entertainment, presented as articulately as possible and hope you find our expression stimulating. If anyone is useful in placing before the public "lesser known composers and also lesser known performers that did wonderful job," it is critics. Comparatively few audience members deliberately seek out, on their own, worthwhile but obscure music and musicians. Who has the time, or knows where to look? Critics are often in a position to have a wide-angle view of what's available, and guide the curious listener to new discoveries. As to your being "unfortunately from Texas," watch it! You sound like a critic.
Wow!! Thank you so much for going over these Composer's and your take on the best Symphony Orchestra to listen to! I'm a Trumpet player that was classically trained by a variety of teachers that were retired from Orchestra or were playing in them! From Michigan but went to school in Boston! So being a Trumpet player I do like the Chicago Symphony from 70s-80s! Will have to listen to what your take on the Malher, Bruckner, Salbalus, Stravinsky to name! Thank you for wisdom!
We shouldn't forget mentioning Skrowaczewski when it comes to Bruckner :) His cycle is amazing and his interpretation of every single symphony is one of a kind. Check the 9th with the Minnesota especially. It'll be your favourite ;)
As far as Bruckner goes, for me it's got to be Sergiu Celibidache. A couple of weeks before getting married in 1989 I attended a performance of the 7th in Madrid. I had passages of the symphony going through my head when the judge who married us was speaking to me. Then in the 90s I attended two performances of the 3rd, and then the 4th and 8th. The final crescendo of the 4th by Celibidache is like nobody else. The string inflections in that buildup sound like no other conductor. Celi conducted 99 concerts in Spain throughout his lifetime and I was at nine of them. This said, not once did he draw tears from my eyes, in spite of the intensity.
For Haydn I strongly recommend a box published by Archiv featuring Trevor Pinnock and The English Concert. It's called The Sturm and Drang Symphonies and it has several symphonies from the middle numbers, but not any succession as such. It is truly delightful, especially in situations of slumber or midwake on the sofa after lunch.
Tchaikovsky 6th: I discovered that Furtwangler on a set of 78s I picked up in an antique store! I played on my windup gramophone (Columbia Granola), and even in the dim sonics, I was mesmerized. As for a good mastering on CD, I recommend the Naxos....mastered by Mark Obert-Thorn. You will never hear this recording sound better.
Gil...what a passion you have. I do not agree with many of your choices but admire your extensive offerings. Music as an artform is very much a personal choice. I have been collecting since really the introduction of cd's. I have also moved on a lot of recordings which I tired of. I can also say that with the baroque and classical repertoire, I much prefer any of the period performances over any modern instrument version. You mentioned John Elliot Gardener changing Beethoven. It was however not he, but rather Roger Norrington and the London Classical players that set thd music world alight. A controversial figure I know but just every recording since has emulated the pergormance style. I would propose that you need to remember what the performances are trying to achieve. That is trying to recreate the sound of the period. Most people do not have an understanding that orchestras of 200 years ago were much smaller ensembles than the modern day outfit. You cannot compare apples and pears. It is a matter of what you prefer. Lastly...The Hebrides overture....it is group of islands off the coast of Scotland and is pronounced Heb..re...dees.......
Bernstein for Mahler 6 is my favorite version. There is a video of the whole piece on RUclips. Best thing is the video does not have ads that interrupt the video.
I just started watching this, very interesting. Thanks for making this. I found it amazing, to me, that record labels would even bother converting such old records to compact disc. I don't know, but I'm guessing there isn't a huge market for something like a Beethoven symphony recorded back in the 1940's when there are so many newer ones out there recorded on modern equipment. Moreover, of the CD's with older performances on them, I wonder how likely it really is that you could find one of them. I've seen Dave Hurwitz recommend some CD as a best version or reference recording or some such thing. When I go to see if I can find it for purchase, a lot of times it's out of print and used ones are way out of my price range or you can't find it at all.
Really excellent survey. I wouldn't take away from any of your recommendations, all so fairly balanced and sensible. I especially appreciate your lack of grudges which have become a pain with Mr Hurwitz especially re Furtwangler. One addition that comes to mind re Bruckner would be Skrowaczeski. Wow! his entire Bruckner cycle is so fresh and energetic. Boulez by the way, also did a wonderful Bruckner 5 as well as 8, but maybe not available on CD. PS there is an out of this world wartime performance of Brahms 1 by Furtwangler from Jan 1945. Only the last movement survives, there are no words for its intensity.
The Skrow/Halle Bruckner 4 is a favorite of mine. If I had expanded the discussion more I would have included it. Darn, you’re right about that wartime Furt Brahms 1st! I should have mentioned it even though it’s only the last movement. Unparalleled intensity.
While I tend to agree with 90% of Hurwitz's choices I find his allergy to Horenstein both annoying and insulting. Furthermore he regularly blasts the UK/European critics while being equally guilty of being parochially in favour of his US-based examples. This may be because USA didn't have comparable access to UK issues when he was forming his opinions 40-50 years ago. Similarly Western Europe was denied access to masses of fine East German productions (e.g Sanderling and Blomstedt) at that time. And only now are they being rehabilitated via old Berlin Classics. Fortunately EMI reissued much Melodiya material and Supraphon LPs were always cheaply available at 75% of the cost of other premium price issues. Or we'd have missed even more great issues.
@@ArtyFactual_Intelligence Hurwitz is a good critic but he's not omniscient. He has his blind spots and biases and rarely owns up to them. Humility is not a trait of his as it refreshingly is with Gil.
I was chuckling to myself about how often you apologize for recommending "bad" audio in the historical performances. I have been sampling things on youtube as I go through your video. As someone who has listened to many, many Grateful Dead audience tapes, nothing you have presented comes close to some of those for rough sound; I came to love so many of those Dead tapes. So no fear for me listening to a 1940s recording here. 😃
Great video and thanks for taking the time to share your wonderful knowledge of the repertoire. Definitely looking forward to your chamber music and solo recording recommendations. Thanks again!
I've always thought that the final movement of Bernstein's (DG) Beethoven 7 exemplifies Wagner's comment about it being the apotheosis of the dance. Any faster, and it makes no sense to make any references to dance. As exciting as Kleiber is, it can seem just a little too driven.
Rodzinsky did a Tchaik 6 on Westminster where he holds the climax in the timpani. The growl, spit and fury they put into the 1st mvmts development sections is something I've never heard again, since. It's a treasure for that moment alone.
My favorite performance version of Beethoven's 7 Symphony is played by Fritz Reiner with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. It has the most correct tempo and surpasses Kleiber, Böhm and many others in overall interpretation. The great conductor! Highly recommended!
Big Mahler fan here. Thank you for listing some recommendations for some historical recordings that I wasn’t aware of. I will definitely give those a listen. I would be interested in your top picks for Mahler 7 & 8 as well.
@@c05.63 I agree that Wit is very good in Mahler 8. My first listening of the 8th was Abbado and I am partial to that one. For Mahler 7 both Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin and Tilson Thomas/London SO are excellent.
I agree with Dave Hurwitz for those two. For the 7th, Lenny and the New York Phil. For the 8th, Solti and Chicago is the classic recording, but Antoni Wit on Naxos is even better.
@@EE-gg3xf which Lenny/NYPO do you prefer? Sony or DG? As a trombonist, I love the DG one because the brass is amazing. However, the Sony one is incredibly exciting.
Mahler 7 - Bernstein + NY Phil (Sony) Mahler 8 - Solti + Chicago There is also a new recording of the 8th which is FANTASTIC from Osmo Vanska + Minnesota Orchestra on BIS, I highly recommend giving that one a listen too. I'm not a big fan of the Wit recording, although a lot of people like it. Also, there is a recording of the 2nd that not many people talk about, but I think is the best version ever recorded- Ozawa + Saito Kinen Orchestra on Sony. I cannot recommend it highly enough. Everyone has their own preferences for the 9th but I've always been partial to Ancerl + Czech Philharmonic on Supraphon.
Sometimes I just think, that Brahms was so very german in his compositions, that it is actually helpful having a german doing the conducting. Same thing with Strauss’ ’Vier Letzte Lieder’ only working at 100% with a soprano of german tongue.
Interesting that you should start your Mahler section with the pre-eminence of Barbirolli and go on to praise the Final Adagio of Horenstein's version of MAHLER 3. Deryck Cooke brought the news of Barbirolli's overnight death to the assembled LSO, recording engineer-Bob Auger, and Jascha Horenstein at the Fairfield Halls Croydon on the morning of Unicorn's last day of recording. It is not fanciful to suggest that the recording of that Final movement that morning (29 July, 1970) was their tribute to a much loved conductor.
Hi Gil, thanks for this. There are of course some things I disagree with (I hate Barbirolli's approach to Dvorak with a passion, for one), some I agree with (Monteux' Franck D minor, yeah!), and some I think are just down to different tastes. I notice a certain preference for mid-century conductors, and for Karajan - whose obsession with string sonority does work well with 19th century Germans, but IMO not so much Tchaikovsky. You need to play Tchaikovsky straight because the emotion is to tangible; if you don't like Mravinsky, just don't bother. However, I love that you recommend Kajanus in the Sibelius 2. He not only knew his Sibelius, he knew Sibelius himself pretty well. There's even a painting with the both of them, Akseli Gallen-Kalela and Aare Merikanto.
Karajan kind of despised choruses because he couldn't control them like the orchestras.. He tended to recess them all to the point that they sounded like they were singing halfway down the street. Consequently they tended to sound like recessed mush. Compare it to the Solti 72 chorus in BEETHOVEN 9. Crystal clear.
The 1928 recording of Beethoven's 5th with Richard Strauss conducting the Berlin State Opera Orchestra (find it in RUclips) is quite fun. The audio is challenging, and the playing is sloppy in some (many) places. But the interpretation Strauss was going for is clear. Would that the orchestra had been able to really pull it off. Still, quite fun. On another note, I won't let von Karajan into my house. Perhaps it is my loss.
I approve of your choices and you’ve pointed me to some recordings I didn’t know….. It is however a shame you missed out Elgar No.1 considering you’ve included Rachmaninov…..
Thank you for all your videos, its my first contact point! Do you have all these suggestions in written somewhere? In a website maybe? Please keep up your great work!
I actually find the scherzo of the Mahler 6 superfluous. I usually listen to my curated version of the 6th with both outer movements and the adagio in the middle.
The Beethoven/Eroica/Harnoncourt recording is not really a period instruments performance. The trumpets are natural/valveless instruments, but the remaining instruments are of modern disposition. Regardless, it’s a great Beethoven cycle.
Harnoncourt's Beethoven is not really "Period". The winds, strings, and horns are all modern, but only the trumpets were valveless. COE is not a period instrument band. Kleiber is a go to for so many things.... interesting that one of the few concerts he did with the Berlin Phil was a Brahms 4th.... you can hear it on youtube. It is unbelievable in its overall impact, but the recording is not great at all.... sounds like someone sitting right behind the horns. The Bruckner 4ths I love are oddly - the Stanislaw Skrowaczewski and the Hallé Orchestra... hard to find now, and close second is a Klaus Tennstedt live recording the the Royal Concertgebouw. Both are just amazing, IMO. Glad you love the Boulez Bruckner 8th - it is just glorious. Another favorite is Lorin Maazel with Berlin Phil. The Thielemann Bruckners are really disappointing for me. Lately loving the Muti Vienna Phil Mozart symphonies. Great video, Gil!!
I've never understood WHY most music critics still prefer old performances and recordings (mainly from the 50s or 60s) over new ones. Do we no longer have modern quality conductors, orchestras and studios today who could really compete with these old recordings? Or is it just nostalgia, saying things used to be better... What about, for example, Herbert Blomstedt and the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig Brahms's complete symphonies on Pentatone, or his magnificent Beethoven cycle with the same orchestra... And there are many other conductors of the modern era with fantastic achievements, such as Yannick Nézet-Séguin, Andris Nelsons, Ivan Fischer, Riccardo Chailly, Cristian Macelaru, Jakub Hruša, Gustavo Dudamel, Osmo Vanska, Maxim Emelyanychev, Vasily Petrenko... Are they not worth mentioning?
Sure modern orchestras play better and more in tune but most of these conductors can't hold a candle to Furtwangler, Karajan, Bernstein, Szell, Klemperer just to name a few. Blomstedt, Fischer are exception.
@@user-ys4og2vv8k that's like saying newer model Ferraris and Aston Martin will always be better than the older ones which is also ridiculous. If you like those new generation conductors and recordings good for you.To each of his own
@@user-ys4og2vv8k So you're also saying newer model cars will always be better than older cars? But take the Ferrari F40. It's voted the most popular Ferrari model of all time and it's made in 1987 and stopped production at 1992. Point being? Also sorry, very few people takes seriously names like nezet seguin, dudamel, maceleru and Jacob hrusa. They're as interesting as visiting a dentist 😂😂
Hay una séptima dé Beethoven con Carlos kleiber con la radio bávara en la marca Orfeo que es mejor que la deutsche gramophone, se encuentra en qobuz. Saludos.
Dear Mr. Zilkha ! Thanks a lot for this excellent video. I have only one little complaint : the way you pronounce "Karajan" and "Böhm" is really ( really ) bad. One the other hand "Klemperer" , "Furtwängler" and "Jochum" sound just right. best greetings from vienna
Haha well, I try. In American English we have ways of pronouncing foreign names that sound more natural to us but I am sure sound hideous to native ears. I think I said Böhm right the first time but then reverted back to the American way. I actually know an American with the last name "Boehm," and we pronounce it the "wrong" way over here. I am glad you enjoyed the video!
Please ignore this last item this was an error of mine. I am a very old music two classical music since taking an online course with Harvard University on classical music. I thoroughly enjoyed and admired a wealth and breadth of your knowledge I only wish this was available in written form .I certainly look forward the following your videos in the future the future, I wonder how many of your recommendations I can follow on my tidal subscription? Thank you William Tonks
There may be a trap for current conductors: if they tried to be anywhere near as wild and adventurous with their ideas as, say, Furtwangler, I could imagine players, critics and crowds being sorta catty and bitchy about it: “Who does he think he is, that’s not accepted performance practice” etc… And the current conductor doesn’t have the rep/influence to make them shut up and give it a chance. Maybe?
There are too many questions that someone would need to know before providing recommendations. For example How big is your room? Do you just listen to CD"s? Do you also listen to vinyl LP's? What about sources like Amazon or Apple Music? What about multimedia (a tv-centric system with multiple channels?). What is your budget? Do you want to save any components? Or are you looking for a flat our recommendation for a new system? What if your WAF (humorously known as Wife Acceptance Factor from the old days). Is there someone who is concerned about aesthetetic value? For example, some stereophiles cannot have floor standing systems. Do you have neighbors who cannot tolerate bass? Can you have your walls shaking when you play percussion sounds? Do you use headphones? If all you want are, say, recommendations for a cd-centric system and can have floor standing speakers with a budget or $3,000 in a 15 x 15 foot open space room that could be done.
Only covering the major symphonies in this video. I could have done all 9 Beethoven symphonies but wanted to fit in more composers. Plus it’s good for newbies to have a sampling of where to start.
Almost 4 hours for an "essential" collection? I would rename this video a "comprehensive review" of classical recordings. As a real essential colleciton for newbies, I would suggest 1 modern, and/or 1 most famous and, optionally 1 historic example of each composition.
Great video indeed with a lot of interesting suggestions. Classical music is discussed in many places on youtube, but generally much more from a pieces point of view rather than a recordings point of view, so thank you for sharing your knowledge. Mark Ward (@musiconrecord6724) has an interesting channel as well, but more oriented towards LP collectors. Nice cat and piano by the way.
![[DRAGON BALL LEGENDS REVEALS ＆ STUFF] LEGENDS FESTIVAL 2024 Special Edition Part 1](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mV5bGIswTtQ/mqdefault.jpg)
When I see the title and the length of this video, I know it’s an instant subscribe. Thank you Gil.
same
I admire how different your suggestions are from Mr. Hurwitz. It's nice to different viewpoints supported by well-detailed arguments. I personally do not care for historical performances; I've tried and tried, but life's too short. I know my brain wants good sound quality. But I appreciate the long-view perspective. Thanks for the hard work in putting this together.
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it!
Very interesting and almost the opposite taste from Dave Hurwitz- but music is subjective and you like what you like
Dear Mr Zilkha,
I found this video via the discussion in the talkclassical forum about Hurwitz' channnel. I watched it piece by piece over the last weeks and enjoyed it very much. Thank you for this excellent presentation of important symphony recordings. I was happy when I saw this week that you released another video (about concerto recordings). Also, you started a new thread in the talkclassical forum which I will also follow. So I thought this is the right moment to say thank you, subscribe to your channel, give the videos a like and write a comment.
By the way, I am from Germany (so sorry for possible language mistakes in my text), 53 years old, and I do not have a real "musical background", meaning I play no instrument and do not know very much about musical theory. But I have been enjoying listening to classical music and collecting recordings for many years.
Probably the talkclassical forum is the better place to discuss the contents of the videos, so maybe just one thought here: In the symphony video I particularly liked how respectfully and appreciatively (is that the right word?) you talked about the conductors of the recordings. And I mean that especially in comparison to Mr Hurwitz, who is often very disrespectful to certain artists (he hates Furtwängler for example). Despite all freedom of opinion and speech, one can criticize an artist negatively but still should respect the person and his/her achievements.
I like the way you talk about works, artists and recordings in your videos, and so I wish you all the best and hope that there will be more videos in the future. Your channel deserves much more subscriptions and clicks.
Friendly greetings from Germany! TR
Thank you, I appreciate your feedback and am glad you have found the videos useful!
C'mon, hate is a strong word. I haven't heard Hurwitz ever attacking a character of a person. He certainly has strong opinions about the performances, though.
@@eldragon4076 Have you heard him talking about the conductors T. Currentzis or R. Norrington? If this isn't "attacking a character" then I don't know what is.
@eldragon4076 Hurwitz is so biased, pro jewish conductors and artists it's laughable. Furthermore, he's a CD hoarder.....I seriously doubt he has listened to most of the CDs he's supposedly reviewed.
@@thr4017 In Norrington's case, he was a very vocal and dogmatic propogandist for his theories. In my listening to Hurwitz's thoughts on Norrington; he certainly been scathing in his condemnation of Norrington the orchestral conductor (much less so as a choral) and his musical theories but do not recall him actually getting "personal", making aspersions about his personal character.
There are about 1,000 or more guys or so on RUclips that speak about classical music as if they were better than anyone else good enough to give recommendations. I grew up with classical music as well, I'm also a performer, and also I am unfortunately from Texas. No big deal. My best advice to you, it's not to listen to these so-called critics everyone has their favorite recordings of whatever they want to listen to, please discover classical music one composer at a time one day at a time, there is no need to rush, classical music is also full of lesser known composers and also lesser known performers that did wonderful job. So don't let critics tell you what to listen to, what to listen for, how to listen to it, discovering these things by yourself without anyone tell you is far more rewarding.
Most critics are not the authoritarian ogres you seem to believe. (Disclosure: I have been a published critic of music, film and drama.) We're not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't like, watch, or listen to. We offer our own subjective response to a piece of art or entertainment, presented as articulately as possible and hope you find our expression stimulating.
If anyone is useful in placing before the public "lesser known composers and also lesser known performers that did wonderful job," it is critics. Comparatively few audience members deliberately seek out, on their own, worthwhile but obscure music and musicians. Who has the time, or knows where to look? Critics are often in a position to have a wide-angle view of what's available, and guide the curious listener to new discoveries.
As to your being "unfortunately from Texas," watch it! You sound like a critic.
Wow!!
Thank you so much for going over these Composer's and your take on the best Symphony Orchestra to listen to! I'm a Trumpet player that was classically trained by a variety of teachers that were retired from Orchestra or were playing in them! From Michigan but went to school in Boston! So being a Trumpet player I do like the Chicago Symphony from 70s-80s! Will have to listen to what your take on the Malher, Bruckner, Salbalus, Stravinsky to name! Thank you for wisdom!
Thank you! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
It doesn't get better than Bud Herseth!!!!
We shouldn't forget mentioning Skrowaczewski when it comes to Bruckner :) His cycle is amazing and his interpretation of every single symphony is one of a kind. Check the 9th with the Minnesota especially. It'll be your favourite ;)
As far as Bruckner goes, for me it's got to be Sergiu Celibidache. A couple of weeks before getting married in 1989 I attended a performance of the 7th in Madrid. I had passages of the symphony going through my head when the judge who married us was speaking to me. Then in the 90s I attended two performances of the 3rd, and then the 4th and 8th. The final crescendo of the 4th by Celibidache is like nobody else. The string inflections in that buildup sound like no other conductor. Celi conducted 99 concerts in Spain throughout his lifetime and I was at nine of them. This said, not once did he draw tears from my eyes, in spite of the intensity.
For Haydn I strongly recommend a box published by Archiv featuring Trevor Pinnock and The English Concert. It's called The Sturm and Drang Symphonies and it has several symphonies from the middle numbers, but not any succession as such. It is truly delightful, especially in situations of slumber or midwake on the sofa after lunch.
Tchaikovsky 6th: I discovered that Furtwangler on a set of 78s I picked up in an antique store! I played on my windup gramophone (Columbia Granola), and even in the dim sonics, I was mesmerized. As for a good mastering on CD, I recommend the Naxos....mastered by Mark Obert-Thorn. You will never hear this recording sound better.
Gil...what a passion you have. I do not agree with many of your choices but admire your extensive offerings.
Music as an artform is very much a personal choice. I have been collecting since really the introduction of cd's.
I have also moved on a lot of recordings which I tired of.
I can also say that with the baroque and classical repertoire, I much prefer any of the period performances over any modern instrument version.
You mentioned John Elliot Gardener changing Beethoven. It was however not he, but rather Roger Norrington and the London Classical players that set thd music world alight.
A controversial figure I know but just every recording since has emulated the pergormance style.
I would propose that you need to remember what the performances are trying to achieve. That is trying to recreate the sound of the period. Most people do not have an understanding that orchestras of 200 years ago were much smaller ensembles than the modern day outfit.
You cannot compare apples and pears. It is a matter of what you prefer.
Lastly...The Hebrides overture....it is group of islands off the coast of Scotland and is pronounced Heb..re...dees.......
That pronunciation you've laid-out of Hebrides is correct.
Your choices are superb.
Especially Karl Bame's Bruckner 4
Very enjoyable, thanks!
Great video!
great videos! Thank you really love your recommendation❤
Bernstein for Mahler 6 is my favorite version. There is a video of the whole piece on RUclips. Best thing is the video does not have ads that interrupt the video.
No Nielsen? Great symphonies!
Very well done. The soprano soloist on Horenstein's Mahler 4 is Margaret Price.
Yes, I noticed that slip while editing and added a subtitle correction in the video. I get my Marilyn’s and Margaret’s mixed in my head sometimes.
I just started watching this, very interesting. Thanks for making this. I found it amazing, to me, that record labels would even bother converting such old records to compact disc. I don't know, but I'm guessing there isn't a huge market for something like a Beethoven symphony recorded back in the 1940's when there are so many newer ones out there recorded on modern equipment. Moreover, of the CD's with older performances on them, I wonder how likely it really is that you could find one of them. I've seen Dave Hurwitz recommend some CD as a best version or reference recording or some such thing. When I go to see if I can find it for purchase, a lot of times it's out of print and used ones are way out of my price range or you can't find it at all.
Really excellent survey. I wouldn't take away from any of your recommendations, all so fairly balanced and sensible. I especially appreciate your lack of grudges which have become a pain with Mr Hurwitz especially re Furtwangler. One addition that comes to mind re Bruckner would be Skrowaczeski. Wow! his entire Bruckner cycle is so fresh and energetic. Boulez by the way, also did a wonderful Bruckner 5 as well as 8, but maybe not available on CD. PS there is an out of this world wartime performance of Brahms 1 by Furtwangler from Jan 1945. Only the last movement survives, there are no words for its intensity.
The Skrow/Halle Bruckner 4 is a favorite of mine. If I had expanded the discussion more I would have included it. Darn, you’re right about that wartime Furt Brahms 1st! I should have mentioned it even though it’s only the last movement. Unparalleled intensity.
While I tend to agree with 90% of Hurwitz's choices I find his allergy to Horenstein both annoying and insulting. Furthermore he regularly blasts the UK/European critics while being equally guilty of being parochially in favour of his US-based examples. This may be because USA didn't have comparable access to UK issues when he was forming his opinions 40-50 years ago.
Similarly Western Europe was denied access to masses of fine East German productions (e.g Sanderling and Blomstedt) at that time. And only now are they being rehabilitated via old Berlin Classics.
Fortunately EMI reissued much Melodiya material and Supraphon LPs were always cheaply available at 75% of the cost of other premium price issues. Or we'd have missed even more great issues.
@@ArtyFactual_Intelligence Hurwitz is a good critic but he's not omniscient. He has his blind spots and biases and rarely owns up to them. Humility is not a trait of his as it refreshingly is with Gil.
I was chuckling to myself about how often you apologize for recommending "bad" audio in the historical performances. I have been sampling things on youtube as I go through your video. As someone who has listened to many, many Grateful Dead audience tapes, nothing you have presented comes close to some of those for rough sound; I came to love so many of those Dead tapes. So no fear for me listening to a 1940s recording here. 😃
Haha. Well, some classical listeners can be fussy when it comes to sound quality.
Great video and thanks for taking the time to share your wonderful knowledge of the repertoire. Definitely looking forward to your chamber music and solo recording recommendations. Thanks again!
Great video!
Not digital Karajan for "Eroica"! His best is '77, and very good '62
this video was very informative
I've always thought that the final movement of Bernstein's (DG) Beethoven 7 exemplifies Wagner's comment about it being the apotheosis of the dance. Any faster, and it makes no sense to make any references to dance. As exciting as Kleiber is, it can seem just a little too driven.
Rodzinsky did a Tchaik 6 on Westminster where he holds the climax in the timpani. The growl, spit and fury they put into the 1st mvmts development sections is something I've never heard again, since. It's a treasure for that moment alone.
With the NY Phil?
Royal Philharmonic is the performance that goes over the top, in the 1st mvmt.
ruclips.net/video/htH3uW5SebQ/видео.html
@@barney6888 cheers. Trying to find it on youtube
ruclips.net/video/htH3uW5SebQ/видео.html@@yundichen8332
Kempe's Eroica on Testament mirrors Furtwangler's Funeral March and is a sonic delight.
That is indeed an excellent version. It’s on the short list of those I would have added if I had more time, including also Bohm’s 1961 Berlin version.
@@GilZilkha Thanks for your replay to my comment, enjoy your reviews very much Gil.
@@GilZilkha Gil do you find Japanese recordings superior as a whole compared to the other cd issues?
I totally agree, especially the Funeral March.
My favorite performance version of Beethoven's 7 Symphony is played by Fritz Reiner with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. It has the most correct tempo and surpasses Kleiber, Böhm and many others in overall interpretation. The great conductor! Highly recommended!
agree!
Big Mahler fan here. Thank you for listing some recommendations for some historical recordings that I wasn’t aware of. I will definitely give those a listen. I would be interested in your top picks for Mahler 7 & 8 as well.
@@c05.63 I agree that Wit is very good in Mahler 8. My first listening of the 8th was Abbado and I am partial to that one. For Mahler 7 both Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin and Tilson Thomas/London SO are excellent.
I agree with Dave Hurwitz for those two. For the 7th, Lenny and the New York Phil. For the 8th, Solti and Chicago is the classic recording, but Antoni Wit on Naxos is even better.
@@EE-gg3xf which Lenny/NYPO do you prefer? Sony or DG? As a trombonist, I love the DG one because the brass is amazing. However, the Sony one is incredibly exciting.
@@jg2977Sony
Mahler 7 - Bernstein + NY Phil (Sony)
Mahler 8 - Solti + Chicago
There is also a new recording of the 8th which is FANTASTIC from Osmo Vanska + Minnesota Orchestra on BIS, I highly recommend giving that one a listen too. I'm not a big fan of the Wit recording, although a lot of people like it.
Also, there is a recording of the 2nd that not many people talk about, but I think is the best version ever recorded- Ozawa + Saito Kinen Orchestra on Sony. I cannot recommend it highly enough. Everyone has their own preferences for the 9th but I've always been partial to Ancerl + Czech Philharmonic on Supraphon.
Sometimes I just think, that Brahms was so very german in his compositions, that it is actually helpful having a german doing the conducting. Same thing with Strauss’ ’Vier Letzte Lieder’ only working at 100% with a soprano of german tongue.
Obviously you are a big fan of Furrwangler! I am too😊
Totally agree, Cluytens Beethoven cycle is one of the best!
The new said from warner emi of the furtwangler beethoven symphonies is amazing
Interesting that you should start your Mahler section with the pre-eminence of Barbirolli and go on to praise the Final Adagio of Horenstein's version of MAHLER 3.
Deryck Cooke brought the news of Barbirolli's overnight death to the assembled LSO, recording engineer-Bob Auger, and Jascha Horenstein at the Fairfield Halls Croydon on the morning of Unicorn's last day of recording.
It is not fanciful to suggest that the recording of that Final movement that morning (29 July, 1970) was their tribute to a much loved conductor.
Wow, I didn’t know that!
Hi Gil, thanks for this. There are of course some things I disagree with (I hate Barbirolli's approach to Dvorak with a passion, for one), some I agree with (Monteux' Franck D minor, yeah!), and some I think are just down to different tastes. I notice a certain preference for mid-century conductors, and for Karajan - whose obsession with string sonority does work well with 19th century Germans, but IMO not so much Tchaikovsky. You need to play Tchaikovsky straight because the emotion is to tangible; if you don't like Mravinsky, just don't bother. However, I love that you recommend Kajanus in the Sibelius 2. He not only knew his Sibelius, he knew Sibelius himself pretty well. There's even a painting with the both of them, Akseli Gallen-Kalela and Aare Merikanto.
Karajan kind of despised choruses because he couldn't control them like the orchestras.. He tended to recess them all to the point that they sounded like they were singing halfway down the street. Consequently they tended to sound like recessed mush. Compare it to the Solti 72 chorus in BEETHOVEN 9. Crystal clear.
Errata: He does mention Jochum on the 4th Symphony of Bruckner but not on the 8th. So I correct myself.
The 1928 recording of Beethoven's 5th with Richard Strauss conducting the Berlin State Opera Orchestra (find it in RUclips) is quite fun. The audio is challenging, and the playing is sloppy in some (many) places. But the interpretation Strauss was going for is clear. Would that the orchestra had been able to really pull it off. Still, quite fun.
On another note, I won't let von Karajan into my house. Perhaps it is my loss.
"Perhaps it is my loss." You've got that right.
I approve of your choices and you’ve pointed me to some recordings I didn’t know…..
It is however a shame you missed out Elgar No.1 considering you’ve included Rachmaninov…..
Thank you for all your videos, its my first contact point! Do you have all these suggestions in written somewhere? In a website maybe? Please keep up your great work!
I actually find the scherzo of the Mahler 6 superfluous. I usually listen to my curated version of the 6th with both outer movements and the adagio in the middle.
Mahler didn't!
Wow I truncate it even more and usually just listen to the 4th mvt! 😂😂😂
I’ve seen you on TC & I thought you would be a basket case, but you not so fair play. I’ll enjoy going through your vids. Thanks
The Beethoven/Eroica/Harnoncourt recording is not really a period instruments performance. The trumpets are natural/valveless instruments, but the remaining instruments are of modern disposition. Regardless, it’s a great Beethoven cycle.
Cesar Franck is from Belgium😊
And Mahler was born in Kaliště, Vysočina, Czechia ie now Czech Republic
@@ArtyFactual_Intelligence So what ? Franck was born in Liège (which at the time of his birth was part of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands).
Why did you leave out the wonderful symphonies of Robert Schumann?
a great effort - may I recommend you take one composer at a time so that listeners can take notes - look forward to your next talk - many thanks
Harnoncourt's Beethoven is not really "Period". The winds, strings, and horns are all modern, but only the trumpets were valveless. COE is not a period instrument band. Kleiber is a go to for so many things.... interesting that one of the few concerts he did with the Berlin Phil was a Brahms 4th.... you can hear it on youtube. It is unbelievable in its overall impact, but the recording is not great at all.... sounds like someone sitting right behind the horns. The Bruckner 4ths I love are oddly - the Stanislaw Skrowaczewski and the Hallé Orchestra... hard to find now, and close second is a Klaus Tennstedt live recording the the Royal Concertgebouw. Both are just amazing, IMO. Glad you love the Boulez Bruckner 8th - it is just glorious. Another favorite is Lorin Maazel with Berlin Phil. The Thielemann Bruckners are really disappointing for me. Lately loving the Muti Vienna Phil Mozart symphonies. Great video, Gil!!
Agreed on that Skrow/Hallé Bruckner 4th, one of the better ones out there
Why nothing about Schumann???
for brahms cycle, try Barbirolli with VPO.
Excuse me, but in the commentary on Mozart's 39th symphony, the album you show by Böhm is not with Vienna but with the Berlin Philharmonic
Yes, that should have said Berlin PO, not Vienna
I've never understood WHY most music critics still prefer old performances and recordings (mainly from the 50s or 60s) over new ones. Do we no longer have modern quality conductors, orchestras and studios today who could really compete with these old recordings? Or is it just nostalgia, saying things used to be better... What about, for example, Herbert Blomstedt and the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig Brahms's complete symphonies on Pentatone, or his magnificent Beethoven cycle with the same orchestra... And there are many other conductors of the modern era with fantastic achievements, such as Yannick Nézet-Séguin, Andris Nelsons, Ivan Fischer, Riccardo Chailly, Cristian Macelaru, Jakub Hruša, Gustavo Dudamel, Osmo Vanska, Maxim Emelyanychev, Vasily Petrenko...
Are they not worth mentioning?
Sure modern orchestras play better and more in tune but most of these conductors can't hold a candle to Furtwangler, Karajan, Bernstein, Szell, Klemperer just to name a few. Blomstedt, Fischer are exception.
@@corgansow6173 is it because the water was better before the World wars? This is just ridiculous!
@@user-ys4og2vv8k that's like saying newer model Ferraris and Aston Martin will always be better than the older ones which is also ridiculous. If you like those new generation conductors and recordings good for you.To each of his own
@@corgansow6173 but let me remind you - you are the one who claims that old Ferraris are always better than new ones, and not the other way around...
@@user-ys4og2vv8k So you're also saying newer model cars will always be better than older cars? But take the Ferrari F40. It's voted the most popular Ferrari model of all time and it's made in 1987 and stopped production at 1992. Point being?
Also sorry, very few people takes seriously names like nezet seguin, dudamel, maceleru and Jacob hrusa. They're as interesting as visiting a dentist 😂😂
Also Munch 8th and 9th
Hay una séptima dé Beethoven con Carlos kleiber con la radio bávara en la marca Orfeo que es mejor que la deutsche gramophone, se encuentra en qobuz. Saludos.
Beethoven 5th (Carlos Kleiber 3.64/Karajan 3.625)
Brahms 4th (Solti 3.59375)
Brahms 3rd (Solti 3.5625)
Schubert 8th (Carlos Kleiber 3.5625)
Beethoven 7th (Carlos Kleiber 3.25)
Prokofiev 1st (Marriner 3.25)
Shostakovich 5th (Solti 3.1718)
Brahms 1st (Solti 3.1562)
Dvorak 9th (Kubelik 3.1562)
Sibelius 2nd (Barbirolli 3.125)
Beethoven 6th (Karajan 3.00)
Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique (Colin Davis 3.00)
Mendelssohn 4th (Solti 3.00)
Mozart 40th (Karajan 3.00)
Mozart 41st (Szell 3.00)
Sibelius 5th (Karajan 3.00)
Schumann 3rd (Karajan 3.00)
Beethoven 9th (Karajan 2.975)
Brahms 2nd (Solti 2.96875)
Beethoven 3rd (Karajan 2.9062)
Bruckner 8th (Karajan 2.84375)
Mahler 5th (Michael Gielen 2.80)
Beethoven 2nd (Karajan 2.75)
Rachmaninov 2nd (Previn 2.71875)
Haydn 49th (Karajan 2.625)
Sibelius 7th (Karajan 2.625)
Vaughan Williams 6th (Andrew Davis 2.625)
Schumann 1st (Karajan 2.50)
Schumann 2nd (Karajan 2.50)
Schumann 4th (Karajan 2.50)
Sibelius 4th (Karajan 2.50)
Vaughan Williams 5th (Andre Previn 2.50)
Beethoven 1st (Karajan 2.375)
Bruckner 4th (Karajan 2.375)
Mahler 2nd (Rattle 2.225)
Vaughan Williams 3rd (Previn 2.25)
Mahler 1st (Tennstedt)
Mahler 4th (Szell)
Mahler 3rd (Solti)
Mahler 7th (Kubelik)
Vaclav Talich for the Pathetique
Dear Mr. Zilkha !
Thanks a lot for this excellent video. I have only one little complaint : the way you pronounce "Karajan" and "Böhm" is really ( really ) bad.
One the other hand "Klemperer" , "Furtwängler" and "Jochum" sound just right.
best greetings from vienna
Haha well, I try. In American English we have ways of pronouncing foreign names that sound more natural to us but I am sure sound hideous to native ears. I think I said Böhm right the first time but then reverted back to the American way. I actually know an American with the last name "Boehm," and we pronounce it the "wrong" way over here. I am glad you enjoyed the video!
😅@@GilZilkha
Please ignore this last item this was an error of mine. I am a very old music two classical music since taking an online course with Harvard University on classical music. I thoroughly enjoyed and admired a wealth and breadth of your knowledge I only wish this was available in written form .I certainly look forward the following your videos in the future the future, I wonder how many of your recommendations I can follow on my tidal subscription? Thank you William Tonks
There may be a trap for current conductors: if they tried to be anywhere near as wild and adventurous with their ideas as, say, Furtwangler, I could imagine players, critics and crowds being sorta catty and bitchy about it: “Who does he think he is, that’s not accepted performance practice” etc… And the current conductor doesn’t have the rep/influence to make them shut up and give it a chance.
Maybe?
I have 4000 cds but need to upgrade
I live in a house. One good room. Please... system recommendations, parts or whole
thanks!
There are too many questions that someone would need to know before providing recommendations.
For example
How big is your room?
Do you just listen to CD"s? Do you also listen to vinyl LP's? What about sources like Amazon or Apple Music? What about multimedia (a tv-centric system with multiple channels?).
What is your budget?
Do you want to save any components? Or are you looking for a flat our recommendation for a new system?
What if your WAF (humorously known as Wife Acceptance Factor from the old days). Is there someone who is concerned about aesthetetic value? For example, some stereophiles cannot have floor standing systems.
Do you have neighbors who cannot tolerate bass? Can you have your walls shaking when you play percussion sounds?
Do you use headphones?
If all you want are, say, recommendations for a cd-centric system and can have floor standing speakers with a budget or $3,000 in a 15 x 15 foot open space room that could be done.
How come you skipped Beethoven’s Symphonies 1,2,4, and 8?
Only covering the major symphonies in this video. I could have done all 9 Beethoven symphonies but wanted to fit in more composers. Plus it’s good for newbies to have a sampling of where to start.
@@GilZilkha please do more videos like these.
@@GilZilkhathis might be an obvious question. Do you have any recordings of the other Beethoven Symphonies or just the ones that are mentioned here?
@@alecsachs9082 If you want all the Beethoven symphonies, I recommend the Bohm/Vienna set mentioned in the video
@@GilZilkha I have a couple sets already. One of them is Toscanini with the NBC Symphony Orchestra from 1949-1953
Karajan's Beethoven 9th is cold, the 3rd movement is too slow, and the choir doesn't sing -- it barks. Try Igor Markevitch instead.
Love what you've done here! The only problem is your mispronunciation of the names of some conductors. Forvo will do that for you online,
We all have our own taste but yours sure as hell NOT mine ! On Mahler you bypassed two of the greatest Mahler conductors in Gielen and Bertini
There are at least a dozen great Mahler conductors.
Well after care listening you can have my share of all but the three I mentioned Oh I forgot make that four I didn’t list Kondrashin. !
Do you drive a cair?
Almost 4 hours for an "essential" collection? I would rename this video a "comprehensive review" of classical recordings. As a real essential colleciton for newbies, I would suggest 1 modern, and/or 1 most famous and, optionally 1 historic example of each composition.
Great video indeed with a lot of interesting suggestions. Classical music is discussed in many places on youtube, but generally much more from a pieces point of view rather than a recordings point of view, so thank you for sharing your knowledge. Mark Ward (@musiconrecord6724) has an interesting channel as well, but more oriented towards LP collectors. Nice cat and piano by the way.
Thanks for watching! I appreciate the comments. Yes, Claude has a great sense of timing, coming in right as I am about to finish Tchaikovsky.
IS THIS GUY, RELATIVE OF BERNSTEIN?