COPELAND SCROLL COMPRESSOR TEAR DOWN
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2024
- So a couple of my service techs replaced this compressor and I had them bring it back so I could cut it open and figure out what happened.
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One easy safety tip is I know of someone who died due to cutting open a container with oil vapors inside, and it exploding due to the oil vapor/air mix and a spark from their grinding wheel. You can run a nitrogen purge while cutting, which should help reduce the risk. Thanks for making these videos as is is very cool to see what is inside.
Wow :(, may their curious soul rest in peace☮️
ive known of the risk with trapped vapor in oil which is why i drain and wait a day or two to start cutting, but this just placed me into a new world of respect…
the worse flare ups for me are overheated or grounded compressors. Refrigerant grips onto the oil like crazy even after smacking the life out the casing.
This a compressor not a sealed container. This is open to atmosphere (open air) already, after pulling a vaccum on unit, and has 2 ports open that will dissapate anything left over if it heated up enough which a grinder likely wouldnt.
There isn't nearly enough volume here to have enough oxygen and oil vapor to explode. It would be a minor puff if at all.
@@hgbugalou you'd be surprised at the energy content of some of these refrigerants. I also have a different friend who combined some acetylene and oxygen in a small balloon (couple cups) and lit it on fire. When the fuel and oxidizer are mixed (like they would be in this), the explosion is waaay more powerful than a normal fireball because the flame front moves far faster than if you light the fuel on fire in the presence of air. It will be like a little bit of high explosive going off rather than a puff. From just a couple cups worth, my friend got the cops called on them because people thought it was a loud gunshot.
@@kscgaming5857 This is exactly why I made this comment. It seems safe, but eg r290/propane has a lower flammability limit of just 2.1% in air. That means if you have anything above about 2% propane, it is an explosion hazard. Even with it open to the air, you could get pockets which are >2% propane, and then be a risk.
As a nonprofessional subscriber who watches because because I like knowing how mechanical things work and enjoy the logic of diagnosis, I had hoped that you would have shown how the actual scroll mechanism works. I know that i am not your intended viewer as I assume that the professionals learned that on day 2 of tech school, but how a scroll compressor works has puzzled me since I first learned that they existed may years ago.I would guess that you have many others who watch not because they are refrigeration techs, but because they are curious.
I still enjoyed your logical approach, determined how it was murdered very much even though it left me wanting more.
I was hoping for that also. 😁
There is one fixed scroll and one orbiting scroll that basically just oscillates enough to press gasses onto the fixed scroll which is where the compression happens when they are fit into the tiny vanes through the scroll and press up against the walls of the fixed and oscillating scroll.
Look up scroll compressors, there is a shit ton of info.
I think a contributing factor may have been a faulty solder point where the incoming line that melted off was soldered to the overload switch. The points don't look burnt, but the joint into the switch is, implying that there was pretty big resistance there. I will say that the points do look used though, and in an ideal situation a thermal overload switch should look brand new.
Alternatively it *did* short to ground but the solder joint blew clear before the fuse did.
I am a residential maintenance technician still I like your videos . Great compressor analysis . I hope I will become commercial service technician.
We just had a “new customer” call to a restaurant. WIF down. Unit (installed new by others) in 2019. Compressor #2 installed in 2020 (by other). I confirmed this compressor was shot too. I Replaced the compressor, and during pump down test, noticed it did not shut off. I assumed bad lo pressure control. When I undid the capillary line I notice the stem was in the suction line. It must have been there since day one. The only time the unit ever shut off was in defrost. Ran for 3-4 years constantly and in a vacuum too. I Told the customer he’s all set now and might notice a “rebate” in his monthly electric bill. 😂😮
Excellent educational and motivational video Chris. Keep up the great work!! And stay safe out there especially with summer weather coming up! Stay hydrated.
You can tip the oil out of the suction port.
Have a site where they have killed a few compressors due to dirty condensers, they chop straw for cow bedding near by and you can clean the condensers one week and they are dirty the next. Have now fitted a delay timer so that the compressor won't restart immediately when the hp resets, reduces the starts per hour to a safe level and lets things cool down before trying to run again.
Trigger the delay timer from the crank case heater supply (assuming its on a NC contact on compressor contactor) so its a delay on restart. It won't affect normal running as usually 6 minutes (or whatever you decide) will have passed before normal cooling signal is sent, and also by doing it this way if the timer fails it fails in default run so system works ok.
Love the fact that you take time out to bring us these videos.
That overload looks like the lid switch on my old (now replaced) washing machine. The full machine current went through that switch. On my machine, the contact pin shifted slightly, causing an arcing fault to happen. The switch on your compressor looks similar. It melted because it was arcing. I might be wrong, but that's what my eyes tell me.
Thoughts on the HPC trip problem: As much as I HATE electronically controlled equipment, it may be neccisary for this problem. A simple microprocessor to count trips. If it trips more than maybe 2 or 3 times in a 2 hour period, then lock out and require a manual reset. Maybe just lock for an hour or so, then auto-reset ONCE. If it trips again, then lock until reset manually.
No way!! I literally just cut a scroll compressor apart and fixed it. The bush that allows the motor shaft to spin and oscillate the moving scroll had seized. I cleaned it up nicely and it runs beautifully.
Great video, Chris. It would be interesting to see videos of you opening up other failed components.
"Can we fix it? Nope it's f....."
Someone in pakistan will find a way to get it running for few weeks & they would weld it back all together then paint it & slap a high quality danfoss sticker on it.
@@KuntalGhosh 😂😂😂 You’re 100% right
Thank you for the the shared ideas Ismael Rwanda kigali down in Africa
love how he said got to bring the big impact out and its a dewalt :) he knows whats good
Chris, now that you got that compressor stripped down, save those silver contacts. Over time, it will add up in value. Who knows how our economy is going if we'll need something to buy or barter with. Some in Washington don't value our future.
Those toc contacts were like new I think that was a manufacturing defect on the coil to toc connection... are they crimped or soldered??? Either way it was done badly..
591 Thumbs uP I had a Chris Sighting on May 4. You were south in the pass coming out of HD around 2 ish. I didn't get a chance to honk and give you a thumbs up, of course you would have thought I was some crazy person....:)
That's awesome bud yeah I was finishing up an ice machine install
We have sensors all over the place that link to the company issued associate phones and other inventory equipment. Any pressure or electrical related alarms are sent to the management teams but over temp case warnings and warnings on the walk in doors being left open or even if the cases are overloaded with product the phone will pop up a notification telling us to go check it out. It even puts a work order in if no one checks on it and clears the message out in enough time.
No disassemble Johnny 5 is alive
Just not that compressor😂😂
Wow that was a blast from the past, I haven't seen short circuit since I was a kid!!
I took one of those Frederator compressors pissed off the EPA in the process, but I made it into a silent air compressor
We have the same issue in AZ. HP tripping during the summer. We're trying to switch all our equipment to R448a from R404a in order to bring down our high sides.
See this quite a lot. It bugs me a lot that compressors use an internal overload.
Being a compressor detective will lead you to your cause of failure. CSI Riverside....starring HVACR VIDEOS......it was Mr Plum in the library with the candelabra...😂.
Awesome video and detective work Chris....we all should be compressor detectives and figure out why they died ir were murdered.
Keep cutting everything open, you will always learn something. From what I understand the circles are from the CNC machining process. They can be seen in places where parts don't rub or orbit.
That’s wire’s burned indicates of multiple reasons. 1. It could be restriction of condenser coil air flow. 2. Overcharge system. 3. Power supply conductor loosen contacts. The first two is related to what your mentioned about short cycling, and that’s related to either over charge or dirtied condenser coil.
I’m in Iowa state. The temperature difference, and average altitude around it will play a big role when it comes to charging system.
This is so bad ass to see. Thanks so much for doing this Chris 😊
Good job Chris.
Educational thanks! Got a question for someone...I used to work on Island resorts and the catamarans would pitch heavily in rough seas and the fridges never missed a beat as far as I know. Tilting of a fridge is not recommended whilst it is running due to the oil getting into the refrigerant..is that for old fridges only(worn seals)?
I've never seen a compressor with compression fittings on it like that. you know when you got compression fittings installed on your compressor pipes you're changing it way too often. I'm not sure what kind of maintenance you think could have saved the compressor but the only regular maintenance that could even help is cleaning the coils.
I don't know why these refrigeration guys always gotta have fused disconnects. But as an electrician, I can say it's ridiculous. And in this case here, actually caused this problem.
It's always painful to see a part you installed that is busted due to a lack of maintenance, I just ordered a compressor for a mobile merchandiser that's only 3 years old (the compressor not the unit) I'm pretty sure the last time the condenser was cleaned was when the compressor was replaced. I showed up, compressor is about 80% blocked with dust and it's short cycling. Gauged up it short cycles then stays off for about 2 minutes, the pressure is equalized even with the compressor running. My bet is the compressor short cycled on head pressure until it broke the valve plates but either way I'm sure it short cycled on head pressure until something broke. I agree on opening your compressors when you can, I deal with a lot of semi hermetic compressors because I do supermarket refrigeration and I can confirm Copeland and Carlyle don't really care if you open them and poke around as long as you put it back, never cut the body of them though because they reuse the core, even if it's not warranty don't cut it because you will be throwing your core return in the trash.
A WAG: If the overload keeps switching rapidly, the contact get really hot and that might melt the insulator.
Your awesome dude I’ve learnt a lot from you more the. I ever learnt in school
We had an identical Copeland scroll like that fail in the walk in freezer at work. The controller would lock out with an error code showing phase imbalance, when measured it was 15% more. We bypassed the controller to run the unit till the new one arrived and it held out. It was only about 5 years old and in good condition and the only non serviceable part failed!!
Love your videos! Couldn’t there been water/moister in the system that overloaded the compressor?
looking back at my home country as people cut open compressors to repair them...
and they work quite good afterwards, how do they do it? don't know, but they do it.
So there wasn't any high side temp or pressure controls other than inside the compressor? A manual reset control would have protected the compressor.
Best compressor autopsy vid yet
Great Vid, Thanks
I disassembled a LG compressor from a 3.5T Lennox air conditioner condensing unit.
Symptoms: Low differential pressure output to input (HS pressure low, LS pressure high).
Could not find anything wrong inside compressor. Ever seen anything like that?
Replaced entire condensing unit as fix.
Thanks
Was it a scroll and 3 phase? Maybe it was running backwards.
Unsure if it's normal or not, but when you pull the head off of the compressor, the bearing? race is not perfectly round, it's a bit oblong, with one side missing a substantial amount of material. Now because it's a scroll, that could be perfectly normal, just looks weird.
Edit:
Seeing the overload in that condition, I agree with @jeremycampbell3497 that this was most likely an electrical connection failure on the terminal. Weak joint from the factory -> vibrations in the rack and some flooded starts due to lack of maintenance caused the crack to widen -> compressor starts going off on thermal overload, and the current running through the damaged joint begins overheating the terminal until it fails. It may have shorted just enough to blow the breaker, but then disconnected when things cooled off.
In a case when the compressor has open windings like this one, would a suction line filter drier be smart or would a liquid line filter suffice?
Best to do both
Break-down maintenance is most popular with bars and restaurants .
Maybe a compressor delay? Why or why not ??
some say, that impact does full torque not immediately, but after 10-15 continuous work. so, 1-3 seconds touch is not so efficient in teardown
Can you cut a r290 compressor? I would like to see if it's any different...
Awesome video can you do a reciprocating compressor next?
Are there compressors out there that actually can be opened and repaired and returned to service?
Semi-hermetic compressors can typically be serviced, though that may not be practical in situ.
At 6:00 as to fault to ground? With it submerged with oil, degraded oil can be an excellent conductor. With the removal of the degraded oil an draining it is possible loss.. But I totally agree with you.. I am always opening comp on weekends cuz I am puzzled an I am anal as exactly why it failed… lol I open a warranty one once an?? Lol I got in trouble for hazmat leakage during shipping back… not for cutting it open but for oil residue seeping into the cardboard 🤷🏻♂️( edited for oil base clarity )
Oil is NOT an excellent conductor, unless badly contaminated. Oil is used to insulate and cool high voltage transformers, if what you said was true they would be exploding instantly on power up.
@@mxslick50 yes you are correct .To a point; brand New POE and its counterpart PVE oil are specially designed to provide very high dielectric properties - they insulate electrical components. However PAG oil on the other hand “is” conductive.
Lubricants are normally only slightly conductive and therefore can work as insulators in transformers or switches. However, oils can also conduct electric current. Their conductivity is dependent on several different factors, including the base oil, additives and polarity. But oils that have been degraded an burnt ; do not have the same properties of conductive non conductive new oils. Due to the chemical composition changes they go through.
So not to argue your point, I was not thinking in the bases of new oil. I was basing my comment on the oils being degraded an there molecular composition being changed.
i always cut a compressor with a blender to make it fast.
I tore down a recip a couple of weeks ago for my guys. Same issue happened where I had LRA with no grounding. Single phase 240v. Both metal contacts broke off on the start winding. I replace all start components when I replace compressors. I found the old cap and saw that someone had put in a 20uf cap on a 35uf compressor. I now have the parts in my office for a "wall of shame" moment.
IF IT does not have a manual HP rest what do you recommend ?
So, drop in a salvaged stator, put it all back together, crudely weld up the case, and put 'er up on eBay as "rebuilt" at a price only 25% higher than the cost of a new compressor. (Hey, gotta get something for all your labor, right?)
I suspect they didn't notice because they're
A) Severely Understaffed...
B) Their Staff are Incompetent...
C) They just don't give a rat's read end...
or
D) Some combination of All of the Above...
These motors are just small for their hp rating. They expect the refrigerant to cool the motor . If they made it bigger so many would have not failed.
That motor is smaller than 1hp industrial induction motors or pump motors.
Here’s a novel idea for customers and everyone that does not do routine maintenance. Go ahead and charge every single customer for recurring maintenance. That way there are no issues and you can save them tons of money.
17:01 Is there some kind of contactor interlock system that can detect when a motor loses a leg (for longer than a specified threshold of time to prevent nuisance tripping) and kick out requiring a manual reset?
ICM 450. Will do that. You see them quite frequently on larger equipment to protect the components. Also the ICM 401A is a lower cost version with not as many features but, also is for phase loss.
Thermal overload relays usually detect this. Some will trip when a phase imbalance is detected by the TOL heaters.
Any motor starter would have saved this compressor and most of the ones that's been taken apart on the channel. It's amazing they are not standard on the equipment.
I always tear things apart just to learn the problems & how it work
It's a shame to lose a compressor to such an easily fixable issue. That said, thou shalt not F with pressure vessels. 😅
These wires sometimes break at the overload protector from vibrations I think. I had the same problem on a failed Maneurop MTZ piston compressor. Everything inside was totally fine and looked like new, only one wire broke off this overload switch, wasn't even melted or shorted - but it caused an open winding and unfortunately made the compressor unusable.
Its awsone when you take it apart to know what it looks like and the problem
Had to break out gold and black to get it apart.
Do tou wash towels after (how) or throw em away?
Why? Do you want them.
Just curious. They are cheap, but one on a scale maybe would wash the oil away?
@@KoScosss Wash the oil away to where? Into a sewage system? Out into the environment? Perhaps capturing the oil in cloth or paper towels for contained disposal causes the least harm to the environment.
@@ElmerCat yep, thought sewage. Could break down oils with something before though. Not that i know with what, hence why asking.
I would say it's manufacture failure. Lose connection to the terminal.
I like to tear everything apart that's failed. 😁 shred tear shred
What do you think about measurequick disabling screenshots?
Im pissed.
I will discuss it on my livestream this evening
Didn't discuss it much, does this affect your screen recording for the videos? Is there a way to pay for screenshots?
You check the bearing for shaft current.
those compressors do no seem like they are designed to be repaired...
is that even a thing? do you send them out to be rebuilt or something or do the all just go straight to the landfill?
Here in the UK you can send them away to be rebuilt; I get a pallet full of them and send sell them to the rebuilding company who pay slightly more than scrap.
Nah they are trash I don't try to rebuild them
@@HVACRVIDEOS thats a bit wasteful, isnt it?
Good video 😊
Loose connection from factory at overload
What would cause the copper plating?
My understanding is Under extreme heat situations moisture reacts with the oil and creates acid. The acid starts to eat at the copper and with the same extreme heat the copper starts to collect in the high temp areas and it actually bonds (plates) on the high heat surfaces
It is trace moisture reacting with the halocarbon forming HF. The acid dissolves copper forming a salt that is soluble in the polyether oil. Next it reacts with the steel plating copper. The newer pure HCF type refrigerants like 134A are very bad for this since the water is catalytic with that one in the presence of the copper.
How long does it take to cut a comp open from beginning to end?
10 minutes to cut the head off roughly.
Why do scroll compressors sound so much like reciprocating piston compressors? I would think scroll compressors would have a much smoother sound. Perhaps you professionals can tell the difference, but to me they sound pretty much the same.
Nice!!!!!
So this thing protected itself to death.
Exactly
Compressor had a heat stroke.
Man the smell of that nasty overheated refrigerant oil is awful.. some of the worse oil smell across the board of oils
What's the big deal and frankly who the hell cares? So much drama for so much nothing.
Much Love