The japanese manga/ anime Jin-Roh would be another interesting ''alternate history'' story, that features different security/police forces who are antagonizing each other. It's also set in the 1960's in a Japan that was taken over by their Nazi allies.
US v nazi Cold War scenario is always so much more interesting then the man in the high castle scenario . TNO is my favorite version of this kind of world with its three way Cold War and warlord Russia
Man in the high castle was written by a man raised on propaganda and lies about what happened during the war and who was doing what Therefore the Saturday morning villian levels it gets to is going to be silly no matter how many liberties you take with it
Personally, I like TNO more as a silly version of such a timeline with a preference to Old TNO. I personally think that TWR did the concept better seriously and am currently taking my own stab at it in as a very early timeline and draft.
@spartanalex9006 i always thought that TNO was probably too drastically pessimistic, or at least riding full soviet propaganda about the regime, not that I think moderates would really survive in a fascist state, but there's not really a liberal faction, it's always "what can we do to be as consciously evil as possible instead of semi benign" Burgundy is a national death cult at least but there isn't, essentially, the reichs post office life experience
You're one of my newest favorite channels. I've been going through your library over the last few weeks. I love your breakdowns, analysis and historical lessons. I really appreciate the work you do. Thanks!
Your opening analysis on the place of WW2 in the creation of the modern world and the myth of Nazism as a 'singular evil' is spot on. I expect you will attract a lot of criticism over that, but well done for saying what many of us have been thinking for years.
What's as scary or even scarier is you can't discuss the possibility or you may face the possibility of jail in certain nations. That's more telling than any story does. Wise up people.
This was the first Alternate History novel I ever read not written by an author named Turtledove or Forstchen. I was just entering my 20s at the time, and it was my introduction to a more realistic portrayal of amoral bureaucracies and the self-interest of populations. At the time, the open-ended nature of the ending left me a bit confused and deflated, but of course I now understand how much more realistic and sophisticated it was than the work of the other authors I'd enjoyed in my teens. As you say, HBO's adaptation was fine for what it was, a less sophisticated but still engaging story. To this day, though, I have to laugh at the fact that the screenwriters decided we needed to see Rutger Haur die in the rain. Again.
Knowing the anti-Semitism prevalent in the US before and after the war, there would be those who think that the Nazis had the right idea. Most would just shrug their shoulders and move on.
@@AndreLuis-gw5ox To be fair, such a sentiment refers mostly to how the end of the war enabled Communist control of eastern Europe-the Iron Curtain and all that.
@Remington53 Most of the Communist pre Stalin Purge were of Jewish variety I honestly forget the percentage of bolshevik party members who were of Jewish percent but I would guess around 70%
@@Remington53 It wasn't just the US though. The ruling British elites of Churchill's era weren't fond of Jews and many were openly hostile and antisemitic.
@@thealaskanseparatist6786 Many Jews that the Red Army liberated from the camps in Eastern Europe - such as the parents of Norman Finkelstein - would not tolerate criticism of Stalin, despite the purges of Trotskyite Jews from the Communist Party during the '30s and in the government of the '50s. They never disputed that the purges happened but they placed having the Soviets literally save their lives as being more important than anything else Stalin had done.
It's a good thought, because what virtue is there, really, in throwing living bodies onto the fire to honor dead ones? It reminds me of Gandalf in Lord of the rings, though reversed somewhat in its implications, "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
Really appreciate you including the bit about ww2 being the foundational myth of the modern era. A book "return of the strong gods" goes into this quite well, but definitely isnt althist.
I agree that the book was much better than the movie - mainly due to its "Hollywood Ending." One movie scene in particular was when Pili was looking at an American magazine (I think it was "Life" or "Look,") that his father had confiscated from Charlie McGuire, featuring an advertisement for the March of Dimes, and depicted a boy with crutches who had survived polio. Pili said he thought it was sad that the boy was in that condition, and asked in all innocence why the Americans simply didn't "put him to sleep" the way Germany would have done. Xavier March replies with a story about an angel that didn't really answer the question. In my opinion, this was a classic "missed opportunity" that the screenplay adaptation wasted. Thanks for your thoughtful analysis! No pressure, but I'm looking forward to your take on S. M. Stirling's "Peshawar Lancers" in the hopefully near future . . . . 196th Like.
I remember watching this when it aired. Reminded me of the film adaptation of 'Gorky Park', with it's look behind the brutalist facade of an authoritarian state to see the very regular people that populate it. I thought of both films when the short-lived show 'Counterpart', set in contemporary Berlin, aired a few years back. Always wondered if that show was canned in 2019 due to it's prescience...featured a 'big flu' of unnamed origin.
Peace vs Justice is a very pertinent theme - in many domains. Would we risk WW3 and billions, to give justice for the Holocaust is a thought provoking idea, but even in current days, many conflicts (from Ukraine to Gaza) can be framed in similar ways. You can have one or the other, but not both.
Most pertinently, social justice for past crimes. Do we have reparations (both direct and affirmative action) and "justice" or "injustice" and peace? Both Justice and Injustice are in inverted commas because arguments can be made for either situation being just and unjust.
How is this even a question? Starting WW3 is evil for any reason. Especially for the sake of revenge. It would be like china starting WW3 to avenge the native americans.
In the book Starship Troopers there is a scene in OCS questioning if it is moral to resume a war over unreleased POWs or even just one POW held captive, even though dead and suffering would restart, and the guy might not be worthy or even die in the meantime. It would be more than justified is the consent in the class, but the written proof in symbolic logic that is given as assignment is sadly never mentioned again.
Spoiler: The book states that Operation Blau succeded in taking the Oilfields and cut off the Volga River, thus the Red Army ran out of fuel. Also the UK got starved out through Uboot warfare. Then the US dropped the bomb on Japan ending the pacific war but a V3-Rocket exploded over New York, showing the US that they could be hit if they came for Europe. The stalemate turned into a status quo.
@@fabianherrmann6398was the author aware that the Germans had their own little atom splitting project going as well? I also find it ironic that the Nagisaki bomb wiped out the japanese' own nuclear research that was arguably relatively close to a solution at the time of being turned to dust
The US "threat" advisory system is really brilliant, much better than the one in the novel. Having 5 levels rather than 4 it can be raised and lowered for effect without ever reading as low or severe.
two things Feral Historian 1. this is very similar to how america overlook many japanese atrocities after ww2 for their corporation after the war against the USSR 2. did you ever heard of the HOI4 mod The New Order: Last Days of Europe and if you did what do you think on it's take on a three-way Cold War in the 60s between Nazi Germany and Einheitspakt to Empire of Japan and Co-Prosperity Sphere and finely the United States of America and Organization of Free Nations and how in this Scenario germany won the war but lost the peace and ended up with ruin economy and angry and unhappy german populous and also collapse into a civil war after hitler die
"Many Japanese atrocities" There really aren't that many, and a lot of them are blown out of proportion to hide away the fact that just as many Asian countries did the exact same thing and more often than not worse. The reason we so called "hand wave" is because the pacific war was literally our fault and we ended up murdering an insane amount of japanese as a result(along with lots of people in Asia dying who wouldn't have otherwise)
@@victorkreig6089 By "our fault", I assume you mean the United States. And if by Britain and America sinking their navies after World War One, then I would agree with you. But the Japanese invaded China entirely on their own. And if China was the only country making a big deal out of the events of war, then I would agree with you. But we do have South Korea. Who to this day still bring up what was done to them. And Japan is the only one to refuse to acknowledge it. The medical horrors of the Japanese during the war is on par with Mengele and his crew. Had Japan not have invaded China, they would not have been embargoed.
I think some of the best Alt-History stories are framed around the setting as opposed to solely about it. A world where Japan was victorious in the Pacific for example, feels more real when it's seen through the eyes of a Kyoto business man in a trip abroad vs a play by play of events
Most folks are completely ok living in Omelas. So nothing happened. World War II being the creation myth of the modern world is interesting because it is both a literal Combat Myth, and a version of the Classic Combat myth where an old god is threatened by chaos monster, and a young upstart god goes to bat, kills the chaos monster and then builds the world out of the guts of the slain monster.
It changed the world in every way. As an example, because conflict what transformed from two opposing sides to good versus evil, partisanship and terrorism became an accepted form of fighting. While just generations before, during the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71, such actions were despised by both sides and would immediately lead to summary execution no matter who caught you. Fun fact: Winston Churchill admits to being a war criminal with his actions in the Second Boer War. He was there as a war correspondent. But when his train was derailed and attacked, he took charge of the situation as he had been a Cavalry Officer in both India and Sudan. So, as a civilian and without a uniform, he took charge of the situation. He was captured, and while walking he subtly got rid of his pistol bullets to not be caught with a weapon. It was fully within the rights of the Boers to have him executed for this. But, considering the fact that he was the son of a well-respected Parliamentarian. And, the fact that he was a descendant of John Churchill, the First Duke of Marlborough, they let him live and placed him in a POW camp. From which, he was able to escape by train. Hid in a mine owned by an Englishman. And then got on another train and escaped to Portuguese Mozambique. Returning home as a national idol, and catapulted his political career. But with the Second World War, we started seeing the crimes of old become an accepted form of fighting. And we now see it as a crime that the Germans arrested and punished people who would have been seen as criminals just years prior. This has left us in a dark pickle. As we allowed, legitimized, and even hail terrorist activity. We saw a rise in just those activities. It is also problematic, because when you moralize your own position and your own actions. When you merge your views with virtue itself. True horrors emerge. You can now do anything against anyone because you are in the right, and they are in the wrong. When you make your enemy to be nothing but Orcs of Mordor, you can do anything you want against them. Because having the ability to justify any action, every action will be justified. And anyone who dares to voice their disapproval, is automatically seen as an Orc sympathizer.
I don't know how I feel about Omelas as a take away type of story I get the feeling that sometimes the people who "walk-away" either fall off a cliff, step on a landmine, or even just create another omela
I remember seeing this advertised on the cover the TV schedule booklet that used to come with the Sunday paper when I was a kid. Never saw it though. Makes me think a bit of Turtledove's later novel "In the Presence of Mine Enemies" which started as a short story about a secret Jewish family living in a triumphant globe bestriding Germany which grew into the novel involving the collapse of the regime in the style of the 1991 Soviet collapse.
“ no one’s going to war over something that happened to others over 20 years ago “. My brother in Christ. The forever wars constantly happening on behalf of isreal is exactly what we’ve been doing since the end of ww2
Isreal won ww2. The rest of us lost. Even a small glance at logic makes the Hallofcoats fall apart. If they had intended to kill people they wouldn’t have had concerts and swimming pools and maternity wards!
You’re confusing pretext with material interests, true motivations and causes. Israel functions on “behalf” of the material economic interests of the U.S. ruling class 1%. It was handed off at the end of WWII from the British for whom it served the same purpose since Balfour Declaration at the wrap-up of WWI back in 1917. The U.S. regards it as an “unsinkable aircraft carrier” from which to project U.S. power in the whole region via a proxy. Which explains the constant unshakable loyalty to that aircraft carrier, no matter how badly the captain and crew behaves to others in the area. It must be understood as an expression of U.S. policy. Even after the U.S. becomes oil and energy self-sufficient (which it already is thanks to fracking being accepted now across both political parties no matter the damage to US citizens and the communities) … the U.S. economic ruling class must be able to deny the (oil) resources in the region to their major geopolitical adversary … China … and now to a much lesser extent Russia as well as anyone else who might think about grabbing exclusive control of the region for themselves. People really must stop the ethno-analysis. Follow the money as they say … use economic class analysis and material economic interests as the foundation for your analysis and you’ll understand why people and nations do what they do far better and more realistically.
I always thought the movie was far too optimistic in its ending. In the real world, Western journalists actively helped cover up the Holodomor and keep it out of the public consciousness. George Orwell himself thought that truth about the Ukrainian famine was a lost cause. A world more friendly to the Nazis would have done something similar.
it is a scary world we live in where all our heroes can do is die slightly less badly. I think I would like to see more old fashioned heroes, but politics makes pigs of us all I suppose.
This isn’t too different from how the United States, UK and France rehabilitated Turkey in the wake of WWI. Once the Kemalist govement came to power and both sides came to a political agreement, any mention of the genocide of Ottoman Turkish minorities was basically gone until revived in the 1960’s.
A good video... makes one realize why various Soviet atrocities, such as the Holodomor and the Red Terror, have been forgotten in the popular imagination over time.
Oh yeah, I remember liking Fatherland quite a bit. Really good alternate history novel. I liked how true it played its story to the world it had constructed, even though I don't remember if we're ever told exactly how Germany won the war. And the ending was sort of reminiscent of For Whom the Bell Tolls.
This question you posed, “how far would you be willing to go, in pursuit of justice for people long dead”, reminds me of something I learned years ago. Specifically, the visceral gut punch I received when I learned of the bombing of Dresden. That American and British bombers took part in it. This wasn’t something that was ever covered in school. Nothing even came close. I felt ashamed. Betrayed, almost. This, and several other events during WWII, sent me down a rabbit hole. I thought we were the “good guys”. How could we take part in something so horrible? I’ve learned so much more outside of school, about historical events and such, than I ever did inside. Doing my own research or by watching videos on RUclips and other sources. From creators like yourself. Your channel, and a few others, are like finding a breath of fresh air in a world clogged with dust and smoke. A few of them were booted into obscurity over the years. I may not have agreed with their assessments, but boy did they make me rethink things. The truth is a bitter pill to swallow.
Yes what you said is very true. In HS I had an English teacher (1 of the maybe 3/4 teachers/prof that taught me how to actually learn in all of HS& College. Likely no accident 75% of them were Literature teachers)who was also head of the English department of the entire school & thus determined curriculum. Every student from honors to remedial read Slaughterhouse Five. The decision to include that book has produced an untold number of illuminating points in the darkness. I read that book my Sophomore year in HS all the way back in 1990(fuck I'm old now,damnit!) and I literally wept. And then I saw The Greatest Story Never Told. I have relatives who were in WW2 & had heard stories about how most of the Allied soldiers thought the Russians were the real enemy so I was prepared for some things. But not seeing Women literally crucified. Watching that movie you think there is no fucking way there can be any more wars or conflicts. This was so bad you couldn't not learn. But... And as we correspond we truly sit at the closest point to a WW3 there has ever been. I don't know what can be said after that. Be safe and God Bless 🐕
Yup. My thoughts exactly when i read it in the early 00s. I was studying German in college, had worked in the library, and the library had a lot of books written in nazi Germany, enough to freak out the Germans on campus. And all the journals, physically. An early edition of many dark books were just dusty things on a shelf. Freedom is nice
Kind of reminds me of "V for Vendetta" (the graphic novel, not the movie), where one of the key characters is a police officer investigating the bombings carried out by 'V.' He serves the fascist government, and (at first) sees V as a dangerous terrorist & madman, but he's not a committed ideologue like a lot of the other government characters. More than that, he's old enough to remember what Britain was like before the war...
I think what I took from the book (never even heard about the movie) is just how ordinary life under a Nazi state would be - unless you were a target or made yourself one. That’s how all the bad stuff happens, because life didn’t stop. The kids have school and homework and sports and you have a job and a family to care for, there are sports to follow, etc. it’s too easy for people to ignore the ugliest parts of the Nazis because they’re “busy” and life looks ordinary. And the other part is that we’ve constructed a cartoon version of fascism that actually enables it. We are taught by television shows and movies that fascism is constant parades and angry speeches and flags with symbols on them. We think it’s going to be open and obvious and the world stops. And so as long as our fascist government doesn’t look like our cartoons, it’s going to slip by and most people won’t notice or care.
Its a very weak portrayal but in the context of the author growing up under the great lie he did a pretty good job with the context he was forced to work with, and no internet at his disposal to boot @@TheresaReichley
@@victorkreig6089 that’s the thing, he didn’t lie. We lied to ourselves about what these kinds of governments are like. If you watch any WW2 themed movies, Nazis were just nothing but parades and rallies and angry speeches and flags everywhere. In this version, life was barely noticeably worse. Life went on. Cops were busy with normal crimes. If you wanted to get involved you had to dig to find out about the ugly stuff they were doing.
There was a movie on Amazon... English detective looking for a murder under German rule...thought this was the movie, only faintly remembered reading part of the book.
The Man in the High Castle, the Amazon series at least, also adopts the idea of a much less visible Holocaust precisely due to the German victory. It happened, of course, but it's not common knowledge and only a select few know the details of what happened in the camps. As far as the average Reich denizen knows (and one of the main anti-heroes' wife), the European Jews were just resettled east, carted off somewhere out of sight. The truth is revolting even to at least of portion of Nazi higher-ups. Of course, it's even more revulsive once certain characters find out (SPOILERS!) that the Greater German Reich intends to implement a sequel in America (targeting African Americans, for example), once the cold war turned hot against Imperial Japan is won there.
It's been awhile since I watched the show but from what I picked up, American Blacks who ended up in American Reich territory either fled to the neutral zone or the Imperial Pacific States or were sent to concentration camps where they were killed. Obergruppenfuhrer Smith's daughter asked him if he knew any Black people when he was a child and, when he admitted that he did, his daughter asked where all the Black people went. Smith paused and, clearly lying, said they all went back to Africa. We saw in flashbacks in Season 1 that, as a member of the SS, Smith had participated in and overseen purges of "undesirables" in American cities. This included an infanticidal event in Cincinnati that gave one of his fellow overseers permanent PTSD. It was interesting to see that Smith wasn't a believer in the Reich's racial supremacy dogma. He wasn't a racist and he considered Himmler "a petty little dictator." However, he was willing to commit any evil act if it meant safety and prosperity for himself and his family. In the end, it was a motivation that ended up costing him his self-respect (after visiting "our" timeline, he realized he was the worst version of himself) and his son and wife.
Thanks for reminding us of this book. I wanted to disagree with you and the author and make the claim that somebody would remember the Holocaust. But the clip you have of Harris fairly refused that and I must admit that if we have the level of Holocaust denial that we have today with all the evidence that we have, then it is entirely possible that the incident would go down the memory hole if Nazi Germany had won.
The Romans in Gaul. The Mongols across Eurasia. The Counter-Reformation. The Spanish in Central America. The Han conquest of China. The Arab Slave Trade. The Triangular Trade. Selling White women as slaves in the American South in the 1850s. The terrorism of "freedom fighters". It is really just purely academic at this point. Nobody cares about the Catholic Church killing anyone who dared to read and translate the bible to their own language. Nobody cares about St. Bartholomew's Day massacre. Nobody cares about the complete eradication of entire civilizations at the hand of the Spanish. Nobody cares about the millennia of genocide at the hands of the Han to become the dominant race in China. Nobody cares about the mass enslavement and castration of Africans at the hands of the Arabs. Nobody wants to talk about the murders, kidnappings, and mass violence at the hands of people like Nelson Mandela. And nobody wants to talk about White slaves sold in the South, as it doesn't fit in either of the two narratives. Just as nobody cares about the fact that chocolate for the price and scale we have today, is only possible because of current day slavery. Just as nobody cares about the fact that the only reason we have reached the extreme Golden Age we live in today, is because of the mass enslavement of Southeast Asia. Without this, smart phones would not be possible. You can do a lot of crazy things when you enslave Billions upon Billions of people. And nobody cares.
To me I think history is no longer of any value to shape the present. They say those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it, yet if all our history is a bunch of lies used to prop up a mythology that benefits a regime, what difference does it make if we're versed in them or not? It's not that I don't think "truth" is a value, there's a reason why the first sin in the Bible was of a lie. However, if all truth is so heavily mixed in with lies as to be inextricable like mixing a glass of lemonade, where you can't ever separate the water from the lemon juice from the sugar from the little drop of poison added to it. The only reliable way not to die is not to drink it. There are a million atrocities in human history, I think it's a better question to ask why only the one going unnoticed would bother anyone, rather than asking if you yourself would be.
The soap hoax is the foundation all of our modern society is built on Without it our world would be very VERY different Lies havw consequences and you're living in one
Nice, I just re-watched this last week. Had the book when it came out. Like you, on this viewing I noticed that the uniforms really should have changed in three decades. But I let it pass as well.
@@feralhistorian Thanks. Been wanting to look at a possible "how" considering OTL the US and USSR were nowhere near "cordial" enough for it to happen :)
@@Michaelfatman-xo7gv Suspect it's more related to not wanting to have to deal with anyone elses "shite". Given that they mainly seem to have frozen the world "political pole's" situation (in their favor no less) I'd highly suspect something much more than just being "a series of treaties" creating it. Kind of head-canon that it took some event that threatened the world and so they got together to face the threat but ensured they'd always be on top. ("MIT Saves the World" kind of thing)
As usual, you've done a great video. Have you read Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle? I wonder what you think about it. Could be fodder for another series of videos like the Draka books.
Excellent analysis as usual. The book is far better than the HBO, with the right ending. Its also a plain good read, its biggest fault being the all the inferior AH works it inspired. BTW is that a Stargate patch?
These videos come out right before my first break, which also happens to be a WFH day. It's perfect. Are there any plans on covering Command and Conquer? Namely, how the Nod media manipulation campaign subplot is a bit... prescient these days.
I just discovered your channel, love your analysis. I would love to get your point of view on the Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect and the Children of Time series. Both interesting and weird (in their own way) science-fiction.
I have been meaning to cover Children of Time for almost a year now. Apparently I'm easily distracted. I haven't read Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect, but it's on my list now.
@@feralhistorian Thanks a lot. Just brace yourself for Metamorphosis. It's really weird and has deeply some unsettling parts. Keep going, you're doing great.
These ‘Hitler won the war’ alternate history stories tend not to interest me. I experienced how people view the same history in different ways when I was a child. It is likely the public wouldn’t have known about those camps if it weren’t for the embedded reporters, those were standard by then, but hadn’t been a proper thing until WW1, and a lot of their footage was staged. The Crimean war had some reporters, but not in the embedded sense. In Australia we knew a number of men who’d fought in WW2 and to them Churchill was a war criminal, I used to sit with them, and to hear them talk you’d think he’d executed australians personally. Then I came to the UK where the same man is a national hero, for pretty much the same reasons (being a ruthless S.O.B when the UK needed one) But, a Rutger Hauer movie I wasn’t aware existed, that I find interesting, the blu-ray has already been ordered. I’ll get the original Robert Harris book to compare them when I have some spare audible credits.
Churchill is the monster we were lied to about Hitler being The war ends and magically Dresden didn't happen The war ends and what he did to the Boers was never a thing The aussies knew what he did and that's why they hated him He was the definition of scum and the fact that in this modern era he's looked up to as someone to aspire to be is insane But that's what happens when information is curated
What I found most interesting about the HBO adaptation was its portrayal of Berlin. It has all the oversized monuments, but it's still a real city with boring apartment blocks and public transit.
@@feralhistorian The uniform thing you picked up on does indeed make little to no sense, there's no way they'd still be wearing uniforms from the early 40's still . I watch a lot of old movies, and in those you can see police uniforms changing in just twenty years. The UK Carry On comedy movie series are as much documentaries on how things were changing here as they were comedies, though this wasn't the intent.
Ultimately it would come to political convenience, if the government can ignore p.o.w's being held and worked in Vietnam because the alternative would make the wrong people look bad a president who sold himself on being a peacemaker might just hand off the folder to the c.i.a and shake hands make peace and know they have another chip in the game of politics.
One concept of an alternate WW2 story I've been thinking about a lot, both in a fictional story sense and a real life sense, is what would happen if Germany never betrayed the USSR?
Well it definitely wouldn’t have happened since Nazism and Facsism mor broadly was built on a hatred of Communism and the need for living space to the east
Betrayal implies they were ever in a pact It was mostly Hitler saying "look we're busy and we can't have these bloodthirsty mongrels just itching to attack us, let's put up a little treaty to get them to fuck off for a while" Stalin looked at it and said "we've still got a LOT of peasants to rape and murder, I wouldn't mind a good excuse to keep going"
I've given the "what if they won" some thought, and I came to the conclusion that the Party would decline in popularity, like they all do, but more importantly, Atlanticism would die and power would shift to the Mediterranean.
"Atlanticism would die and power would shift to the Mediterranean." Geography does not support this. You are correct that the party would inevitably decline, as everything that brought people to it would have been achieved. But geography is geography. The United States would still become the economic power that it is today. Perhaps even more so, as they put a lot on the line and paid for the global order and to become the global police. A Greater Germany would fare better than the Soviet Union did. And if the events of Fatherland did happen, we would still live in a world in 2024 where the whole world would be dominated by these two superpowers. And as Germany is a lot closer to Britain than the Soviet Union was, the whole Anglo world would probably be more integrated than it already is today. With the British economy being entirely integrated into the American. Also, Germany is closer to the West in culture and language than the Soviet Union was. A Cold War would be inevitable for some time. But while eternal peace and coexistence with the Soviet Union would have been impossible. A permanent reconciliation between the United States and Germany would probably happen at some point. Pretty soon the new people in charge would be people with no connection to the war. And so, the newer generations look at the world very differently than the people who fought in it. Details would define this of course. How Christians be treated in Germany after the war would probably define US-German relations more than the entire Holocaust.
For a better understanding of Nazi Germany, I recommend "The Order of the Death's Head". Try to get an older copy, the newer additions have been censored.
Pretty apt. Man in the High Castle is over the top, flashy, and did I say over the top. While Fatherland is slow and subdued. It's like the difference between the British and the American version of Kitchen Nightmares. The British version is quiet, calm, and respectful in quality. While the American version is not watchable.
What a lot of writers and readers misunderstand, especially in the alternate history realm, is that actions and events are caused as a series of reactions. The United States has a big racial "thing". Some would immediately jump to the conclusion that this is the case because the United States is racist as an entity. But in reality, the United States has a long history of it, because it was the only Western country that had a large racial minority. So the United States has a history of segregation and race riots and the like. While countries like Denmark does not. The problem with something like Man in the High Castle, is that it pictures this eternal monolithic structure of evil incarnate. But this misses the fact that the first thing that would happen after the end of the war, is that babies are born with no connection to it. Then two decades later, they enter adulthood. And 50 years after the war, they are the dominant bulk of the population. So, generations and generations after a German victory in the Second World War, would start looking very different. Every pillar that made Nazism would be gone. The humiliation of the Treaty of Versailles would have been rectified. Germany is the hegemon of Eurasia. Bolshevism has been destroyed. And there are no more jews left on the continent. And as every pillar that made them possible are gone, so too the country and the culture would start to change. And with the inevitable death of the Fuhrer, things would have to change. Hitler, in the event of a German victory, would be seen as the greatest German that has ever lived. He chased the French out of the Rhineland. He simply plucked and annexed the ancient lands of Austria under Berlin. He made a laughing stock out of the Democracies by first grabbing the Sudetenland, and then just taking all of Bohemia. And then, in Fatherland, he launched his army and defeated the Soviet army on every front, capturing the three cities of Leningrad, Stalingrad, and Moscow. Making the Ural Mountains not only the border of Europe, but the border of Germany. He would have been seen as a divine figure. Much more than the cult of personality of Stalin and Mao. So as long as he still lives, the system and the culture would be held in place. But, with the inevitability of time, he would die. And the eternal problem of succession in an Autocratic system presents itself. If, as in Fatherland, he lives to reach advanced age. Then there are none of his war years who could take over. Which means you need someone who never saw the war to take over. Which presents much the same problems as when Oliver Cromwell passed away in England. His death would cause the last pillar of Nazism to crumble. And the system would have to Democratize. Not go full Social Democracy with Universal Suffrage, no. But a process of Democratization would inevitably occur. ------- Now, for the United States in Fatherland. As well as what would happen if the papers were to be released to the world. First, just as the Second World War shaped the United States. So too, when altering the War, it would alter the United States. And Greater Germany would be doing the same things that the Soviet Union did during the Cold War. Secret funding of Universities. Interacting and meddling with various groups in society. Etc etc. While also, the political divide of the United States would be heavily affected. As the "Left" and "Right" only became a thing after WW2. So, how would the political landscape of the United States look after a German victory in Europe? The isolationist Republicans would probably have a big air of "I told you so". While New Deal Democrats would probably shatter. Truman becoming this humiliating figure. And also, this would obviously give great vigor to American Nazis. People like Charles Lindbergh would probably have a very different trajectory in this timeline. As well as many others. And the Klan would become a very different organization. But you still have the Leftists. You will have Academic refugees from Russia taking shelter in the United States. And Joseph McCarthy would still be hunting Communists, but also hunting Nazis as well. With the United States being a "First Past the Post" system, this means you will inevitably have two great coalitions within the political system. Which dictates in this situation. Segregation was still in place and vitally important to the Democratic Party. But with the fall of Truman and New Dealers, while also having a surge of American Nazis, it becomes very difficult to pin and point every political faction into which side they would be in. The entire political system would have to reshuffle, as has happened multiple times. But what it inevitable, is that some form of "Right" and "Left" would naturally develop. So, what would happen if the Holocaust was revealed to the world? The two different sides would react differently, according to their view of the Cold War and their view of Germany. One side would condemn it, while the other side would brush it aside. With the brushers aside, a faction within would most likely outright deny it as pure radical fantasy. It would be a political tool for quite some time. Some Ronald Reagan character would perhaps enter the stage at some point, and he would make a big deal out of it. But then you would also have a Jimmy Carter character who would go soft. But then again, these two were heavily affected by the specific situation in the Soviet Union. It's easy to be bullish against a falling Soviet Union. And there probably would not be food shortages in Greater Germany as there was in the Soviet Union during Carter. As much of the Cold War was pretty split in our timeline, it would obviously be split in the Fatherland timeline as well. But instead of having Soviet and Chinese funding and social infiltration, we would have Nazi Germany. Which would completely upend and change the development of the United States. The history of Hippies and the history of Desegregation would be completely changed. How exactly is difficult to say. We have to remember the chain of reactions. Perhaps America would be more Liberal as a reaction to Nazis. Or perhaps far less Liberal, instead taking on characteristics of the enemy. And for the rest of the world, events such as Decolonization would be completely changed in a most fundamental way. With countries like South Africa having a completely different reality in this post-ww2 scenario. As there would be nobody to push for the end of Apartheid, the whole region would be forever altered.
In addition to my comment. Just as the Soviet Union funded and organized Leftist movements in the United States during the Cold War. And just as how in Fatherland the United States would be funding resistance movements and opposing groups. Germany would obviously be funding the Klan and White Identity movements. But they would also be funding many of the same groups that the Soviet Union was funding. Purely for the sake of causing chaos within their Cold War enemy. So, in a Fatherland scenario, I do believe that internal violence in the United States would be higher than how it was in real life. Simply because of instead of having two groups, the Federal Government on one side and the broad Civil Rights Movement on the other. You would still have those two, but you would also have a far more well-funded well-organized White Identity Groups thrown into the mix.
I’ve said before that a 1980s Nazi Germany would probably be known for budget deficits and vague apologies. I agree that some degree of liberalization would occur in a post-Hitler Nazi Germany, but I’m not convinced it would involve democratization. Partly because there was an ideological rejection of any sort of parliamentary process with the whole concept tied to a top-down Fuhrerprinzip, as opposed to the Soviet Union for example where the idea of equality and collective decision-making was woven into the ideology even if not in practice. Any sort of real democratic reform would have been a longer trip for the Nazis. And they had a lot of aggressive fiefdoms with overlapping authority. If any one of them relaxed, another would just gobble up some of its turf. It structurally discourages any move toward openness or democratic reform. And of course today we can see a steady de-democratization in the US and Europe. Or rather a faux-democracy where the forms are maintained but the substance of actual rule by the people is absent. Candidates are chosen by political/economic cabals with their own interests and messaging is largely controlled through them, maintaining the appearance of a democratic process as cover for a much more top-down, unaccountable state managerial class that actually runs things regardless of who is elected. Economic and foreign policy stays more or less constant, with the democratic action being over a select range of domestic issues. While the show has to be maintained in the US and Europe today, the Nazis wouldn’t need to prop up a democratic facade. They never pretended it was important. They’d probably have to establish a succession process and likely reduce the Fuhrer’s power through something like a central committee, but I see a lot of resistance to going any further than that. What I would expect is a move away from the open militarism of the 1930s-40s toward something more like the post-war US, with a massive military-industrial-complex but most of the actual offensive moves being through coups and proxy wars. I doubt that American political alignments would change that much since we were already locked into becoming a more top-down national-security state by the end of the war, I’d expect the details of the 1960s to play out differently but the overall themes of youth rebelling against the war machine (wherever the war happened to be) and a related civil rights movement to be similar. I do think you’re absolutely right about Africa being drastically different. I could absolutely see both apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia not only surviving but being trading partners with Germany. Not only would Germany be likely to at the very least openly trade fuel and arms with them simply on the ideologically baked-in racial grounds, but without a Soviet Bloc backing the guerrillas the balance would be heavily tilted in favor of the white governments. There’s also some possibilities for China turning out much differently. Germany aiding Japan if they stay in the war, or if they’re out then Chiang’s nationalists have options to ask for aid from either Germany or the US against the communists, while Mao would be denied an outside backer. Some version of the modern world but with a major European colonial power bloc still in southern Africa and China that’s more like a big Taiwan than the PRC starts to see some major divergence regardless of what Germany and America do.
@@feralhistorian On China, I think China would be largely the same. But with different colors. When Taiwan was established, it was not exactly what we would consider anything like a liberal society. Just like South Korea, they naturally stayed in their more natural autocratic ways. China either breaks apart into warring warlord states, or it is united by an overly autocratic central imperial center. When I say Democratization, I mean a very limited process of people on the top having a say. More like early America, where only a couple percent of the population could vote. The problem is that in a geography like Germany, wealth and power is going to be spread around. A natural Middle Class exists. And levels of representation would naturally develop. Just as it did. Nobody would call the German Empire under the Kaiser democratic. Yet, it did develop democratic institutions. Not at all any sort of broad system. But a highly limited elitist form of government. The Soviet Union followed the Russian way of doing things because it existed within the same geography. With the same realities and the same problems. Germany is very different. Just as you had an Autocratic Kaiser with the final say and was the one to appoint the Prime Minister, so too you can retain the position of Fuhrer, but with a Parliamentarian system where issues can be addressed, is a natural thing to implement. Even if only top party men, industrialists, military officers, and certain skilled professionals, have the right to actually vote. Just as the Western and Central European Monarchs saw the natural growth of Parliaments during their time. On the other side, having a Parliamentary system allows the people to blow off steam. When every issue is either militarily stamped down or enacted by marching in the street with a general strike... It's just not very efficient. While even limited Democratic systems, does a great deal of societal soothing. And, voting grants a level of legitimacy that "Royal blood" can't do anymore. Even if you have a highly limited system of suffrage, like the election of George Washington. Or are more manufactured theatre like now. It legitimizes in a way that the following top-men would need in a broadly wealthy system of central Europe would need for the system to endure. Germany is not a land of serfs living on rocky soil in a terrible climate. The way I see it, is that the position of Fuhrer, where the Fuhrer is all completely supreme as it was under Hitler, was always going to be a temporary thing. Even if by temporary I mean decades and decades. But a more natural equilibrium, I do think, would naturally occur.
I hope at some stage you take a look at the Vorkosigan Saga. Falling Free was interesting but peripheral. I could take it or leave it. The real storyline, 600 years later, jumps between related characters giving them room to breath. I found myself initially disappointed about each change of focus only be delighted with the result. Lois McMaster Bujold masters well written science fiction in this series.
We've substituted the ending of the book with the reality of the Soviet Union and NOBODY being held to account for the millions of dead by the Soviet regime.
What's funny is that I was thinking "Getting about time for a Feral drop." and then look what materialized in my feed. Anyway, while I admit it is a bit of an overdone topic, German Victory is just one of those scenarios that we all kind of think about and I'm even drafting a timeline for (your bit on the Middle East being interesting as that's something I had to think a lot about for my version of it). I will admit to Fatherland being an inspiration for my timeline with it having a lot of similarities of mixing Hitler's dreams with the Cold War reality, like in it, Generalplan Ost is discovered and observed by U2s till one got splashed near Crimea in 57. Though I love your idea of the Germans Bureauocracizing all of German society. I may take some inspiration from that.
Aside from non-German folks engaging in an increasingly violent insurgency both inside cities and in the countryside, Germans fleeing from Eastern Europe in droves, the economy tanking and everyone being afraid of being sent out east to Russia, it's a normal place...
I want to amend your statement about governments not caring about atrocities unless it's in their interest to do so. I think the American reaction to discovering the camps was sincere. But I agree that no government cares about atrocities when it's not in their interest to do so. And we see that in the headlines every single day these days.
It really depends as to which party wants to use it for their own ends. In the novel, the US were funding the rump Soviet Union so whoever preceded Kennedy were hostile to the Nazis...
The middle east in a germany-wins-in-europe scenario is interesting to think about. I do not doubt that whatever might be written on the subject would be controversial but also fascinating. Especially depending on how you decide the pacific war ends up (in all likelyhood japan is still defeated by the americans, even if victory isn't as absolute as in OTL)
Considering the real world intervention of Germany in Syria and Iraq in WWII also Himmler interest in Islam as "warriors religion" and the willingess of Arab nationalist to work with the Germans against the old colonial powers - then in AH, if the Africa Corps and Operation Blau had been successful, the Turks/Arab/Persian groups and states would have come under German influence quite easily.
Lolno If Deutschland wins Europe it's because that bastard FDR loses power or is thwarted in forcing the Japanese to start the pacific war in the first place The middle east would he in a MUCH better position if we had never been forced into war in the first place, not just because the jews never steal their land but because the anglos aren't the ones in charge of the region and therefore can't keep those laughably bad border lines they drew there after The Great War The Germans were actually very good at understanding Africa and it's internal geopolitics which is why their colonies were so good, there is no way in hell they wouldn't have done a better job reorganizing thr middle east(as long as the Italians weren't given any power to do so, they sucked at it)
@@fabianherrmann6398 Racial supremacy was a cornerstone in Nazi ideology. Most likely, the entire region would be carved up as German oil extraction Reichskommissariats. These desert lands would serve only one thing. Put oil in the pipeline and get it to Germany. The lives of the people would mean nothing. Remember the memes that came out of 9/11, about turning the entire region into a parking lot? What do you think the unrestrained victorious Nazis would do the moment somebody opposed them? You don't need natives to extract the oil. In fact, they are in the way. The oil would flow a lot safer and a lot smoother without anyone living there at all.
I can see when you look up Josef Buhler it comes up with this image. I have no idea why. Again, not Josef Buhler, but rather Martin Bormann. Different Nazi.
I am part native American and African American decent in my genetic lineage, and I've said since I was a boy that if the Nazis had won, we would care about the holocaust as much as we do what was done to us, or tge Armenians, or any other genocided people, little to nothing, and people would tell them to get over it!. I speak from experience!.
It reminds me ln a way of America. Decent people not wanting to acknowledge what was done to the indigenous peoples here for example. And while we are fully aware of it we sleep soundly trying to believe that we are the world's good guys. Even though our actions paint another story entirely.
Sure. And you could substitute a number of things for treatment of Native Americans. Plenty. Even now you could substitute the actual populace which had an ability to reconcile & compartment being in the crosshairs of its own government. Despite the presence of an alleged Constitution. Came to the conclusion awhile ago there's no good guys, just bad guys and those not as brutal. Be safe and God Bless 🐕
This just might be my perspective as someone who was born after 2000. If Germany "won" ww2, would anyone *actually* care about the hall-of-cost ? I don't think so. Reason being- look at the Native American genocide, no one *actually* cares about it not even Native Americans who extist today. At best it's a fringe historical fixation or a political talking point when its convenient, but no one really cares that it happened. In the logic of this AltHis story, at best, it would be a rallying point for Slavic rebels, if anything.
You are entirely correct that nobody would care. Now about the Slavic peoples, it entirely depends. Many of the Southern Slavs were quite enthusiastic about working with the Germans. And we could easily see a situation where many would view themselves as sort of "Secondary Aryans". Similarly to how it was with the German and Scandinavian Lutherans who migrated to the Calvinistic United States in the early 1800s. They were not seen as full "WASP", but they were pretty close. And seen as brothers in comparison to the alien Catholics. With the Germans picking sides in the region, the various groups would hold differing views. The place isn't suited for any sort of German Lebensraum. And it would take a really long time filling Belarus and Ukraine. So the Slavic attitude would depend more on who sided with the Germans and who well on the wrong side. With the ones on the wrong side being... disappeared. While the victors becoming "Secondary Aryans".
Read the book when it came out, never saw the movie. Happy endings are fairy tales we want to believe, because the reality is usually so different. But the movie ending, "those who look and do Nazi"???!! Seeing the clips of Ruger Hauer caused me to recall "Inside the Third Reich". If you might be interested, compare Speer's semi-accurate story with Sereny's "Albert Speer: His Battle With Truth."
I hate "What if the Nazis won WW2?" alternate history stories, like I am seriously damn tired of seeing them. I find the people who write them are very weird and suspicious, pushing Nazi fanfiction. This book by Robert Harris still makes me narrow my eyes a bit, but I'm glad it has a genuine story to tell detached from the usual bullshit of this alternate history sub-genre.
One of the great tragedies/ mistakes was after the fall of the Soviet Union was to not have a Nuremberg style trial for the communist leadership in Eastern Europe.
It would have been pointless Nuremberg was a bullshit show trial for revenge porn and thr majority of people responsible for what the society did during ww2, prior to it, and after were thankfully dead due to the machinations of their own sick government and society.
How would that have even worked? What nations would have the legitimacy to prosecute such a thing? By the 1990s, the United States was up to its own armpits in blood bringing Pizza Huts to the "unfree" nations of the world and Clinton's State Department activities resulted in a massive jump in Russian mortality rates.
American men who fight for custody statistically tend to get it. But most don't, because most men prefer working only 8 hours a day to giving full-time childcare.
@@victorkreig6089 If the father is the better alternative, they get custody. Judges consider mothers to be better better at parenting infants and the young typically because the mother was the primary at-home caregiver due to the father working. Judges also believe working men can bounce back easier, financially, than a non-working woman, and can pay child support. If you have a stay-at-home-with-the-kids dad, a working mother, and a divorce, the father typically gets the kids. These are all common factors in divorce cases. Don't have to like it. Just the way it is until there's complete parity of the percentage of fulltime working men and women who are also parents.
Xavier March is a troubled man. The fact he still remains a detective (because he refuses promotions) and his job makes him physically and thus emotionally distant from his wife and son played a big part in that...
The japanese manga/ anime Jin-Roh would be another interesting ''alternate history'' story, that features different security/police forces who are antagonizing each other. It's also set in the 1960's in a Japan that was taken over by their Nazi allies.
you're the only other person I've ever heard mention jin-roh...🐺
I hardily 2nd this!!! The entire Kerberos Saga is fascinating.
@@ekurisona663 I wouldn't even know about Jin-Roh if there wasn't an amv with And one- panzermensch.
*NSDAP
Nazi is an invented propaganda name not a name they gave themselves
Japan was part of the allies in Jin-Roh
US v nazi Cold War scenario is always so much more interesting then the man in the high castle scenario .
TNO is my favorite version of this kind of world with its three way Cold War and warlord Russia
Man in the high castle was written by a man raised on propaganda and lies about what happened during the war and who was doing what
Therefore the Saturday morning villian levels it gets to is going to be silly no matter how many liberties you take with it
Personally, I like TNO more as a silly version of such a timeline with a preference to Old TNO. I personally think that TWR did the concept better seriously and am currently taking my own stab at it in as a very early timeline and draft.
@spartanalex9006 i always thought that TNO was probably too drastically pessimistic, or at least riding full soviet propaganda about the regime, not that I think moderates would really survive in a fascist state, but there's not really a liberal faction, it's always "what can we do to be as consciously evil as possible instead of semi benign"
Burgundy is a national death cult at least but there isn't, essentially, the reichs post office life experience
You're one of my newest favorite channels. I've been going through your library over the last few weeks. I love your breakdowns, analysis and historical lessons. I really appreciate the work you do. Thanks!
Bigtime.
I only saw the film.
"little bastard called the gestapo"'
Glad to see the book had some historic accuracy!
Your opening analysis on the place of WW2 in the creation of the modern world and the myth of Nazism as a 'singular evil' is spot on. I expect you will attract a lot of criticism over that, but well done for saying what many of us have been thinking for years.
What's as scary or even scarier is you can't discuss the possibility or you may face the possibility of jail in certain nations.
That's more telling than any story does.
Wise up people.
This was the first Alternate History novel I ever read not written by an author named Turtledove or Forstchen. I was just entering my 20s at the time, and it was my introduction to a more realistic portrayal of amoral bureaucracies and the self-interest of populations. At the time, the open-ended nature of the ending left me a bit confused and deflated, but of course I now understand how much more realistic and sophisticated it was than the work of the other authors I'd enjoyed in my teens.
As you say, HBO's adaptation was fine for what it was, a less sophisticated but still engaging story. To this day, though, I have to laugh at the fact that the screenwriters decided we needed to see Rutger Haur die in the rain.
Again.
Knowing the anti-Semitism prevalent in the US before and after the war, there would be those who think that the Nazis had the right idea. Most would just shrug their shoulders and move on.
Patton literally said "we fought the wrong enemy" during his brief post war life
@@AndreLuis-gw5ox To be fair, such a sentiment refers mostly to how the end of the war enabled Communist control of eastern Europe-the Iron Curtain and all that.
@Remington53 Most of the Communist pre Stalin Purge were of Jewish variety I honestly forget the percentage of bolshevik party members who were of Jewish percent but I would guess around 70%
@@Remington53 It wasn't just the US though. The ruling British elites of Churchill's era weren't fond of Jews and many were openly hostile and antisemitic.
@@thealaskanseparatist6786 Many Jews that the Red Army liberated from the camps in Eastern Europe - such as the parents of Norman Finkelstein - would not tolerate criticism of Stalin, despite the purges of Trotskyite Jews from the Communist Party during the '30s and in the government of the '50s. They never disputed that the purges happened but they placed having the Soviets literally save their lives as being more important than anything else Stalin had done.
It's a good thought, because what virtue is there, really, in throwing living bodies onto the fire to honor dead ones?
It reminds me of Gandalf in Lord of the rings, though reversed somewhat in its implications, "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
Really appreciate you including the bit about ww2 being the foundational myth of the modern era. A book "return of the strong gods" goes into this quite well, but definitely isnt althist.
I agree that the book was much better than the movie - mainly due to its "Hollywood Ending."
One movie scene in particular was when Pili was looking at an American magazine (I think it was "Life" or "Look,") that his father had confiscated from Charlie McGuire, featuring an advertisement for the March of Dimes, and depicted a boy with crutches who had survived polio. Pili said he thought it was sad that the boy was in that condition, and asked in all innocence why the Americans simply didn't "put him to sleep" the way Germany would have done. Xavier March replies with a story about an angel that didn't really answer the question. In my opinion, this was a classic "missed opportunity" that the screenplay adaptation wasted.
Thanks for your thoughtful analysis!
No pressure, but I'm looking forward to your take on S. M. Stirling's "Peshawar Lancers" in the hopefully near future . . . .
196th Like.
Peshawar Lancers is next up on my list of "things I've been meaning to read for 20+ years"
@@feralhistorian Stirling again? How about all the Stirling books and series?
I remember watching this when it aired. Reminded me of the film adaptation of 'Gorky Park', with it's look behind the brutalist facade of an authoritarian state to see the very regular people that populate it. I thought of both films when the short-lived show 'Counterpart', set in contemporary Berlin, aired a few years back. Always wondered if that show was canned in 2019 due to it's prescience...featured a 'big flu' of unnamed origin.
🤔🤔🤔
Peace vs Justice is a very pertinent theme - in many domains. Would we risk WW3 and billions, to give justice for the Holocaust is a thought provoking idea, but even in current days, many conflicts (from Ukraine to Gaza) can be framed in similar ways. You can have one or the other, but not both.
Most pertinently, social justice for past crimes.
Do we have reparations (both direct and affirmative action) and "justice" or "injustice" and peace?
Both Justice and Injustice are in inverted commas because arguments can be made for either situation being just and unjust.
How is this even a question? Starting WW3 is evil for any reason. Especially for the sake of revenge. It would be like china starting WW3 to avenge the native americans.
In the book Starship Troopers there is a scene in OCS questioning if it is moral to resume a war over unreleased POWs or even just one POW held captive, even though dead and suffering would restart, and the guy might not be worthy or even die in the meantime. It would be more than justified is the consent in the class, but the written proof in symbolic logic that is given as assignment is sadly never mentioned again.
Will be getting this book just to see how Nazi Germany survived WWII.
Don't bother
@@phoenixzappa7366 why? Explain.
IIRC correctly you don’t really find that out. You’re just dropped in the middle of the 1960s and this guy’s investigation.
Spoiler:
The book states that Operation Blau succeded in taking the Oilfields and cut off the Volga River, thus the Red Army ran out of fuel. Also the UK got starved out through Uboot warfare. Then the US dropped the bomb on Japan ending the pacific war but a V3-Rocket exploded over New York, showing the US that they could be hit if they came for Europe. The stalemate turned into a status quo.
@@fabianherrmann6398was the author aware that the Germans had their own little atom splitting project going as well?
I also find it ironic that the Nagisaki bomb wiped out the japanese' own nuclear research that was arguably relatively close to a solution at the time of being turned to dust
The US "threat" advisory system is really brilliant, much better than the one in the novel. Having 5 levels rather than 4 it can be raised and lowered for effect without ever reading as low or severe.
One of my favorite books. I love Harris, his Cicero books were great too. I think you nailed it in this video (you seem to in all your videos).
two things Feral Historian
1. this is very similar to how america overlook many japanese atrocities after ww2 for their corporation after the war against the USSR
2. did you ever heard of the HOI4 mod The New Order: Last Days of Europe and if you did what do you think on it's take on a three-way Cold War in the 60s between Nazi Germany and Einheitspakt to Empire of Japan and Co-Prosperity Sphere and finely the United States of America and Organization of Free Nations
and how in this Scenario germany won the war but lost the peace and ended up with ruin economy and angry and unhappy german populous and also collapse into a civil war after hitler die
"Many Japanese atrocities"
There really aren't that many, and a lot of them are blown out of proportion to hide away the fact that just as many Asian countries did the exact same thing and more often than not worse.
The reason we so called "hand wave" is because the pacific war was literally our fault and we ended up murdering an insane amount of japanese as a result(along with lots of people in Asia dying who wouldn't have otherwise)
@@victorkreig6089 By "our fault", I assume you mean the United States. And if by Britain and America sinking their navies after World War One, then I would agree with you. But the Japanese invaded China entirely on their own.
And if China was the only country making a big deal out of the events of war, then I would agree with you.
But we do have South Korea. Who to this day still bring up what was done to them. And Japan is the only one to refuse to acknowledge it.
The medical horrors of the Japanese during the war is on par with Mengele and his crew.
Had Japan not have invaded China, they would not have been embargoed.
I think some of the best Alt-History stories are framed around the setting as opposed to solely about it. A world where Japan was victorious in the Pacific for example, feels more real when it's seen through the eyes of a Kyoto business man in a trip abroad vs a play by play of events
Most folks are completely ok living in Omelas.
So nothing happened.
World War II being the creation myth of the modern world is interesting because it is both a literal Combat Myth, and a version of the Classic Combat myth where an old god is threatened by chaos monster, and a young upstart god goes to bat, kills the chaos monster and then builds the world out of the guts of the slain monster.
It changed the world in every way. As an example, because conflict what transformed from two opposing sides to good versus evil, partisanship and terrorism became an accepted form of fighting. While just generations before, during the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71, such actions were despised by both sides and would immediately lead to summary execution no matter who caught you.
Fun fact: Winston Churchill admits to being a war criminal with his actions in the Second Boer War. He was there as a war correspondent. But when his train was derailed and attacked, he took charge of the situation as he had been a Cavalry Officer in both India and Sudan. So, as a civilian and without a uniform, he took charge of the situation. He was captured, and while walking he subtly got rid of his pistol bullets to not be caught with a weapon.
It was fully within the rights of the Boers to have him executed for this. But, considering the fact that he was the son of a well-respected Parliamentarian. And, the fact that he was a descendant of John Churchill, the First Duke of Marlborough, they let him live and placed him in a POW camp. From which, he was able to escape by train. Hid in a mine owned by an Englishman. And then got on another train and escaped to Portuguese Mozambique. Returning home as a national idol, and catapulted his political career.
But with the Second World War, we started seeing the crimes of old become an accepted form of fighting. And we now see it as a crime that the Germans arrested and punished people who would have been seen as criminals just years prior.
This has left us in a dark pickle. As we allowed, legitimized, and even hail terrorist activity. We saw a rise in just those activities.
It is also problematic, because when you moralize your own position and your own actions. When you merge your views with virtue itself. True horrors emerge. You can now do anything against anyone because you are in the right, and they are in the wrong.
When you make your enemy to be nothing but Orcs of Mordor, you can do anything you want against them.
Because having the ability to justify any action, every action will be justified. And anyone who dares to voice their disapproval, is automatically seen as an Orc sympathizer.
I don't know how I feel about Omelas as a take away type of story I get the feeling that sometimes the people who "walk-away" either fall off a cliff, step on a landmine, or even just create another omela
I remember seeing this advertised on the cover the TV schedule booklet that used to come with the Sunday paper when I was a kid. Never saw it though. Makes me think a bit of Turtledove's later novel "In the Presence of Mine Enemies" which started as a short story about a secret Jewish family living in a triumphant globe bestriding Germany which grew into the novel involving the collapse of the regime in the style of the 1991 Soviet collapse.
“ no one’s going to war over something that happened to others over 20 years ago “. My brother in Christ. The forever wars constantly happening on behalf of isreal is exactly what we’ve been doing since the end of ww2
Isreal won ww2. The rest of us lost. Even a small glance at logic makes the Hallofcoats fall apart. If they had intended to kill people they wouldn’t have had concerts and swimming pools and maternity wards!
You’re confusing pretext with material interests, true motivations and causes. Israel functions on “behalf” of the material economic interests of the U.S. ruling class 1%. It was handed off at the end of WWII from the British for whom it served the same purpose since Balfour Declaration at the wrap-up of WWI back in 1917.
The U.S. regards it as an “unsinkable aircraft carrier” from which to project U.S. power in the whole region via a proxy. Which explains the constant unshakable loyalty to that aircraft carrier, no matter how badly the captain and crew behaves to others in the area. It must be understood as an expression of U.S. policy. Even after the U.S. becomes oil and energy self-sufficient (which it already is thanks to fracking being accepted now across both political parties no matter the damage to US citizens and the communities) … the U.S. economic ruling class must be able to deny the (oil) resources in the region to their major geopolitical adversary … China … and now to a much lesser extent Russia as well as anyone else who might think about grabbing exclusive control of the region for themselves.
People really must stop the ethno-analysis. Follow the money as they say … use economic class analysis and material economic interests as the foundation for your analysis and you’ll understand why people and nations do what they do far better and more realistically.
12:57 *The following words fit very well with what is happening right now...*
I always thought the movie was far too optimistic in its ending. In the real world, Western journalists actively helped cover up the Holodomor and keep it out of the public consciousness. George Orwell himself thought that truth about the Ukrainian famine was a lost cause. A world more friendly to the Nazis would have done something similar.
it is a scary world we live in where all our heroes can do is die slightly less badly. I think I would like to see more old fashioned heroes, but politics makes pigs of us all I suppose.
This isn’t too different from how the United States, UK and France rehabilitated Turkey in the wake of WWI. Once the Kemalist govement came to power and both sides came to a political agreement, any mention of the genocide of Ottoman Turkish minorities was basically gone until revived in the 1960’s.
Even now few are aware of the Armenian genocide. By this I mean they know, they've heard. But not 'aware'
A good video... makes one realize why various Soviet atrocities, such as the Holodomor and the Red Terror, have been forgotten in the popular imagination over time.
If you like alternate history I take a look at Len Deighton SS-GB it works along the same idea.
Oh yeah, I remember liking Fatherland quite a bit. Really good alternate history novel. I liked how true it played its story to the world it had constructed, even though I don't remember if we're ever told exactly how Germany won the war. And the ending was sort of reminiscent of For Whom the Bell Tolls.
This question you posed, “how far would you be willing to go, in pursuit of justice for people long dead”, reminds me of something I learned years ago.
Specifically, the visceral gut punch I received when I learned of the bombing of Dresden. That American and British bombers took part in it. This wasn’t something that was ever covered in school. Nothing even came close.
I felt ashamed. Betrayed, almost. This, and several other events during WWII, sent me down a rabbit hole. I thought we were the “good guys”. How could we take part in something so horrible?
I’ve learned so much more outside of school, about historical events and such, than I ever did inside. Doing my own research or by watching videos on RUclips and other sources. From creators like yourself.
Your channel, and a few others, are like finding a breath of fresh air in a world clogged with dust and smoke. A few of them were booted into obscurity over the years. I may not have agreed with their assessments, but boy did they make me rethink things.
The truth is a bitter pill to swallow.
Yes what you said is very true. In HS I had an English teacher (1 of the maybe 3/4 teachers/prof that taught me how to actually learn in all of HS& College. Likely no accident 75% of them were Literature teachers)who was also head of the English department of the entire school & thus determined curriculum. Every student from honors to remedial read Slaughterhouse Five. The decision to include that book has produced an untold number of illuminating points in the darkness. I read that book my Sophomore year in HS all the way back in 1990(fuck I'm old now,damnit!) and I literally wept. And then I saw The Greatest Story Never Told. I have relatives who were in WW2 & had heard stories about how most of the Allied soldiers thought the Russians were the real enemy so I was prepared for some things. But not seeing Women literally crucified. Watching that movie you think there is no fucking way there can be any more wars or conflicts. This was so bad you couldn't not learn. But...
And as we correspond we truly sit at the closest point to a WW3 there has ever been. I don't know what can be said after that.
Be safe and God Bless 🐕
Yup. My thoughts exactly when i read it in the early 00s. I was studying German in college, had worked in the library, and the library had a lot of books written in nazi Germany, enough to freak out the Germans on campus. And all the journals, physically. An early edition of many dark books were just dusty things on a shelf. Freedom is nice
Fatherland is one of my favorite books of all time, and its great to see it gain attention. In fact, it actually inspired my own writings.
Glory to the fatherland
Kind of reminds me of "V for Vendetta" (the graphic novel, not the movie), where one of the key characters is a police officer investigating the bombings carried out by 'V.' He serves the fascist government, and (at first) sees V as a dangerous terrorist & madman, but he's not a committed ideologue like a lot of the other government characters. More than that, he's old enough to remember what Britain was like before the war...
I did like the book. The scanario is likely enough to suspend disbelief and the message as a warning is solid. Nobody cares unless they have too!
I think what I took from the book (never even heard about the movie) is just how ordinary life under a Nazi state would be - unless you were a target or made yourself one. That’s how all the bad stuff happens, because life didn’t stop. The kids have school and homework and sports and you have a job and a family to care for, there are sports to follow, etc. it’s too easy for people to ignore the ugliest parts of the Nazis because they’re “busy” and life looks ordinary.
And the other part is that we’ve constructed a cartoon version of fascism that actually enables it. We are taught by television shows and movies that fascism is constant parades and angry speeches and flags with symbols on them. We think it’s going to be open and obvious and the world stops. And so as long as our fascist government doesn’t look like our cartoons, it’s going to slip by and most people won’t notice or care.
Its a very weak portrayal but in the context of the author growing up under the great lie he did a pretty good job with the context he was forced to work with, and no internet at his disposal to boot @@TheresaReichley
@victorkreig6089 he did fairly well
@@victorkreig6089 that’s the thing, he didn’t lie. We lied to ourselves about what these kinds of governments are like. If you watch any WW2 themed movies, Nazis were just nothing but parades and rallies and angry speeches and flags everywhere. In this version, life was barely noticeably worse. Life went on. Cops were busy with normal crimes. If you wanted to get involved you had to dig to find out about the ugly stuff they were doing.
There was a movie on Amazon... English detective looking for a murder under German rule...thought this was the movie, only faintly remembered reading part of the book.
Thanks for the reminder of an excellent novel and for your perspective. Found your channel recently and enjoy the over thinking in the woods :)
The Man in the High Castle, the Amazon series at least, also adopts the idea of a much less visible Holocaust precisely due to the German victory. It happened, of course, but it's not common knowledge and only a select few know the details of what happened in the camps. As far as the average Reich denizen knows (and one of the main anti-heroes' wife), the European Jews were just resettled east, carted off somewhere out of sight. The truth is revolting even to at least of portion of Nazi higher-ups. Of course, it's even more revulsive once certain characters find out (SPOILERS!) that the Greater German Reich intends to implement a sequel in America (targeting African Americans, for example), once the cold war turned hot against Imperial Japan is won there.
It's been awhile since I watched the show but from what I picked up, American Blacks who ended up in American Reich territory either fled to the neutral zone or the Imperial Pacific States or were sent to concentration camps where they were killed. Obergruppenfuhrer Smith's daughter asked him if he knew any Black people when he was a child and, when he admitted that he did, his daughter asked where all the Black people went. Smith paused and, clearly lying, said they all went back to Africa.
We saw in flashbacks in Season 1 that, as a member of the SS, Smith had participated in and overseen purges of "undesirables" in American cities. This included an infanticidal event in Cincinnati that gave one of his fellow overseers permanent PTSD.
It was interesting to see that Smith wasn't a believer in the Reich's racial supremacy dogma. He wasn't a racist and he considered Himmler "a petty little dictator." However, he was willing to commit any evil act if it meant safety and prosperity for himself and his family. In the end, it was a motivation that ended up costing him his self-respect (after visiting "our" timeline, he realized he was the worst version of himself) and his son and wife.
Thanks for reminding us of this book.
I wanted to disagree with you and the author and make the claim that somebody would remember the Holocaust. But the clip you have of Harris fairly refused that and I must admit that if we have the level of Holocaust denial that we have today with all the evidence that we have, then it is entirely possible that the incident would go down the memory hole if Nazi Germany had won.
The Romans in Gaul. The Mongols across Eurasia. The Counter-Reformation. The Spanish in Central America. The Han conquest of China. The Arab Slave Trade. The Triangular Trade.
Selling White women as slaves in the American South in the 1850s. The terrorism of "freedom fighters".
It is really just purely academic at this point.
Nobody cares about the Catholic Church killing anyone who dared to read and translate the bible to their own language. Nobody cares about St. Bartholomew's Day massacre. Nobody cares about the complete eradication of entire civilizations at the hand of the Spanish. Nobody cares about the millennia of genocide at the hands of the Han to become the dominant race in China. Nobody cares about the mass enslavement and castration of Africans at the hands of the Arabs. Nobody wants to talk about the murders, kidnappings, and mass violence at the hands of people like Nelson Mandela. And nobody wants to talk about White slaves sold in the South, as it doesn't fit in either of the two narratives.
Just as nobody cares about the fact that chocolate for the price and scale we have today, is only possible because of current day slavery.
Just as nobody cares about the fact that the only reason we have reached the extreme Golden Age we live in today, is because of the mass enslavement of Southeast Asia. Without this, smart phones would not be possible.
You can do a lot of crazy things when you enslave Billions upon Billions of people.
And nobody cares.
You've definitely convinced me to read it!
You film in such pretty locations. Thanks for the content.
Thinks me of Red Dawn.
@@Michaelfatman-xo7gv haha, now that you say it, I realise that's spot on😎
To me I think history is no longer of any value to shape the present. They say those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it, yet if all our history is a bunch of lies used to prop up a mythology that benefits a regime, what difference does it make if we're versed in them or not? It's not that I don't think "truth" is a value, there's a reason why the first sin in the Bible was of a lie. However, if all truth is so heavily mixed in with lies as to be inextricable like mixing a glass of lemonade, where you can't ever separate the water from the lemon juice from the sugar from the little drop of poison added to it. The only reliable way not to die is not to drink it.
There are a million atrocities in human history, I think it's a better question to ask why only the one going unnoticed would bother anyone, rather than asking if you yourself would be.
The soap hoax is the foundation all of our modern society is built on
Without it our world would be very VERY different
Lies havw consequences and you're living in one
Interesting comment and more than a little relevant as we observe the world's current climate in October 2024.
Nice, I just re-watched this last week. Had the book when it came out.
Like you, on this viewing I noticed that the uniforms really should have changed in three decades. But I let it pass as well.
I'm interested in our take on the "Co-Dominum" from the Pournelle alt-future?
I plan a few takes on the CoDo. In fact I recorded the first just this morning.
@@feralhistorian Thanks. Been wanting to look at a possible "how" considering OTL the US and USSR were nowhere near "cordial" enough for it to happen :)
@@randycampbell6307 Always got a lack of resources vibe pushed them together.
@@Michaelfatman-xo7gv Suspect it's more related to not wanting to have to deal with anyone elses "shite". Given that they mainly seem to have frozen the world "political pole's" situation (in their favor no less) I'd highly suspect something much more than just being "a series of treaties" creating it.
Kind of head-canon that it took some event that threatened the world and so they got together to face the threat but ensured they'd always be on top. ("MIT Saves the World" kind of thing)
As usual, you've done a great video. Have you read Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle? I wonder what you think about it. Could be fodder for another series of videos like the Draka books.
I started reading Quicksilver way back and then lost the book somewhere. Worth revisiting from what I recall.
Excellent analysis as usual. The book is far better than the HBO, with the right ending. Its also a plain good read, its biggest fault being the all the inferior AH works it inspired.
BTW is that a Stargate patch?
Indeed.
@@feralhistorian Do you think you could cover The New Order: Last Days of Europe? Its a cold-war strategy game based on the same premise.
This film is worth watching. It's really gripping.
I remember reading this book back in college. It was interesting
As alt-history, I like to see something exploring where Germany focuses on North Africa and removing the Allied presence before going into Russia.
I always thought the end of the movie was optimistic.
These videos come out right before my first break, which also happens to be a WFH day. It's perfect.
Are there any plans on covering Command and Conquer? Namely, how the Nod media manipulation campaign subplot is a bit... prescient these days.
I just discovered your channel, love your analysis. I would love to get your point of view on the Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect and the Children of Time series. Both interesting and weird (in their own way) science-fiction.
I have been meaning to cover Children of Time for almost a year now. Apparently I'm easily distracted. I haven't read Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect, but it's on my list now.
@@feralhistorian Thanks a lot. Just brace yourself for Metamorphosis. It's really weird and has deeply some unsettling parts. Keep going, you're doing great.
These ‘Hitler won the war’ alternate history stories tend not to interest me. I experienced how people view the same history in different ways when I was a child. It is likely the public wouldn’t have known about those camps if it weren’t for the embedded reporters, those were standard by then, but hadn’t been a proper thing until WW1, and a lot of their footage was staged. The Crimean war had some reporters, but not in the embedded sense.
In Australia we knew a number of men who’d fought in WW2 and to them Churchill was a war criminal, I used to sit with them, and to hear them talk you’d think he’d executed australians personally. Then I came to the UK where the same man is a national hero, for pretty much the same reasons (being a ruthless S.O.B when the UK needed one)
But, a Rutger Hauer movie I wasn’t aware existed, that I find interesting, the blu-ray has already been ordered. I’ll get the original Robert Harris book to compare them when I have some spare audible credits.
Churchill is the monster we were lied to about Hitler being
The war ends and magically Dresden didn't happen
The war ends and what he did to the Boers was never a thing
The aussies knew what he did and that's why they hated him
He was the definition of scum and the fact that in this modern era he's looked up to as someone to aspire to be is insane
But that's what happens when information is curated
What I found most interesting about the HBO adaptation was its portrayal of Berlin. It has all the oversized monuments, but it's still a real city with boring apartment blocks and public transit.
@@feralhistorian The uniform thing you picked up on does indeed make little to no sense, there's no way they'd still be wearing uniforms from the early 40's still . I watch a lot of old movies, and in those you can see police uniforms changing in just twenty years. The UK Carry On comedy movie series are as much documentaries on how things were changing here as they were comedies, though this wasn't the intent.
Ultimately it would come to political convenience, if the government can ignore p.o.w's being held and worked in Vietnam because the alternative would make the wrong people look bad a president who sold himself on being a peacemaker might just hand off the folder to the c.i.a and shake hands make peace and know they have another chip in the game of politics.
One concept of an alternate WW2 story I've been thinking about a lot, both in a fictional story sense and a real life sense, is what would happen if Germany never betrayed the USSR?
Well it definitely wouldn’t have happened since Nazism and Facsism mor broadly was built on a hatred of Communism and the need for living space to the east
The USSR would have betrayed germany. Neither of them trusted each other and both planned to betray the other, germany just got the lucky first hit.
Betrayal implies they were ever in a pact
It was mostly Hitler saying "look we're busy and we can't have these bloodthirsty mongrels just itching to attack us, let's put up a little treaty to get them to fuck off for a while"
Stalin looked at it and said "we've still got a LOT of peasants to rape and murder, I wouldn't mind a good excuse to keep going"
Nice video
I've given the "what if they won" some thought, and I came to the conclusion that the Party would decline in popularity, like they all do, but more importantly, Atlanticism would die and power would shift to the Mediterranean.
"Atlanticism would die and power would shift to the Mediterranean."
Geography does not support this. You are correct that the party would inevitably decline, as everything that brought people to it would have been achieved.
But geography is geography. The United States would still become the economic power that it is today. Perhaps even more so, as they put a lot on the line and paid for the global order and to become the global police.
A Greater Germany would fare better than the Soviet Union did. And if the events of Fatherland did happen, we would still live in a world in 2024 where the whole world would be dominated by these two superpowers.
And as Germany is a lot closer to Britain than the Soviet Union was, the whole Anglo world would probably be more integrated than it already is today. With the British economy being entirely integrated into the American.
Also, Germany is closer to the West in culture and language than the Soviet Union was. A Cold War would be inevitable for some time. But while eternal peace and coexistence with the Soviet Union would have been impossible. A permanent reconciliation between the United States and Germany would probably happen at some point. Pretty soon the new people in charge would be people with no connection to the war. And so, the newer generations look at the world very differently than the people who fought in it.
Details would define this of course. How Christians be treated in Germany after the war would probably define US-German relations more than the entire Holocaust.
For a better understanding of Nazi Germany, I recommend "The Order of the Death's Head". Try to get an older copy, the newer additions have been censored.
personally I view it as the European version of the man in the high castle.
Pretty apt. Man in the High Castle is over the top, flashy, and did I say over the top. While Fatherland is slow and subdued. It's like the difference between the British and the American version of Kitchen Nightmares. The British version is quiet, calm, and respectful in quality. While the American version is not watchable.
Great video as always.
2:06 Dark decisions were announced at Wannsee and plans for their implementation made. The decisions had already been made.
I love this book it kind of got me into alternate history I have the paper back I also have The abridged audio novel read by Colonel klink
Great video.
What a lot of writers and readers misunderstand, especially in the alternate history realm, is that actions and events are caused as a series of reactions. The United States has a big racial "thing". Some would immediately jump to the conclusion that this is the case because the United States is racist as an entity. But in reality, the United States has a long history of it, because it was the only Western country that had a large racial minority. So the United States has a history of segregation and race riots and the like. While countries like Denmark does not.
The problem with something like Man in the High Castle, is that it pictures this eternal monolithic structure of evil incarnate. But this misses the fact that the first thing that would happen after the end of the war, is that babies are born with no connection to it. Then two decades later, they enter adulthood. And 50 years after the war, they are the dominant bulk of the population.
So, generations and generations after a German victory in the Second World War, would start looking very different. Every pillar that made Nazism would be gone. The humiliation of the Treaty of Versailles would have been rectified. Germany is the hegemon of Eurasia. Bolshevism has been destroyed. And there are no more jews left on the continent.
And as every pillar that made them possible are gone, so too the country and the culture would start to change.
And with the inevitable death of the Fuhrer, things would have to change. Hitler, in the event of a German victory, would be seen as the greatest German that has ever lived. He chased the French out of the Rhineland. He simply plucked and annexed the ancient lands of Austria under Berlin. He made a laughing stock out of the Democracies by first grabbing the Sudetenland, and then just taking all of Bohemia. And then, in Fatherland, he launched his army and defeated the Soviet army on every front, capturing the three cities of Leningrad, Stalingrad, and Moscow. Making the Ural Mountains not only the border of Europe, but the border of Germany.
He would have been seen as a divine figure. Much more than the cult of personality of Stalin and Mao. So as long as he still lives, the system and the culture would be held in place. But, with the inevitability of time, he would die. And the eternal problem of succession in an Autocratic system presents itself. If, as in Fatherland, he lives to reach advanced age. Then there are none of his war years who could take over. Which means you need someone who never saw the war to take over. Which presents much the same problems as when Oliver Cromwell passed away in England.
His death would cause the last pillar of Nazism to crumble. And the system would have to Democratize. Not go full Social Democracy with Universal Suffrage, no. But a process of Democratization would inevitably occur.
-------
Now, for the United States in Fatherland. As well as what would happen if the papers were to be released to the world.
First, just as the Second World War shaped the United States. So too, when altering the War, it would alter the United States. And Greater Germany would be doing the same things that the Soviet Union did during the Cold War. Secret funding of Universities. Interacting and meddling with various groups in society. Etc etc.
While also, the political divide of the United States would be heavily affected. As the "Left" and "Right" only became a thing after WW2.
So, how would the political landscape of the United States look after a German victory in Europe?
The isolationist Republicans would probably have a big air of "I told you so". While New Deal Democrats would probably shatter. Truman becoming this humiliating figure.
And also, this would obviously give great vigor to American Nazis.
People like Charles Lindbergh would probably have a very different trajectory in this timeline. As well as many others. And the Klan would become a very different organization.
But you still have the Leftists. You will have Academic refugees from Russia taking shelter in the United States. And Joseph McCarthy would still be hunting Communists, but also hunting Nazis as well.
With the United States being a "First Past the Post" system, this means you will inevitably have two great coalitions within the political system. Which dictates in this situation.
Segregation was still in place and vitally important to the Democratic Party. But with the fall of Truman and New Dealers, while also having a surge of American Nazis, it becomes very difficult to pin and point every political faction into which side they would be in.
The entire political system would have to reshuffle, as has happened multiple times. But what it inevitable, is that some form of "Right" and "Left" would naturally develop.
So, what would happen if the Holocaust was revealed to the world? The two different sides would react differently, according to their view of the Cold War and their view of Germany.
One side would condemn it, while the other side would brush it aside. With the brushers aside, a faction within would most likely outright deny it as pure radical fantasy.
It would be a political tool for quite some time. Some Ronald Reagan character would perhaps enter the stage at some point, and he would make a big deal out of it. But then you would also have a Jimmy Carter character who would go soft. But then again, these two were heavily affected by the specific situation in the Soviet Union.
It's easy to be bullish against a falling Soviet Union. And there probably would not be food shortages in Greater Germany as there was in the Soviet Union during Carter.
As much of the Cold War was pretty split in our timeline, it would obviously be split in the Fatherland timeline as well. But instead of having Soviet and Chinese funding and social infiltration, we would have Nazi Germany.
Which would completely upend and change the development of the United States.
The history of Hippies and the history of Desegregation would be completely changed. How exactly is difficult to say. We have to remember the chain of reactions. Perhaps America would be more Liberal as a reaction to Nazis. Or perhaps far less Liberal, instead taking on characteristics of the enemy.
And for the rest of the world, events such as Decolonization would be completely changed in a most fundamental way.
With countries like South Africa having a completely different reality in this post-ww2 scenario. As there would be nobody to push for the end of Apartheid, the whole region would be forever altered.
In addition to my comment. Just as the Soviet Union funded and organized Leftist movements in the United States during the Cold War. And just as how in Fatherland the United States would be funding resistance movements and opposing groups.
Germany would obviously be funding the Klan and White Identity movements. But they would also be funding many of the same groups that the Soviet Union was funding. Purely for the sake of causing chaos within their Cold War enemy.
So, in a Fatherland scenario, I do believe that internal violence in the United States would be higher than how it was in real life. Simply because of instead of having two groups, the Federal Government on one side and the broad Civil Rights Movement on the other. You would still have those two, but you would also have a far more well-funded well-organized White Identity Groups thrown into the mix.
I’ve said before that a 1980s Nazi Germany would probably be known for budget deficits and vague apologies. I agree that some degree of liberalization would occur in a post-Hitler Nazi Germany, but I’m not convinced it would involve democratization. Partly because there was an ideological rejection of any sort of parliamentary process with the whole concept tied to a top-down Fuhrerprinzip, as opposed to the Soviet Union for example where the idea of equality and collective decision-making was woven into the ideology even if not in practice. Any sort of real democratic reform would have been a longer trip for the Nazis.
And they had a lot of aggressive fiefdoms with overlapping authority. If any one of them relaxed, another would just gobble up some of its turf. It structurally discourages any move toward openness or democratic reform.
And of course today we can see a steady de-democratization in the US and Europe. Or rather a faux-democracy where the forms are maintained but the substance of actual rule by the people is absent. Candidates are chosen by political/economic cabals with their own interests and messaging is largely controlled through them, maintaining the appearance of a democratic process as cover for a much more top-down, unaccountable state managerial class that actually runs things regardless of who is elected. Economic and foreign policy stays more or less constant, with the democratic action being over a select range of domestic issues.
While the show has to be maintained in the US and Europe today, the Nazis wouldn’t need to prop up a democratic facade. They never pretended it was important. They’d probably have to establish a succession process and likely reduce the Fuhrer’s power through something like a central committee, but I see a lot of resistance to going any further than that.
What I would expect is a move away from the open militarism of the 1930s-40s toward something more like the post-war US, with a massive military-industrial-complex but most of the actual offensive moves being through coups and proxy wars. I doubt that American political alignments would change that much since we were already locked into becoming a more top-down national-security state by the end of the war, I’d expect the details of the 1960s to play out differently but the overall themes of youth rebelling against the war machine (wherever the war happened to be) and a related civil rights movement to be similar.
I do think you’re absolutely right about Africa being drastically different. I could absolutely see both apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia not only surviving but being trading partners with Germany. Not only would Germany be likely to at the very least openly trade fuel and arms with them simply on the ideologically baked-in racial grounds, but without a Soviet Bloc backing the guerrillas the balance would be heavily tilted in favor of the white governments.
There’s also some possibilities for China turning out much differently. Germany aiding Japan if they stay in the war, or if they’re out then Chiang’s nationalists have options to ask for aid from either Germany or the US against the communists, while Mao would be denied an outside backer. Some version of the modern world but with a major European colonial power bloc still in southern Africa and China that’s more like a big Taiwan than the PRC starts to see some major divergence regardless of what Germany and America do.
@@feralhistorian On China, I think China would be largely the same. But with different colors. When Taiwan was established, it was not exactly what we would consider anything like a liberal society. Just like South Korea, they naturally stayed in their more natural autocratic ways. China either breaks apart into warring warlord states, or it is united by an overly autocratic central imperial center.
When I say Democratization, I mean a very limited process of people on the top having a say. More like early America, where only a couple percent of the population could vote.
The problem is that in a geography like Germany, wealth and power is going to be spread around. A natural Middle Class exists. And levels of representation would naturally develop. Just as it did. Nobody would call the German Empire under the Kaiser democratic. Yet, it did develop democratic institutions.
Not at all any sort of broad system. But a highly limited elitist form of government.
The Soviet Union followed the Russian way of doing things because it existed within the same geography. With the same realities and the same problems.
Germany is very different.
Just as you had an Autocratic Kaiser with the final say and was the one to appoint the Prime Minister, so too you can retain the position of Fuhrer, but with a Parliamentarian system where issues can be addressed, is a natural thing to implement. Even if only top party men, industrialists, military officers, and certain skilled professionals, have the right to actually vote.
Just as the Western and Central European Monarchs saw the natural growth of Parliaments during their time.
On the other side, having a Parliamentary system allows the people to blow off steam. When every issue is either militarily stamped down or enacted by marching in the street with a general strike... It's just not very efficient.
While even limited Democratic systems, does a great deal of societal soothing.
And, voting grants a level of legitimacy that "Royal blood" can't do anymore. Even if you have a highly limited system of suffrage, like the election of George Washington. Or are more manufactured theatre like now.
It legitimizes in a way that the following top-men would need in a broadly wealthy system of central Europe would need for the system to endure.
Germany is not a land of serfs living on rocky soil in a terrible climate.
The way I see it, is that the position of Fuhrer, where the Fuhrer is all completely supreme as it was under Hitler, was always going to be a temporary thing. Even if by temporary I mean decades and decades. But a more natural equilibrium, I do think, would naturally occur.
I hope at some stage you take a look at the Vorkosigan Saga. Falling Free was interesting but peripheral. I could take it or leave it. The real storyline, 600 years later, jumps between related characters giving them room to breath. I found myself initially disappointed about each change of focus only be delighted with the result. Lois McMaster Bujold masters well written science fiction in this series.
I'm adding things to the reading list at about the same pace as I finish reading them now, so I should get there eventually.
@@feralhistorian I will look forward to your analysis of the Green Room scene. You'll know it when you get to it.
I read it when it came out in 92. Book is fantastic. The HBO Movie was ok. Stick with the book.
We've substituted the ending of the book with the reality of the Soviet Union and NOBODY being held to account for the millions of dead by the Soviet regime.
Excellent work. 👍
What's funny is that I was thinking "Getting about time for a Feral drop." and then look what materialized in my feed.
Anyway, while I admit it is a bit of an overdone topic, German Victory is just one of those scenarios that we all kind of think about and I'm even drafting a timeline for (your bit on the Middle East being interesting as that's something I had to think a lot about for my version of it). I will admit to Fatherland being an inspiration for my timeline with it having a lot of similarities of mixing Hitler's dreams with the Cold War reality, like in it, Generalplan Ost is discovered and observed by U2s till one got splashed near Crimea in 57. Though I love your idea of the Germans Bureauocracizing all of German society. I may take some inspiration from that.
Excellent video
My first alt history novel. It struck me at the time how normal Nazi Germany was portrayed
Aside from non-German folks engaging in an increasingly violent insurgency both inside cities and in the countryside, Germans fleeing from Eastern Europe in droves, the economy tanking and everyone being afraid of being sent out east to Russia, it's a normal place...
I want to amend your statement about governments not caring about atrocities unless it's in their interest to do so. I think the American reaction to discovering the camps was sincere. But I agree that no government cares about atrocities when it's not in their interest to do so. And we see that in the headlines every single day these days.
It really depends as to which party wants to use it for their own ends. In the novel, the US were funding the rump Soviet Union so whoever preceded Kennedy were hostile to the Nazis...
The middle east in a germany-wins-in-europe scenario is interesting to think about. I do not doubt that whatever might be written on the subject would be controversial but also fascinating. Especially depending on how you decide the pacific war ends up (in all likelyhood japan is still defeated by the americans, even if victory isn't as absolute as in OTL)
Considering the real world intervention of Germany in Syria and Iraq in WWII also Himmler interest in Islam as "warriors religion" and the willingess of Arab nationalist to work with the Germans against the old colonial powers - then in AH, if the Africa Corps and Operation Blau had been successful, the Turks/Arab/Persian groups and states would have come under German influence quite easily.
Lolno
If Deutschland wins Europe it's because that bastard FDR loses power or is thwarted in forcing the Japanese to start the pacific war in the first place
The middle east would he in a MUCH better position if we had never been forced into war in the first place, not just because the jews never steal their land but because the anglos aren't the ones in charge of the region and therefore can't keep those laughably bad border lines they drew there after The Great War
The Germans were actually very good at understanding Africa and it's internal geopolitics which is why their colonies were so good, there is no way in hell they wouldn't have done a better job reorganizing thr middle east(as long as the Italians weren't given any power to do so, they sucked at it)
@@fabianherrmann6398 Racial supremacy was a cornerstone in Nazi ideology. Most likely, the entire region would be carved up as German oil extraction Reichskommissariats.
These desert lands would serve only one thing. Put oil in the pipeline and get it to Germany.
The lives of the people would mean nothing. Remember the memes that came out of 9/11, about turning the entire region into a parking lot?
What do you think the unrestrained victorious Nazis would do the moment somebody opposed them?
You don't need natives to extract the oil. In fact, they are in the way. The oil would flow a lot safer and a lot smoother without anyone living there at all.
1:39 The picture you show here is Martin Bormann, head of the party chancellery. Not whoever you said.
I can see when you look up Josef Buhler it comes up with this image. I have no idea why. Again, not Josef Buhler, but rather Martin Bormann. Different Nazi.
You are correct. Careless error on my part.
@@feralhistorian Rest of the video makes up for it
Basically what Europe is becoming nowadays.
I am part native American and African American decent in my genetic lineage, and I've said since I was a boy that if the Nazis had won, we would care about the holocaust as much as we do what was done to us, or tge Armenians, or any other genocided people, little to nothing, and people would tell them to get over it!. I speak from experience!.
I think you are absolutely right about that.
@10:45 is epic
The banality of being human.
The god guys lost ww2. Patton realized it at the end.
Is that a SGC patch I see?
It reminds me ln a way of America. Decent people not wanting to acknowledge what was done to the indigenous peoples here for example. And while we are fully aware of it we sleep soundly trying to believe that we are the world's good guys. Even though our actions paint another story entirely.
Sure. And you could substitute a number of things for treatment of Native Americans. Plenty. Even now you could substitute the actual populace which had an ability to reconcile & compartment being in the crosshairs of its own government. Despite the presence of an alleged Constitution.
Came to the conclusion awhile ago there's no good guys, just bad guys and those not as brutal.
Be safe and God Bless 🐕
@@igorslocks I meet you half way on that. God bless to you as well.
Stick to the grey. Good guy..bad guy, turns out we are just Mulligan stew.
You don't say...
What a strange topic
This just might be my perspective as someone who was born after 2000.
If Germany "won" ww2, would anyone *actually* care about the hall-of-cost ? I don't think so. Reason being- look at the Native American genocide, no one *actually* cares about it not even Native Americans who extist today. At best it's a fringe historical fixation or a political talking point when its convenient, but no one really cares that it happened.
In the logic of this AltHis story, at best, it would be a rallying point for Slavic rebels, if anything.
You are entirely correct that nobody would care. Now about the Slavic peoples, it entirely depends. Many of the Southern Slavs were quite enthusiastic about working with the Germans.
And we could easily see a situation where many would view themselves as sort of "Secondary Aryans". Similarly to how it was with the German and Scandinavian Lutherans who migrated to the Calvinistic United States in the early 1800s. They were not seen as full "WASP", but they were pretty close. And seen as brothers in comparison to the alien Catholics.
With the Germans picking sides in the region, the various groups would hold differing views. The place isn't suited for any sort of German Lebensraum. And it would take a really long time filling Belarus and Ukraine. So the Slavic attitude would depend more on who sided with the Germans and who well on the wrong side.
With the ones on the wrong side being... disappeared. While the victors becoming "Secondary Aryans".
Read the book when it came out, never saw the movie.
Happy endings are fairy tales we want to believe, because the reality is usually so different.
But the movie ending, "those who look and do Nazi"???!!
Seeing the clips of Ruger Hauer caused me to recall "Inside the Third Reich".
If you might be interested, compare Speer's semi-accurate story with Sereny's "Albert Speer: His Battle With Truth."
I may do that comparison at some point. A few interesting points come to mind.
13:45 depends if I like the victim group or the perpetrator to be perfectly honest
I think deep down that's everyone's answer, if they're being honest with themselves.
You should look at the dates of those photos. Just saying most of them are taking 3 to 6 months after the camps were quote liberated.
I hate "What if the Nazis won WW2?" alternate history stories, like I am seriously damn tired of seeing them. I find the people who write them are very weird and suspicious, pushing Nazi fanfiction. This book by Robert Harris still makes me narrow my eyes a bit, but I'm glad it has a genuine story to tell detached from the usual bullshit of this alternate history sub-genre.
WkuK...
One of the great tragedies/ mistakes was after the fall of the Soviet Union was to not have a Nuremberg style trial for the communist leadership in Eastern Europe.
It would have prevented today's dystopia if anything.
It would have been pointless
Nuremberg was a bullshit show trial for revenge porn and thr majority of people responsible for what the society did during ww2, prior to it, and after were thankfully dead due to the machinations of their own sick government and society.
The Romanians did…
How would that have even worked? What nations would have the legitimacy to prosecute such a thing? By the 1990s, the United States was up to its own armpits in blood bringing Pizza Huts to the "unfree" nations of the world and Clinton's State Department activities resulted in a massive jump in Russian mortality rates.
I hope if get story slow decline society cost climate change crisis slide effects like mad max 1 and children man
If only we were that lucky
Even in Nazi Germany the father still gets the short end of the stick.
American men who fight for custody statistically tend to get it. But most don't, because most men prefer working only 8 hours a day to giving full-time childcare.
@@briskettacosthey literally do not you're full of shit
@@victorkreig6089 If the father is the better alternative, they get custody. Judges consider mothers to be better better at parenting infants and the young typically because the mother was the primary at-home caregiver due to the father working. Judges also believe working men can bounce back easier, financially, than a non-working woman, and can pay child support.
If you have a stay-at-home-with-the-kids dad, a working mother, and a divorce, the father typically gets the kids.
These are all common factors in divorce cases. Don't have to like it. Just the way it is until there's complete parity of the percentage of fulltime working men and women who are also parents.
Xavier March is a troubled man. The fact he still remains a detective (because he refuses promotions) and his job makes him physically and thus emotionally distant from his wife and son played a big part in that...