Aspie female diagnosed aged 60....deception on a personal level has always been an issue for me..I hate lying and when I realise or find out I have been so I’m devastated and never want to see that person again...lying by omission catches me out every time as I believe that people are like me...and they are not.
That’s really frustrating. I’m autistic, hyperlexic as a four year old, did extremely well early in school, though as I got older my issues with learning were in regard to how I was asked questions. Often the teacher would laugh at my answer as did the other children. If I had been put through that test with the dolls I would have wondered why I was being asked a stupid question because of how it is being asked in this experiment. I would have said to look in the box because the alternative would be that Sally must be stupid , it would be obviously in the box. I surely would have been wondering why I was being put through this and really just wanted those dolls and probably would have come up with my own story. If Simon Baron Cohen simply put this idea to the child asking them to ask a question in their own words, how would they ask that? Then you may get some insight as to how the autistic child is processing instead of asking in NT language and still not really understanding exactly why each autistic child is responding in a similar way. It’s like when you’re in the playground at kindergarten and they’re trying to make you interact with others and use the climbing equipment, why would you if instead you could use the swing that has so much more to offer, rhythm and repetitive movement, much more important to an autistic child.
WTF @ (6:27) Even with there being a later development possibility of theory of mind, this experiment just shows that the wording used with ASDs needs to be different than with NTs. Instead of asking "Where will Sally look for her marble?" You may first have to give the instruction, I need you to pretend like you are Sally. So you were outside and you didn't see when the switch was made... But even then, you cannot emphasize the word "WHERE" because it's just another social cue/hoop to jump through that would give them an opportunity to respond quickly and end the question/conversation/interaction. They hear "where" and they point to where it is. It's possible that they're even disregarding all of the other sounds you're making, just as you would do if you were listening for key words in another language after asking for directions. Professionals keep regurgitating the same faulty reasoning/logic from this experiment again and again. Isn't science supposed to be about trying to figure things out without the influence of others? NT perspectives have not been accounting for the limitations that an ASD mind encounters when it's just trying to get through social interactions/conversations. Even if all the right factors are there (trust, incentive, will power, attention span, mental energy, positive/open attitude, etc.), the child may simply have no interest in applying genuine effort to your experiment. Most children on the spectrum are an excellent judge of whether someone's agenda is beneficial to them or not, and satisfying an adult's professional curiosity is not going to be very high on their priority list. NT children may be entertained by social stories but an ASD child may just be jumping through hoops and responding when cued because they think they'll get to play with/keep the dolls. Try it twice on both groups and see if you can tell how their perception of your role changes. Will they try reason with you or communicate and point out how they've already gone over it (my NT hypothesis)? Or will they react negatively/withdraw or regard you as a defective person because you're clearly doing it on purpose and acting like things are normal (my ASD hypothesis)? It doesn't make sense that if they avoid conversations everywhere else, they would be genuinely interested in a forced encounter for no benefit. But the biggest issue is the question(s). There are limitations in gauging someone's accuracy of language. Even if the ASD child was open to an experiment and determined to get the answer right, people on the spectrum often give auto-response answers or just tell you what you may want to hear. I still do the same thing in my 30s just to get through the forced interactions/social pleasantries quicker.
The Autistic hears the word "where" and then fails to know what is in the other person's mind, because Autistics are very poor at theorising what is in other people's minds.
You do not need to give the instruction "I need you to pretend like you are Sally", because the child is an external observer of the scene; he needs to be an external observer in order to give the -prediction- of how other people are going to act, this is one of the core characteristics of ToM (predicting other people future actions in the basis of what their desires, beliefs, feelings might be). In the experiment, they tell the kid that "Sally went outside for a walk," One of the "steps" in the theory of mind development is something called "Seeing leads to knowing" this means that kids understand that perceptual activity (see, hear, or being told) is required in order to gain knowledge. You can not tell explicitly to the kid "So you were outside and you didn´t see when the switch was made" because the point of the experiment is to evaluate if the kid understands that the idea that Sally has remained (that the marble is in the basket where she put it) even when the reality changed because the actual location of the marble now is in the box. Professionals are constantly using this experiment because is one of the most useful ones to know if a kid understands the difference between reality (that is, in fact, certain) and a belief (that is just what someone thinks that usually is not certain) in this case of changed locations. In order for the experiment to be conducted the kid needs to have a certain level of language abilities (receptive and expressive) so the experiment results would not be wrong because of this reason. It is clear that when people has language comprehension difficulties they use nonverbal cues to grasp the meaning, but as I said before, this is not the case of the experiment, the evaluator needs to know previously the kid and his individual profile ( ex. his language, sensory and cognitive abilities) in order to contextualize the experiment. I imagine that it is difficult to get through social interactions and conversations, a good professional must take into account the characteristics that his patient has. About trust, and a positive attitude, that´s why the examiner must establish rapport early with the child before the experiment, and it would be better if the examiner would be the regular therapist of the kid (that works with him 2 times per week). Incentive, that's why the experiment is presented with toys and not in another way that is more formal or academic. About will power, as a professional, you need to take into account before doing any assessment what is the actual level of cooperativity of the kid, and at the end of the report, if the child did not cooperate as it was planned, you need to put in the report that the results may not be completely trustworthy and that you suggest that the experiment needs to be done again in another way (similar but not exactly the same one) another day. I think that attention span may not be a problem, the experiment is really quick, and as a professional, you need to assure that your patient is paying sufficient attention, not having other people, objects, or external noise over the place that may distract the kid (if you are the therapist of the kid you know the duration of attention spans of your patient and under what circumstances this can be altered). Same with mental energy, experiments like this may be applied not at the end of the day when the kid is tired, or for example, if the kid had a difficult day at school and he is not cooperating at all, you should do the experiment another day. Nowadays the evaluation of the theory of mind, consisting of multiple experiments to be more reliable. About auto response answers, that's why in the complete assessment we ask more questions to the kid to assure that he understands what are false beliefs, the experiment showed in the video is a little bit simplified in order for people that have no background knowledge about the theme to understand it. Hope this is useful and clarifies doubts, I am a Language Speech Pathologist and Audiologist from Mexico City. By the way, english is my second language, I wrote the best I could and I tried to give complex ideas in the simpler way possible.
Why is this not being used for diagnosis? My three kids ALL did so. They pointed at the box where the hidden thing was. And to give you feedback. As a 56 year old: I WANT her to look into the box instead of the basket. She wants to get her marble, so she MUST look into the box, otherwise things are not ok and won't fit together. Things have to be correct! - - it is not that kids cannot look through the story. But the story is wrong and has to be corrected. It is like a huge urge to justice, I cannot overcome.
I saw a talk where it said 20% of the children said Sally would look in her basket. Why do they never get mentioned? Some autistics are very intelligent. Even as children.
Was the cloth put back and covered the basket again after the marble was stolen by the second girl during the original exam? Because one of the thing about autistic people is that their thinking style is different. It may not due to that they didn't know the first girl would not know the marble was stolen, but because they thought, "if the basket is not properly covered, then the first girl would see it through immediately. That's why she would go to the second girl's box to look for it." When trying to understand people's mental process, you need to not only do experiment, but also interview them and ask them about what they are thinking. This very old experiment's design failed to understand that there's a possible explain of this kind of exprient result. That's why, when it comes to the clinical aspects of psychology, especially autism, it is always better the researcher is also having this kind of condition themselves, because it is hard for regular researchers who have no experience to understand. The most recent inspiring theories in autism are mostly from autistic researchers. Another good example is some of the most effective evidence-based psychotherapies in the recent 50 years were invented by psychologists who have mental disorders such as personality disorders. We need more diverse psychologists, neurodivergent, with disabilities, queers and trans, racial minorities...
I propose that the banana analogy is caused by the infant picking up the emotion of humour and fun that the mother communicated in her action and the object was the medium not the message.
1 maybe the child thought the playdoll girl who stole the item would tell the other playdoll girl the truth, and thereby the okay doll girl would look in the correct spot. 2. Maybe the boy is frustrated that other people can’t figure out why he’s pointing. lol
That's funny. I used to take everything in a literal sense as a child and got made fun of for it. I couldn't tell lies but often didn't get jokes were jokes either. I get it now though :) But sometimes I can't help but be honest.
Notice that Sally is blonde and Ann is dark haired, Ann is stealing from Sally's basket...and she says "naughty Ann"...yep these racist stereotypes persist...truly unconscious bias... pathetic 🥴
Aspie female diagnosed aged 60....deception on a personal level has always been an issue for me..I hate lying and when I realise or find out I have been so I’m devastated and never want to see that person again...lying by omission catches me out every time as I believe that people are like me...and they are not.
ME TOO! I AM GOING TO FIND THEM ALL AND STOP THEM MUHAHAHAHA 😂😂😂 this world is our and we will show them how easy it is for us to spot LIARS
That’s really frustrating. I’m autistic, hyperlexic as a four year old, did extremely well early in school, though as I got older my issues with learning were in regard to how I was asked questions. Often the teacher would laugh at my answer as did the other children. If I had been put through that test with the dolls I would have wondered why I was being asked a stupid question because of how it is being asked in this experiment. I would have said to look in the box because the alternative would be that Sally must be stupid , it would be obviously in the box. I surely would have been wondering why I was being put through this and really just wanted those dolls and probably would have come up with my own story. If Simon Baron Cohen simply put this idea to the child asking them to ask a question in their own words, how would they ask that? Then you may get some insight as to how the autistic child is processing instead of asking in NT language and still not really understanding exactly why each autistic child is responding in a similar way. It’s like when you’re in the playground at kindergarten and they’re trying to make you interact with others and use the climbing equipment, why would you if instead you could use the swing that has so much more to offer, rhythm and repetitive movement, much more important to an autistic child.
WTF @ (6:27) Even with there being a later development possibility of theory of mind, this experiment just shows that the wording used with ASDs needs to be different than with NTs. Instead of asking "Where will Sally look for her marble?" You may first have to give the instruction, I need you to pretend like you are Sally. So you were outside and you didn't see when the switch was made... But even then, you cannot emphasize the word "WHERE" because it's just another social cue/hoop to jump through that would give them an opportunity to respond quickly and end the question/conversation/interaction. They hear "where" and they point to where it is. It's possible that they're even disregarding all of the other sounds you're making, just as you would do if you were listening for key words in another language after asking for directions. Professionals keep regurgitating the same faulty reasoning/logic from this experiment again and again. Isn't science supposed to be about trying to figure things out without the influence of others? NT perspectives have not been accounting for the limitations that an ASD mind encounters when it's just trying to get through social interactions/conversations. Even if all the right factors are there (trust, incentive, will power, attention span, mental energy, positive/open attitude, etc.), the child may simply have no interest in applying genuine effort to your experiment. Most children on the spectrum are an excellent judge of whether someone's agenda is beneficial to them or not, and satisfying an adult's professional curiosity is not going to be very high on their priority list. NT children may be entertained by social stories but an ASD child may just be jumping through hoops and responding when cued because they think they'll get to play with/keep the dolls. Try it twice on both groups and see if you can tell how their perception of your role changes. Will they try reason with you or communicate and point out how they've already gone over it (my NT hypothesis)? Or will they react negatively/withdraw or regard you as a defective person because you're clearly doing it on purpose and acting like things are normal (my ASD hypothesis)? It doesn't make sense that if they avoid conversations everywhere else, they would be genuinely interested in a forced encounter for no benefit. But the biggest issue is the question(s). There are limitations in gauging someone's accuracy of language. Even if the ASD child was open to an experiment and determined to get the answer right, people on the spectrum often give auto-response answers or just tell you what you may want to hear. I still do the same thing in my 30s just to get through the forced interactions/social pleasantries quicker.
The Autistic hears the word "where" and then fails to know what is in the other person's mind, because Autistics are very poor at theorising what is in other people's minds.
You do not need to give the instruction "I need you to pretend like you are Sally", because the child is an external observer of the scene; he needs to be an external observer in order to give the -prediction- of how other people are going to act, this is one of the core characteristics of ToM (predicting other people future actions in the basis of what their desires, beliefs, feelings might be). In the experiment, they tell the kid that "Sally went outside for a walk," One of the "steps" in the theory of mind development is something called "Seeing leads to knowing" this means that kids understand that perceptual activity (see, hear, or being told) is required in order to gain knowledge. You can not tell explicitly to the kid "So you were outside and you didn´t see when the switch was made" because the point of the experiment is to evaluate if the kid understands that the idea that Sally has remained (that the marble is in the basket where she put it) even when the reality changed because the actual location of the marble now is in the box. Professionals are constantly using this experiment because is one of the most useful ones to know if a kid understands the difference between reality (that is, in fact, certain) and a belief (that is just what someone thinks that usually is not certain) in this case of changed locations.
In order for the experiment to be conducted the kid needs to have a certain level of language abilities (receptive and expressive) so the experiment results would not be wrong because of this reason. It is clear that when people has language comprehension difficulties they use nonverbal cues to grasp the meaning, but as I said before, this is not the case of the experiment, the evaluator needs to know previously the kid and his individual profile ( ex. his language, sensory and cognitive abilities) in order to contextualize the experiment. I imagine that it is difficult to get through social interactions and conversations, a good professional must take into account the characteristics that his patient has.
About trust, and a positive attitude, that´s why the examiner must establish rapport early with the child before the experiment, and it would be better if the examiner would be the regular therapist of the kid (that works with him 2 times per week). Incentive, that's why the experiment is presented with toys and not in another way that is more formal or academic. About will power, as a professional, you need to take into account before doing any assessment what is the actual level of cooperativity of the kid, and at the end of the report, if the child did not cooperate as it was planned, you need to put in the report that the results may not be completely trustworthy and that you suggest that the experiment needs to be done again in another way (similar but not exactly the same one) another day. I think that attention span may not be a problem, the experiment is really quick, and as a professional, you need to assure that your patient is paying sufficient attention, not having other people, objects, or external noise over the place that may distract the kid (if you are the therapist of the kid you know the duration of attention spans of your patient and under what circumstances this can be altered). Same with mental energy, experiments like this may be applied not at the end of the day when the kid is tired, or for example, if the kid had a difficult day at school and he is not cooperating at all, you should do the experiment another day.
Nowadays the evaluation of the theory of mind, consisting of multiple experiments to be more reliable. About auto response answers, that's why in the complete assessment we ask more questions to the kid to assure that he understands what are false beliefs, the experiment showed in the video is a little bit simplified in order for people that have no background knowledge about the theme to understand it.
Hope this is useful and clarifies doubts, I am a Language Speech Pathologist and Audiologist from Mexico City. By the way, english is my second language, I wrote the best I could and I tried to give complex ideas in the simpler way possible.
@@marianaavendano2184 Thank you. Your response is valuable and your English is well articulated
Why is this not being used for diagnosis? My three kids ALL did so. They pointed at the box where the hidden thing was.
And to give you feedback. As a 56 year old: I WANT her to look into the box instead of the basket. She wants to get her marble, so she MUST look into the box, otherwise things are not ok and won't fit together. Things have to be correct! -
- it is not that kids cannot look through the story. But the story is wrong and has to be corrected.
It is like a huge urge to justice, I cannot overcome.
I saw a talk where it said 20% of the children said Sally would look in her basket. Why do they never get mentioned? Some autistics are very intelligent. Even as children.
Was the cloth put back and covered the basket again after the marble was stolen by the second girl during the original exam? Because one of the thing about autistic people is that their thinking style is different. It may not due to that they didn't know the first girl would not know the marble was stolen, but because they thought, "if the basket is not properly covered, then the first girl would see it through immediately. That's why she would go to the second girl's box to look for it." When trying to understand people's mental process, you need to not only do experiment, but also interview them and ask them about what they are thinking. This very old experiment's design failed to understand that there's a possible explain of this kind of exprient result. That's why, when it comes to the clinical aspects of psychology, especially autism, it is always better the researcher is also having this kind of condition themselves, because it is hard for regular researchers who have no experience to understand. The most recent inspiring theories in autism are mostly from autistic researchers. Another good example is some of the most effective evidence-based psychotherapies in the recent 50 years were invented by psychologists who have mental disorders such as personality disorders. We need more diverse psychologists, neurodivergent, with disabilities, queers and trans, racial minorities...
I propose that the banana analogy is caused by the infant picking up the emotion of humour and fun that the mother communicated in her action and the object was the medium not the message.
How did the father know the son was pointing when there was no one in the room when he (the father) was there to see him point?
Clever idea - that experiment.
1 maybe the child thought the playdoll girl who stole the item would tell the other playdoll girl the truth, and thereby the okay doll girl would look in the correct spot.
2. Maybe the boy is frustrated that other people can’t figure out why he’s pointing.
lol
That's funny. I used to take everything in a literal sense as a child and got made fun of for it. I couldn't tell lies but often didn't get jokes were jokes either. I get it now though :) But sometimes I can't help but be honest.
Notice that Sally is blonde and Ann is dark haired, Ann is stealing from Sally's basket...and she says "naughty Ann"...yep these racist stereotypes persist...truly unconscious bias... pathetic 🥴
I didn't even think about that. You did because you're racist.
Lol don't take that that far..
You're not supposed to say naughty Ann at all anyway