The irony of some dude saying “he’s white and grew up in England, of course he was racist” being a racist is evil, therefore the dude is calling a whole race of people inherently evil, doing the exact thing he is baselessly accusing Tolkien of…
One thing I learned while helping people proof read their essays/papers at school is that there are actually people who will write FAR below their education level or age but believe they’re the second coming of Shakespeare. I imagine the writers of this show are those people that somehow failed upwards.
9:32 Lord of the Rings orcs: kills one of their own, immediately yells "meats back on the menu, boys!" whole crowd rushes in to dismember their dead comrade in arms and eat him raw. Rings of Power orcs: omg I just wanna live in peace and raise my lil orclings, you warmonger!
@@alejbr4 Goblins are orcs, in Middle Earth. There are many tribes of orcs, those living in the Misty Mountains are often referred to as "goblins" as they are "shorter of stature and crooked of limb", but they are orcs none the less.
@@elenoe8 And almost every named orc in the books threatens or kills another orc at least once. So, no being one of their own wouldn't make them hesitate either way.
RoP showrunners: Actually, orcs aren't inherently evil, they are just misunderstood. 😢 Also RoP showrunners: People criticizing our work are literally evil! 🤬
I heard that Tolkien was actually disturbed by the idea of orcs being representative of people at all and I heard that he wrote them to embody the dehumanization that went on during WWI, though this is hearsay so do not blindly take my word for it.
I doubt it. Tolkien notoriously hated allegories to real-world events. He claimed any allegory people saw in his works were purely the readers' own interpretation and was not intended. That's why he was so critical of his friend CS Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, which is just a big blob of Christian allegories.
In 1944 he wrote to his son Christopher, who was having a tough time training with the Royal Air Force, "you are a hobbit among the Urukhai." He also wrote that, while "we" thought of ourselves as the "good" side in the war, there were Orcs on "our" side as well. So yeah, his anti-orc sentiments could apply equally to the English and their allies. It wasn't particularly to do with war, only that war brought people from sheltered backgrounds (like himself in WW1) into contact with the lowlifes.
Orcs are supposed to be a force of corrupted nature. They literally grow in vats of bubbly, gooey poo in the movies. The writers just keep showing how little they actually know about the lore.
Bet comment by Fenris5932 - “So the way I always read orcs after reading Lot and reading their origins of the Silmarillion is that the orcs are a sad existence but you don't necessarily need to feel bad for them and you definitely should kill them. They were made by Morgoth to be slaves and killers. The only thing resembling joy they feel comes from conquest and cruelty and whenever Sauron or Morgoth are around, they basically become drones that have no way to resist their wills. There is a sadness in a creature that not only doesn't have control of its own mind, but one that has no ability to feel content and happy or make friends or fall in love. If I remember correctly, they refer to the creation of the orcs as chiefest of Morgoth's cruelties. Ruining not only the lives of the original set of orcs he made (potentially from elves, potentially from something else), but every generation that comes after. At least animals feel good when they eat and reproduce and are safe in their nests. Orcs don’t even get that.”
Isn't that what Legolas and Gimli were all about? Two peoples from different races, who were dealing with generational hatred and preconceived notions who eventually realize that suff is all bullshit and become friends, wasn't that a major plotline in the books?"
It is, though it's more of an estrangement. With a few exceptions, Elves and Dwarves have never really been close friends. They did trade, or coexisted, or even were allies out of shared interests or necessity. But mostly they lived separate and sometimes they fought. Two major exceptions are the Elves of Eregion and the Dwarves of Khazad-dum, and Legolas and Gimli. I must also mention that the Elves of Mirkwood are different from the other Elves. And Oropher, the founder of the Woodland Realm and father of Thranduil, was from Doriath, which was sacked in the First Age by the Dwarves of Nogrod; he and the other Elves from Doriath did not forget that. I don't know when exactly Thranduil was born, but he might have witnessed the sack; otherwise his father would have told him of it.
So if orcs have families like we do, do they also have orc nurseries and primary schools? I wonder what classes their kids have to go to. Warg Riding? Manflesh Cooking? Elf Stabbing? How Not to Brush Your Teeth? C’mon Rings of Power, you started this and I want to know more about orc society. In what other ways are they *so* much like us?
@@MrDe4dGuy34 Do you think that an army that doesn't cooperate together is a full force? It's not a good show, but try not to diminish Tolkien with your own ignorance that is as subtle as Home and Gardens just outside of Mordor.
They probably teach them to sing like those songs: "Fifteen birds in five fir-trees, Their feathers were fanned in a fiery breeze. What funny little birds - they had no wings. Oh, what shall we do with the funny little things? Oh, what shall we do with the funny little things? Roast them alive or stew 'em in a pot! Fry them, boil them, eat them hot? Bake 'em! Toast 'em! Fry 'em! Roast 'em Till beards blaze and eyes glaze; Till hair swells and skins crack, Fat melts and bones black In cinders lie beneath the sky! So the Dwarves shall die! (Ha ha ha...) Fifteen birds in five fir-trees, Their feathers were fanned in a fiery breeze. What funny little birds - they had no wings. Oh, what shall we do with the funny little things? Oh, what shall we do with the funny little things?" :)
Oh shit. That actually makes sense lol. Look there's nothing wrong with understanding a character's backstory. Remember Jason? I think it's Jason. Wait... Mike Meyers. One of them two drowned and had mommy issues. It was sad, but no one is gonna all of a sudden be like "Show Jason, fall in love with a woman and he has a baby" and pretend that makes up for the smorgasbord of people he massacred.
@@Alteoriit's like people don't realize that we can understand why someone does bad things, and still think they shouldn't do bad things. Then these same individuals turn around and claim *they* are the ones with a complex worldview. Because they sympathize with villains and murderers, whereas the rest of us do not support villainy or murder even if the villains and murderers have families or aren't pure undiluted evil. Edited to add: you nailed it! There's a very fine line between that and hybristophilia.
@@joywagner979to be fair there have been plenty of times with people have sympathy for the villain despite all the awful things they do for example remember Omni man from invincible despite all the terrible things he done at the end of the season 1 people still feel sorry for the guy even willing to make excuses for him there is also that female viltrumite Anissa despite what she did to Mark layer in the comics people are still more sympathetic towards her Dean Amber
@@animezilla4486 yeah, I know, and have personally felt a lot of sympathy for villains before -- or at least understood why they did what they did. I just don't think we should be sympathizing with the villain over the hero. When a show overwhelmingly pushes its audience in that direction, the show has done something wrong.
"Adolf". A powerful story of a misunderstood artist whose dream was to unite his people, only to have his aspirations shattered by the forces of white oppression.
Oh they already do that lol It’s like they want us to think every other country is this beautiful innocent paradise and America is so evil. Wonder why they all moving here then.
Talion is going to be cancelled into Morgoth’s hole once the Orc Ally Association finds out he’s been bullying Uruks and Ologs constantly, poor ranger’s reputation is doomed.
Got one question. If you can create beings for war. Why would you want them to have cares other than facilitating war? Procreation isn't a defense. The person can create the beings. They don't need procreation abilities. They're cannibals so that they can eat their enemies, and eat fallen fighters. What use is love and mating?
Don´t know about the relation to the world of LOTR but if you "design" creatures as a weapon - of course it might be beneficial to create them with reproductive capabilities. A small group trapped behind enemy lines could multiply in a short amount of time and soon enough the enemy gets attacked from behind - or they could attack vulnerable supply lines behind the front lines. Just to say - there is utility in that.
Yeah. The original orcs were made by melkor capturing and corrupting a group of elves to make his army. And the ent tree beard believed that trolls are made to ve a mockery of ents as orcs are a mockery to elves
Orcs have at least 3, maybe 4 origins - from what I understand, even Tolkien himself wasn't concrete on this information. Of them all, *none* of them ever mention sexual reproduction in any form. The one way we've seen them made - sort of - was in one of the films, wherein a Uruk-Hai (which I think is meant to be an Orc-Man hybrid) essentially spawns out of the earth, fully-grown and completely subservient to Saruman. It could understand basic orders, and its sole desire was to serve and kill whoever or whatever got in its way. the best way to explain this to those who don't understand what I'm saying: they could spawn from the ground like the Gems from Steven Universe The only other ways that I know of, which are mentioned in the books, are that the Orcs were elves at one point. These elves became the Orcs in three ways: The power of Morgoth & or Sauron corrupted them, they were captured and corrupted using their magics, or they were tortured to the point that they then became Orcs. Either way, they were essentially good elves turned bad orcs. Now, I'm not going to go on some long-winded rant hereon after, stating my issues. Simply put: an Orc family is nonsensical, and goes against canon; the people who thought of this don't know Tolkien.
In the Silmarillon, orcs are said to multiply after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar, hence sexual reproduction. Pure creations of Morgoth can't reproduce (like Dragons). Also, Bolg is the son of Azog.
He does say they reproduced in the manner of Elves and Men, which is generally accepted as meaning they're normal lifeforms capable of sexual reproduction, plus, the word breeds is often used to reference different sorts of Orcs, which implies that they are like dogs, different strains bred intentionally for various functions, most notably the Uruk-Hai, who were bred from a mixture of humans and orcs (Portrayed as dirt coccoons in the films because coccoons aren't as yucky as orcs and humans having sex.), which must've been done somehow, possibly sexually.
... what? In Tolkien's letters he writes "there must be orc women. They are not seen for orcs are only ever seen in war.". In "Unfinished Tales", he writes about how Saruman breeds men and orcs, so clearly, orcs can breed as men do. The "spawning out of the ground" was made up by Peter Jackson because the films are PG13 and he did not want to show Saruman breeding men and orcs (in LotR, Treebeard even speculates that Uruk Hai are orcs bred with men). It's fairly obvious that orcs breed just as men and elves do and the proof is in the professor's official and unofficial writing. As for families? We can only speculate. Orcs are creatures of hate, cursed by dark sorcery and molded by cruelty and degenerate behavior (such as cannibalism). I doubt orcs are the kind and nurturing type. Eru would probably be the only being in Middle Earth who could free the orcs from the evil magic that compels them; to give them even a tiny chance of redemption or goodness.
@TheRealW.S.Foster "Some people think that there are no Dwarven women, and that dwarves just spring up out of holes in the ground."- Gimli Why does there have to be mention of orc sex for you to believe it? The point is, "the canon" states that orcs were not born of malice but were tortured in the void. Elves that were subjected to chaos and brutal twisting of their mind, body, and soul. They are creatures like any other. They eat, they sleep, they breathe, they screw. It's really not hard to understand if you actually read "the canon." Melkor did not MAKE orcs-- Periodt.
Probably greatest thing to tell all modern writers in my opinion would be, “Humanization/Empathy isn’t the only way to add complexity to your villains.” Like add layers to their evil, orcs who want to follow Morgoth and be pure chaotic destructive evil verses orcs that want to follow Sauron as he tries to be more lawful evil. Orcs who don’t think its appropriate orcs should try and live like the other children of Eru verses orcs that do want to build something (but that something can still be terrible). Thanos was evil yet understandable thats why we like him. They didn’t (thankfully) make Thanos the family man who is just trying to kill half the universe to bring back his wife or something. There are so many ways to add layers to the orcs beyond “look they have families just like you do.”
Well for me one of the best ones to make a good villain is to always remember that a villain will do whatever it takes to get what they want. A hero is often constricted by his/her morals and it's the one of the few inbuilt advantages villains have over any hero. So a villain can do good things for his ultimate goal of lets say world domination, maybe he even thinks that him or her being in control is for the best. Hell Sauron probably did things like that, he would have likely allied himself with some good guys during the second age or before and playing himself off as some good guy but in the end he would just be using that person or people as a chess piece(s) to maybe destabilise a certain area, make it weaker and easier to control or something like that. A villain can still be evil while doing arguably good things.
I look at the shark in Jaws and I say to myself, "this shark isn't evil, it's just being a shark." But I also understand why the people on the island just can't let a shark swim around and eat their children.
A classic conflict between villains is the total destruction vs. conquest conflict. You could have orcs that just want to raze the land and do as much damage as possible, then orcs who want to conquer and rule over the land. Both are evil, one is arguably _less_ evil, and you can explore the unique motivations of both. Also it's not even necessary to give them depth, there is nothing wrong with "force of pure evil" villains, in the same way a natural disaster has no motivations a force of pure evil simply does evil things, because it's less of a character and more just a story element.
@@AkuTenshiiZero in Tolkien we do have various such motivations among the Orcs! In The Hobbit Bolg of the North, son of Azog, is the leader and chieftain of the Goblins/Orcs of Mount Gundabad who unites the tribes of Misty Mountains because they 'revoled now to win dominion of the north' and wanted a piece of treasure of Smaug for themselves :)....there are various factions and groups of orcs in Lotr too, some of the 'northerners' so Orcs of the Misty Mountains: "To Pippin's surprise he found that ... many of the Orcs were using ordinary language. Apparently the members of two or three quite different tribes were present, and they could not understand one another's orc-speech. There was an angry debate concerning what they were to do now: which way they were to take and what should be done with the prisoners. 'There's no time to kill them properly,' said one. ... 'That can't be helped,' said another. 'But why not kill them quick? ...They're a cursed nuisance, and we're in a hurry.' ... 'Orders.' said a third voice in a deep growl. 'Kill all but NOT the Halfings; they are to be brought back ALIVE as quickly as possible. That's my orders.' ... 'Why alive? Do they give good sport?' 'No! I heard that one of them has got something, something that's wanted for the War, some elvish plot or other. Anyway they'll both be questioned.' '... Why don't we search them and find out? We might find something that we could use ourselves.' 'That is a very interesting remark,' sneered a voice, softer than the others but more evil. 'I may have to report that. The prisoners are NOT to be searched or plundered: those are my orders.' 'And mine too,' said the deep voice. 'Alive and as captured; no spoiling. That's my orders.' 'Not our orders!' said one of the earlier voices. 'We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.' 'Then you can wish again,' said the growling voice. 'I am Uglúk. I command. I return to Isengard by the shortest road.' 'Is Saruman the master or the Great Eye?' said the evil voice. 'We should go back at once to Lugbúrz.' ..." Straight from the book!
RIGHT!!!!!!! EXACTLY!!!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂 Like you're hurting, we get it, but setting that precedent for people to go up and slap comedians, I mean monarchs, seems pretty stupid
@@Alteori No royal is actually treated like a royal in the Rings of Power. They seem to be treated much like modern day politicians - people with position and power but ultimately, just ones of us. In Tolkien's works the concept of hierarchy, bloodline and legitimacy is very important. I get it, not everyone shares that view of monarchy but it's an important theme in Silmarilion and royals are always majestic. Here, we have Elrond mocking Gil-galad behind his back in Season 1, using his first name when talking about him, miners bullying prince Durin, a guy touching Disa like she was his pal, Miriel is slapped in front of the whole court. Yeah, beside Miriel and Durin, those are just little things and gestures but it's jarring after reading about all those elven kingdoms in Silmarilion, and Numenor in Akallabeth.
I wake up in the middle of Morogth, And Sauron says "Go forth and execute my wrath", Oh dark lord dear you'll always be number one, But orcs just wanna have fun, Ooohh, orcs just wanna have fun.
@fusionspace175 Yea, but your plot hole assumes he created them. He tortured elven physical body and souls in the void since he could not make anything from his own will because only the flame of ìluvatar could create life. These orcs had personality, shared emotion, and showed the inescapable symptoms of malicious manipulation. This show poorly executed Tolkien's actual thoughts on the orcs, but I'd be as so bold as to say you really don't know much more. Orcs have structure or they wouldn't survive. Do you even Age of Empires, bro?
This is why more and more people are hating identity politics we can no longer create good story because it might offend someone or see things that are not there
To get back off topic a little, my favorite spider movie “ Eight Legged Freaks” it’s like Gremlins but spiders, it’s more of a comedy. If you haven’t seen it, it’s worth a watch.
@@sianais me too, I watch it about four times a year. Start of Summer, End of Summer, Beginning of Fall and one of many for my two weeks of “Halloween” movies 😂😅
@@wekurtz72 absolutely like, either that forest has become dangerous after the volcanoe which is barely enough time to become infamous, or it was dangerous before, but then the frigging volcano would habe killed everything inside that forest
@@columbien10 If the spiders are like the Murkwood spiders... they're not mundane beings. And that one acts REALLY smart. BUT,... how long have they been here?
@@marhawkman303 Shelob apparently chose Mordor as her home at the beginning of Second Age or so...she definitely must have fled Beleriand after War of Wrath destroyed that portion of the continent and it was cracked and ultimately flooded by the sea....the battle of the divine beings often have such side effects in Tolkien's works hehe :),...anyway Shelob at this point I think she would have been already many hundreds years old....she was said to be "the last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world" but we don't know much specifics about her early life...we know she MUST have been born in Ered Gorgoroth, where her siblings were haunting the Nan Dungortheb Valley of Dreadful Death...and her siblings were facing legendary hero Beren. Shelob is born of the Ungoliant so in a way she is certainly inheriting part of her powers...but would not be as powerful as her mother Ungoliant was so powerful she defied Morgoth...Shelob was very intelligent in book, she was also cruel and loved playing with her food, she was also epitome of selfishness, she only ever cared about herself...so Shelob is more like 'demonic entity' except she was born not like a spirit assuming physical shape (here the video games made a mess :) the Shadow of War sequel to Shadow of Mordor had Shelob being shapeshifted hahah...you probably heard the meme of 'stupid sexy Shelob' because that game porrayed her in humanoid form of a woman hahah...book lore Shelob would no doubt have no shapeshifting since she was BORN in spider form but she is definitely something more than simply giant arachnid...she is powerful entity, Shelob in books seems to possess also some mental powers, she made a deal with Gollum and even apparently influenced his mind: "Gollum had beheld her, Sméagol who pried into all dark holes, and in past days he had bowed and worshipped her, and the darkness of her evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret. And he had promised to bring her food. But her lust was not his lust. Little she knew of or cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand, who only desired death for all others, mind and body, and for herself a glut of life, alone, swollen till the mountains could no longer hold her up and the darkness could not contain her." The Two Towers, LoTR Book 4, Ch 9, Shelob's Lair Shelob due to her age would be huge already, giant spiders of Mirkwood were her 'lesser broods'. She was in Mordor apparently before building of Barad-dur....which started around year 1000 S.A. So at this stage she would be well over 1000 years plus few centuries possibly and so I think she would be alrady much larger than the show tries to depict her (the show in general has trouble with placement in time :) that's because they screw up with compressing the timeline :)). ""There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Lúthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness...."
@@fantasywind3923 yeah, it's an aspect of the world Tolkien left vague, but definitely something... interesting. I was actually thinking this would be more like an encounter with one of Shelob's spawn, and not Shelob herself. 'cause the Mirkwood spiders aren't exactly harmless, and quite smart.
5:45 - Real historical royal palaces (at least in the Asian world) would never allow a citizen to get this close to a monarch, stop 10-20 steps back and kneel before you speak to any monarch. Getting close enough to slap a Queen? What royal system is this?
I think of the Orcs like Klingons closer to STO where they were brutal, warlike and cunning. Tolkien himself refused to call the orcs irredeamable. Just their enjoyment for brutality and cruelty cranked up like a roid raging sadist. Doesn't mean they can't form bonds. In theory they could be restored a bit from the corruption kinda like domesticating I guess. kinda evil thing to do in a way as well but ah well. I believe that Orc would love his mate and child he'd just be stoked for combat just as much.
Not all villains need to sympathetic for the sake of just being misunderstood. That sometimes gets executed as poor, shitty, and lazy writing. Fighting video games constantly do this method to keep milking their stories with sequels. Antagonists are most likely to go the extra mile for malevolence thus being labeled as irredeemable monsters.
For some reason, “modern” western writers have this obsession that the only way to add “depth” to characters is to make them “ambiguous,” to put them in a moral gray area. That the dichotomy of a clear division between good and evil is “too childish.” Which is prohibitively stupid. All of Zoroastrianism is built on the dichotomy of good and evil. You think you're smarter than the people who created Zoroastrianism? Pfft sure.
They've taken monsters, bred and trained for the sole purpose of raising war and devastating the peoples of Middle Earth, and tried to get sympathy for them. This would be the equivalent of trying to hunanize the Reapers from Mass Effect, or the Darkspawn from Dragon Age, or the White Walkers from Game of Thrones. This is such an ass backwards approach to making a sympathetic villain, that i have to wonder how this was allowed to make it on screen.
In the Numernor of Tolkien, that woman that struck the Queen Regent (putting aside she would have never been allowed so close) would have been dead before her hand stopped moving. Remember, the men of Numenor were so powerful, able to field such a military might, that when they went to Middle Earth to challenge Sauron's rule, Sauron, who had the One Ring... surrendered. With regard to Orcs, the thing to bear in mind is less the biology of them, and more their role in the narrative. Orcs are Stormtroopers. Not in the elite sense, but in the sense that they are not to be understood as individuals, but a monolithic fighting force in thrall to the forces of evil. The great and terrible irony of it is that what RoP has done is make Orcs into "Brown People." Which is far more racist than anything Tolkien wrote, although it is in keeping with the video essay on the Extra Credits channel. Yes, Extra Credits did a video essay on how racist Orcs being evil is, and all it really showed was how repulsively evil Tolkien's critics actually were.
The Spider is supposed to be Shelob, wich means that Ungoliant must still be around. Ungoliant is a Being of Darkness and Hunger that even intimidatet Melkor at the height of her Power. Which means that Sauron being there is in no way of relevance with a Threat of that size around.
Orcs are not "living beings" in the full sense of the word. Any life in Arda is possible only with the permission of Eru Iluvatar. For example, the dwarves were not created by Eru, they were created by one of the Valar. But Eru Iluvatar gave them "light", that is, allowed them to become "alive." If he didn't, they looked like robots. An artificial, pseudo-life form. Orcs were created by Melkor (one of the Valar too), their exact origins are unknown. There are several versions, according to one of them they are distorted elves. But their origin is not really important, it is important that they do not have the Light of Eru. Therefore, they are not alive in the full sense of the word. Melkor just wanted to create his things, to create his “creation”, which he was not given permission to do. So once in Arda, he tried again and again to create “his” creations, be they orcs or dragons. And also tried to mess up what others had made. For example, he corrupted humans almost as soon as they appeared in Arda. Therefore, the origins of the Orcs are not that important. What is important is that in the world of the Lord of the Rings, no complete race can be created without the permission of Eru Illuvatar.
There are so many missed opportunities in this show it's criminal think how much more impactfuk that scene where the queen was slapped would have been if the guards had stopped the woman and was dragging her out of the throne room and the queen commands them to hold, and shows her compassion by telling the guards to let the woman go, and we have the scene where they embrace...that would have been so much better imo.
Any leader THAT weak would had been eaten alive by literally anyone. If you think of yourself like a mother you'll be ripped apart in the real world, that's why most females make terrible leaders, then there's the other half which overcompensate which are even worse .
@@AlteoriSorry I have to correct you on 1 major point that you'd mentioned. Tis the Sindarin and Silvan Elves (Legolas et al) that have a feud with the Dwarves. The Noldor (raven/dark haired Elves) like Celebrimbor and Galadriel have no problems with Dwarves hence the successful trade and friendship between Eregion and Khazad-dum in the 2nd Age between the Noldor Elves and the Dwarves. Hope that helps.
In the books Gimli and Legolas are actually really close starting in Lothlórien. Gimli rides on the same horse. Legolas promises to visit a cave Gimli loves even though he doesn't like caves. Also, in Lothlórien in the books the elves they first meet guarding the city want to blindfold Gimli or they won't lead them to the city. Aragorn makes them blindfold the whole party instead because of the unfairness. Galadriel upon learning of the blindfolding puts a stop to it. The whole point is friendship and overcoming prejudice! The hero is a hobbit. Someone so small and to many insignificant. Though the party members and even kings treat them all well even before the happy ending. How can you read this series and claim RACIST. SMH
I don't understand why the wrote this show to have the rings forged in the wrong order. Nine for men, seven for the dwarves. Those are what the dark lord had a hand in creating. The three for the elves were created without the dark lord's hand, and so was free from his corruption. Point is, the three rings were forged last, without the dark lord's influence, or corruption. It messed with his plan to bind the rings to his secret master ring.
It is funny because the Acolyte is one the most racist , and bigot show ever all of the black characters are murderers sociopath, and they have no dad except for one guy but they make him a joke. The lesbians are being portray as a cult that use dark magic.
My daughter loved that movie cause it made her feel powerful and confident. It was fun to hear her sing the song and yell the words "get off of my back" like an anthem. It was funny. I dunno what she was rebelling against but hey it was a outlet for her feelings at the time.
@@turkoositerapsidi It isn't the fault of a jaguar that they're carnivores and need meat to survive. It isn't the fault of Hornets that they prey on bees. No one blames the dog for being loyal and protecting its owner. It's the nature of the thing. Daleks are made the way they are in the lore. While it's no fault of their own, it's by design. It's natural for them to hate and kill. There is no misunderstanding. 仕方ない。
Just for context : - Authors taking inspirations from people / historical events to portray they world don't translate to racism. The Orcs being, partly, inspired by the mongolian hords doesn't mean "asian people" bad, it mrans that the Orcs have the same level of conquering power as the mongols. - Also, the industrialized Orcs are more comparable to 1914 Germany during WWI, and the brutality of a conflict Tolien actually fought in... Elfs, Dwarfs and Humans in need to ally literally is what happenend during the WORLD war.
I meant to comment this on the last video, but Tolkien specifically wrote LOTR because he was so sad that Europe’s mythos was lost/destroyed. This is supposed to be Europe long ago so of course the characters are mainly white!
I think Tolkien's initial conception of orcs were closer to golems sculpted from the earth and were treated as automata for Melkor's will (this should sound familiar if you change orcs to dwarves and Melkor to Aule and a scene from on of the Jackson films). It kind of makes them similar to the Darkspawn from Dragon Age. Tolkien later changed this to fit the idea that evil cannot create but can only corrupt but not create. Though he never settled on whether orcs were corrupted men or elves. Tolkien did realize the problem of having an entire race that have souls and free will but were also treated as unrepentant, irredeemable monsters but couldn't quite figure out how to solve that problem. But I don't really have much of a problem with using minions in fiction. Storm troopers from Star Wars, the Chitauri in the Avengers, Nazis in Indiana Jones.
Back then, 'Germans', 'English' and 'French' etc really were seen as different 'races'. A Brit could be racist against a Frenchman, but also an Englishman against a Scotsman etc even though it sounds ridiculous now. This 'all 'white' people' being just one 'race' is a fairly recent and very American thing, which has now spread to be the norm. It makes interpretation of older works a bit complicated when seen from atop the lofty moral pillar of modern multiculturalism. The people who are screeching about Tolkien and racism really aren't worth listening to, as they definitely don't seem capable of thinking outside their very narrow interpretation that conveniently aligns with their virtue signalling, limited life experience and clear wilful ignorance.
This "all white people are the same" is so annoying. There is no "white race". Just within Europe, their is so much ethnic variety. You have the Nordic people, the Germanic people, the Slavs, the Mediterranean people, etc. You usually can tell, just by looking at them, if a person comes from England, from Germany or from Italy.
3:33 IDK why but when I saw the dog I knew exactly what she was think and I just busted out laughing when I heard the sigh. I understand Alteori doesn't like seeing dogs die and there's an app for that but still
I think Tolkien struggled to settle on an origin for the orcs because of his Christian faith. All souls are supposed to be able to be redeemed. The orcs kind of need to be a race of pure evil, with no redeeming qualities, but it's hard to accept as a concept, for someone who worships a god meant to possess an infinite capacity for forgiveness and grace. For my own head canon, I imagine orcs to be corrupted men. I imagine the first Uruks to be men who chose to follow Morgoth willingly, men who chose darkness and hate. It was this that caused them to actually take on the orcs recognizably different appearance from the Eldar and the Edain. I imagine there _are_ orcs born, from time to time, who choose to go against the will of Morgoth and later Sauron. But I imagine these orcs are always killed for their beliefs. I like this idea, because it preserves the grace Eru Illuvatr. He would never allow the hopelessness of being "born evil". The orcs we encounter in the story are all evil, because only evil orcs survive in orc society. Indeed, only the most evil members of that society would be trusted with the important roles given to the orcs in the story.
The main inhabitants of arda were supposed men and elves (eru iluvatars children). So when aule created the dwarves that was a huge problem. Aule explained to iluvatar that he made his creation (the dwarves) so he could love and teach his craft to them. But to stay on good terms with iluvatar , aule was going to destroy what he had created. Aule raised his hammer and began to weep. The dwarves begged for their lives and iluvatar told aule to stop. Seeing that the dwarves had a will of their own he allowed them to remain. Compare to the orcs. Incrediblly violent and loyal to their masters. Morgoth made the orcs so he could have complete dominance. Orcs cannot be good because they don’t have free will like the free peoples of middle earth. Any way this is just how I view orcs in Tolkiens writings.
it is said that in the First Age the great Dwarven smith Narvi was a close friend of Celebrimbor (talking about LOTR return to moria game lore) the Elves even had their own Quarters in Khazad-Dum
Tolkien's Orcs are alledged to in the first chapter of the Silmarillion with Iluvatar's Song being slowly corrupted first by Morgoth's Theme then added by Sauron's Theme that is a more blunt Repitition hammering like industrial Hammers on the main theme, but it still prevails and the other two fade out. That lines up with the fate of the Orcs withering away after the destruction of the Ring with Morgoth being cast out of Creation into the Void and Sauron exterminated as he bound his essence into the Ring, which was destroyed. Tolkien described Orcs in his letters as an evil mainly coming into the light of day in war times with their origin being the twisted perversion of tortured Elves being made into a weapon serving Morgoth's needs. Later on the mass creation of Uruk-Hai were the Repetition Sauron and Saruman created in earth pits as an amalgam of Orcs and Dunlendings. In my opinion both Orcs and Uruk-Hai are an allegory of Tolkien about how war creates monsters out of men and humans do so willingly to create weapons of war that will never fit into society again as they are broken and with their dehumanization by deeds are lost to the world. It is shown in his work that litters of Orcs would feed on the weakest ones leaving only the stronger to live and fight for their masters, robbing, killing, raping and even cannibalizing all sentient beings on the way. There is no good left by the corruption of Morgoth and Sauron and to follow the thought of the allegory, there are Mercenaries and others who never leave a war in their heads and will kill over trivialities. For a man like Tolkien in the first World War this must have been a shocking realization that such people exist and they must have stood for the evil created by War itself as a stain on the Soul, a corruption of the Mind. I am not talking about broken Soldiers with PTSD, those were depicted very well in the Houses of Healing Chapters, I am talking about those that come out twisted beyond that, who are left with no moral bounds left. Those may still procreate, but the kids would be humans again, the only way to really gain numbers is in the way Tolkien described with the litters fighting each other and in this losing their humanity by consuming their weak brothers, or through other torturous means. So with that in Mind, making Orcs into a "real" Species with women and kids is kindly spoken - thoughtless of the Lore and the Background of the Man that wrote that Universe.
Hell in any setting where someone like a queen holds supreme power unless your s member of their family your head is coming off if you lay hands on them, hell they wouldn't have to order it the closest guard would do it on reflex
Hello Alteori. Episode 3, season 2 of Rings of Power. The Orcs in this series kinda reminds me and giving me Warcraft Orc vibes. Anyway, another great video, Alteori, I like it, see you in the next one.
The same type of people in a zombie apocalypse that would say “Zombie lives matter too” or call the Covenant from halo Victims of human patriarchy buzzwords🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️
Orcs can't reproduce on their own, because they are not children of Illuvatar, the god of Tolkien's world. Reproducing as Illuvatar's children, like humans and elves, is impossible for orcs. The best depiction of their reproduction was actually in Peter Jackson's movie, the breeding pits for the uruk-hai. Tolkien wasn't interested in nuanced sympathetic villains, he wanted moral grey area in SOME of his characters, but the villains as far as their morality goes, the villain is literal Satan leading an army of souless demons to dominate all life. It's as black and white as a conflict could ever be. There are no orc babies, orcs don't have souls, orcs aren't a race of the children of Illuvatar, they are a mockery of life bred for the sole purpose of war by Morgoth. Since Morgoth has no access to the Secret Fire / Flame Imperishable, he couldn't create anything, just corrupt what was created by god. Implying that there are orc babies and that they are capable of moral good, acts of love, it undermines the mythos entirely, it implies that Morgoth was capable of creating life.
all very interesting sir, but actually in the hobbit the ork Bolg is defined as the son of Azog and let's face it, Tolkien never gave a certain answer in his writings
They reproduce the same way humans (or Elfs) do: For the Orcs had life and multiplied in the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could Melkor ever make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalië before the Beginning: so say the wise (The Silmarillion: Chapter 3) Tolkien also commented on orc women in a 1963 letter: There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known.
If orcs are descendants of corrupted elves (or men) then, yeah... They can have kids. Azog had a son Bolg. There were also half-orcs. One was in Bree. Other iirc served Saruman.
This is wrong, as far as i know. Certainly this "mining uruk-hai" of the film was something, they pulled out their asses, without ANY source at Tolkien. YES he was vague - but on no point he ever wrote (or did he?) that they came out of f***ing cocoons. In the Hobbit, Gollum remembers to have killed (and partially eaten) a Orc-child. And in the Lord of the Rings, several lines about the Uruk-hai and other of Sarumans followers did suggest, that they were probably a mix of humans and orcs - and it sounded like breeding. Orc did have their own will and reproduce outside the command of an overlord like Morgoth, Sauron or Saruman, although under the command of them there number did swell much faster. So there are arguments for an "biological" and for an "magical" approach - eventually even both.
I'm not sure if your familiar with "Lord of the Rings" lore but Isildur was the man who kept the Ring from Alrond in the volcano in the movie. So we KNEW we wasn't dead or could die. This isn't Lord of the Rings lore J.R.R. Tolkien is turning in his grave
5 minutes in, and ive learned MORE about Spiders AND Horses, than i ever have about Rongs of Power 🤣 Also, bro, the ADHD, is on another plane of existence, holy fk i love it 😂
I cannot believe I say this, but it feels like they pulled the idea of humanizing Orcs straight out of the Eragon books. In those books, there is this race called the Urgals, who basical are an equivalent of Orcs. BUT the difference is, that the Urgals actually were controlled by evil magic to do most of the evil things they did. Later, this magic was broken and the leader of the Urgals asked the leader of the good forces to join them, which resulted in a powerful alliance between them.
Hi, I simply wanted to say thank you for pointing out the problematic portrayal of the bind queen in the way that you did. O am a blind person, so I appreciate what you said and the way that you said it. You are awesome! keep up the good work!
that slap scene was incredibly stupid even the king's/royal guard reacts faster and people are dumb enough to poke and prod a armed man because they think they can't move but i am near certain that if she tried that on them she would be dropped the second she raised her hand to them whether she was shot or struck would not matter there is absolutely no reason for any of the guards to leave a line of attack on the queen open especially if she is blind. there should have been a guard already in the way ready to intercept before the woman even approached the queen and this wasn't even accounting for her blindness that was just common sense. at the very least the guard next to her should have stepped between the two when she approached ready to act also assaulting a royal in broad daylight was good enough to justify execution hell even running her mouth would have potentially got her killed whether or not she was forgiven does not excuse the fact that she was emotionally stupid enough to strike the queen in front of several witnesses and at the very least she would be punished regardless because forgiveness is not an excuse to forgo consequence imo because you can understand why it was done but just because you understand an action does not always justify it going unpunished
Nitpicking a bit because priorities: the dude (person; guess I shouldn't assume their gender) calling Tolkien a racist is deeply unpleasant to listen to, because either an excess or lack of saliva makes their voice sound like the equivalent of a spider crawling across the back of your neck.
Honestly I couldn't stand that person either for they sounded condescending and looks like those hipster who thinks they're morally superior to the rest of us but are actually massive scumbags.
"Sting" had a very interesting premise. The effects are good. It's just the characters. They are godawfully written. You will cheer for the spider to k1ll them all off.
I remember the LotR movie orcs came out of some kind of egg sacks, like those Alien movies. I just made a confirmation in FotR, the orc came out of a "flesh sack" under dirt and mud. They were dug out and came fully grown. It was something else.
When the Orc with the nuclear family asks, "Must we go to war?" All I could think of was the song "Where There's a Whip" from the Rankin-Bass version of "Return of the King." "We don't wanna go to war today / But the lord of the lash says nay, nay, nay! / We're gonna march all day, all day, all day!" 🤣
The Problem the Showrunners have is that People like strong emotions when consuming media of any kind. We want to feel Love, Fear and yes Hate. Thats why Storys with clear evil villains just work. They should leave the Grayzone Storys for people with Talent.
16:21 What? Ok what is this guy smoking, and where can I get🤣People today, I mean.... I don't even. Huh? What🤣🤣🤣I have no words. Love you videos btw, Alteori🤘
The writers didn't read the source material so they are using ORC'S from all fantasy lore for example "War of Warcraft" which explains why the Orcs have families 🤣
19:10 "Even when he's wet, he's spanking good looking" Hahaha xD Also the Arandir "Ass first" analysis was funking hilarious! xD Cheers Alteori! :-) 25:10 - The Monkey - LOL.
The question is very simple: in Tolkien's works - regardless of the fact that in some letters or notes he may have stated that he was in doubt about the redemption or otherwise of the orcs - the servants of Morgoth and Sauron, despite hating them, are subservient to their purposes and, as long as they were directed against elves, men and dwarves, they avoided killing each other. Orcs are not capable of empathy, not even towards their own kind: two captains of Cirith Ungol, while escorting Frodo into the tower-fortress, discuss what to do once the war has been won and plan to form a band with which to raid and kill without being disturbed by their superiors (i.e., Sauron and his lieutenants). And the examples of the absolutely destructive nature of the orcs are plentiful, even in The Hobbit (where the orcs are not yet subservient to Sauron)... ...but wanting to remain solely in the context of the TV series: in the first season, there wasn't a single ogre who objected to the idea of attacking the men's village "because they too have families"; nor that we showed reluctance at the idea of being able to die and leave their wives and children alone. In this season, however, there is a case - at least for the moment - which from the way it is presented should be enough for an entire population... in both cases, it is a ploy as fake as a 3 and a half cent bill made of wood. If that's the only ogre with an ogre and a little ogre in tow, where are all the others? If the orcs brought their families with them instead, where were they in the first season? But, ultimately, if they wanted to adapt a work where orcs are the protagonists and there is a reversal of classic perspectives... apart from Warcraft, there was the Orcs: First Blood saga.
10/10 would bang orc Mom
💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀
GREAT 👌 AITEORI THE ORCS NOT SYMPATHETIC VILLAINS 😈😈😈💀😈😈😈😈
Tmi
Yeah she got the Tow Mater looks going on
Orc Mom OF when?
The irony of some dude saying “he’s white and grew up in England, of course he was racist” being a racist is evil, therefore the dude is calling a whole race of people inherently evil, doing the exact thing he is baselessly accusing Tolkien of…
Also Tolkien is from South Africa. He immigrated to England.
@@darthskarr8975 Well, he was four at the time. His family was English.
thinking the same thing
Oops
He wasn't racist. They're idiots. It's an old english story so no, not a lot of blacks in pre-historical England. Sorry snow flakes.
One thing I learned while helping people proof read their essays/papers at school is that there are actually people who will write FAR below their education level or age but believe they’re the second coming of Shakespeare. I imagine the writers of this show are those people that somehow failed upwards.
>>is that there are actually people who will write FAR below their education level or age but believe they’re the second coming of Shakespeare
@@alexmuenster2102 Either or gets the point across. I believe your statement is implied as part of mine.
9:32
Lord of the Rings orcs: kills one of their own, immediately yells "meats back on the menu, boys!" whole crowd rushes in to dismember their dead comrade in arms and eat him raw.
Rings of Power orcs: omg I just wanna live in peace and raise my lil orclings, you warmonger!
that was a goblin killed by a orak hai
@@alejbr4 Goblins are orcs, in Middle Earth. There are many tribes of orcs, those living in the Misty Mountains are often referred to as "goblins" as they are "shorter of stature and crooked of limb", but they are orcs none the less.
@@redvenge709 what he meant is it was uruk killing lesser orc, not "one of their own".
@@elenoe8 And almost every named orc in the books threatens or kills another orc at least once. So, no being one of their own wouldn't make them hesitate either way.
@@alejbr4 Sorry, yes, I was not precise!
RoP showrunners: Actually, orcs aren't inherently evil, they are just misunderstood. 😢
Also RoP showrunners: People criticizing our work are literally evil! 🤬
Criticizing is never evil
Harvey Weinstein wasn't inherently evil, just misunderstood.
Ah, I see they're taking a page from Amandla Stenberg's playbook. What a joke.
You Jackson fans are so dimwitted.
@@johnbox271 I made a tribute for him once
I heard that Tolkien was actually disturbed by the idea of orcs being representative of people at all and I heard that he wrote them to embody the dehumanization that went on during WWI, though this is hearsay so do not blindly take my word for it.
I doubt it. Tolkien notoriously hated allegories to real-world events. He claimed any allegory people saw in his works were purely the readers' own interpretation and was not intended.
That's why he was so critical of his friend CS Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, which is just a big blob of Christian allegories.
Although it be funny if it was confirmed that Orcs are suppose to be fighter planes.
EXCELLENT WORK. AITEORI SKIP WOKE ORCS SYMPATHETIC SERIOUSLY,
In 1944 he wrote to his son Christopher, who was having a tough time training with the Royal Air Force, "you are a hobbit among the Urukhai." He also wrote that, while "we" thought of ourselves as the "good" side in the war, there were Orcs on "our" side as well. So yeah, his anti-orc sentiments could apply equally to the English and their allies. It wasn't particularly to do with war, only that war brought people from sheltered backgrounds (like himself in WW1) into contact with the lowlifes.
Orcs are supposed to be a force of corrupted nature. They literally grow in vats of bubbly, gooey poo in the movies. The writers just keep showing how little they actually know about the lore.
Bet comment by Fenris5932 - “So the way I always read orcs after reading Lot and reading their origins of the Silmarillion is that the orcs are a sad existence but you don't necessarily need to feel bad for them and you definitely should kill them. They were made by Morgoth to be slaves and killers. The only thing resembling joy they feel comes from conquest and cruelty and whenever Sauron or Morgoth are around, they basically become drones that have no way to resist their wills. There is a sadness in a creature that not only doesn't have control of its own mind, but one that has no ability to feel content and happy or make friends or fall in love. If I remember correctly, they refer to the creation of the orcs as chiefest of Morgoth's cruelties. Ruining not only the lives of the original set of orcs he made (potentially from elves, potentially from something else), but every generation that comes after. At least animals feel good when they eat and reproduce and are safe in their nests. Orcs don’t even get that.”
Isn't that what Legolas and Gimli were all about?
Two peoples from different races, who were dealing with generational hatred and preconceived notions who eventually realize that suff is all bullshit and become friends, wasn't that a major plotline in the books?"
It is, though it's more of an estrangement. With a few exceptions, Elves and Dwarves have never really been close friends. They did trade, or coexisted, or even were allies out of shared interests or necessity. But mostly they lived separate and sometimes they fought. Two major exceptions are the Elves of Eregion and the Dwarves of Khazad-dum, and Legolas and Gimli.
I must also mention that the Elves of Mirkwood are different from the other Elves. And Oropher, the founder of the Woodland Realm and father of Thranduil, was from Doriath, which was sacked in the First Age by the Dwarves of Nogrod; he and the other Elves from Doriath did not forget that. I don't know when exactly Thranduil was born, but he might have witnessed the sack; otherwise his father would have told him of it.
Showing sensitive orcs sorta feels like showing the cannibals from The Hills Have Eyes having a loving family moment.
So if orcs have families like we do, do they also have orc nurseries and primary schools? I wonder what classes their kids have to go to. Warg Riding? Manflesh Cooking? Elf Stabbing? How Not to Brush Your Teeth? C’mon Rings of Power, you started this and I want to know more about orc society. In what other ways are they *so* much like us?
Can't wait for my lovely godchild Azghûl to finishs his masters in Elf slaughter with a minor in making art with freshly ripped dwarve teeth❤😇
Pirating is a good class.
How not to get your fleet boarded and captured before you commence your naval strike.
@@MrDe4dGuy34 Do you think that an army that doesn't cooperate together is a full force? It's not a good show, but try not to diminish Tolkien with your own ignorance that is as subtle as Home and Gardens just outside of Mordor.
They probably teach them to sing like those songs:
"Fifteen birds in five fir-trees,
Their feathers were fanned in a fiery breeze.
What funny little birds - they had no wings.
Oh, what shall we do with the funny little things?
Oh, what shall we do with the funny little things?
Roast them alive or stew 'em in a pot!
Fry them, boil them, eat them hot?
Bake 'em! Toast 'em! Fry 'em! Roast 'em
Till beards blaze and eyes glaze;
Till hair swells and skins crack,
Fat melts and bones black
In cinders lie beneath the sky!
So the Dwarves shall die! (Ha ha ha...)
Fifteen birds in five fir-trees,
Their feathers were fanned in a fiery breeze.
What funny little birds - they had no wings.
Oh, what shall we do with the funny little things?
Oh, what shall we do with the funny little things?"
:)
These people want to humanize evil characters because they identify more with them than the good. And that is telling about their own character.
Oh shit. That actually makes sense lol. Look there's nothing wrong with understanding a character's backstory. Remember Jason? I think it's Jason. Wait... Mike Meyers. One of them two drowned and had mommy issues. It was sad, but no one is gonna all of a sudden be like "Show Jason, fall in love with a woman and he has a baby" and pretend that makes up for the smorgasbord of people he massacred.
@@Alteoriit's like people don't realize that we can understand why someone does bad things, and still think they shouldn't do bad things.
Then these same individuals turn around and claim *they* are the ones with a complex worldview. Because they sympathize with villains and murderers, whereas the rest of us do not support villainy or murder even if the villains and murderers have families or aren't pure undiluted evil.
Edited to add: you nailed it! There's a very fine line between that and hybristophilia.
Not necessarily
@@joywagner979to be fair there have been plenty of times with people have sympathy for the villain despite all the awful things they do for example remember Omni man from invincible despite all the terrible things he done at the end of the season 1 people still feel sorry for the guy even willing to make excuses for him there is also that female viltrumite Anissa despite what she did to Mark layer in the comics people are still more sympathetic towards her Dean Amber
@@animezilla4486 yeah, I know, and have personally felt a lot of sympathy for villains before -- or at least understood why they did what they did.
I just don't think we should be sympathizing with the villain over the hero. When a show overwhelmingly pushes its audience in that direction, the show has done something wrong.
NEXT! They will show how the Mexican Cartels are often misunderstood people with wholesome family values.
💀💀
"Adolf". A powerful story of a misunderstood artist whose dream was to unite his people, only to have his aspirations shattered by the forces of white oppression.
I'm òffensive, and i find this M3xican
Oh they already do that lol It’s like they want us to think every other country is this beautiful innocent paradise and America is so evil. Wonder why they all moving here then.
Gus Fring was actually a good man. Which would be what the ROP writers would do.
Talion is going to be cancelled into Morgoth’s hole once the Orc Ally Association finds out he’s been bullying Uruks and Ologs constantly, poor ranger’s reputation is doomed.
Middle Earth Association for the Advancement of Orcdom spokesorcs have already escalated the matter, surely
@@bigyoshi5170 I love that game. Never saw a neon pink troll before. But maybe that's too woke for y'all.
Your laugh is always the cutest part of the video because it’s genuine emotion. ❤
My favorite part of the show was when Orc Daddy bought a farm and paid his taxes. truly peak cinema.
Got one question. If you can create beings for war. Why would you want them to have cares other than facilitating war? Procreation isn't a defense. The person can create the beings. They don't need procreation abilities. They're cannibals so that they can eat their enemies, and eat fallen fighters. What use is love and mating?
In the legendarium, as it developed, Melkor did not _create_ orcs. He corrupted existing creations into orcs.
@@Tar-Elenion Oh, okay. So this show is more stupid.
Don´t know about the relation to the world of LOTR but if you "design" creatures as a weapon - of course it might be beneficial to create them with reproductive capabilities. A small group trapped behind enemy lines could multiply in a short amount of time and soon enough the enemy gets attacked from behind - or they could attack vulnerable supply lines behind the front lines. Just to say - there is utility in that.
Yeah. The original orcs were made by melkor capturing and corrupting a group of elves to make his army. And the ent tree beard believed that trolls are made to ve a mockery of ents as orcs are a mockery to elves
@@mbob4337 definitelly don't want to see Amazon portait Romero's zombies this way. But hey, they are all victims too I guess and need sympathy.
Orcs have at least 3, maybe 4 origins - from what I understand, even Tolkien himself wasn't concrete on this information. Of them all, *none* of them ever mention sexual reproduction in any form.
The one way we've seen them made - sort of - was in one of the films, wherein a Uruk-Hai (which I think is meant to be an Orc-Man hybrid) essentially spawns out of the earth, fully-grown and completely subservient to Saruman. It could understand basic orders, and its sole desire was to serve and kill whoever or whatever got in its way. the best way to explain this to those who don't understand what I'm saying: they could spawn from the ground like the Gems from Steven Universe
The only other ways that I know of, which are mentioned in the books, are that the Orcs were elves at one point. These elves became the Orcs in three ways: The power of Morgoth & or Sauron corrupted them, they were captured and corrupted using their magics, or they were tortured to the point that they then became Orcs. Either way, they were essentially good elves turned bad orcs.
Now, I'm not going to go on some long-winded rant hereon after, stating my issues. Simply put: an Orc family is nonsensical, and goes against canon; the people who thought of this don't know Tolkien.
In the Silmarillon, orcs are said to multiply after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar, hence sexual reproduction. Pure creations of Morgoth can't reproduce (like Dragons).
Also, Bolg is the son of Azog.
He does say they reproduced in the manner of Elves and Men, which is generally accepted as meaning they're normal lifeforms capable of sexual reproduction, plus, the word breeds is often used to reference different sorts of Orcs, which implies that they are like dogs, different strains bred intentionally for various functions, most notably the Uruk-Hai, who were bred from a mixture of humans and orcs (Portrayed as dirt coccoons in the films because coccoons aren't as yucky as orcs and humans having sex.), which must've been done somehow, possibly sexually.
... what?
In Tolkien's letters he writes "there must be orc women. They are not seen for orcs are only ever seen in war.". In "Unfinished Tales", he writes about how Saruman breeds men and orcs, so clearly, orcs can breed as men do. The "spawning out of the ground" was made up by Peter Jackson because the films are PG13 and he did not want to show Saruman breeding men and orcs (in LotR, Treebeard even speculates that Uruk Hai are orcs bred with men).
It's fairly obvious that orcs breed just as men and elves do and the proof is in the professor's official and unofficial writing. As for families? We can only speculate. Orcs are creatures of hate, cursed by dark sorcery and molded by cruelty and degenerate behavior (such as cannibalism). I doubt orcs are the kind and nurturing type. Eru would probably be the only being in Middle Earth who could free the orcs from the evil magic that compels them; to give them even a tiny chance of redemption or goodness.
@TheRealW.S.Foster "Some people think that there are no Dwarven women, and that dwarves just spring up out of holes in the ground."- Gimli
Why does there have to be mention of orc sex for you to believe it? The point is, "the canon" states that orcs were not born of malice but were tortured in the void. Elves that were subjected to chaos and brutal twisting of their mind, body, and soul. They are creatures like any other. They eat, they sleep, they breathe, they screw. It's really not hard to understand if you actually read "the canon." Melkor did not MAKE orcs-- Periodt.
Probably greatest thing to tell all modern writers in my opinion would be, “Humanization/Empathy isn’t the only way to add complexity to your villains.” Like add layers to their evil, orcs who want to follow Morgoth and be pure chaotic destructive evil verses orcs that want to follow Sauron as he tries to be more lawful evil. Orcs who don’t think its appropriate orcs should try and live like the other children of Eru verses orcs that do want to build something (but that something can still be terrible). Thanos was evil yet understandable thats why we like him. They didn’t (thankfully) make Thanos the family man who is just trying to kill half the universe to bring back his wife or something. There are so many ways to add layers to the orcs beyond “look they have families just like you do.”
Well for me one of the best ones to make a good villain is to always remember that a villain will do whatever it takes to get what they want. A hero is often constricted by his/her morals and it's the one of the few inbuilt advantages villains have over any hero. So a villain can do good things for his ultimate goal of lets say world domination, maybe he even thinks that him or her being in control is for the best. Hell Sauron probably did things like that, he would have likely allied himself with some good guys during the second age or before and playing himself off as some good guy but in the end he would just be using that person or people as a chess piece(s) to maybe destabilise a certain area, make it weaker and easier to control or something like that. A villain can still be evil while doing arguably good things.
I look at the shark in Jaws and I say to myself, "this shark isn't evil, it's just being a shark." But I also understand why the people on the island just can't let a shark swim around and eat their children.
A classic conflict between villains is the total destruction vs. conquest conflict. You could have orcs that just want to raze the land and do as much damage as possible, then orcs who want to conquer and rule over the land. Both are evil, one is arguably _less_ evil, and you can explore the unique motivations of both. Also it's not even necessary to give them depth, there is nothing wrong with "force of pure evil" villains, in the same way a natural disaster has no motivations a force of pure evil simply does evil things, because it's less of a character and more just a story element.
@@AkuTenshiiZero in Tolkien we do have various such motivations among the Orcs! In The Hobbit Bolg of the North, son of Azog, is the leader and chieftain of the Goblins/Orcs of Mount Gundabad who unites the tribes of Misty Mountains because they 'revoled now to win dominion of the north' and wanted a piece of treasure of Smaug for themselves :)....there are various factions and groups of orcs in Lotr too, some of the 'northerners' so Orcs of the Misty Mountains:
"To Pippin's surprise he found that ... many of the Orcs were using ordinary language. Apparently the members of two or three quite different tribes were present, and they could not understand one another's orc-speech. There was an angry debate concerning what they were to do now: which way they were to take and what should be done with the prisoners.
'There's no time to kill them properly,' said one. ...
'That can't be helped,' said another. 'But why not kill them quick? ...They're a cursed nuisance, and we're in a hurry.' ...
'Orders.' said a third voice in a deep growl. 'Kill all but NOT the Halfings; they are to be brought back ALIVE as quickly as possible. That's my orders.'
... 'Why alive? Do they give good sport?'
'No! I heard that one of them has got something, something that's wanted for the War, some elvish plot or other. Anyway they'll both be questioned.'
'... Why don't we search them and find out? We might find something that we could use ourselves.'
'That is a very interesting remark,' sneered a voice, softer than the others but more evil. 'I may have to report that. The prisoners are NOT to be searched or plundered: those are my orders.'
'And mine too,' said the deep voice. 'Alive and as captured; no spoiling. That's my orders.'
'Not our orders!' said one of the earlier voices. 'We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.'
'Then you can wish again,' said the growling voice. 'I am Uglúk. I command. I return to Isengard by the shortest road.'
'Is Saruman the master or the Great Eye?' said the evil voice. 'We should go back at once to Lugbúrz.' ..."
Straight from the book!
I adore all villains who don't p***y foot it around like the leftists shoehorns in. Give me pure unfiltered evil, chaos, psychosis, EVERYTHING wrong.
Orc:"It's the black forest nothing comes out of there alive",
Baden: *laughing in kuckucksuhr*
That scene with the queen was so egregious. Can you imagine anyone getting that close to Cersei? Daenerys? Wow these writers.
RIGHT!!!!!!! EXACTLY!!!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂 Like you're hurting, we get it, but setting that precedent for people to go up and slap comedians, I mean monarchs, seems pretty stupid
@@Alteori No royal is actually treated like a royal in the Rings of Power. They seem to be treated much like modern day politicians - people with position and power but ultimately, just ones of us. In Tolkien's works the concept of hierarchy, bloodline and legitimacy is very important. I get it, not everyone shares that view of monarchy but it's an important theme in Silmarilion and royals are always majestic. Here, we have Elrond mocking Gil-galad behind his back in Season 1, using his first name when talking about him, miners bullying prince Durin, a guy touching Disa like she was his pal, Miriel is slapped in front of the whole court. Yeah, beside Miriel and Durin, those are just little things and gestures but it's jarring after reading about all those elven kingdoms in Silmarilion, and Numenor in Akallabeth.
I wake up in the middle of Morogth,
And Sauron says "Go forth and execute my wrath",
Oh dark lord dear you'll always be number one,
But orcs just wanna have fun,
Ooohh, orcs just wanna have fun.
@fusionspace175 Yea, but your plot hole assumes he created them. He tortured elven physical body and souls in the void since he could not make anything from his own will because only the flame of ìluvatar could create life. These orcs had personality, shared emotion, and showed the inescapable symptoms of malicious manipulation. This show poorly executed Tolkien's actual thoughts on the orcs, but I'd be as so bold as to say you really don't know much more. Orcs have structure or they wouldn't survive. Do you even Age of Empires, bro?
😂😂😂
Inside Morgoth? Like sea horses?
Its like making Harvey Whinestein into a sympathetic character instead of the monster that he truly is.
And what's wrong with that? 🤡
The gobblin Headland is still here pretending she's a victim 🙄
With all that logic, I'm surprised they still refused to understand Trump. Surely there's some redeeming qualities in him. 😅
@@petrusnelson4248 you could say Numenor had a Trump ish character popular with the people and power driven, all he needs to do now is build a wall.
Ironically, Gothmog from Lord of the Rings was modeled after Harvey Weinstein.
jason voorhees was bullied, drowned, and watched his mother die....hes still a bad guy.......
This is why more and more people are hating identity politics we can no longer create good story because it might offend someone or see things that are not there
Worried it might offend shariah law types
That horse turned up several times at the best ideal times.
To get back off topic a little, my favorite spider movie “ Eight Legged Freaks” it’s like Gremlins but spiders, it’s more of a comedy. If you haven’t seen it, it’s worth a watch.
It's mine too. I don't even know how many times I watched it 😅
I still have to watch that one. I can't remember if I saw it.
@@sianais me too, I watch it about four times a year. Start of Summer, End of Summer, Beginning of Fall and one of many for my two weeks of “Halloween” movies 😂😅
@@Alteori You can also watch the trailer, to see if you remember it. If you haven’t, maybe a future movie review?
@@Alteoriit's a silly fun ride, but be warned that animals die in it. I think all off screen
LOL...the 'Dark Forest', complete with legends and mythology despite it only being created 5 minutes ago in the show.
@@wekurtz72 absolutely like, either that forest has become dangerous after the volcanoe which is barely enough time to become infamous, or it was dangerous before, but then the frigging volcano would habe killed everything inside that forest
@@columbien10 If the spiders are like the Murkwood spiders... they're not mundane beings. And that one acts REALLY smart. BUT,... how long have they been here?
Hokey introduction as well
@@marhawkman303 Shelob apparently chose Mordor as her home at the beginning of Second Age or so...she definitely must have fled Beleriand after War of Wrath destroyed that portion of the continent and it was cracked and ultimately flooded by the sea....the battle of the divine beings often have such side effects in Tolkien's works hehe :),...anyway Shelob at this point I think she would have been already many hundreds years old....she was said to be "the last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world" but we don't know much specifics about her early life...we know she MUST have been born in Ered Gorgoroth, where her siblings were haunting the Nan Dungortheb Valley of Dreadful Death...and her siblings were facing legendary hero Beren. Shelob is born of the Ungoliant so in a way she is certainly inheriting part of her powers...but would not be as powerful as her mother Ungoliant was so powerful she defied Morgoth...Shelob was very intelligent in book, she was also cruel and loved playing with her food, she was also epitome of selfishness, she only ever cared about herself...so Shelob is more like 'demonic entity' except she was born not like a spirit assuming physical shape (here the video games made a mess :) the Shadow of War sequel to Shadow of Mordor had Shelob being shapeshifted hahah...you probably heard the meme of 'stupid sexy Shelob' because that game porrayed her in humanoid form of a woman hahah...book lore Shelob would no doubt have no shapeshifting since she was BORN in spider form but she is definitely something more than simply giant arachnid...she is powerful entity, Shelob in books seems to possess also some mental powers, she made a deal with Gollum and even apparently influenced his mind:
"Gollum had beheld her, Sméagol who pried into all dark holes, and in past days he had bowed and worshipped her, and the darkness of her evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret. And he had promised to bring her food. But her lust was not his lust. Little she knew of or cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand, who only desired death for all others, mind and body, and for herself a glut of life, alone, swollen till the mountains could no longer hold her up and the darkness could not contain her."
The Two Towers, LoTR Book 4, Ch 9, Shelob's Lair
Shelob due to her age would be huge already, giant spiders of Mirkwood were her 'lesser broods'. She was in Mordor apparently before building of Barad-dur....which started around year 1000 S.A. So at this stage she would be well over 1000 years plus few centuries possibly and so I think she would be alrady much larger than the show tries to depict her (the show in general has trouble with placement in time :) that's because they screw up with compressing the timeline :)).
""There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Lúthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness...."
@@fantasywind3923 yeah, it's an aspect of the world Tolkien left vague, but definitely something... interesting. I was actually thinking this would be more like an encounter with one of Shelob's spawn, and not Shelob herself. 'cause the Mirkwood spiders aren't exactly harmless, and quite smart.
5:45 - Real historical royal palaces (at least in the Asian world) would never allow a citizen to get this close to a monarch, stop 10-20 steps back and kneel before you speak to any monarch. Getting close enough to slap a Queen? What royal system is this?
It BAD system 😏
Even now in Africa no one can approach a chief so carelessly
In the USA you cannot get close enough to the president to slap him, much less slap him.
In America too
I'm loving these uploads, you're such a fun person to listen to hahaha
I'm glad I could make you smile Cody 😄 It's so fun!!!
I think of the Orcs like Klingons closer to STO where they were brutal, warlike and cunning. Tolkien himself refused to call the orcs irredeamable. Just their enjoyment for brutality and cruelty cranked up like a roid raging sadist. Doesn't mean they can't form bonds. In theory they could be restored a bit from the corruption kinda like domesticating I guess. kinda evil thing to do in a way as well but ah well. I believe that Orc would love his mate and child he'd just be stoked for combat just as much.
For the record, I love jumping spiders! They're like little eight-legged puppies! Especially when they do that so-adorable-I-could-melt head tilt! 🥰🕷️
Not all villains need to sympathetic for the sake of just being misunderstood. That sometimes gets executed as poor, shitty, and lazy writing. Fighting video games constantly do this method to keep milking their stories with sequels. Antagonists are most likely to go the extra mile for malevolence thus being labeled as irredeemable monsters.
For some reason, “modern” western writers have this obsession that the only way to add “depth” to characters is to make them “ambiguous,” to put them in a moral gray area. That the dichotomy of a clear division between good and evil is “too childish.” Which is prohibitively stupid. All of Zoroastrianism is built on the dichotomy of good and evil. You think you're smarter than the people who created Zoroastrianism? Pfft sure.
They've taken monsters, bred and trained for the sole purpose of raising war and devastating the peoples of Middle Earth, and tried to get sympathy for them. This would be the equivalent of trying to hunanize the Reapers from Mass Effect, or the Darkspawn from Dragon Age, or the White Walkers from Game of Thrones. This is such an ass backwards approach to making a sympathetic villain, that i have to wonder how this was allowed to make it on screen.
In the Numernor of Tolkien, that woman that struck the Queen Regent (putting aside she would have never been allowed so close) would have been dead before her hand stopped moving. Remember, the men of Numenor were so powerful, able to field such a military might, that when they went to Middle Earth to challenge Sauron's rule, Sauron, who had the One Ring... surrendered.
With regard to Orcs, the thing to bear in mind is less the biology of them, and more their role in the narrative. Orcs are Stormtroopers. Not in the elite sense, but in the sense that they are not to be understood as individuals, but a monolithic fighting force in thrall to the forces of evil.
The great and terrible irony of it is that what RoP has done is make Orcs into "Brown People." Which is far more racist than anything Tolkien wrote, although it is in keeping with the video essay on the Extra Credits channel. Yes, Extra Credits did a video essay on how racist Orcs being evil is, and all it really showed was how repulsively evil Tolkien's critics actually were.
The Spider is supposed to be Shelob, wich means that Ungoliant must still be around.
Ungoliant is a Being of Darkness and Hunger that even intimidatet Melkor at the height of her Power.
Which means that Sauron being there is in no way of relevance with a Threat of that size around.
Orcs are not "living beings" in the full sense of the word. Any life in Arda is possible only with the permission of Eru Iluvatar. For example, the dwarves were not created by Eru, they were created by one of the Valar. But Eru Iluvatar gave them "light", that is, allowed them to become "alive." If he didn't, they looked like robots. An artificial, pseudo-life form.
Orcs were created by Melkor (one of the Valar too), their exact origins are unknown. There are several versions, according to one of them they are distorted elves. But their origin is not really important, it is important that they do not have the Light of Eru. Therefore, they are not alive in the full sense of the word.
Melkor just wanted to create his things, to create his “creation”, which he was not given permission to do. So once in Arda, he tried again and again to create “his” creations, be they orcs or dragons. And also tried to mess up what others had made. For example, he corrupted humans almost as soon as they appeared in Arda.
Therefore, the origins of the Orcs are not that important. What is important is that in the world of the Lord of the Rings, no complete race can be created without the permission of Eru Illuvatar.
There are so many missed opportunities in this show it's criminal think how much more impactfuk that scene where the queen was slapped would have been if the guards had stopped the woman and was dragging her out of the throne room and the queen commands them to hold, and shows her compassion by telling the guards to let the woman go, and we have the scene where they embrace...that would have been so much better imo.
Any leader THAT weak would had been eaten alive by literally anyone.
If you think of yourself like a mother you'll be ripped apart in the real world, that's why most females make terrible leaders, then there's the other half which overcompensate which are even worse .
OMGGGGG RIGHT!!!!! See! You're a regular person not getting paid for this and in only a few seconds you made more sense than the damn writers
@@Alteori what if they got paid to make a shit show to ruin Tolkeins reputation
@@viktorgabriel2554 ..... Damn
@@AlteoriSorry I have to correct you on 1 major point that you'd mentioned.
Tis the Sindarin and Silvan Elves (Legolas et al) that have a feud with the Dwarves.
The Noldor (raven/dark haired Elves) like Celebrimbor and Galadriel have no problems with Dwarves hence the successful trade and friendship between Eregion and Khazad-dum in the 2nd Age between the Noldor Elves and the Dwarves.
Hope that helps.
In the books Gimli and Legolas are actually really close starting in Lothlórien. Gimli rides on the same horse. Legolas promises to visit a cave Gimli loves even though he doesn't like caves. Also, in Lothlórien in the books the elves they first meet guarding the city want to blindfold Gimli or they won't lead them to the city. Aragorn makes them blindfold the whole party instead because of the unfairness. Galadriel upon learning of the blindfolding puts a stop to it. The whole point is friendship and overcoming prejudice! The hero is a hobbit. Someone so small and to many insignificant. Though the party members and even kings treat them all well even before the happy ending. How can you read this series and claim RACIST. SMH
To be fair Legolas lives in a cave (or underground city at any rate) and is probably sick of them.
I don't understand why the wrote this show to have the rings forged in the wrong order. Nine for men, seven for the dwarves. Those are what the dark lord had a hand in creating. The three for the elves were created without the dark lord's hand, and so was free from his corruption. Point is, the three rings were forged last, without the dark lord's influence, or corruption. It messed with his plan to bind the rings to his secret master ring.
I'll say to the people who called Tolkien Racist what I said to someone who called me a bigot for not liking the Acolyte "Prove it, go on I can wait"
It is funny because the Acolyte is one the most racist , and bigot show ever all of the black characters are murderers sociopath, and they have no dad except for one guy but they make him a joke. The lesbians are being portray as a cult that use dark magic.
Ah, you too eh? I got called sexist, racist, bigotted, twansphobic, all that crap because I laughed at amandala's meltdown twerkathon LOL
My daughter loved that movie cause it made her feel powerful and confident. It was fun to hear her sing the song and yell the words "get off of my back" like an anthem. It was funny. I dunno what she was rebelling against but hey it was a outlet for her feelings at the time.
Daleks aren't literally evil, despite being engineered to feel nothing except hate, they're just misunderstood.
But it is not their fault that they are evil then, right? Does not mean they are misunderstood tho. Sorry, I had to.
@@turkoositerapsidi It isn't the fault of a jaguar that they're carnivores and need meat to survive. It isn't the fault of Hornets that they prey on bees. No one blames the dog for being loyal and protecting its owner.
It's the nature of the thing. Daleks are made the way they are in the lore. While it's no fault of their own, it's by design. It's natural for them to hate and kill.
There is no misunderstanding. 仕方ない。
@@adibemaxwell6111 Exactly.
Just for context :
- Authors taking inspirations from people / historical events to portray they world don't translate to racism. The Orcs being, partly, inspired by the mongolian hords doesn't mean "asian people" bad, it mrans that the Orcs have the same level of conquering power as the mongols.
- Also, the industrialized Orcs are more comparable to 1914 Germany during WWI, and the brutality of a conflict Tolien actually fought in... Elfs, Dwarfs and Humans in need to ally literally is what happenend during the WORLD war.
I meant to comment this on the last video, but Tolkien specifically wrote LOTR because he was so sad that Europe’s mythos was lost/destroyed. This is supposed to be Europe long ago so of course the characters are mainly white!
The demon-spider mama is supposed to be Shelob from The Lord of the Rings. The one that stings Frodo and fights Samwise.
I think Tolkien's initial conception of orcs were closer to golems sculpted from the earth and were treated as automata for Melkor's will (this should sound familiar if you change orcs to dwarves and Melkor to Aule and a scene from on of the Jackson films). It kind of makes them similar to the Darkspawn from Dragon Age. Tolkien later changed this to fit the idea that evil cannot create but can only corrupt but not create. Though he never settled on whether orcs were corrupted men or elves. Tolkien did realize the problem of having an entire race that have souls and free will but were also treated as unrepentant, irredeemable monsters but couldn't quite figure out how to solve that problem. But I don't really have much of a problem with using minions in fiction. Storm troopers from Star Wars, the Chitauri in the Avengers, Nazis in Indiana Jones.
Back then, 'Germans', 'English' and 'French' etc really were seen as different 'races'. A Brit could be racist against a Frenchman, but also an Englishman against a Scotsman etc even though it sounds ridiculous now. This 'all 'white' people' being just one 'race' is a fairly recent and very American thing, which has now spread to be the norm. It makes interpretation of older works a bit complicated when seen from atop the lofty moral pillar of modern multiculturalism. The people who are screeching about Tolkien and racism really aren't worth listening to, as they definitely don't seem capable of thinking outside their very narrow interpretation that conveniently aligns with their virtue signalling, limited life experience and clear wilful ignorance.
This "all white people are the same" is so annoying. There is no "white race". Just within Europe, their is so much ethnic variety. You have the Nordic people, the Germanic people, the Slavs, the Mediterranean people, etc. You usually can tell, just by looking at them, if a person comes from England, from Germany or from Italy.
@@awsome182 exactly. Travel even 100km in Europe and the people look different and speak a different language.
It isnt an "american" thing at all.
I love your ability of yapping. Infinite yapping. Without any mililiter of oxygen inhalted. It's impressive. And very sweet and cool.
3:33 IDK why but when I saw the dog I knew exactly what she was think and I just busted out laughing when I heard the sigh. I understand Alteori doesn't like seeing dogs die and there's an app for that but still
22:36 Shit I didn't know that! thanks for the harmless information aunt Alteori!
I think Tolkien struggled to settle on an origin for the orcs because of his Christian faith. All souls are supposed to be able to be redeemed. The orcs kind of need to be a race of pure evil, with no redeeming qualities, but it's hard to accept as a concept, for someone who worships a god meant to possess an infinite capacity for forgiveness and grace. For my own head canon, I imagine orcs to be corrupted men. I imagine the first Uruks to be men who chose to follow Morgoth willingly, men who chose darkness and hate. It was this that caused them to actually take on the orcs recognizably different appearance from the Eldar and the Edain. I imagine there _are_ orcs born, from time to time, who choose to go against the will of Morgoth and later Sauron. But I imagine these orcs are always killed for their beliefs. I like this idea, because it preserves the grace Eru Illuvatr. He would never allow the hopelessness of being "born evil". The orcs we encounter in the story are all evil, because only evil orcs survive in orc society. Indeed, only the most evil members of that society would be trusted with the important roles given to the orcs in the story.
The main inhabitants of arda were supposed men and elves (eru iluvatars children). So when aule created the dwarves that was a huge problem. Aule explained to iluvatar that he made his creation (the dwarves) so he could love and teach his craft to them. But to stay on good terms with iluvatar , aule was going to destroy what he had created. Aule raised his hammer and began to weep. The dwarves begged for their lives and iluvatar told aule to stop. Seeing that the dwarves had a will of their own he allowed them to remain.
Compare to the orcs. Incrediblly violent and loyal to their masters. Morgoth made the orcs so he could have complete dominance. Orcs cannot be good because they don’t have free will like the free peoples of middle earth.
Any way this is just how I view orcs in Tolkiens writings.
LOTR: MEAT'S BACK ON THE MENU BOYS!!!
ROP: Are there any fruit substitutes my good fellow?
it is said that in the First Age the great Dwarven smith Narvi was a close friend of Celebrimbor (talking about LOTR return to moria game lore) the Elves even had their own Quarters in Khazad-Dum
Tolkien's Orcs are alledged to in the first chapter of the Silmarillion with Iluvatar's Song being slowly corrupted first by Morgoth's Theme then added by Sauron's Theme that is a more blunt Repitition hammering like industrial Hammers on the main theme, but it still prevails and the other two fade out.
That lines up with the fate of the Orcs withering away after the destruction of the Ring with Morgoth being cast out of Creation into the Void and Sauron exterminated as he bound his essence into the Ring, which was destroyed.
Tolkien described Orcs in his letters as an evil mainly coming into the light of day in war times with their origin being the twisted perversion of tortured Elves being made into a weapon serving Morgoth's needs. Later on the mass creation of Uruk-Hai were the Repetition Sauron and Saruman created in earth pits as an amalgam of Orcs and Dunlendings.
In my opinion both Orcs and Uruk-Hai are an allegory of Tolkien about how war creates monsters out of men and humans do so willingly to create weapons of war that will never fit into society again as they are broken and with their dehumanization by deeds are lost to the world. It is shown in his work that litters of Orcs would feed on the weakest ones leaving only the stronger to live and fight for their masters, robbing, killing, raping and even cannibalizing all sentient beings on the way. There is no good left by the corruption of Morgoth and Sauron and to follow the thought of the allegory, there are Mercenaries and others who never leave a war in their heads and will kill over trivialities. For a man like Tolkien in the first World War this must have been a shocking realization that such people exist and they must have stood for the evil created by War itself as a stain on the Soul, a corruption of the Mind. I am not talking about broken Soldiers with PTSD, those were depicted very well in the Houses of Healing Chapters, I am talking about those that come out twisted beyond that, who are left with no moral bounds left. Those may still procreate, but the kids would be humans again, the only way to really gain numbers is in the way Tolkien described with the litters fighting each other and in this losing their humanity by consuming their weak brothers, or through other torturous means.
So with that in Mind, making Orcs into a "real" Species with women and kids is kindly spoken - thoughtless of the Lore and the Background of the Man that wrote that Universe.
"I'm not a baby, I'm a tumor" would be so fitting in this scenario
Hell in any setting where someone like a queen holds supreme power unless your s member of their family your head is coming off if you lay hands on them, hell they wouldn't have to order it the closest guard would do it on reflex
It feels so nice to be early to a video :)
Hello Alteori.
Episode 3, season 2 of Rings of Power. The Orcs in this series kinda reminds me and giving me Warcraft Orc vibes.
Anyway, another great video, Alteori, I like it, see you in the next one.
The same type of people in a zombie apocalypse that would say “Zombie lives matter too” or call the Covenant from halo Victims of human patriarchy buzzwords🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️
_Does the dog die in Sting movie?_
Correct answer should be: "There was no dog in Sting movie, but there was an oversized white rat."
Orcs can't reproduce on their own, because they are not children of Illuvatar, the god of Tolkien's world. Reproducing as Illuvatar's children, like humans and elves, is impossible for orcs.
The best depiction of their reproduction was actually in Peter Jackson's movie, the breeding pits for the uruk-hai. Tolkien wasn't interested in nuanced sympathetic villains, he wanted moral grey area in SOME of his characters, but the villains as far as their morality goes, the villain is literal Satan leading an army of souless demons to dominate all life. It's as black and white as a conflict could ever be.
There are no orc babies, orcs don't have souls, orcs aren't a race of the children of Illuvatar, they are a mockery of life bred for the sole purpose of war by Morgoth. Since Morgoth has no access to the Secret Fire / Flame Imperishable, he couldn't create anything, just corrupt what was created by god. Implying that there are orc babies and that they are capable of moral good, acts of love, it undermines the mythos entirely, it implies that Morgoth was capable of creating life.
Thank you! I agree I have read every work and there is no mention EVER of orc or goblin "women" and babies.
all very interesting sir, but actually in the hobbit the ork Bolg is defined as the son of Azog and let's face it, Tolkien never gave a certain answer in his writings
They reproduce the same way humans (or Elfs) do:
For the Orcs had life and multiplied in the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could Melkor ever make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalië before the Beginning: so say the wise
(The Silmarillion: Chapter 3)
Tolkien also commented on orc women in a 1963 letter:
There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known.
If orcs are descendants of corrupted elves (or men) then, yeah... They can have kids. Azog had a son Bolg. There were also half-orcs. One was in Bree. Other iirc served Saruman.
This is wrong, as far as i know. Certainly this "mining uruk-hai" of the film was something, they pulled out their asses, without ANY source at Tolkien. YES he was vague - but on no point he ever wrote (or did he?) that they came out of f***ing cocoons.
In the Hobbit, Gollum remembers to have killed (and partially eaten) a Orc-child. And in the Lord of the Rings, several lines about the Uruk-hai and other of Sarumans followers did suggest, that they were probably a mix of humans and orcs - and it sounded like breeding. Orc did have their own will and reproduce outside the command of an overlord like Morgoth, Sauron or Saruman, although under the command of them there number did swell much faster. So there are arguments for an "biological" and for an "magical" approach - eventually even both.
I'm not sure if your familiar with "Lord of the Rings" lore but Isildur was the man who kept the Ring from Alrond in the volcano in the movie. So we KNEW we wasn't dead or could die. This isn't Lord of the Rings lore J.R.R. Tolkien is turning in his grave
"He wrote all this unpublished racist stuff? Ok where is it?" Good question, it doesn't exist. They just want to demonize Tolkien.
5 minutes in, and ive learned MORE about Spiders AND Horses, than i ever have about Rongs of Power 🤣
Also, bro, the ADHD, is on another plane of existence, holy fk i love it 😂
so.... they wanted that warcraft orc story......
Exactly what I was thinking.
Was never a fan of the warcraft orc retcon into "the noble savage," i liked how they were just diametrically incompatible with humans and elves.
I cannot believe I say this, but it feels like they pulled the idea of humanizing Orcs straight out of the Eragon books. In those books, there is this race called the Urgals, who basical are an equivalent of Orcs. BUT the difference is, that the Urgals actually were controlled by evil magic to do most of the evil things they did. Later, this magic was broken and the leader of the Urgals asked the leader of the good forces to join them, which resulted in a powerful alliance between them.
I never resonated to closely with Aletori when we saw the chihuahua in Sting.
Hi, I simply wanted to say thank you for pointing out the problematic portrayal of the bind queen in the way that you did. O am a blind person, so I appreciate what you said and the way that you said it. You are awesome! keep up the good work!
that slap scene was incredibly stupid even the king's/royal guard reacts faster and people are dumb enough to poke and prod a armed man because they think they can't move but i am near certain that if she tried that on them she would be dropped the second she raised her hand to them whether she was shot or struck would not matter
there is absolutely no reason for any of the guards to leave a line of attack on the queen open especially if she is blind. there should have been a guard already in the way ready to intercept before the woman even approached the queen and this wasn't even accounting for her blindness that was just common sense. at the very least the guard next to her should have stepped between the two when she approached ready to act
also assaulting a royal in broad daylight was good enough to justify execution hell even running her mouth would have potentially got her killed
whether or not she was forgiven does not excuse the fact that she was emotionally stupid enough to strike the queen in front of several witnesses and at the very least she would be punished regardless because forgiveness is not an excuse to forgo consequence imo because you can understand why it was done but just because you understand an action does not always justify it going unpunished
Synpathetic Orcs, sympathetic Sauron... I can hear Maedhros of the one hand and many ptsd facepalming from across the sea...
How many braincells do you have?
Great...now they dragging Treebeard into this abomination!
Nitpicking a bit because priorities: the dude (person; guess I shouldn't assume their gender) calling Tolkien a racist is deeply unpleasant to listen to, because either an excess or lack of saliva makes their voice sound like the equivalent of a spider crawling across the back of your neck.
Honestly I couldn't stand that person either for they sounded condescending and looks like those hipster who thinks they're morally superior to the rest of us but are actually massive scumbags.
"Sting" had a very interesting premise. The effects are good. It's just the characters. They are godawfully written. You will cheer for the spider to k1ll them all off.
You speak my thoughts for real don't stop these rants ahahha love these!
A horse is a horse. Of course, of course.🤣
Elendil should've gone with Beric to find Isildur. We could've gotten some father/son bonding.
If they thought that little abomination was gonna endear Orcs to me, they were wrong.
The Orc family only works on Warcraft universe, but for Tolkien, it is not like that D:
Works literally spawned from the ground and their first words is who am I going to kill .
That is Warhammer, not Lord of the rings.
Spirit 2: Mustang of the Rings.
I remember the LotR movie orcs came out of some kind of egg sacks, like those Alien movies.
I just made a confirmation in FotR, the orc came out of a "flesh sack" under dirt and mud. They were dug out and came fully grown. It was something else.
"Is she Trump!" 😂
When the Orc with the nuclear family asks, "Must we go to war?" All I could think of was the song "Where There's a Whip" from the Rankin-Bass version of "Return of the King." "We don't wanna go to war today / But the lord of the lash says nay, nay, nay! / We're gonna march all day, all day, all day!" 🤣
Even that film did not mean orcs to not want be violent tho, they just hated their existence as slaves.
The Problem the Showrunners have is that People like strong emotions when consuming media of any kind. We want to feel Love, Fear and yes Hate. Thats why Storys with clear evil villains just work. They should leave the Grayzone Storys for people with Talent.
People are nihilistic and desperate for any type of enchantment and wonder
And the eagle was like "Tweeh Tweeeh, you bastards!"
I'm dying! rofl XD
16:21 What? Ok what is this guy smoking, and where can I get🤣People today, I mean.... I don't even. Huh? What🤣🤣🤣I have no words. Love you videos btw, Alteori🤘
The Oourcs are supposed to be a stand in for the horrors of War that Tolken saw fighting in WW1
Sting actually has a bunch of pets get disappeared by the giant spider. Orcs are good boys they dindu nothin.
Don Lemonlas seems to think that he's Deadpool with all of those pointless twirling acrobatics LOL.
@alteori 😳 "stretching people's walls" sheesh I gotta put that tag on my R34 posts now
Palantir is the crystal ball thing! Agree and love your videos still!!
Omg I'm not the only one that remembers Spirit
So this is what the horses died for.
Bro holding the spider leg had me dead lmao
"These people are so dumb".. I wonder who wrote this scene.
The writers didn't read the source material so they are using ORC'S from all fantasy lore for example "War of Warcraft" which explains why the Orcs have families 🤣
19:10 "Even when he's wet, he's spanking good looking" Hahaha xD
Also the Arandir "Ass first" analysis was funking hilarious! xD Cheers Alteori! :-)
25:10 - The Monkey - LOL.
Please someone make me a compilation of Alteori giggling uncontrollably for when I'm feeling sad.
The question is very simple: in Tolkien's works - regardless of the fact that in some letters or notes he may have stated that he was in doubt about the redemption or otherwise of the orcs - the servants of Morgoth and Sauron, despite hating them, are subservient to their purposes and, as long as they were directed against elves, men and dwarves, they avoided killing each other.
Orcs are not capable of empathy, not even towards their own kind: two captains of Cirith Ungol, while escorting Frodo into the tower-fortress, discuss what to do once the war has been won and plan to form a band with which to raid and kill without being disturbed by their superiors (i.e., Sauron and his lieutenants).
And the examples of the absolutely destructive nature of the orcs are plentiful, even in The Hobbit (where the orcs are not yet subservient to Sauron)...
...but wanting to remain solely in the context of the TV series: in the first season, there wasn't a single ogre who objected to the idea of attacking the men's village "because they too have families"; nor that we showed reluctance at the idea of being able to die and leave their wives and children alone.
In this season, however, there is a case - at least for the moment - which from the way it is presented should be enough for an entire population... in both cases, it is a ploy as fake as a 3 and a half cent bill made of wood. If that's the only ogre with an ogre and a little ogre in tow, where are all the others? If the orcs brought their families with them instead, where were they in the first season?
But, ultimately, if they wanted to adapt a work where orcs are the protagonists and there is a reversal of classic perspectives... apart from Warcraft, there was the Orcs: First Blood saga.