I don't watch a lot of LCS content, but long-form analysis and like taking a look at the history with the film.. its like watching a sports documentary... thats a lot of hard work! Thanks for the effort IWD. It's also really fun taking a trip down memory lane "sneaky was only good in teamfights" and "Bjergsen+4 wards"
Man i really dislike comparisons based on how much trophies they won. Bjergsen literally gets 5 bans on mid, picks zilean, and still carries 4 players to championships. And it doesnt happen once
exactly this, like uzi pre winning a lpl split into msi in 2018 was absolutely still looked at as the goat of the lpl, and it wasnt even particularly close except maybe iboy, so im not sure why people are suddenly saying bjerg isnt the goat because he only won 6.
People who watched back in season 5 will know how dogshit the TSM team was and how Bjergsen was so much better than every other player that they were first place anyways.
I know I’m late to the party but MAN!! When Bjerg would stream on his first season in NA and would just pick zed and curbstomp the entire game it brought me so much hype as a TSM fan! I even remember when he played URF whipped out the zed and super ez game. Dude was awesome, hope he’s doing great!
This is kind of a self defeating argument that comes up far too often. Dyrus was camped because he was a point of exploitation. This "god tier" top-laner was literally losing to trick2g playing udyr in top lane (the youtube videos still exist). Like, he's a super likeable dude, but he was really never a top tier player.
Some of the Bjergsen critism i can understand but the people downplaying his 2020 summer performance literally never watched the games. Yes he got lane kingdomed at worlds when he tried to play Zilean but we are talking about his NA performance that year not the worlds run that even BB was a part of. He literally dragged doublelift who tried his best to lose every game with a Senna he couldnt even play to the championship trough losers bracket.
@@IHarleyWin And yet you have people saying it wasnt a 1v9 and that Bjergsen hasnt showed up since 2017. Just conviniently forgetting how he carried 2019 spring also with his Zoe. If it wasnt for Zven inting he would have 7 trophies and doublelift would have 7. Then people couldnt even use the more wins argument
@@MMMHOTCHEEZE bb played good for sure but nobody outside of spica played well in 2020 by that logic, there were performances where bjerg was smurfing on lucian at worlds and against bdd but he has one bad performance and suddenly Hes not better than Double lift. who's never looked like a carry to the uzi,imp,gala,gumi,teddy bot laners.
You’ve unlocked a memory Dom. I remember back in like season 4 or 5 I hated doublelift because he was always talking about being the best AD in the world and I’m like bro you’re not even the best in NA
@@ihateeveryone8161 in those seasons' hell no, sneaky, turtle, piglet was better he was great about after that but bjergs worst games were when they had dardoch,kobbe in bot lane and still looked like he could take games over.
@@andyhartkopf4167 yup. Turtle with TSM looked like a solid bot lane with Lust Boy, sneaky with smoothie/lemon nation was great. Piglet wasn’t insane but was about as good if not a little better than DL
Good mental exercise, if you were a GM after any season if you could get either player who do you choose? Spoiler alert the answer literally Bjerg every single year.
bjergsen has been a force to be reckoned with in na! i've been following his career since the very early days when he joined tsm many of the people might not remember since some people started watching na lcs like 2 3 years ago and they think bjergsen is just an okey player or just a good player whatever....and there is the other side of the coin as well ofc where die hard bjergsen fans think he is the best in the world, but the truth is probably somewhere in between but one thing is for sure no1 can debate the dominance bjergsen had domestically, he single handedly carried tsm for many many years and if it was up to me regi should probably start building his statue in front of the tsm office, its sad to see that he lost some of the magic or maybe confidence that made him so great in his career i dont even know how can any1 even debate that bjergsen is the greatest mid in na history but even so i think his career is a bit bittersweet since he is still chasing for that international glory that MAY never come at this stage of his career regardless for me he is the greatest, Thank you dom for this video CHeers
I feel like Bjergsen over DL is totaly reasonable (I do not see a reason why would you make a 1 hour video of talking about why did you put Bjergsen over DL, like its not something uncommon to do), but you putting Vulcan 7th over the like of CoreJJ and Sneaky. And not putting Aphromoo on the list at all is a crime.
Dom trying to convince people that don't even understand the game and have only been watching for 4-5 years. They see these old clips and say "why he showing clips of DOTA?"
I also think it should be Bjergsen but DL is a CLEAR number 2. It feels like this video should have been titled, “why doublelift deserves nothing” based on the content in this video lol
If I remember right Dom talked about Jordon will always being better then Lebron and used the championships in the same way the reddit guy did. Interesting
Those two examples are not even REMOTELY comparable. Jordan was a literal icon and undisputed best player in the NBA for his entire career (outside his random time in Washington). Doms point in this video has a lot to do with that. Even during most of DLs highs it cant be consistently said that DL was a main driving force. Sure MJ had Pippen, Rodman, Nash and others, but he always outshined them all. Thats why you can make the ring argument with Jordan and not with DL. I'd argue it still probably isn't a fair point to stand behind, but saying the comparison is the same as the reddit guys is just plain not true.
@@budrud but the bot lanes double lift was losing too weren't some classes above him in the early years. and Bjerg never played bad enough to move off of goat status where doublelift had splits where, turtle, looked better, sneaky looked better, metas were worse for him.
@@SilencedButNotForgotten no he wasn't. Every split dl was considered the best in the league, bjerg was ALWAYS right there with him. However when bjerg was considered the best dl was not always considered. Not to mention the first 3 or so years bjerg was undisputed best in the league no question while dl wasn't even close.
If championships were the end all be all then people would rank Bill Russell over Micheal Jordan, that's why player comparisons always need context which dom did a great job of giving. It also sucks that watching berj play now feels like watching Jordan with the wizards
the fact that people even contest that an ADC is the better player all around than a Mid that FREQUENTLY carries games (not the main role of a mid laner btw) while claiming that the ADC carries the Mid all the time (totally ignoring that support style champions often make or break games for teams) no shade on DL, but like Dom says, DL rarely outperforms his teams extraordinarily. All this while DL is jumping around some of the best teams in the League, while Bjerg is stuck on TSM for the majority of his career, having hard decayed from around season 6 onwards, of course Bjerg holds more value as a player.
the people who say only championships matter are the same people who would say ruler and uzi are the goat adcs of their regions, despite ruler only winning his first championship this year and uzi in 2018.
@@BucsFanO22 Tell me who wouldve been higher from your point of view? I personally rate him the highest but maybe you have some arguments that change my mind
@@riseagainstthemachine6079 I gotta admit, score for sure is up there and it's hard to say honestly. But for me I'd put bengi, tian and clid top 3. There are quite a few I'd argue could be swapped around though and I wouldn't mind. For example Tarzan, insec, canyon, ning, score, jankos (kinda, he's the best in the west by a lot but not really best ever).
@@BucsFanO22 Outside of bengi i don't see the longevity for clid and tian tbh... So yeah i guess we just value these things differently... For Tian btw: Yes he peaked insanely at 1 tournament. (Still not as much as dandy imo, but who cares) Yes he also was good, partly very good in about 1 and a half split. I don't watch too much of lpl and i wont bs, that I would, so you definitely have the favor of the doubt here for me.
@@BucsFanO22 how the f does clid and tian come up after their poor seasons??? Tian got better now but he was awful. Do you see canyon and other LPL/LCK junglers or do you live in 2019?
It's no coincidence that the team he was on, won every time. And before you say that those teams were stacked.. So was Bjergs this year lol.... It is a talent
If you dont count as carry just cause you dont play for yourself and dont play for high dmg output you can also say that supports are never the MVP cause they dont deal dmg
personally i am not a bjergsen fan, but Dom does have many valid points. 10:36 and yes, just cuz bjerg didnt go 50/0 on TF and zil doesnt mean he wasnt ass-blasting them with his macro and shit.
Disagreed on the corejj point , people were on him prior due to his solo q games as well as the scrim games pro would set up when corejj originally came
This shit is so funny to me. Like when people argue the #1 on the NFL's top 100 every year. That award is voted on by the players and Armchair Andy's dismiss it when its literally given to who everyone in league says is the best player. Who better to say who is the GOAT than their peers? The fact majority of past pros who played in DL and Bjerg primes voted Bjerg is enough for me. Even the 2nd half of Rush Hour voted Bjerg like cmon
You coulda just asked to call double lift, he’s egotistical but it’s a confidence thing not an asshole thing and though he can be an asshole it’s about expectations and I don’t think if you asked him point blank “are you the goat or is Bjergsen the goat” he’d say himself. He would surely say Bjergsen has had a greater impact on NA but maybe also bring up role impact if he had any argument at all. He did play at a time where ADC changed a lot.
they don't care nearly as much and yeah adc did change a lot into a mage meta a tank bruiser meta, hes a good player but definitely had splits where others were better than him when he was at his most cocky.
Not gonna lie, i went into this video as a DL fanboy, that was gonna dissagree with Dom, but i got out with understanding his decision making, agreeing in a lot of his points, but still puting DL first because i'm still a fanboy.
Yeah I dont know how this is up for discussion. The fact this guy is downplaying how good Corejj is too is beyond cringe. Considering the reason why Bjerg wanted to play with Corejj so badly was because how much Doublelift praises Corejj. This guy apparently knows more about Corejjs skill than Doublelift himself does. The dominance showed by Bjerg domestically his entire career is unmatched.
I love Doublelift and I'm not even that big of a fan of Bjergsen but I see the GOAT argument like this... Doublelift is that anime protagonist that wins with plot armor and ass-pulls by an author but Bjergsen is like that anime villain that has trained for millenia, has OP as fuck powers and legit unkillable status but miraculously loses to doublelift. Like, both are amazing players but Doublelift legit has plot armor, it's crazy.
i remember in the TL heydays TL had many team members that preformed TSM was a Bjergsen main team cuz he would generally out lane his opponents till 2022 and win only through beating jg/mid. Doublelift had more shaky games even in loses. imo.
My favorite part was double tweeting the whole "experts" in quotes thing... its like nah bruh, your peers also agree, this isn't some "Caster/media narrative." You are the second best of all time, its something to be proud of. Also great fuckin content as always Dom, always love you going in and doing breakdowns like this
I'm a massive DL fan and biased af towards him. This was a bit hard to follow since I always remembered Double on a rose-tinted glasses carrying games especially in 2019 summer. Now I'm convinced that Bjerg is the definitive NA goat
this doesn't mean Double lift is bad, bjergsen was always underappreciated and did a lot for an org that just expected him to play with whoever at certain times over TL who will spend if need be
Hi Dom, I made the reddit thread. Good video overall and I appreciate your dedication, but I think your tone is condescending towards me because I simply disagree with you. ⚫Are you seriously saying that Doublelift did not carry the 2018 championships and use one finals game as evidence? He was the overall best player on that team and they played through him most of the year. He was great both regular seasons and gapped Cody Sun in spring finals. Look at msi 2018, where they fully played around him and he carried them to wins against RNG and Flash Wolves. ⚫In my post I did not say that Core wasn't good in 2019, or that Bjerg also didn't carry games in summer 2020 (like you insinuate that I am saying). I just said that Bjerg didn't 1v9. ⚫You are taking the 2019 spring finals where Bjergsen did play well, and taking one finals game in summer 2018 where Doublelift played badly as important evidence and keep going back to these points. This is cherry-picking. ⚫15:55 They were not losing bot lane. Another false statement. In the last three games especially DL and Core gapped Zven/Smoothie in CS and killing them. ⚫19:05 wrong and disingenuous again. How are CLG teams with Dexter, Link, and Nien a "superteam"? TSM and C9 always had better players. ⚫21:51 𝗩𝗲𝗿𝘆 𝗳𝘂𝗻𝗻𝘆 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘄𝗵𝗲𝗻 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗽𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝗧𝘂𝗿𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗗𝗟 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗺𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝗹𝗲𝗴𝗮𝗰𝘆 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗽𝗮𝗿𝗲𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗰𝗵𝗮𝗺𝗽𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗵𝗶𝗽𝘀 𝗯𝘂𝘁 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗮𝗰𝘁 𝗹𝗶𝗸𝗲 𝗜 𝗮𝗺 𝗯𝗲𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗱𝗶𝘀𝗶𝗻𝗴𝗲𝗻𝘂𝗼𝘂𝘀 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗽𝗮𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗗𝗟 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗕𝗷𝗲𝗿𝗴𝘀𝗲𝗻'𝘀 𝗰𝗵𝗮𝗺𝗽𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗵𝗶𝗽𝘀. ⚫Why do you say that Bjerg had worse teammates in 2018-2019 (which he definitely did), but never mention how DL had worse teammates in 2014-2015? I agree and understand with your points that Bjergsen had a dysfunctional team from 2018-2019 and had to hard carry them, and DL had better teammates around him from 2018-2019 and didn't have to carry as hard. But it still seems like in the video you pick spring 2019 finals where Bjergsen played great, and DL summer 2018 finals game 1 and this simply is just not a huge sample size. What about the rest of the 2018 and 2019 playoffs for DL? What about the last three games of the 2019 spring finals where DL played great?
Even if I were to grant you that everything you said was true, it's not enough to close the gap. For starters, there's a reason why you singled out 2018-2021 in your reddit post, but more importantly the objective analysis doesn't support you. Using the number of championships won is a flawed form of analysis, and while mvp's aren't perfect either they're certainly better. By using the better metric, Bjerg is clearly the goat, and it's not even that close between the two.
@@gameplayerone3917 Bjerg was better in 2014-2015. In my opinion, they were kind of equal in 2016-2017 (Bjerg wins spring 2017). And Doublelift better 2018-2019. Bjerg better summer 2020. How is Bjerg "clearly" better? Because Dom singles out a few games and exclaims loudly that Bjerg is a beast and DL isn't impressive?
Exactly this! Double's outstanding attitude and personality created his great narrative. Not to discredit him in the slightest. He is deserving of #4 NA Overall, in my personal opinion. Definitely #1 NA Marksman. Bjerg was just a silent, perfect, little robot who was always expected to stomp. His performance, sportsmanship, and dedication is unmatched in NA as of yet across all roles. #1 NA Overall, in my opinion.
The only huge play I remember of Doublelift is his teamfight clean up vs c9 on lucian where he basically just culled the whole team to death and that pretty much ended the series. I was so disappointed in c9... lol
Hi Dom, I think youve done a great detailed gameplay case for bjerg being MVP. I think the case for doublelift is more in line with the case for perkz: success has followed him The reason doesn't matter, it might be ineffable, it might be intangibles, it might be that plays which look weird actually draw pressure and allow team success, it could be anything. On the other side, while you can highlight great play from bjerg, it does seem that despite his impressive in game play, there is a reason preventing a blossoming trophy case unless he is litterally hard 1v9ing, or on doublelifts team. Why is this? Is it bad luck? Does he have too large a voice? Does he demand too much from teammates? Who knows, but it IS reality
You can say success followed doublelift, but look at the people he got to play with compared to Bjerg after Doublelift went to TL. Doublelift got to play with one of the best supports in the world, along with Impact, Jensen in their prime. Meanwhile, Zven and mithy failed spectacularly on TSM, and TSM struggled to find a good consistent jungler. It’s absolutely the case that Doublelift was good himself, but was surrounded by players at his level. You could easily make an argument that Bjerg didn’t have that, not at all. And yet, for Bjergsen to still perform as well as he did while in that environment is really crazy.
@@princeofgreece9054 Hi Prince of greece, I think you may have missed my point slightly! What you have just said is true, but why is it true? TL had gone through many roster attempts before DL joined - including one where DL literally subbed into TL to save them from relgation! Does doublelift have the ability to convince good players to play with him? Does Bjergsen make otherwise good players lose confidence or play a style more suited to him? The answer is we dont know. What we do know, is that teams with doublelift on win trophies, and teams with bjerg on consistently have all star players look like shadows of themselves. The current TL lineup is even a good example of this. Bjerg in my opinion is actually looking like one of the better players on this TL roster, after maybe santorin. But why? Why is corejj so much worse? Why has hansama become nohandsama? Sucess is following one of these players with the exception of the split where doublelift was litterally admitting he wasnt trying because "spring doesnt matter" and collapse is following the other. I dont really like the "bjerg hasnt had good teams" angle. He has had absolutely beastly rosters built around him with top imports, they just never look good playing with him. Santorin was literally on his team before, and looked awful. He had the "best bot in the west" imported to replace doublelift, broken blade, the list goes on. As I said, we dont know the reasons - we can only know the outcomes.
Loved the video. You make the LCS fun to watch still. The only issue is I think is the LCS MVP awards are seemingly random or narrative based half the time. Also, since the LCS is bo1, it ruins the regular season. My last point is just for the sake of debate. 2018-2019. In Summer 2018 with the mage bot meta, Bjerg did not even qualify for worlds and Doublelift somehow won. 2019 spring, BB was the carry of that team in playoffs.
Man, I was just thinking on a surface level and still I thought that Bjergsen is better than Doublelift, but watching all these vods.... it's not even close, like Bjergsen has been the CEO of NA for so long and any other player you put against him just pales in comparison!
There were times when Doublelift was the best player but Bjergsen was way more consistent throughout his entire career. Also I think Bjergsen being the shot caller for the team is a pretty big deal because its something Doublelift never did.
I can't believe you can say the Bjegsen winning 2017 Summer MVP was "not contentious". If you mean relative to DL, then yeah of course. But, that MVP was definitely controversial since Bjerg wasn't even the best Midlaner that split. Jensen won First Team All-Pro, had almost 50 more kills than the next highest person that split (not even Bjerg), and outdid him in almost every statistic. Not arguing that Jensen is above Bjerg in the NA GOAT discussion at all, just stating that I believe Bjerg undeservedly won that specific MVP.
That mvp was odd for sure. It was the only time MVP was the most valuable player for their team and not just the best player, except for maybe the split rush won it. Jensen was def better that split but bjerg was just hard carrying his entire team.
Sneaky > doublelift but jsut to help DLs adc case, I feel like ADC competition in NA was far better than midlane. There were always better plays in Adc than there were mid. I swear the only good mids NA had were like Jensen POE and Notorious POB
Mid laners time to kill is more than half an ADC time to kill across all seasons early/mid game. As soon as ulti comes online for mid. You can pretty much 80-0 someone with full combo (3/4 secs). Bot lane full combo and 6 autos+ making it so much longer. Meaning getting kills bot without gank is the hardest thing to do. As you are xp sharing, you scale with items you don't have. You have low mobility. I'm not saying this because I am a double lift fanboy. There is a reason why all the top players for solo kills are mid laners. There is more skill expression to be had mid, allowing for skill gaps to shine more than in bot lane. GOAT is Faker for league. Any other GOAT category has to be separated by role I would say.
yea but when you compare players in different roles the way you do it is by comparing the gap between them and everyone else in their role and then comparing those gaps between the two. No doubt mid lane is better than adc and always has been, however that doesn't mean that Bjerg wasn't better than his competition compared to doublelift. I agree it is easier to show the gap in mid lane with more skill expression and agency, however, it's not impossible to do so in adc, think of Uzi and ruler for example. Doublelift had teams play around him for a lot of his career and while he was very good and deserves 2nd all-time the gap between him and the adc pool was never even close to Bjergs gap with other mids.
doublelift played selfish too, if you go back to season 2, Bjergsen was just better than everyone, and even when jensen,froggen,eu mids showed up he still won under their nose.
@@karljones7976 Agree with most things said here. ADC is a late game role 9/10 times. So getting ahead of the game as adc normally means winning. Meaning fighting early is always bad. Loss of xp and gold. In mid, you loose xp and gold from 1 death. You can still 1 shot adc later most cases. But on ADC it makes you feel so useless to uber late game which is too late.
Wow awesome content and a lot of work, great job! Really enjoyed that one and totally agree (although i am not remotely an expert, but matches my opinion :D )
I don't watch a lot of LCS content, but long-form analysis and like taking a look at the history with the film.. its like watching a sports documentary... thats a lot of hard work! Thanks for the effort IWD. It's also really fun taking a trip down memory lane "sneaky was only good in teamfights" and "Bjergsen+4 wards"
Man i really dislike comparisons based on how much trophies they won.
Bjergsen literally gets 5 bans on mid, picks zilean, and still carries 4 players to championships. And it doesnt happen once
exactly this, like uzi pre winning a lpl split into msi in 2018 was absolutely still looked at as the goat of the lpl, and it wasnt even particularly close except maybe iboy, so im not sure why people are suddenly saying bjerg isnt the goat because he only won 6.
@@zackestin1368 jensen fanboys are who thinks this and its fine if you think that, but Bjergen never looked like such pure ass and Double lift did
@@zackestin1368 worked well this year didn't it
@@zackestin1368 iboy wtf u smoking boi??????? weixiao, namei hello??????
34:02 like half a decade later Dom realices that his teammate has just running it 🤣🤣
Man, I love this type of content! Thank you for going this in depth with your analysis in this and many other topics!
What a great historicist recount. Great content and analysis
IWD getting tilted by reddit makes him put out his best content. We must make more reddit hate threads to keep the content coming.
People who watched back in season 5 will know how dogshit the TSM team was and how Bjergsen was so much better than every other player that they were first place anyways.
i forget season 5, wasn't that when they had lustboy? I thought their overall team was pretty good, but its been a long time since then...
I know I’m late to the party but MAN!! When Bjerg would stream on his first season in NA and would just pick zed and curbstomp the entire game it brought me so much hype as a TSM fan! I even remember when he played URF whipped out the zed and super ez game. Dude was awesome, hope he’s doing great!
The Real GOAT is Reginald . There I saved you an hour and 12 minutes of your life
Dyrus > Regi
You Are the goat
oh I forgot goat meant - garbage of all times. then your right regi on top
@@lolfreedom6254 that’s a horrendous joke ngl
What a homie
Dyrus is the GOAT, he’s so good that everyone camped him too lane. From Quas and IWD to Smeb and Peanut. Everyone fear that man.
Honestly, Dyrus is the GOAT just for enduring Reggie. That man tanked for the whole team.
i agree, i think Dyrus is still secretly the best top laner. I will challenge anyone at that
He unironically was a top 3 toplaner every split of lcs, with some splits being the best
It is unbelievable how often Dyrus got camped and ganked. I guess people really did fear him in the top lane that much.
This is kind of a self defeating argument that comes up far too often. Dyrus was camped because he was a point of exploitation. This "god tier" top-laner was literally losing to trick2g playing udyr in top lane (the youtube videos still exist). Like, he's a super likeable dude, but he was really never a top tier player.
Amazing job. Can you do some more of this about other Players ? Like Uzi, Score, Amazing ? Like little documentaries.
TL,DR: Zven inted Berjg so hard that we have to have this conversation.
1h 12 minutes? The full 6 hour vod better get preserved on clips channel too.
not to mention the countless hours of lcs game footage reviewing on his and editor's part
I love how this video is 1 hour of him explaining "I was able to shit on Doublelift my whole career, but never on Bjergsen"
I think it's a pretty good reference point considering he used it in the context that his teams were bad.
Some of the Bjergsen critism i can understand but the people downplaying his 2020 summer performance literally never watched the games. Yes he got lane kingdomed at worlds when he tried to play Zilean but we are talking about his NA performance that year not the worlds run that even BB was a part of.
He literally dragged doublelift who tried his best to lose every game with a Senna he couldnt even play to the championship trough losers bracket.
That 2020 run was absurd. One of the greatest solo carries I’ve ever seen in LCS.
@@IHarleyWin And yet you have people saying it wasnt a 1v9 and that Bjergsen hasnt showed up since 2017. Just conviniently forgetting how he carried 2019 spring also with his Zoe. If it wasnt for Zven inting he would have 7 trophies and doublelift would have 7.
Then people couldnt even use the more wins argument
@@georgeide2337 I get what you're saying but top side actually played pretty well for TSM in 2020 Summer.
@@MMMHOTCHEEZE bb played good for sure but nobody outside of spica played well in 2020 by that logic, there were performances where bjerg was smurfing on lucian at worlds and against bdd but he has one bad performance and suddenly Hes not better than Double lift. who's never looked like a carry to the uzi,imp,gala,gumi,teddy bot laners.
@@georgeide2337 or Viper or Jackey Love or even reckless for that matter..
You’ve unlocked a memory Dom. I remember back in like season 4 or 5 I hated doublelift because he was always talking about being the best AD in the world and I’m like bro you’re not even the best in NA
You must not have actually watched him play back then if that's the case. He was the best or top 2 individually in the region his entire career.
@@ihateeveryone8161 in those seasons' hell no, sneaky, turtle, piglet was better he was great about after that but bjergs worst games were when they had dardoch,kobbe in bot lane and still looked like he could take games over.
@@andyhartkopf4167 Bjerg was able to carry most of the time. DL was rarely able to carry.
@@Gamer4Ever99 bjerg has most wins all time too. like longevity titles. First teams.
@@andyhartkopf4167 yup. Turtle with TSM looked like a solid bot lane with Lust Boy, sneaky with smoothie/lemon nation was great. Piglet wasn’t insane but was about as good if not a little better than DL
My chores are less of a pain when we have those kinds of bangers to listen to, IWD is truly the goat haha
Good mental exercise, if you were a GM after any season if you could get either player who do you choose? Spoiler alert the answer literally Bjerg every single year.
100%. Good adcs are nice but mid laners who are on that level and also shot callers and with his personality is goldm
Everyone: 4th? Gotta be either Corejj or Impact.
Dyrus: Reginald in S4
bjergsen has been a force to be reckoned with in na! i've been following his career since the very early days when he joined tsm many of the people might not remember since some people started watching na lcs like 2 3 years ago and they think bjergsen is just an okey player or just a good player whatever....and there is the other side of the coin as well ofc where die hard bjergsen fans think he is the best in the world, but the truth is probably somewhere in between but one thing is for sure no1 can debate the dominance bjergsen had domestically, he single handedly carried tsm for many many years and if it was up to me regi should probably start building his statue in front of the tsm office, its sad to see that he lost some of the magic or maybe confidence that made him so great in his career i dont even know how can any1 even debate that bjergsen is the greatest mid in na history but even so i think his career is a bit bittersweet since he is still chasing for that international glory that MAY never come at this stage of his career regardless for me he is the greatest, Thank you dom for this video CHeers
IDW coming in clutch putting out videos to watch while eating or doing chores
I feel like Bjergsen over DL is totaly reasonable (I do not see a reason why would you make a 1 hour video of talking about why did you put Bjergsen over DL, like its not something uncommon to do), but you putting Vulcan 7th over the like of CoreJJ and Sneaky. And not putting Aphromoo on the list at all is a crime.
This felt like a kid who skimmed a book giving a report on it, and the disappointed teacher proving a point.
Dom trying to convince people that don't even understand the game and have only been watching for 4-5 years. They see these old clips and say "why he showing clips of DOTA?"
I mean aren't we watching the real LCS GOAT right now in this video?
The dude is probably just a Dom fan and said those crazy stuff to get Dom to make content for us God bless him
I also think it should be Bjergsen but DL is a CLEAR number 2. It feels like this video should have been titled, “why doublelift deserves nothing” based on the content in this video lol
😂😂 I got that feeling as well like give doublelift some credit
Ok. After watching this i just came to one conclusion.
IWDominate is the daddy of Doublelif gatekeeping him since S3 in playoffs
no ones gonna talk about how imaqtpie is the greatest to ever do it?
Lmfao i died when he said Regi was like the Kool-aid man. Just busts in and tells everyone what to do
"The Korean Fellatio Enthusiast" caught me off guard. lmao
just a fantastic video Dom, the league scene is lucky to have you in it fr
Brought so many memories back Dom , damn . I once again felt true LoL content that i loved and missed .
I was promised this would be 3-4 hours long Dom
nostalgic asf, thanks for the hard analytic work dom
The only way this would have been better is if Dom had the idiot from Reddit on a discord call trying desperately to defend his points.
holy shit wasn't this a 6 hr stram?
I would love more history based videos, dom is super knowledgeable
what and absolute banger video, super well edited as well great job dominico
It is insane how in depth you went on this topic. I‘m looking forward to the discussion with Thorin :-)
I listened to this thinking it was like 10mins long... Still remember it because of how concise the content is
If I remember right Dom talked about Jordon will always being better then Lebron and used the championships in the same way the reddit guy did. Interesting
Dom is bias nothing new
Those two examples are not even REMOTELY comparable. Jordan was a literal icon and undisputed best player in the NBA for his entire career (outside his random time in Washington). Doms point in this video has a lot to do with that. Even during most of DLs highs it cant be consistently said that DL was a main driving force.
Sure MJ had Pippen, Rodman, Nash and others, but he always outshined them all. Thats why you can make the ring argument with Jordan and not with DL. I'd argue it still probably isn't a fair point to stand behind, but saying the comparison is the same as the reddit guys is just plain not true.
@@budrud but the bot lanes double lift was losing too weren't some classes above him in the early years. and Bjerg never played bad enough to move off of goat status where doublelift had splits where, turtle, looked better, sneaky looked better, metas were worse for him.
@@Bottlekap DL was literally the best player in the league for YEARS.
@@SilencedButNotForgotten no he wasn't. Every split dl was considered the best in the league, bjerg was ALWAYS right there with him. However when bjerg was considered the best dl was not always considered.
Not to mention the first 3 or so years bjerg was undisputed best in the league no question while dl wasn't even close.
Dyrus votes are so troll I'm surprised he didn't list Chaox as 1st
If championships were the end all be all then people would rank Bill Russell over Micheal Jordan, that's why player comparisons always need context which dom did a great job of giving. It also sucks that watching berj play now feels like watching Jordan with the wizards
The goat of NA is Dom for putting such a quality content
the fact that people even contest that an ADC is the better player all around than a Mid that FREQUENTLY carries games (not the main role of a mid laner btw) while claiming that the ADC carries the Mid all the time (totally ignoring that support style champions often make or break games for teams) no shade on DL, but like Dom says, DL rarely outperforms his teams extraordinarily. All this while DL is jumping around some of the best teams in the League, while Bjerg is stuck on TSM for the majority of his career, having hard decayed from around season 6 onwards, of course Bjerg holds more value as a player.
Doublelift got kicked of every team he was on for a supposedly better counterpart..
the people who say only championships matter are the same people who would say ruler and uzi are the goat adcs of their regions, despite ruler only winning his first championship this year and uzi in 2018.
Also Chovy just won his 1st championship, i guess he's not really that good xD
I remember Iwd saying that Score isnt even top 3 junglers of all time because he had only one trophy xD
Which is true. He isn't a top 3 jungle. Like what?
@@BucsFanO22
Tell me who wouldve been higher from your point of view?
I personally rate him the highest but maybe you have some arguments that change my mind
@@riseagainstthemachine6079 I gotta admit, score for sure is up there and it's hard to say honestly. But for me I'd put bengi, tian and clid top 3. There are quite a few I'd argue could be swapped around though and I wouldn't mind. For example Tarzan, insec, canyon, ning, score, jankos (kinda, he's the best in the west by a lot but not really best ever).
@@BucsFanO22
Outside of bengi i don't see the longevity for clid and tian tbh...
So yeah i guess we just value these things differently...
For Tian btw: Yes he peaked insanely at 1 tournament. (Still not as much as dandy imo, but who cares)
Yes he also was good, partly very good in about 1 and a half split.
I don't watch too much of lpl and i wont bs, that I would, so you definitely have the favor of the doubt here for me.
@@BucsFanO22 how the f does clid and tian come up after their poor seasons??? Tian got better now but he was awful. Do you see canyon and other LPL/LCK junglers or do you live in 2019?
Please my man Dom make a commentary of a game you played in your pro career
he did one a while ago
editor the goat for cutting a 6h stream to 1h
Without getting too far into the video. Clutch and winning is a huge determination in Greatest.
It's no coincidence that the team he was on, won every time. And before you say that those teams were stacked.. So was Bjergs this year lol.... It is a talent
Btw I believe Bjerg is #1. But let's be real. IWill definitely is a DL hater. Always has been haha
DOM offended someone said hes wrong.
Dom being subjective 'cause Dlift has ego and personality.
As every other ex pro, since they got trashtalked by the real GOAT.
If you dont count as carry just cause you dont play for yourself and dont play for high dmg output you can also say that supports are never the MVP cause they dont deal dmg
Classic example of people looking at the data without looking into the context.
Good shit Dom.
This video has the same energy as YMS making a 2 hour Kimba video for the pure joy for proving online fanatics wrong
Thanks for the video dom, wrote a college essay with it, ty.
personally i am not a bjergsen fan, but Dom does have many valid points. 10:36 and yes, just cuz bjerg didnt go 50/0 on TF and zil doesnt mean he wasnt ass-blasting them with his macro and shit.
Watching IWD objectively discredit some random "Fan" certainly is entertaining.
Disagreed on the corejj point , people were on him prior due to his solo q games as well as the scrim games pro would set up when corejj originally came
tough watch as usual, keep it up dom👍
I member CLG memes about korean bootcamp, and dexter saying 1 week of practice in korea is better than LCS. KEKW
This shit is so funny to me. Like when people argue the #1 on the NFL's top 100 every year. That award is voted on by the players and Armchair Andy's dismiss it when its literally given to who everyone in league says is the best player. Who better to say who is the GOAT than their peers? The fact majority of past pros who played in DL and Bjerg primes voted Bjerg is enough for me. Even the 2nd half of Rush Hour voted Bjerg like cmon
people don't ask how they ask how many
Even CoreJJ voted Bjerg as the best NA player of all time dude and that man laned with Doublelift for 2 years. Argument over.
Spring 2018 was DLS best playoffs and it’s not debatable sir.
You coulda just asked to call double lift, he’s egotistical but it’s a confidence thing not an asshole thing and though he can be an asshole it’s about expectations and I don’t think if you asked him point blank “are you the goat or is Bjergsen the goat” he’d say himself. He would surely say Bjergsen has had a greater impact on NA but maybe also bring up role impact if he had any argument at all. He did play at a time where ADC changed a lot.
they don't care nearly as much and yeah adc did change a lot into a mage meta a tank bruiser meta, hes a good player but definitely had splits where others were better than him when he was at his most cocky.
bj have more impact but mid was far weaker that adc. adc was legit the best NA lane until very recent
Bro doublelift hates Dom and blocked him over petty things. There's a reason Dom is passive aggressively shitting on doublelift here
27:50 tbf monte did said that clg refuse to use the strat that they practiced in Korea and used their not practiced strat
Agree with support champion played well by bjerg. Props for that
25:29 OMG thank you for putting it into proper words. I was always so annoyed with Monte Cristo and his non stop Korean worship.
Not gonna lie, i went into this video as a DL fanboy, that was gonna dissagree with Dom, but i got out with understanding his decision making, agreeing in a lot of his points, but still puting DL first because i'm still a fanboy.
Yeah I dont know how this is up for discussion. The fact this guy is downplaying how good Corejj is too is beyond cringe. Considering the reason why Bjerg wanted to play with Corejj so badly was because how much Doublelift praises Corejj. This guy apparently knows more about Corejjs skill than Doublelift himself does. The dominance showed by Bjerg domestically his entire career is unmatched.
Where is the “dominance by Bjerg” from 2018-2022? Where is CoreJJ’s championship without Doublelift?
I love Doublelift and I'm not even that big of a fan of Bjergsen but I see the GOAT argument like this...
Doublelift is that anime protagonist that wins with plot armor and ass-pulls by an author but Bjergsen is like that anime villain that has trained for millenia, has OP as fuck powers and legit unkillable status but miraculously loses to doublelift.
Like, both are amazing players but Doublelift legit has plot armor, it's crazy.
When I saw this post I was like, hm makes sense. But after dom explained it I realized it’s such a low quality post
And now they are on the same team again!
And your number 1....
"It's ME! ...aww It's Bjergsen"
i remember in the TL heydays TL had many team members that preformed TSM was a Bjergsen main team cuz he would generally out lane his opponents till 2022 and win only through beating jg/mid. Doublelift had more shaky games even in loses. imo.
My favorite part was double tweeting the whole "experts" in quotes thing... its like nah bruh, your peers also agree, this isn't some "Caster/media narrative." You are the second best of all time, its something to be proud of.
Also great fuckin content as always Dom, always love you going in and doing breakdowns like this
He is objectively the best tho.
They hate him 'cuz he has personality and ego (maybe too much, tbf).
@@SilencedButNotForgotten objectively isn't
lol Dyrus put reginald in there XD
I'm a massive DL fan and biased af towards him. This was a bit hard to follow since I always remembered Double on a rose-tinted glasses carrying games especially in 2019 summer. Now I'm convinced that Bjerg is the definitive NA goat
this doesn't mean Double lift is bad, bjergsen was always underappreciated and did a lot for an org that just expected him to play with whoever at certain times over TL who will spend if need be
39:10 Internationally, Jensen is GOAT of LCS. no contest for either DL or Bjerg :P
Using mvp arguement is weird, since ADC and Top laners rarely ever get MVP.
Hi Dom, I made the reddit thread. Good video overall and I appreciate your dedication, but I think your tone is condescending towards me because I simply disagree with you.
⚫Are you seriously saying that Doublelift did not carry the 2018 championships and use one finals game as evidence? He was the overall best player on that team and they played through him most of the year. He was great both regular seasons and gapped Cody Sun in spring finals. Look at msi 2018, where they fully played around him and he carried them to wins against RNG and Flash Wolves.
⚫In my post I did not say that Core wasn't good in 2019, or that Bjerg also didn't carry games in summer 2020 (like you insinuate that I am saying). I just said that Bjerg didn't 1v9.
⚫You are taking the 2019 spring finals where Bjergsen did play well, and taking one finals game in summer 2018 where Doublelift played badly as important evidence and keep going back to these points. This is cherry-picking.
⚫15:55 They were not losing bot lane. Another false statement. In the last three games especially DL and Core gapped Zven/Smoothie in CS and killing them.
⚫19:05 wrong and disingenuous again. How are CLG teams with Dexter, Link, and Nien a "superteam"? TSM and C9 always had better players.
⚫21:51 𝗩𝗲𝗿𝘆 𝗳𝘂𝗻𝗻𝘆 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘄𝗵𝗲𝗻 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗽𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝗧𝘂𝗿𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗗𝗟 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗺𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝗹𝗲𝗴𝗮𝗰𝘆 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗽𝗮𝗿𝗲𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗰𝗵𝗮𝗺𝗽𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗵𝗶𝗽𝘀 𝗯𝘂𝘁 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗮𝗰𝘁 𝗹𝗶𝗸𝗲 𝗜 𝗮𝗺 𝗯𝗲𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗱𝗶𝘀𝗶𝗻𝗴𝗲𝗻𝘂𝗼𝘂𝘀 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗽𝗮𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗗𝗟 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗕𝗷𝗲𝗿𝗴𝘀𝗲𝗻'𝘀 𝗰𝗵𝗮𝗺𝗽𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗵𝗶𝗽𝘀.
⚫Why do you say that Bjerg had worse teammates in 2018-2019 (which he definitely did), but never mention how DL had worse teammates in 2014-2015?
I agree and understand with your points that Bjergsen had a dysfunctional team from 2018-2019 and had to hard carry them, and DL had better teammates around him from 2018-2019 and didn't have to carry as hard. But it still seems like in the video you pick spring 2019 finals where Bjergsen played great, and DL summer 2018 finals game 1 and this simply is just not a huge sample size. What about the rest of the 2018 and 2019 playoffs for DL? What about the last three games of the 2019 spring finals where DL played great?
"look at msi 2018" I think the point is to not do that...
Even if I were to grant you that everything you said was true, it's not enough to close the gap. For starters, there's a reason why you singled out 2018-2021 in your reddit post, but more importantly the objective analysis doesn't support you. Using the number of championships won is a flawed form of analysis, and while mvp's aren't perfect either they're certainly better. By using the better metric, Bjerg is clearly the goat, and it's not even that close between the two.
@@gameplayerone3917 Bjerg was better in 2014-2015. In my opinion, they were kind of equal in 2016-2017 (Bjerg wins spring 2017). And Doublelift better 2018-2019. Bjerg better summer 2020. How is Bjerg "clearly" better? Because Dom singles out a few games and exclaims loudly that Bjerg is a beast and DL isn't impressive?
@@nostalgiacorner1999 okay so what about 2020 where bjerg is carrying doublelift Inting the split?
@@hollowichigo1023 I said Bjerg was better summer 2020 lol
Doublelift has the better story, Bjergsen was a better player though.
Exactly this! Double's outstanding attitude and personality created his great narrative. Not to discredit him in the slightest. He is deserving of #4 NA Overall, in my personal opinion. Definitely #1 NA Marksman.
Bjerg was just a silent, perfect, little robot who was always expected to stomp. His performance, sportsmanship, and dedication is unmatched in NA as of yet across all roles. #1 NA Overall, in my opinion.
Was waiting for this dom another comment to come
Worth noting Bjergsen was playing 4v5 with Dyrus Top
The only huge play I remember of Doublelift is his teamfight clean up vs c9 on lucian where he basically just culled the whole team to death and that pretty much ended the series. I was so disappointed in c9... lol
Hi Dom, I think youve done a great detailed gameplay case for bjerg being MVP.
I think the case for doublelift is more in line with the case for perkz: success has followed him
The reason doesn't matter, it might be ineffable, it might be intangibles, it might be that plays which look weird actually draw pressure and allow team success, it could be anything.
On the other side, while you can highlight great play from bjerg, it does seem that despite his impressive in game play, there is a reason preventing a blossoming trophy case unless he is litterally hard 1v9ing, or on doublelifts team. Why is this? Is it bad luck? Does he have too large a voice? Does he demand too much from teammates? Who knows, but it IS reality
You can say success followed doublelift, but look at the people he got to play with compared to Bjerg after Doublelift went to TL. Doublelift got to play with one of the best supports in the world, along with Impact, Jensen in their prime. Meanwhile, Zven and mithy failed spectacularly on TSM, and TSM struggled to find a good consistent jungler. It’s absolutely the case that Doublelift was good himself, but was surrounded by players at his level. You could easily make an argument that Bjerg didn’t have that, not at all. And yet, for Bjergsen to still perform as well as he did while in that environment is really crazy.
@@princeofgreece9054 Hi Prince of greece, I think you may have missed my point slightly!
What you have just said is true, but why is it true?
TL had gone through many roster attempts before DL joined - including one where DL literally subbed into TL to save them from relgation!
Does doublelift have the ability to convince good players to play with him? Does Bjergsen make otherwise good players lose confidence or play a style more suited to him? The answer is we dont know. What we do know, is that teams with doublelift on win trophies, and teams with bjerg on consistently have all star players look like shadows of themselves. The current TL lineup is even a good example of this.
Bjerg in my opinion is actually looking like one of the better players on this TL roster, after maybe santorin. But why? Why is corejj so much worse? Why has hansama become nohandsama?
Sucess is following one of these players with the exception of the split where doublelift was litterally admitting he wasnt trying because "spring doesnt matter" and collapse is following the other.
I dont really like the "bjerg hasnt had good teams" angle. He has had absolutely beastly rosters built around him with top imports, they just never look good playing with him. Santorin was literally on his team before, and looked awful. He had the "best bot in the west" imported to replace doublelift, broken blade, the list goes on.
As I said, we dont know the reasons - we can only know the outcomes.
This is the best understanding of the debate
This video made me realize that Jensen is actually better than DL. Bjerg > Jensen > DL
People still deny your points and call you a Bjerg fanboy...
this gives Kobe and Shaq goat argument energy
Loved the video. You make the LCS fun to watch still. The only issue is I think is the LCS MVP awards are seemingly random or narrative based half the time. Also, since the LCS is bo1, it ruins the regular season. My last point is just for the sake of debate. 2018-2019. In Summer 2018 with the mage bot meta, Bjerg did not even qualify for worlds and Doublelift somehow won. 2019 spring, BB was the carry of that team in playoffs.
Man, I was just thinking on a surface level and still I thought that Bjergsen is better than Doublelift, but watching all these vods.... it's not even close, like Bjergsen has been the CEO of NA for so long and any other player you put against him just pales in comparison!
There were times when Doublelift was the best player but Bjergsen was way more consistent throughout his entire career. Also I think Bjergsen being the shot caller for the team is a pretty big deal because its something Doublelift never did.
2020 summer Bjerg also deserved MVP, very close to Core in performance imo
very convincing arguements
I can't believe you can say the Bjegsen winning 2017 Summer MVP was "not contentious". If you mean relative to DL, then yeah of course. But, that MVP was definitely controversial since Bjerg wasn't even the best Midlaner that split. Jensen won First Team All-Pro, had almost 50 more kills than the next highest person that split (not even Bjerg), and outdid him in almost every statistic. Not arguing that Jensen is above Bjerg in the NA GOAT discussion at all, just stating that I believe Bjerg undeservedly won that specific MVP.
That mvp was odd for sure. It was the only time MVP was the most valuable player for their team and not just the best player, except for maybe the split rush won it. Jensen was def better that split but bjerg was just hard carrying his entire team.
Ikr
This is my favorite RUclips video since I'm a Bjergsen fan
As a huge bjerg and dl fan I would call dl the 1st
Sneaky > doublelift but jsut to help DLs adc case, I feel like ADC competition in NA was far better than midlane. There were always better plays in Adc than there were mid. I swear the only good mids NA had were like Jensen POE and Notorious POB
Mid laners time to kill is more than half an ADC time to kill across all seasons early/mid game. As soon as ulti comes online for mid. You can pretty much 80-0 someone with full combo (3/4 secs). Bot lane full combo and 6 autos+ making it so much longer. Meaning getting kills bot without gank is the hardest thing to do. As you are xp sharing, you scale with items you don't have. You have low mobility.
I'm not saying this because I am a double lift fanboy. There is a reason why all the top players for solo kills are mid laners. There is more skill expression to be had mid, allowing for skill gaps to shine more than in bot lane.
GOAT is Faker for league. Any other GOAT category has to be separated by role I would say.
yea but when you compare players in different roles the way you do it is by comparing the gap between them and everyone else in their role and then comparing those gaps between the two. No doubt mid lane is better than adc and always has been, however that doesn't mean that Bjerg wasn't better than his competition compared to doublelift. I agree it is easier to show the gap in mid lane with more skill expression and agency, however, it's not impossible to do so in adc, think of Uzi and ruler for example. Doublelift had teams play around him for a lot of his career and while he was very good and deserves 2nd all-time the gap between him and the adc pool was never even close to Bjergs gap with other mids.
doublelift played selfish too, if you go back to season 2, Bjergsen was just better than everyone, and even when jensen,froggen,eu mids showed up he still won under their nose.
@@andyhartkopf4167 True, but again, the skill gap is more evident in mid than it is in bot.
@@karljones7976 Agree with most things said here. ADC is a late game role 9/10 times. So getting ahead of the game as adc normally means winning. Meaning fighting early is always bad. Loss of xp and gold. In mid, you loose xp and gold from 1 death. You can still 1 shot adc later most cases. But on ADC it makes you feel so useless to uber late game which is too late.
@@karljones7976 Basically risk for mid to get a pick, is not as high as bot to get a pick.
Wow awesome content and a lot of work, great job! Really enjoyed that one and totally agree (although i am not remotely an expert, but matches my opinion :D )
I dont mind if people either place dl of bjerg first, i just think it is int to not put them both top 2.