A real blast from the past! What can I say... firstly, you guys did the story proud and it is very accurate overall in both tone and details. I can add a few additional insights to the story, and the crux of it is as you perfectly alluded to -- this process of Trumpeter basically acting like it was a real deal, or a real Paper Panzer, was always going to alter the knowledge base and create ripple effects over time. Thankfully, most insiders know this is a fake tank. I literally made it for fun, nothing more, and a few posts on Missing Links back in the day was all it ever was, until someone poked me and said "hey have you seen this!?" (meaning the display model at one of the international hobby shows for future releases from Trumpeter/Hobby Boss.) Regarding Trumpeter, I knew the US importer (I was working in the hobby industry by then) and my very legitimate threat of a copyright strike, if I can use today's terms, for the blockage of import into the US is what shook it all loose. After a few more polite back and forth, Trumpeter put my name on the instructions crediting the design to me (I think the 1/72 kit has it as well). Although credit may not appear on the box art IIRC. There were indeed a couple 1/72 resin kit spin offs produced, all long gone, but I will say ModelCollect is very stand up and the owner is fantastic. He personally reached out to me to use the design in their Panzer What-if series of kits and it's fully authorized on their part. WoT hasn't reached out, nor have they ever hinted to introduce it (my guess is they are well aware and probably decided against it), and stick to actual prototype and real paper panzer designs, or their own creations and content. And I have the original model still, (you're right, I teased it in 2020) that it will make a comeback and I do have something special planned. I'll chat about in the next live stream on my channel and link this video. Fantastic work and credit to you guys for being honest to the story and helping maintain historical integrity moving forward. Cheers!
Thank you so much for the kind words! It is quite the story, something more interesting in the tank and modelling community. It is great to hear that you made an agreement with the modelling companies, this fact I didn't know and I'll make sure to update the article. Cheers! -Pavel Alexe, article author
Excellent video! I enjoy learning about where the fake stuff comes from. By the way, the L/66 jagdtiger concept you showed in the video is itself likely a fantasy too. Despite the seemingly official drawings done by Hillary Louis Doyle, there are no original drawings of that, or any drawings at all originating from the "pre-internet" era. Just a written concept of that gun on the vehicle...
Tiger-Jäger mit 12,8cm L/66 is Rheinmetall-Borsig drawing number Hln-E-150. It is reproduced in CIOS Report XXIX-22 and in Hilary Doyle's drawings. You should do more digging before accusing him of forgery.
@@Hunter12396 I never accused him of forgery. I just said those drawings are an interpretation of something written but that was never fully designed during the war. And as I said, I'm willing to be proven otherwise. That's why I posted the comment. If you could email me that original document that would be excellent!
Knowing the size of the "short" 12,8cm KwK L/55, how little free space it leaves for the crew, ammo and the fire control system/equippment in the Jagdtiger (huge)casemate.. - Knowing how potent was 8,8cm PaK L/71 and still huge when it comes to recoil management, breach size and overall gun balance (for any stabilizing). As it could penetrate any Soviet tank while still being: easier to operate, less to carry, less to control when fires, cheaper and faster to manufacure, easier to fit, and less struggle to supply with ammo - which had not that much less penertation capabilities than 12,8cm L/55 (which meant to use 8,8cm APCBC-HE as a AP shell core) However much better effective range and carried way more energy overall. For penetragion: 30° angled 230mm pen. at 0,5km- for 12,8cm L/55 and 30° angled 200mm of pen. at 0,5km for 8,8cm L/71 Conclusion: E-100 would not be able to use 12,8cm L/55 more effective way than the Jagdtiger. Let alone absurdly long L/66. Notihing more than the gun would fit indide its turret. Schmalturm turrets never carried 6,5t cannons... The tank would get a fire rate as slow as 2 rds/min which was the main drawback of 122mm of the IS-2/IS-3 tanks. If it was to withstand multiple hits of 122mm shells like Jagdtiger or Elefant it would be even heavier than already insane 70t of these two.
Great article. I have been watching with much interest for quite some time how the "paper Tiger" and "what if" trends in German armor modeling took on a life of their own. I somehow never picked up on this particular Trumpeter story before. Very interesting.
Great video guys..I’m old enuff to have been on missing-lynx so long ago and remember most of these issues.this is one of a few what if’s that gave birth to PAPER PANZER mania decades ago.lol and as with most things the passage of time has twisted the truth or totally rewrote it. Nice to see credit given where it’s “long”over due.
Can you guys solve the myth that E 100 had 4 planned turret Turret 1 maus turret turret 2 krupp turret aka the turret that world of tanks uses turret 3 henschel turret turret 4 somewhat anti aircraft turret i think only maus and krupp turret were ever produced the other two are fake i guess.
Off the top of my head the Maus turret was the initial design back when it was called the Tiger Maus and used torsion bar suspension. The Krupp turret was the final turret design and the only one the E-100 could really use as the Maus turret was far too heavy. It was effectively a Maus II turret with much thinner sides to reduce the weight. The "Henschel" turret is the one this video is about And im pretty sure the AA turret is fake too
Considering that the E series was planned to make it easier to manufacture german tanks standardizing its parts, this turret makes sense in my opinion, it is very similar to E 50 turret and the possible turret that the E 75 was planned to receive.
There's a person or artist in deviant art, I think, who made a 3D model of another version of Rinaldi's Schmalturm-Tiger 2 Heinschel hybrid turret, which in my opinion looks visually more appealing than Rinaldi's. Looks more like a tiger 2 turret built for E100, making it feel like its even more related to The King Tiger. Their version carries a 15cm gun and the front is angled similar to the Maus 2 Turm. They simply Call it E-100 Schmalturm 150 mm KwK 46/L38.
Excellent stuff. It's a perfect example of how history always becomes deformed. Often even unintentionally. About the copyright question I am not very concerned though. Now even an educated guess can be copyrighted? But what about those flying saucers, eh? Of which only one rediculously bad retouched "original" picture exists.
Yr late but I am disagree with calling the maus turret realistic for the hull. As it would've been far too heavy for it. A porsche like hull similar to the maus was suggested but not the 188t beasts immense turret.
"Henschel made the turret?" "Who else?" Well, if the turret is based on Tiger II turrets with Saukopfblende, isn't Henschel the Inventor of this fake tank? Besides only Henschel made Tiger II turrets.
A question about the JT with the L66 - did the extending of the L66 need to happen for transport only or for combat theoretically? I am confused by the wording.
The gun is supposed to be brought back to shorten the vehicle for transport. An aside is that this L/66 concept for the Jagdtiger is that (despite it having seemingly official designs drawn by HLD), there is no actual drawings of this concept existing "pre-internet".
@@Panzermeister36 Yah, I'm not certain of its providence either although Jentz & Doyle did outstanding research work. It might have been a blip in a written document they had access to? I simply used the side view drawing to master up the length of the barrel and turret housing to justify at minimum it would be functional, in my fictional mind lol
Stolen ideas, are common, but they made it, they profit by it, am not defending them, but there's a market for oddball item, example is Dragons Pz iii with a iv turret, am still waiting for a Tiger 1 with a Panther turret or with the Tiger 2 gun, just saying.
isn't that just the panzer iii n, the last panzer iii? which was indeed equipped with the short 75 cm gun for infantry support purposes while the panzer iv received the long 75 cm gun for anti-tank purposes.
Realistically, you could never mount a panther turret to a Tiger. Ring diameter is too different. Panther is 1650mm wide, Tiger I is 2100mm wide. Tiger II is oddly in-between, at 1850mm
@@ravenouself4181 no its a legit panzer 3 hull with like a panzer 4 g or j turret. funny enough there was a project to mount a panzer 4 turret on a modified panzer 3 hull with sloped armour to test the idea of giving the panzer 4 sloped armour. didnt work.
Panzer III Ausf.K is an actual design for a Pz III J with Pz IV G turret and gun. It was canceled and instead became the Panzerbefehlswagen III Ausf.K, which still fitted a Pz IV turret on Pz III hull but used the additional space for maps and radios. A number were actually built in the latter form.
Dragon make a 1/35 Tiger 1 Ausf.H2 7.5 KwK 42 in a modified Panther turret with rear machine gun, the Tiger 1 hull is an early model. Kit # 6683 Cheers.
The channel has made videos about the bullshit tanks that don't make sense in world of tanks as well, like the bourasque pay 2 win tank or the ebr 105 cheat light tank
The Tank encyclopedia site has been covering fake tanks for ages as well nothing new, but those articles and these videos serve as a educational way to debunk fake tanks for the less knowledgeable tank enthusiasts.
A real blast from the past! What can I say... firstly, you guys did the story proud and it is very accurate overall in both tone and details. I can add a few additional insights to the story, and the crux of it is as you perfectly alluded to -- this process of Trumpeter basically acting like it was a real deal, or a real Paper Panzer, was always going to alter the knowledge base and create ripple effects over time.
Thankfully, most insiders know this is a fake tank. I literally made it for fun, nothing more, and a few posts on Missing Links back in the day was all it ever was, until someone poked me and said "hey have you seen this!?" (meaning the display model at one of the international hobby shows for future releases from Trumpeter/Hobby Boss.)
Regarding Trumpeter, I knew the US importer (I was working in the hobby industry by then) and my very legitimate threat of a copyright strike, if I can use today's terms, for the blockage of import into the US is what shook it all loose. After a few more polite back and forth, Trumpeter put my name on the instructions crediting the design to me (I think the 1/72 kit has it as well). Although credit may not appear on the box art IIRC.
There were indeed a couple 1/72 resin kit spin offs produced, all long gone, but I will say ModelCollect is very stand up and the owner is fantastic. He personally reached out to me to use the design in their Panzer What-if series of kits and it's fully authorized on their part. WoT hasn't reached out, nor have they ever hinted to introduce it (my guess is they are well aware and probably decided against it), and stick to actual prototype and real paper panzer designs, or their own creations and content.
And I have the original model still, (you're right, I teased it in 2020) that it will make a comeback and I do have something special planned. I'll chat about in the next live stream on my channel and link this video. Fantastic work and credit to you guys for being honest to the story and helping maintain historical integrity moving forward. Cheers!
Thanks for the cool insights!
Thank you for the additional details Mike :)
@@Panzermeister36 I saw this video from your community post! Cheers 🍻
Thank you so much for the kind words! It is quite the story, something more interesting in the tank and modelling community. It is great to hear that you made an agreement with the modelling companies, this fact I didn't know and I'll make sure to update the article. Cheers!
-Pavel Alexe, article author
Your model is fantastic. It really looks like something that might have been built to replace the king tiger.
Rinaldi's Ausf.B's got style.
Wow, I can’t believe the Chinese copied it. So unexpected… in seriousness though, what turret front armor could it have had with such a design
You think this is bad, did ya hear what they did in 2020?……..😏
It says in the video, same as the Maus II turret, 200mm in the front
@@misterscaz6011 Yeah,they took contract work from Fauci..
Well the PLA copys Tanks since ancient times, or the 50s to be precisely.
Same difference
I never heard of this beeing involved in modelling for many years and enjoying Mr Rinaldis work, thanx for sharing.
Excellent video! I enjoy learning about where the fake stuff comes from.
By the way, the L/66 jagdtiger concept you showed in the video is itself likely a fantasy too. Despite the seemingly official drawings done by Hillary Louis Doyle, there are no original drawings of that, or any drawings at all originating from the "pre-internet" era. Just a written concept of that gun on the vehicle...
...Of course, if you find different answers please correct me! I have been doing research into the L/66 jagdtiger for a project recently.
@@Panzermeister36 for a project you say??? Cant wait to watch the videos of it.
@@efeyigit6766 shhhhh...it's a secret project :P
Tiger-Jäger mit 12,8cm L/66 is Rheinmetall-Borsig drawing number Hln-E-150. It is reproduced in CIOS Report XXIX-22 and in Hilary Doyle's drawings. You should do more digging before accusing him of forgery.
@@Hunter12396 I never accused him of forgery. I just said those drawings are an interpretation of something written but that was never fully designed during the war.
And as I said, I'm willing to be proven otherwise. That's why I posted the comment. If you could email me that original document that would be excellent!
Knowing the size of the "short" 12,8cm KwK L/55, how little free space it leaves for the crew, ammo and the fire control system/equippment in the Jagdtiger (huge)casemate..
- Knowing how potent was 8,8cm PaK L/71 and still huge when it comes to recoil management, breach size and overall gun balance (for any stabilizing). As it could penetrate any Soviet tank while still being: easier to operate, less to carry, less to control when fires, cheaper and faster to manufacure, easier to fit, and less struggle to supply with ammo - which had not that much less penertation capabilities than 12,8cm L/55 (which meant to use 8,8cm APCBC-HE as a AP shell core) However much better effective range and carried way more energy overall. For penetragion:
30° angled 230mm pen. at 0,5km- for 12,8cm L/55 and
30° angled 200mm of pen. at 0,5km for 8,8cm L/71
Conclusion:
E-100 would not be able to use 12,8cm L/55 more effective way than the Jagdtiger. Let alone absurdly long L/66. Notihing more than the gun would fit indide its turret. Schmalturm turrets never carried 6,5t cannons... The tank would get a fire rate as slow as 2 rds/min which was the main drawback of 122mm of the IS-2/IS-3 tanks.
If it was to withstand multiple hits of 122mm shells like Jagdtiger or Elefant it would be even heavier than already insane 70t of these two.
Great article. I have been watching with much interest for quite some time how the "paper Tiger" and "what if" trends in German armor modeling took on a life of their own. I somehow never picked up on this particular Trumpeter story before. Very interesting.
Great video guys..I’m old enuff to have been on missing-lynx so long ago and remember most of these issues.this is one of a few what if’s that gave birth to PAPER PANZER mania decades ago.lol and as with most things the passage of time has twisted the truth or totally rewrote it. Nice to see credit given where it’s “long”over due.
Can you guys solve the myth that E 100 had 4 planned turret
Turret 1 maus turret
turret 2 krupp turret aka the turret that world of tanks uses
turret 3 henschel turret
turret 4 somewhat anti aircraft turret
i think only maus and krupp turret were ever produced the other two are fake i guess.
There are more such fake turrets made up for the E100. Someday I'll do them
Off the top of my head the Maus turret was the initial design back when it was called the Tiger Maus and used torsion bar suspension.
The Krupp turret was the final turret design and the only one the E-100 could really use as the Maus turret was far too heavy. It was effectively a Maus II turret with much thinner sides to reduce the weight.
The "Henschel" turret is the one this video is about
And im pretty sure the AA turret is fake too
WoT turret is the most accurate one. Check Hilary Doyle's articles
check the videos on Tiger-Maus, and E-100
I have that model kit, such a handsome tank.
I have built one myself in 1/35. Thanks to Rinaldi for the design.
Considering that the E series was planned to make it easier to manufacture german tanks standardizing its parts, this turret makes sense in my opinion, it is very similar to E 50 turret and the possible turret that the E 75 was planned to receive.
There's a person or artist in deviant art, I think, who made a 3D model of another version of Rinaldi's Schmalturm-Tiger 2 Heinschel hybrid turret, which in my opinion looks visually more appealing than Rinaldi's. Looks more like a tiger 2 turret built for E100, making it feel like its even more related to The King Tiger. Their version carries a 15cm gun and the front is angled similar to the Maus 2 Turm. They simply Call it E-100 Schmalturm 150 mm KwK 46/L38.
Wow I didnt even know how scummy Trumpeter was.
lets all agree to reffer to the turret as the ' Rinaldi Turm'
Excellent stuff. It's a perfect example of how history always becomes deformed. Often even unintentionally. About the copyright question I am not very concerned though. Now even an educated guess can be copyrighted? But what about those flying saucers, eh? Of which only one rediculously bad retouched "original" picture exists.
This looks interesting 😊
It looks like pointing out the dastardly actions of the chi-coms has caused the like button to disappear.
Great upload!
I hope someone makes this in sprocket!
Yr late but I am disagree with calling the maus turret realistic for the hull. As it would've been far too heavy for it. A porsche like hull similar to the maus was suggested but not the 188t beasts immense turret.
There is pics of the e100s 15 cm muzzle break online . Why not use that gun ??
"Henschel made the turret?"
"Who else?"
Well, if the turret is based on Tiger II turrets with Saukopfblende, isn't Henschel the Inventor of this fake tank?
Besides only Henschel made Tiger II turrets.
Krupp was the only designer and producer of Tiger turrets. Henschell designed the hull.
@@TanksEncyclopediaYT Of course. I was joking.
No good joke mixing it.
I'm sometimes getting annoyed with Henschel did this and did that.
One can not forget about the turret most known of all made for the King Tiger. Behold for the might of "The Porsche Turret!"
A question about the JT with the L66 - did the extending of the L66 need to happen for transport only or for combat theoretically? I am confused by the wording.
The gun is supposed to be brought back to shorten the vehicle for transport.
An aside is that this L/66 concept for the Jagdtiger is that (despite it having seemingly official designs drawn by HLD), there is no actual drawings of this concept existing "pre-internet".
@@Panzermeister36 Yah, I'm not certain of its providence either although Jentz & Doyle did outstanding research work. It might have been a blip in a written document they had access to? I simply used the side view drawing to master up the length of the barrel and turret housing to justify at minimum it would be functional, in my fictional mind lol
@@Panzermeister36 I see. What about the shorter but still gigantic L61?
@@rs.p I think the concept of the L/66 is based in reality but any actual drawings of what it may have looked like are simply modern guesses.
@@Panzermeister36 Time for the Evan Jagdtiger version ;)
My favourite tank..
It looks cool tho
Let me be the first to say the sountrack of this video is 👨🍳👌
Oh, hi mark.
Stolen ideas, are common, but they made it, they profit by it, am not defending them, but there's a market for oddball item, example is Dragons Pz iii with a iv turret, am still waiting for a Tiger 1 with a Panther turret or with the Tiger 2 gun, just saying.
isn't that just the panzer iii n, the last panzer iii? which was indeed equipped with the short 75 cm gun for infantry support purposes while the panzer iv received the long 75 cm gun for anti-tank purposes.
Realistically, you could never mount a panther turret to a Tiger. Ring diameter is too different. Panther is 1650mm wide, Tiger I is 2100mm wide. Tiger II is oddly in-between, at 1850mm
@@ravenouself4181 no its a legit panzer 3 hull with like a panzer 4 g or j turret.
funny enough there was a project to mount a panzer 4 turret on a modified panzer 3 hull with sloped armour to test the idea of giving the panzer 4 sloped armour.
didnt work.
Panzer III Ausf.K is an actual design for a Pz III J with Pz IV G turret and gun. It was canceled and instead became the Panzerbefehlswagen III Ausf.K, which still fitted a Pz IV turret on Pz III hull but used the additional space for maps and radios. A number were actually built in the latter form.
Dragon make a 1/35 Tiger 1 Ausf.H2 7.5 KwK 42 in a modified Panther turret with rear machine gun, the Tiger 1 hull is an early model. Kit # 6683 Cheers.
>ChiComs copy original idea
>original creator not credited nor compensated
>creator is surprised
LOL
I am curious when will this Fake E100 appear in WOT!?
Now you're talking about models of fake tanks?
We have been doing that for like 6 years
The channel has made videos about the bullshit tanks that don't make sense in world of tanks as well, like the bourasque pay 2 win tank or the ebr 105 cheat light tank
The Tank encyclopedia site has been covering fake tanks for ages as well nothing new, but those articles and these videos serve as a educational way to debunk fake tanks for the less knowledgeable tank enthusiasts.
I love the this Turret Design ❤😍, looks so damn sexy Hrrr ^*^ ❤