It was brought to my attention that I messed up at 13:00 I did the math using Regular Getup framedata and not Tech in Place. Regular Getup is 30 total frames but TIP is only 26 frames My personal reaction time is around 200ms which is how I can get 14-15F on unclepunch despite the extra input lag but that's far less leenient than I present it as in the video, my apologies. I wish I had time to rerelease the video before the trip but I can't If you can hit 16F on the unclepunch reaction test you can techchase.
I think this is also missing the monitor delay. 15f reaction time + 2f input delay + 4f monitor display delay (for me) + 7f grab = 28f, which is greater than the 26f TIP animation, and because we also can't tell apart TIP from the roll animations on frame 1, the total time to reaction grab is more like 30+ frames I think. So either I'm not understanding something here or you need better reaction times, or a faster monitor. Another factor is how fast the characters can counter the grab. Spacies can frame 1 shine theoretically, most can jab frame 2-3, or they can spotdodge frame 3, or roll away.
@@PipsqueakSSBM melee offline crt is closer to 3.5 rather than 2f. Unclepunchs reaction test is also a much simpler reaction than a multiple choice reaction tests which RTC is. Still a great vid but I think sadly you severely downplay the difficulty of techchasin( with grab) because of this!
@@l3ff3n Yea that's a fair point, I really had the wrong idea about the input lag then. I wonder where I got the idea from. The part about complex reactions is difficult because I haven't found studies that show how it scales with increasing difficulty in an intuitive way, I acknowledge that it's there and definitely harder but if it was significant my success-rate should be a lot lower than it is, especially given that im hitting 15F on unclepunch which doesn't leave too much leeway for my reactions to get hindered before my successrate goes to shit I agree I underplayed it overall especially when I saw my math was wrong, incredibly sad I can't address it before im back home again in a month ugh
I love RTC, it's easily one of my favorite aspects of Melee's engine. Feels so rewarding to be able to cover every escape option your opponent has, even if it is difficult to execute. Great video!
These old games almost luck theirselves into supremely perfect and artful mechanics. Halo 1 and 2 were the same. Perfect. Non melee smash almost isnt smash imo
for everybody in the comments talking about tech in place being borderline (it is), here's a little tip: jump cancel grabbing frame perfectly actually takes 8 frames instead of 7, since you have to spend 1 frame in jump squat before you can grab. so be sure that when you're grabbing tech in place you don't jc grab! if you try to jc grab tech in place it's actually like not possible
Called me out so hard in the first 3 minutes, damn pip Amazing video so far though, I can tell I'm gonna try way harder to get this science into my play
Timing is beyond perfect, I had just decided I needed to learn this to get to the next level. As someone who consumes educational media for my other skills and find most SSBM content lacking, this one of the best guides on SSBM in general. Provides great context, a framework for practice, personal experience to help set expectations. Thanks! Seriously 10/10.
I know you're probably just putting footage of you tech-chasing as background, and obviously you may not being purely tech-chasing every single time, but I found it hilarious that at 6:18 when I decided to consciously pay attention to you reaction tech-chase that Falco, trying to see what you saw animation-wise to react that fast after the stomp-jab reset, I see you literally read the roll out to knee him LOL I was like, DAMN pip says it's humanly possible for pretty much everyone to react, then I saw this at first and was like, "yeah that's too fast for me", but when I went frame by frame, I saw that you started the jump for the knee a frame before the Falco even started to roll. Made me feel a little better realizing it was a read lol
Oh that's intentional! I grabbed a bunch of clips from the Falcon Cookbook there to show what non-techchasing looks like! Ideally i'd find clips of them dropping the punish but I thought I should represent what successful guessing looks like ^^ I can see how my intent wouldn't be obvious, i'll be clearer next time!
pretty sure this video is going to ascend my punish (in the fox ditto) from "pretty great" to "borderline top 100 skill level" so thanks pip i can finally abuse my 12 frame zoomer reactions in a much more consistent way 🙂
As a peach player, it's become a bread and butter option to literally roll the dice on a tech roll read. At low percents when you get a grab, most of your followups havent been opened up and you arent fast enough to cover every option on reaction. So if i get a grab on fox and upthrow at 7%, whatever happens next is always a hard read. It's frustrating but if you can land those, you'll usually be able to close out the whole stock
Edited and scripted very well making a 27 minute informative video super digestible!! also i have been on the fence about learning to RTC and you made good enough points that I'm going to start learning to so i guess I'll see how usfull the advice is too lol.
Quick correction, a 14 frame reaction time in uncle punch would not be a 250ms reaction time when you consider the 2 frame minimum input delay, if you're occasionally getting 14 frames you actually have a reaction time of 200ms which is very good.
great video! super concise and engaging, one of the better explanatory / instructional based melee videos, hopefully this reaches more low to mid level players
Im glad sb made the gifs for the tech animations already, its so hard to make them yourself. For the problem of distinguishing between the options, i feel like closing my eyes as the opponent hits the ground kinda helps in seeing the details. Im not consistent at it yet but it feels so much easier and less blurry
holy moly your videos are amazing! Watched your vid on s2j zain and now I’m on a shredding through all of your vids keep up the great work, very under appreciated channel for learning melee
stellar guide but I'm just gonna keep guessing randomly. At some point it stops being a 1/3 chance and I am committed to finding out when Good luck at Summit next month!
Well, if you cover tech in place with a hitbox (not grab), you automatically cover missed tech... so that's inherently a 50/50. After conditioning your opponent to never tech in place or miss tech, you start guessing which tech roll they choose, and now you have a pseudo 50/50. I would assume this is the basic order of operations for read heavy players like n0ne and mang0.
i know this sounds silly, but i would suggest quizzing yourself on a set schedule in whatever way is most beneficial to you, just to remember these %, animations, options, etc... there is so much info in this game and it doesn't all stay retained, so it's really good to build a foundation of knowledge that you think is most important and then keep reinforcing it.
Also clump together knowledge, if you get lots of little bits of information “forward tilt at x point at y percent hitting z character leads to etc.”, and clump it together into a larger concept like just “forward tilt at y percent” it can actively help. I try do that a lot, and you end up internalising a lot of minute info.
Pipsqueak im kinda surprised you didnt mention the screen shake when people missed tech. Not sure how useful it is in regard to how you tech chase though because you only really use the animation of the character and no screen movement but i think that even just focusing on that the screen shake is very noticable.
I think the reasoning to learn just to get your one grab is great, RTCing is a time investment I’m not interested in but that’s a solid point I’ve never considered and now I’m considering maybe learning it one day. Thanks!
I’m so glad you made that statement that it’s humanly possible. !!! Boring wall of text incoming !!! A couple years back I played ultimate, was shitty as hell (like, couldn’t tell the difference between a smash attack, tilt, or dash attack input) and eventually got a copy of the game and I grinded with a buddy for a while and labbed out Sheik’s combo tree, tech chasing, platform tech chasing, all that stuff. I read sports psychology books, went super in depth and I fell in love with smash, especially melee’s scene. I hadn’t played any cause gave it a try and ultimate’s buffer system means you do everything early, while melee’s system means you do everything late (until the muscle memory of frame perfect inputs sets in). I recently started playing because I saw someone doing the Sheik reaction tech chase stuff, and I was like “oh shit, ultimate doesn’t have this, I want to learn it”, and before trying I obviously got familiar with the game’s engine, and read a lot of posts, asked a lot of questions and the general consensus was that it wasn’t humanly possible, or at least you have to have some kind of godlike brain to do it which rubbed me the wrong way. Athletes, like baseball players, tennis players, anything that requires rapid reactions to set situations probably react even faster than reaction tech chasing requires, yet melee players built this mythology surrounding it. I found it frustrating as hell, like, look outside your discipline? Either way I decided to stop asking questions and try it, after about a week I realised small details like the fact you’re not necessarily reacting to the movement but specific animation frames. After about a week, my reaction tech chases were happening, but I was obviously dropping them after my 4-5th re-grab, and then I ended up just wanting to go back to ultimate to continue some theories I had about potential kill confirms (and other nerdy fighting game shit). But even then, I wasn’t prepared to declare myself some kind of reaction time god because to be honest I’m not at all some god gamer. The gist of what I’m saying is it’s nice to have something like reaction tech chasing broken down into a more healthy, hone-able, science, than this über-elite “only-for-the-gods” type attitude.
I don't even play Melee, but ended up watching the entire vid regardless. Love this kind of content! By the way, in Ultimate there are almost universal audio cues for tech in place vs. tech rolls as well. Is this not the case in Melee?
I don't personally use them but I am fairly sure there are yes. I don't feel like I know enough about audio / know anyone competent at tech-chasing that rely on audio to include it but it's probably beneficial yes
@@NobodySSBM That's interesting! From my own testing there is a massive 4 frame difference in reaction time in audio and haptic cues compared to visual. In Ultimate it means you can react to tech in place as only that option specifically triggers a voice sound fx
Really nice video, I like the cinematic work you've done with the green screening. If you ever need it I've got a modded version of melee that gets rid of the magnifying glass and the P1/P2 images that I'm happy to send you
13:50 When Spark was in Pakistan he played many Europeans because there was nobody else and I played him with my Bowser He relentlessly dthrow techchased me with Fox To this day I am in awe at the fact that he knew how to do that
Ever since gfycat went down that reddit thread hasn't been functional. Do you know of any other resources that include the same side-by-side comparisons of tech options?
The thesis statement of this video is that RTC is actually very lenient if done correctly, and the idea that it exists at the border of human reaction time is a laughably wrong bit of widespread misinformation. So it's disappointing and kind of ironic to find out that argument completely falls apart because Pip drew that conclusion thinking tech in place was a whole 4 frames slower than it actually is. Would love to see an updated version that accounts for this, because otherwise this might be the best resource on techchasing out there, bar none.
RTC's still very doable, allow me to explain since pip's probably too busy being a top player to make a follow-up vid anytime soon tech in place is a 26f option, meaning the opp can act on 27f. that said, consider this: 26f minus 7f (average grab) minus 15f (average reaction time) = 4f (latest frame you can react to, assuming 7f grab and reaction time of 15f or less) so, in other words, if your reaction time were always 15 frames, and if you were to only react with a grab coming out on frame 7, you could react to the tech in place animation as late as frame 4. HOWEVER... it'd be a frame perfect timing vs cracked spacies, so some buffer room would be nice, yes? while your reaction time can be trained to be faster, sometimes it just isn't as fast as it's able to be. luckily, wiggle room exists in a few different forms... fox's three different tech animations are fully distinguishable on frame 2, meaning if you have a reaction time of 17 frames or less, you can react with a grab and get it every time. the quicker your reaction time, the more frames you can use as wiggle room. with a reaction time of 15 frames or less, it's a pretty lenient timing, with a window of 3 frames! also, most spacies won't time their shine after the tech perfectly every time, so more leniency comes from that, too. if you aren't fighting a spacie, the timing gets even more lenient since they don't have shine. every other tech option is slower, meaning they're (generally speaking) easier to cover than a spacie's tech in place.
no matter how much i practice i can never react to tech in place in time. I can react to every other option but whenever it's tech in place i'm always too slow (and no i'm not jc grabbing). Not being able to react to tech in place is so discouraging tbh
the 250 average reaction does not include melee's frames of lag, if you run tests with the lag reduction geckocode turned on outside of slippi online you will see the 2 or 3 frame difference
I think RTC is also not really performed by some cuz its seen as "lame" as well. I've heard plenty of players say "Yeah I can do that and grind it, it's just boring."
My biggest issue with tech chasing is getting smacked away by getup attack when i try to run up and crouch. I'm guessing thats fixed by your point about being preemptively thinking about where they're going to land, and already moving in that direction. Will have to experiment with that.
Is rtc with ftilt as shiek cheese? I feel like it’s much more feasible to learn but perhaps at some point people will be able to TIP shine me. I feel like that wouldn’t be a problem for a while though..
As fox, if you're close enough to sheik when she hits the ground, couldn't you punish tech in place with shine and tech roll with grab? I think that saves enough frames that reacting is feasible
It's a maybe, extremely tight but I'll let you in on a dark secret I intentionally didn't mention that because that is not a path I want to send new techchasers down at all
Hi Pip, very useful video so much info I didn't know about the animations. What advice would you have for someone who played computers too much and is only used to the timing of missed techs? Does that make it easier to learn this stuff from scratch?
Hey pip, dunno if you're still reading comments but I have a couple questions. 1. If I practice rtc 20 minutes every day, about how long will it take me to get comfortable/a good grasp on it? 2. If I practice rtc with one character, will that skill transfer over if I play other characters? Or do I have to relearn the muscle memory since I'd be going for slightly different coverage options?
1. only one way to find out. you been practicin? 2. i think it's safe to assume the general skill probably transfers over, but yeah, you're right about having to relearn muscle memory since you'd be using entirely different moves
Is the hypothetical optimal play while being techchased while lying on the ground is to tech behind your opponent more often because there's a chance that their controller literally can't handle dashback out of crouch?
This is why I don’t crouch on missed tech, I just react to the getup attack or get hit. I’d rather just DI out and sacrifice some stage control if I miss it rather than rely on my controller. Once I get my phob it’ll be different though.
Depends on how good that 60 hz monitor is! I'd see if you can get 15-16F in the unclepunch reaction test and if you can you should be able to techchase, if you can't then it's going to be rough Also definitely compare your results in the test with doing it on CRT at ome point since that's the environment you actually want to techchase on mostly
btw if anyone else has a shit controller like me and cant dash back out of crouch, dash forward for a sec then dash back :) not perfect but also doesn't cost $300
I'm a Falco player, are there any Falco top players that use RTC in their gameplay that I can watch so I can be more aware of the situations where Falco can actually react?
I’ve taken note that when RTC with falco, it’s a little faster to react/follow your opponent with his short hop as opposed to running or wavedashing. That way when you get the tech you can short hop downair, short hop empty land shine etc The short hop when RTC covers lots of distance and relatively the same speed if not faster than his running speed.
Wait what is with the math around 13 minutes, tech in place is 26 frames right? Why'd you say 30? And in that case the 3 frame leniency is actually a frame too slow?
@@PipsqueakSSBM not to be a downer but the whole anyone can do with their 15frame reaction time kinda rides on that lmaooo. RTC only for god reactors confirmed
To answer your question, yes you're right. For fox I can tell tech in place apart on frame 2 but it varies between the cast. However I personally have around a 200 ms reaction time (which is how I can get 14-15F on the reaction test despite the extra input lag) so it's pretty leenient for me I wish I caught that
@@PipsqueakSSBM sadge. Mainly curious to hear more about the options used by slower characters like falco. Would you say falcos reaction tech chase is mostly going to end after like one or two knockdown interactions? Also, you mentioned to not just default to shine (essentially giving up on your reaction) but falco probably should shine, correct?
Melee is such a cool game on paper but Melee players make it so disgusting. This is so soulless and scummy. Yeah you CAN do it but what's even the point of playing if this is all you're doing. Love the game but the players are the worst, it's so obvious why FGC people generally avoid Melee and its players.
![Tee Grizzley - Detroit (Feat. 42 Dugg) [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/aeKfTtt0x14/mqdefault.jpg)
It was brought to my attention that I messed up at 13:00
I did the math using Regular Getup framedata and not Tech in Place.
Regular Getup is 30 total frames but TIP is only 26 frames
My personal reaction time is around 200ms which is how I can get 14-15F on unclepunch despite the extra input lag but that's far less leenient than I present it as in the video, my apologies.
I wish I had time to rerelease the video before the trip but I can't
If you can hit 16F on the unclepunch reaction test you can techchase.
I think this is also missing the monitor delay. 15f reaction time + 2f input delay + 4f monitor display delay (for me) + 7f grab = 28f, which is greater than the 26f TIP animation, and because we also can't tell apart TIP from the roll animations on frame 1, the total time to reaction grab is more like 30+ frames I think. So either I'm not understanding something here or you need better reaction times, or a faster monitor.
Another factor is how fast the characters can counter the grab. Spacies can frame 1 shine theoretically, most can jab frame 2-3, or they can spotdodge frame 3, or roll away.
@@naru235 FOUR FRAMES WHAT KINDA SHITTY YE YE ASS MONITOR ARE YOU ON LMAOOOO
also yes it is, check in unclepunch if you can hit 16F and if you cant you need a better setup, this is assuming CRT which is around 2F total delay
@@PipsqueakSSBM melee offline crt is closer to 3.5 rather than 2f. Unclepunchs reaction test is also a much simpler reaction than a multiple choice reaction tests which RTC is.
Still a great vid but I think sadly you severely downplay the difficulty of techchasin( with grab) because of this!
@@l3ff3n Yea that's a fair point, I really had the wrong idea about the input lag then. I wonder where I got the idea from.
The part about complex reactions is difficult because I haven't found studies that show how it scales with increasing difficulty in an intuitive way, I acknowledge that it's there and definitely harder but if it was significant my success-rate should be a lot lower than it is, especially given that im hitting 15F on unclepunch which doesn't leave too much leeway for my reactions to get hindered before my successrate goes to shit
I agree I underplayed it overall especially when I saw my math was wrong, incredibly sad I can't address it before im back home again in a month ugh
I love RTC, it's easily one of my favorite aspects of Melee's engine. Feels so rewarding to be able to cover every escape option your opponent has, even if it is difficult to execute. Great video!
These old games almost luck theirselves into supremely perfect and artful mechanics.
Halo 1 and 2 were the same. Perfect.
Non melee smash almost isnt smash imo
for everybody in the comments talking about tech in place being borderline (it is), here's a little tip:
jump cancel grabbing frame perfectly actually takes 8 frames instead of 7, since you have to spend 1 frame in jump squat before you can grab. so be sure that when you're grabbing tech in place you don't jc grab! if you try to jc grab tech in place it's actually like not possible
So just raw grab?
@@PebelWasTaken yup!
Called me out so hard in the first 3 minutes, damn pip
Amazing video so far though, I can tell I'm gonna try way harder to get this science into my play
I TOLD YOU SO
Timing is beyond perfect, I had just decided I needed to learn this to get to the next level. As someone who consumes educational media for my other skills and find most SSBM content lacking, this one of the best guides on SSBM in general. Provides great context, a framework for practice, personal experience to help set expectations.
Thanks! Seriously 10/10.
7:40, i stopped listening to watch that sequence multiple times, that was insane... now i gotta rewind again and hear what your saying
this is the best video on learning reaction tech chasing for me
As a person who
1) Struggles with RTC
2) Struggles to edit content in a timely or aggressive fashion
I love this video SO MUCH.
I was listening to this video and nodding intently the whole time, but at 15:06 when you said that Shiek sucks as a character? That's when I liked it.
I know you're probably just putting footage of you tech-chasing as background, and obviously you may not being purely tech-chasing every single time, but I found it hilarious that at 6:18 when I decided to consciously pay attention to you reaction tech-chase that Falco, trying to see what you saw animation-wise to react that fast after the stomp-jab reset, I see you literally read the roll out to knee him LOL
I was like, DAMN pip says it's humanly possible for pretty much everyone to react, then I saw this at first and was like, "yeah that's too fast for me", but when I went frame by frame, I saw that you started the jump for the knee a frame before the Falco even started to roll. Made me feel a little better realizing it was a read lol
Oh that's intentional! I grabbed a bunch of clips from the Falcon Cookbook there to show what non-techchasing looks like! Ideally i'd find clips of them dropping the punish but I thought I should represent what successful guessing looks like ^^
I can see how my intent wouldn't be obvious, i'll be clearer next time!
hey 2 anyone reading gfycat seemingly went down this month and most of the gifs on the reddit thread r invalid does anyone have the gifs anywhere else
pretty sure this video is going to ascend my punish (in the fox ditto) from "pretty great" to "borderline top 100 skill level" so thanks pip i can finally abuse my 12 frame zoomer reactions in a much more consistent way 🙂
This might be the most important punish game video in melee because there's a lot of implications and concepts that go beyond just RTC
The King's Field 4 soundtrack literally cannot be topped
This is the best ssbm punish game video on youtube
nice vid! really well made, great that you're showing so much applicable footage and that its not just filler background video while you talk
agreed
Liked this purely because I got to hear pipsqueak say arsed
I noticed too if I walk a bit with falcon after an u-throw/d-throw, I’m able to react to techs away/in better.
Pipsqueak 30 minute video HYPE
The "I have no idea how to tech chas dk don't ask" part killed me LOL
Finally up, time to get the last tips to fully implement it.
Ty, i was waiting for this video for a long time.
As a peach player, it's become a bread and butter option to literally roll the dice on a tech roll read. At low percents when you get a grab, most of your followups havent been opened up and you arent fast enough to cover every option on reaction. So if i get a grab on fox and upthrow at 7%, whatever happens next is always a hard read. It's frustrating but if you can land those, you'll usually be able to close out the whole stock
Masterpiece
It came to me naturally. I can fully react to tech chases with no trouble. Its very consistent, i love tech chasing.
Edited and scripted very well making a 27 minute informative video super digestible!!
also i have been on the fence about learning to RTC and you made good enough points that I'm going to start learning to so i guess I'll see how usfull the advice is too lol.
Quick correction, a 14 frame reaction time in uncle punch would not be a 250ms reaction time when you consider the 2 frame minimum input delay, if you're occasionally getting 14 frames you actually have a reaction time of 200ms which is very good.
perfect timing :) thanks!
great video! super concise and engaging, one of the better explanatory / instructional based melee videos, hopefully this reaches more low to mid level players
Sick video pip! Love to see it bestie!
This might be the motivation I finally need to learn to RTC
Im glad sb made the gifs for the tech animations already, its so hard to make them yourself.
For the problem of distinguishing between the options, i feel like closing my eyes as the opponent hits the ground kinda helps in seeing the details. Im not consistent at it yet but it feels so much easier and less blurry
holy moly your videos are amazing! Watched your vid on s2j zain and now I’m on a shredding through all of your vids keep up the great work, very under appreciated channel for learning melee
the clip at 21:50 had me laughing out loud, i 1000% wasn't expecting that
Absolute banger of a video, thanks for the summary. Subscribed!
Thank you so much for this video, it helped so much!
this video is somthing else, thank you pip
Great Video Pipsqueak
stellar guide but I'm just gonna keep guessing randomly. At some point it stops being a 1/3 chance and I am committed to finding out when
Good luck at Summit next month!
Well, if you cover tech in place with a hitbox (not grab), you automatically cover missed tech... so that's inherently a 50/50. After conditioning your opponent to never tech in place or miss tech, you start guessing which tech roll they choose, and now you have a pseudo 50/50. I would assume this is the basic order of operations for read heavy players like n0ne and mang0.
Incredible video!
i know this sounds silly, but i would suggest quizzing yourself on a set schedule in whatever way is most beneficial to you, just to remember these %, animations, options, etc... there is so much info in this game and it doesn't all stay retained, so it's really good to build a foundation of knowledge that you think is most important and then keep reinforcing it.
Also clump together knowledge, if you get lots of little bits of information “forward tilt at x point at y percent hitting z character leads to etc.”, and clump it together into a larger concept like just “forward tilt at y percent” it can actively help. I try do that a lot, and you end up internalising a lot of minute info.
Pipsqueak im kinda surprised you didnt mention the screen shake when people missed tech. Not sure how useful it is in regard to how you tech chase though because you only really use the animation of the character and no screen movement but i think that even just focusing on that the screen shake is very noticable.
Excellent video
Amazing vid, thanks
I think the reasoning to learn just to get your one grab is great, RTCing is a time investment I’m not interested in but that’s a solid point I’ve never considered and now I’m considering maybe learning it one day. Thanks!
12:25 2-3 frame charged upsmash would be more optimal than grab
Amazing video. Thanks so much for the help!
I’m so glad you made that statement that it’s humanly possible.
!!! Boring wall of text incoming !!!
A couple years back I played ultimate, was shitty as hell (like, couldn’t tell the difference between a smash attack, tilt, or dash attack input) and eventually got a copy of the game and I grinded with a buddy for a while and labbed out Sheik’s combo tree, tech chasing, platform tech chasing, all that stuff. I read sports psychology books, went super in depth and I fell in love with smash, especially melee’s scene. I hadn’t played any cause gave it a try and ultimate’s buffer system means you do everything early, while melee’s system means you do everything late (until the muscle memory of frame perfect inputs sets in). I recently started playing because I saw someone doing the Sheik reaction tech chase stuff, and I was like “oh shit, ultimate doesn’t have this, I want to learn it”, and before trying I obviously got familiar with the game’s engine, and read a lot of posts, asked a lot of questions and the general consensus was that it wasn’t humanly possible, or at least you have to have some kind of godlike brain to do it which rubbed me the wrong way. Athletes, like baseball players, tennis players, anything that requires rapid reactions to set situations probably react even faster than reaction tech chasing requires, yet melee players built this mythology surrounding it.
I found it frustrating as hell, like, look outside your discipline? Either way I decided to stop asking questions and try it, after about a week I realised small details like the fact you’re not necessarily reacting to the movement but specific animation frames. After about a week, my reaction tech chases were happening, but I was obviously dropping them after my 4-5th re-grab, and then I ended up just wanting to go back to ultimate to continue some theories I had about potential kill confirms (and other nerdy fighting game shit). But even then, I wasn’t prepared to declare myself some kind of reaction time god because to be honest I’m not at all some god gamer.
The gist of what I’m saying is it’s nice to have something like reaction tech chasing broken down into a more healthy, hone-able, science, than this über-elite “only-for-the-gods” type attitude.
I don't even play Melee, but ended up watching the entire vid regardless. Love this kind of content!
By the way, in Ultimate there are almost universal audio cues for tech in place vs. tech rolls as well. Is this not the case in Melee?
I don't personally use them but I am fairly sure there are yes. I don't feel like I know enough about audio / know anyone competent at tech-chasing that rely on audio to include it but it's probably beneficial yes
I use the audio cue for missed tech, it's very distinct from the tech options
@@NobodySSBM That's interesting! From my own testing there is a massive 4 frame difference in reaction time in audio and haptic cues compared to visual. In Ultimate it means you can react to tech in place as only that option specifically triggers a voice sound fx
wait i've done the first reaction tech chasing really well
Really nice video, I like the cinematic work you've done with the green screening. If you ever need it I've got a modded version of melee that gets rid of the magnifying glass and the P1/P2 images that I'm happy to send you
Great video! Liking, commenting, and subscribing for the algorithm!!
i need that rtc chrome dome captain falcon sloppy toppy fr fr
13:50 When Spark was in Pakistan he played many Europeans because there was nobody else and I played him with my Bowser
He relentlessly dthrow techchased me with Fox
To this day I am in awe at the fact that he knew how to do that
amazing video
Ever since gfycat went down that reddit thread hasn't been functional. Do you know of any other resources that include the same side-by-side comparisons of tech options?
The thesis statement of this video is that RTC is actually very lenient if done correctly, and the idea that it exists at the border of human reaction time is a laughably wrong bit of widespread misinformation.
So it's disappointing and kind of ironic to find out that argument completely falls apart because Pip drew that conclusion thinking tech in place was a whole 4 frames slower than it actually is.
Would love to see an updated version that accounts for this, because otherwise this might be the best resource on techchasing out there, bar none.
RTC's still very doable, allow me to explain since pip's probably too busy being a top player to make a follow-up vid anytime soon
tech in place is a 26f option, meaning the opp can act on 27f. that said, consider this:
26f minus 7f (average grab) minus 15f (average reaction time) = 4f (latest frame you can react to, assuming 7f grab and reaction time of 15f or less)
so, in other words, if your reaction time were always 15 frames, and if you were to only react with a grab coming out on frame 7, you could react to the tech in place animation as late as frame 4.
HOWEVER... it'd be a frame perfect timing vs cracked spacies, so some buffer room would be nice, yes? while your reaction time can be trained to be faster, sometimes it just isn't as fast as it's able to be. luckily, wiggle room exists in a few different forms...
fox's three different tech animations are fully distinguishable on frame 2, meaning if you have a reaction time of 17 frames or less, you can react with a grab and get it every time. the quicker your reaction time, the more frames you can use as wiggle room. with a reaction time of 15 frames or less, it's a pretty lenient timing, with a window of 3 frames!
also, most spacies won't time their shine after the tech perfectly every time, so more leniency comes from that, too. if you aren't fighting a spacie, the timing gets even more lenient since they don't have shine.
every other tech option is slower, meaning they're (generally speaking) easier to cover than a spacie's tech in place.
Can Pikachu reaction tech chase with grabs?
no matter how much i practice i can never react to tech in place in time. I can react to every other option but whenever it's tech in place i'm always too slow (and no i'm not jc grabbing). Not being able to react to tech in place is so discouraging tbh
the 250 average reaction does not include melee's frames of lag, if you run tests with the lag reduction geckocode turned on outside of slippi online you will see the 2 or 3 frame difference
no, ever since a recent dolphin patch the delay is applied in offline testing too, not just while online on slippi.
1:28 I mean you have to train to get a reaction time
I think RTC is also not really performed by some cuz its seen as "lame" as well. I've heard plenty of players say "Yeah I can do that and grind it, it's just boring."
My biggest issue with tech chasing is getting smacked away by getup attack when i try to run up and crouch. I'm guessing thats fixed by your point about being preemptively thinking about where they're going to land, and already moving in that direction. Will have to experiment with that.
Is rtc with ftilt as shiek cheese? I feel like it’s much more feasible to learn but perhaps at some point people will be able to TIP shine me. I feel like that wouldn’t be a problem for a while though..
As fox, if you're close enough to sheik when she hits the ground, couldn't you punish tech in place with shine and tech roll with grab? I think that saves enough frames that reacting is feasible
It's a maybe, extremely tight but I'll let you in on a dark secret
I intentionally didn't mention that because that is not a path I want to send new techchasers down at all
Can Puff RTC besides plats? I noticed u didn't mention her but it might've been because she obviously cannot or something
comment for the algo
Hi Pip, very useful video so much info I didn't know about the animations.
What advice would you have for someone who played computers too much and is only used to the timing of missed techs? Does that make it easier to learn this stuff from scratch?
is there anywhere else to find the gifs of the tech options? gfycat is taken down :(
Great video! The reddit thread mentioned at 13:32 is missing from the description, can you add that one?
I KNEW I was forgetting something. Will do!
Done :Thumbsup_emote:
Hey pip, dunno if you're still reading comments but I have a couple questions.
1. If I practice rtc 20 minutes every day, about how long will it take me to get comfortable/a good grasp on it?
2. If I practice rtc with one character, will that skill transfer over if I play other characters? Or do I have to relearn the muscle memory since I'd be going for slightly different coverage options?
1. only one way to find out. you been practicin?
2. i think it's safe to assume the general skill probably transfers over, but yeah, you're right about having to relearn muscle memory since you'd be using entirely different moves
Is the hypothetical optimal play while being techchased while lying on the ground is to tech behind your opponent more often because there's a chance that their controller literally can't handle dashback out of crouch?
Yes. Btw, its a skill check and a controller check, Dbooc is not all controller
@@LukeTextbook True, I forgot it's literally a 1 frame input with deadzones
This is why I don’t crouch on missed tech, I just react to the getup attack or get hit. I’d rather just DI out and sacrifice some stage control if I miss it rather than rely on my controller. Once I get my phob it’ll be different though.
I’m having trouble doing instant up airs. Any advice?? Advice welcomed from anyone as well
With falcon
20:17 wtf is this clip LMAO
What buttons do you use on the boxx for you JC upsmash? for the life in me i cant get it consistently
pipsqueak i have a 60hz monitor, should i still try to grind techchasing on UP?
Depends on how good that 60 hz monitor is! I'd see if you can get 15-16F in the unclepunch reaction test and if you can you should be able to techchase, if you can't then it's going to be rough
Also definitely compare your results in the test with doing it on CRT at ome point since that's the environment you actually want to techchase on mostly
comment for algorithm
your vids r so fuckin poggers :):):)
btw if anyone else has a shit controller like me and cant dash back out of crouch, dash forward for a sec then dash back :) not perfect but also doesn't cost $300
I'm a Falco player, are there any Falco top players that use RTC in their gameplay that I can watch so I can be more aware of the situations where Falco can actually react?
I’ve taken note that when RTC with falco, it’s a little faster to react/follow your opponent with his short hop as opposed to running or wavedashing. That way when you get the tech you can short hop downair, short hop empty land shine etc
The short hop when RTC covers lots of distance and relatively the same speed if not faster than his running speed.
Wait what is with the math around 13 minutes, tech in place is 26 frames right? Why'd you say 30? And in that case the 3 frame leniency is actually a frame too slow?
FUCK I WAS LOOKING AT REGULAR GETUP FOR THAT PART NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
@@PipsqueakSSBM Is there a very easy way to edit the video while being uploaded?
@@PipsqueakSSBM not to be a downer but the whole anyone can do with their 15frame reaction time kinda rides on that lmaooo. RTC only for god reactors confirmed
@@harpot678 nope LMAO
I'd have to reupload the entire thing which im not doing
I can mention it in the description T_T
To answer your question, yes you're right.
For fox I can tell tech in place apart on frame 2 but it varies between the cast. However I personally have around a 200 ms reaction time (which is how I can get 14-15F on the reaction test despite the extra input lag) so it's pretty leenient for me
I wish I caught that
What do you think about the cc / ps option select? Isn't it better than just crouching?
No because you're still reacting lol. If you don't react then you won't catch rolls and will just shield instead, negating the perk of crouch entirely
@@PipsqueakSSBM yeah alright, I'm in the react gang ahaha so I was a bit confused
But you also react to the rolls when crouching
With the cc ps os you do the same reaction to the rolls, it just gives you a back up plan if you miss the PS
Aka just crouching the ga like you normally do it yourself
Do you do lessons 🧐
No and I don't currently plan on it
Doing public videos like these feels like a far better use of time
@@PipsqueakSSBM sadge. Mainly curious to hear more about the options used by slower characters like falco. Would you say falcos reaction tech chase is mostly going to end after like one or two knockdown interactions? Also, you mentioned to not just default to shine (essentially giving up on your reaction) but falco probably should shine, correct?
@@johntitor4606 yes that's a bias from being a fox main, falco should shine in the absolute majority of cases, good catch 👍
The other question I can't answer roght now sorry
@@PipsqueakSSBM no worries! Thanks for the replies!
lol mint
Isnt this just prediction tech chasing?
No.
Too bad rtc is extremely lame
Melee is such a cool game on paper but Melee players make it so disgusting. This is so soulless and scummy. Yeah you CAN do it but what's even the point of playing if this is all you're doing. Love the game but the players are the worst, it's so obvious why FGC people generally avoid Melee and its players.