Bernardo Kastrup VS Christof Koch
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- Christof Koch is a German-American neurophysiologist and computational neuroscientist best known for his work on the neural basis of consciousness. He is the president of the Allen Institute for Brain Science in Seattle and he is the chief scientist at the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation.
Bernardo Kastrup is an idealist philosopher and the executive director of Essentia Foundation. His work has been leading the modern renaissance of metaphysical idealism, the notion that reality is essentially mental. In this episode, they debate about Analytic Idealism, the Integrated Information Theory, psychedelic trips and death.
Listen on Spotify: spoti.fi/44Ppcha
Koch's Books: www.collectiveinkbooks.com/if... christofkoch.com/my-books-and...
Kastrup's books:
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
02:03 The bond between Koch and Kastrup
07:59 Integrated Information Theory
19:52 Consciousness in other people apart from oneself
22:51 Idealism and the physical world
25:49 Idealism & Death
40:33 Accepting Idealism
48:03 Consciousness & The Brain
01:01:10 Kastrup's Worst Psychedelic Experience
01:05:29 Learnings from Psychedelics
01:08:39 Koch's Psychedelic Experience
01:12:37 Koch's Thoughts On Idealism
01:17:17 On Art
01:21:08 On Nature
01:27:40 Implications of Idealism
01:29:44 The future of Idealism
01:32:33 Koch's personal problems
01:36:34 Koch's end goal
01:37:49 Kastrup on empathy
01:43:08 Advice for young people
01:48:04 Thoughts on the conversation
Fidias, I really applaud you for not interfering in the discussion of these two great minds. Thank you
LOL
So true... I can't stand when hosts pointlessly interrupt the guests. Unless there is a lull or you're trying to hit specific topics and keep things on track, you're doing your job by not doing anything.
yeah totally agree. And Fidas is good he really plays his part of a ingranat pupil. the part without his question was best. 1 or two is good here and there but not to many is best
@fahad 56297 Kind of accidental brilliance !
Bernardo Kastrup is Like a Samurai amongst scientist, philosophers (or his peers). He fights honorably for his Philosophy. I really respect his vigorousness and the code by which he operates.
I just can’t dislike him. Koch seems to fight with his own worldview the most but tries to remain open minded which is really enjoyable.
Christof Koch is fantastic in this. As someone who was once a physicalist you can see how he’s contending with these ideas. That he has understood them and is seeking Bernado to explain it to others in a way which has helped Cristoff come to understand them
It's really unfortunate that materialism/physicalism has taken over the modern mind, including outside academia (but also inside academia of course). Being an intelligent being is about dealing with ideas in a sophisticated manner, that includes being able to step back and accept that not everything can be or will be empirically proven. If one can "believe" in M-theory, they certainly can believe in idealism. Empiricism's great flaw is that it denies the existence of the conscious observer from the experiment.
I agree Christof was great. I will definitely be checking out his new book.
I like how Graham Hancock says that any president should take at least 10 ayahuasca trips. Same happened here. Psychedelics uncovering the conscious nature of reality to a great mind
@@access5870 M theory is not a good example of empiricism, because it is a "theory" that has no empirical or experimental foundation. It is virtually pure theoretical speculation. To even call it a "theory" in the conventional scientific sense of the word is questionable. A leap of faith is required to believe it, and that includes leaping right over the scientific method, from which it has no direct support.
Beautiful! I would just like to compliment Mr. Koch on changing his views so honestly and openly. Admitting one was wrong is the greatest sign of intellectual honesty. We are living in exciting times.
I can identify with Bernardo with his Gaza example. It's difficult not to be deeply affected by so much suffering. It hurts to look away.
Yes it hurts to look at it… and it hurts to look away!
What a great line “it hurts to look away“. Did you mean it as I understood it?
Science and common man including Muslims has nothing to do with politics and we are all human beings including Jews. Regards
The fact a stalwart of physicalism in Chris Koch is starting to have cracks in his worldview is fascinating. It suggests to me we are going to see a big shift in the paradigm eventually toward idealism
i think is at least 10-15 years that there are some cracks ... recent books/interviews from top scientists reveal that the big materialist wave of end of 90'sstart of 2000s is over.
I think substance dualism.
@@tim59ismat first yes but I think people will figure that problem out quickly
@@oopleboo3067 Figure it out ?
I think for that we need a sort of a political shift. It is hard to push these ideas without actually giving the giving the experience. Psychedelics should be legalised in order for idealism to come forth, culturally. You see how hard it is to argue with materialists? The dyed in the wool materialists will never buy anything remotely close to idealism. So biased, so stigmatised. Psychedelics can open them up.
Wow, Christof drew some interesting explanations out of Bernardo that I haven’t heard before. Brilliant questioning. Props to both of you.
I was watching this last night, thinking of the implications of 17 quantum fields with energy waves oscillating,😅 cresting to "diamonds, creating our subjective feeling of materiality and suddenly have become disoriented, the whole world seemed 10:05 immaterial, abstract. I felt like I was on pscilocybin again for a few moments.
Man, I really love these two minds. When I first discovered Bernardo I loved him right away. When I found Christof, I didn’t want to like him but the more I listened to him the more I couldn’t help but love him. Now the two joined together and that little bit of tension between them feels just right. This is so good- thank you Fidias!!
To me, the opposite experience was true. A nice dialogue all the same & I understand BK better, even though I still don’t fully agree.
Yeah, funny because I find myself more on Koch’s end now as well. I don’t agree with lots of Kastrups ideas for instance that the universe at large is “less conscious” than we are- why wouldn’t it be so conscious that we could never understand… I wouldn’t put our consciousness over and above a mind at large
@@starxcrossed I've heard Bernardo in some podcasts over the years suggesting that, even if mind at large is not metacognitive (not self-reflective), it probably is still cognitively superior and richer than our limited "monkey minds." So there's a difference between complexity and metacognition.
What I personally think is that all aspects of nature are a form of self-reflection at many different levels, and what we usually refer to as "meta-conscious" is just the layer where our thinking mind resides, which is just the top layer of abstraction. So I'd agree that "thinking" is something that only we humans (and a few other animals) do, but the thinking is a very little and very new tool which still needs a lot of development in nature.
What a wonderful discussion, I wish it could have been 10 hours long. One of the best things I've seen this year.
What Bernardo discusses at approximately 49 minutes in, reminds me of Jill Bolte Taylor's story. She had a hemorrhagic stroke in the left hemisphere of her brain, losing most of the functions that enable us to function as individuals. However, she said she experienced herself as the whole of reality, and felt a sense of absolute bliss and peace. That perception faded as therapy enabled her to regain most of the functions that were lost and she was able to perceive and function as she had before the stroke. The memory of the experience, however, remained to reassure her of a deeper reality and identity that was greater than her individual experience..
I need to read up on that. Thank you.
Read her book and heard her interview with oprah. Helped me stop searching for god etc. Im a happy atheist now.
Fantastic dialogue, Fidias! Hopefully this isn’t the last time we see Bernardo and Christof, such a delightful conversation, filled with empathy, understanding and open-mindedness but nevertheless held together with strong commitments to rationality, naturalism and rigour on both sides, bravo!
One of the most interesting aspects of this conversation for me is not being clear when Koch is playing the devil's advocate and when he is genuinely bewildered by Kastrup's core model. It's really fun to see this play out. At times, Bernardo claims that Koch is playfully pretending to not understand. But often it seems that Koch can't imagine Kastrup's view without presupposing a substrate that isn't mental. Wonderful chat so far :)
Ah, at 36:04 we have a moment where you can see Koch begin to grasp Bernardo's point and then quickly slip back to needing the brain to be differentiated from experience.
At 37:30 Koch slips back into needing the brain to be distinct from experience again. It's very fun watching Bernardo work to keep Koch grasping Bernardo's model.
It is almost like Bernardo doesn't see that this is the point of slippage between them. Because just after 37:35 Bernardo fails to point out that Koch is once again assuming a brain is a non-mental object/process.
At 46:38 , Kock again seems to think that Bernardo is claiming that a brain is a real object.
Seems like at 54:34 Kock is maybe starting to get into the habit of seeing how Kastrup's model considers neurons and brains as images rather than physical substraits.
56:34: There we go! :)
that's not what's happening here. koch is helping bernardo formulate and clarify. he apparently has had a change of mind and that's the most interesting thing going on here. i'd like to know what exactly changed his mind and if it had anything to do with that beach story in brazil - 1:11:00
koch has previously really struggled to understand kastrup, he does understand now but he's playing the devil's advocate with his former world view, and doing him a favour with that. koch wants to be convinced, his gut instinct is that idealism is correct. i think it's just shocking and emotionally difficult for him, and he has to square it all with science as he knows it. what we see here is great, koch lets bernardo rise to the occasion and shine. a great guest.
@@notexactlyrocketscience
I slightly disagree. It is clear that he is doing some work to let Bernardo describe general aspects of idealism. Yes. But it is equally clear that Koch is often assuming that when Bernardo says brain that he means an actual object that plays a role in generating consciousness. So I think both are true. It was very fun seeing that last moment where Koch corrected himself before Bernardo jumped in to say it.
it seems to me that koch really is playing the devil's advocate there. he is saying what he expects the opposition would say, in order to let bernardo refute it cleanly. @@rooruffneck
@@notexactlyrocketscience
Maybe. There are a number of times that he doesn't seem to be pretending. But we won't ever really know! Like, at 37:30. And, for me, the moment that he says it and then corrects himself, near the end, reveals that it is just starting to sink in. And, he admits that he is still working hard to really grasp it. But, anyway, they were wonderful together.
@@rooruffneckright. For example, he says magnetism is more physical than chemicals. Doesn’t even make sense under physicalism… so, he’s clearly a bit confused still about idealism/not incorporating its language/conceptions
What a wonderful and insightful conversation. Thanks to you all ❤
I have listened to a number of different podcasts with Bernardo and Koch together. This was by far the most productive, congenial, and interesting one. It's great to hear these two converging. I'm especially surprised to find out Koch has had powerful psychedelic experiences which have opened him up to the primary of consciousness and the virtues of idealism. I'd like to hear more about Bernardo's growing appreciation of information theory.
It is just beautiful to see a top scientist actually experience a higher consciousness and not just talk conceptually about it. Bernardo is so brave to take the leap from academia to the practical world and now other scientists are realizing that you have to experience it. I have been saying that all over this videos on youtube. These great minds have to get together. Although we have wars going on on the other hand we seem to be seen an awakening from top academics that could change the course of humanity. It brings a big smile to my face when I see these guys been stunned and having the same questions that I had after an ayahuasca experience.
Thanks for arranging this discussion! I've listened to a whole lot of talks in this vein, and this one was definitely worthwhile
This is a wonderful conversation everyone here.
I subscribed. Fantastic exchange. I’m a Kastrup groupie, and find this interview his best. Koch is new to me. He is most interesting. Together they have given me a clear path. I understand work I must do. It will be exciting. It will be fun. At 75, it’s time that I put a bow on this most wonderful experience; this thing called life. The best to you.
great great questions man, i loved this interview so much. definitely gonna check out some of your other stuff
(Also, lots of respect to Christof Koch for actually engaging deeply with these strange ideas without resorting to ridicule or simply dismissing them.
I’ve been watching him for years and years on shows like Closer To Truth and I honestly didn’t think I would see this happen. I’m officially delighted! 😄🙌🏻)
Thank you so much for bringing these two brilliant minds together and for not derailing their exchanges with intrusions into their conversation. Absolutely brilliant 👍
Wow. Excited for this
Really thought provoking conversation.. Thank you for putting this together!
Very cool thank you Fidias and everyone involved.
This will be a great listen 👍
Tickling the algorithm.Great conversation, bravo
...intense life, Prof Christopher Kock! We can only feel empathy. Thanks for sharing personal issues and your science.
I sympathise with Bernardo with his cat. I had to drive through chock full traffic to the vets with my do Angus with a damaged spine. He was on the back seat having shocking pains in his spine. I was crying and pinching myself hard just for relief. He had to be euthanised after they gave him a powerful pain killer which made him all sleepy and tranquil. They said his spine had a fracture which was to dangerous to repair. I lost him only age 5 yrs old and he was my best friend. Everywhere I went, he was with me.
It was harrowing and I couldn't get over it until someone said to me go and get another dog from the rescue centre. I did and and after two weeks of them certifying me as a good candidate ect I brought home a Saluki cross. She instantly came to life and was playing with toys and treats hidden in her basket. Don't do what I did and agonise over a loss for 7 months, just go and give a new home to an animal of your choice.
Like Koch, I also want to "figure it out" in my lifetime. As I sat here, eating a banana, occasionally scratching, I thought to myself; if these two intellectual powerhouses can't figure it out then I may need to adjust my expectations.
This is an absolutely beautiful conversation. Bravo!
Great conversation. Thank you Fidias.
Thank you so much for this🙏
Fidias, I love that you’re exploring consciousness! It’s so interesting and confusing, and I think you’re going to bring a lot of good to the world by investigating it and bringing together minds to discuss these issues
I was riveted the entire time. Two INCREDIBLE minds... thinking as one by the end.
Absolutely brilliant conversation. 11/10
incredible collaboration! can't get better than this.
Very gooood convo, listened to it immediately when I saw it yesterday! Have listened to it twice now, gaining some insight in hindsight
great conversation. thanks. the passion is so important. beautiful
Superb and incredibly stimulating. Thank you for making these two bright intellects available to us.
I really really loved this a lot. True scientists. This was so heartfelt my mirror neurons activated. One of the best interview / "debate" from the topic.. live concept worked very well. ❤
This was rad to see these two together in person.
I loved the reference to Wagner's Tristan und Isolde which of course was partly inspired by reading Schopenhauer. It is about mystical experience: Isolde's love-death (liebestod) at the end is really a transfiguration (verklärung) in which all desire is either transcended or perfectly fulfilled.
one of the best discussions on the topic. These are really two great mind coming to a potential new way of looking at reality without throwing the science out and without being physicalist.
I LOVED this discussion. Finally it’s a real clash of worldviews, and it’s often only in such clashes that something new and potentially true has the exciting possibility of emerging.
Thank you so much for this. 🙏🏻
You can see the difference in quality of the debate when it is face to face. I enjoyed it very much.
I found your podcast because of h3. The topics you cover are awesome and the h3 crew thinks so as well.
Great conversation. Good fun!
wow what a talk people are finally seeing that we need to mix science with metaphysics to overstand consciousness! the world of the not physical is a real one! this is how debate is done at the highest Level! beautiful to see in this dull age of people staring at smart phones! the way he sets up the guy to explain his theory, without telling the listener and we only know because he was so gracious to acknowledge that was what he was doing. faith in humanity restored! Thankyou to all of you SUBCRIBED!
1:15:14 Oh the quips between these two ! Loving this!
This was great! First time understood what Kastrup really thinks...Thanks Koch going to the points with your questions!
The GRACE training offered by Upaya Zen Center addresses "runaway empathy" (offered March 2024 online and September 2024 in person). This training draws on neuroscience, social psychology, ethics, and contemplative perspectives to foster compassion and resilience. It teaches how to avoid burning out in the face of suffering.
The hypothesis of external universal mind where I recognise Kastrup. This clear and eloquent language is very much tingling my brain.
So engaging, honest and inspirational 🙏☀️
This was incredible. Thank you all, Koch incredible smart he got the best out of Bernardo with his very smartly placed "challenges". I think that we got the best explanation of Bernardos worldview right here.
Christof Koch, Thank you for the positive inspirational words for the youth of the world. I do so wish main stream media were more accountable for what they push into the minds of the society they inhabit and will leave to the next generation. Be Blessed
thank you for this Fidias !
This is the best podcast I have ever listened to. Why? Because Bernardo is effectively being forced /encouraged to explain and justify his theory. Given all the evidence from science, philosophy and para psychology It seems very unlikely idealism is wrong and the issue remaining will be for those of us in the idealistic camp what is the exact nature of such. Broadly IMO Bernardo is very close and how in hells name can we expect better, but we do and must pursue this philosophy. There is still a coherent version of God or Gods or even conscious agents needed. Plurality seems absurd so a monotheistic holistic intelligence has my money.......God.
Very interesting I love listening to these
Referencing studies of precognition like effects (Electrophysiology of Intuition: Pre-stimulus Responses in Group and Individual Participants Using a Roulette Paradigm) I think this helps support the argument they make 25:30 about mental states of physical matter and it's interactions with a persons mental state and it's ability to react before an image is physically shown. This leans towards the mental/consciousness is fundamental to the physical world.
The Cat's Meow ! TBH, I wasn't expecting CK too be so open to having alternative views "on the table". In their last public discussion he seemed rather skeptical, which any good scientist/philosopher/big thinker ought to be. There is little question that psychedelics have been useful/influential in that regard. Most people tend to just remain stuck in their ways, especially after a certain age. Which is a main reason why the current mainstream position persists. & its outright pathological more than anything else IMHO. Even a show like closer to truth is barely willing to closely examine ANY form of idealism with a 10 foot pole. They'll very occasionally brush against it in passing yet even entertain theology ad nauseum mind you. Behaviorism, eliminativism & functionalism & such have been among our darkest times in recent science/academia/thinking. & entire generations have been affected by it, almost as if such notions(alt views) have been clearly debunked long ago. BTW CK & Walter Lewin use the same fashion designer.🤣
Superb discussion.❤
Wow, i am impresst Mr Koch, Wow, you should Look Up the Work of Dr. Michael Levin
great discussion! well done fidias. it's good to let people talk it out. one note about the simulation argument: the "simulation" of a kidney would be a dialysis machine, not a computer program
Thank you for this...
Fabulous 🙏🏼 thank you for sharing 🙂
May I say something? You're the best Fidias ❤
Μπράβο ρε φίλε, πολύ όμορφο βίντεο. Συγχαρητήρια για την αυθεντικότητα σου σαν άνθρωπος και την ειλικρινή επιθυμία σου να μάθεις νέα πράγματα και να βελτιωθείς. Ο Bernardo αγαπά ανθρώπους αυθεντικούς σαν εσένα. Μόνο και μόνο που σε κάλεσε σπίτι του για να κάνεις αυτό το podcast λέει πολλά!
Σου έυχομαι ότι καλύτερο με τα κανάλια σου. Συνέχισε έτσι! Από ένα συμπατριώτη σου που λατρεύει την δουλειά του Bernardo.
Great podcast Fidias 👏🏻
Thanks a lot, what a pleasure
LSD and MDMA allowed me to literally see through another persons experience. Mind meld
That was great!!! Thank you.🙃🙏🎶🎶🎶
Amazing podcast Fidias
Thanks!
I just want to know how you quantify 100k yeas in a trip, did it just feel like it or was there a time reference in the experience
Watching this with some interest and it never fails to amaze me, that interlect and imaturity do indeed share the same space/red coat.
An excellent exchange on the theme of consciousness. I can't resist suggesting to Fidias Podcast an interview with Dr. Sylvie Déthiollaz and psychotherapist Claude Charles Fourrier about their book "ConneXions" (Etude sur les contacts avec l'invisible), which would be a wonderful complement to this enthusiastic podcast. "Connexions" delves into the realms of the unseen, exploring the intricate tapestry of human interactions with the invisible.
Anxiety about death and the unknown can make anybody, even great minds, loose their minds: or is that cross the dissociative boundary.
can anyone pass this onto Bernardo Kastrup. thanks you .
Dear Bernardo,
Immersing myself in your literary universe and auditory odysseys has been akin to navigating through an expansive ocean, where each book and interview is a captivating wave. Among these, my recent voyage through your dialogue with Kristoph Koch stood out as a remarkable endeavor. Like skilled sailors at the helm of their ships, you both navigated the tumultuous seas of cognitive frontiers, endeavoring to bridge disparate islands of thought. In this intellectual journey, you nearly wove a seamless whole save for a single thread that compelled me to reach out.
This thread pertains to our shared view on the nature of the Mind at Large (MAL) - an entity void of consciousness and self-reflection. Yet, allow me to guide you through a hidden estuary, a secret passageway that meanders from our conscious mind to intertwine with the MAL. Imagine this pathway as a river that, in its pursuit, becomes one with the ocean, where the waters of individual perception merge with the vastness of MAL. Here, in this confluence, a loop is born, thriving on the energy of self-reflection - not ours, but that of the MAL itself. Drawn irresistibly to this loop, the MAL explores patterns within reality, creating a symphony of union.
In this spirit, I leave you with the whispers of a poem by the 12th-century Andalusian mystic, Ibn Arabi, a melody that has resonated deeply within me. May it serve as a key to unlock an emotional and intellectual union on your journey.
ruclips.net/video/0296u91fsmo/видео.htmlsi=O-XirBMhuESayqTh
Your explorations have been a beacon of inspiration, illuminating my quest for understanding. It is with a heart full of gratitude that I share this crack in my intellectual armor, hoping it may enrich your journey as much as your words have enriched mine.
With warm regards and best wishes for the paths ahead. Hasan Asif M.D
Im in awe of how you express your thoughts. Poetry ❤
Someone have any cool ideas of *researchable* research questions for this idealism? Conducting a thesis for masters!! Accepting any insight :)
Bernardo is very polite even when someone has a different approach/opinion.What he has an issue with is controlling his emotions when someone tries to 'attack' him but i feel he is avoiding that kind of debates these days(and he does well).For example Sabine.
He has been quite aggressive in attacking some folks....e.g. Sean Carroll (of many worlds fame).
Koch mentioned his new book about to be published but here he is moving more towards Bernardo's way of thinking. Does this mean his new book isn't worth buying😮
Great discussion! I really like their views and enjoy thinking about the views. I though still think consciousness just just the music played from the specific instrument you. A flute sounds different than a piano etc. my subjective experience is different from yours, the various trips they had we individual to themselves not shared. If they both tripped and found each other in the seeming hallucination then I could consider it to be an undergirding reality. Their telling makes me think of peoples individual realities in religion, politics, the arts, all described as emotional individualistic. We attach to our feelings about something and identity and craft reason to support those emotions, feelings.
Bernardo left his cave to have a convo face to face? Am I taking crazy pills? I joke.
Great conversation. Thank you!
Great interview ,I love it thank you very much ,I'm agreed with BERNARDO, consciousness is fundamental, reality is just an illusion, but still a big mystery because everything look real, but reality is not as it seems, also we don't die, because ours body is just an avatar, we live in a cosmic hologram, we are the universe experience itself.
Awesome!
welcome bernardo
At 1hr 5 minutes Bernardo says, "You had an ecstatic experience and that is coloring your expectation". Then he begins to talk about battling a demon for 100,000 years. That is also coloring his expectation as well. I really hope Bernardo takes some time to dive deep and learn about Indian philosophical schools of thought. He will gain so much insight from Nyaya, Sankhya, Patanjali Yoga, Advaita Vedanta etc along with the Tantric traditions. So much richness there.
Glad BK is just giving an opinion like all philosophers.
Meta cognition - self awareness - is a property of base consciousness. In other words awareness knows that it’s aware. In the same way that you know you’re aware. Of course it’s easy to overlook it because we are drawn into the drama of the world.
This is the first time professor Christof touched my heart while he was describing about his life period left and average death age and his ambitions to achieve in his remaining life. Otherwise I always got impressions that he is just mechanical kind of intellectual of realistic nature. May God prolong his life, if there is anyone otherwise he himself is a doctor lol. Regards.
It’s very hard to change personal and colective beliefs and also shfiting scientific paradigms.
At the end and the beginning there is only one sound. I felt it clear is deep huge it's similar like a breath.
I just love how Koch at 1:08:30 says: "you meet god, and then you have to do laundry the next day". I would add "You meet god and realize that you are it".
Fidias,where are you from?Cyprus?
In all the many discussions among physicalists and idealists I have heard no reference to OOB experiences. Unless the brain continues to function while apparently inert by conventional metrics, how to explain a memory of observations that would not be possible from an in body perspective?
Potential to overcome the absurdity of war ~ differences are mitigated
I wanna see a discussion between kastrup and angelo dilullo
1:05:09 Bernard explain why he had a bad trip 😅, he couldn't let it go, his ego fight to not dissolve...
What make sense given how much left hemisphere way of thinking he is.
I understand that we want to create a theory or a map of reality, but logic is just one way to explore, experience and make sense of the totality.
If logic can prove itself limited and science never claimed to be ilimitated and the only human faculty to experience reality, why we are so fixated on it?
Brilliant
We are like musical instruments being played by consciousness. Humanity also has the requisite form to make and play a diverse spectrum of instruments.
I'd like to ask everyone here if you have someone you can talk to about this kind of subject. I live in such a mundane environment where everyone is just struggling to meet ends. How to find friends you can have this kind of conversation and don't be seing as boring?