The best argument for Aux-fed Subs is that you can eliminate low frequency noise (primarily mechanical) noise from all mics that don't need to capture low-frequencies (such as your hi-hat mic). Basically, you only have kick drums, floor tom, and bass guitar going to the subs and nothing else.
That is true. The argument I’m making here is that that’s perfectly fine if you’re ONLY mixing for FOH. If you’re mixer also controls aspects of livestream and/or monitor mixes, that mechanical noise still exists in those mixes since they are still sending a full-range signal. By using a matrix-fed sub on a properly tuned system (this is key), you can hear that mechanical noise at FOH and now utilize High Pass Filters and Low Shelves to reduce or remove those problem frequencies from ALL mixes affected by your mixer. I don’t have a huge problem with Aux-Fed Subs if your mixer is only responsible for FOH except that I don’t want to encourage dependency on techniques that aren’t properly applicable to all mixing scenarios. I hope that clears things up some, James. Thanks so much for watching and commenting! -Chad
I understand that you want the mix to translate to livestream, but if you have another engineer working on the live stream in a separate mix then you should be able to boost bass frequencies independent of front of house. I understand some churches are limited in this area but I have encountered using a hp filter to reduce what’s fed to the subs can also make the audio sound thin especially on guitars and vocals. I’m new to live mixing, but I’m considering using aux fed subs because I want to have the body of the different instrument without having any mud fed to the subs. I have noticed with everything routed to the subs you get a lot of unwanted lower harmonics and mechanical noise, and I don’t like cutting into the fundamental frequency of the instruments, which is usually going to be anywhere from 150 to 300 Hertz. All that being said maybe the system im working on isn’t tuned properly and the crossover is set a little to high. When I solo what’s going to the subs I’m getting a lot of mud and I have a feeling it’s affecting the overall quality of the mix, and the articulation of the low end.
@@jimmyweaver5843 This video is mostly aimed at churches and organizations that do not have multiple engineers for multiple positions. That said, I’ve decided for me to implement what I call Unified Technique, meaning that I don’t want to dramatically change my techniques for different venues, so I choose to mix without aux fed subs each time so that I don’t train myself up in what I consider to be bad technique. My life has been easier since going this direction haha. For mixers that are already set up to have aux-fed subs, I just push all the send levels to the same amount and then treat the sub master as I would a matrix. Do what works best for you but I would investigate the crossover points on your mains and subs just so you’re fully aware of what’s going on (especially if your mix also affects monitors and livestream). Thanks for watching and commenting! -Chad
@@PeejaiiOanes Right - but that HPF is not a crossover quality HPF - the slope of the curve isn't the same, as what would be used for crossover. In the old days crossover required specialized outboard gear, or special DSP in gear built into the speakers themselves, etc. A big part of that was the reality that your average (high end) live sound parametric EQ still wasn't going to provide the same kind of curve as crossover units did. Fast forward to the present - there are many places/ways for the crossover to take place. The X32, et al. have specific crossover filters available for the buss or matrix HPF that are not available, to my knowledge, on the input channels.
Hi Chad. Please don't take this as a negative, but rather jus my opinion from experience. I feel al your reasons don't make sense, since I've found it to be the opposite. Reason #1, Post-fader aux fed subs are mixed identically to crossover subs on the console. It doesn't make it easier or harder for volunteers. Your whole approach to Reason #4 is wrong. With your Aux fed example, you used the level send to the sub aux bus to increase the low end.. Thats not how it should be done and not how we mix. If you need more bottom end, you still use the eq! Or just raise the fader to increase overall level of the bass/kick. Aux fed sub busses are always post fader, for that very reason. Of course the stream mix won't reflect any changes if you mix the subs using the individual sends. (ain't nobody got time fot that). Lol We use aux fed subs to clean out the subs from any unnecessary rumble from the other channels, even those with hpf on. When your working with a large line array, 60+ channels, their low end can still add up to an audible amount. Having quick control over subs is a must have!
Thank you for the effort to try and teach us. I'm one of those church collaborators that without a professional formation try to do their best to serve God in sound mixing. Your tutorials have been extremely helpful. God bless you.
Man, when I stopped using aux fed subs a few years ago in favour of matrix fed, my whole mix improved drastically! The biggest benefit I found was that now all my buss processing, including parallel drum compression is now actually feeding the subs, instead of just straight off the channel. Absolute game changer if you're processing busses 🤘🏼
I've been mixing live acts for 14 years. This includes huge festivals too. I only benefit from aux fed subs. It works great. If you have a good digital console you can achieve almost anything. There are many tools, dynamics and options to make it sound magic.
Good video. Makes a lot of sense about a broadcast or in-ear mix when you are doing it from front of house. One thing I might add is how aux fed subs have the potential to mess with your system alignment (if it is aligned between subs and mains). This is often overlooked or is a point that is not known from a mixing standpoint, and adding too much to the subs can shift your crossover region. When working with volunteers, this can be something that may not be mentioned because of the level of complexity, but if you do have your system aligned, adding too much or too little to the subs can make system tuning pointless if a tolerance level is not given. This is another reason why feeding the main signal to the subs will avoid a lot of this.
If your PA is set up properly and as close to linear as possible (what you put you get out), you don’t “eq” via aux fed sub. You send a standardized amount (unity for single channel or -6 for stereo channels) and eq with the eq. You shouldn’t be using the sub send for color anymore than you are using the main outs for color. I do this on the cl5 I run daily as well as the x32 that gets constant use also at work. If you send channels to subs that don’t belong there, you still end up with extraneous noise in the sub region. HPF, even variable slope ons, still pass information beyond their shoulder frequency. 4 sources with a hpf set at 100, with a slope of 12 db per octave (which is the steeper slope on a cl5 channel eq), pass significant energy to subland, as all that undesirable energy sums in the board and bus send. Yes, you have a point with volunteers, but my experience shows that if you set up presets, including proper sub send settings, they will use those first. Take the time to instruct the volunteers about the why we do things and they tend to follow those instructions to a T. I have been a professional in live sound for well over a decade in professional live theatre, as well as installs at churches and schools. Without aux fed subs, I wouldn’t be able to cleanly put 20 to 30 omni lavs, on actors, as well as a full band through the same pa on my current stage, in where the subs are above the actors.
I prefer to use the mono/center fader for my subs linked to the LR fader so that the FOH volume is controlled by the LR main fader and you can just leave the mono fader at unity. Then on the channels that you have low end material you simply activate the mono send and leave it at unity. This keeps all of the low end from all of the other mics from adding together and building up in the subs. Because even with the low cut there is still low end it is just turned down many dB. So if you add all of those channels signals that have the low cut set you end up with low rumble again in the subs. As far as the "volunteers" go; just train them on their setup and have them make a video of the training so they can review it from time to time and they will also have something to show any other people that want to learn as well.
Jeffrey Crouch I’m fine with that approach so long as the mixer is only mixing for the crowd. For me, one of the main issues is the tonal differences that may occur for other mixes tied to that mixer (in-ears, broadcast, lobby, etc). Apart, from that, I’m with ya :) -Chad
@@AWTechTuesday Normally your broadcast, lobby, etc. is ran from the Matrices and you want those to be pre EQ and pre fader anyways so they will be uneffected by the HP filter being used by the mains. The IEM are normally ran from the buses so again they aren't effected by the HP on the main fader either. So your worry has no grounds. With this setup you are only effecting the FOH and as long as you have the mono fader set to unity both in the channels you want sent to subs and in the main section, and you have the master mono fader set to follow the LR then you don't have to worry about any phasing caused by unbalanced volume between subs and tops.
#1 reason for using Aux Subs/Sub Bus: dynamic control of ALL low end that you choose to bus. Being able to ramp up parts or bring down just the low end a smidge is a huge benefit for dynamic control and creating emotion in a mix context.
True enough. However, you can also do that with a matrix (assuming you are running the matrix on the console and not an external processor) :) Neither approach will translate to a stream mix or other rooms but that's not necessarily the end of the world. Interesting point! Thanks for watching and commenting! -Chad
@@AWTechTuesday create a separate stream matrix is the easiest way to do so, on some consoles you can route your LR mains to a matrix so just feed your left right to a matrix and there you go
I've been experimenting with aux-fed subs on our church's X32 (using a specific scene that has the audio routed that way, so as not to confuse other volunteers who mix). I was always pretty conscientious about keeping vocal microphones high passed as much as I could without making them sound thin, so there hasn't been a massive reduction in muddiness from using the aux-fed technique, (which was the original motivation for trying it in the first place). On the down-side, it adds to the cognitive overload to have to think about whether and how much bass aux send to use, particularly with certain mixer channels that may get reassigned per worship service. Furthermore, it's nicer to have controllability and visibility of the entire EQ curve in one place, and have the displayed EQ curve reflect what is really going on, even below 100Hz.
Interesting points. I do FOH sound for a bar & grill, so I use the M/C channel to feed my subs on an X32 console. We do not stream or send sound to any other room, so I haven't used the matrix channels for anything at this point. I've tried to tell my boss it would be good to set up a live feed online and then I would have a use for the matrix channels, and doing my mix a bit different for consistency might be needed if we ever decide to stream our shows online. At this point though, I prefer my subs on a separate send. I like the control of being able to put anything I want into the sub channel by simply hitting the mono send on the channel strip. Makes it really easy to keep things like kick, floor toms, and bass in my subs, which for most bands is all I need in the subs, which keeps the bottom end clean and concise. On occasion I will have backing tracks/keys/synths, which I will also add to the sub channel, but it's a one button press and you have control of how much you are sending to the mono channel. I use the buss sends for monitors. We have 4 monitors with 4 separate mixes, so I have plenty of buss' left for sub-grouping my vocals, guitars, drums, etc. Gives me a lot of EQ and compression options having my board set up this way.
One thing a lot of people don't realize is that subs are not there for big, booming bass, they're there to get the mains flat down to 30Hz or so. I other words, they are not a form of tone control. If you want big, booming bass you should turn up the low EQ band on that channel. I almost set up a church's new system with an AUX-fed sub but quickly realized the problems it could cause, so I bought them a regular analogue crossover. Problem avoided, no extra outputs or busses required.
The best argument for Aux-fed Subs is that you can eliminate low frequency noise (primarily mechanical) noise from all mics that don't need to capture low-frequencies (such as your hi-hat mic). Basically, you only have kick drums, floor tom, and bass guitar going to the subs and nothing else.
@@jamescarter8311 You can do that with a buss, which is easily calibrated so simply "on" sends the signal at the appropriate amount to the subs. No guesswork.
@@TheWinndizzle The same thing would happen with an Aux-fed sub. You still need high-pass/low-pass filters on the AUX that you have to set up again. Putting the necessary processing on a buss or matrix doesn't take any less time.
I feel like the last reason is more of an argument against running in ears on the foh board rather than aux fed subs. Most boards have the ability to make a mix bus for ears pre or post eq and dynamics. Generally, most of the changes I make for foh sound OK in the in ears. The real issue is when it comes to gain since you can’t exactly change the channel gain for specific mixes without double patching something. For me, as long as the aux fed subs are set to post fader and I’m not using them as a sort of eq enhancement, they are a better option. Most people using in ears don’t even know the difference as long as they can hear the source and mix volume.
I prefer sub-group fed subs personally. The send level follows the channel fader and can't be changed. Makes it just as easy to use as a matrix, although it does eat up a bus.
Well stated and you have gone a long way to convincing me to stop using aux fed subs - in my case with the Wing I use the main 2 mix for the sub. My stream mix is post fader so it is fed based on changes to the channels, but my room mix goes to the main room channels directly from the DCAs and my stream mix goes through busses where I can make minor tweaks to instruments that sound different in the room compared to the mix. In the room I dont do any bus processing - I do parallel compression on the drums in the stream mix and mild bus compression for vocals and band. Having said all of that - this set up is super flexible for me and the other experienced FoH tech, but it is not low experience volunteer friendly at all. I am going to try matrix option and see how it feels - honestly, when you get used to aux fed sub, you feel like something is missing on systems without it, but managing the amount of sub through channel EQ and overall mix definitely has its merits.
Also, specific to X32 matrix, you can send the LR to the matrix but if you use post fade on the LR and set a filter to about 100 Hz on your main LR it filters out 100 Hz and below to your subs. You can set the send to pre eq, but it is also pre fader so the LR fader no longer controls the matrix level sub As far as keeping the vocals out of your subs with the MC set up, you can turn vocals off in the MC feed and they won’t go through. If you feed your matrix with the LR send you will have to filter it to 75 or lower to keep vocals out I think your MC method is far better because as you said in your video it is about more control. Plus You can set filtering’s on the left right and MC channel to give you a more uniform mix and still keep your dynamics and EQ for the MC separate.
Dunning-Kruger effect is very real and I'm peaking so I need to hurry up and get this thing set up before I figure out what I really don't know. Chance's are you'll be getting an email from me but I don't even know what to ask yet. I do want to say thanks for these videos they are helping me figure out some things. Good explanation of the why, which is the hard part. one thing on this video I wish there was a link in the description maybe to the video on how you set up the x32 for matrix subs. Thanks again.
Charles Shirley Hey Charles! Here’s a video about setting up a matrix. Hope it gets you pointed in the right direction :) m.ruclips.net/video/Tq6bJNRQxZY/видео.html Thanks for watching and commenting! -Chad
Can you give an example of the setup for Matrix fed subs? I imagine that you're setting up a crossover etc. It would be nice to see the execution of the setup.
Hi, thanks for watching and commenting! Check out this video around the 8 minute mark. It's quick and hypothetical but will give you an idea about what I'm talking about - ruclips.net/video/pzDcHUSYB_A/видео.html -Chad
Joshua Otoaruo Hey Joshua! My first thought is to check your routing. I like I do this by using the oscillator to send a tone. Here’s a video about that - m.ruclips.net/video/TA3EFW9Fubc/видео.html Treat your sound like water flowing through pipes. Follow the path all the way and make sure that everything is working and unmuted. Hope that helps :) -Chad
So would you use the MC set up previously described on the X32 or this? I know a church that records off the output of one of the subgroups and a pre-fader post EQ scenario. The only problem is any change you make an EQ going into the sub group will be reflected and you cannot change that for a lifestream mix. Words the key for the house makes may not be the same Hugh for a broadcast or last rain mix. The only problem with recording from the house mix is your assuming that the house mix will be the same mix for broadcast. With an X 32 would it not be better to use the MC sub group mix as you described in a previous video?
Wendell Nall Hey Wendell! Thanks so much for watching and commenting. If I were mixing on a console that only controls what the crowd hears and has no bearing on in-ears or recording, then I would prefer the method of a subs aux (using the M/C). You’re absolutely correct, for the matrix method to be most effective, you have to have a decent room tuning. By removing vocals from the subs mix, I guarantee that to be true in the room but that has no effect on people watching at home with a sub (though honestly most people are probably listening with phone or laptop speakers haha). It’s not a perfect solution, but in my experience, apart from setting up a completely separate mixer for broadcast, this method gives me the most consistent results across all the mixes leaving my desk. I hope that clears things up a bit. Thanks again for watching and commenting! -Chad
I notice most of the local churches on the island I live don't use matrix mix I did setup a church and matrix was so important to me because I to live stream and radio live and media room
I have found that drive racks or cross over will not give me the clearaty I want maybe is different because im more usto big events or crowded areas with less echo but I tryed everything and I onestly hate rhe mud in between how ever I do modefy a mot of mixes with GET
What about for dj use only. i use my main outs for my tops and aux sends for my subs. Digital mixer btw... Am I good here or is it better to use just main outs
So in a house mix w an aux fed sub if a high cut filter is applied how do you induce any extra slap to a kick if those frequencies are cut? Or did i miss something?
ratboyninja The higher frequencies would still come from the main speakers. Sub frequencies are relegated to the subwoofers while mids, highs, (and sometimes also sub frequencies) would go to your mains. So, if you were to add some top end to your kick or bass, you would still hear that in either scenario. Great question! -chad
I really need help with our mix in house and live stream been working in sound a while but not a pro by no means I am use a soundcraft si impact out of Madi into iMac and Ableton live 11 to feed Loopback into OBS and then Facebook live .... please help
So for best results for both FOH and Live Stream use your main L/R to feed your Matrix and use a crossover on the Matrix to feed your tops and subs? Dont use the M/C mono for subs cause that will sound good in house but not on live stream.
When you say “matrix fed subs” I don’t understand the difference between just using the mono output for subs. It seems to do the same thing. Our board is set up to have all of the mix going through main LR with a LPF ~120hz and our mono bus feeding the subs using a HPF ~120hz. Is there a specific benefit to using a matrix to do the same thing? For reference, we have our house speakers going out of one amp into 2 passive speakers and our 2 passive subs going mono out of another amp.
Great question. It really becomes an issue when you have one mixer controlling more than just what the local crowd is hearing. If your EQ affects monitors, broadcast, or any other mix apart from the main room, you could have low frequency information that is very different in those mixes than what you are hearing in your room. For example, imagine, that you have an acoustic guitar that has a low hum from a grounding issue. If it was humming at 60hz but you were only sending the acoustic to the mains and not to the mono (in the example of your setup), you would not hear the hum in the room but it would be heard in the ears, online, etc. In the example I propose in this video, because everything has the capacity to go to the subs, you would likely hear the hum, be able to adjust your low cut accordingly, and that low cut would remove the hum from all those outputs previously mentioned. Again, excellent question. I hope that clears things up. -Chad
Your reason #1 is 100% correct. Whether volunteers are involved or not, dealing with one mix is easier than dealing with two. Don't be fooled. You may be using the same sources of audio (i.e. your input channels), but you are no doubt creating two completely separate mixes that have nothing to do with one another and then being forced to manage them separately. You aux-fed people don't seem to think this is the case, but it is. The result is two separate systems (tops and subs) firing independently of each another.
And then there's the "i have more control over my mix" people who use aux-fed. And let's not forget the "my mix sounds better on an aux" people. There's only one mix you should worry about: the main bus. If that mix-the LR mix- sounds like garbage when you fed it directly to your subs, then your mix is garbage. Creating one mix and sending it to all elements of your speaker system keeps your mix honest and also reveals problems in the alignment or level between your different PA elements. Thats right! Feeding the same mix to everything allows your mixing results to be far more consistent. Your LR mix could sound muddy because you have too much bass guitar in it. But if you're barely feeding that same bass guitar to the subs, you're going to be chasing this muddiness that could simply be fixed by bringing the bass guitar down in your LR mix. Because you brought your bass guitar down in your LR mix and your sub aux his post-fader, you'll then have to adjust your bass guitar in your subs mixed up. Its absolute madness.
The only reason it becomes "two different systems firing independently of each other" is LATENCY. The X32 is an industry-changing board, and still the best option for features vs. cost, but it (and yes, the M32 as well) is FULL OF COMPROMISES. All those cost savings came from somewhere, and a big part of it is the mix engine. Buss processing can add latency in DOUBLE-DIGIT msecs! This can create phasing issues that really affect your mix. BUT, the X32 and M32 have forced many manufacturers to make mid- and entry-level desks... And where they chose to set themselves apart was in BETTER PROCESSING, many by REDUCING latency. Fun fact: all things being equal: when you double your sampling rate you cut your latency IN HALF. I strongly urge any of you serious about Sound Reinforcement to get on mailing lists to go to manufacturer's demos in your region. Attend some conferences; HEAR BETTER EQUIPMENT. You can really improve your mixes by knowing the limitations of your gear, and/ or get a clearer idea of exactky get when it's time to upgrade.
My church uses the SI Impact from Soundcraft. It has a L&R output and Mono output. Individual channels can be set to send to the L&R and/or to the mono. We have the main PA on the L&R and the sub on the mono. This is, however, not what you are referring to in the video, correct?
Can you send a different level to the Mono than the LR? For example, could you send a level of -3 to the LR and -6 to the Mono? If so, then that is basically what this video is talking about. The point of the video is to not use the sub control for each instrument as if it were an extension of your EQ as that would cause inconsistencies in your other mixes (in-ears, recordings, broadcast, etc). I hope that clears things up. Thanks for watching and commenting! -Chad
@@AWTechTuesday To my knowledge, there is no way to send two different signal levels for the same channel to the L&R and the mono. There are buttons that you push to send the signal. There is a fader for both the L&R and the mono out of the board. Now that I say that it sounds suspiciously like we what you're talking about. I think it's a little different though. Every channel has a button for each the L&R and mono. The Matrix sends can be set up to to take the L&R, mono, and Mix busses when you are editing that particular Matrix contribution. So in your example, I wouldn't be able to boost the low end in the house PA without increasing the low end in the matrix contribution. However we have to be sure that we don't send things like cymbals to the subwoofer mono channel. On the other side we could have they kick drum setup to not send it signal to the mono output which would mean it wasn't going to the subwoofer at all.
I think you'll be okay. You could potentially send everything to the mono send and use your filters to remove anything that shouldn't be there. It's not a big deal but the cool thing about doing that is that it would help you to not overlook any issues going to your other feeds. For example, as you mentioned cymbals, most overhead mics have the ability to pick up the low-end from the kit, the bass guitar, etc. By simply removing it from the mono bus, you ensure that you won't hear it in the room but that doesn't necessarily mean that that low-end won't be going to your recording mix, your in-ears, etc. May not be a big deal but it's worth thinking about :) -Chad
The difference between the Soundcraft and the X32 is that big phat Mono bus send level knob on the X32 channel strip. It is so much quicker to tweak the channel sub level than reprogram the clunky X32 paramucktric EQ controls, you feel like a chump if you don't take full advantage of it. With the Soundcraft, you have a full matrix of dedicated EQ controls for each channel, eliminating the need for the X32's Mono send level control.
From your explanation you can still use aux fed subs, if you have a thin sounding bass, fix it at the source - i.e. the bass channel. An aux send is just another form of matrix.
In the traditional sense, a Matrix isn't the same as an aux. On some mixers (usually Yamaha), you can treat a matrix like a mix and can send individual channels to it. In my particular example, I'm treating a Matrix as a "mix of mixes", meaning the LR mix is sent to the matrices and is then filtered and processed before hitting the final destination. The reason why this is important is, if you fix a muddy or thin signal by adjust the level going to the aux, rather than adjusting the channel EQ, those changes will affect the house mix but not the other mixes (in-ears, monitors, broadcast, etc). Assuming the room is tuned well and instruments are isolated well, the methods I suggest may result in more consistent tone across all of your mixes. It's not for everyone or every situation. I work with a lot of small to medium churches where there are not enough qualified engineers to mix FOH and Broadcast independently on separate mixers. In those instances, this technique helps a ton. Hope that all makes sense. Thanks for watching and commenting! -Chad
@@AWTechTuesday Thanks for taking the time to provide an explanation. All i'm saying is if you instead bump up the eq on the bass guitar channel, there is no difference between using aux fed or matrix fed subs and the feed to a broadcast mix will be affected as well.
You are correct :) The problem I'm addressing is an issue where people use the aux send basically as a low shelf control. That said, if everything is going to the aux at the same level, then you are absolutely correct and there should be no sonic difference :) -Chad
I have a question we just switched to the X32 with two S 16 I am having trouble getting the signal to come out of the speakers what part in the routing am I missing 😳
There isn’t really any info to go off of here. It would probably be quicker to email me a copy of your scene at TechTuesday@AscensionWorship.com If you catch me at a slow moment, I’ll take a look and see what’s going on :) -Chad
Well, I am kinda on the Splitside. 1. Is totally valid. It is much easier without aux fed buss. 4 Also kinda plays into that. For 2: is that one Bus really that much? Especially on the x32, where you have a dedicated Bus for subs. What else are you going to use that for? For 3: No! Unfortunately, that is not how low cuts work. Just try muting all the Channels, you'd usually put un a Sub Bus. Then listen to what is on your Sub. Channel. There is still a lot of rumble, and shit. So if you can do it, does make a lot of sense.
In regards to other purposes for the M/C bus, because it can only be a post-fade send, I actually use it as one of my reverb sends. I use 3 FX busses. By moving one of them to the M/C bus, I’m not using an even number of buses for FX in my 16 “regular” busses. Because of the way the DSP works on the X32, this makes it easier to have other stereo Bus configurations, compared to having an odd number of busses for FX. I hope that made sense. I’m very tired right now haha.
can you explain the matrix fed sub? right now we just have 2 loud speaker and i am wondering if do we really need a subwoofer. Im new to all this mixing and digital mixing using xr18 but I am excited to get our church at least up and running but again we do not have sub at the moment. ty
If you have bass guitar, kick drum, or anything else that requires a lot of low end, adding a sub will give you a fuller sound and ease up how much you’re pushing your main speakers. Depending on the speakers you have, they can probably handle some of that low end energy but they will generally operate more efficiently if you can delegate those frequencies to the sub instead. You can see a quick demonstration of this here - m.ruclips.net/video/pzDcHUSYB_A/видео.html Hope that helps :) -Chad
Hi, I don't really understand the difference between a Group-Fed Sub vs Matrix-Fed Sub vs Aux-Fed Sub. I've watched a handful of other videos including some of yours. I have an X32, and Currently what we do is old school L/R into a crossover then into the Sub Amps. We did a show this weekend with an already hired sound guy (rare for us) instead of our usual stuff, and he said the only thing in his subs were Kick, Floor Tom, and Bass Guitar, and it sounded amazing. Low end was super punchy and thick but didn't step on the vocals. I'd like to replicate that, because our Subs are a little bit lacking and I'd like to push them as far as I can by removing all excess low-end information into my subs and get the maximum mileage out of them, so to speak, before deciding to lug more gear around. But from what I've read so far it seems like there's multiple ways to achieve this, I just don't understand how they're all that different. I'm leaning toward the Aux-Fed approach since we do record, but it's all multi-track and Pre EQ, and then mixed at home after the fact, but I'm open to something else if it makes more sense for us.
I'm not certain where it comes from but I like to describe a Matrix as being a "mix of mixes". I typically use it as a means of processing my Main LR mix for use with different speakers but it can also be used to blend together different mixes (like if you wanted to feed more drums to some speakers than others on top of your main mix). But I generally use it as a final pitstop before hitting the intended speaker(s). This allows me to add filters, EQ, or compression as needed to one set of speakers without affecting the others. I hope that clears things up a little. Thanks for watching and commenting! -Chad
It comes from the electronics world where a matrix is a group of things (very loosely translated). An aux gets individual channels, a matrix combines auxes/mixes, so I think of it as a step above an aux, so not generally also an Auxillary.
@@kc9tae So, in essence, you are saying that matrix mixes are copies of the main L&R used to send the L&R to different places like other speakers or for streaming online etc??
Snysh they can do that, they also can blend different groups/auxes/mixes together. Let’s say you wanted to control the level of speaking mics, vocal mics and instruments going to a recording. You could use a matrix to mix groups (or post fader auxes) together for that recording. We did this for our CD’s for folks that were shutins so the vocals were more prevalent, backed the instrumentals down a bit and brought the speaking mics up so you weren’t playing the “volume game” when listening to it.
There are times when I prefer that but I generally like to have the control at the mixer for easier access. Just depends on the situation and budget :) -Chad
Chad, are you familiar with the XAir12? It has only 2 analog Aux. But the software gives you a few more that look like they can feed the LR. Could using one of the virtual aux be the same as using your matrix-fed sub process?
Hey Andy! It's been a while since I've used one of those. If I remember correctly, one way to achieve the same result is to send every channel to the aux at the same level (likely 0.0 or maybe something like -6 for a little headroom) and then treat that aux as you would a matrix with a low pass filter and level it out to your mains. Don't forget to high pass the mains as well. Let me know how that works for ya. -Chad
@@AWTechTuesday I experimented with that today. Seemed to work. Well enough. It would be nice if Behringer would allow you to link that last bus to LR, like Mono is on the X32.
Unfortunately, no. Closest thing you can do on that mixer is to set up a post-fade bus, send every channel at a level of 0.0 and use the bus master as a master volume for your subs. I hope that all made sense :) -Chad
We are switching to a M32 from a GL2400. We have passive subs, and powered tops. We are currently using a Drive Rack with the 2400. Should I just keep the Drive Rack, or use a matrix?
If you have the outputs available, I’d go with matrices on the M32 so you can have all your processing in one place. I’d do a DriveRack if you have multiple groups using the mixer (for example a Boy Scout group that needs to use the mixer from time to time). -Chad
@@AWTechTuesday do you have, or know of a video that breaks that process down for noobs? I've been analog all my life, and just catching up with the times. We never used the matrix on the A&H.
@@calebrabion as a matter of fact, I do :) haha. Here’s one of my favorites that does that. Hope it helps :) m.ruclips.net/video/pzDcHUSYB_A/видео.html -Chad
My church has an analog board and is probably going to replace it in the near future. I do the media and am new to some of this. I had just heard of using Aux Fed Subs and was feeling a bit overwhelmed at one more thing to have to learn. Not having to really worry about this will be a big help.
Although I get the point of using matrices for FOH with arrays and subs,, using them for streaming sounds just too weird for me (no pun intended). Due to acoustics, amps on stage, drums bleeding on stage and etc, the mix will be different. Mixing the Stream on an Aux is just so easy I really can't see the benefits of doing other way.
I agree but for some churches, matrices are an easier option :) Either way, the point of the video is the same - mixing subs on an aux can adversely affect the individual EQs on channels that can be heard on a stream mix (either through a matrix or a separate mix channel). Thanks for watching and commenting, Andre! -Chad
If you don’t boost a source beyond nominal all of the destination will sound the same. You are unnecessarily creating the very problem you are using as the argument against AUX fed subs. Why? Post fader AUX fed subs at nominal achieve a much better result for all.
Even if you were doing aux fed subs back in the day with you should have been used a crossover to hfp and lpf the signal fed to the subs. You should still be doing it. No reason to send 200hz to the subs. With digigal boards you should still be able to send that aux to other feeds (live stream, etc)
It depends on what console you're using and your tap points (if your mixer can adjust those). Usually, your EQ and compression will affect the ears, but the fader should not. Personally, I work on a variety of mixers so I try to use the same mixing philosophy despite which console I am on that day :) I hope that clears things up. Let me know if you have any more questions. -Chad
Any of my techs that use the Mono send (X32) to increase bass on a channel will get their hand slapped the first time. The second time they lose a finger. j/k Seriously though, I EQ the room with the Main (LR) and Mono (Sub) feeds at unity. When I train, I just say, "Don't ever touch this section of the board." I'll go into further detail for those that are interested in the why. All sound shaping is done with the EQ and Dynamics sections where it belongs.
You're fighting against the X32 tide, if you don't like low-end hype why use a board that has it built-in? Aux-fed sub is a bread-and-butter DJ technique, which is where the X32 rules.
Using the a channel's Mono send to increase bass (via subwoofer) is what "aux-fed sub" refers to. In practice, the Mono bus is Behringer's designated subwoofer channel.
You apparently don’t work rap or EDM shows or don’t work in rooms that do not have ideal treatment- there are many instances where an aux fed subs are still relevant.
To anyone reading the comments: Aux fed subs is a trend that unfortunately has become common practice. If you are having issues with low frequencies entering the sub-cabinets (that shouldn't be there), you do not have your console (or xover) setup correctly. I have never used aux-fed subs... and have never had issues with "stray" bass frequencies. As well, aux-fed subs have certain "sound" to them, and many times (not all) it's not good.
Thank you Robert. For example, high hat doesn't wind up in the subs because 1) you filter the hi hat channel appropriately and 2) your crossover filters audio for your subs appropriately. Two layers of filter that prevent "stray" audio.
1) ease of use is invalid. You will be forced to eq the crap out of your individual channels. This will reduce the quality of your in ear mixes as well. 2) lack of resources is not a choice its a limitation
Hey Ishaan! Thanks for watching and commenting! Generally, when it comes to channel EQ and its affect on the in-ears, I have found the reality to be the opposite of your assumption here but that completely depends on how well the PA has been tuned for the room. If the PA has been tuned poorly (or not at all) you are absolutely correct -that would result in unnecessary or excessive EQ changes and those changes would not be favorable to in-ear mixes, broadcast, lobby, etc. However, if your room is tuned well, those changes can actually be favorable to those mixes. Case in point - imagine a volunteer working with an acoustic guitar that is being plugged in for the first time. In this example, the acoustic is picking up a ton of rumble around 80hz and below. The volunteer isn’t hearing that rumble in the house because the acoustic is not routed to the subs but that rumble is muddying up the in-ears and the livestream mix. Alternatively, in a matrix situation (with a well tuned PA), the acoustic would be in the subs, therefore the volunteer would be able to hear the rumble (hopefully haha). Now, if the volunteer applies a proper HPF, the acoustic will now clear up in the room, ears, and online all at the same time. I hope that clears things up further. Thanks again for watching and commenting! -Chad
@@AWTechTuesday Assumptions are based on fiction. I regularly have been mixing acts with upto 40 IEMs since over 15yrs. - assumption is to think that the room will always be tuned. - assumption is to think 80hz is where it will always boom. In this dynamic environment not having sub on an aux is an absolute no no for me. Cool tip: On an average it takes me less than 20mins to align the subs to the main using a simple impulse response on smart (if its a small gig) Infact I prefer stereo aux for subs. Depending on a system’s engineer is not gonna save your job. And asking an artist to put a hpf is a bad move or lets just say its the last resort. Gotta make it a seamless experience for the artist and the venue.
The best argument for Aux-fed Subs is that you can eliminate low frequency noise (primarily mechanical) noise from all mics that don't need to capture low-frequencies (such as your hi-hat mic). Basically, you only have kick drums, floor tom, and bass guitar going to the subs and nothing else.
That is true. The argument I’m making here is that that’s perfectly fine if you’re ONLY mixing for FOH. If you’re mixer also controls aspects of livestream and/or monitor mixes, that mechanical noise still exists in those mixes since they are still sending a full-range signal. By using a matrix-fed sub on a properly tuned system (this is key), you can hear that mechanical noise at FOH and now utilize High Pass Filters and Low Shelves to reduce or remove those problem frequencies from ALL mixes affected by your mixer.
I don’t have a huge problem with Aux-Fed Subs if your mixer is only responsible for FOH except that I don’t want to encourage dependency on techniques that aren’t properly applicable to all mixing scenarios.
I hope that clears things up some, James. Thanks so much for watching and commenting!
-Chad
I understand that you want the mix to translate to livestream, but if you have another engineer working on the live stream in a separate mix then you should be able to boost bass frequencies independent of front of house. I understand some churches are limited in this area but I have encountered using a hp filter to reduce what’s fed to the subs can also make the audio sound thin especially on guitars and vocals. I’m new to live mixing, but I’m considering using aux fed subs because I want to have the body of the different instrument without having any mud fed to the subs. I have noticed with everything routed to the subs you get a lot of unwanted lower harmonics and mechanical noise, and I don’t like cutting into the fundamental frequency of the instruments, which is usually going to be anywhere from 150 to 300 Hertz. All that being said maybe the system im working on isn’t tuned properly and the crossover is set a little to high. When I solo what’s going to the subs I’m getting a lot of mud and I have a feeling it’s affecting the overall quality of the mix, and the articulation of the low end.
@@jimmyweaver5843 This video is mostly aimed at churches and organizations that do not have multiple engineers for multiple positions. That said, I’ve decided for me to implement what I call Unified Technique, meaning that I don’t want to dramatically change my techniques for different venues, so I choose to mix without aux fed subs each time so that I don’t train myself up in what I consider to be bad technique. My life has been easier since going this direction haha. For mixers that are already set up to have aux-fed subs, I just push all the send levels to the same amount and then treat the sub master as I would a matrix.
Do what works best for you but I would investigate the crossover points on your mains and subs just so you’re fully aware of what’s going on (especially if your mix also affects monitors and livestream).
Thanks for watching and commenting!
-Chad
There's a High Pass Filter for each of the channels. Even some mics have HPF.
@@PeejaiiOanes Right - but that HPF is not a crossover quality HPF - the slope of the curve isn't the same, as what would be used for crossover. In the old days crossover required specialized outboard gear, or special DSP in gear built into the speakers themselves, etc. A big part of that was the reality that your average (high end) live sound parametric EQ still wasn't going to provide the same kind of curve as crossover units did. Fast forward to the present - there are many places/ways for the crossover to take place. The X32, et al. have specific crossover filters available for the buss or matrix HPF that are not available, to my knowledge, on the input channels.
Hi Chad. Please don't take this as a negative, but rather jus my opinion from experience. I feel al your reasons don't make sense, since I've found it to be the opposite.
Reason #1, Post-fader aux fed subs are mixed identically to crossover subs on the console. It doesn't make it easier or harder for volunteers.
Your whole approach to Reason #4 is wrong. With your Aux fed example, you used the level send to the sub aux bus to increase the low end.. Thats not how it should be done and not how we mix. If you need more bottom end, you still use the eq! Or just raise the fader to increase overall level of the bass/kick. Aux fed sub busses are always post fader, for that very reason. Of course the stream mix won't reflect any changes if you mix the subs using the individual sends. (ain't nobody got time fot that). Lol
We use aux fed subs to clean out the subs from any unnecessary rumble from the other channels, even those with hpf on. When your working with a large line array, 60+ channels, their low end can still add up to an audible amount. Having quick control over subs is a must have!
Thank you for the effort to try and teach us. I'm one of those church collaborators that without a professional formation try to do their best to serve God in sound mixing. Your tutorials have been extremely helpful. God bless you.
Man, when I stopped using aux fed subs a few years ago in favour of matrix fed, my whole mix improved drastically! The biggest benefit I found was that now all my buss processing, including parallel drum compression is now actually feeding the subs, instead of just straight off the channel. Absolute game changer if you're processing busses 🤘🏼
I've been mixing live acts for 14 years. This includes huge festivals too. I only benefit from aux fed subs. It works great. If you have a good digital console you can achieve almost anything. There are many tools, dynamics and options to make it sound magic.
100%
Good video. Makes a lot of sense about a broadcast or in-ear mix when you are doing it from front of house.
One thing I might add is how aux fed subs have the potential to mess with your system alignment (if it is aligned between subs and mains). This is often overlooked or is a point that is not known from a mixing standpoint, and adding too much to the subs can shift your crossover region. When working with volunteers, this can be something that may not be mentioned because of the level of complexity, but if you do have your system aligned, adding too much or too little to the subs can make system tuning pointless if a tolerance level is not given. This is another reason why feeding the main signal to the subs will avoid a lot of this.
Excellent point. Thanks for commenting!
If your PA is set up properly and as close to linear as possible (what you put you get out), you don’t “eq” via aux fed sub. You send a standardized amount (unity for single channel or -6 for stereo channels) and eq with the eq. You shouldn’t be using the sub send for color anymore than you are using the main outs for color. I do this on the cl5 I run daily as well as the x32 that gets constant use also at work.
If you send channels to subs that don’t belong there, you still end up with extraneous noise in the sub region. HPF, even variable slope ons, still pass information beyond their shoulder frequency. 4 sources with a hpf set at 100, with a slope of 12 db per octave (which is the steeper slope on a cl5 channel eq), pass significant energy to subland, as all that undesirable energy sums in the board and bus send.
Yes, you have a point with volunteers, but my experience shows that if you set up presets, including proper sub send settings, they will use those first. Take the time to instruct the volunteers about the why we do things and they tend to follow those instructions to a T.
I have been a professional in live sound for well over a decade in professional live theatre, as well as installs at churches and schools. Without aux fed subs, I wouldn’t be able to cleanly put 20 to 30 omni lavs, on actors, as well as a full band through the same pa on my current stage, in where the subs are above the actors.
I prefer to use the mono/center fader for my subs linked to the LR fader so that the FOH volume is controlled by the LR main fader and you can just leave the mono fader at unity. Then on the channels that you have low end material you simply activate the mono send and leave it at unity. This keeps all of the low end from all of the other mics from adding together and building up in the subs. Because even with the low cut there is still low end it is just turned down many dB. So if you add all of those channels signals that have the low cut set you end up with low rumble again in the subs. As far as the "volunteers" go; just train them on their setup and have them make a video of the training so they can review it from time to time and they will also have something to show any other people that want to learn as well.
Jeffrey Crouch I’m fine with that approach so long as the mixer is only mixing for the crowd. For me, one of the main issues is the tonal differences that may occur for other mixes tied to that mixer (in-ears, broadcast, lobby, etc).
Apart, from that, I’m with ya :)
-Chad
@@AWTechTuesday Normally your broadcast, lobby, etc. is ran from the Matrices and you want those to be pre EQ and pre fader anyways so they will be uneffected by the HP filter being used by the mains. The IEM are normally ran from the buses so again they aren't effected by the HP on the main fader either. So your worry has no grounds. With this setup you are only effecting the FOH and as long as you have the mono fader set to unity both in the channels you want sent to subs and in the main section, and you have the master mono fader set to follow the LR then you don't have to worry about any phasing caused by unbalanced volume between subs and tops.
#1 reason for using Aux Subs/Sub Bus: dynamic control of ALL low end that you choose to bus.
Being able to ramp up parts or bring down just the low end a smidge is a huge benefit for dynamic control and creating emotion in a mix context.
True enough. However, you can also do that with a matrix (assuming you are running the matrix on the console and not an external processor)
:)
Neither approach will translate to a stream mix or other rooms but that's not necessarily the end of the world.
Interesting point! Thanks for watching and commenting!
-Chad
@@AWTechTuesday create a separate stream matrix is the easiest way to do so, on some consoles you can route your LR mains to a matrix so just feed your left right to a matrix and there you go
Ascension Worship - #TechTuesday poll
I've been experimenting with aux-fed subs on our church's X32 (using a specific scene that has the audio routed that way, so as not to confuse other volunteers who mix). I was always pretty conscientious about keeping vocal microphones high passed as much as I could without making them sound thin, so there hasn't been a massive reduction in muddiness from using the aux-fed technique, (which was the original motivation for trying it in the first place). On the down-side, it adds to the cognitive overload to have to think about whether and how much bass aux send to use, particularly with certain mixer channels that may get reassigned per worship service. Furthermore, it's nicer to have controllability and visibility of the entire EQ curve in one place, and have the displayed EQ curve reflect what is really going on, even below 100Hz.
Agreed
Interesting points. I do FOH sound for a bar & grill, so I use the M/C channel to feed my subs on an X32 console. We do not stream or send sound to any other room, so I haven't used the matrix channels for anything at this point. I've tried to tell my boss it would be good to set up a live feed online and then I would have a use for the matrix channels, and doing my mix a bit different for consistency might be needed if we ever decide to stream our shows online.
At this point though, I prefer my subs on a separate send. I like the control of being able to put anything I want into the sub channel by simply hitting the mono send on the channel strip. Makes it really easy to keep things like kick, floor toms, and bass in my subs, which for most bands is all I need in the subs, which keeps the bottom end clean and concise. On occasion I will have backing tracks/keys/synths, which I will also add to the sub channel, but it's a one button press and you have control of how much you are sending to the mono channel.
I use the buss sends for monitors. We have 4 monitors with 4 separate mixes, so I have plenty of buss' left for sub-grouping my vocals, guitars, drums, etc. Gives me a lot of EQ and compression options having my board set up this way.
Great video! I've used crossover fed subs for years and considered trying aux fed, but I think I'll stick with what I'm doing.
One thing a lot of people don't realize is that subs are not there for big, booming bass, they're there to get the mains flat down to 30Hz or so. I other words, they are not a form of tone control. If you want big, booming bass you should turn up the low EQ band on that channel. I almost set up a church's new system with an AUX-fed sub but quickly realized the problems it could cause, so I bought them a regular analogue crossover. Problem avoided, no extra outputs or busses required.
Stephen Baldassarre and no what do we do if the board has a software failure and the crossover I set up disappears 5 minutes before service starts
The best argument for Aux-fed Subs is that you can eliminate low frequency noise (primarily mechanical) noise from all mics that don't need to capture low-frequencies (such as your hi-hat mic). Basically, you only have kick drums, floor tom, and bass guitar going to the subs and nothing else.
@@jamescarter8311 You can do that with a buss, which is easily calibrated so simply "on" sends the signal at the appropriate amount to the subs. No guesswork.
@@TheWinndizzle The same thing would happen with an Aux-fed sub. You still need high-pass/low-pass filters on the AUX that you have to set up again. Putting the necessary processing on a buss or matrix doesn't take any less time.
I feel like the last reason is more of an argument against running in ears on the foh board rather than aux fed subs. Most boards have the ability to make a mix bus for ears pre or post eq and dynamics. Generally, most of the changes I make for foh sound OK in the in ears. The real issue is when it comes to gain since you can’t exactly change the channel gain for specific mixes without double patching something. For me, as long as the aux fed subs are set to post fader and I’m not using them as a sort of eq enhancement, they are a better option. Most people using in ears don’t even know the difference as long as they can hear the source and mix volume.
I prefer sub-group fed subs personally. The send level follows the channel fader and can't be changed. Makes it just as easy to use as a matrix, although it does eat up a bus.
Well stated and you have gone a long way to convincing me to stop using aux fed subs - in my case with the Wing I use the main 2 mix for the sub. My stream mix is post fader so it is fed based on changes to the channels, but my room mix goes to the main room channels directly from the DCAs and my stream mix goes through busses where I can make minor tweaks to instruments that sound different in the room compared to the mix. In the room I dont do any bus processing - I do parallel compression on the drums in the stream mix and mild bus compression for vocals and band.
Having said all of that - this set up is super flexible for me and the other experienced FoH tech, but it is not low experience volunteer friendly at all.
I am going to try matrix option and see how it feels - honestly, when you get used to aux fed sub, you feel like something is missing on systems without it, but managing the amount of sub through channel EQ and overall mix definitely has its merits.
When each time you said stream feed, where was that coming from?
Also, specific to X32 matrix, you can send the LR to the matrix but if you use post fade on the LR and set a filter to about 100 Hz on your main LR it filters out 100 Hz and below to your subs. You can set the send to pre eq, but it is also pre fader so the LR fader no longer controls the matrix level sub
As far as keeping the vocals out of your subs with the MC set up, you can turn vocals off in the MC feed and they won’t go through. If you feed your matrix with the LR send you will have to filter it to 75 or lower to keep vocals out
I think your MC method is far better because as you said in your video it is about more control. Plus You can set filtering’s on the left right and MC channel to give you a more uniform mix and still keep your dynamics and EQ for the MC separate.
Thanks for the video
Can you explain routing more details please? How about stream if I only have 4 mono matrix ?
very good video but how to use the metrix fed subs instead of aux fed
You can see an example here:
m.ruclips.net/video/pzDcHUSYB_A/видео.html
Dunning-Kruger effect is very real and I'm peaking so I need to hurry up and get this thing set up before I figure out what I really don't know. Chance's are you'll be getting an email from me but I don't even know what to ask yet. I do want to say thanks for these videos they are helping me figure out some things. Good explanation of the why, which is the hard part. one thing on this video I wish there was a link in the description maybe to the video on how you set up the x32 for matrix subs. Thanks again.
Charles Shirley Hey Charles! Here’s a video about setting up a matrix. Hope it gets you pointed in the right direction :)
m.ruclips.net/video/Tq6bJNRQxZY/видео.html
Thanks for watching and commenting!
-Chad
Wat about for dj?
Just use a system processor like a drive rack. Should always have a real crossover in your speaker system.
You should be using a cross over to provide hpf and lpf for your subs even with aux fed subs. No reason to fed anything too high to the subs.
Can you give an example of the setup for Matrix fed subs? I imagine that you're setting up a crossover etc. It would be nice to see the execution of the setup.
Hi, thanks for watching and commenting! Check out this video around the 8 minute mark. It's quick and hypothetical but will give you an idea about what I'm talking about - ruclips.net/video/pzDcHUSYB_A/видео.html
-Chad
Thanks so much. But please can u tell me the problem. Subwoofer seem not to work.
Joshua Otoaruo Hey Joshua! My first thought is to check your routing. I like I do this by using the oscillator to send a tone. Here’s a video about that - m.ruclips.net/video/TA3EFW9Fubc/видео.html
Treat your sound like water flowing through pipes. Follow the path all the way and make sure that everything is working and unmuted. Hope that helps :)
-Chad
So would you use the MC set up previously described on the X32 or this?
I know a church that records off the output of one of the subgroups and a pre-fader post EQ scenario. The only problem is any change you make an EQ going into the sub group will be reflected and you cannot change that for a lifestream mix. Words the key for the house makes may not be the same Hugh for a broadcast or last rain mix.
The only problem with recording from the house mix is your assuming that the house mix will be the same mix for broadcast.
With an X 32 would it not be better to use the MC sub group mix as you described in a previous video?
Wendell Nall Hey Wendell! Thanks so much for watching and commenting. If I were mixing on a console that only controls what the crowd hears and has no bearing on in-ears or recording, then I would prefer the method of a subs aux (using the M/C).
You’re absolutely correct, for the matrix method to be most effective, you have to have a decent room tuning.
By removing vocals from the subs mix, I guarantee that to be true in the room but that has no effect on people watching at home with a sub (though honestly most people are probably listening with phone or laptop speakers haha).
It’s not a perfect solution, but in my experience, apart from setting up a completely separate mixer for broadcast, this method gives me the most consistent results across all the mixes leaving my desk.
I hope that clears things up a bit. Thanks again for watching and commenting!
-Chad
I notice most of the local churches on the island I live don't use matrix mix I did setup a church and matrix was so important to me because I to live stream and radio live and media room
I have found that drive racks or cross over will not give me the clearaty I want maybe is different because im more usto big events or crowded areas with less echo but I tryed everything and I onestly hate rhe mud in between how ever I do modefy a mot of mixes with GET
Sometimes I get a noise on lead vocal, from our Behringer split rack, if I sent FOH a aux of my lead vocal form our Soundcraft 24UI would that be ok?
I’m not super familiar with the soundcraft. Be aware that your processing on the Soundcraft may also affect that aux out.
@@AWTechTuesday cool. We just listen to raw vocals with a little HP
What about for dj use only. i use my main outs for my tops and aux sends for my subs. Digital mixer btw... Am I good here or is it better to use just main outs
Probably not as big of a deal since your rig has very few inputs. This is more of an issue for full band setups.
Can you demonstrate the routing on your "matrix fed sub"? How does the routing differ from aux fed sub? Thanks.
I've got a few videos on that topic. Start with this one - ruclips.net/video/pzDcHUSYB_A/видео.html
Hope that helps :)
- Chad
What if I put my rca aux cable and put into my fm transmitter would it work
For a car
So in a house mix w an aux fed sub if a high cut filter is applied how do you induce any extra slap to a kick if those frequencies are cut? Or did i miss something?
ratboyninja The higher frequencies would still come from the main speakers. Sub frequencies are relegated to the subwoofers while mids, highs, (and sometimes also sub frequencies) would go to your mains.
So, if you were to add some top end to your kick or bass, you would still hear that in either scenario. Great question!
-chad
Thanks man much appreciated!
I really need help with our mix in house and live stream been working in sound a while but not a pro by no means I am use a soundcraft si impact out of Madi into iMac and Ableton live 11 to feed Loopback into OBS and then Facebook live .... please help
So for best results for both FOH and Live Stream use your main L/R to feed your Matrix and use a crossover on the Matrix to feed your tops and subs? Dont use the M/C mono for subs cause that will sound good in house but not on live stream.
Correct :)
-Chad
My personal preference is a external crossover..!
When you say “matrix fed subs” I don’t understand the difference between just using the mono output for subs. It seems to do the same thing. Our board is set up to have all of the mix going through main LR with a LPF ~120hz and our mono bus feeding the subs using a HPF ~120hz. Is there a specific benefit to using a matrix to do the same thing? For reference, we have our house speakers going out of one amp into 2 passive speakers and our 2 passive subs going mono out of another amp.
Great question. It really becomes an issue when you have one mixer controlling more than just what the local crowd is hearing. If your EQ affects monitors, broadcast, or any other mix apart from the main room, you could have low frequency information that is very different in those mixes than what you are hearing in your room.
For example, imagine, that you have an acoustic guitar that has a low hum from a grounding issue. If it was humming at 60hz but you were only sending the acoustic to the mains and not to the mono (in the example of your setup), you would not hear the hum in the room but it would be heard in the ears, online, etc.
In the example I propose in this video, because everything has the capacity to go to the subs, you would likely hear the hum, be able to adjust your low cut accordingly, and that low cut would remove the hum from all those outputs previously mentioned.
Again, excellent question. I hope that clears things up.
-Chad
i use matrix send
Your reason #1 is 100% correct. Whether volunteers are involved or not, dealing with one mix is easier than dealing with two. Don't be fooled. You may be using the same sources of audio (i.e. your input channels), but you are no doubt creating two completely separate mixes that have nothing to do with one another and then being forced to manage them separately. You aux-fed people don't seem to think this is the case, but it is. The result is two separate systems (tops and subs) firing independently of each another.
And then there's the "i have more control over my mix" people who use aux-fed. And let's not forget the "my mix sounds better on an aux" people. There's only one mix you should worry about: the main bus. If that mix-the LR mix- sounds like garbage when you fed it directly to your subs, then your mix is garbage. Creating one mix and sending it to all elements of your speaker system keeps your mix honest and also reveals problems in the alignment or level between your different PA elements. Thats right! Feeding the same mix to everything allows your mixing results to be far more consistent. Your LR mix could sound muddy because you have too much bass guitar in it. But if you're barely feeding that same bass guitar to the subs, you're going to be chasing this muddiness that could simply be fixed by bringing the bass guitar down in your LR mix. Because you brought your bass guitar down in your LR mix and your sub aux his post-fader, you'll then have to adjust your bass guitar in your subs mixed up. Its absolute madness.
The only reason it becomes "two different systems firing independently of each other" is LATENCY. The X32 is an industry-changing board, and still the best option for features vs. cost, but it (and yes, the M32 as well) is FULL OF COMPROMISES. All those cost savings came from somewhere, and a big part of it is the mix engine. Buss processing can add latency in DOUBLE-DIGIT msecs! This can create phasing issues that really affect your mix.
BUT, the X32 and M32 have forced many manufacturers to make mid- and entry-level desks... And where they chose to set themselves apart was in BETTER PROCESSING, many by REDUCING latency. Fun fact: all things being equal: when you double your sampling rate you cut your latency IN HALF. I strongly urge any of you serious about Sound Reinforcement to get on mailing lists to go to manufacturer's demos in your region. Attend some conferences; HEAR BETTER EQUIPMENT. You can really improve your mixes by knowing the limitations of your gear, and/ or get a clearer idea of exactky get when it's time to upgrade.
My church uses the SI Impact from Soundcraft.
It has a L&R output and Mono output. Individual channels can be set to send to the L&R and/or to the mono. We have the main PA on the L&R and the sub on the mono.
This is, however, not what you are referring to in the video, correct?
Can you send a different level to the Mono than the LR? For example, could you send a level of -3 to the LR and -6 to the Mono? If so, then that is basically what this video is talking about. The point of the video is to not use the sub control for each instrument as if it were an extension of your EQ as that would cause inconsistencies in your other mixes (in-ears, recordings, broadcast, etc).
I hope that clears things up.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
-Chad
@@AWTechTuesday To my knowledge, there is no way to send two different signal levels for the same channel to the L&R and the mono. There are buttons that you push to send the signal.
There is a fader for both the L&R and the mono out of the board.
Now that I say that it sounds suspiciously like we what you're talking about. I think it's a little different though.
Every channel has a button for each the L&R and mono. The Matrix sends can be set up to to take the L&R, mono, and Mix busses when you are editing that particular Matrix contribution.
So in your example, I wouldn't be able to boost the low end in the house PA without increasing the low end in the matrix contribution. However we have to be sure that we don't send things like cymbals to the subwoofer mono channel. On the other side we could have they kick drum setup to not send it signal to the mono output which would mean it wasn't going to the subwoofer at all.
I think you'll be okay. You could potentially send everything to the mono send and use your filters to remove anything that shouldn't be there. It's not a big deal but the cool thing about doing that is that it would help you to not overlook any issues going to your other feeds. For example, as you mentioned cymbals, most overhead mics have the ability to pick up the low-end from the kit, the bass guitar, etc. By simply removing it from the mono bus, you ensure that you won't hear it in the room but that doesn't necessarily mean that that low-end won't be going to your recording mix, your in-ears, etc. May not be a big deal but it's worth thinking about :)
-Chad
The difference between the Soundcraft and the X32 is that big phat Mono bus send level knob on the X32 channel strip. It is so much quicker to tweak the channel sub level than reprogram the clunky X32 paramucktric EQ controls, you feel like a chump if you don't take full advantage of it. With the Soundcraft, you have a full matrix of dedicated EQ controls for each channel, eliminating the need for the X32's Mono send level control.
From your explanation you can still use aux fed subs, if you have a thin sounding bass, fix it at the source - i.e. the bass channel. An aux send is just another form of matrix.
In the traditional sense, a Matrix isn't the same as an aux. On some mixers (usually Yamaha), you can treat a matrix like a mix and can send individual channels to it. In my particular example, I'm treating a Matrix as a "mix of mixes", meaning the LR mix is sent to the matrices and is then filtered and processed before hitting the final destination.
The reason why this is important is, if you fix a muddy or thin signal by adjust the level going to the aux, rather than adjusting the channel EQ, those changes will affect the house mix but not the other mixes (in-ears, monitors, broadcast, etc). Assuming the room is tuned well and instruments are isolated well, the methods I suggest may result in more consistent tone across all of your mixes.
It's not for everyone or every situation. I work with a lot of small to medium churches where there are not enough qualified engineers to mix FOH and Broadcast independently on separate mixers. In those instances, this technique helps a ton.
Hope that all makes sense. Thanks for watching and commenting!
-Chad
@@AWTechTuesday Thanks for taking the time to provide an explanation.
All i'm saying is if you instead bump up the eq on the bass guitar channel, there is no difference between using aux fed or matrix fed subs and the feed to a broadcast mix will be affected as well.
You are correct :)
The problem I'm addressing is an issue where people use the aux send basically as a low shelf control. That said, if everything is going to the aux at the same level, then you are absolutely correct and there should be no sonic difference :)
-Chad
I have a question we just switched to the X32 with two S 16 I am having trouble getting the signal to come out of the speakers what part in the routing am I missing 😳
There isn’t really any info to go off of here. It would probably be quicker to email me a copy of your scene at TechTuesday@AscensionWorship.com
If you catch me at a slow moment, I’ll take a look and see what’s going on :)
-Chad
Well, I am kinda on the Splitside.
1. Is totally valid. It is much easier without aux fed buss. 4 Also kinda plays into that.
For 2: is that one Bus really that much? Especially on the x32, where you have a dedicated Bus for subs. What else are you going to use that for? For 3:
No! Unfortunately, that is not how low cuts work. Just try muting all the Channels, you'd usually put un a Sub Bus. Then listen to what is on your Sub. Channel. There is still a lot of rumble, and shit. So if you can do it, does make a lot of sense.
In regards to other purposes for the M/C bus, because it can only be a post-fade send, I actually use it as one of my reverb sends. I use 3 FX busses. By moving one of them to the M/C bus, I’m not using an even number of buses for FX in my 16 “regular” busses. Because of the way the DSP works on the X32, this makes it easier to have other stereo Bus configurations, compared to having an odd number of busses for FX.
I hope that made sense. I’m very tired right now haha.
@@AWTechTuesday Interesting Idea with that reverb on M/C. That way you also have it easily accessible at all times. Good Idea!
can you explain the matrix fed sub? right now we just have 2 loud speaker and i am wondering if do we really need a subwoofer. Im new to all this mixing and digital mixing using xr18 but I am excited to get our church at least up and running but again we do not have sub at the moment. ty
If you have bass guitar, kick drum, or anything else that requires a lot of low end, adding a sub will give you a fuller sound and ease up how much you’re pushing your main speakers. Depending on the speakers you have, they can probably handle some of that low end energy but they will generally operate more efficiently if you can delegate those frequencies to the sub instead.
You can see a quick demonstration of this here - m.ruclips.net/video/pzDcHUSYB_A/видео.html
Hope that helps :)
-Chad
Hi, I don't really understand the difference between a Group-Fed Sub vs Matrix-Fed Sub vs Aux-Fed Sub. I've watched a handful of other videos including some of yours. I have an X32, and Currently what we do is old school L/R into a crossover then into the Sub Amps. We did a show this weekend with an already hired sound guy (rare for us) instead of our usual stuff, and he said the only thing in his subs were Kick, Floor Tom, and Bass Guitar, and it sounded amazing. Low end was super punchy and thick but didn't step on the vocals. I'd like to replicate that, because our Subs are a little bit lacking and I'd like to push them as far as I can by removing all excess low-end information into my subs and get the maximum mileage out of them, so to speak, before deciding to lug more gear around. But from what I've read so far it seems like there's multiple ways to achieve this, I just don't understand how they're all that different. I'm leaning toward the Aux-Fed approach since we do record, but it's all multi-track and Pre EQ, and then mixed at home after the fact, but I'm open to something else if it makes more sense for us.
The term ‘matrix’ always gets me. What does it mean? I get auxiliary, I get mains and mono cue, but what is matrix?
I'm not certain where it comes from but I like to describe a Matrix as being a "mix of mixes". I typically use it as a means of processing my Main LR mix for use with different speakers but it can also be used to blend together different mixes (like if you wanted to feed more drums to some speakers than others on top of your main mix).
But I generally use it as a final pitstop before hitting the intended speaker(s). This allows me to add filters, EQ, or compression as needed to one set of speakers without affecting the others.
I hope that clears things up a little.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
-Chad
@@AWTechTuesday So couldn't it be considered 'auxiliaries' too? thanks for the reply.
It comes from the electronics world where a matrix is a group of things (very loosely translated). An aux gets individual channels, a matrix combines auxes/mixes, so I think of it as a step above an aux, so not generally also an Auxillary.
@@kc9tae So, in essence, you are saying that matrix mixes are copies of the main L&R used to send the L&R to different places like other speakers or for streaming online etc??
Snysh they can do that, they also can blend different groups/auxes/mixes together. Let’s say you wanted to control the level of speaking mics, vocal mics and instruments going to a recording. You could use a matrix to mix groups (or post fader auxes) together for that recording. We did this for our CD’s for folks that were shutins so the vocals were more prevalent, backed the instrumentals down a bit and brought the speaking mics up so you weren’t playing the “volume game” when listening to it.
Why not just use a drive rack? Like dbx 360
There are times when I prefer that but I generally like to have the control at the mixer for easier access. Just depends on the situation and budget :)
-Chad
For sure budget plays a large roll.
Chad, are you familiar with the XAir12? It has only 2 analog Aux. But the software gives you a few more that look like they can feed the LR. Could using one of the virtual aux be the same as using your matrix-fed sub process?
Hey Andy! It's been a while since I've used one of those. If I remember correctly, one way to achieve the same result is to send every channel to the aux at the same level (likely 0.0 or maybe something like -6 for a little headroom) and then treat that aux as you would a matrix with a low pass filter and level it out to your mains. Don't forget to high pass the mains as well.
Let me know how that works for ya.
-Chad
@@AWTechTuesday I experimented with that today. Seemed to work. Well enough. It would be nice if Behringer would allow you to link that last bus to LR, like Mono is on the X32.
is this possible matrix on midas mr18 ? sorry im just a noob
Unfortunately, no. Closest thing you can do on that mixer is to set up a post-fade bus, send every channel at a level of 0.0 and use the bus master as a master volume for your subs.
I hope that all made sense :)
-Chad
We are switching to a M32 from a GL2400. We have passive subs, and powered tops. We are currently using a Drive Rack with the 2400. Should I just keep the Drive Rack, or use a matrix?
If you have the outputs available, I’d go with matrices on the M32 so you can have all your processing in one place. I’d do a DriveRack if you have multiple groups using the mixer (for example a Boy Scout group that needs to use the mixer from time to time).
-Chad
@@AWTechTuesday ok thanks.
@@AWTechTuesday do you have, or know of a video that breaks that process down for noobs? I've been analog all my life, and just catching up with the times. We never used the matrix on the A&H.
@@calebrabion as a matter of fact, I do :) haha. Here’s one of my favorites that does that. Hope it helps :)
m.ruclips.net/video/pzDcHUSYB_A/видео.html
-Chad
@@AWTechTuesday sweet
Good stuff bro!
Thanks wickety wickety Warren!
Haha. It's late and I should probably go to bed :)
-Chad
My church has an analog board and is probably going to replace it in the near future. I do the media and am new to some of this. I had just heard of using Aux Fed Subs and was feeling a bit overwhelmed at one more thing to have to learn. Not having to really worry about this will be a big help.
Although I get the point of using matrices for FOH with arrays and subs,, using them for streaming sounds just too weird for me (no pun intended).
Due to acoustics, amps on stage, drums bleeding on stage and etc, the mix will be different. Mixing the Stream on an Aux is just so easy I really can't see the benefits of doing other way.
I agree but for some churches, matrices are an easier option :)
Either way, the point of the video is the same - mixing subs on an aux can adversely affect the individual EQs on channels that can be heard on a stream mix (either through a matrix or a separate mix channel).
Thanks for watching and commenting, Andre!
-Chad
Don't care for aux feed subs
If you don’t boost a source beyond nominal all of the destination will sound the same. You are unnecessarily creating the very problem you are using as the argument against AUX fed subs. Why? Post fader AUX fed subs at nominal achieve a much better result for all.
BOOM!
Alrighty then.....
Which one is secular? No matter. I'm an atheist and this was helpful.
Even if you were doing aux fed subs back in the day with you should have been used a crossover to hfp and lpf the signal fed to the subs. You should still be doing it. No reason to send 200hz to the subs.
With digigal boards you should still be able to send that aux to other feeds (live stream, etc)
so the in ears mix is gonna change when the sound guy makes changes on foh mix?
It depends on what console you're using and your tap points (if your mixer can adjust those). Usually, your EQ and compression will affect the ears, but the fader should not.
Personally, I work on a variety of mixers so I try to use the same mixing philosophy despite which console I am on that day :)
I hope that clears things up. Let me know if you have any more questions.
-Chad
Any of my techs that use the Mono send (X32) to increase bass on a channel will get their hand slapped the first time. The second time they lose a finger. j/k Seriously though, I EQ the room with the Main (LR) and Mono (Sub) feeds at unity. When I train, I just say, "Don't ever touch this section of the board." I'll go into further detail for those that are interested in the why. All sound shaping is done with the EQ and Dynamics sections where it belongs.
You're fighting against the X32 tide, if you don't like low-end hype why use a board that has it built-in? Aux-fed sub is a bread-and-butter DJ technique, which is where the X32 rules.
@@lishlash3749 I'm sorry, your reply confuses me. I do use the aux-fed sub.
Using the a channel's Mono send to increase bass (via subwoofer) is what "aux-fed sub" refers to. In practice, the Mono bus is Behringer's designated subwoofer channel.
You apparently don’t work rap or EDM shows or don’t work in rooms that do not have ideal treatment- there are many instances where an aux fed subs are still relevant.
I've been using LCR mixers for years.
I've always put my subs on the "C" channel
Better than aux fed.
To anyone reading the comments: Aux fed subs is a trend that unfortunately has become common practice. If you are having issues with low frequencies entering the sub-cabinets (that shouldn't be there), you do not have your console (or xover) setup correctly. I have never used aux-fed subs... and have never had issues with "stray" bass frequencies. As well, aux-fed subs have certain "sound" to them, and many times (not all) it's not good.
Thank you Robert. For example, high hat doesn't wind up in the subs because 1) you filter the hi hat channel appropriately and 2) your crossover filters audio for your subs appropriately. Two layers of filter that prevent "stray" audio.
1) ease of use is invalid. You will be forced to eq the crap out of your individual channels.
This will reduce the quality of your in ear mixes as well.
2) lack of resources is not a choice its a limitation
Hey Ishaan!
Thanks for watching and commenting! Generally, when it comes to channel EQ and its affect on the in-ears, I have found the reality to be the opposite of your assumption here but that completely depends on how well the PA has been tuned for the room. If the PA has been tuned poorly (or not at all) you are absolutely correct -that would result in unnecessary or excessive EQ changes and those changes would not be favorable to in-ear mixes, broadcast, lobby, etc. However, if your room is tuned well, those changes can actually be favorable to those mixes.
Case in point - imagine a volunteer working with an acoustic guitar that is being plugged in for the first time. In this example, the acoustic is picking up a ton of rumble around 80hz and below. The volunteer isn’t hearing that rumble in the house because the acoustic is not routed to the subs but that rumble is muddying up the in-ears and the livestream mix.
Alternatively, in a matrix situation (with a well tuned PA), the acoustic would be in the subs, therefore the volunteer would be able to hear the rumble (hopefully haha). Now, if the volunteer applies a proper HPF, the acoustic will now clear up in the room, ears, and online all at the same time.
I hope that clears things up further. Thanks again for watching and commenting!
-Chad
@@AWTechTuesday
Assumptions are based on fiction. I regularly have been mixing acts with upto 40 IEMs since over 15yrs.
- assumption is to think that the room will always be tuned.
- assumption is to think 80hz is where it will always boom.
In this dynamic environment not having sub on an aux is an absolute no no for me.
Cool tip:
On an average it takes me less than 20mins to align the subs to the main using a simple impulse response on smart (if its a small gig)
Infact I prefer stereo aux for subs.
Depending on a system’s engineer is not gonna save your job. And asking an artist to put a hpf is a bad move or lets just say its the last resort.
Gotta make it a seamless experience for the artist and the venue.
This isn’t very good advice.
If you can’t say anything nice... :)