As a Black woman, I appreciate that you had Jemar Tisby on the podcast! Thank you so much! I love his work! I left a prominent Pentecostal denomination that is headed by white southern men; there is very little racial or gender representation at headquarters. I was part of the 1990s-early 2000s group of Black believers who became members of multiracial churches. Because the area where I live is very diverse, I didn't think much about race and gender until 2015. That's when the veil lifted. I returned to the Black church in 2020. I agree with Jemar when he discusses the terms "racial reconciliation" verses "racial justice." Racial reconciliation points to diversity but doesn't lead members in working through the structural, systemic issues in the church; it's like a band aid. Racial justice says that members are willing to put pressure on the infection of racism, to push it out by working through the painful places of history and its current implications.
I had a similar upbringing. Except my family had been the only black pastoral staff in a pentecostal denomination in the 70s. By the time I was growing up in the 90s it didn't seem so revolutionary and Christian right was a thing. But I grew up in a diverse area, so it didn't seem so racially motivated. However, by the time Obama became president, something seemed off. I was still in the " republican nationalism" cult, so I didn't recognize all the racism. But I saw things. I was probably Candace Owens before it was a thing. But where I thought Obama didn't align with policies, and that's why we shouldn't like him...I saw racism. And I was someone who had lived a somewhat sheltered life, and now I'm experiencing micro-agressions. I keep hearing statements where I'm the token black girl. Eventually, the scales fell off my eyes. I have found it hard to find a church. I have tried going to a predominantly black church, but I fell out of place. I still want to go to a multicultural church. But it seems impossible in this current climate if I still want to go to a charismatic church.
@@fmoovmkr wow! It really is something when the veil is pulled off and you see people's true hearts. As of now, I attend a church online and we are growing an active online e-church. Im not sure how sustainable this is but it's where I am for now and I love it. At this point, I am not ruling out a multiracial church, but if I do return to one, I'd like to be in a body that's willing to do the work of racial justice as a spiritual discipline.
@@BramptonAnglican hello Canada! What about Black Pentecostals in the US are you curious about? I'm certainly no spokesperson but perhaps I can provide an answer or two.
Thank you Tim for your work in the real WAY of Jesus. I'm a new fan and an old fan of Dr. Tisby! These are the conversations to be had instead of book banning and hateful rhetoric! Mich appreciated fellas!
In 2016, a man I looked up to in the church told me after the service “people that look like you illegally voted for Hillary !!!” I was so blind to what church people say behind our (minorities) backs . This was a person I really looked up to, he taught me Bible history.
I had to leave my denomination around that time. By family had made racial inroads in the denomination in the 60s and 70s and we thought it wqs in the past. But when Obama became president it was like no work had been done at all. Still very racially biased. I had ro go. And it's sad. But the denomination is dying. They blamed it own the move to megachurchres. I blame it own their backwards mindsets.
@@missrobin2088 he knew deep inside his newly formed maga brain that this wasn’t true. His person won but he couldn’t accept that more people voted for Hillary
Tim - definitely one of the best ways to start my week! Thank you for creating the space for such an edifying, courageous conversation. Lots of challenges to take away from it.
One of the campus pastors where I serve on Sundays said racism would just go away if “the liberals” would just let it go away. I am greatly challenged to be in the space where I can confront these people without losing community with them….. I appreciate the work as always.
As a white woman, the support for Trump also felt like a portrayal. I truely cared about racial and social justice, and being justice minded and and avid reader of history, felt shocked at the lack of any attempt of understanding or digging into the real American History around race, and the root of White Supremacy indemnic in our national psyche, especially in Christianity. For my concerns I was called Marxist, babykiller, and WOKE. What? As opposed to ASLEEP? Isabell Wilkersons " Caste" broke my heart. Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States," and Lowe's " Lies My Teacher Yold Me" should be required reading for every High School History student. That the church has promoted this racist divide is our deepest sin. How arrogant and deliberately blind white Evangelicals have been. It has long troubled me. When Obama was elected, I wept. America finally got something right. Then Trump. I'm still dumbfounded by the deliberate illiteracy of the true history of the founding of this crazy nation. The Doctrine of Discovery set this gross distortion of what it means to be human into motion, and it seems like the beat just goes on. Much respect Jamar Tisby for continuing to push back against this mountain of mythological nonsense that is foisted upon us as US History. God speed.
Thank you for this interview! I'm a conservative listener but I try to seek out other perspectives as the blindspots you mentioned are very real. I grew up in the church, and in my experience there is an extreme amount of structural bias that is almost inherent to the institution. When I did student leadership in public highschool, all I had to do was show up and I could participate. In Christian young adult leadership, I had to participate in the group first as a member for a year or two, then get hand selected for the leadership team, and that led to me getting a job opportunity at a Christian organization. This structure is there since they want people who are "mature in their faith" to be leaders, but like Jemar mentioned, there are disparities down the road when it comes to representation in employment.
Dr. Tisby, do not stop being radioactive. Notice how often a Western Civilization Studies program is centered in a very conservative protestant school. Francis Schaefer touted this often in his later writings.
Thanks for your conversation. I stopped watching so many white preachers who I thought believed in the whole gospel. Jesus called believers in Him as one.
1:28:38 Also how at the DNC they excluded all Palestinian voices from the stage. They let other victims speak involved with the current middle eastern conflicts, but decidedly excluded a people group. The racial distinction to invalidate their victimhood was a disappointment to me about the DNC.
One thing the Democrat party needs is a groundswell of young people getting involved in the actual machinery of the organization. Then those young people need to force the dinosaurs out of the seats of power. That won't make the org perfect, but it will make it better. If they're in the driver's seat they can finally steer the party towards the policies we actually want.
I have always felt it would be an invasion of a safe space for me (as a white woman) to try to attend majority black churches. Especially given the history. My massive hold up in belief now is how to teach such a massively misogynistic & paternalistic to my daughter without perpetuating harm.
This is also going on in the Catholic Church too. Even though we're more diverse, here in the United States, the majority of parishes, have what you might say a predominant white, suburban type of Catholicism despite the growing hispanic population. How we've worked with that is that there's different masses so there's the English mass with the generic "default" and Spanish masses. So there's a segregation. However, there's little room for much integration, especially integration of Black Catholics too. Yes, they do go to these predominately white parishes too but sadly, a lot are invisible you might say in the Church. It's a real problem. However, there's a few black Catholic Churches that like their Evangelical counter parts do emphasize much of the same things such as justice, love, Our Lord, etc. I am white and I noticed that after trump was elected in 2016, many of the Catholic parishes, at least the ones I went to, went much the same way as their Evangelical counterparts. Yes, many went MAGA. I became increasingly uncomfortable and unsafe. I've had my share--mostly online but yes, there's been times in real life where I've been told that I can't be a Catholic and vote Democrat for examples but the worst is online when I've been called baby-killer, demoncrat, and also not a Christian for supporting Black Lives Matter, protesting police brutality, supporting immigrants, etc. So when I moved to another part of the city I live in, I decided to register at the closest Catholic church to me and it happens to be a black Catholic Church. I am one of 4 white people there but I couldn't be happier. Not only was I completely accepted with open arms but it's truly my oasis. I can breathe and truly grow spiritually there. My focus is entirely on being spiritually fed and helping my community and spreading the Love of Christ much more than having to bite my lip and feel unsafe in these other parishes where not only MAGA but also the underlying racism still lingers and sometimes rises it's ugly head too in the comments that are made around me since they think I'd be ok with it. I also understand the stupid notion of white=default and white people thinking that they own spaces and when they feel their in the minority, they feel threatened and want to hang onto power as much as possible--hence we see this gerrymandering and I'll also say the anti-immigration is a part of this too. Also, Dr. Tisby is exactly right about the history, especially the party switch with the Democrats and Republicans. It happened, it's clear it happened so when MAGAs love to show old histories of racist KKK Democrats opposing Civil Rights, etc, just shake their heads and show the actual history of it (I am a trained historian and when looking at the primary sources and interpretation and what happened, you'll how it happened). In addition, just as you pointed out about the start of the Evangelical Black church, the same happened with black Catholic parishes. Back during Jim Crow, they would go to the same Catholic parishes, but they were segregated, regulated to the loft, away from all the white parishoniers so what ended up happening is that they wanted to have their own parishes so that they could flourish and so some were started. They believe the exact same way but were able to incorporate traditions, customs, music as well as other aspects of Black spiritual traditions into their parishes. Sadly, in recent decades, due to many factors such as few people going to such parishes, lack of money due to payouts because of abuse, etc many dioceses have had to close parishes and cluster others and which ones get the chopping block first? You guessed it--the inner city or other black Catholic parishes or even Hispanic parishes or they might cluster them but they leave the big, predominately white suburban parishes. It's sad and painful because it takes out a very crucial and necessary ministry, especially in poorer neighborhoods. My parish is part of a cluster and even though it is a lower income parish and is in a lower income neighborhood, we do what we can for the community with our food pantry and try to do other things. Racism is sadly alive and well and it's an uphill battle to fight it and eradicate it but we must continue on.
I am a white man who was in the COGIC for 25 years. And I assure you that the black church is the same. I was clearly on their turf and I was treated like an interloper while I was there. Out of place and not wanted. But I had an assignment from the Lord and I was able to finish it. But it took 25 years and was very difficult and trying. I rejoice because I will receive a full reward.
Let me tell you something if they treated you like that. Then they were not behaving in a christ like manner and I would have called him out on it, but that's just me, I didn't used to be this way, but I learned to stand up for myself
@@ritahodges254 I was alone and up against a COGIC bishop. A member of the general board. Which is a powerful creature. But before I left they knew that they had made a mistake. Only because the Lord was with me. Blessings!!
@michaeldunigan1067 i just don't understand people like that. They think they're better than everybody that they know more than anybody about the Bible and most of the ones to act like that, just do not behave in a Christlike manner and II just, you know, II couldn't do it. I'm kind of out at a loss for words. Because yeah, that person's powerful, but I no longer allow their foreseed power to stop me from speaking truth to power. It took me a long time. And I still have a hard time with it sometimes, but it's just something that I've learned. You've got to stand up for yourself. I know it's hard and this was a long time ago, so he probably got a lot better at it now. But everybody's got to stand up for themselves.
I can relate. Being a minority in any environment is difficult, especially in America, where integration is still a challenge. We all have to work at it. But with that said, you can find your tribe even it the mist of it all. Speak up about feelings to the person you trust. Those conversations can start help to bring the change that will help you have a better experience
Thanks for this wonderful discussion.
As a Black woman, I appreciate that you had Jemar Tisby on the podcast! Thank you so much! I love his work! I left a prominent Pentecostal denomination that is headed by white southern men; there is very little racial or gender representation at headquarters. I was part of the 1990s-early 2000s group of Black believers who became members of multiracial churches. Because the area where I live is very diverse, I didn't think much about race and gender until 2015. That's when the veil lifted. I returned to the Black church in 2020. I agree with Jemar when he discusses the terms "racial reconciliation" verses "racial justice." Racial reconciliation points to diversity but doesn't lead members in working through the structural, systemic issues in the church; it's like a band aid. Racial justice says that members are willing to put pressure on the infection of racism, to push it out by working through the painful places of history and its current implications.
I had a similar upbringing. Except my family had been the only black pastoral staff in a pentecostal denomination in the 70s. By the time I was growing up in the 90s it didn't seem so revolutionary and Christian right was a thing. But I grew up in a diverse area, so it didn't seem so racially motivated. However, by the time Obama became president, something seemed off. I was still in the " republican nationalism" cult, so I didn't recognize all the racism. But I saw things. I was probably Candace Owens before it was a thing. But where I thought Obama didn't align with policies, and that's why we shouldn't like him...I saw racism. And I was someone who had lived a somewhat sheltered life, and now I'm experiencing micro-agressions. I keep hearing statements where I'm the token black girl. Eventually, the scales fell off my eyes. I have found it hard to find a church. I have tried going to a predominantly black church, but I fell out of place. I still want to go to a multicultural church. But it seems impossible in this current climate if I still want to go to a charismatic church.
I’ve always been curious about black Pentecostal people. We have quite a few here in Ontario Canada
@@fmoovmkr wow! It really is something when the veil is pulled off and you see people's true hearts. As of now, I attend a church online and we are growing an active online e-church. Im not sure how sustainable this is but it's where I am for now and I love it. At this point, I am not ruling out a multiracial church, but if I do return to one, I'd like to be in a body that's willing to do the work of racial justice as a spiritual discipline.
@@BramptonAnglican hello Canada! What about Black Pentecostals in the US are you curious about? I'm certainly no spokesperson but perhaps I can provide an answer or two.
Couldn’t agree more
Thank you Tim for your work in the real WAY of Jesus. I'm a new fan and an old fan of Dr. Tisby! These are the conversations to be had instead of book banning and hateful rhetoric! Mich appreciated fellas!
In 2016, a man I looked up to in the church told me after the service “people that look like you illegally voted for Hillary !!!” I was so blind to what church people say behind our (minorities) backs . This was a person I really looked up to, he taught me Bible history.
I had to leave my denomination around that time. By family had made racial inroads in the denomination in the 60s and 70s and we thought it wqs in the past. But when Obama became president it was like no work had been done at all. Still very racially biased. I had ro go. And it's sad. But the denomination is dying. They blamed it own the move to megachurchres. I blame it own their backwards mindsets.
Did he explain how you illegally voted for Hillary?
@@missrobin2088 he knew deep inside his newly formed maga brain that this wasn’t true. His person won but he couldn’t accept that more people voted for Hillary
Sick and unchristian on so many levels. Go to an Ethiopian church and quit wasting your life with these awful people.
Im going to purchase my book ASAPingly.
Dr. Jamar Tisby, thank you for giving language to express my concerns and frustrations. Simply Amazing.
Tim - definitely one of the best ways to start my week! Thank you for creating the space for such an edifying, courageous conversation. Lots of challenges to take away from it.
It is happening right now in Texas! 2024! Vote Blue, Vote Blue to equalize politics.
Dr. Tisby should make video shorts called Tisby's Tidbits.
Tisbits
Dr. Tisbury was very informative in a simple way that novice can understand. Have him on again.
YES
This is SO GOOD. SO, so good. Thank you 🙏🏽
One of the campus pastors where I serve on Sundays said racism would just go away if “the liberals” would just let it go away. I am greatly challenged to be in the space where I can confront these people without losing community with them….. I appreciate the work as always.
As a white woman, the support for Trump also felt like a portrayal. I truely cared about racial and social justice, and being justice minded and and avid reader of history, felt shocked at the lack of any attempt of understanding or digging into the real American History around race, and the root of White Supremacy indemnic in our national psyche, especially in Christianity. For my concerns I was called Marxist, babykiller, and WOKE. What? As opposed to ASLEEP? Isabell Wilkersons " Caste" broke my heart. Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States," and Lowe's " Lies My Teacher Yold Me" should be required reading for every High School History student. That the church has promoted this racist divide is our deepest sin. How arrogant and deliberately blind white Evangelicals have been. It has long troubled me. When Obama was elected, I wept. America finally got something right. Then Trump. I'm still dumbfounded by the deliberate illiteracy of the true history of the founding of this crazy nation. The Doctrine of Discovery set this gross distortion of what it means to be human into motion, and it seems like the beat just goes on. Much respect Jamar Tisby for continuing to push back against this mountain of mythological nonsense that is foisted upon us as US History. God speed.
Wow! Tell the truth, my Sister. I believe that a growing percentage of us able to hear it, and take it to heart. Bless you.
Correction. Not portrayal but betrayal. Auto correct.
Thank you for this interview! I'm a conservative listener but I try to seek out other perspectives as the blindspots you mentioned are very real.
I grew up in the church, and in my experience there is an extreme amount of structural bias that is almost inherent to the institution. When I did student leadership in public highschool, all I had to do was show up and I could participate. In Christian young adult leadership, I had to participate in the group first as a member for a year or two, then get hand selected for the leadership team, and that led to me getting a job opportunity at a Christian organization.
This structure is there since they want people who are "mature in their faith" to be leaders, but like Jemar mentioned, there are disparities down the road when it comes to representation in employment.
Dr. Tisby, do not stop being radioactive. Notice how often a Western Civilization Studies program is centered in a very conservative protestant school. Francis Schaefer touted this often in his later writings.
Looking forward to this interview as a black Anglican.
Thanks for your conversation. I stopped watching so many white preachers who I thought believed in the whole gospel. Jesus called believers in Him as one.
Thank you for this interview!
So good! Looking forward to the next one!
1:28:38 Also how at the DNC they excluded all Palestinian voices from the stage. They let other victims speak involved with the current middle eastern conflicts, but decidedly excluded a people group. The racial distinction to invalidate their victimhood was a disappointment to me about the DNC.
One thing the Democrat party needs is a groundswell of young people getting involved in the actual machinery of the organization. Then those young people need to force the dinosaurs out of the seats of power. That won't make the org perfect, but it will make it better. If they're in the driver's seat they can finally steer the party towards the policies we actually want.
Amazing interview -
I have always felt it would be an invasion of a safe space for me (as a white woman) to try to attend majority black churches. Especially given the history.
My massive hold up in belief now is how to teach such a massively misogynistic & paternalistic to my daughter without perpetuating harm.
As a Black woman, I appreciate you wanting to uphold a safe space for us. But know that you are welcome. ❤
Please read the Color of Compromise, as well as The Spirit of Justice!
This is also going on in the Catholic Church too. Even though we're more diverse, here in the United States, the majority of parishes, have what you might say a predominant white, suburban type of Catholicism despite the growing hispanic population. How we've worked with that is that there's different masses so there's the English mass with the generic "default" and Spanish masses. So there's a segregation. However, there's little room for much integration, especially integration of Black Catholics too. Yes, they do go to these predominately white parishes too but sadly, a lot are invisible you might say in the Church. It's a real problem. However, there's a few black Catholic Churches that like their Evangelical counter parts do emphasize much of the same things such as justice, love, Our Lord, etc.
I am white and I noticed that after trump was elected in 2016, many of the Catholic parishes, at least the ones I went to, went much the same way as their Evangelical counterparts. Yes, many went MAGA. I became increasingly uncomfortable and unsafe. I've had my share--mostly online but yes, there's been times in real life where I've been told that I can't be a Catholic and vote Democrat for examples but the worst is online when I've been called baby-killer, demoncrat, and also not a Christian for supporting Black Lives Matter, protesting police brutality, supporting immigrants, etc.
So when I moved to another part of the city I live in, I decided to register at the closest Catholic church to me and it happens to be a black Catholic Church. I am one of 4 white people there but I couldn't be happier. Not only was I completely accepted with open arms but it's truly my oasis. I can breathe and truly grow spiritually there. My focus is entirely on being spiritually fed and helping my community and spreading the Love of Christ much more than having to bite my lip and feel unsafe in these other parishes where not only MAGA but also the underlying racism still lingers and sometimes rises it's ugly head too in the comments that are made around me since they think I'd be ok with it.
I also understand the stupid notion of white=default and white people thinking that they own spaces and when they feel their in the minority, they feel threatened and want to hang onto power as much as possible--hence we see this gerrymandering and I'll also say the anti-immigration is a part of this too. Also, Dr. Tisby is exactly right about the history, especially the party switch with the Democrats and Republicans. It happened, it's clear it happened so when MAGAs love to show old histories of racist KKK Democrats opposing Civil Rights, etc, just shake their heads and show the actual history of it (I am a trained historian and when looking at the primary sources and interpretation and what happened, you'll how it happened).
In addition, just as you pointed out about the start of the Evangelical Black church, the same happened with black Catholic parishes. Back during Jim Crow, they would go to the same Catholic parishes, but they were segregated, regulated to the loft, away from all the white parishoniers so what ended up happening is that they wanted to have their own parishes so that they could flourish and so some were started. They believe the exact same way but were able to incorporate traditions, customs, music as well as other aspects of Black spiritual traditions into their parishes.
Sadly, in recent decades, due to many factors such as few people going to such parishes, lack of money due to payouts because of abuse, etc many dioceses have had to close parishes and cluster others and which ones get the chopping block first? You guessed it--the inner city or other black Catholic parishes or even Hispanic parishes or they might cluster them but they leave the big, predominately white suburban parishes. It's sad and painful because it takes out a very crucial and necessary ministry, especially in poorer neighborhoods.
My parish is part of a cluster and even though it is a lower income parish and is in a lower income neighborhood, we do what we can for the community with our food pantry and try to do other things. Racism is sadly alive and well and it's an uphill battle to fight it and eradicate it but we must continue on.
Yay!
43:02 the energy when Dr. Tisby says "muster the data" 😂❤ like go on then....do it
I want dr. risky to speak at york alliance church in york pa!
Great interview! BTW - Not sure if you realize this, but Donald Trump ad comes up 10 minutes in. 😕
Dr. Tisby, I think your friend is now one of my pastors! Matt Myers? 😊
I can say I saw it in the 1980's the pastor did not want black people in the church
Was I the only one who got a Prager U ad before this video ?? 😂🙄
I am a white man who was in the COGIC for 25 years. And I assure you that the black church is the same. I was clearly on their turf and I was treated like an interloper while I was there. Out of place and not wanted. But I had an assignment from the Lord and I was able to finish it. But it took 25 years and was very difficult and trying. I rejoice because I will receive a full reward.
Let me tell you something if they treated you like that. Then they were not behaving in a christ like manner and I would have called him out on it, but that's just me, I didn't used to be this way, but I learned to stand up for myself
@@ritahodges254 I was alone and up against a COGIC bishop. A member of the general board. Which is a powerful creature. But before I left they knew that they had made a mistake. Only because the Lord was with me. Blessings!!
@michaeldunigan1067 i just don't understand people like that. They think they're better than everybody that they know more than anybody about the Bible and most of the ones to act like that, just do not behave in a Christlike manner and II just, you know, II couldn't do it. I'm kind of out at a loss for words. Because yeah, that person's powerful, but I no longer allow their foreseed power to stop me from speaking truth to power. It took me a long time. And I still have a hard time with it sometimes, but it's just something that I've learned. You've got to stand up for yourself. I know it's hard and this was a long time ago, so he probably got a lot better at it now. But everybody's got to stand up for themselves.
I can relate. Being a minority in any environment is difficult, especially in America, where integration is still a challenge. We all have to work at it. But with that said, you can find your tribe even it the mist of it all. Speak up about feelings to the person you trust. Those conversations can start help to bring the change that will help you have a better experience
@@Hermothersdaughter665 I trust the Lord and talk to Him a lot.
Try the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church. Don’t waste time with modernist Christianity.
MAGA! Sorry Jemar. Cry us a river.