I'd say there are "propositional" transit maps, and fantasy transit maps. This video was very much an example of a propositional transit map. One is serious, the other is like the transit version of a gingerbread and candy village.
There's something about looking at fantasy transit maps that are so appealing to me. Especially how they highlight areas of cities that are more important than they otherwise seem for a person who is unfamiliar with the city
I think thats they key, you need to have an honest understanding of existing land use and travel patterns to create a map that feels . . . . reasonable
Perhaps instead of to UBC, the Inlet Line could take the Stanley line’s route south of the river to Tsawwassen. In doing so, the greater feeder lines can transfer onto it with direct access to the TFT and bus access to Horseshoe Bay via Park Royal
Bicycle routes and parking need to be connected to all other forms of transportation. Bicycles, ebikes, electric cargo bicycles, robo taxis and escooters are great options for last mile, short distance travel. Walking, running, bicycles, escooters, green open spaces, electric buses, water ferries and trams are all parts of a good transportation system and need to have connections to each other.
As much as the ferries are major, I don't think they currently justify rail or will in the foreseeable future - much more bus service is probably fine!
I don't think that is needed. If there are enough foot passengers to justify rail to Horseshoe or Tsawwassen, ferries direct from DT Vancouver to Nanaimo and Victoria would likely be cheaper for Translink and faster for the passengers. At least with a north shore line the bus connection to Horseshoe Bay should be faster and more reliable.
Personally, I think BC ferries just needs to offer passenger ferry service from waterfront to Victoria. It's crazy to me that nothing like that exists...
I think people underestimate how fast Surrey is growing. Surrey will soon pass Vancouver in population and the transit offerings for many areas are shockingly bad, if existent at all. Vancouver has a lot more dense corridors to easily expand but the delayed approach to Surrey's mobilization scares me a bit.
Surrey and Langley has the greatest potential for density and development in the region guessing that’s why the Expo expanded to those areas. I’m guessing Surrey Central might actually be a Central station when it expands down south, north east or even south west being a more crosstown
Surrey Transit is the worse. The service is always delayed, especially for a Rapid Bus. In my honest opinion, building the SkyTrain from Surrey to Langley is truly a waste of money. I'd rather use that money to build an LRT line from Surrey Central SkyTrain directly to Guildford Mall, because that's where everybody goes in Surrey after they get off the SkyTrain at Surrey Central. The current route of the Rapid Bus in Surrey is truly unreliable. It either comes very late or there are two Rapid Buses arriving in a row. It's just ridiculous. After building the LRT lines from Surrey Central to Guildford, the Rapid Buses can concentrate from Newton to Surrey Central, and from Scott Road to Surrey Central instead. After that, Surrey roads will be less congested. In the future, I'd suggest they build an LRT line from Newton to Surrey Central as well, to further eliminate the congested areas of Surrey. The government in Surrey under Doug McCullum, did not understand nor cared about Surrey residents at all. He wasted Surrey's tax dollars on useless projects, like the Surrey to Langley SkyTrain that nobody asked for. That's why Surrey residents kicked him and his useless party out of the mayor's office immediately. The new mayor, Brenda Locke is trying to fix everything Doug McCullum did previously.
@@thuydoan7496 I think the Surrey Langley skytrain is far more useful for people than an LRT to the mall. People are able to get to school and work downtown or anywhere else along the way so much easier, freeing up both traffic in Surrey and on the trans Canada.
@@jackdonohue7893 I don't think you live in Surrey to know the routes. It is always packed on the Rapid bus, and traffic is usually stuck from Newton bus station to Surrey Central SkyTrain station to Guildford Mall afterwards. People who live in Langley can take the Trans Canada highway just fine, because it isn't congested.
I would love to see a canada line expansion that goes past Richmond into the Ladner Delta/Tsawassen region. It would really clear up traffic congestion in the tunnel. My dream would be stops at Ironwood, Cascades Casino, Ladner Bus Exchange, Tsawassen Mills, and Termanating at Tsawassen Ferry Terminal. I think this would be a really positive development change and could get a lot of cars of the road and encourage more cycling in these regions that are nearly entirely car dependent.
That plan looks great! Just three suggestions. 1 revive the Olympic village LRT and possibly make a Vancouver tram network that connects with arbutus, west end and Olympic village. 2 extend the Canada line to north Vancouver with the Inland line at a mega tc by the rocky mountaineer station. 3 merge Granville and city centre stations into a single stop. This would allow for a major downtown hub in central Vancouver and not cause any confusion for new riders. Plus get customers from Richmond and Yvr to Chinatown, pacific central station, and surrey.
1. 100% 2. The Canada Line yearns to cross the inlet, but according to the BIRT study this would necessitate a re-build of the Canada Line north of Yaletown in order to get to the required depth. Maybe worth it? 3. Do you mean simply relabelling the stations, or actually upgrading them into a single integrated one? That transfer is presently awful, but mostly unnecessary once the Broadway Subway opens. The only thing I could see that would justify upgrading the station with some sort of tunneled pathed to each other's platforms is if the Expo line is extended north towards West Vancouver.
@@adamjamesburnett It just doesn't make sense though. A tunnel there is a ~billion dollars, and saves ~5 minutes, you have to put the water side stations super deep increasing access time, eliminating the time savings. While the seabus just takes 15 minutes, and can easily put more boats for higher frequency if needed.
@@chiliishot but this billion could be extended a bit more to serve north Vancouver direct with Canada line trains, no transfers, all under ground. This would not only shield commuters from the freezing Canadian winters, but provide north Vancouver with some well needed north south in addition to (including what RM transit added) east west sky train (or should I say earth train ahahahah) coverage. Not to mention a mega transfer hub, which sound pretty sweet
I feel this plan is somewhat Vancouver centric. In this arrangement, surrey and Langley remain as commuter based housing oceans. Surely it makes more sense to build more office space in surrey central and Langley city so people can work closer to home, and improve connections between different areas of the south of fraser with better transit. After some 60 years of construction, all we have are 3 branch lines that all meet in the same place, which would make it impossible to really move around surrey if you don’t live in, or are going to, surrey central. A network of Canada line esque, lower capacity elevated skytrain lines to better connect the south of Fraser region will be necessary to reduce car traffic and usage, so I propose: A line running from Scott road to Newton, via 120th and 72nd to act as an upgrade to the R-6 when it reaches capacity. An extension of the north branch of the Fraser line down 200th to meet Langley central expo at a cross platform transfer A line running from guildford mall south along 152st then curving around north Fleetwood to intersect the 160st expo station, and then running along 84ave and south down 152st and west along 72ave to act as an extension to the Scott road line. A new east-west line starting at 160st expo and then running west along 88ave creating connections with both sides of the Scott line, and the south branch of the fraser line, and then running over a pair of rail bridges to stop in queensboro and then terminate at 22st station in new west. If knight street can get a 7 car expo skytrain line, and arbutus can get a tram train, then surely Scott road, and 200th should get it aswell.
Great video! Please do make that dedicated West Coast Express video - it would be so nice to see an expanded longer distance and more frequent passenger rail service. How nice would it be to take a weekend trip from Coquitlam to Chilliwack by train?!
Surrey and Langley simply have so much potential when it comes to density thanks to the Expo Line expansion. These cities need to realize that the reason the housing crisis in North America exists because there isn't enough high-density housing, let alone affordable housing! Cars in NA are seen as a symbol of freedom, but for those who don't have or can't drive a car, having walkable cities with solid transit is freedom. And for the Lower Mainland region to get to a true walkable transit region, it needs to improve its regional rail. There needs to be bi-directional service north of the Fraser, and south of the river an entirely new line like Chilliwack - Abbotsford - Langley - Surrey etc. Ideally this would be through-running, cross Burrard Inlet near Stanley Park, and continue up the Sea-To-Sky Highway to Whistler or Pemberton. It needs trains to the ferry terminals at Horseshoe Bay and Tsawwassen (and perhaps a light-rail shuttle to the Point Roberts border so people can walk across to Port Roberts if they want to), train ferries, and regional rail on Vancouver Island. The island USED to have VIA rail service, the linear pattern of development there is good for rail, and the corridor for it remains intact, it just needs maintenance. Of course for all this to work, the communities it would connect would have to have effective local transit as well.
There’s not really a housing crisis in America, only in Canada. Americans earn much higher salaries and have significantly lower housing prices. Only California and New York have housing as expensive as Canada but the average salary in these two states is about $100,000 USD whereas the average salary in Canada is $40,000 USD. But, most parts of the US like Texas has housing several times cheaper than Canada
I think Vancouver's current plans are pretty sensible, like the North Shore-Metrotown line seemingly being next in line without much controversy, but yeah I do agree that mode choice and a faster line South of the Fraser are issues. The West End is also a continual blindspot of the network. So I think your blueprint is pretty good.
the Park Royal Metrotown line is Stupid Stupid Stupid. Build a transit tunnel under Stanley Park to link up with the Expo line. Bowinn Ma and the NDPs do not want to even talk about that link as it will open a dialogue on the need to build a 6 lane road tunnel under the park too.
Please please do a video on Vancouver regional rail! We need a heavy rail connection south-east through the valley south of the Fraser, connecting Chilliwack, Abbotsford, Langley, and Surrey to Vancouver with faster and long-distance service, and north to Squamish and Whistler. Track to Whistler already exists, and in the valley there are existing sections that could be used, and new track would not be difficult to build, as much of it would be crossing farmland or running alongside/inside highways.
New high-speed route (200kmph capable) along mostly existing right of ways. Pacific Station -> Braid(skytrain) - -> Scott Rd -> Nordel (s. end of alex fraser), -> Panorama Ridge -> 152nd -> 176 -> to the border. Now you've built the 1/4 quarter of a fast rail line to Seattle, and added hugely needed capacity from South Surrey (missing in your plans). Extend Canada Lline south, over the Fraser on the new crossing (bridge/tunnel project), to Tswassassen Mills and the ferry terminal) Expo and Canada Lines are already at capacity, building it out to Langley is going to be a colossal mess; as the trains are already full when they get to New West in the morning; you need an alternate route to get people off of skytrain for those in Surrey.
100% agree with you, maybe something north of HWY 1 that can connect to the millennium line and go as far east as High Street in Abby( which will help with us people in the FV)
Even the LIRR has cross-platform transfers! On the Montauk Branch, part of my ride to NYC is getting off at Babylon for either the express or local train to Penn Station and it's a simple walk across the platform. Cross-platform transfers are simple yet very effective thing for a system to have. And agreed about high-density housing! As more people become environmentally aware, on top of those who either can't afford a car or can't physically or mentally drive one, building transit-oriented development is a must as a way to solve the housing crisis. Hangzhou for example has the Regent International apartment building home to 7,500 people (according to JR Urbane Network; though people have exaggerated to say 10K to 20K), workspaces, a mall, and is connected to two Hangzhou Metro lines! The Hangzhou Metro itself went from one line in 2012 to 13 lines as of 2023 and over 500 km! And that's not mentioning the fact Chongqing has a 19-story residential building with a monorail station right inside it (it has noise reduction equipment to isolate it from the residences). More companies are evolving to have an urban mindset, like Costco which already has an urbanized Vancouver location next to Stadium-Chinatown station. IKEA has taken a sustainable approach as well in Vienna!
Something that needs to be considered is a Connection to YVR to various emerging Downtown Cores. YVR to/from Surrey Central should be heavily considered given that Surrey Central is positioned to be Metro Vancouver's Next downtown
No, that is not necessary. The route directly from Surrey to Richmond does not have any major businesses nor major residential areas. It is practically still farm land there, so there's no need for a SkyTrain route. That is the disadvantage of living in Surrey. It is far away from Vancouver. You can still get to YVR from Surrey by way of the Expo and Canada lines, or you can take the double decker bus directly from Surrey to Richmond as well.
Hey Reece, curious on your thoughts about how to handle the Delta and other south of YVR connections. It's always been strange how not smooth the connection between the ferries and rapid transit network is, and that deficiency does seem to drive quite a bit of car-dependency (with all the problems that brings for traffic etc)
@@RMTransit it would be nice to have something faster than the 620! Speed parity with private vehicles would be a major selling point. With the points made in the video in mind, is this one route which would benefit from BRT treatment?
Completely agree with you on the ferries, though I don't think a solution to them will help Delta much. Horseshoe bay is pretty clearly better suited towards becoming the more foot-passanger port where Tsawwassen stays as is. This is both because of the constraints Horseshoe bay has to handling more vehicles as well as the connections to Bowen Island and Gibsons. I think a regional rail ( something absent in Reece's video ) solution would fit best and a pretty space-generous one at that both supporting connection from the Burrard pennisula ( say around the Brentwood area ) to the ferry terminal as well as up the valley, south of the border and up the sound towards Squamish. With longer hauls between stops, higher speeds and a bunch of sit down space it would be well suited to not just allowing commuters to commute but also for people to connect to a bunch of BC's various wilderness recreation hotspots. Imagine taking the train to Horseshoe with your bike and then biking down the Sunshine coast after a ferry ride, or getting into Squamish to do some hiking around there. Unfortunately though I just don't think Tsawwassen is the right ferry terminal for a lot of foot traffic so I'm not sure there's enough people in the Delta area to help out much there. Though if they do want to do something they need to decide fast so they can make the new south fraser crossing with accommodation for transit expansion.
I feel like the canada line should also be expanded to tsawassen mills, tsawassen ferry terminal, and link up with the fraser line in white rock with stops in surrey newton/panorama ridge
Looking at the Phase 5 SkyTrain map, it really made me feel like Vancouver would need to reach NYC/HK level densities to be able to fund and really take advantage of that level of rapid transit service (which I wholeheartedly welcome!)
@@RMTransit HK density is 6300/km sq, Metro Vancouver is 913/km sq, NYC 11,313.81/km2. Vancouver is building further and further away and density up to pair with those two world class cities are miles away.
Oregonian here! I went to Vancouver for the first time in July, car free, taking Amtrak and my bike. Thank you Reece for your Vancouver videos. I felt so much more confident that I could go car free because you have highlighted services so well. Being car lite living in Portland and having lived car free in Seattle, I'm so happy to see you pushing for lofty transit goals. Portland has really stalled out for now, where as Seattle is steaming ahead with ST3. It's good to see others dreaming big and using their platforms to push for progress. if you ever need Portland transit B roll, let me know!
I am really surprised that you would consider this much branches for Vancouver. I usually don’t like branches as a transit enthusiast/rider myself because they are quite complicated, and lines without branches are better (in my opinion) even if they reach less places, require more transfers, and don’t reach designated destination this fast as branching lines (since no direct connection).
Branches are good when the suburbs that they go to together add up to the ridership of the trunk. They make the trunk a better investment and also provide good enough service for the level of demand at the branch.
@@szurketaltos2693 I personally think a Metro/Subway line should be build for capacity. To serve a larger area it is advisable to just build another line, or if there is no big demand just serve a nearby metro station with another transportation mode. If a city is build sprawlingly, so branches are perhaps an cheaper option, this is then fundamentally wrong city designing/land use.
@@RMTransit Totally agree, (my opinion:) still if a line has just one branching point it is quite confusing when you go into a station if you are at the right platform and boarding the right train, especially when the branching line doesn’t have its own name/color. Also I think it would be better if there was a regional train system (S/RER-style) instead of many different corridor lines branching (even just once) so that a line reaches more places in the suburbs.
Fantastic video and a great vision for Vancouver. As a resident here for half of my childhood and all my adult life, the SkyTrain and all the other services have been critical in making this a very livable city. I am very excited what the future will bring as I think Vancouver is in a great position but needs to keep building to keep up with demand and work towards being more green. I've been enjoying your videos for over a year now, fantastic work and I look forward to you video about the West Coast Express expansion :)
They're starting to build high rise apartments in the Township of Langley along 200th Street and there are developers trying to get them in Aldergrove on the old mall site that they tore down I think last year or the year before. We don't need the SkyTrain now, but we will soon.
Awesome ! I lived in the Vancouver area from 1990 to 1994 when there was only the Canada line to New Westminster . During that time it was extended across the Fraser to Guildford. That was considered a great thing and it was, but that was then and this is now. Dearly hope what you envision comes true . So love Vancouver !
Very ambitious ideas for SkyTrain. Definitely makes it more of a system to get around the city, whereas I was surprised when I visited a few years ago that SkyTrain was more of a regional rail system and getting around central Vancouver required riding buses.
I'm actually wondering if the Vancouver-Seattle-Portland HSR would change your alignment of the Fraser Valley Express line? I would imagine such a line could share tracks through the Surrey-Vancouver section with a form of local express service that could, for example, branch out as far as Abbotsford.
Vancouver-Seattle-Portland HSR would require a lot more work through Seattle tho (you'd need to build a Brand New Rail corridor from an Expanded King Street Station to at least Edmonds probably all the way to Everett) and Portland Union station would need massive Upgrades
Very well thought out, but I would add two things. First, another line south through Richmond with plans to extend it into Ladner in the future. Second, high speed rail through the fraser valley to Chilliwack with an easy transition into SkyTrain for passengers.
Ambitious ideas for Vancouver's transit. Youd have to include massive overlap in the construction of these lines so that you dont wind up taking more than 50 years to get it all built.
Love the idea of the Stanley line! I live in the West End by English Bay and rely on transit. The 5/6 and C23 busses do not cut it! We need lots more due to the density here. Could imagine how much easier it would be on Fireworks nights to get people in and out of English Bay if there was a station - maybe where the laughing statues are now. It would be like when Vancouver hosted the Olympics, would need crowd control and queueing which was done before so it is possible!
Canada Line cars should never have had fwd/aft seating. The line is a maximum end to end travel time of what..20-25min? The vast majority of people do not *need* to sit, and 2 abreast seating just means ppl having to shimmy around all the time to let someone out from or move over to the window. More importantly, ..the train goes to the airport, so there's going to be people with suitcases. Longitudinal seating means people could have their baggage in front of them if needed, as opposed to the current setup where people regularly impolitely take up a second seat with their baggage. Great route, but very poor seat layout for such a short route and one that serves an airport.
I have very much enjoyed your spectacular visions for future transit in Vancouver! This is home and always has been! I do love it here and I do leave the car at home and regularly use transit or occasionally my bicycle. Living in Kits does make it easy to hop on transit and have me Downtown very quickly and if I have a work meeting I walk or hop on a bus or the Sky Train to get me where I need to go but the transit system needs huge expansion. Usually it's efficient and quick! I am in Toronto quite frequently and I am shocked at the delays and lack of vision for transit. I have a huge appreciation for the transit we have but I absolutely agree that it needs to be far more bold and specific! My goodness it has been a long time since I have been on the Sea Bus and sometimes I think it's under appreciated but as far as I know use is high? My niece is out in Langley and she'd love to be able to take the Sky Train in all the way to Downtown Vancouver. I hope this is eventually possible! I think your thoughts on what Vancouver should be planning for transit are so well analyzed. It struck me that I rarely think about issues like flooding and the implications for transit. Thank you for being so comprehensive. I need to read a lot more and study these serious issues. I am excited at your terrific outlook on the future of Vancouver transit and the choices the city should make. Thanks for the amazing video!! 🙂
it really is insane that there is literally only one point on the skytrain where you can do a cross-platform interchange, which is at lougheed station getting off the expo line coming in from waterfront to get on a millennium line train heading to lafarge lake
I would recommend a line going from Downtown under the Granville St. bridge to Granville St., then proceeding south and turning east at 41st Ave. Turn south again at Main St. to reach Marine Dr.
(Continued because #RUclips won't let me post all in one comment) 21:00 I agree but I would also add the fact that they need platform safety barriers (doesn't matter if it's full or partial height doors) since they have no passenger platform safety features like the #SkyTrain mentioned earlier and upcoming Metro Tunnel stations in Melbourne, #Australia. Furthermore, until platform safety barriers and fare gates are installed at every #WCE station, would modify a couple stations with #SkyTrain and #WCE services so direct access between general public area and any fare paid zone is consistent while also provisioning new transit services, station features, and more. Those are Moody Centre and Waterfront. Waterfront overall needs to be upgraded so transfers between #SkyTrain lines is all within gated fare paid zone while direct access between public area and #WCE is fully not gated or use its own fare paid zone setup. Also, Waterfront needs its #SkyTrain Mezzanine level located on the west side of the station connected to CF Waterfront Centre and located near #CanadaPlace be extended to the east side of the #SkyTrain Expo and Stanley lines platform and split the existing #SkyTrain access elevator into two with the existing one serve the #SkyTrain Mezzanine/#Canada line level and Street/#WCE Mezzanine/overpass level and the new one located around the center of the #SkyTrain Expo and Stanley lines platform so there is less congestion around and inside the elevators while also providing accessible covered direct access to more destinations. Furthermore, with new #Canada line access via expanded #SkyTrain Mezzanine level, the existing #Canada line east entrance be permanently closed so the #Canada line platforms and tracks can be shifted and extended respectively closer to the Expo and Stanley lines while accommodating express tracks and side platforms, additional switches and longer platforms (assuming at maximum length design) included. Fare gates currently located at the existing east #Canada line entrance and #SeaBus, #WCE, and east Expo line entrance would be relocated to the #SeaBus level (NOT the overpass) and expanded #SkyTrain Mezzanine levels. For #WCE, if Mezzanine relocation is necessary for whatever reason (e.g. aging structures, platforms, etc.), it would be built across from the existing Mezzanine. Ideally, the #WCE tracks and platforms be lowered so #WCE Mezzanine and #SeaBus overpass walkway be on the same level as the expanded #SkyTrain Mezzanine while still able to accomodate the tall double decker trains and potential future overhead electrification. Regarding Moody Centre, the existing regular and emergency overhead walkways would prevent potential future #WCE service expansion to all-day bi-directional as they are positioned too low. Also, the existing regular overhead walkway doesn't provide any direct access to Rocky Point Park. Moody Centre #SkyTrain platforms needs to be shifted west to the Moody St overpass. This is so there is more direct accessible access to the Moody St overpass while having a higher Mezzanine level to accommodate the #WCE and freight trains, and #WCE island platform replacement to support backup second track while also provisioning all-day bi-directional services whenever CP Rail agrees. For the #SkyTrain island platform, this can be achieved with swapping the positions of the center pocket track (switches and access tracks included) and island platform. This include building the new Moody St entrance and new #SkyTrain platform, removing the existing pocket track switches, installing new pocket track segments (rails and guideway segments included) east of the new platforms and existing pocket track with provisions for merging express tracks (a timed overtake express segment western end), and building a new under (preferred for all-weather protection and retail units addition without creating a visual blight from outside) or over pass east of the station for transit exchange access and additional public pedestrian track crossing. For #WCE, to accommodate #SkyTrain express tracks and side platforms, backup track usage, and potential future all-day bi-directional services, new #WCE platform would be an island and the #WCE platform access would be at the east pedestrian crossing and east of the #SkyTrain platforms, CP tracks would be shifted north, or both. One additional #WCE platform access would be located east from an overpass based on the Moody Centre TOD plans for a Murray St overpass. Alternatively, if express #SkyTrain service between #Coquitlam Central and Moody Centre is more viable than having the Moody Centre #WCE stop, then express #SkyTrain should replace this #WCE segment. No other station with #WCE services as of this comment have such setups like Moody Centre and Waterfront currently. In addition, would create new #WCE routes including a South #Vancouver-#Coquitlam route with Arbutus tram-train transfers, a #Coquitlam-Pacific Central route with #SkyTrain transfers in #Burnaby and #Vancouver, and a #Coquitlam-North Shore route with new Second Narrows multimodal bridge and Thorton tunnel rerouting to the new bridge, expansion, and double tracking. Overall, good ideas though would revise them to be less #Vancouver-centric and more grid-like.
7:15 IMO, the only barrier to long trains on the Skytrain network is the switches. Let's say a 150m skytrain stops at a 120m stop, there train needs to fit between the switches on either (sometimes both) ends of the station. Once the Mark 1's are nowhere in the system, this is completely doable by reconfiguring all the trains as end-to-end A-C-C-C-B types rather than A-B,A-B types (Which is how the Mark II's were all configured.) That said, that could also take advantage of the larger baggage/bike area in the B car by encouraging bikes to load and unload at stations that have a "bike platform" which could be a small extension to the platform with a spanish solution that leads to a bike/wheelchair ramp. 9:07 you're overlooking the part where the Canada Line goes under the river delta, and is below sea level. So "making a deeper platform tunnel" is probably a bad idea, due to liquefaction risk in an earthquake. Pretty much the Canada Line is a series of compromises. Making the platforms longer probably not that hard, but likely uneconomical. Likewise development in Richmond is supposed to be "restricted" to just the built up area for the same liquification risk. The the tall structures are (supposedly) require piles driven into the bedrock. To keep pressure off the ALR in Tsawwassen-Delta-Surrey-Langley, is also why density development is supposed to be focused around the city centers and transit network. 16:08: The only problem I see with some of these is that we don't have the data to back up which routes should be built as Skytrain aside from how they are serviced already by B-line Rapidbus's. Building more just to get to the downtown peninsula is just kicking the problems around IMO. What I'd do is focus on Metrotown (which is the highest elevation point on the Skytrain network) and build lines that either start, end or cross through there. Probably easier to suggest that now since the Current Mayor of Burnaby isn't standing in the way like the previous Mayor obstructed transit from being built.
I'm not sure where you're referring to the CL going "under the river delta" are you referring to the False Creek Inlet? I didn't suggest building a new lower platform level, I used this as an example of a major underground expansion conducted within Canada
In this video you talk about 'Gondolas'. But in this video there was no risk of people thinking that you were talking about BOATS. Firstly you said 'mountain gondolas' . Secondly you showed a clip of an aerial cableway. Thank you! (By the way, have you any experience of 3-S aerial cableways? There are a FEW in the alps. The three in the Swiss Alps I have been on all have cabins which take 25-30 passengers.
@@vincentng2392 Sorry Vincent. When Europeans (like me) talk about gondolas, we mean the boats which operate in Venice. More importantly, when talking about these Venetian boats, we always put the emphasis on the first syllable. If you do not believe me, listen to a recording of the operetta 'The Gondoliers'. As I said in a comment on another recent video from Reece, there was a proposal to build a 'gondola' up a mountain in the English Lake District. Even some readers of an English transport journal Local Transport Today thought boats were involved!
@@vincentng2392 If a North American opera/theatre company put on a production of The Gondoliers they would, like all other opera companies around the world, put the emphasis on the first syllable. (If they tried to put the emphasis on the second syllable, it would not fit in the music!)
3S gondola lifts (not boats) Take up more space. Yes, the cabins are bigger but more spread out to allow for loading. More smaller cabins can handle more passengers. Toulouse is a good example for 3S urban gondola.
The challenge with Calgary will be discussing transit without talking about building/neighbourhood density. I think the C-train system is quite well designed. However, because the density is so low around the stations, they are largely useless.
Thank you for pointing out we really need more cross-platform transfers and a much denser network. Also want to point out Delta and the ferry terminals were left out of this fantasy network. Would love to see a skytrain line going from Surrey Central through Delta, Ladner and terminating at Tsawwassen Ferry Terminal.
Absolutely love the way you say Olympic Village PROPER at 13:26. Still boggles my mind why the current Olympic Village station isn't actually in Olympic Village and is instead in this random, under Cambie bridge location that no one ever uses.
To be fair, the big empty lot next to the Cambie bridge is supposed to be filled in with more buildings, thus completing Olympic Village all the way up to the bridge and making the name make a bit more sense.... any day now....
that station was GREAT during the Olympics, when they had the trams running to Granville Island! they should never have covered the old railway line when they built the olympic village, that would be a solid tram corridor. it used to go all the way to science world
Great video and ideas! Moving to Victoria from Vancouver has highlighted to me the deficiencies of transit connections to the Tsawwassen and Horseshoe Bay ferry terminals. The connections exist and aren't terrible, but improvements could shift many people from taking cars on the ferries to walking or biking on. The Hullo passenger ferry between downtown Nanaimo to downtown Vancouver starts service in mid-August, 2023 and could point the way. Unfortunately, BC Ferries is stuck car-centric thinking and passenger-only ferries have always been private start-ups that can't survive a bad year and so they come and go. Obviously the transit connections have to be good on both sides and that's a whole other problem. It might be interesting to hear you dive into this (I can provide more details, info, etc.).
All looking good. However, you mainly focus on where you think the population will be in the future and that transport is a priority. For instance, I can't see the arbutus greenway ever being used for rapid transit - it's success as a walking/cycle path has been too great and you know how Vancouver loves cycling. Also the UBC extensions - you're likely to see one in the next ten years or so, but two? With the costs involved, and who would pay, not ever likely.
What's the average and highest frequencies on the sky train? Because lengthening trains (and more importantly station's platforms) may not be necessary or not to the same extent if there's room for higher frequency. Like they did in Paris by reducing headway to under 90 seconds on peak hours on automated lines. Or down to 60 seconds on some VAL metro systems. But maybe such high frequencies need rubber tire train's precision to be reached and maintained. Anyway, increasing frequency could be a cheaper way to increase capacity or be part of a two-way approach mix to higher capacity with more modest station lengthening and reduced headway. As whatever the train / platform length, a platform that feels crowded and where riders need to slalom between other passengers to distribute over its entire length will still be a bit of a deterrent for riders. Especially if the lengthened platforms don't get additional access / exit points. While a platform that doesn't even have time to fill up between trains gives a great sensation of efficiency to potential riders. Even if both had exactly the same capacity, a line with extreme frequency feels a lot more efficient and appealing than one with longer trains and less / usual frequency. Having more trains and much higher frequency on an automated line doesn't cost much compared to longer trains and platforms. Sometimes a 30 second difference is enough to drastically change capacity and the perception of riders. They'll be less likely to run for the door or to hesitate about taking the next train if the one in front of them is crowded. I know I certainly don't bother speeding up for the door nor hesitate to wait for the next one in Paris line M14 when I know the next departure is only 80 seconds later, not even the time to buy a drink from a machine on the platform... A "rapid-fire" frequency line is virtually almost like a travelator, schedules become irrelevant. So, I'm a strong supporter of the highest frequency noria of trains, especially if it can avoid having to spend too much on important lengthening of stations.
@@Droxal OK, but what is that frequency? Fully automated driverless / unattended systems can easily run train departures every 60 or 80 seconds on rubber tyres. A slightly longer separation on steel wheeled trains. So, the frequency on Skytrain may potentially be increased even higher, rather than the costly station lengthening. A systems / signaling upgrade may be needed for that but that's still much cheaper than extending platforms.
VCC Clark line "kinda in the middle of nowhere"? Walking to Emily Carr, Vancouver Community College. That's alot of students, professors and support staff travelling to nowhere every day. Maybe that's why we needed a station in the middle of nowhere to get people nowhere quickly.
Do you think Vancouver needs to specialize the sky train ? Right now it’s half commuter rail half metro. I think the sky train of the future becomes a metro while a commuter rail or at least express service would connect city centres across the region.
Like BART? Skytrain seems to be more metro like than commuter due to its frequencies than service that most rapid transit systems do: bringing people to downtown. There’s not much good corridors for regional rail yet without massive redesign and enhance of existing or abandoned freight railways and the grade crossing that come along with it that need to separated. Nor does it have the capacity in its trains to carry that much people unless having larger be longer trains than it has now. I guess why it’s easier to implement the Skytrain when it did start using some freight railways as it right of ways, though much has changed. Though I’m guessing they could implement express services onto the skytrain network due to did they have a third tracks then to do so in certain stations since the expo decades ago.
The biggest issue here is the limited space in Vancouver as it's an already built-up region. For comparison: The reason Chicago and NYC as well as the underground tracks of London were quite a big deal as the only railways which only were build there (to the point of legally restricted like in London) were street railways / tramways. Skytrain is thus a regional metro because it is the only viable way to build a railway network without resorting to demolition or streetcars.
Phase I should begin in Surrey. A parallel line down Scott Road and King George Boulevard connected by 72nd Avenue would address the affordable conditions in Surrey and North Delta. Building transit infrastructure in places like the West End or the North Shore would be so much more expensive than focusing on the South Shore. Surrey has the potential to be another Metropolitan Centre to the region.
As well as cross-platforming, existing skytrain stations need better integration with street scene. One in Port Moody is next to two massive car dealership lots and nothing else. Another is physically close to bars, parks and entertainment but the only entrance is on the other side and to reach them it's a 10 minute walk, not the 30 second walk it should be. Metrotown has one broken pedestrian skybridge - joke. Extending platforms is good but for smaller stations, as you said, doors can open selectively, provided the new models allow movement between carriages (which they do) Gondola will be epic. Build it! Your suggestions for POCO extension, plus Metrotown to North Shore via BCIT - beautiful but needs expansion to Horsehoe Bay. Bus stations and interchanges need to be covered and attractive structures. Phibbs Exchange looks like it belongs in 1990s Bosnia.
*Get real: Medellin in Colombia has a better public transit system than Vancouver. Vancouver’s is already overcrowded, trains on Sunday start too late and the earliest trains to Surrey are sardine packed. Vancouver’s political class is terribly shorted sighted. Stations are constantly being rebuilt: first the BC United Scrooge Party’s witch and gremlin’s toll gates that don’t work, secondly for the addition of toilets that should been included from the beginning, and then further building for more train cars which will be inadequate by the time they’re built, etc. The problem is the political appointees who run the system rely on cars and never regularly use the system. And I’ve just started about the stupidity that is the root cause of the problem.*
Langley doesn't deserve a skytrain?! Buddy you are wrong on that front. Sorry. Surrey and Langely have gotten MASSIVE in the last 10 years. We definitely deserve that lane now. Because it will be used.
I live in the Fraser Valley and use the West Coast Express daily. There’s an unbelievable amount of development happening in Langley, Abbotsford, and Chilliwack, so many people are moving out and they’re all ending up on Hwy 1 because the WCE just isn’t adequate for most people’s needs. Commuter rail along the corridor south of the Fraser is going to be desperately needed very soon, but I don’t see the province really taking it seriously at all.
This is so deeply satisfying. Wow! I'm so grateful to live near Millenium and Expo lines, and with this dream plan I would really be able to get around the lower mainland SO effectively. Right now I find that e-biking is the most efficient way to get most places in metro van, and I'd love to see the mobi bike system expanded and purchased by Translink so that it could be part of the transit system rather than a for-profit thing run by Rogers
7:10 I alos quite like the announcement on the S-stock on the circle line at some stations where the last cars doors do not open, and the text is "All doors in this car will not open here, plaese use other doors". But as the train is fully walkthrough that does not matter.
Hi Reece: Can you Become Mayor of Vancouver or head of trans link or BC minister of transport? That would be awesome. This was so interesting having just visited Vancouver. I’d say all lines need more capacity. I experienced crowds on all three lines. One question: where do you see trolleybuses fitting in the picture of Vancouver’s nec is adult low carbon future where we need more buses to be electric. Should trolleybuses that can automatically detach and then reconnect with wires be used on rapid bus routes? Do you think more routes should receive trolleys?
As a Greater Vancouver resident, this video got me very excited. Your plans make a lot of sense and would be a dream to see, especially after being a Skytrain user for the first 4 years of me living here. I almost thought you forgot to mention West Coast Express, haha. I used to live in Langley and am looking forward to the Skytrain finally coming out there. With the way the housing crisis is going, I would love for there to be bullet trains out to the Okanagan (e.g. Kelowna, 100 Mile, etc.). There's a ton of potential further out and it would be a great way to connect Metro Vancouver to the often forgotten North and North East part of BC that many people have/will move to for more affordable housing.
The issue with the Inlet Line having conventional motors is the steep grades in the North Shore. Any new line there would almost certainly be LIM based making it better for the Inlet Line to also use LIM.
Found this very interesting. I attended school in Langley 50 years ago and have visited the area many times after that including 3 weeks ago. (I live in Iowa). Every time i visit i am amazed the changes and all the changing skylines. Vancouver is the greatest and most beautiful metro area in North America.
Here me out, what about railless trams as the core system and from the last stops - monorail into suburbs? It would be the first city in the world to implement such visionary solution!
Rail less Trams? Like trolley buses? And why use monorail if Skytrain is already the better use of elevated railway in the region and he kinda already made videos on the pros and cons of monorails and trackless Trolleys
@@TheRandCrews it was a joke. It's a Chinese invention - both byd monorail and "railess trams" - which we call trolleys, both are pretty useless technology.
My biggest gripe with the Skytrain is how ungodly loud it is compared to many trains in Japan(despite being almost half the speed in most cases). I can hear the Skytrains come and go from my place on the other side of a decent sized mall (Brentwood). But when I was in Japan, a lot of trains make little noise to the point where you sometimes can't even hear them coming at the platform until they're less than 50m away (even in the subway). I hope that the new trains and the modifications will be enough to significantly reduce noise.10
I took the Skytrain on my way back from a visit to Tokyo actually (I live in Seattle, so I was taking it to pacific central) and this was also the very first thing I noticed. They are SO LOUD even going at half the speed.
I once looked at a place near Joyce-Collingwood to rent, and I decided against it because even with the windows closed, a block away from the tracks, I could still hear the SkyTrain enough that it would have been forever messing with my video recording/streaming if I lived there.
No metro area can be truly great if it is fickle in its transportation infrastructure. It requires good vision and the willingness to stay the course - actual implementation, ongoing maintenance, and upgrades.
How would UBC station be built? Would it be two island platforms? I figured it would be something like this: - Platform 1A: North Shore Line to Park Royal - Platform 1B: Millennium Line arrival only - Platform 2A: Millennium Line to Lafarge Lake - Douglas - Platform 2B: North Shore Line arrival only
9:56 I thought I heard somewhere that expanding the length of the Canada line trains beyond 2.5 or 3 cars is essentially impossible since the curves on some of the underground portions don’t allow for it
It's fascinating to think that Vancouver is actually located in N America while being miles ahead of the rest of the continent (though Montreal is catching up with the REM & Toronto with the Ontario line & Go Expansion - but definitly not crosstown). Building new transit continuously is the key, that's how Madrid, Istanbul, Paris, Shanghai and other cities in Eurasia build hundreds of km of undeground metro so affordibly, they keep improving their expertise while cities like London, New York or Montreal (which were transit havens in the past but have hardly no serious expansion plan today) lost it for being inactive too long, eg REM B instantly became as expensive as the 2nd avenue subway after being taken over by public ARTM. On the other hand, Paris and Istanbul metro systems are half the size of NYC and London's, but both will overtake them inroute lengh in just 10 years! But there's still hope, just as Montreal did with the CDPQ for the REM or Serbia is doing with RATP for the Belgrade metro. Hiring world-class companies to bring their expertise is the right thing to do; that's in fact how China started, they learned and no longer need these companies anymore, building Guanghzou 150km underground high speed line 18 for less than what Toronto spend on crosstown! A multiple-phased plan like the one you are proposing for Vancouver is great. Using and improving its elevated driverless light metro and TBM tunneling expertise with the Broadway extension during phases 1 & 2 would definitely help with planning and cutting costs for the higher scale Fraser line. I wouldn't be surprised if the companies that make the SkyTrain in Vancouver were hired by many transit authorities in the US or Canada in the future I would also add modern european tram lines as neighborhood connectors to the skytrain, Vancouver with its growing density is definitly suited for trams! Good job Vancouver, but please don't let the transit golden era train pass without getting onboard! be an example for the rest of N America
CDPQ infra wasn't such a great idea. Their proposition for the REM de l'Est was bad. There's a reason why they're not on that project anymore. The ARTM isn't doing much better though. The real price tag for their project was actually 17 billions, but they decided to add some esoteric calculations into the mix to raise it up all the way to 36 billions. Why would they do that, I have no idea, except to sabotage the project. Would be great to have someone like Reece at the ARTM.
@@alexseguin5245CDPQ wasn’t as good as European or Asian companies, but we must admit that they managed to build an entire 67km line for much less than what we usually spend
I think Vancouver also deserves a regional rail system- there are a surprising number of railway tracks in Vancouver that could get freight operation on them. Expanding not just down the WCE corridor but also down other routes. BC has a few small cities in the Fraser valley which could get regional rail service.
The best bang for the buck to expand our existing hub-and-spoke network is bike rooms. The bike-shed of, say, a SkyTrain line is 5x the size of its walk-shed, and with an e-bike your trip will likely be faster than the bus, and not dependent on service frequency. A 5-7 minute ride to the station is probably the trade-off point for commuters. Considering our climate, bike rooms that have a wash-up and drying station, and are (lightly) heated so commuters don't return to a wet rusty bike would be an amenity users would likely pay a small monthly fee to access.
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Living at UBC, I am constantly appalled at the ride quality of even some of TransLink's newest buses used on the 84 and R4 lines. I would much prefer if the existing trolleybus network were (re)transitioned into an extensive tram network with full right-of-ways, so that passengers who aren't in as much of a hurry can enjoy a smooth ride at the street level and help to further wean Vancouver off of its still very significant obsession with cars and motorcycles. Why does TransLink hate trams so much?
The biggest thing I think people overlook about the Sea to Sky is that up until 2003 we had daily bidirectional rail service from North Vancouver to Prince George via Squamish and Lillooet. Bring back BC Rail!
rmtransit i not sure of your age but i was 8 back in 86 when the skytrain opened and knew it was a game changer for vancouver it put us on the map but now we need more transit and another way to cross the north shore there is talk of skytrain from the north shore to metrotown station via brentwood
The short length of the Vancouver skytrains have always absolutely perplexed me and, to me, is the perfect example of the city’s historical lack of foresight in pretty much everything they do.
I think the fraser line should be used as an express route and not just a faster skytrain. Expanding the width of the existing 'grandview cut' rail corridor with better earthworks to fit another double track would allow full-size commuter trains to travel to Pacific Central relatively easily. It could bet connected to production way with an extension of the gondola, a station at commercial Broadway and then stop right beside main street. Once you have this express rail corridor to the centre of the city there are a ton of different ways to funnel trains into it. As you say in many of your videos, you should use the right technology for the right situation. Heavy rail makes the most sense for a service that is taking pressure off the local rapid transit service.
Vancouver, the city, has bad council. The only thing they can think of is taxes. As everyone knows, if you're not making progress, you're holding back. Already there, the West Express would be a game-changer if just it runs more frequently
I would like to hear more of your thoughts on Westcoast Express and reginal rail in greater Vancouver. It seems like there are existing rail corridors that could connect Surrey to Abbotsford and maybe Chilliwack, and North Van to Squamish and maybe Whistler. Do you think those are viable options? Where would you put these projects in your priority list?
I agree with you: the BC Hydro Interurban right of way into the Fraser Valley still exists and BC Rail used to run passenger service to Squamish and beyond until the beginning of this century. Short version: I understand from this episode that Reese thinks the old Interurban line is non-viable and prioritizes Sea-to-Sky rail service as secondary to an improved West Coast Express. Long version (could be mansplaining?): Reese is emphatic that transit in Metro Vancouver will only grow with the unique strong reliable backbone that is SkyTrain. He claims Translink has a pattern of receiving lotsa money for new projects (capital budget) but comparatively little for running them year over year (operating budget). He wants TransLink to stop doing and build more Skytrain lines because it's cheaper and faster to put in service than almost any other public transit on Turtle Island. INTERURBAN? The Interurban right of way has been jampacked with freight for sixty years. Reese proposes the Fraser Line, an elevated 140km/h express line using a different corridor: Hwy 1. Skytrain is too slow to reach these speeds and its trainsets are too small to move ever more passengers. TransLink needs a bold new project ASAP! BUT... isn't TransLink bad at keeping new projects funded? In this case, Reese seems to think a new commuter rail project is worth the risk. Population projections for south of the Fraser are big enough to support something with higher speed and capacity than Skytrain. TransLink's proven viaduct and track engineering can support any modern suburban or regional trainsets. Once the Fraser Line is built where people in Surrey and beyond need to go for their everyday trips, TransLink will be hard pressed to cheap out on maintenance. Reese's Fraser Line avoids endless talks with massive corporate giants CN and CP about reclaiming or sharing the Interurban. Also, the right of way goes through forest and farmland nowhere near commuter hubs. The Fraser Line would remind everyone in congested traffic that a train can move them where they're going faster and cheaper and cleaner. Also, elevated tracks allow connections to the already elevated Surrey stations. Reece's new interurban seems relevant to people who want to stop driving. SEA-TO-SKY? Reece mentions that Sea-to-Sky is already a commuter route and that a West Coast Express style train needs to be considered. He also mentions that he needs a whole episode to deal just with WCE! I think Reese would also need a separate episode for the Sea-to-Sky. I'd want him to mention that BC Rail used to run weekend and holiday Sea-to-Sky service for skiers as well as year-round regional trains a few times a week right up to the end of the 1990s. The 2010 Olympic highway improvements did next to nothing for regional bus service. At least one group puts out a news release every year for a study or proposal for a pilot rail service or partial or full resumption of local or regional or express trains to Squamish and Whistler. SIGH. Reese restricts himself to WCE. He doesn't mention that this was a brand new and bizarre project in the 1990s. BC Transit got CP to give passenger service access to their North-of-Fraser subdivision. I would think BC Transit knew that Surrey and Langley were growing faster than Maple Ridge or Mission but something is better than nothing? Anyways, then BC Transit bought some 1980s double-decker rolling stock from Toronto's GO Transit and started weekday rush hour commuter service in 1995 to some fanfare. Reese reveals that TransLink is putting version 3.0 of SkyTrain cars into service this fall... yet there are no plans to replace 40-yr-old WCE trainsets! Our host seems irked by this situation. Reese recommends that WCE needs to run both directions, every day, with hourly service at minimum, which will at least 😀require new trainsets. He doesn't mention that this increase in service isn't really being bold so much as fair. WCE was a new project back in the day. New projects are supposed to be bad for TransLink. Yet those double-deckers are still there, running successfully for a quarter of a century. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? Well, yes, Reese might say in some future episode, that new non-SkyTrain project might still be successful. In that twenty-five years, while North-of-Fraser hasn't grown as fast as South-of-Fraser, population has grown while WCE service remains almost exactly the same. TransLink has successfully offered a minority of residents a lift to work and back during weekday rushhours and everyone else gets crappy suburban bus service. That doesn't seem like a plan to help more people live without a car. Reese cuts to the chase: TransLink must show the North Fraser that their trains can work as a regular regional transit option for everyone, not just for weekday travel peak directions. I infer that he wants WCE to get its act together so Sea-to-Sky can feel confident about reliable rail service that will show commuters, tourists and residents that cars aren't a requirement for practical travel. Reese seems to be looking at where most of us are going to live in Metro Van and wants to address those regions first and fastest. I look at Surrey and see multilane traffic jams over 100km in both directions that aren't solved by one-more-lane-ism. Why not put long, fast trains right over the freeway so people see them beat the traffic every time? I look at Sea-to-Sky and see 2- or 3-lane traffic jams on weekends and holidays over 100km in peak directions. There's a twisty train line next to/below/near the improved highway. That line used to run passenger services when the road wasn't so good. How often will it beat traffic today? How many trains a day will carry everyone? How many cars per train? Maybe we oughta lookit somewhere else first. Thanks for reading this far. Maybe the trains will come when our leaders realize no more room can be spared for one more lane. Maybe we can't wait that long.
I didn't realize only opening some doors of a train wasn't super common. We do that here in little old NZ and the recorded voice just says "Please disembark from the three cars at the north end of the train only" super easy
As a Vancouverite, I have some thoughts. I'm not sure the skytrain running along Hastings St makes a lot of sense outside of the specific context of connecting the north shore to the rest of the skytrain network which is best done along the alignment heading towards Metrotown. Especially as a City of Vancouver only project I'd be real reluctant to use your chance there instead of one of the other projects. Speaking of I also think terminating the North Shore line at Metrotown is also a mistake, it's the right area but a nightmare station since it would involve tunneling under some of the densest parts of Burnaby without even a road to align with. I really really think that Patterson would be a better terminus station ( and perhaps through-running station if the extension to 41st st happens ) since there's just more room around that to build, as well as a road heading strait north from there so you're not digging under everyone's buildings and it takes some pressure off of what's already a busy station, Metrotown doesn't need more traffic running through it. Additionally shifting things a bit west lets you come north down Patterson towards the Hospital and EA Vancouver campus before swerving out east to hit BCIT and from then on continue along the Translink-proposed route. I'm also a bit dubious about the Fraser line, while getting another crossing is certainly a good thing I'm really not convinced of getting all the way down to White Rock ( population 22k ) or the extension to northern Langley/Walnut Grove ( population 23k ). This isn't to say that those sorts of populations should never get better service but that'd be a hard sell while Maple Ridge ( population 95k ) remains completely unserved, it also has the merit of being laid out in a far more linear fashion along hwy 7 compared to the vaguely circular sprawl around Langley + the Walnut Grove patch. I'm also a bit doubtful about dragging the terminus all the way downtown, Vancouver isn't Toronto where downtown can at least claim to be a reasonable approximation of the geographic center of the metro area, good connectivity downtown is great but I don't think every service needs to terminate there and I think there'd be a lot of benefit to making a major interchange station somewhere between Rupert and Brentwood on the Millenium lines, wherever the Inlet Line intersects with it. All told I think keeping some of the Surrey components of the Fraser line but dragging the Langley end over the river into Maple Ridge intersecting with another line running through there from the Poco and terminating the western point of the Fraser line at an appropriate point on a north-south running line. The other component that's missing is regional rail, now obviously there'd need to be some real convincing of outlying municipalities to play ball if there was going to be any serious investment but I think we need to start planning on what it might look like, where a good interchange might be ( just a bit west of Brentwood in my opinion since there's an existing rail tunnel already) to support longer ranged higher speed trips up the valley, to the ferries, south of the border and up the sound. Partially because as the Burrard pennisula densifies it's going to rapidly become harder and more expensive to find space for a large station.
We need a dedicated east-west skytrain line to cut travel between the expo and Canada line. Currently there is no way to get from Surrey/Langley to Richmond/YVR in a reasonable amount of time, especially if traveling with luggage to/from the airport. There are two route that I can think of for this. The first one is a new line along marine drive connecting 22nd ave station and Marine drive station. I’ve heard this idea thrown around recently. The second is a route from Scott road that goes down the SFPR, crosses the Fraser at the Massey tunnel (integrated tracks built with the tunnel replacement) then connects back to Brighouse station in Richmond.
As a fraser valley resident I wholeheartedly agree with having improvements to the west coast express and some of the other intercity connections. I can tell you, the BCTransit route 66 from Chilliwack to loughheed isn't enough in its current state, and with the limited times the WCE runs, its all we have to get into Vancouver. and honestly with the highway improvements that should be finishing up in the next couple years, while they cant improve connections all the way to Chilliwack, they can at least improve express busses into abbotsford. be it continuing the 555 and 66 parallel all the way to highstreet or even the PnR near UFV, adding loughheed/carvolth to baby expresses on the 66 (instead of the busses that run like once an hour going from Chilliwack to loughheed), or adding new lines, with the HOV lane extension and other infrastructure, they seem to have made room for it to be possible.
South Marine Drive definitely needs a light rail connecting all the new developments, and there's plenty of room on the Kent Avenue corridor. The only weird part is Market Crossing at Byrne and Marine Way as that was designed as a car-centric box store plaza and also the risk of inundation when the river rises over the flood plain; but it would service the industrial business parks very well.
My only real disagreement with Reece's laundry list here is that it doesn't include enough regional trains. West Coast Express should be expanded on a new corridor to Surrey and down to the US border to serve as a future line for HSR to Seattle/Portland (although for now could be shared with Amtrak).This would be similar to Caltrain in SF sharing tracks with CAHSR in the future. Additionally, there should be a train from Lonsdale Quay to Whistler through Squamish that runs at least hourly.
The issue with that is we just do not have good rail corridors for doing what you are suggesting. This is why more SkyTrain is likely the solution, you are going to need more tunnels and viaducts and smaller more frequent trains make that more practical
@@RMTransit for the corridor to Squamish/Whistler, we already have the tracks (they're owned by the BC government but leased to CN as part of the BC Rail scandal). For new tracks to the border, the easy thing to do would be to include a rail tunnel as part of the George Massey tunnel replacement project. It's not as direct as going to Whalley, but would be cheaper, and could service the ferries in Tsawassen for a rail/ferry link to Schwartz Bay.
@@RMTransit For the first line, yeah, you start with slower service and try to improve it over time. It's not like BC Rail didn't have passenger service on this line before (which they did, for a long time). It's also better than building more lanes for the Sea-to-Sky yet again. For the second line, it's more direct than the current Amtrak alignment which takes an hour just to get to the border, and it could service Richmond, Delta (with an extension to the ferries), and also South Surrey before crossing the border.
WCE commentary from someone who lives North of the Fraser: - WCE doesn't stop in Burnaby. After Port Moody, it doesn't stop until Waterfront. This is a huge deadzone that I'd like to see addressed in any future expansion. Especially as someone who has always been anchored to Burnaby instead of Vancouver, even after I moved to the suburbs. - The number of trains were rolled back to even fewer rides with the pandemic, as ridership fell and freight demands went up. Translink has struggled to get those previous timeslots back; I think they've only restored one of the several that were removed. - WCE's primary constraint is that they lease the tracks from a freight line, rather than owning them. I know you weren't trying to make a big section about the WCE, and did mention that they should build their own tracks. But I think an explicit mention of the problem has the chance to significantly improve visibility of it to your audience while only adding 0.5-1 sentence. It took me years living out here to find out that this was the problem.
Suprised you didn't mention anything specific for Richmond? Would extending the canada line there be a viable project or would improved bus service, (What you talked about in the video) be sufficient.
Sorry to break it to you but investment into this kind of infrastructure IS politics. It’s inherently political, the alternative being the kind of car-culture/conservative convergence we’re also seeing these days
If Vancouver gets more regional rail, it would make more sense to send them through Pacific Central anyway despite the significance of Waterfront as a major hub. The current commuter line should probably run hourly off peak all day and maybe 1-2hrs on weekends with a stop at the PNE to encourage different trip types at different times of day
Especially on how there’s more platforms on Pacific Central and able to be a hub with a connection on the Skytrain nearby. Practically just storage space for Via Rail Canadian and West Coast express trains
Agreed, although I wish they would do some pedestrian improvements to the route between pacific and the science center station. I live in seattle, and took a trip recently that involved going through YVR, which involved me taking the cascades to pacific and then taking skyrail to the airport. Having to walk through the parking lot and cross two roads of busy traffic without shelter from the rain and little light was not the most pleasant experience, and put a bit of a damper on what was otherwise a very convenient and pleasant trip.
@RMTransit aren't there high density developments in Richmond? BTW, I'm moving to Toronto and would love go meet. I'm a transit geek as well and would enjoy guidance of a local :)
One major thing that has to be added to this plan. Taking away car lanes on main commerical corridors that define the city's culture: commercial, main, cambie, Broadway, 4th, east Pender are all practically 6 lane freeways at the moment!
The two things that really jump out at me are: -have you given any thought to posting maps separately, even as a patreon and/or substack only thing? -are you sure the Hastings line should be an Expo extension rather than tied into the Stanley Line (I was initially kinda taken aback by not treating is as a branch of the inlet line, but actually think I'm on side with more consideration of how well interlining works globally)? I suppose it's would be a pretty quick reconfiguration with the infrastructure built out as described... I do also wonder if a Stanley Park branch actually makes more sense for the Stanley line than an initial terminal along the lines of Denman/Davie or Chico/Beach with the intent of the extension through routing all trains south. Something of an aside, but no discussion of closing the Lions Gate to cars? I've actually become kinda sympathetic to it presuming it would come with a full Waterfront - Park Royal - Horshoee Bay BRT
Probably a small box carriage in the middle of the gangways, imagine like the new Metrolink Arrow train except the middle carriage is not an engine and in a light metro proportions instead
It would just be a shorter version of the end cars, they have not made any yet - I'd guess they'd order entirely new longer trains rather than adding brand new middle cars to trains which are now up to ~15 years old
Weekend service for the west coast express to mission. Rapid bus could be a substitute during the weekends. Need to get Rapid transit to Abbotsford. Some kind of rapid transit from delta area to Langley Abbotsford area. The Fraser valley north and south is the elephant in the room. You need a car in those areas. You can build affordable higher density housing in the Fraser valley.
Many ambitious plans but personally not a fan of the shuttle from Lougheed to Columbia idea. That portion of the system already gets less service than the Surrey branch, in general, I know because of less ridership. For example at night the service get drastically reduced in favour of the Surrey branch.
I know RM said he doesn't like fantasy transit, but it's still important to advocate for bigger and better services when cities lag behind.
discussing what CAN be done is how we determine what SHOULD be done
I think he doesn't like Fantasy maps that are unrealistic, but ones that try to be are Good!
It's all about balancing some degree of realism and understanding of existing land use and travel patterns with reasonable projects / timelines
@@RMTransit This is the key to me; fantasy can absolutely be a circlejerk, but when done seriously is an important part of the conversation.
I'd say there are "propositional" transit maps, and fantasy transit maps.
This video was very much an example of a propositional transit map.
One is serious, the other is like the transit version of a gingerbread and candy village.
There's something about looking at fantasy transit maps that are so appealing to me. Especially how they highlight areas of cities that are more important than they otherwise seem for a person who is unfamiliar with the city
I think thats they key, you need to have an honest understanding of existing land use and travel patterns to create a map that feels . . . . reasonable
That's called autism and a little touch of it is like a superpower
@@lance-biggums as someone who probably doesn't have autism and doesn't know too much about it, what do you mean?
You mean, like Catbus?
@@lance-biggums hahaha this is so true
They first started talking about the Elizabeth line Line in about 1942, so there is still time for it to become a reality.
Ah yes; the Elizabeth line Line...
I don't think with how fast Vancouver is growing it can afford to wait so long!
Crossrail 2/Chelsey-Hackney line has also been in the pipes since around the same time 🙂
@@ricequackers Indeed. Maybe in another 40 years, we will see that. Will it be the Charles Line, the William Line, or maybe even the George Line?
@@katrinabryce The Republic line ? 😂😇
There should be a rail connection to both ferry terminals as they are major transportation hubs.
Perhaps instead of to UBC, the Inlet Line could take the Stanley line’s route south of the river to Tsawwassen. In doing so, the greater feeder lines can transfer onto it with direct access to the TFT and bus access to Horseshoe Bay via Park Royal
Bicycle routes and parking need to be connected to all other forms of transportation.
Bicycles, ebikes, electric cargo bicycles, robo taxis and escooters are great options for last mile, short distance travel.
Walking, running, bicycles, escooters, green open spaces, electric buses, water ferries and trams are all parts of a good transportation system and need to have connections to each other.
As much as the ferries are major, I don't think they currently justify rail or will in the foreseeable future - much more bus service is probably fine!
I don't think that is needed. If there are enough foot passengers to justify rail to Horseshoe or Tsawwassen, ferries direct from DT Vancouver to Nanaimo and Victoria would likely be cheaper for Translink and faster for the passengers. At least with a north shore line the bus connection to Horseshoe Bay should be faster and more reliable.
Personally, I think BC ferries just needs to offer passenger ferry service from waterfront to Victoria. It's crazy to me that nothing like that exists...
I think people underestimate how fast Surrey is growing. Surrey will soon pass Vancouver in population and the transit offerings for many areas are shockingly bad, if existent at all. Vancouver has a lot more dense corridors to easily expand but the delayed approach to Surrey's mobilization scares me a bit.
Surrey and Langley has the greatest potential for density and development in the region guessing that’s why the Expo expanded to those areas. I’m guessing Surrey Central might actually be a Central station when it expands down south, north east or even south west being a more crosstown
Yup, in 30 years we’ll be wondering why we weren’t planning for skytrain on Scott road, 200st, etc.
Surrey Transit is the worse. The service is always delayed, especially for a Rapid Bus. In my honest opinion, building the SkyTrain from Surrey to Langley is truly a waste of money. I'd rather use that money to build an LRT line from Surrey Central SkyTrain directly to Guildford Mall, because that's where everybody goes in Surrey after they get off the SkyTrain at Surrey Central.
The current route of the Rapid Bus in Surrey is truly unreliable. It either comes very late or there are two Rapid Buses arriving in a row. It's just ridiculous. After building the LRT lines from Surrey Central to Guildford, the Rapid Buses can concentrate from Newton to Surrey Central, and from Scott Road to Surrey Central instead. After that, Surrey roads will be less congested. In the future, I'd suggest they build an LRT line from Newton to Surrey Central as well, to further eliminate the congested areas of Surrey.
The government in Surrey under Doug McCullum, did not understand nor cared about Surrey residents at all. He wasted Surrey's tax dollars on useless projects, like the Surrey to Langley SkyTrain that nobody asked for. That's why Surrey residents kicked him and his useless party out of the mayor's office immediately. The new mayor, Brenda Locke is trying to fix everything Doug McCullum did previously.
@@thuydoan7496 I think the Surrey Langley skytrain is far more useful for people than an LRT to the mall. People are able to get to school and work downtown or anywhere else along the way so much easier, freeing up both traffic in Surrey and on the trans Canada.
@@jackdonohue7893 I don't think you live in Surrey to know the routes. It is always packed on the Rapid bus, and traffic is usually stuck from Newton bus station to Surrey Central SkyTrain station to Guildford Mall afterwards. People who live in Langley can take the Trans Canada highway just fine, because it isn't congested.
I would love to see a canada line expansion that goes past Richmond into the Ladner Delta/Tsawassen region. It would really clear up traffic congestion in the tunnel. My dream would be stops at Ironwood, Cascades Casino, Ladner Bus Exchange, Tsawassen Mills, and Termanating at Tsawassen Ferry Terminal. I think this would be a really positive development change and could get a lot of cars of the road and encourage more cycling in these regions that are nearly entirely car dependent.
That plan looks great! Just three suggestions.
1 revive the Olympic village LRT and possibly make a Vancouver tram network that connects with arbutus, west end and Olympic village.
2 extend the Canada line to north Vancouver with the Inland line at a mega tc by the rocky mountaineer station.
3 merge Granville and city centre stations into a single stop. This would allow for a major downtown hub in central Vancouver and not cause any confusion for new riders. Plus get customers from Richmond and Yvr to Chinatown, pacific central station, and surrey.
Merging the stations probably is a good idea
1. 100%
2. The Canada Line yearns to cross the inlet, but according to the BIRT study this would necessitate a re-build of the Canada Line north of Yaletown in order to get to the required depth. Maybe worth it?
3. Do you mean simply relabelling the stations, or actually upgrading them into a single integrated one? That transfer is presently awful, but mostly unnecessary once the Broadway Subway opens. The only thing I could see that would justify upgrading the station with some sort of tunneled pathed to each other's platforms is if the Expo line is extended north towards West Vancouver.
@@adamjamesburnett It just doesn't make sense though. A tunnel there is a ~billion dollars, and saves ~5 minutes, you have to put the water side stations super deep increasing access time, eliminating the time savings. While the seabus just takes 15 minutes, and can easily put more boats for higher frequency if needed.
Connecting them within the fare paid zone.
@@chiliishot but this billion could be extended a bit more to serve north Vancouver direct with Canada line trains, no transfers, all under ground. This would not only shield commuters from the freezing Canadian winters, but provide north Vancouver with some well needed north south in addition to (including what RM transit added) east west sky train (or should I say earth train ahahahah) coverage. Not to mention a mega transfer hub, which sound pretty sweet
I feel this plan is somewhat Vancouver centric.
In this arrangement, surrey and Langley remain as commuter based housing oceans. Surely it makes more sense to build more office space in surrey central and Langley city so people can work closer to home, and improve connections between different areas of the south of fraser with better transit. After some 60 years of construction, all we have are 3 branch lines that all meet in the same place, which would make it impossible to really move around surrey if you don’t live in, or are going to, surrey central.
A network of Canada line esque, lower capacity elevated skytrain lines to better connect the south of Fraser region will be necessary to reduce car traffic and usage, so I propose:
A line running from Scott road to Newton, via 120th and 72nd to act as an upgrade to the R-6 when it reaches capacity.
An extension of the north branch of the Fraser line down 200th to meet Langley central expo at a cross platform transfer
A line running from guildford mall south along 152st then curving around north Fleetwood to intersect the 160st expo station, and then running along 84ave and south down 152st and west along 72ave to act as an extension to the Scott road line.
A new east-west line starting at 160st expo and then running west along 88ave creating connections with both sides of the Scott line, and the south branch of the fraser line, and then running over a pair of rail bridges to stop in queensboro and then terminate at 22st station in new west.
If knight street can get a 7 car expo skytrain line, and arbutus can get a tram train, then surely Scott road, and 200th should get it aswell.
Great video! Please do make that dedicated West Coast Express video - it would be so nice to see an expanded longer distance and more frequent passenger rail service. How nice would it be to take a weekend trip from Coquitlam to Chilliwack by train?!
Or even to Abbotsford cause the railways divides by Mission to go North or South
Yeees. We need a West Coast Express expansion video!
Sorry to harsh your mellow but WCE will likely be cut this year...
Crayoning with Reece is one of my favorite series. Would love to see this for more cities
Surrey and Langley simply have so much potential when it comes to density thanks to the Expo Line expansion. These cities need to realize that the reason the housing crisis in North America exists because there isn't enough high-density housing, let alone affordable housing! Cars in NA are seen as a symbol of freedom, but for those who don't have or can't drive a car, having walkable cities with solid transit is freedom. And for the Lower Mainland region to get to a true walkable transit region, it needs to improve its regional rail. There needs to be bi-directional service north of the Fraser, and south of the river an entirely new line like Chilliwack - Abbotsford - Langley - Surrey etc.
Ideally this would be through-running, cross Burrard Inlet near Stanley Park, and continue up the Sea-To-Sky Highway to Whistler or Pemberton. It needs trains to the ferry terminals at Horseshoe Bay and Tsawwassen (and perhaps a light-rail shuttle to the Point Roberts border so people can walk across to Port Roberts if they want to), train ferries, and regional rail on Vancouver Island. The island USED to have VIA rail service, the linear pattern of development there is good for rail, and the corridor for it remains intact, it just needs maintenance. Of course for all this to work, the communities it would connect would have to have effective local transit as well.
There’s not really a housing crisis in America, only in Canada. Americans earn much higher salaries and have significantly lower housing prices.
Only California and New York have housing as expensive as Canada but the average salary in these two states is about $100,000 USD whereas the average salary in Canada is $40,000 USD. But, most parts of the US like Texas has housing several times cheaper than Canada
I think Vancouver's current plans are pretty sensible, like the North Shore-Metrotown line seemingly being next in line without much controversy, but yeah I do agree that mode choice and a faster line South of the Fraser are issues. The West End is also a continual blindspot of the network.
So I think your blueprint is pretty good.
Only controversy is those north shore NIMBYS rather wanting a expansion of Lions Gate bridge than Skytrain or RapidBus
Thanks for watching!
@TheRandCrews they'll reach end of life soon so it's better to focus on the opinion of the still living when the project is planned to materialize
the Park Royal Metrotown line is Stupid Stupid Stupid. Build a transit tunnel under Stanley Park to link up with the Expo line.
Bowinn Ma and the NDPs do not want to even talk about that link as it will open a dialogue on the need to build a 6 lane road tunnel under the park too.
Please please do a video on Vancouver regional rail! We need a heavy rail connection south-east through the valley south of the Fraser, connecting Chilliwack, Abbotsford, Langley, and Surrey to Vancouver with faster and long-distance service, and north to Squamish and Whistler. Track to Whistler already exists, and in the valley there are existing sections that could be used, and new track would not be difficult to build, as much of it would be crossing farmland or running alongside/inside highways.
Not from Vancouver but would love to watch
New high-speed route (200kmph capable) along mostly existing right of ways. Pacific Station -> Braid(skytrain) - -> Scott Rd -> Nordel (s. end of alex fraser), -> Panorama Ridge -> 152nd -> 176 -> to the border. Now you've built the 1/4 quarter of a fast rail line to Seattle, and added hugely needed capacity from South Surrey (missing in your plans).
Extend Canada Lline south, over the Fraser on the new crossing (bridge/tunnel project), to Tswassassen Mills and the ferry terminal)
Expo and Canada Lines are already at capacity, building it out to Langley is going to be a colossal mess; as the trains are already full when they get to New West in the morning; you need an alternate route to get people off of skytrain for those in Surrey.
100% agree with you, maybe something north of HWY 1 that can connect to the millennium line and go as far east as High Street in Abby( which will help with us people in the FV)
Even the LIRR has cross-platform transfers! On the Montauk Branch, part of my ride to NYC is getting off at Babylon for either the express or local train to Penn Station and it's a simple walk across the platform. Cross-platform transfers are simple yet very effective thing for a system to have. And agreed about high-density housing! As more people become environmentally aware, on top of those who either can't afford a car or can't physically or mentally drive one, building transit-oriented development is a must as a way to solve the housing crisis.
Hangzhou for example has the Regent International apartment building home to 7,500 people (according to JR Urbane Network; though people have exaggerated to say 10K to 20K), workspaces, a mall, and is connected to two Hangzhou Metro lines! The Hangzhou Metro itself went from one line in 2012 to 13 lines as of 2023 and over 500 km! And that's not mentioning the fact Chongqing has a 19-story residential building with a monorail station right inside it (it has noise reduction equipment to isolate it from the residences). More companies are evolving to have an urban mindset, like Costco which already has an urbanized Vancouver location next to Stadium-Chinatown station. IKEA has taken a sustainable approach as well in Vienna!
Something that needs to be considered is a Connection to YVR to various emerging Downtown Cores. YVR to/from Surrey Central should be heavily considered given that Surrey Central is positioned to be Metro Vancouver's Next downtown
No, that is not necessary. The route directly from Surrey to Richmond does not have any major businesses nor major residential areas. It is practically still farm land there, so there's no need for a SkyTrain route. That is the disadvantage of living in Surrey. It is far away from Vancouver. You can still get to YVR from Surrey by way of the Expo and Canada lines, or you can take the double decker bus directly from Surrey to Richmond as well.
Hey Reece, curious on your thoughts about how to handle the Delta and other south of YVR connections. It's always been strange how not smooth the connection between the ferries and rapid transit network is, and that deficiency does seem to drive quite a bit of car-dependency (with all the problems that brings for traffic etc)
Especially as Victoria *does* have dedicated express busses connecting the ferries.
I think better bus service is honestly probably the solution, perhaps looking at other terminal sites too
@@RMTransit it would be nice to have something faster than the 620! Speed parity with private vehicles would be a major selling point. With the points made in the video in mind, is this one route which would benefit from BRT treatment?
Completely agree with you on the ferries, though I don't think a solution to them will help Delta much. Horseshoe bay is pretty clearly better suited towards becoming the more foot-passanger port where Tsawwassen stays as is. This is both because of the constraints Horseshoe bay has to handling more vehicles as well as the connections to Bowen Island and Gibsons. I think a regional rail ( something absent in Reece's video ) solution would fit best and a pretty space-generous one at that both supporting connection from the Burrard pennisula ( say around the Brentwood area ) to the ferry terminal as well as up the valley, south of the border and up the sound towards Squamish. With longer hauls between stops, higher speeds and a bunch of sit down space it would be well suited to not just allowing commuters to commute but also for people to connect to a bunch of BC's various wilderness recreation hotspots.
Imagine taking the train to Horseshoe with your bike and then biking down the Sunshine coast after a ferry ride, or getting into Squamish to do some hiking around there. Unfortunately though I just don't think Tsawwassen is the right ferry terminal for a lot of foot traffic so I'm not sure there's enough people in the Delta area to help out much there. Though if they do want to do something they need to decide fast so they can make the new south fraser crossing with accommodation for transit expansion.
I feel like the canada line should also be expanded to tsawassen mills, tsawassen ferry terminal, and link up with the fraser line in white rock with stops in surrey newton/panorama ridge
Looking at the Phase 5 SkyTrain map, it really made me feel like Vancouver would need to reach NYC/HK level densities to be able to fund and really take advantage of that level of rapid transit service (which I wholeheartedly welcome!)
Downtown Vancouver (and Broadway / False Creek Flats) are / will be incredibly dense! It's good to aspire to something!
We will still need to work on affordable rental units and infrastructure upgrades on many old/damaged buildings in vancouver
@@RMTransit HK density is 6300/km sq, Metro Vancouver is 913/km sq, NYC 11,313.81/km2. Vancouver is building further and further away and density up to pair with those two world class cities are miles away.
Oregonian here! I went to Vancouver for the first time in July, car free, taking Amtrak and my bike. Thank you Reece for your Vancouver videos. I felt so much more confident that I could go car free because you have highlighted services so well. Being car lite living in Portland and having lived car free in Seattle, I'm so happy to see you pushing for lofty transit goals. Portland has really stalled out for now, where as Seattle is steaming ahead with ST3. It's good to see others dreaming big and using their platforms to push for progress. if you ever need Portland transit B roll, let me know!
I am really surprised that you would consider this much branches for Vancouver. I usually don’t like branches as a transit enthusiast/rider myself because they are quite complicated, and lines without branches are better (in my opinion) even if they reach less places, require more transfers, and don’t reach designated destination this fast as branching lines (since no direct connection).
I don't think any line I included has more than 2 branches? Just like the existing system
Branches are good when the suburbs that they go to together add up to the ridership of the trunk. They make the trunk a better investment and also provide good enough service for the level of demand at the branch.
@@szurketaltos2693 See also S-Bahn and RER: regional outside, metro inside.
@@szurketaltos2693 I personally think a Metro/Subway line should be build for capacity. To serve a larger area it is advisable to just build another line, or if there is no big demand just serve a nearby metro station with another transportation mode. If a city is build sprawlingly, so branches are perhaps an cheaper option, this is then fundamentally wrong city designing/land use.
@@RMTransit Totally agree, (my opinion:) still if a line has just one branching point it is quite confusing when you go into a station if you are at the right platform and boarding the right train, especially when the branching line doesn’t have its own name/color.
Also I think it would be better if there was a regional train system (S/RER-style) instead of many different corridor lines branching (even just once) so that a line reaches more places in the suburbs.
Fantastic video and a great vision for Vancouver. As a resident here for half of my childhood and all my adult life, the SkyTrain and all the other services have been critical in making this a very livable city. I am very excited what the future will bring as I think Vancouver is in a great position but needs to keep building to keep up with demand and work towards being more green.
I've been enjoying your videos for over a year now, fantastic work and I look forward to you video about the West Coast Express expansion :)
They're starting to build high rise apartments in the Township of Langley along 200th Street and there are developers trying to get them in Aldergrove on the old mall site that they tore down I think last year or the year before. We don't need the SkyTrain now, but we will soon.
Awesome ! I lived in the Vancouver area from 1990 to 1994 when there was only the Canada line to New Westminster . During that time it was extended across the Fraser to Guildford. That was considered a great thing and it was, but that was then and this is now. Dearly hope what you envision comes true . So love Vancouver !
Very ambitious ideas for SkyTrain. Definitely makes it more of a system to get around the city, whereas I was surprised when I visited a few years ago that SkyTrain was more of a regional rail system and getting around central Vancouver required riding buses.
I'm actually wondering if the Vancouver-Seattle-Portland HSR would change your alignment of the Fraser Valley Express line? I would imagine such a line could share tracks through the Surrey-Vancouver section with a form of local express service that could, for example, branch out as far as Abbotsford.
Theoretically possible!
Vancouver-Seattle-Portland HSR would require a lot more work through Seattle tho (you'd need to build a Brand New Rail corridor from an Expanded King Street Station to at least Edmonds probably all the way to Everett) and Portland Union station would need massive Upgrades
Very well thought out, but I would add two things. First, another line south through Richmond with plans to extend it into Ladner in the future. Second, high speed rail through the fraser valley to Chilliwack with an easy transition into SkyTrain for passengers.
Ambitious ideas for Vancouver's transit. Youd have to include massive overlap in the construction of these lines so that you dont wind up taking more than 50 years to get it all built.
For sure, thats been done in places like Toronto and even Seattle though!
Love the idea of the Stanley line! I live in the West End by English Bay and rely on transit. The 5/6 and C23 busses do not cut it! We need lots more due to the density here. Could imagine how much easier it would be on Fireworks nights to get people in and out of English Bay if there was a station - maybe where the laughing statues are now. It would be like when Vancouver hosted the Olympics, would need crowd control and queueing which was done before so it is possible!
Canada Line cars should never have had fwd/aft seating. The line is a maximum end to end travel time of what..20-25min? The vast majority of people do not *need* to sit, and 2 abreast seating just means ppl having to shimmy around all the time to let someone out from or move over to the window.
More importantly, ..the train goes to the airport, so there's going to be people with suitcases. Longitudinal seating means people could have their baggage in front of them if needed, as opposed to the current setup where people regularly impolitely take up a second seat with their baggage. Great route, but very poor seat layout for such a short route and one that serves an airport.
I have very much enjoyed your spectacular visions for future transit in Vancouver! This is home and always has been! I do love it here and I do leave the car at home and regularly use transit or occasionally my bicycle. Living in Kits does make it easy to hop on transit and have me Downtown very quickly and if I have a work meeting I walk or hop on a bus or the Sky Train to get me where I need to go but the transit system needs huge expansion. Usually it's efficient and quick! I am in Toronto quite frequently and I am shocked at the delays and lack of vision for transit. I have a huge appreciation for the transit we have but I absolutely agree that it needs to be far more bold and specific! My goodness it has been a long time since I have been on the Sea Bus and sometimes I think it's under appreciated but as far as I know use is high? My niece is out in Langley and she'd love to be able to take the Sky Train in all the way to Downtown Vancouver. I hope this is eventually possible! I think your thoughts on what Vancouver should be planning for transit are so well analyzed. It struck me that I rarely think about issues like flooding and the implications for transit. Thank you for being so comprehensive. I need to read a lot more and study these serious issues. I am excited at your terrific outlook on the future of Vancouver transit and the choices the city should make. Thanks for the amazing video!! 🙂
it really is insane that there is literally only one point on the skytrain where you can do a cross-platform interchange, which is at lougheed station getting off the expo line coming in from waterfront to get on a millennium line train heading to lafarge lake
I would recommend a line going from Downtown under the Granville St. bridge to Granville St., then proceeding south and turning east at 41st Ave. Turn south again at Main St. to reach Marine Dr.
Blaine. The politics/bureaucracy will probably never allow for it, but SkyTrain to Blaine would be *so* worth it!
(Continued because #RUclips won't let me post all in one comment)
21:00 I agree but I would also add the fact that they need platform safety barriers (doesn't matter if it's full or partial height doors) since they have no passenger platform safety features like the #SkyTrain mentioned earlier and upcoming Metro Tunnel stations in Melbourne, #Australia. Furthermore, until platform safety barriers and fare gates are installed at every #WCE station, would modify a couple stations with #SkyTrain and #WCE services so direct access between general public area and any fare paid zone is consistent while also provisioning new transit services, station features, and more. Those are Moody Centre and Waterfront.
Waterfront overall needs to be upgraded so transfers between #SkyTrain lines is all within gated fare paid zone while direct access between public area and #WCE is fully not gated or use its own fare paid zone setup. Also, Waterfront needs its #SkyTrain Mezzanine level located on the west side of the station connected to CF Waterfront Centre and located near #CanadaPlace be extended to the east side of the #SkyTrain Expo and Stanley lines platform and split the existing #SkyTrain access elevator into two with the existing one serve the #SkyTrain Mezzanine/#Canada line level and Street/#WCE Mezzanine/overpass level and the new one located around the center of the #SkyTrain Expo and Stanley lines platform so there is less congestion around and inside the elevators while also providing accessible covered direct access to more destinations. Furthermore, with new #Canada line access via expanded #SkyTrain Mezzanine level, the existing #Canada line east entrance be permanently closed so the #Canada line platforms and tracks can be shifted and extended respectively closer to the Expo and Stanley lines while accommodating express tracks and side platforms, additional switches and longer platforms (assuming at maximum length design) included. Fare gates currently located at the existing east #Canada line entrance and #SeaBus, #WCE, and east Expo line entrance would be relocated to the #SeaBus level (NOT the overpass) and expanded #SkyTrain Mezzanine levels. For #WCE, if Mezzanine relocation is necessary for whatever reason (e.g. aging structures, platforms, etc.), it would be built across from the existing Mezzanine. Ideally, the #WCE tracks and platforms be lowered so #WCE Mezzanine and #SeaBus overpass walkway be on the same level as the expanded #SkyTrain Mezzanine while still able to accomodate the tall double decker trains and potential future overhead electrification.
Regarding Moody Centre, the existing regular and emergency overhead walkways would prevent potential future #WCE service expansion to all-day bi-directional as they are positioned too low. Also, the existing regular overhead walkway doesn't provide any direct access to Rocky Point Park. Moody Centre #SkyTrain platforms needs to be shifted west to the Moody St overpass. This is so there is more direct accessible access to the Moody St overpass while having a higher Mezzanine level to accommodate the #WCE and freight trains, and #WCE island platform replacement to support backup second track while also provisioning all-day bi-directional services whenever CP Rail agrees. For the #SkyTrain island platform, this can be achieved with swapping the positions of the center pocket track (switches and access tracks included) and island platform. This include building the new Moody St entrance and new #SkyTrain platform, removing the existing pocket track switches, installing new pocket track segments (rails and guideway segments included) east of the new platforms and existing pocket track with provisions for merging express tracks (a timed overtake express segment western end), and building a new under (preferred for all-weather protection and retail units addition without creating a visual blight from outside) or over pass east of the station for transit exchange access and additional public pedestrian track crossing. For #WCE, to accommodate #SkyTrain express tracks and side platforms, backup track usage, and potential future all-day bi-directional services, new #WCE platform would be an island and the #WCE platform access would be at the east pedestrian crossing and east of the #SkyTrain platforms, CP tracks would be shifted north, or both. One additional #WCE platform access would be located east from an overpass based on the Moody Centre TOD plans for a Murray St overpass. Alternatively, if express #SkyTrain service between #Coquitlam Central and Moody Centre is more viable than having the Moody Centre #WCE stop, then express #SkyTrain should replace this #WCE segment.
No other station with #WCE services as of this comment have such setups like Moody Centre and Waterfront currently. In addition, would create new #WCE routes including a South #Vancouver-#Coquitlam route with Arbutus tram-train transfers, a #Coquitlam-Pacific Central route with #SkyTrain transfers in #Burnaby and #Vancouver, and a #Coquitlam-North Shore route with new Second Narrows multimodal bridge and Thorton tunnel rerouting to the new bridge, expansion, and double tracking.
Overall, good ideas though would revise them to be less #Vancouver-centric and more grid-like.
Would you make a transit map showing all the stations for this new network?
7:15 IMO, the only barrier to long trains on the Skytrain network is the switches. Let's say a 150m skytrain stops at a 120m stop, there train needs to fit between the switches on either (sometimes both) ends of the station. Once the Mark 1's are nowhere in the system, this is completely doable by reconfiguring all the trains as end-to-end A-C-C-C-B types rather than A-B,A-B types (Which is how the Mark II's were all configured.) That said, that could also take advantage of the larger baggage/bike area in the B car by encouraging bikes to load and unload at stations that have a "bike platform" which could be a small extension to the platform with a spanish solution that leads to a bike/wheelchair ramp.
9:07 you're overlooking the part where the Canada Line goes under the river delta, and is below sea level. So "making a deeper platform tunnel" is probably a bad idea, due to liquefaction risk in an earthquake. Pretty much the Canada Line is a series of compromises. Making the platforms longer probably not that hard, but likely uneconomical. Likewise development in Richmond is supposed to be "restricted" to just the built up area for the same liquification risk. The the tall structures are (supposedly) require piles driven into the bedrock. To keep pressure off the ALR in Tsawwassen-Delta-Surrey-Langley, is also why density development is supposed to be focused around the city centers and transit network.
16:08: The only problem I see with some of these is that we don't have the data to back up which routes should be built as Skytrain aside from how they are serviced already by B-line Rapidbus's. Building more just to get to the downtown peninsula is just kicking the problems around IMO. What I'd do is focus on Metrotown (which is the highest elevation point on the Skytrain network) and build lines that either start, end or cross through there. Probably easier to suggest that now since the Current Mayor of Burnaby isn't standing in the way like the previous Mayor obstructed transit from being built.
I'm not sure where you're referring to the CL going "under the river delta" are you referring to the False Creek Inlet? I didn't suggest building a new lower platform level, I used this as an example of a major underground expansion conducted within Canada
In this video you talk about 'Gondolas'. But in this video there was no risk of people thinking that you were talking about BOATS. Firstly you said 'mountain gondolas' . Secondly you showed a clip of an aerial cableway. Thank you! (By the way, have you any experience of 3-S aerial cableways? There are a FEW in the alps. The three in the Swiss Alps I have been on all have cabins which take 25-30 passengers.
He says GON-do-la which means aerial cableway instead of gon-DO-la which means boat.
@@vincentng2392 Sorry Vincent. When Europeans (like me) talk about gondolas, we mean the boats which operate in Venice. More importantly, when talking about these Venetian boats, we always put the emphasis on the first syllable. If you do not believe me, listen to a recording of the operetta 'The Gondoliers'. As I said in a comment on another recent video from Reece, there was a proposal to build a 'gondola' up a mountain in the English Lake District. Even some readers of an English transport journal Local Transport Today thought boats were involved!
@@Fan652w Regional differences then?
@@vincentng2392 If a North American opera/theatre company put on a production of The Gondoliers they would, like all other opera companies around the world, put the emphasis on the first syllable. (If they tried to put the emphasis on the second syllable, it would not fit in the music!)
3S gondola lifts (not boats) Take up more space. Yes, the cabins are bigger but more spread out to allow for loading. More smaller cabins can handle more passengers. Toulouse is a good example for 3S urban gondola.
Loved the video!! Could you do something like this for Calgary?
The challenge with Calgary will be discussing transit without talking about building/neighbourhood density. I think the C-train system is quite well designed. However, because the density is so low around the stations, they are largely useless.
Thank you for pointing out we really need more cross-platform transfers and a much denser network.
Also want to point out Delta and the ferry terminals were left out of this fantasy network.
Would love to see a skytrain line going from Surrey Central through Delta, Ladner and terminating at Tsawwassen Ferry Terminal.
Absolutely love the way you say Olympic Village PROPER at 13:26. Still boggles my mind why the current Olympic Village station isn't actually in Olympic Village and is instead in this random, under Cambie bridge location that no one ever uses.
I've used it a bunch of times
To be fair, the big empty lot next to the Cambie bridge is supposed to be filled in with more buildings, thus completing Olympic Village all the way up to the bridge and making the name make a bit more sense.... any day now....
that station was GREAT during the Olympics, when they had the trams running to Granville Island! they should never have covered the old railway line when they built the olympic village, that would be a solid tram corridor. it used to go all the way to science world
You really got out the crayons for the Stanley Line! I love it.
Great video and ideas! Moving to Victoria from Vancouver has highlighted to me the deficiencies of transit connections to the Tsawwassen and Horseshoe Bay ferry terminals. The connections exist and aren't terrible, but improvements could shift many people from taking cars on the ferries to walking or biking on. The Hullo passenger ferry between downtown Nanaimo to downtown Vancouver starts service in mid-August, 2023 and could point the way. Unfortunately, BC Ferries is stuck car-centric thinking and passenger-only ferries have always been private start-ups that can't survive a bad year and so they come and go. Obviously the transit connections have to be good on both sides and that's a whole other problem. It might be interesting to hear you dive into this (I can provide more details, info, etc.).
All looking good. However, you mainly focus on where you think the population will be in the future and that transport is a priority. For instance, I can't see the arbutus greenway ever being used for rapid transit - it's success as a walking/cycle path has been too great and you know how Vancouver loves cycling. Also the UBC extensions - you're likely to see one in the next ten years or so, but two? With the costs involved, and who would pay, not ever likely.
What's the average and highest frequencies on the sky train?
Because lengthening trains (and more importantly station's platforms) may not be necessary or not to the same extent if there's room for higher frequency.
Like they did in Paris by reducing headway to under 90 seconds on peak hours on automated lines. Or down to 60 seconds on some VAL metro systems.
But maybe such high frequencies need rubber tire train's precision to be reached and maintained.
Anyway, increasing frequency could be a cheaper way to increase capacity or be part of a two-way approach mix to higher capacity with more modest station lengthening and reduced headway.
As whatever the train / platform length, a platform that feels crowded and where riders need to slalom between other passengers to distribute over its entire length will still be a bit of a deterrent for riders. Especially if the lengthened platforms don't get additional access / exit points.
While a platform that doesn't even have time to fill up between trains gives a great sensation of efficiency to potential riders.
Even if both had exactly the same capacity, a line with extreme frequency feels a lot more efficient and appealing than one with longer trains and less / usual frequency.
Having more trains and much higher frequency on an automated line doesn't cost much compared to longer trains and platforms.
Sometimes a 30 second difference is enough to drastically change capacity and the perception of riders.
They'll be less likely to run for the door or to hesitate about taking the next train if the one in front of them is crowded.
I know I certainly don't bother speeding up for the door nor hesitate to wait for the next one in Paris line M14 when I know the next departure is only 80 seconds later, not even the time to buy a drink from a machine on the platform...
A "rapid-fire" frequency line is virtually almost like a travelator, schedules become irrelevant.
So, I'm a strong supporter of the highest frequency noria of trains, especially if it can avoid having to spend too much on important lengthening of stations.
I believe the Expo line is basically at the max frequency during rush hour that is possible.
@@Droxal OK, but what is that frequency?
Fully automated driverless / unattended systems can easily run train departures every 60 or 80 seconds on rubber tyres.
A slightly longer separation on steel wheeled trains.
So, the frequency on Skytrain may potentially be increased even higher, rather than the costly station lengthening.
A systems / signaling upgrade may be needed for that but that's still much cheaper than extending platforms.
U forgot the commuter rail connecting Vancouver Waterfront to towns to the east.
Takes me 2 hours to travel from the north shore to Burnaby. That's a 15 min drive btw
VCC Clark line "kinda in the middle of nowhere"? Walking to Emily Carr, Vancouver Community College. That's alot of students, professors and support staff travelling to nowhere every day. Maybe that's why we needed a station in the middle of nowhere to get people nowhere quickly.
Ya, no. It's in the middle of nowhere.
Do you think Vancouver needs to specialize the sky train ? Right now it’s half commuter rail half metro.
I think the sky train of the future becomes a metro while a commuter rail or at least express service would connect city centres across the region.
Like BART? Skytrain seems to be more metro like than commuter due to its frequencies than service that most rapid transit systems do: bringing people to downtown.
There’s not much good corridors for regional rail yet without massive redesign and enhance of existing or abandoned freight railways and the grade crossing that come along with it that need to separated. Nor does it have the capacity in its trains to carry that much people unless having larger be longer trains than it has now.
I guess why it’s easier to implement the Skytrain when it did start using some freight railways as it right of ways, though much has changed.
Though I’m guessing they could implement express services onto the skytrain network due to did they have a third tracks then to do so in certain stations since the expo decades ago.
The biggest issue here is the limited space in Vancouver as it's an already built-up region. For comparison: The reason Chicago and NYC as well as the underground tracks of London were quite a big deal as the only railways which only were build there (to the point of legally restricted like in London) were street railways / tramways. Skytrain is thus a regional metro because it is the only viable way to build a railway network without resorting to demolition or streetcars.
Seeing all these phases come to fruition would be amazing
Would love to see a video like this on Edmonton's LRT and regional system! I've made a "fantasy" plan, but I would love to hear what you think, RM!
Same especially with the new idea going around if a GO Transit-like commuter/regional rail to the airport/Leduc
Phase I should begin in Surrey. A parallel line down Scott Road and King George Boulevard connected by 72nd Avenue would address the affordable conditions in Surrey and North Delta. Building transit infrastructure in places like the West End or the North Shore would be so much more expensive than focusing on the South Shore. Surrey has the potential to be another Metropolitan Centre to the region.
As well as cross-platforming, existing skytrain stations need better integration with street scene. One in Port Moody is next to two massive car dealership lots and nothing else. Another is physically close to bars, parks and entertainment but the only entrance is on the other side and to reach them it's a 10 minute walk, not the 30 second walk it should be. Metrotown has one broken pedestrian skybridge - joke.
Extending platforms is good but for smaller stations, as you said, doors can open selectively, provided the new models allow movement between carriages (which they do)
Gondola will be epic. Build it!
Your suggestions for POCO extension, plus Metrotown to North Shore via BCIT - beautiful but needs expansion to Horsehoe Bay.
Bus stations and interchanges need to be covered and attractive structures. Phibbs Exchange looks like it belongs in 1990s Bosnia.
*Get real: Medellin in Colombia has a better public transit system than Vancouver. Vancouver’s is already overcrowded, trains on Sunday start too late and the earliest trains to Surrey are sardine packed. Vancouver’s political class is terribly shorted sighted. Stations are constantly being rebuilt: first the BC United Scrooge Party’s witch and gremlin’s toll gates that don’t work, secondly for the addition of toilets that should been included from the beginning, and then further building for more train cars which will be inadequate by the time they’re built, etc. The problem is the political appointees who run the system rely on cars and never regularly use the system. And I’ve just started about the stupidity that is the root cause of the problem.*
Langley doesn't deserve a skytrain?! Buddy you are wrong on that front. Sorry. Surrey and Langely have gotten MASSIVE in the last 10 years. We definitely deserve that lane now. Because it will be used.
I live in the Fraser Valley and use the West Coast Express daily. There’s an unbelievable amount of development happening in Langley, Abbotsford, and Chilliwack, so many people are moving out and they’re all ending up on Hwy 1 because the WCE just isn’t adequate for most people’s needs. Commuter rail along the corridor south of the Fraser is going to be desperately needed very soon, but I don’t see the province really taking it seriously at all.
This is so deeply satisfying. Wow! I'm so grateful to live near Millenium and Expo lines, and with this dream plan I would really be able to get around the lower mainland SO effectively. Right now I find that e-biking is the most efficient way to get most places in metro van, and I'd love to see the mobi bike system expanded and purchased by Translink so that it could be part of the transit system rather than a for-profit thing run by Rogers
7:10 I alos quite like the announcement on the S-stock on the circle line at some stations where the last cars doors do not open, and the text is "All doors in this car will not open here, plaese use other doors". But as the train is fully walkthrough that does not matter.
Hi Reece:
Can you
Become Mayor of Vancouver or head of trans link or BC minister of transport? That would be awesome.
This was so interesting having just visited Vancouver. I’d say all lines need more capacity. I experienced crowds on all three lines.
One question: where do you see trolleybuses fitting in the picture of Vancouver’s nec is adult low carbon future where we need more buses to be electric. Should trolleybuses that can automatically detach and then reconnect with wires be used on rapid bus routes? Do you think more routes should receive trolleys?
As a Greater Vancouver resident, this video got me very excited. Your plans make a lot of sense and would be a dream to see, especially after being a Skytrain user for the first 4 years of me living here. I almost thought you forgot to mention West Coast Express, haha. I used to live in Langley and am looking forward to the Skytrain finally coming out there. With the way the housing crisis is going, I would love for there to be bullet trains out to the Okanagan (e.g. Kelowna, 100 Mile, etc.). There's a ton of potential further out and it would be a great way to connect Metro Vancouver to the often forgotten North and North East part of BC that many people have/will move to for more affordable housing.
The issue with the Inlet Line having conventional motors is the steep grades in the North Shore. Any new line there would almost certainly be LIM based making it better for the Inlet Line to also use LIM.
Please do Victoria and Vancouver Island, with the E&N railroad
Found this very interesting. I attended school in Langley 50 years ago and have visited the area many times after that including 3 weeks ago. (I live in Iowa). Every time i visit i am amazed the changes and all the changing skylines. Vancouver is the greatest and most beautiful metro area in North America.
Here me out, what about railless trams as the core system and from the last stops - monorail into suburbs? It would be the first city in the world to implement such visionary solution!
Rail less Trams? Like trolley buses? And why use monorail if Skytrain is already the better use of elevated railway in the region and he kinda already made videos on the pros and cons of monorails and trackless Trolleys
@@TheRandCrews it was a joke. It's a Chinese invention - both byd monorail and "railess trams" - which we call trolleys, both are pretty useless technology.
My biggest gripe with the Skytrain is how ungodly loud it is compared to many trains in Japan(despite being almost half the speed in most cases).
I can hear the Skytrains come and go from my place on the other side of a decent sized mall (Brentwood). But when I was in Japan, a lot of trains make little noise to the point where you sometimes can't even hear them coming at the platform until they're less than 50m away (even in the subway). I hope that the new trains and the modifications will be enough to significantly reduce noise.10
I took the Skytrain on my way back from a visit to Tokyo actually (I live in Seattle, so I was taking it to pacific central) and this was also the very first thing I noticed. They are SO LOUD even going at half the speed.
I once looked at a place near Joyce-Collingwood to rent, and I decided against it because even with the windows closed, a block away from the tracks, I could still hear the SkyTrain enough that it would have been forever messing with my video recording/streaming if I lived there.
No metro area can be truly great if it is fickle in its transportation infrastructure. It requires good vision and the willingness to stay the course - actual implementation, ongoing maintenance, and upgrades.
How would UBC station be built? Would it be two island platforms?
I figured it would be something like this:
- Platform 1A: North Shore Line to Park Royal
- Platform 1B: Millennium Line arrival only
- Platform 2A: Millennium Line to Lafarge Lake - Douglas
- Platform 2B: North Shore Line arrival only
9:56 I thought I heard somewhere that expanding the length of the Canada line trains beyond 2.5 or 3 cars is essentially impossible since the curves on some of the underground portions don’t allow for it
I don't believe so, I follow the space closely. That's why i mentioned it wouldn't be cheap but could still be done.
Check out Yoyogi-Hachiman station in Tokyo. That comma of a station routinely handles 10 car trains.
As mentioned in the video, I think the issue is more the elevation change and less so the curves. That said it could be done.
It's fascinating to think that Vancouver is actually located in N America while being miles ahead of the rest of the continent (though Montreal is catching up with the REM & Toronto with the Ontario line & Go Expansion - but definitly not crosstown). Building new transit continuously is the key, that's how Madrid, Istanbul, Paris, Shanghai and other cities in Eurasia build hundreds of km of undeground metro so affordibly, they keep improving their expertise while cities like London, New York or Montreal (which were transit havens in the past but have hardly no serious expansion plan today) lost it for being inactive too long, eg REM B instantly became as expensive as the 2nd avenue subway after being taken over by public ARTM. On the other hand, Paris and Istanbul metro systems are half the size of NYC and London's, but both will overtake them inroute lengh in just 10 years!
But there's still hope, just as Montreal did with the CDPQ for the REM or Serbia is doing with RATP for the Belgrade metro. Hiring world-class companies to bring their expertise is the right thing to do; that's in fact how China started, they learned and no longer need these companies anymore, building Guanghzou 150km underground high speed line 18 for less than what Toronto spend on crosstown!
A multiple-phased plan like the one you are proposing for Vancouver is great. Using and improving its elevated driverless light metro and TBM tunneling expertise with the Broadway extension during phases 1 & 2 would definitely help with planning and cutting costs for the higher scale Fraser line. I wouldn't be surprised if the companies that make the SkyTrain in Vancouver were hired by many transit authorities in the US or Canada in the future
I would also add modern european tram lines as neighborhood connectors to the skytrain, Vancouver with its growing density is definitly suited for trams!
Good job Vancouver, but please don't let the transit golden era train pass without getting onboard! be an example for the rest of N America
CDPQ infra wasn't such a great idea. Their proposition for the REM de l'Est was bad. There's a reason why they're not on that project anymore. The ARTM isn't doing much better though. The real price tag for their project was actually 17 billions, but they decided to add some esoteric calculations into the mix to raise it up all the way to 36 billions. Why would they do that, I have no idea, except to sabotage the project.
Would be great to have someone like Reece at the ARTM.
@@alexseguin5245CDPQ wasn’t as good as European or Asian companies, but we must admit that they managed to build an entire 67km line for much less than what we usually spend
@@transitspace4366 Yeah. Because they got stuff for free. Kind of easy to come up with a low bill when you're given things worth billions of dollars.
@@alexseguin5245 REM de L'Est isn't bad what are you talking about? It was bogged down by NIMBYs, and a spiteful ARTM that hated their guts.
@@Absolute_Zero7exactly and not like the alternative was any better more like worse
I think Vancouver also deserves a regional rail system- there are a surprising number of railway tracks in Vancouver that could get freight operation on them. Expanding not just down the WCE corridor but also down other routes. BC has a few small cities in the Fraser valley which could get regional rail service.
The best bang for the buck to expand our existing hub-and-spoke network is bike rooms. The bike-shed of, say, a SkyTrain line is 5x the size of its walk-shed, and with an e-bike your trip will likely be faster than the bus, and not dependent on service frequency. A 5-7 minute ride to the station is probably the trade-off point for commuters. Considering our climate, bike rooms that have a wash-up and drying station, and are (lightly) heated so commuters don't return to a wet rusty bike would be an amenity users would likely pay a small monthly fee to access.
Living at UBC, I am constantly appalled at the ride quality of even some of TransLink's newest buses used on the 84 and R4 lines. I would much prefer if the existing trolleybus network were (re)transitioned into an extensive tram network with full right-of-ways, so that passengers who aren't in as much of a hurry can enjoy a smooth ride at the street level and help to further wean Vancouver off of its still very significant obsession with cars and motorcycles. Why does TransLink hate trams so much?
Buses can change lanes to avoid obstacles, the trolleywires allow some flexibility
The biggest thing I think people overlook about the Sea to Sky is that up until 2003 we had daily bidirectional rail service from North Vancouver to Prince George via Squamish and Lillooet. Bring back BC Rail!
rmtransit i not sure of your age but i was 8 back in 86 when the skytrain opened and knew it was a game changer for vancouver it put us on the map but now we need more transit and another way to cross the north shore there is talk of skytrain from the north shore to metrotown station via brentwood
The short length of the Vancouver skytrains have always absolutely perplexed me and, to me, is the perfect example of the city’s historical lack of foresight in pretty much everything they do.
@@mattl4802 Vancouver doesn’t know how to future proof, hence why we are in the situation we’re in.
I think the fraser line should be used as an express route and not just a faster skytrain. Expanding the width of the existing 'grandview cut' rail corridor with better earthworks to fit another double track would allow full-size commuter trains to travel to Pacific Central relatively easily. It could bet connected to production way with an extension of the gondola, a station at commercial Broadway and then stop right beside main street. Once you have this express rail corridor to the centre of the city there are a ton of different ways to funnel trains into it. As you say in many of your videos, you should use the right technology for the right situation. Heavy rail makes the most sense for a service that is taking pressure off the local rapid transit service.
Your fantasy tranist maps are my favourite type of video aside from your explainer videos! All your content is amazing though!
Vancouver, the city, has bad council. The only thing they can think of is taxes. As everyone knows, if you're not making progress, you're holding back. Already there, the West Express would be a game-changer if just it runs more frequently
Lets go loving these kind of videos! (& reworks)
Thanks! I enjoy making them!
I would like to hear more of your thoughts on Westcoast Express and reginal rail in greater Vancouver. It seems like there are existing rail corridors that could connect Surrey to Abbotsford and maybe Chilliwack, and North Van to Squamish and maybe Whistler. Do you think those are viable options? Where would you put these projects in your priority list?
I agree with you: the BC Hydro Interurban right of way into the Fraser Valley still exists and BC Rail used to run passenger service to Squamish and beyond until the beginning of this century.
Short version: I understand from this episode that Reese thinks the old Interurban line is non-viable and prioritizes Sea-to-Sky rail service as secondary to an improved West Coast Express.
Long version (could be mansplaining?):
Reese is emphatic that transit in Metro Vancouver will only grow with the unique strong reliable backbone that is SkyTrain. He claims Translink has a pattern of receiving lotsa money for new projects (capital budget) but comparatively little for running them year over year (operating budget). He wants TransLink to stop doing and build more Skytrain lines because it's cheaper and faster to put in service than almost any other public transit on Turtle Island.
INTERURBAN?
The Interurban right of way has been jampacked with freight for sixty years. Reese proposes the Fraser Line, an elevated 140km/h express line using a different corridor: Hwy 1. Skytrain is too slow to reach these speeds and its trainsets are too small to move ever more passengers. TransLink needs a bold new project ASAP!
BUT... isn't TransLink bad at keeping new projects funded? In this case, Reese seems to think a new commuter rail project is worth the risk. Population projections for south of the Fraser are big enough to support something with higher speed and capacity than Skytrain. TransLink's proven viaduct and track engineering can support any modern suburban or regional trainsets. Once the Fraser Line is built where people in Surrey and beyond need to go for their everyday trips, TransLink will be hard pressed to cheap out on maintenance.
Reese's Fraser Line avoids endless talks with massive corporate giants CN and CP about reclaiming or sharing the Interurban. Also, the right of way goes through forest and farmland nowhere near commuter hubs. The Fraser Line would remind everyone in congested traffic that a train can move them where they're going faster and cheaper and cleaner. Also, elevated tracks allow connections to the already elevated Surrey stations. Reece's new interurban seems relevant to people who want to stop driving.
SEA-TO-SKY?
Reece mentions that Sea-to-Sky is already a commuter route and that a West Coast Express style train needs to be considered. He also mentions that he needs a whole episode to deal just with WCE!
I think Reese would also need a separate episode for the Sea-to-Sky. I'd want him to mention that BC Rail used to run weekend and holiday Sea-to-Sky service for skiers as well as year-round regional trains a few times a week right up to the end of the 1990s. The 2010 Olympic highway improvements did next to nothing for regional bus service. At least one group puts out a news release every year for a study or proposal for a pilot rail service or partial or full resumption of local or regional or express trains to Squamish and Whistler. SIGH.
Reese restricts himself to WCE. He doesn't mention that this was a brand new and bizarre project in the 1990s. BC Transit got CP to give passenger service access to their North-of-Fraser subdivision. I would think BC Transit knew that Surrey and Langley were growing faster than Maple Ridge or Mission but something is better than nothing?
Anyways, then BC Transit bought some 1980s double-decker rolling stock from Toronto's GO Transit and started weekday rush hour commuter service in 1995 to some fanfare. Reese reveals that TransLink is putting version 3.0 of SkyTrain cars into service this fall... yet there are no plans to replace 40-yr-old WCE trainsets! Our host seems irked by this situation.
Reese recommends that WCE needs to run both directions, every day, with hourly service at minimum, which will at least 😀require new trainsets. He doesn't mention that this increase in service isn't really being bold so much as fair. WCE was a new project back in the day. New projects are supposed to be bad for TransLink. Yet those double-deckers are still there, running successfully for a quarter of a century. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?
Well, yes, Reese might say in some future episode, that new non-SkyTrain project might still be successful. In that twenty-five years, while North-of-Fraser hasn't grown as fast as South-of-Fraser, population has grown while WCE service remains almost exactly the same. TransLink has successfully offered a minority of residents a lift to work and back during weekday rushhours and everyone else gets crappy suburban bus service. That doesn't seem like a plan to help more people live without a car.
Reese cuts to the chase: TransLink must show the North Fraser that their trains can work as a regular regional transit option for everyone, not just for weekday travel peak directions. I infer that he wants WCE to get its act together so Sea-to-Sky can feel confident about reliable rail service that will show commuters, tourists and residents that cars aren't a requirement for practical travel.
Reese seems to be looking at where most of us are going to live in Metro Van and wants to address those regions first and fastest. I look at Surrey and see multilane traffic jams over 100km in both directions that aren't solved by one-more-lane-ism. Why not put long, fast trains right over the freeway so people see them beat the traffic every time?
I look at Sea-to-Sky and see 2- or 3-lane traffic jams on weekends and holidays over 100km in peak directions. There's a twisty train line next to/below/near the improved highway. That line used to run passenger services when the road wasn't so good. How often will it beat traffic today? How many trains a day will carry everyone? How many cars per train? Maybe we oughta lookit somewhere else first.
Thanks for reading this far. Maybe the trains will come when our leaders realize no more room can be spared for one more lane. Maybe we can't wait that long.
I didn't realize only opening some doors of a train wasn't super common. We do that here in little old NZ and the recorded voice just says "Please disembark from the three cars at the north end of the train only" super easy
is a tram-train system between Langley and Chilliwack possible?
Not only is it possible, we even had it over 100 years ago. The BC Electric Railway.
As a Vancouverite, I have some thoughts.
I'm not sure the skytrain running along Hastings St makes a lot of sense outside of the specific context of connecting the north shore to the rest of the skytrain network which is best done along the alignment heading towards Metrotown. Especially as a City of Vancouver only project I'd be real reluctant to use your chance there instead of one of the other projects.
Speaking of I also think terminating the North Shore line at Metrotown is also a mistake, it's the right area but a nightmare station since it would involve tunneling under some of the densest parts of Burnaby without even a road to align with. I really really think that Patterson would be a better terminus station ( and perhaps through-running station if the extension to 41st st happens ) since there's just more room around that to build, as well as a road heading strait north from there so you're not digging under everyone's buildings and it takes some pressure off of what's already a busy station, Metrotown doesn't need more traffic running through it. Additionally shifting things a bit west lets you come north down Patterson towards the Hospital and EA Vancouver campus before swerving out east to hit BCIT and from then on continue along the Translink-proposed route.
I'm also a bit dubious about the Fraser line, while getting another crossing is certainly a good thing I'm really not convinced of getting all the way down to White Rock ( population 22k ) or the extension to northern Langley/Walnut Grove ( population 23k ). This isn't to say that those sorts of populations should never get better service but that'd be a hard sell while Maple Ridge ( population 95k ) remains completely unserved, it also has the merit of being laid out in a far more linear fashion along hwy 7 compared to the vaguely circular sprawl around Langley + the Walnut Grove patch.
I'm also a bit doubtful about dragging the terminus all the way downtown, Vancouver isn't Toronto where downtown can at least claim to be a reasonable approximation of the geographic center of the metro area, good connectivity downtown is great but I don't think every service needs to terminate there and I think there'd be a lot of benefit to making a major interchange station somewhere between Rupert and Brentwood on the Millenium lines, wherever the Inlet Line intersects with it.
All told I think keeping some of the Surrey components of the Fraser line but dragging the Langley end over the river into Maple Ridge intersecting with another line running through there from the Poco and terminating the western point of the Fraser line at an appropriate point on a north-south running line.
The other component that's missing is regional rail, now obviously there'd need to be some real convincing of outlying municipalities to play ball if there was going to be any serious investment but I think we need to start planning on what it might look like, where a good interchange might be ( just a bit west of Brentwood in my opinion since there's an existing rail tunnel already) to support longer ranged higher speed trips up the valley, to the ferries, south of the border and up the sound. Partially because as the Burrard pennisula densifies it's going to rapidly become harder and more expensive to find space for a large station.
We need a dedicated east-west skytrain line to cut travel between the expo and Canada line.
Currently there is no way to get from Surrey/Langley to Richmond/YVR in a reasonable amount of time, especially if traveling with luggage to/from the airport.
There are two route that I can think of for this. The first one is a new line along marine drive connecting 22nd ave station and Marine drive station. I’ve heard this idea thrown around recently.
The second is a route from Scott road that goes down the SFPR, crosses the Fraser at the Massey tunnel (integrated tracks built with the tunnel replacement) then connects back to Brighouse station in Richmond.
As a fraser valley resident I wholeheartedly agree with having improvements to the west coast express and some of the other intercity connections. I can tell you, the BCTransit route 66 from Chilliwack to loughheed isn't enough in its current state, and with the limited times the WCE runs, its all we have to get into Vancouver. and honestly with the highway improvements that should be finishing up in the next couple years, while they cant improve connections all the way to Chilliwack, they can at least improve express busses into abbotsford. be it continuing the 555 and 66 parallel all the way to highstreet or even the PnR near UFV, adding loughheed/carvolth to baby expresses on the 66 (instead of the busses that run like once an hour going from Chilliwack to loughheed), or adding new lines, with the HOV lane extension and other infrastructure, they seem to have made room for it to be possible.
I'd also recommend a more direct train from Surrey to YVR, instead of having to go through downtown.
South Marine Drive definitely needs a light rail connecting all the new developments, and there's plenty of room on the Kent Avenue corridor. The only weird part is Market Crossing at Byrne and Marine Way as that was designed as a car-centric box store plaza and also the risk of inundation when the river rises over the flood plain; but it would service the industrial business parks very well.
My only real disagreement with Reece's laundry list here is that it doesn't include enough regional trains. West Coast Express should be expanded on a new corridor to Surrey and down to the US border to serve as a future line for HSR to Seattle/Portland (although for now could be shared with Amtrak).This would be similar to Caltrain in SF sharing tracks with CAHSR in the future. Additionally, there should be a train from Lonsdale Quay to Whistler through Squamish that runs at least hourly.
The issue with that is we just do not have good rail corridors for doing what you are suggesting. This is why more SkyTrain is likely the solution, you are going to need more tunnels and viaducts and smaller more frequent trains make that more practical
@@RMTransit for the corridor to Squamish/Whistler, we already have the tracks (they're owned by the BC government but leased to CN as part of the BC Rail scandal). For new tracks to the border, the easy thing to do would be to include a rail tunnel as part of the George Massey tunnel replacement project. It's not as direct as going to Whalley, but would be cheaper, and could service the ferries in Tsawassen for a rail/ferry link to Schwartz Bay.
The issue here is the first line you refer to is pretty windy and rough. The second line is really only very useful for intercity.
@@RMTransit For the first line, yeah, you start with slower service and try to improve it over time. It's not like BC Rail didn't have passenger service on this line before (which they did, for a long time). It's also better than building more lanes for the Sea-to-Sky yet again. For the second line, it's more direct than the current Amtrak alignment which takes an hour just to get to the border, and it could service Richmond, Delta (with an extension to the ferries), and also South Surrey before crossing the border.
Same assessment/proposal but for Seattle!!
WCE commentary from someone who lives North of the Fraser:
- WCE doesn't stop in Burnaby. After Port Moody, it doesn't stop until Waterfront. This is a huge deadzone that I'd like to see addressed in any future expansion. Especially as someone who has always been anchored to Burnaby instead of Vancouver, even after I moved to the suburbs.
- The number of trains were rolled back to even fewer rides with the pandemic, as ridership fell and freight demands went up. Translink has struggled to get those previous timeslots back; I think they've only restored one of the several that were removed.
- WCE's primary constraint is that they lease the tracks from a freight line, rather than owning them. I know you weren't trying to make a big section about the WCE, and did mention that they should build their own tracks. But I think an explicit mention of the problem has the chance to significantly improve visibility of it to your audience while only adding 0.5-1 sentence. It took me years living out here to find out that this was the problem.
Suprised you didn't mention anything specific for Richmond? Would extending the canada line there be a viable project or would improved bus service, (What you talked about in the video) be sufficient.
There were a few things
Richmond could dissolve in an earthquake so I doubt there's much incentive to expand infrastructure there
RM should run Canada. Infrastructure, without the politics.
This hehe
Sorry to break it to you but investment into this kind of infrastructure IS politics. It’s inherently political, the alternative being the kind of car-culture/conservative convergence we’re also seeing these days
All infrastructure is politics and all politics is infrastructure.
@@leopoldleoleo Not necessarily, since you can build infrastructure without demonizing people
I wonder if he’d object to being a consultant on new project proposals.
What’s your opinion on a Streetcar or LRT on the Arbutus Corridor which was the other corridor choice for the Canada Line than Cambie?
If Vancouver gets more regional rail, it would make more sense to send them through Pacific Central anyway despite the significance of Waterfront as a major hub. The current commuter line should probably run hourly off peak all day and maybe 1-2hrs on weekends with a stop at the PNE to encourage different trip types at different times of day
Especially on how there’s more platforms on Pacific Central and able to be a hub with a connection on the Skytrain nearby. Practically just storage space for Via Rail Canadian and West Coast express trains
Agreed, although I wish they would do some pedestrian improvements to the route between pacific and the science center station. I live in seattle, and took a trip recently that involved going through YVR, which involved me taking the cascades to pacific and then taking skyrail to the airport. Having to walk through the parking lot and cross two roads of busy traffic without shelter from the rain and little light was not the most pleasant experience, and put a bit of a damper on what was otherwise a very convenient and pleasant trip.
Cool video. But no rapid transit to Richmond?
theres a bit! generally I think we should focus development on higher ground
@RMTransit aren't there high density developments in Richmond?
BTW, I'm moving to Toronto and would love go meet. I'm a transit geek as well and would enjoy guidance of a local :)
One major thing that has to be added to this plan. Taking away car lanes on main commerical corridors that define the city's culture: commercial, main, cambie, Broadway, 4th, east Pender are all practically 6 lane freeways at the moment!
The two things that really jump out at me are:
-have you given any thought to posting maps separately, even as a patreon and/or substack only thing?
-are you sure the Hastings line should be an Expo extension rather than tied into the Stanley Line (I was initially kinda taken aback by not treating is as a branch of the inlet line, but actually think I'm on side with more consideration of how well interlining works globally)? I suppose it's would be a pretty quick reconfiguration with the infrastructure built out as described... I do also wonder if a Stanley Park branch actually makes more sense for the Stanley line than an initial terminal along the lines of Denman/Davie or Chico/Beach with the intent of the extension through routing all trains south.
Something of an aside, but no discussion of closing the Lions Gate to cars? I've actually become kinda sympathetic to it presuming it would come with a full Waterfront - Park Royal - Horshoee Bay BRT
I'll consider adding them to Patreon!
I saw somewhere on Wikipedia the Canada line can extend its platforms and trains to 50 meters. Do you know what the center car would look like?
Probably a small box carriage in the middle of the gangways, imagine like the new Metrolink Arrow train except the middle carriage is not an engine and in a light metro proportions instead
It would just be a shorter version of the end cars, they have not made any yet - I'd guess they'd order entirely new longer trains rather than adding brand new middle cars to trains which are now up to ~15 years old
Weekend service for the west coast express to mission. Rapid bus could be a substitute during the weekends. Need to get Rapid transit to Abbotsford. Some kind of rapid transit from delta area to Langley Abbotsford area. The Fraser valley north and south is the elephant in the room. You need a car in those areas. You can build affordable higher density housing in the Fraser valley.
Many ambitious plans but personally not a fan of the shuttle from Lougheed to Columbia idea. That portion of the system already gets less service than the Surrey branch, in general, I know because of less ridership. For example at night the service get drastically reduced in favour of the Surrey branch.
It need not! Shuttle service could and should be shorter more frequent trains!