FYI the Mississauga transitway was designed to be converted into LRT in the future if possible, no modifications to bridge heights, etc would need to happen. They calculated everything to make sure an LRT would fit
The major question mark in my mind is whether it is worthwhile to maintain a mixed traffic functionality or go for a full rail conversion. I can honestly make good enough arguments either way in my head that what I'll actually say definitely is that I think the decision needs to be made in combination with finalizing mode and design specifics for 427 and 407 rapid transit.
@@Bureaucromancer I think by the time the Transitway is converted into LRT, driverless car technology will be starting to become well established. So, they could create a system where when the buses to into the LRT area they could use the same PTC/driverless tech. And then you would get the advantages of both: a continued expressway for buses and an LRT system.
PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE make this a running series and do it for other cities in Canada, and the world! Vancouver, Montreal and Ottawa would be great starts!
One thing I would add is a northern extension of the Ontario line to Finch. This would act as further relief to the overcrowded Yonge line and would connect Seneca college to the network. This would also be a primarily elevated extension.
That was almost the plan Metrolinx had they had a website for Relief Line North it would have run from Eglinton to Sheppard Line, but then FORD was elected
@@Globalurb The problem with Richmond Hill is they won't use it. The feeder system out there is terrible and it is not likely to change because the citizens of Peel Region have made it clear that what they really value is low taxes.
Crayoning, verb (Crayonista, noun) - Performing strategic transport planning with a box of coloured crayons, using them to draw lines on a map without thinking of the implications. Created by the excellent London Reconnections blog! Reece what you’re doing isn’t crayoning because it has some .. reality in it! You’re not proposing an extension of the subway to Pickering 😂
My suggestion for Pickering/Durham is an Express LRT running between Oshawa East and Pearson Airport and eventually on to Mississauga in place of Reece's Eglinton Crosstown West Extension to Mississauga, interlined with an extension between Pearson Airport and Brampton - It would provide local service at grade (or elevated) in Durham, Mississauga, and Brampton with grade-separated express service connecting only with other major transit lines such as GO, subways, and other LRTs within Toronto - My suggestion would be for them to go with something faster than the Bombardier LRVs - I have tagged it "MBTD Express LRT" for Mississauga Brampton Toronto Durham Express LRT
It's honestly amazing that there's been virtually no effort in changing this. By comparison to many projects, it's fruit that hangs so low you have to limbo your way under it in order to avoid it.
I agree. All of the points made are valid and I don't understand why this is not on any official list for expansion. It would be top priority on my list. I especially love the idea of the Sheppard line trains proceeding directly to York U and beyond. It makes greater sense now that there is a lot of higher density construction between Bathurst and Sheppard West.
@@sonicboy678 To be fair, this was actually part of Rob Ford's transit plan in 2010 that everybody railed against, and the idea goes back to at least 1986. Not that I was ever a fan of the Fords, but I think extending the Sheppard subway east and west was a good and necessary idea that got thrown out with the bathwater due the Fords' general incompetence and the political animosity towards them, rather than its merit. I also always found the argument that "extending the Sheppard subway would be a waste because no-one uses it" infuriating because the main reason why nobody uses it is because it was never finished--as is, it's too short and doesn't connect to anything. Extending it would surely increase ridership, especially as development along Sheppard would gradually increase in Scarborough.
@@sonicboy678 I would rather ram my head into that fruit just to retrieve it (Implying that I would rather build the Sheppard west and Sheppard Yonge connection as a separate line while digging deep into the Crayola box of colors)
The thumbnail reminded me of when I was a kid in the 80s. After a family trip to NY I brought back a subway map and thought the TTC Ride Guide needed to look more like New York’s and went to town with my crayons.
Sheppard West has to be elevated across the West Don River. The rest underground makes sense. Connecting to the Spadina Line (Line Y as I call it) is not that hard as west of Dufferin in construction in a field.
Definitely agree with you here Reese, I feel like so much money is being poured into North of the city when the West (peel) is far more hungry for rapid transit to the core. What are we in Mississauga and Brampton getting in the next 5 years? A North-South LRT and increased GO service? Phoey
My suggestion for Mississauga is an Express LRT running between Mississauga, Pearson Airport, and Oshawa East in place of Reece's Eglinton Crosstown West Extension to Mississauga, interlined with an extension between Pearson Airport and Brampton - It would provide local service at grade (or elevated) in Mississauga, Brampton, and Durham with grade-separated express service connecting only with other major transit lines such as GO, subways, and other LRTs within Toronto - My suggestion would be for them to go with something faster than the Bombardier LRVs - I have tagged it "MBTD Express LRT" for Mississauga Brampton Toronto Durham Express LRT
This video was very enjoyable because you didn't have a script and there wasn't a cut every sentence. The analysis was well thought out. More videos like this
One thing thats important to note about extending the Yonge Line to RHC is that it provides the Yonge Line with a direct connection to the High Frequency bus corridor along Highway 407. Even if it doesn't make sense for YR, this is a project I think GO themselves have been pushing for this strongly especially since the Highway 407 transitway is in the works.
As a York Region resident, I think extending to hwy 7 makes sense. The amount of Residential expansion York is planning by 2050 will more than make up for it. Hwy 7 is a major roadway and could make sense for an LRT of some sort connecting Brampton to Markham at some point in the future. Adding the stops to hwy 7 will be a nice starting point for when/if such a line gets built.
I live near Birchmount and Sheppard and I'd love to see an extension on line 4 Eastbound. Having to be crammed into an 85 bus is just ridiculous. Plus if it connects to Line 2 that'd even be better.
I have been a proponent of the SESE for a long time - I don’t agree with Reece's proposed alignment though - My suggestion is that the line be extended east and interline north and south at McCowan and Sheppard with a future extension of Line 2 into Markham ON
I think that the Yonge subway extension makes sense because it removes the awkward station wait period for viva blue. It will be a substantially smoother transfer. I get Steeles though.
I agree about Yonge, but more because of the strategic need for a direct connection to Highway 7 in general and Viva on it in particular. The point about quality of service in York is fair, but ultimately it IS the infrastructure we have, will be the closest thing to a development spine York is getting and also enable a link to whatever 407 rapid transit we end up with (even if it stays mixed traffic coaches it is, in my view, a very important regional linkage).
@@Bureaucromancer Definitely, but I also think Go infrastructure is not often thought about enough (oddly). For example, the Barrie line had it's concord station cancelled which would have been it's 407 as well as VIVA link. Langstaff Go is right in the area of Richmond Hill. They could definitely improve that interchange and service. Everyone has their own use-case, but I think if the GO system gets to it's 30 min or 15 min frequency within the GTA, I think a lot of the perceived need for subways will diminish. Not that I'm complaining. I think the subway to VMC for example is fine. It was going to be extended all the way to York you and the 407, it would have been silly not to extend it to VMC at that point. It's just if the GO train gets to its 15-30 minute service, it will be just as quick if not quicker than a subway to get places. I know myself, the only reason I use VMC subway is when the Go train is not running or it's hourly schedule severely limits my schedule. Just to clarify as well, I don't think there's anything 'wrong' with different lines serving the same purpose. I actually think it's good as it provides redundancy and options. If the subway is closed, you can take the GO and vice versa. Short trip, take the subway. Long trip, take the Go. Yet, I don't think government like this. When I queried about the Concord Go, it was stated that it would take ridership away from VMC subway. That might be true, but making numbers look good is not a reason not to build something that would be a great network node.
@@Wofly-me3pq Until some form of 407 transitwat is built I don't think Concord GO makes sense. Its in the middle of nowhere and and you'd need to build dedicated bus infrastructure to get GO there.
@@Wofly-me3pq The Concord cancellation was utter madness, that I have to imagine will be reversed sooner than later. @nickssaa Dedicated bus infrastructure yes, but not a full 407 Transitway build-out. Even the EA talks about potential to implement key stations and useful bus ramps independently from the full corridor, and I can't emphasize enough how valuable I think that would be. Quite frankly I think the way to dot he 407 corridor is incremental improvements, rail ready where it's not mixed traffic, with the explicit idea that it's not likely we will ever actually operate in a fully built busway configuration, but go to rail as the last gaps in the actual separated right of way are closed. Also remember that Concord would serve Hwy 7 Viva as well as 407 buses, so this is not ONLY about GO to GO connections.
@@Wofly-me3pq "I don't think there's anything 'wrong' with different lines serving the same purpose" "it provides redundancy and options" - Exactly!!!
Would love to see a dream-build video for Toronto transit. If you had carte blanche and there were no previously existing transit-ways, subways etc. in Toronto, what would you do?
I know this is very two years ago but for what it's worth, the King/Queen corridor is absolutely crying out for a subway. It has been for decades and I feel many cities would have identified that. The density is there, from the Beaches to Parkdale. Only a couple of others even mention this
Great video, love your stuff! One thing I would change is to extend line 2 (or maybe line 5) to University of Toronto Scarborough. Its one of the fastest growing schools in Toronto and has absolutely horrible connectivity. I have to take a bus and switch at Guildwood Go, Kenendy, or Scarborough Town to get downtown, and that trip is decently long. It feels like if you don't have a car, UTSC is the most inaccessible out of all the post-secondary institutions.
@@RMTransit No both. First, I have both the SRT/Line B (for Bloor-Danf) station and Line S station elevated. Line S would be along the current SRT alignment. Line B would be about 70m south of it. Line S would follow Progress to Centennial to Malvern. Line B would follow current SRT route to Highland Creek to Centennial to UTSC. There are 2 sort of interchange stations but no revenue track connection.
Someone else mentioned a no-budget version of this video, but I'm also interested. What would you do if you had a clean slate in Toronto. We still had all the streets in roughly the same alighmments, same neighborhoods, same everything, just no TTC or GO. How different would the subway map look?
I'm a Torontonian and have lived downtown for the past 30 years. I can't imagine what all those folks from the outer suburbs must deal with in their daily commute, whether it's to get downtown, or travel downtown to transfer to a line going out in another direction, where they work! Some days it feels like everyone in the GTA is standing on the same subway platform as I am. The way transit in this city is laid out, you might just as well say you can't get there from here. What I see is successive governments coming to power (ahem!), erasing what transit was planned, against the advice of the transit authorities and urban planners that they paid to create a cohesive system -and replacing it with what the current power brokers would like to see. That includes much of what you have discussed it this video. I applaud your efforts in trying to pull all these loose ends together, but I suspect that we won't see much positive change until this governmental meddling in planning and concepts, clearly beyond their understanding, has somehow been controlled.
I agree, we need more stops - The stops on the Eglinton Crosstown are an average of 900 metres apart - Not everyone can walk half that far, or even close to it
Since Adam Giambrone left the TTC I've felt that it and the Metrolinx planning table. You make some very good points on useful project changes and or addons. If it can be done , space allowing, HK style cross platform line changes, drastically decrease travel time and frustrations, and are a safer less disruptive option than signals to merger "heavy"/active trains. In addition adding on smart stopping and gate systems on the platforms increase safety and cuing for trains, further reducing stress of traveling on mass rail. Also: powerline utility workers have already been seen at the 404 and Sheppard working on the grid required for the Sheppard extension (east) project.
Line 1 to Malvern is interesting think i like it slightly better then the Crosstown east extension probably good to put a station at Centennial College Sheppard and Neilson as well as Malvern after STC
I recently caught myself watching your transit videos for hours, so informative for the future. I don't have a mobile phone but if I did I'd probably watch your videos on the bus and subway for hours too since I haven't renewed my license and take transit exclusively. Instead I just look out the window at the trees in Scarborough when I'm on line 2, and on the bus routes too. Good wishes, I can tell you more than love reporting on transit around the World. I certainly love the videos you do on the Toronto/Ontario transit.
I wonder whether ordinary citizens of Toronto would share your enthusiasm for elevated structures -even though they are much cheaper than tunnels. Elevated lines are visually very intrusive. and there may also be worries about noise in residential areas. On a more positive note, I would strongly agree with your emphasis on providing good transit links to Universities.
@@williamerazo3921 You miss my point. Everyone will agree that existing elevated lines are great for transporting masses of people. What people will object to (on noise and aesthetic grounds) is the building of new elevated railways,
Doing the work to connect Sheppard should be done before the Richmond hill ext in my opinion... Having a rail route from vmc to Scarborough would be a relief off line 1 as well, don't stop the Ontario line at eg for another 20 years keep it going up to Don mills and line 5 and line 6 should meet at the airport transit hub a station with 4 or more platforms. The TTC is gonna have to invest in connecting missing links in it's system
I agree with you on connecting Line 5 with Line 6 - I would extend Line 6 all the way to Pearson Airport, connect it to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, and have the trains run all the way through to Kennedy, (i.e. the beginnings of an LRT beltline running around the entire city)
Richmond Hill extension is key bro. That's where the BRT starts. If you end it on Steeles theres quite a few kilometers of Yonge without rapid transit.
I have seen many of your videos about the TTC transit system and the videos your in I am very impressed with your TTC transit videos and your amazing knowledge about making the TTC transit system way more efficient with subway extension lines and your other impressive transit videos about other transit systems in other cities in Canada and around the world !
The proposed tunnel section on the Mississauga Transitway at Hurontario and Rathburn cannot be built because of the underground storm water siphon of Cooksville Creek located there. This is what the engineers advised me when I queried about driving the Hurontario LRT underground in that area at a PIC back in late June 2012 and subsequently. Like most engineering question marks, it can be done but the cost is prohibitive.
great video, here are some comments! -The Sheppard West extension has to pass under a deep valley so a tunnel would be very expensive. My idea is turn south, go elevated down Yonge, provide a station at Avondale for the condos there, then use the 401 ROW until you hit Wilson and continue along elevated until Wilson station. -Extending Sheppard East should just take it elevated all the way to Malvern, no need for Line 2 to go all that way too. Instead I would consider extending Line 2 north of Sheppard/McCowan to some of the dense developments up there such as the Woodside redevelopment planned. -Surprised you didn't mention an Ontario Line extension! I would run it elevated on Don Mills to Sheppard (Fairview Mall) and then use the 404 ROW to get north to the massive employment zone in Markham at Hwy 7/Leslie. This also helps remove the need for the Yonge North extension which I agree makes sense to just go to Steeles. Furthermore, a western elevated OL extension along the Queensway would be my choice, as there is massive development happening there and no transit planned (Humber Bay will be in walking distance and have the future Park Lawn GO). -The Eglinton West extension to Mississauga is probably something that will be needed far down the road but for now I think that improved BRT service in the transitway can more than handle demand. I would cut this. -The Finch line should definitely be extended down to Woodbine GO, but I disagree about the eastern extension to Downsview. It's very costly for what can be done by travelling one stop south on Line 1.
A Sheppard West extension would very likely cross the Don River at Earl Bales via portals and a bridge rather than a tunnel, similar to the Ontario Line plans. The tunnel is already shallow at Yonge.
Thanks for the comment! I'd have Sheppard cross the ravine via bridge rather than tunnel. For Finch West, the extension to Downsview would mostly be surface level in existing row, so should be fairly cheap!
I still think joining line2 and line4 at Sheppard/McCowan to create another U line would be best and avoids a transfer like you’ve previously complained about ;) Agreed on interlining Sheppard to Vaughan. Being able to get a one seat ride from VCC to STC or even down to the beaches would be amazing.
I want all of this, but with some small, non subway additions that will make the network truly shine. Firstly I'd love streetcar extensions that would integrate the St. Claire streetcar line into the rest of the network, create more dedicated tramways, and create more car-free corridors downtown. Secondly, I’d love more BRT lines outside of Old Toronto to fill in the gaps between subway lines. Toronto already has great bus service with 5-10 minute frequency, but it’s much slower than it could be due to needlessly tight stop spacing and a lack of bus lanes on congested corridors. It wouldn’t have to be elaborately overbuilt for the service it offers, like the Viva transitway, but just have better spacing and dedicated lanes where needed or available like Vancouver’s Rapid Bus.
Surely, if you were supreme leader of the Province of Ontario (or something along those lines), York Regional Transit would either be made to run decent bus services connecting to the subway or replaced with an all-in-one GTA/GTHA public transport authority that would? Therefore the argument against the full Richmond Hill Centre extension is removed.
"Toronto" should refer to the GTHA. Politically it may not be a good idea, but in terms of planning it seems like half the job just to talk about City of Toronto.
@@fehzorz I agree (although I can`t comment informedly of whether or not it is good politics, as I am not well enough informed on that matter). Using Toronto to refer to the GTA would align with ordinary practice in most of Australia (except possibly Queensland), where it is ordinary to refer to whole metro areas by just the city name. In mainland states (other than Queensland) city councils are smaller than Old Toronto is as a proportion of the population of the metro area. Except in Queensland, local government doesn`t run ordinary public transport buses, states do. Local government in Australia also doesn`t run schools or police, states do.
@@T0000000000001 I'm Australian too. Canada is a mixed bag. "Halifax" includes a huge rural area, Winnipeg is about right, while Toronto and Vancouver have many "cities" in the metro areas with their own identities. In the US there is a lot more of people not thinking of suburbs as part of the city they surround than Canada. I think Australia might be on its own, and even now "Western Sydney" is almost its own identity separate from Sydney.
I am an Australian who lived in Toronto - Sheppard/Victoria Park - from 1970 to 1975. My old 1970 road map shows that there was no development north of Finch and since Toronto extended to Steeles, the TTC could provide an excellent service for the whole of the Toronto area, which it did. However, Toronto has now sprawled way past Steeles into other regions and this seems to be the main cause of many problems; namely trying to interface transport between the various regions. Surely it is time for the Province to take control of transit in the GTA. Surely the size of the GTA demands one authority who can look at the “big picture” and provide a properly thought out integrated system. If the Province did assume full control, would that suddenly unleash more money to accelerate the backlog of projects?
Its a good question, I think from my experience in Vancouver which has a unified system, we could probably see better overall service, but it would likely be at the expense of the core.
Hope this is a running series across all cities across the world, not just Canada! I’ve been doing this for London since I was about 4 or 5, would love for you to do it and compare what I’ve thought of!
If they had the money, they should have done a Finch-Sheppard subway (Line 6, down the YSSE to Finch West and east along Sheppard). Agree that Yonge extension should've stopped at Steeles.
Here here! This is a great plan. The lack of connectivity - between GO and TTC - is something that I think is under emphasized so it’s good to see you highlight the Agincourt and Downsview Park transfer points. These could be really key in stitching together the whole system (along with Kennedy, Bloor, Lansdowne, and other transfer points) particularly if there is a 1-fare integration for Toronto. Having to pay an extra $5 to hop on a GO can be a disincentive to folks, as opposed to waiting for the free subway they already paid for. I definitely concur on a Line 1 extension stopping at Steeles. It makes no sense to extend to RH. Rather, finding a way to introduce frequent service on the RH Line would instead be a way better service likely to draw in RH transit users. And that would also enhance more connections by adding a 6th (7th if Milton is a Go) true RER Line.
Better connections between YRT and GO could make up some of the gaps that would result from not bringing the subway to RHC, such as the Unionville GO/VIVA Purple Stop which is a fairly long unpleasant walk at the moment. Improved GO service on the Richmond Hill Line would really help too. I have taken VIVA Purple/Blue then the Yonge Subway to Union Station before and not once did taking the GO train even cross my mind. That would manage a good number of trips the RH Extension would be used for. Extending non-rush hour service on that GO line would also be great for the crowds you see on the subway when there's a Leafs or Jays game.
These are great and creative suggestions, Reece. When you take politics out of transit planning, there are workable solutions. Toronto should create a position called Transit Czar!
Ending it at Steeles is the same problem as ending it at Finch. It's parochialism. The Bloor line should have been out at Square One 40 years ago. The subway finally, FINALLY left Toronto out to other places whose taxes have been paying for it since the 1950s, but Yonge, really, is the line that SHOULD have been extended. The entire backbone of York is up Yonge and the people we could get out of cars would be phenomenal. Transit line location is a matter of engineering the city you want to have in 30 years, not dealing with the one that started being built 30 years ago. It's about shaping the future. If you build it, they will come. When I moved to North York in 2000, all I heard about was what a useless white elephant the Sheppard line was. I live in that neighbourhood, and I've seen the transformation of Sheppard east from Yonge in those 20 years since it opened and the astonishing verticality that's evolved and continues to accelerate. Ending Yonge at Finch in 1974 was a huge mistake, and stopping it at Steeles is just wasting billions to compound it. Build the damn thing to Richmond Hill at least. Let's get it up to at least Hwy 7, if not Major Mack, and really get a hundred thousand people out of their cars. If York doesn't step up (which is you convicting them before they commit the crime, by the way), well, that's on them; but you're kind of putting the cart before the horse in dumping on them when THERE'S NO SUBWAY YET FOR THEM TO BUILD LINES TO.
Sheapperd West and Sheppard East are both planned with Metrolinx as a prerequisite to construction of the Yonge North expansion. As well a station in the Distillery District is currently being discussed within the TTC in order to boost movement to the east side of Downtown
Unfortunately, that service is unlikely to arrive and it wouldn't relieve the congestion which mostly exists to the south of the southernmost RH line station.
How about this:- a proper Queen St subway running between Long Branch and West Hill via Lakeshore Blvd West, The Queensway, Queen St W & E, and Kingston Rd with stations every ~600m to 700m. The stations would be built cut-and-cover with otherwise mostly tunneled construction between Roncesvalles and Birchmount, elevated on the Queensway, and cut-and-cover tunnel on Lakeshore and Kingston Rd. Each station would have plenty of elevators on each side so that if one shaft is down for maintenance then the other shaft would provide a back-up plus public washrooms in each station and enough security features to exclude the vagrants. This new subway would also be designed to accommodate future easterly and westerly extensions to Oshawa and Clarkson plus there would turnback tracks at least every ~5 km and each station would have platform screen doors as in Singapore with adequate heating and air conditioning in each station at platform level. Dream, dream, dream!
Hey Bro, love the content and your expertise. One piece of advice though...think about a vacation in the Caribbean, a little sunshine does us all well....:)
Your ears must be ringing. I was just telling my husband last night that maybe it'd be fun for us (your fans and yourself) to form a task force to come up with our best transit vision then make it into a petition or something.
Love your plans but and I'd hope you see this as logical an ontario line extension from science center straight north to shepard line 4 just give line four another key connection and a major union shepard north sound connection.
Just checked that corridor and my proposal would for the extension adding two stations one at Lawrence modifying part of the existing Donaway shopping complex to a station and at York Mills using a large parking lot as the station location. Before linking at Don Mills with 4
Lots of great ideas. I particularly like your suggestion to add the Cherry St. stop and properly connect the Sheppard stump line on both ends like in the original plans (what's there now is so ridiculously embarrassing). Not keen on elevating some trains though. Too much visual clutter that would feel intrusive and divisive, like how the Gardiner feels for many.
Elevated guideways for trains can be both lower and much smaller than the Gardiner, and I think Vancouver has already shown that they can be built without negatively impacting the visual atmosphere
For the Yonge subway extension, they are thinking of people in Richmond Hill working downtown but GO trains would be better for that. Taking a subway for more than 10 stops gets tedious. For those who don't believe me, try taking the subway from Kennedy to Kipling
Love some of these ideas, particularly in Etobicoke, but I do agree with others below the cost estimate for Sheppard W is way too low for going under the Don River. Putting some of these into reality though, I think you would have a really tough time convincing a lot of the public of using elevated guideways this much, even if they are more aesthetically pleasing than past versions and cheaper than tunneling. People have bitter tastes over the SRT and lots of people are digging in against the elevates OL, Davenport Diamond, original plans for Eglinton W, etc... Re interlining, I don't see a reason Line 2 should be the one going all the way to Malvern; it'll be a long enough line to STC and if issues at one end occur, it could bring down more of the network, even with short-turns. I am surprised that both OL up Don Mills or Line 5 East aren't mentioned here.
Re. Extending Finch LRT SE to Downsview Park Go Station. Honestly this is where the Bolton Line is needed and needs to use the kitchener sub, and not the Barrie Sub. A Bolton line could connect to the Finch LRT and a westward extension of the Sheppard subway line and be a massive improvement for Northwest Toronto
Non-Toronto native here. a 40km commuter line from Bolton in the north-west running through Humbermede, then into Toronto along the existing freight rail corridor, would give better access to rail for more Toronto suburbs. It would also link to Line 6 and Line 5 on the subway system. Could be run with diesel railcars initially to build patronage for later electrification.
It's been considered, it is a freight line though so we will have to see if it ever happens! (If demand outweighs the institutional capacity to negotiate this stuff)
I really love this video! Hearing your opinion is like a very well educated Fantasy Subway map and I would love to see more cities like this. Especially cities with new or not currently existing projects like Ottawa, Kitchener, Hamilton, Guelph, Kingston Ect. Love hearing the opinion of someone who knows a lot on this topic.
For the Barrie line you could also add stations at Landsdowne and future Fairbanks Station and act as express line for north and south transit west of dufferin
Another benefit to your suggestion of branching the Line 4 into Line 1 is that these trains would run through Finch West station, connecting with Line 6, so that people travelling E-W across the north end can make one connection instead of 2. My own ideas: 1. Line 2, extend to the zoo in the east and Sherway Gardens in the west 2. Branch the Ontario Line at Spadina, continue along Queen the up to Roncesvalles -> Dundas West -> the Junction -> Weston -> Rexdale. 3. Make all streetcar connections with the subway tunneled into the station similar to Spadina and St. Clair West And I have to say, considering how long you've lived here, your knowledge of Toronto is very impressive.
I'm 100% with you on the sheppard line extensions, the line 2 using line 3 already existing path and the egl crosstown west to the miss. transit way. I think extending eglinton line 5 east to Eglinton GO would be a valuable connection as well as extending line 2 west to at the very least Sherway Gardens. And maybe down the road consider extending the ontario line north along don mills north to don mills station meeting up with line 4 as it is pretty densely populated street.
With an aging population, many stations along Yonge line are sorely lacking escalators. Take Rosedale or Summerhill station for example. Old people can't handle the stairs as easily, especially if they go shopping. Failing to retrofit escalator in tight staircase space, at least build strips of incline surface along the stairs to drag up/down shopping carts with wheels. Do you have any creative ideas for TTC?
I would add the caveat of if the sheppard line extension ends up greatly reducing the Finch bus levels, then stop it at Downsview. If ridership remains similar to current levels (50k Finch West, 20+ Finch East, 35k express) then build out a LRT all the way. And eventually Steeles.
Reece, your a big fan of loops. Why not look turning the U into a weird oval at Sheppard and make the existing other extensions as branches. I would think that you would then be able to fit more trains in the loop.
A comment on Line 1 extension: I agree with not extending the Yonge portion of Line 1 into York. Line 1 is already one of the busiest subway lines in North America. Because of the commuter parking at Finch, the train is absolutely sardine packed by the time it leaves the terminal station southbound and it only gets even more packed as you go south. The west side of Line 1 is much less congested during rush hour, and so it can handle the capacity from extending into York. Also, we need a whole new north-south line. The Ontario Line should extend all the way up Don Mills, meeting the Sheppard line at Fairview, and continuing into the suburbs. For the Ontario Line, I would also drop Moss Park and Riverside/Leslieville stations. That area of the city is served by streetcar lines at Queen, Gerrard, and King. Having subway stations on the east side of downtown is not the best utilization of the money. Last, the Sheppard Line would be what I extend to the Airport in the west, and to UTSC in the east. The Sheppard line is so underutilized that it can take the capacity from the Airport. Passengers can then transfer to downtown on Line 1 at Sheppard West.
Elevating the entire western end of Crosstown through central Etobicoke would offend the scruples of too many upper middle class types there and Rob Ford sold off too much of the required land along the corridor to developer friends in a misguided attempt (ostensible or otherwise) to increase potential demand and therefore justify the western extension in the first place.
I live there. Ppl along Eglinton here are not rich... mostly full of low income to low middle class people. The main reason why is because the city sold off the property they allocated for the richview expressway so they just don't have much space to work with.
@@soso-zz9qf Good point, sorry about that, I should have been clearer. I was referring to the enclaves of folks who live in the vast acreages a few hundred meters away from Eglinton; especially to the south and beyond down toward Bloor. These major transit corridors, such as the Crosstown, in most North American cities have to be fed by surface routes and are not built simply to provide for folks living right on the line. As we both stated in our original posts, the land that would have otherwise been there to provide the necessary width for surface running on a dedicated right of way while still accommodating the current roadway was sold off. Now, instead, Etobicoke gets a much more expensive underground LRT in an area where they had the land available to do a surface route with a dedicated right-of-way.
@@stephenjones8928 I fully agree with you. I went to school and grew up in the area, but knowing the types who live in princess Ann out to James garden I doubt they'd be taking transit or even concerned about Eglinton. It's already seen as a massive blight and mostly just ignored from my anecdotal experience. As it stands the people most benefiting from the LRT are the high density corridors from Scarlett to Martin Grove then secondly those along the east mall, and along the west mall. I'm sure there's more density too I missed but that's just what I know the best. The 112 (runs along the west mall) already terminates at renforth and I'm sure they'll route the 111 (runs along the east mall) and 46 (runs along Lloyd manor) to Martin Grove. Really wouldn't make any sense any other way. I think it's extremely backwards their justification for having it underground and now they cut a bunch of stations that would've been useful. Eglinton west of Scarlett (especially west of Kipling!) is a huge pedestrian unfriendly stroad with little good development going on or planned. An elevated line with redevelopment of the road would've been really great in my area. But hey glass half full right? My area is finally getting good transit and we won't have to be completely reliant on cars. Many low income people finally be able to easily access midtown without a car. Unsatisfactory progress is still progress!
@@soso-zz9qf Yes, the folks right on the line do benefit most but the north-south feeders will be required to put bums in seats to help justify the cost. The link to Pearson, the Mississauga Transitway at Renforth Gateway and the UP/GO station in Mount Dennis will help in this regard for this west end extension of the Crosstown. My high school was York Memo at Keele and Eglinton (the one that burnt and whose students were temporarily moved to Scarlett Heights CI) but I also lived at Scarlett and Eglinton for years. Now I am in Mississauga not far from Eglinton, so I know the road well! But I agree with you in that transit is not just about moving loads of people but moving them quickly over long distances as this well help get them out of their cars and onto transit. Back in the day, the TTC was excellent and, so, I didn't start driving until my late 30's. But increasing congestion and tax cuts have changed the equation. We have lost time and will pay even more now instead. Here's to the future though; cheers!
Some of your plans I agree with. But I think the Yonge line should be extended as far as it needs to be along with an EXPRESS line digging under the existing Line 1 serving popular stops such as Steeles Sheppard Eglinton Bloor Queen Union. I think this service should cost $1 to $2 more on top of whatever the regular fare is as it will get you to these stops much quicker. I highly doubt I'll be alive when this happens or ever happens.
Now we need a politician to stand up and be counted. Hmmm, I see no hands. That's the problem. Sorry Reece. I do not see Metrolinx in the room either...darn. At least not yet. Great video. Cheers.
Having grown up in Willowdale, I am intimately familiar with north central Toronto. Sheppard West bus service is frequent, but its not fun. Crowding is the rule, and it takes a LONG TIME to get between the Spadina and Yong lines. Just keep extending the subway west until it reaches Downsview station, take a breather, and then turn the attention elsewhere. Ending the line at Steeles? Maybe the money would be spent better elsewhere. I do know that buses along that stretch up to the Langstaff terminal at Highways 7 and 407 are very busy, so who knows. I also think at some point Sheppard east needs to be connected to Scarborough. Don Mills station is a very important station, but only half as important as it might be if it were connected in more than one direction. Again, there's some suburbia to traverse to get to the important hubs. Then again, I could see myself saying the same thing about stretches of the Bloor line forty years ago. One thing I've noticed is that like the movie Field of Dreams, "if you build it they will come". I mean that sometimes stations that didn't seem particularly importand at the time seem to suddenly having developments blow-up around them, incresing population density to a point where the station is suddenly woth the effort. Why did North York Centre need to be built? Well, I'm sure a lot of people are glad it did. And the land around both the Bayview and Don Mills stations on Sheppard east have exploded vertically in recent years. You know which areas around stations haven't seen much growth? The ones that aren't zoned for anything but low-density detached single-family dwellings. Zoning bylaws in too many places still think it's the 50s or 60s, and this has to change or TO will end up having no middle class.
The Finch West LRT connection to Downsview is interesting... I've sometimes had the idea to connect the Sheppard West extension to Downsview as well and Sheppard West, those two can kind of work together I guess
Everytime I think of the tunnelled Line 5 extension into Etobikoke or the tunnelled Line 2 extension into Scarborough, I metaphorically cry. We'd be able to get so much more rapid transit if our politicians weren't so fixated on tunnels.
Probably how construction bidding, speed, time, budgeting is different dependent on the location. The efficiency of spending X amount of dollars /km of similar past projects in each city/country would help get an accurate price per each location. What these differences are, sorry don't know them but he was alluding to that, just like how there's a difference between Toronto and Montreal transit spending process.
i think North Yonge could use the express/local train, it doesn’t have to be quad-track all the way, it could quad-track at selected busier stations (let’s say Steeles), so it can go from Hwy 7 all the way to Steeles. I got this idea from Taoyuan Airport MRT
I think it's a mistake to limit your fictional budget to the actual budget, as policy and the will to publicly finance infrastructure project is one of the most important criteria on the quality of a public transit.
Meh. I see a purpose in doing it both ways. Frankly this video seems to be more about pointing out adjustments to what is already on the books than a true dream project list. Given that I'd think a follow-up outlining a next round of projects would be better than cramming everything into a single video.
Extending on Yong will probably kill Blue, the only line of viva with good enough frequency. Orange and purple are both half dead during non-rush hours
FYI the Mississauga transitway was designed to be converted into LRT in the future if possible, no modifications to bridge heights, etc would need to happen. They calculated everything to make sure an LRT would fit
The major question mark in my mind is whether it is worthwhile to maintain a mixed traffic functionality or go for a full rail conversion. I can honestly make good enough arguments either way in my head that what I'll actually say definitely is that I think the decision needs to be made in combination with finalizing mode and design specifics for 427 and 407 rapid transit.
@@Bureaucromancer That's a good question
@@Bureaucromancer I think by the time the Transitway is converted into LRT, driverless car technology will be starting to become well established. So, they could create a system where when the buses to into the LRT area they could use the same PTC/driverless tech. And then you would get the advantages of both: a continued expressway for buses and an LRT system.
@@Bureaucromancer Something similar like buses using the streetcar row into St Clair West station.
I love smart transit planning like this.
PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE make this a running series and do it for other cities in Canada, and the world! Vancouver, Montreal and Ottawa would be great starts!
Agreed. I would like see Reeces takes on Dallas and/or Houston.
And Hamilton
Calgary and Edmonton, do it in 1 video and include HSR between the two
Good idea!
Please do vancouver
One thing I would add is a northern extension of the Ontario line to Finch. This would act as further relief to the overcrowded Yonge line and would connect Seneca college to the network. This would also be a primarily elevated extension.
That was almost the plan Metrolinx had they had a website for Relief Line North it would have run from Eglinton to Sheppard Line, but then FORD was elected
Yeah that'll likely happen eventually!
Or even further North to Richmond Hill to replace the existing Go Line and proposed subway extension.
@@Globalurb The problem with Richmond Hill is they won't use it. The feeder system out there is terrible and it is not likely to change because the citizens of Peel Region have made it clear that what they really value is low taxes.
I would also recommend extending north but would terminate at Sheppard
Crayoning, verb (Crayonista, noun) - Performing strategic transport planning with a box of coloured crayons, using them to draw lines on a map without thinking of the implications.
Created by the excellent London Reconnections blog!
Reece what you’re doing isn’t crayoning because it has some .. reality in it! You’re not proposing an extension of the subway to Pickering 😂
Haha indeed James, not yet ;)
My suggestion for Pickering/Durham is an Express LRT running between Oshawa East and Pearson Airport and eventually on to Mississauga in place of Reece's Eglinton Crosstown West Extension to Mississauga, interlined with an extension between Pearson Airport and Brampton - It would provide local service at grade (or elevated) in Durham, Mississauga, and Brampton with grade-separated express service connecting only with other major transit lines such as GO, subways, and other LRTs within Toronto - My suggestion would be for them to go with something faster than the Bombardier LRVs - I have tagged it "MBTD Express LRT" for Mississauga Brampton Toronto Durham Express LRT
@@furryrider208 That's like 80km
I cringe when I think that Sheppard West and Sheppard Yonge are still not connected by Line 4.
It's honestly amazing that there's been virtually no effort in changing this. By comparison to many projects, it's fruit that hangs so low you have to limbo your way under it in order to avoid it.
I agree. All of the points made are valid and I don't understand why this is not on any official list for expansion. It would be top priority on my list. I especially love the idea of the Sheppard line trains proceeding directly to York U and beyond. It makes greater sense now that there is a lot of higher density construction between Bathurst and Sheppard West.
@@sonicboy678 To be fair, this was actually part of Rob Ford's transit plan in 2010 that everybody railed against, and the idea goes back to at least 1986. Not that I was ever a fan of the Fords, but I think extending the Sheppard subway east and west was a good and necessary idea that got thrown out with the bathwater due the Fords' general incompetence and the political animosity towards them, rather than its merit.
I also always found the argument that "extending the Sheppard subway would be a waste because no-one uses it" infuriating because the main reason why nobody uses it is because it was never finished--as is, it's too short and doesn't connect to anything. Extending it would surely increase ridership, especially as development along Sheppard would gradually increase in Scarborough.
@@ceruleanstone Absolutely!!!
@@sonicboy678 I would rather ram my head into that fruit just to retrieve it (Implying that I would rather build the Sheppard west and Sheppard Yonge connection as a separate line while digging deep into the Crayola box of colors)
The thumbnail reminded me of when I was a kid in the 80s. After a family trip to NY I brought back a subway map and thought the TTC Ride Guide needed to look more like New York’s and went to town with my crayons.
It was a joy many of us enjoyed as kids!
Same here!
Really creative but thoughtful ideas! Obsessed with the Malvern->STC->North York->York U route! Very connective.
Thanks Rodney!
TTC should hire you!
Metrolinx has higher authority. Metrolinx should hire him.
Your plan sounds much more reasonable than the governments current plan. I especially liked your proposal of the Sheppard line as well.
Thank you!
Sheppard West has to be elevated across the West Don River. The rest underground makes sense.
Connecting to the Spadina Line (Line Y as I call it) is not that hard as west of Dufferin in construction in a field.
Definitely agree with you here Reese, I feel like so much money is being poured into North of the city when the West (peel) is far more hungry for rapid transit to the core. What are we in Mississauga and Brampton getting in the next 5 years? A North-South LRT and increased GO service? Phoey
My suggestion for Mississauga is an Express LRT running between Mississauga, Pearson Airport, and Oshawa East in place of Reece's Eglinton Crosstown West Extension to Mississauga, interlined with an extension between Pearson Airport and Brampton - It would provide local service at grade (or elevated) in Mississauga, Brampton, and Durham with grade-separated express service connecting only with other major transit lines such as GO, subways, and other LRTs within Toronto - My suggestion would be for them to go with something faster than the Bombardier LRVs - I have tagged it "MBTD Express LRT" for Mississauga Brampton Toronto Durham Express LRT
This video was very enjoyable because you didn't have a script and there wasn't a cut every sentence. The analysis was well thought out. More videos like this
There's many cuts.
would love to see you do the same thing but without the budget constraints! just everything you would love to see
Agreed! I wanna see his $300 billion plan that assumes density will follow to support any transit layout.
Same, I'd love to see a "screw reality" approach to this video
Ok, maybe in future videos I'll add that!
One thing thats important to note about extending the Yonge Line to RHC is that it provides the Yonge Line with a direct connection to the High Frequency bus corridor along Highway 407. Even if it doesn't make sense for YR, this is a project I think GO themselves have been pushing for this strongly especially since the Highway 407 transitway is in the works.
While I do think that has some value, we are a long way from needing that level of capacity to serve the 407 Bus corridor.
As a York Region resident, I think extending to hwy 7 makes sense. The amount of Residential expansion York is planning by 2050 will more than make up for it. Hwy 7 is a major roadway and could make sense for an LRT of some sort connecting Brampton to Markham at some point in the future. Adding the stops to hwy 7 will be a nice starting point for when/if such a line gets built.
@@RMTransit define "long"
Great video - generally agree with your suggestions. Definitely appreciate the love for the Sheppard Line, it is much needed
Indeed, it would be very valuable!
I live near Birchmount and Sheppard and I'd love to see an extension on line 4 Eastbound. Having to be crammed into an 85 bus is just ridiculous. Plus if it connects to Line 2 that'd even be better.
AYOOOO SAME AREA ANF NEIGHBOURHOOD!!!!
I have been a proponent of the SESE for a long time - I don’t agree with Reece's proposed alignment though - My suggestion is that the line be extended east and interline north and south at McCowan and Sheppard with a future extension of Line 2 into Markham ON
I think that the Yonge subway extension makes sense because it removes the awkward station wait period for viva blue. It will be a substantially smoother transfer. I get Steeles though.
I agree about Yonge, but more because of the strategic need for a direct connection to Highway 7 in general and Viva on it in particular. The point about quality of service in York is fair, but ultimately it IS the infrastructure we have, will be the closest thing to a development spine York is getting and also enable a link to whatever 407 rapid transit we end up with (even if it stays mixed traffic coaches it is, in my view, a very important regional linkage).
@@Bureaucromancer Definitely, but I also think Go infrastructure is not often thought about enough (oddly). For example, the Barrie line had it's concord station cancelled which would have been it's 407 as well as VIVA link. Langstaff Go is right in the area of Richmond Hill. They could definitely improve that interchange and service. Everyone has their own use-case, but I think if the GO system gets to it's 30 min or 15 min frequency within the GTA, I think a lot of the perceived need for subways will diminish. Not that I'm complaining. I think the subway to VMC for example is fine. It was going to be extended all the way to York you and the 407, it would have been silly not to extend it to VMC at that point. It's just if the GO train gets to its 15-30 minute service, it will be just as quick if not quicker than a subway to get places. I know myself, the only reason I use VMC subway is when the Go train is not running or it's hourly schedule severely limits my schedule.
Just to clarify as well, I don't think there's anything 'wrong' with different lines serving the same purpose. I actually think it's good as it provides redundancy and options. If the subway is closed, you can take the GO and vice versa. Short trip, take the subway. Long trip, take the Go. Yet, I don't think government like this. When I queried about the Concord Go, it was stated that it would take ridership away from VMC subway. That might be true, but making numbers look good is not a reason not to build something that would be a great network node.
@@Wofly-me3pq Until some form of 407 transitwat is built I don't think Concord GO makes sense. Its in the middle of nowhere and and you'd need to build dedicated bus infrastructure to get GO there.
@@Wofly-me3pq The Concord cancellation was utter madness, that I have to imagine will be reversed sooner than later.
@nickssaa Dedicated bus infrastructure yes, but not a full 407 Transitway build-out. Even the EA talks about potential to implement key stations and useful bus ramps independently from the full corridor, and I can't emphasize enough how valuable I think that would be. Quite frankly I think the way to dot he 407 corridor is incremental improvements, rail ready where it's not mixed traffic, with the explicit idea that it's not likely we will ever actually operate in a fully built busway configuration, but go to rail as the last gaps in the actual separated right of way are closed.
Also remember that Concord would serve Hwy 7 Viva as well as 407 buses, so this is not ONLY about GO to GO connections.
@@Wofly-me3pq "I don't think there's anything 'wrong' with different lines serving the same purpose" "it provides redundancy and options" - Exactly!!!
First time commenting just to support more Canadian transit planning videos.
Thanks Quinn!
Would love to see a dream-build video for Toronto transit. If you had carte blanche and there were no previously existing transit-ways, subways etc. in Toronto, what would you do?
Very nicely done and more practical than many fantasy maps I have seen.
Thanks! I tried to be realistic with it!
The Honorable Mr. Reece Ford, great visionary from Ontario.
Better than Rob amiright? I’m not going to mention Doug...
I know this is very two years ago but for what it's worth, the King/Queen corridor is absolutely crying out for a subway. It has been for decades and I feel many cities would have identified that. The density is there, from the Beaches to Parkdale. Only a couple of others even mention this
Great video, love your stuff! One thing I would change is to extend line 2 (or maybe line 5) to University of Toronto Scarborough. Its one of the fastest growing schools in Toronto and has absolutely horrible connectivity. I have to take a bus and switch at Guildwood Go, Kenendy, or Scarborough Town to get downtown, and that trip is decently long. It feels like if you don't have a car, UTSC is the most inaccessible out of all the post-secondary institutions.
It's a reasonable suggestion instead of Malvern for sure!
The city's plan is to extend Line 5 to UTSC which I agree with - They should start on it now as far as I'm concerned
@@RMTransit No both. First, I have both the SRT/Line B (for Bloor-Danf) station and Line S station elevated. Line S would be along the current SRT alignment. Line B would be about 70m south of it. Line S would follow Progress to Centennial to Malvern. Line B would follow current SRT route to Highland Creek to Centennial to UTSC. There are 2 sort of interchange stations but no revenue track connection.
Someone else mentioned a no-budget version of this video, but I'm also interested. What would you do if you had a clean slate in Toronto. We still had all the streets in roughly the same alighmments, same neighborhoods, same everything, just no TTC or GO. How different would the subway map look?
I'm a Torontonian and have lived downtown for the past 30 years. I can't imagine what all those folks from the outer suburbs must deal with in their daily commute, whether it's to get downtown, or travel downtown to transfer to a line going out in another direction, where they work! Some days it feels like everyone in the GTA is standing on the same subway platform as I am.
The way transit in this city is laid out, you might just as well say you can't get there from here. What I see is successive governments coming to power (ahem!), erasing what transit was planned, against the advice of the transit authorities and urban planners that they paid to create a cohesive system -and replacing it with what the current power brokers would like to see. That includes much of what you have discussed it this video.
I applaud your efforts in trying to pull all these loose ends together, but I suspect that we won't see much positive change until this governmental meddling in planning and concepts, clearly beyond their understanding, has somehow been controlled.
i would rather do the approach by having a station within 800m-1km of every residential zone
I agree, we need more stops - The stops on the Eglinton Crosstown are an average of 900 metres apart - Not everyone can walk half that far, or even close to it
I did the same thing as you did but in my hometown of Edmonton!
Since Adam Giambrone left the TTC I've felt that it and the Metrolinx planning table. You make some very good points on useful project changes and or addons. If it can be done , space allowing, HK style cross platform line changes, drastically decrease travel time and frustrations, and are a safer less disruptive option than signals to merger "heavy"/active trains.
In addition adding on smart stopping and gate systems on the platforms increase safety and cuing for trains, further reducing stress of traveling on mass rail.
Also: powerline utility workers have already been seen at the 404 and Sheppard working on the grid required for the Sheppard extension (east) project.
I'd love to see the same video but for GO's network!
The problem with elevated track is the elevated section has a shorter life expectancy and becomes more costly long term.
the Shepard line projects i agree makes a lot of sense and would be really useful
Line 1 to Malvern is interesting think i like it slightly better then the Crosstown east extension probably good to put a station at Centennial College
Sheppard and Neilson as well as Malvern after STC
I recently caught myself watching your transit videos for hours, so informative for the future. I don't have a mobile phone but if I did I'd probably watch your videos on the bus and subway for hours too since I haven't renewed my license and take transit exclusively. Instead I just look out the window at the trees in Scarborough when I'm on line 2, and on the bus routes too. Good wishes, I can tell you more than love reporting on transit around the World. I certainly love the videos you do on the Toronto/Ontario transit.
I wonder whether ordinary citizens of Toronto would share your enthusiasm for elevated structures -even though they are much cheaper than tunnels. Elevated lines are visually very intrusive. and there may also be worries about noise in residential areas. On a more positive note, I would strongly agree with your emphasis on providing good transit links to Universities.
Who cares if you transporting masses from A to B look at Chicago and NY. They still using them
@@williamerazo3921 You miss my point. Everyone will agree that existing elevated lines are great for transporting masses of people. What people will object to (on noise and aesthetic grounds) is the building of new elevated railways,
@@Fan652w True and rumor is the mayor of NYC knew elevated lines would be an eyesore so he made sure they would be mostly buried in Manhattan
Doing the work to connect Sheppard should be done before the Richmond hill ext in my opinion... Having a rail route from vmc to Scarborough would be a relief off line 1 as well, don't stop the Ontario line at eg for another 20 years keep it going up to Don mills and line 5 and line 6 should meet at the airport transit hub a station with 4 or more platforms. The TTC is gonna have to invest in connecting missing links in it's system
I agree with you on connecting Line 5 with Line 6 - I would extend Line 6 all the way to Pearson Airport, connect it to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, and have the trains run all the way through to Kennedy, (i.e. the beginnings of an LRT beltline running around the entire city)
Richmond Hill extension is key bro. That's where the BRT starts. If you end it on Steeles theres quite a few kilometers of Yonge without rapid transit.
All hail Supreme Leader Reese, King of Transit
Please make this a series!
Will do!
I have seen many of your videos about the TTC transit system and the videos your in I am very impressed with your TTC transit videos and your amazing knowledge about making the TTC transit system way more efficient with subway extension lines and your other impressive transit videos about other transit systems in other cities in Canada and around the world !
One more suggestion would be to extend the Ontario line north so it meets the Sheppard line at Don Mills
I love your ideas! The one thing I would add is to take the Finch LRT to the airport, but that is more $$$
Taking it to Woodbine gives us a lot of the benefit which is why I chose that!
@@RMTransit Can the UP Express stop at the new Woodbine Station?
The proposed tunnel section on the Mississauga Transitway at Hurontario and Rathburn cannot be built because of the underground storm water siphon of Cooksville Creek located there. This is what the engineers advised me when I queried about driving the Hurontario LRT underground in that area at a PIC back in late June 2012 and subsequently. Like most engineering question marks, it can be done but the cost is prohibitive.
I think we could find a way ;)
@@RMTransit We might, but I fear the anti-tax crowd would get in the way.
great video, here are some comments!
-The Sheppard West extension has to pass under a deep valley so a tunnel would be very expensive. My idea is turn south, go elevated down Yonge, provide a station at Avondale for the condos there, then use the 401 ROW until you hit Wilson and continue along elevated until Wilson station.
-Extending Sheppard East should just take it elevated all the way to Malvern, no need for Line 2 to go all that way too. Instead I would consider extending Line 2 north of Sheppard/McCowan to some of the dense developments up there such as the Woodside redevelopment planned.
-Surprised you didn't mention an Ontario Line extension! I would run it elevated on Don Mills to Sheppard (Fairview Mall) and then use the 404 ROW to get north to the massive employment zone in Markham at Hwy 7/Leslie. This also helps remove the need for the Yonge North extension which I agree makes sense to just go to Steeles. Furthermore, a western elevated OL extension along the Queensway would be my choice, as there is massive development happening there and no transit planned (Humber Bay will be in walking distance and have the future Park Lawn GO).
-The Eglinton West extension to Mississauga is probably something that will be needed far down the road but for now I think that improved BRT service in the transitway can more than handle demand. I would cut this.
-The Finch line should definitely be extended down to Woodbine GO, but I disagree about the eastern extension to Downsview. It's very costly for what can be done by travelling one stop south on Line 1.
A Sheppard West extension would very likely cross the Don River at Earl Bales via portals and a bridge rather than a tunnel, similar to the Ontario Line plans. The tunnel is already shallow at Yonge.
@@simoneh4732 So a bridge and portals similar to that of line 2 crossing Don Valley between Castle Frank and Broadview stations? That'd be nice too.
Thanks for the comment! I'd have Sheppard cross the ravine via bridge rather than tunnel. For Finch West, the extension to Downsview would mostly be surface level in existing row, so should be fairly cheap!
I still think joining line2 and line4 at Sheppard/McCowan to create another U line would be best and avoids a transfer like you’ve previously complained about ;)
Agreed on interlining Sheppard to Vaughan. Being able to get a one seat ride from VCC to STC or even down to the beaches would be amazing.
I want all of this, but with some small, non subway additions that will make the network truly shine. Firstly I'd love streetcar extensions that would integrate the St. Claire streetcar line into the rest of the network, create more dedicated tramways, and create more car-free corridors downtown. Secondly, I’d love more BRT lines outside of Old Toronto to fill in the gaps between subway lines. Toronto already has great bus service with 5-10 minute frequency, but it’s much slower than it could be due to needlessly tight stop spacing and a lack of bus lanes on congested corridors. It wouldn’t have to be elaborately overbuilt for the service it offers, like the Viva transitway, but just have better spacing and dedicated lanes where needed or available like Vancouver’s Rapid Bus.
Surely, if you were supreme leader of the Province of Ontario (or something along those lines), York Regional Transit would either be made to run decent bus services connecting to the subway or replaced with an all-in-one GTA/GTHA public transport authority that would? Therefore the argument against the full Richmond Hill Centre extension is removed.
Agreed and I think the urban area of York and Peel region should be merged into Toronto altogether.
"Toronto" should refer to the GTHA. Politically it may not be a good idea, but in terms of planning it seems like half the job just to talk about City of Toronto.
@@fehzorz I agree (although I can`t comment informedly of whether or not it is good politics, as I am not well enough informed on that matter). Using Toronto to refer to the GTA would align with ordinary practice in most of Australia (except possibly Queensland), where it is ordinary to refer to whole metro areas by just the city name. In mainland states (other than Queensland) city councils are smaller than Old Toronto is as a proportion of the population of the metro area. Except in Queensland, local government doesn`t run ordinary public transport buses, states do. Local government in Australia also doesn`t run schools or police, states do.
@@T0000000000001 I'm Australian too.
Canada is a mixed bag. "Halifax" includes a huge rural area, Winnipeg is about right, while Toronto and Vancouver have many "cities" in the metro areas with their own identities.
In the US there is a lot more of people not thinking of suburbs as part of the city they surround than Canada. I think Australia might be on its own, and even now "Western Sydney" is almost its own identity separate from Sydney.
I am an Australian who lived in Toronto - Sheppard/Victoria Park - from 1970 to 1975. My old 1970 road map shows that there was no development north of Finch and since Toronto extended to Steeles, the TTC could provide an excellent service for the whole of the Toronto area, which it did. However, Toronto has now sprawled way past Steeles into other regions and this seems to be the main cause of many problems; namely trying to interface transport between the various regions.
Surely it is time for the Province to take control of transit in the GTA. Surely the size of the GTA demands one authority who can look at the “big picture” and provide a properly thought out integrated system. If the Province did assume full control, would that suddenly unleash more money to accelerate the backlog of projects?
Its a good question, I think from my experience in Vancouver which has a unified system, we could probably see better overall service, but it would likely be at the expense of the core.
The province has taken control; it's just that they're not doing the best job of it
Hope this is a running series across all cities across the world, not just Canada! I’ve been doing this for London since I was about 4 or 5, would love for you to do it and compare what I’ve thought of!
As a Mississauga resident, love the idea you have for the Line 5 connectivity (as well for keeping the grade separation consistent)
If they had the money, they should have done a Finch-Sheppard subway (Line 6, down the YSSE to Finch West and east along Sheppard). Agree that Yonge extension should've stopped at Steeles.
Here here! This is a great plan.
The lack of connectivity - between GO and TTC - is something that I think is under emphasized so it’s good to see you highlight the Agincourt and Downsview Park transfer points. These could be really key in stitching together the whole system (along with Kennedy, Bloor, Lansdowne, and other transfer points) particularly if there is a 1-fare integration for Toronto. Having to pay an extra $5 to hop on a GO can be a disincentive to folks, as opposed to waiting for the free subway they already paid for.
I definitely concur on a Line 1 extension stopping at Steeles. It makes no sense to extend to RH. Rather, finding a way to introduce frequent service on the RH Line would instead be a way better service likely to draw in RH transit users. And that would also enhance more connections by adding a 6th (7th if Milton is a Go) true RER Line.
Better connections between YRT and GO could make up some of the gaps that would result from not bringing the subway to RHC, such as the Unionville GO/VIVA Purple Stop which is a fairly long unpleasant walk at the moment. Improved GO service on the Richmond Hill Line would really help too. I have taken VIVA Purple/Blue then the Yonge Subway to Union Station before and not once did taking the GO train even cross my mind. That would manage a good number of trips the RH Extension would be used for. Extending non-rush hour service on that GO line would also be great for the crowds you see on the subway when there's a Leafs or Jays game.
I'd like to see what you'd do in Melbourne Australia for 50 billion instead of suburban rail loop.
Oh my, lots of ideas . . .
These are great and creative suggestions, Reece. When you take politics out of transit planning, there are workable solutions. Toronto should create a position called Transit Czar!
I hope you do this for Vancouver too. Great video.
I agree on the sheppard extensions to scarborough and sheppard west
Ending it at Steeles is the same problem as ending it at Finch. It's parochialism. The Bloor line should have been out at Square One 40 years ago. The subway finally, FINALLY left Toronto out to other places whose taxes have been paying for it since the 1950s, but Yonge, really, is the line that SHOULD have been extended. The entire backbone of York is up Yonge and the people we could get out of cars would be phenomenal. Transit line location is a matter of engineering the city you want to have in 30 years, not dealing with the one that started being built 30 years ago. It's about shaping the future. If you build it, they will come. When I moved to North York in 2000, all I heard about was what a useless white elephant the Sheppard line was. I live in that neighbourhood, and I've seen the transformation of Sheppard east from Yonge in those 20 years since it opened and the astonishing verticality that's evolved and continues to accelerate. Ending Yonge at Finch in 1974 was a huge mistake, and stopping it at Steeles is just wasting billions to compound it. Build the damn thing to Richmond Hill at least. Let's get it up to at least Hwy 7, if not Major Mack, and really get a hundred thousand people out of their cars. If York doesn't step up (which is you convicting them before they commit the crime, by the way), well, that's on them; but you're kind of putting the cart before the horse in dumping on them when THERE'S NO SUBWAY YET FOR THEM TO BUILD LINES TO.
Sheapperd West and Sheppard East are both planned with Metrolinx as a prerequisite to construction of the Yonge North expansion. As well a station in the Distillery District is currently being discussed within the TTC in order to boost movement to the east side of Downtown
....how far you've come Reece. You're becoming quite the man...😁😁
0:18 Ontario Supreme leader Reece confirmed 🤣🤣🤣
I wonder how the Discord will react to this
Reece the Global Benevolent Dictator for Life has already happened.
Two way all day service on the Richmond Hill line to anywhere beyond Langstaff would alleviate the crowding on the Yonge line
Unfortunately, that service is unlikely to arrive and it wouldn't relieve the congestion which mostly exists to the south of the southernmost RH line station.
How about this:- a proper Queen St subway running between Long Branch and West Hill via Lakeshore Blvd West, The Queensway, Queen St W & E, and Kingston Rd with stations every ~600m to 700m. The stations would be built cut-and-cover with otherwise mostly tunneled construction between Roncesvalles and Birchmount, elevated on the Queensway, and cut-and-cover tunnel on Lakeshore and Kingston Rd. Each station would have plenty of elevators on each side so that if one shaft is down for maintenance then the other shaft would provide a back-up plus public washrooms in each station and enough security features to exclude the vagrants. This new subway would also be designed to accommodate future easterly and westerly extensions to Oshawa and Clarkson plus there would turnback tracks at least every ~5 km and each station would have platform screen doors as in Singapore with adequate heating and air conditioning in each station at platform level. Dream, dream, dream!
It's a shame that the TTC line 2 extension plans are way different than yours
Hey Bro, love the content and your expertise. One piece of advice though...think about a vacation in the Caribbean, a little sunshine does us all well....:)
Your ears must be ringing. I was just telling my husband last night that maybe it'd be fun for us (your fans and yourself) to form a task force to come up with our best transit vision then make it into a petition or something.
Count me in
Love your plans but and I'd hope you see this as logical an ontario line extension from science center straight north to shepard line 4 just give line four another key connection and a major union shepard north sound connection.
Just checked that corridor and my proposal would for the extension adding two stations one at Lawrence modifying part of the existing Donaway shopping complex to a station and at York Mills using a large parking lot as the station location. Before linking at Don Mills with 4
Lots of great ideas. I particularly like your suggestion to add the Cherry St. stop and properly connect the Sheppard stump line on both ends like in the original plans (what's there now is so ridiculously embarrassing). Not keen on elevating some trains though. Too much visual clutter that would feel intrusive and divisive, like how the Gardiner feels for many.
Elevated guideways for trains can be both lower and much smaller than the Gardiner, and I think Vancouver has already shown that they can be built without negatively impacting the visual atmosphere
For the Yonge subway extension, they are thinking of people in Richmond Hill working downtown but GO trains would be better for that. Taking a subway for more than 10 stops gets tedious. For those who don't believe me, try taking the subway from Kennedy to Kipling
would love to see a video like this about go transit
Love some of these ideas, particularly in Etobicoke, but I do agree with others below the cost estimate for Sheppard W is way too low for going under the Don River.
Putting some of these into reality though, I think you would have a really tough time convincing a lot of the public of using elevated guideways this much, even if they are more aesthetically pleasing than past versions and cheaper than tunneling. People have bitter tastes over the SRT and lots of people are digging in against the elevates OL, Davenport Diamond, original plans for Eglinton W, etc...
Re interlining, I don't see a reason Line 2 should be the one going all the way to Malvern; it'll be a long enough line to STC and if issues at one end occur, it could bring down more of the network, even with short-turns.
I am surprised that both OL up Don Mills or Line 5 East aren't mentioned here.
I would have Sheppard go over rather than under the Don!
Re. Extending Finch LRT SE to Downsview Park Go Station. Honestly this is where the Bolton Line is needed and needs to use the kitchener sub, and not the Barrie Sub. A Bolton line could connect to the Finch LRT and a westward extension of the Sheppard subway line and be a massive improvement for Northwest Toronto
Bruh our preferred plans are soooooooo similar. Even the Finch West extension to downsview park. Wow
Non-Toronto native here. a 40km commuter line from Bolton in the north-west running through Humbermede, then into Toronto along the existing freight rail corridor, would give better access to rail for more Toronto suburbs. It would also link to Line 6 and Line 5 on the subway system. Could be run with diesel railcars initially to build patronage for later electrification.
It's been considered, it is a freight line though so we will have to see if it ever happens! (If demand outweighs the institutional capacity to negotiate this stuff)
I really love this video! Hearing your opinion is like a very well educated Fantasy Subway map and I would love to see more cities like this. Especially cities with new or not currently existing projects like Ottawa, Kitchener, Hamilton, Guelph, Kingston Ect. Love hearing the opinion of someone who knows a lot on this topic.
For the Barrie line you could also add stations at Landsdowne and future Fairbanks Station and act as express line for north and south transit west of dufferin
Another benefit to your suggestion of branching the Line 4 into Line 1 is that these trains would run through Finch West station, connecting with Line 6, so that people travelling E-W across the north end can make one connection instead of 2.
My own ideas:
1. Line 2, extend to the zoo in the east and Sherway Gardens in the west
2. Branch the Ontario Line at Spadina, continue along Queen the up to Roncesvalles -> Dundas West -> the Junction -> Weston -> Rexdale.
3. Make all streetcar connections with the subway tunneled into the station similar to Spadina and St. Clair West
And I have to say, considering how long you've lived here, your knowledge of Toronto is very impressive.
I'm 100% with you on the sheppard line extensions, the line 2 using line 3 already existing path and the egl crosstown west to the miss. transit way. I think extending eglinton line 5 east to Eglinton GO would be a valuable connection as well as extending line 2 west to at the very least Sherway Gardens. And maybe down the road consider extending the ontario line north along don mills north to don mills station meeting up with line 4 as it is pretty densely populated street.
With an aging population, many stations along Yonge line are sorely lacking escalators. Take Rosedale or Summerhill station for example. Old people can't handle the stairs as easily, especially if they go shopping. Failing to retrofit escalator in tight staircase space, at least build strips of incline surface along the stairs to drag up/down shopping carts with wheels. Do you have any creative ideas for TTC?
I love the thumbnail! Very emperory
I would add the caveat of if the sheppard line extension ends up greatly reducing the Finch bus levels, then stop it at Downsview. If ridership remains similar to current levels (50k Finch West, 20+ Finch East, 35k express) then build out a LRT all the way. And eventually Steeles.
Reece, your a big fan of loops. Why not look turning the U into a weird oval at Sheppard and make the existing other extensions as branches. I would think that you would then be able to fit more trains in the loop.
Also, in connection with my last suggestion. The Ontario Line could continue north from Sherway mall to the Humber College/Finch Line.
A comment on Line 1 extension: I agree with not extending the Yonge portion of Line 1 into York. Line 1 is already one of the busiest subway lines in North America. Because of the commuter parking at Finch, the train is absolutely sardine packed by the time it leaves the terminal station southbound and it only gets even more packed as you go south. The west side of Line 1 is much less congested during rush hour, and so it can handle the capacity from extending into York.
Also, we need a whole new north-south line. The Ontario Line should extend all the way up Don Mills, meeting the Sheppard line at Fairview, and continuing into the suburbs. For the Ontario Line, I would also drop Moss Park and Riverside/Leslieville stations. That area of the city is served by streetcar lines at Queen, Gerrard, and King. Having subway stations on the east side of downtown is not the best utilization of the money.
Last, the Sheppard Line would be what I extend to the Airport in the west, and to UTSC in the east. The Sheppard line is so underutilized that it can take the capacity from the Airport. Passengers can then transfer to downtown on Line 1 at Sheppard West.
Maybe I would also extend Kipling to Sherway gardens
Elevating the entire western end of Crosstown through central Etobicoke would offend the scruples of too many upper middle class types there and Rob Ford sold off too much of the required land along the corridor to developer friends in a misguided attempt (ostensible or otherwise) to increase potential demand and therefore justify the western extension in the first place.
I live there. Ppl along Eglinton here are not rich... mostly full of low income to low middle class people. The main reason why is because the city sold off the property they allocated for the richview expressway so they just don't have much space to work with.
@@soso-zz9qf Good point, sorry about that, I should have been clearer. I was referring to the enclaves of folks who live in the vast acreages a few hundred meters away from Eglinton; especially to the south and beyond down toward Bloor. These major transit corridors, such as the Crosstown, in most North American cities have to be fed by surface routes and are not built simply to provide for folks living right on the line.
As we both stated in our original posts, the land that would have otherwise been there to provide the necessary width for surface running on a dedicated right of way while still accommodating the current roadway was sold off. Now, instead, Etobicoke gets a much more expensive underground LRT in an area where they had the land available to do a surface route with a dedicated right-of-way.
@@stephenjones8928 I fully agree with you. I went to school and grew up in the area, but knowing the types who live in princess Ann out to James garden I doubt they'd be taking transit or even concerned about Eglinton. It's already seen as a massive blight and mostly just ignored from my anecdotal experience.
As it stands the people most benefiting from the LRT are the high density corridors from Scarlett to Martin Grove then secondly those along the east mall, and along the west mall. I'm sure there's more density too I missed but that's just what I know the best.
The 112 (runs along the west mall) already terminates at renforth and I'm sure they'll route the 111 (runs along the east mall) and 46 (runs along Lloyd manor) to Martin Grove. Really wouldn't make any sense any other way.
I think it's extremely backwards their justification for having it underground and now they cut a bunch of stations that would've been useful.
Eglinton west of Scarlett (especially west of Kipling!) is a huge pedestrian unfriendly stroad with little good development going on or planned. An elevated line with redevelopment of the road would've been really great in my area.
But hey glass half full right? My area is finally getting good transit and we won't have to be completely reliant on cars. Many low income people finally be able to easily access midtown without a car. Unsatisfactory progress is still progress!
@@soso-zz9qf Yes, the folks right on the line do benefit most but the north-south feeders will be required to put bums in seats to help justify the cost. The link to Pearson, the Mississauga Transitway at Renforth Gateway and the UP/GO station in Mount Dennis will help in this regard for this west end extension of the Crosstown. My high school was York Memo at Keele and Eglinton (the one that burnt and whose students were temporarily moved to Scarlett Heights CI) but I also lived at Scarlett and Eglinton for years. Now I am in Mississauga not far from Eglinton, so I know the road well!
But I agree with you in that transit is not just about moving loads of people but moving them quickly over long distances as this well help get them out of their cars and onto transit. Back in the day, the TTC was excellent and, so, I didn't start driving until my late 30's. But increasing congestion and tax cuts have changed the equation. We have lost time and will pay even more now instead. Here's to the future though; cheers!
Some of your plans I agree with.
But I think the Yonge line should be extended as far as it needs to be along with an EXPRESS line digging under the existing Line 1 serving popular stops such as Steeles Sheppard Eglinton Bloor Queen Union. I think this service should cost $1 to $2 more on top of whatever the regular fare is as it will get you to these stops much quicker. I highly doubt I'll be alive when this happens or ever happens.
Now we need a politician to stand up and be counted. Hmmm, I see no hands. That's the problem. Sorry Reece. I do not see Metrolinx in the room either...darn. At least not yet. Great video. Cheers.
Having grown up in Willowdale, I am intimately familiar with north central Toronto. Sheppard West bus service is frequent, but its not fun. Crowding is the rule, and it takes a LONG TIME to get between the Spadina and Yong lines. Just keep extending the subway west until it reaches Downsview station, take a breather, and then turn the attention elsewhere. Ending the line at Steeles? Maybe the money would be spent better elsewhere. I do know that buses along that stretch up to the Langstaff terminal at Highways 7 and 407 are very busy, so who knows. I also think at some point Sheppard east needs to be connected to Scarborough. Don Mills station is a very important station, but only half as important as it might be if it were connected in more than one direction. Again, there's some suburbia to traverse to get to the important hubs. Then again, I could see myself saying the same thing about stretches of the Bloor line forty years ago.
One thing I've noticed is that like the movie Field of Dreams, "if you build it they will come". I mean that sometimes stations that didn't seem particularly importand at the time seem to suddenly having developments blow-up around them, incresing population density to a point where the station is suddenly woth the effort. Why did North York Centre need to be built? Well, I'm sure a lot of people are glad it did. And the land around both the Bayview and Don Mills stations on Sheppard east have exploded vertically in recent years. You know which areas around stations haven't seen much growth? The ones that aren't zoned for anything but low-density detached single-family dwellings. Zoning bylaws in too many places still think it's the 50s or 60s, and this has to change or TO will end up having no middle class.
I believe your title would be "Transit Czar" 😉
The Finch West LRT connection to Downsview is interesting... I've sometimes had the idea to connect the Sheppard West extension to Downsview as well and Sheppard West, those two can kind of work together I guess
I remember you had something similar a long time ago to this.
Love this video! LOL Ideal imaginations but realistic hehe
The line 6 will connect to the airport same as line 5. It is part of the redevelopment of GTAA airport for better connectivity
Everytime I think of the tunnelled Line 5 extension into Etobikoke or the tunnelled Line 2 extension into Scarborough, I metaphorically cry. We'd be able to get so much more rapid transit if our politicians weren't so fixated on tunnels.
What does he mean by “the Spanish way” what’s different between Canada and Spain with regard to transportation infrastructure costs?
Spain spends way less than us for a lot more infrastructure
Probably how construction bidding, speed, time, budgeting is different dependent on the location. The efficiency of spending X amount of dollars /km of similar past projects in each city/country would help get an accurate price per each location. What these differences are, sorry don't know them but he was alluding to that, just like how there's a difference between Toronto and Montreal transit spending process.
i think North Yonge could use the express/local train, it doesn’t have to be quad-track all the way, it could quad-track at selected busier stations (let’s say Steeles), so it can go from Hwy 7 all the way to Steeles.
I got this idea from Taoyuan Airport MRT
York Region could be pressured into providing the extension, if you only aloud the subway extension to start if they agree to provide the bus service.
Could you make a Top5/top10 video of North American cities with greatest need for public transit?
I nominate you for supreme leader. Great ideas!
I think it's a mistake to limit your fictional budget to the actual budget, as policy and the will to publicly finance infrastructure project is one of the most important criteria on the quality of a public transit.
Meh. I see a purpose in doing it both ways. Frankly this video seems to be more about pointing out adjustments to what is already on the books than a true dream project list. Given that I'd think a follow-up outlining a next round of projects would be better than cramming everything into a single video.
Agreed, but given how bad transit is in the other growing cities of Ontario, increasing the budget for GTA transit would prove difficult.
@@zezemorgan Oshawa and Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge are the 2 fastest growing, and GTA enough that they should be part of an integrated plan.
Extending on Yong will probably kill Blue, the only line of viva with good enough frequency. Orange and purple are both half dead during non-rush hours
Very insightful!! Thanks reece!
My pleasure!