Hey Youthman.. Just like to say a HUGE Thanks for your Demo of how to use REW.. I just received my MiniDSP UMIK-1 Microphone... and Thanks to you.. I measured My Room Today.. and was able to see what my Anti-Mode was correcting in my Room.. what I found was the Anti-mode was a little aggressive with its correcting to be honnest.. So then I measured without the Anti-mode.. and was able to FIX all my Peeks manually using the SVS- App for My SVS PC-4000's ( Two ) with AWESOME Results... If it wasn't for YOU I really dont't think I would have tried REW.. So Mannnn... You Have My RESPECT... I Salute You... :-)
I think you should’ve done the “sub crawl”. Place the sub in your seating position (or in front of your center seat) and face it towards the screen. Then play a steady bass beat as you crawl around the room to find where you feel the most bass. That’s where you should place the sub then try it facing inward and facing towards the screen to see which way it measures the best from the main seating position.
Unfortunately those sub offers are way too big to put in my seat. And as you can see from the video if you put it in front of the seats they could drastically change the frequency response so it’s not an accurate representation of what the frequency response is in my primary listening position
Sub crawl isn't needed with REW and a microphone. It's OK for someone without calibration gear but it's still not the sweet spot like most people think.
I have never done the sub crawl myself but feel it would be very subjective because if you play a clip from a movie, those frequencies are changing. If you play a single frequency, you might get great response for that frequency but have a major dip in another. I would think using REW and the UMIK-1 would be much more accurate.
Good job at explaining Rew, I was scared to mess with it but now after watching your video I might dive into it now that you explain it very well. I will jump onto Avs and get some help from them guys as well. Keep up the great work 👌
Also, it seems like both subs are pretty even. I assumed the SVS would have a flatter response. That bad dip on your measurements means you have a bad null (or dead spot) where the sub is. There’s 3 things that can help.. Move the sub a little or try turning it, adjust the distance in the AVR as that helps with delay, or add a second sub which helps even out those peaks and dips.
The great thing I love about this community is we can all learn together and benefit from each other’s knowledge and experiences. Thank you for being a part of the youth man crew
Great video youthman! I'm green on REW as well but has been very helpful for me to get my subs in better position. I'd love to upgrade to one of those PSAs one day. Keep putting out great content. Happy Thanksgiving!
Great vid! If you were able to, a Part 3 would be great where you explain which position was best and why. And, it would be great if you could then watch some videos, compare the subs in that prime position and let us know which sub performed best :)
Love the intro! LOL! Happy Thanksgiving Bro! As you probably know, more than likely you won't be able to fix those "dips" with DSP, but you can cut the the peaks! REW and the testing graphs are great, but the ultimate test is your ears. I figured that when I tested my room with multiple changes in sub direction and made a few changes with the DSP in the iNuke amps.
Great videos Youth Man Mike my lights tend to get deleted I love how you show how the subwoofers compared to other brands keep up the good work thank you
Hello Youthman, Great video. Thanks. I just got the same testing equipment you used and have been reading about how to use it. But Have been hesitant. But your video really demonstrated how to go about it. I'm going to give it a try. Thanks again.
Thanks Tom. I know the feeling. I bought my UMIK-1 and sat on it for 6 months before diving into REW. I didn’t want others to feel intimidated as I was so I made the tutorial. I still have a lot to learn and will be sure to share when I do.
Great video. I glad to see a real informative video on subs. All I have seen lately is some DUDE showing a SVS sub with the excursion. WOW. Keep up the hard work to give us great info. Have a great Turkey day.
Thanks. I’m glad you are finding value in the content. I want my channel to be fun, informative as well as educational. Thanks for being part of the incredible Youthman Crew!
Haha both my hard drives are full (need to swap my 1TB drives for the pair of 4TB drives I just bought. Because of the lack of space, I have deleted a lot of footage from previous videos but I will have plenty more until first of the year. Might be a fun video to make though. Thanks for the suggestion
Guilty as charged on the excursion thing hahahah. Youth man has reinvigorated my interest in REW. I measured my PB 4000 with it before but never did anything. Might get the gear out soon and measure mine and see if I can get better performance from it.
Great work Youthman! I’m running 2 SB 16ultras and always wanted to know if I was getting the best response I could get. After watching you run through the set up I’m ready to give it a shot. I’ll be picking up the microphone off your link. Thanks
Well I got my microphone today and use your video and ran the set up. I ended up having to move my subs 1 foot away from the wall and it made a huge difference on my graphs than I used the svs app and adjusted the ex and it got even better. It made a huge difference. Thanks for the help! You spend $4000.00 on subs you should go the extra mile and adjust them .
Great video Youthman! It would have been great to see those measurement graphics from your own subs, measured behind that big screen, located where they usually are = Please, measure your home theater as you normally use it?
Of course I will measure them behind my screen but moving a 175 and 149 lb sub by myself is a LOT easier to do when it's on the floor than it is behind my screen. That requires the help of a second person. I just had my son help me move the PSA S3611 behind my screen. I want to measure it, then watch a movie with it to see how it performs in my normal listening position, then swap it back with the PB16 and measure just a single PB16 to see how they compare in that location.
That was great video. I do also have REW and UMIK-1 when I was dialing in my PSA V1801 sub. It really is an eye opening experience. While you have noticed the sub location matters a lot, the same goes for the mic location. If you are looking at dialing in the system to your room with multiple seats you should also try changing the mic locations to different seats. Also you started your sweeps at 5Hz but only show the plots starting at 15Hz. The strength of the sealed S3611 is the ultralow frequencies. We already see hints of the SVS to start rolling off at 20Hz while PSA stays flat. Last, on this frequency range and these measurement volume levels I'm not expecting to see much difference between these two subs. To truly compare the two capabilities you should do compression sweeps where you increase volume by ~5dB steps and see when the subs frequency response plots starts to compress (volume stops increasing). At the same time you can look at the THD numbers.
Thanks. Steve Smith in the Home Theater Enthusiasts Facebook Group suggested the same thing to do a Slug Fest to see which has more output. Definitely want to give it a try
Agreed. Also the onboard dsp's for the Pb16's can help adjust the dips and peaks and you can set them yourself. I haven't had any experience with the PSA onboard dsp, so i cant say how that works.
Hi! It would have been nice to know what you did on the SR8012 concerning Audessey Settings. If you ran the measurements with your regular configuration (frequency response correction, distances, etc.) active for the dual PB16 behind the screen setup it would be somewhat pointless.
i like subwoofer that go deep, did not expect the PSA to go flat to 10hz, impressive. im sure you can set the PSA to have less bass lower down(room size knob?) and then it can play really loud. sealed boxes are my favorite, endless low end and clean output, some dsp needed tho. and bigger woofers to compensate for lack of port, but box can be same size so sealed wins every time.
Not necessarily the PSA that goes flat to 10hz - well, not on its own. The room does help A LOT with it. Maybe even cheaper subs will go down to 10 Hz in that particular room.
Hey Youthman! Great videos! I was wondering about the overall extension in your room of these subwoofers? I would expect the PSA to be superior in this regard due to its sealed enclosure. Thank you!
Hi Eric, I'm impressed with both subs and am working on one final comparison. Here is the latest measurement comparison between the two subs - youthmanreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/SVS-PB16-vs-Power-Sound-Audio-S3611-REW-Max-Output.jpg. Does that look like what you had expected?
It does! I’d love to see how low that PSA goes. Their website indicates in-room extension down to 7 Hz. That definitely in the “feel it” without hearing it zone! Thanks again!
What's up youthman? 👍on video! I always wanted to see a walkthrough on doing this. So thank you for posting. Are you going to run rew again with your 2 pb16 ultra subs that you have behind your screen? Also are you going to get a mini dsp to fix any issues with the subs if you run the rew again? Since that is your main subwoofer position. By the way you could of fooled me about never using that program before. You did a good job with it. Keep up the good work. Happy thanksgiving to you and your family!
Thanks Bobby. Unfortunately there is t a lot of videos on using REW so hopefully it will be helpful to others as well. Yes now that I can run a basic test, I am curious how the Dual PB16 perform behind my screen. Honestly I’m scared to see as I may find it’s the worst place haha
Need to test behind the screen with pb16 , plus adjust your peq setting to correct dips and peaks. But also look at your audyssey Multi EQ app to help adjust your curve too. But what setting did you run the pb16 in standard, extend ,sealed. Music or movie or custom preset. As the pb16 has so many different ways to compare. And all the variables would give you different results.
@@Youthman well in my room with the sb4000 I only had sealed option, but the music preset gave best response with out custom tune. I'm going to a member house Fri to help setup and calibrate his pb4000
Also, to make adjustments to your speakers and subs, you would turn to the AVR itself? Then run a sweep again? Do you have the AVR set to multi Chanel stereo for the test? Thanks bud👍🏻👍🏻
Once you have measured, don’t you manually adjust speakers delay? Or speaker levels....? Or sub levels and so on?...in hope to achieve a smoother arc on the graph?
Thanks. I’m pretty new to taking room measurements myself and have a lot to learn. I used a free software called REW with a UMIK-1 microphone to test the frequency response of the subs
Great video! They seem to be similar performers for those locations. I’m curious: you had ur dual 16s behind ur screen. Is that the best location for subs in your room? Did u do the sub crawl to determine the best position? I haven’t messed with REW in a while. I just did the sub crawl and put the sub where it sounded best. Do you have a mini dsp? I know the Pb 16 have one built in. Did u ever use it, or will you use it now that you can see the response? I’d be curious to know if the position you would use based on the sub crawl would change once you run REW. It might just sound better in a particular frequency range where ur playing the demo material to do the sub crawl with, but overall it might not be the best spot. Might have to get REW up and running again. Ignorance is bliss though haha you can go nuts with this....
From what I can see so far, the S3611 has more output in the 20Hz and below. The PB16 has more output in the 20-30Hz range. The next test I want to do is to find each of their max outputs before distortion. The extra $400 is going towards a nicer finish, app control, built in PEQ etc.
That’s odd. Don’t you have the 16 in extended mode or all ports open? I’d expect in extended mode for the 16 to have more output around its port tuning. That interesting if that’s not the case. Again, could be location in the room but we’re only at the mercy of where we’re comfortable leaving these big boxes in our rooms so the few locations we do have might not be ideal.
Those are all great questions. Not sure I have a definitive answer. Keep in mind we are comparing Dual 18’s to a single 15.5” sub. The reason for comparing is they are only $400 difference in price.
Wow the SVS PB16 ultra, says it goes down to 13hz, but it starts dropping after 19hz, in all 4 positions. While he PSA sub is flat till 10hz. Damn i wish you had some DIY dayton 18s for comparison.
I do have a PB16U and 2 Mini Marty UM18's. I have done some REW with them (just finished building them), so far the PB16U out performs BOTH of the UM18's. I am going to do some more with placement and settings, but so far the PB16U is king. The UM18's SHOULD out perform the PB16, so I will try my best to get them running at optimal performance, then compare them again. I may have to start a channel to put the video up.
Hey youthman, great vid. Aren’t you supposed to run audsy as well tho? Xt32 dsps the sub to flatten the response I think. Maybe try it in one position for comparison first.
I wasn’t sure what to do with Audyssey. I certainly didn’t want to rerun Audyssey for all 11 channels just to swap out the sub. Maybe it would be best to turn Audyssey off before measuring. Again...I’m not sure what is the best method of comparing two subs. I have a lot to learn but am having fun in the process
@@Youthman you will want and need to turn off Audyssey and dynamic EQ and dynamic volume. Set all your speakers to large. And raise the crossover of the subwoofer to its maximum in the avr. Then it will be just the sub you are measuring. Oh and don't forget to set your subs levels correctly (and maybe check it again in each position) before you run the measurement sweeps.
@@MidnightMagic I'm confused on how raising the xover to say 120Hz in the AVR and setting the Mains to Large is going to make it to where only the sub is being tested.
@@Youthman if you have the sub xover at the 120hz you will see it start to dip/xover around the 120hz. So you are not measuring the "full range" of the sub. If that makes sense. And with setting the speakers to large that is mainly for testing the speakers because same thing if you have a xover on then it will stay to drop off after the xover frequency So in the speaker settings in your avr. Go to your subwoofer setting and make the "lpf/lfe" crossover to maximum. (On my Marantz I can set it to 250hz) and make sure the crossover dial on the sub amp is set to its bypass or maximum setting as well.
I can tell you a bit. The sudden dips are from complete cancellation of the sound wave and when they dip down like that, you will not hear that in music or movies. Often that small dip is only a few hz. The ones that are gradual, that occupy many frequencies are the ones that you will hear and the sub and/or your seating position need to be moved to clean it up. Often it will take you 5-10 different places in your room, measured with REW, to get a smooth response (coupled with a room acoustic software like Audyssey). Rememer, Audyssey isnt magic and your initial placement is most crucial
Nice that you're getting into measuring your room. However, you can't come close to accurately calibrating the bass response of your listening area or finding optimal subwoofer location(s) by measuring a single point in space. You need to measure all of your seated locations where you care about bass performance. In order to get better seat to seat consistency, you also need to employ multiple subwoofers. You can't do it with one sub unless you use a lot of big bulky bass traps strategically placed in the room. You cannot compare frequency response of two different subs by in-room measurements even if you attempt to place both subs in the same position. Those 2 subs load into the room differently due to driver and port positional differences and different sizes of the box. This is why outdoor groundplane or 4pi measurements are essential when objectively comparing subwoofer performance. Happy Thanksgiving.
Thanks Gene. I certainly appreciate the feedback. I just dipped my big toe into the waters of REW so I know I have a lot to learn, especially from those like yourself that have extensive knowledge and experience in measuring audio gear. I realize each sub is completely different (15.5” vs Dual 18’s, sealed vs ported) but the purpose of this video was not to calibrate the sub but to see how each of these subs measures in various locations in my room. I saw first hand from these tests how much Speaker placement can greatly impact the performance of a sub. I have Dual PB16’s in my setup and had requested Dual S3611 subs to review but Tom was only able to send one so I’m working with what I have and as I learn, I desire to share that with my audience. Hope you and your family have a Happy Thanksgiving. Would love to come by sometime and hang out or do a collab.
@@Youthman Understood my friend. Speaker/seat placement is considered positional EQ. You will see when you get multi-sub dialed in, the positional changes won't be as dramatic at low frequencies. This quick video may provide you some useful calibration tips as well: ruclips.net/video/mvaUr0EA3DA/видео.html Yes I can see us doing some collaboration in the very near future. Perhaps a Q&A process on room calibration where you ask questions and we go over the how-to together. Also, I have a ton of AV cables and accessories I need to clear out of my storage that you are welcome to. Let's chat via email. Have a great day tomorrow.
@@MidnightMagic awesome! I just pulled up REW and noticed there is a scroll bar and the graph was set to show 15Hz. Thx for the tip! I'll change the limits, save each image and re-upload them to my website. I'll make a short video explaining how to change the limits and point people to the new graphs on my website since I can't change the actual video once it is uploaded.
It seems that each sub could benefit theoretically from a differing room position, or is the best place for one, the best place for all? I notice on the SVS app, you can increase or decrease each frequency on the SVS sub to make it flat. Do these adjustment work to flatten out the response? Does the 3611 have this adjustment, or does it rely on the receiver for this task? It seems that with adjustment both of these would be amazingly flat.
From what I see, some locations are similar while others have varied response. I don’t believe there is a best location regardless of what sub you put there but I’m only guessing. Yes the SVS App has a built in a PEQ (Parametric EQ) that allows you the ability to adjust the trouble areas to help fix the problem areas. You can adjust up to three frequencies. The S3611 does not have a PEQ but that’s what a MiniDSP is for.
Thank you for showing me how to measure this! Just ordered my own UMIC to eliminate any nulls. Didn't understand what a problem this was until now. FLATNESS here come!
After watching this video I am leaning more toward the PSA sub rather than the SVS SB16. They cost about the same but I think the PSA may out perform the SB 16 ( although the test compares the louder PB16 I think this would be a fair assumption)
Hi youthman Thanks for the comparison, I think it would be better to compare the ULTRA SVS 16 to the PSA V1811, when will we see an overview of the PSA V1811?
I asked my audience which PSA sub they wanted me to review and there were twice as many votes for the S3611 compared to the V3611 so that’s what I requested to review. My guess is most people do not want a tall subwoofer in their living room
I’m sorry, I was thinking you were asking about the V3611 (ported Version of the S3611). The S3611 is still comparable as it is within $400 of the PB16.
Hello youthman! Looking at the frequency response graphs for the s3611, it seems like there was a consistent dip from 70hz all the way to around 120hz no matter what room position. Where as the svs did not have such a drastic dip in midbass. I wonder if this is the subs native response (since the huge dip was consistent in diff locations) or there is something else in play. Did you measure the subs by themselves or were the other speakers in your system on when doing these measurements? Thanks!
You may want to run rew again with your mains disabled. If the sub is not properly integrated with mains (via audyssey or other room correction software) prior to running the sweeps, you will get an inaccurate measurement. The dip from 70 hz and up may be due to your mains not being properly integrated to the sub and there is cancellation (phase issues) happening in the crossover region. This will give you a better idea of the subs frequency response in your room in the upper bass frequencies.
Thanks Derek. Can you disable the mains within REW? The only way I know how would be to unplug them from the receiver as I don't believe you can disable your mains from the receiver.
Set avr on stereo 2 channel. Unplug the 2 front main speaker from the amp terminal (not on speaker terminal ) set the avr crossover at highest setting to avoid sub being sloped off at 80hz. Make sure sub crossover is on bypass. Note though this is for the sake of this particular experiment only as you are trying to see sub only freq response in your room. Now as you go further through this journey you will add the second sub. You will quickly discover that finding s place for the second sub will be a lot tougher. Its hard to make 2 subs play nice together due to freq cancellations. I have found that asymmetric placements work better rather than symmetric dual corner configurations.
Hi Derek, a friend of mine and I unplugged the two front main channels from the back of the receiver and re-ran REW and we had the same response with and without the mains playing.
hey youthman what do u think of the klipsch 10sw subwoofers..?..i can get new for 299.99$ canadian plus tax..im looking at getting a pair of them if they are good......or the 12sw sub for 399.99$ each...great video i have never used rew yet..
Hi John. I have not heard the SW Series. If you are using it for movies, I personally would opt for the 12". I went from a 10" to a 15" and every since, I have always had 15's. They just produce a lot more output.
What your video demonstrates is that a single sub, no matter how high performance, will not typically provide good bass response over a number of seating positions. As has been shown time and time again you are better off splitting your sub budget to buy at least two lesser subs to smooth out response. AKA Harmon and Dr. Sean Olive.
Hi youthman im curious to know if you intend to place your pb 16 in its original position behind the screen run the new software and then try using the svs app to see if you can smooth out the graph and once again run the software on your computer to see if its made a difference if any to the graph by the way i like the videos your putting out full of helpful tips and knowledge thank you in advance.
Thanks Alex. Yes I first want to see how one S3611 performs behind my screen and then swap it out for one PB16 to see how it performs as this is where I would like to keep my subs as I really don’t have room for two subs out in my room.
Depends on what matters to you most. Will be doing one final REW comparison in the next video. PSA digs much deeper below 20Hz. PB16 has more output between say 30Hz and 40Hz. PB16 looks nicer and has SVS App and PEQ. PSA is cheaper. Which is "Better" is subjective and is dependent upon what features or performance factors are important to you.
@@Youthman I think bang for your buck that PSA S3611 is pretty amazing. I bought a SVS SB16 about 8 months ago and although it's a nice sub, because of the size of my room (5800 cubic ft) I was pretty underwhelmed. My wife will not let me even consider the PB 16 because how deep it is. I was going to order a second SB16 when I saw your comparison of the SVS & PSA. Even though the PSA is nearly the same size it can sit sideways firing left and right and not stick out past my tv stand. I was thinking about getting one of those and selling my SB 16. I showed my wife though and she says it is too ugly so I ended up ordering another SB16 after all. I read a review where they had demoed both the PB16 and PSA S3611 and they said the PSA had amazing wall shaking output but they thought the PB 16 was better detailed quality sound.
These grahs almost portray what should be expected. The SVS, despite its smaller driver, has a port, and may create more bass SPL from 20 to 30 hz, but down low it will lose out to the sealed every time. Above the 30 hz, the PSA will destroy the SVS. I know the graphs dont really show it properly and the design of the test really isnt done that accurately (a different topic) but it would prob take 2-2.5 of those SVS to catch the PSA above 40 hz or so. The PSA diver is lighter and much more efficient and that is what it takes to make bass in the higher frequencies.
Hi Dave, honestly, I'm debating whether or not I should be doing "measurement testing" as I realize the room plays an important role on how a speaker or subwoofer performs and it should be done on a Groundplane so that reflections cannot skew the results. As mentioned, I'm completely new to using REW but am intrigued at how I now can begin to actually see what is happening in my room as opposed to just relying on what my ears tell me. Here is the most recent REW Comparison I've run between the PB16 and S3611
@@Youthman I completely understand. REW can be a PITA but it seems that you have a good start of it. Id say that if you want to quantitatively express the abilities of each sub that you need to do whats called a compression test for both subs. Place the subs in the exact same location like you have been doing and then set each sub to max gain, room size large (basically max out each subs on the rear panel or app). Keep the AVR trim the same for both (something like -5 so you dont clip the sub amp). This is about the only way to ensure that you are getting max output from each sub, if not, its not apples to apples. Well, it really isnt now, but I know that the comparison is still very relevant and FUN to do. Anyways, then, run a compression sweep 10-150 hz or so) on the PSA (or SVS, whichever is first) and keep increasing the volume by 3 decibels every sweep on the AVR volume knob. You will notice that each line will increase by exactly 3 db each time. Once you run into a spot where the sweeps no longer show a 3 db gain, then you have run into compression and the sub is out of headroom. Be careful though, once you see compression, especially low frequencies, be quick to change the sweep level to start at a higher frequency or you will risk damaging your sub. For example, if you see compression at 15 hz at 100 db, then maybe make your next sweet 18 hz to 150. Rinse and repeat until you find the subs limits (find compression). Do the exact same thing for the SVS sub and compare the results for each. That will give your subscribers a real idea of what each sub is capable of. Just my 2c :)
Also, If you decide to do this, I would use the spot (loc 1?) where the freq was the most consistent. Also, make sure Dynamic EQ is turned off (unless you use that daily, then if so, keep it on)
@@davecharles6286 thank you for the detailed explanation. My fear is the "Be Careful Though" part as I do not want to damage my PB16 or the S3611 that I'm reviewing. I might just leave those types of MAX Testing to the "Experts". LOL. I have already started a similar test but was increasing by 1dB and just waiting to see when there was a significant change in the curve. These subs are too expensive for me to blow just for the sake of testing.
You need to do a sub crawl to find the optimum position for the subs first. This is kinda cheating both subs with respect to their in room performance. The dips are most likely room modes that are occurring naturally in the room. You definitely need to invest in a mini-dsp. You and I have about the same room dimensions I’m only a foot deeper but same width. As I’ve said before you really need to find a way to with squeeze them on the floor behind the screen or try placing them in the back of the room. But the sub crawl will give you the most accurate result utilizing the unit-1 and rew.
CJ, how exactly am I going to fit a 175lb SVS sub in my primary listening position, not to mention that the PSA has dual opposing 18's so one would be firing directly into the seat back. I just received a reply from MiniDSP. They are sending me the 2x4HD for review. Besides, the sub crawl is only good for 1 sub. Once you add a 2nd sub, they begin to interact with each other. There is ZERO room in the back of the room. I "might" could squeeze the PB16's in the front corners of my room under the screen on the floor but the only way would be to have them both facing each other since the PB16 is too deep to have them facing towards the seats.
@@Youthman Concrete still carry vibration. Decoupling/Isolating the Subwoofer from the floor only have positive sides :). Placing the subw. to close to a wall also make rattle. Must add, that i have never used the REW, just know any rattle/noice other than what comes from the subw. or speakers them self is not good for messuring/kalibrating/correction. Maby some less gain/volum can help REW ? That PSA seams to have a werry nice curve. Have you tested it behind the screen ?
Learn something new everyday. Might have to invest in some isolation pads. I do plan on trying the S3611 behind my screen but want to do most of the testing on the floor as it is easier to move around by myself if it’s on the floor
Unless they are the subwoofers of similar design you cannot place each in the exact same spot and expect for the measurements to be fair or accurate. The PSA is a dual 18 inch driver sealed subwoofer and the SVS PB-16 is a single 16 inch driver ported subwoofer. Each subwoofer will have their own optimal spot in the room.This is why testing by professionals is done either in a anechoic chamber or outside way above the ground where there are no reflections to get the true response. This shootout is useless.
@@Youthman I never built one before either mate. its very easy though. All it is is a box screwed together. your local timber merchant will also cut the wood to size so all you have to do is screw it together. Use good quality screws as they will vibrate out. i had 2x pb 13s. what i have now is crazy and is also very musical too. Im 3k rms per side continous and my subs can handle uptp 8k. and because its sealed ypur getting very tight excellent quality bass with no comprimises. of course you need a dsp. But a antimode v2 is vastly superior to the svs eq anyway. svs lacks mid bass punch. 30 to 40 hz is garb. my subs literally shack your face in a big room. You will need to spend decent money on a amp though. 3k or more for true specs. but if u like hifi music and movies without comprimise diy ftw. Theres currently nothing that you can buy off the shelf that sounds half as good as what i have trust me.
@@Youthman Hi, i rounded off all pf the edges with a router (cant spell that lol) and primered them, I just havent been able to paint them yet (too lazy). Sink the screws into the wood and filler them to get a smooth finish. At the end of the day i see a black box to be a black box if u get me but there are loads of diy forums where people have veneered them etc with amazing results. Its worth looking into the worlds your oyster. You could even look at using 21s or even 32s lol!
Two different type subs measured from the same spot can vary in different places but from what i see in the lower audible frequencies the pb 16 is louder remember we cant hear pass 20 hertz
In Position 1, the S3611 had much more output below 16Hz, the PB16 had more output from around 17Hz to 28Hz and the S3611 has more output from 28Hz - 52Hz.
@@Youthman In fairness I've mostly just read about it on AVS Forum but have used it myself. I guess R-E-W is simple enough I've never even thought of trying to shorten it.
@@Youthman What's your opinion on S3611 vs SB16? I'd like to try the SB16's. I had an SB13 before and thought it was awesome, most detailed bass that I've heard to date. I have a wife and family now and I'd like to go back to sealed, I don't listen at or near reference anymore like I did when I was single.
The SB13 wouldn’t be able to hang with the S3611. A 12.5” vs dual 18’s? No contest. The S3611 and PB16 are decently similar but the S3611 kills it from 10-20Hz. It would take 4-5 PB16’s to equal the output of the S3611 at 10Hz.
@Youthman To learn how to integrate a subwoofer with your speakers correctly you really should spend some time and read through this link. It will have everything you need to know to get the job done. www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2566897-compilation-multiple-sub-setup-info.html#/topics/2566897
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Hey Youthman..
Just like to say a HUGE Thanks for your Demo of how to use REW.. I just received my MiniDSP UMIK-1 Microphone... and Thanks to you.. I measured My Room Today.. and was able to see what my Anti-Mode was correcting in my Room.. what I found was the Anti-mode was a little aggressive with its correcting to be honnest.. So then I measured without the Anti-mode.. and was able to FIX all my Peeks manually using the SVS- App for My SVS PC-4000's ( Two ) with AWESOME Results... If it wasn't for YOU I really dont't think I would have tried REW.. So Mannnn... You Have My RESPECT... I Salute You... :-)
Thank you for the kind words. Glad the video was such a great help to you and your setup.
@@Youthman
:-)))))) ... Keep the Videos Coming..! :-))))))) Edited...
Will do but why the sad faces?
@@Youthman
SORRY.. Its supposed to be SMILEY FACES... my bad.. :-))))))
Haha it’s cool. I was just confused 😂
I think you should’ve done the “sub crawl”. Place the sub in your seating position (or in front of your center seat) and face it towards the screen. Then play a steady bass beat as you crawl around the room to find where you feel the most bass. That’s where you should place the sub then try it facing inward and facing towards the screen to see which way it measures the best from the main seating position.
Unfortunately those sub offers are way too big to put in my seat. And as you can see from the video if you put it in front of the seats they could drastically change the frequency response so it’s not an accurate representation of what the frequency response is in my primary listening position
Sub crawl isn't needed with REW and a microphone. It's OK for someone without calibration gear but it's still not the sweet spot like most people think.
I have never done the sub crawl myself but feel it would be very subjective because if you play a clip from a movie, those frequencies are changing. If you play a single frequency, you might get great response for that frequency but have a major dip in another. I would think using REW and the UMIK-1 would be much more accurate.
Youthman But it’s good as a starting point. It’s easier to put the sub in one spot and crawl around the room than to slide a sub all over the room!
Oh for sure! Moving 175lbs by yourself is quite the workout
Finally, never clicked on anything so fast, let me watch it now lol. Thank you
Audio Fun thanks! Haha
Good job at explaining Rew, I was scared to mess with it but now after watching your video I might dive into it now that you explain it very well. I will jump onto Avs and get some help from them guys as well. Keep up the great work 👌
Thanks Troy. I have a lot to learn but am exited to learn new things
@@Youthman What MV did you use on your receiver to run the test?
REW generates the frequency sweep to send to the receiver via HDMI
I can help you if you need
@@davecharles6286 Thanks Dave I will most certainly hit you up when I order my mic.
Also, it seems like both subs are pretty even. I assumed the SVS would have a flatter response. That bad dip on your measurements means you have a bad null (or dead spot) where the sub is. There’s 3 things that can help.. Move the sub a little or try turning it, adjust the distance in the AVR as that helps with delay, or add a second sub which helps even out those peaks and dips.
FalconsATL thanks for the tips Falcons
Youthman I’m still pretty new at this also! lol
The great thing I love about this community is we can all learn together and benefit from each other’s knowledge and experiences. Thank you for being a part of the youth man crew
Great video youthman! I'm green on REW as well but has been very helpful for me to get my subs in better position. I'd love to upgrade to one of those PSAs one day. Keep putting out great content. Happy Thanksgiving!
Thank you kindly. Happy Thanksgiving as well!
i love these video's they always make an entertaining watch, was the 16 ultra ran in 20hz or extended mode - or did i miss this?
Great vid! If you were able to, a Part 3 would be great where you explain which position was best and why. And, it would be great if you could then watch some videos, compare the subs in that prime position and let us know which sub performed best :)
Thank you. Unfortunately there will not be a part 3 because the unit was returned after the 90 day review period.
@@Youthman No worries, I figured I was a little late to this video but thanks for replying!
It’s all good. I always have new gear coming in
Love the intro! LOL! Happy Thanksgiving Bro! As you probably know, more than likely you won't be able to fix those "dips" with DSP, but you can cut the the peaks! REW and the testing graphs are great, but the ultimate test is your ears. I figured that when I tested my room with multiple changes in sub direction and made a few changes with the DSP in the iNuke amps.
SuperDave thanks Dave! Happy Thanksgiving to you as well. Yes you have shared with me before that it’s difficult to fix nulls with DSP.
Great videos Youth Man Mike my lights tend to get deleted I love how you show how the subwoofers compared to other brands keep up the good work thank you
Thanks Steve.
Youthman!!! thank you thank and Thank you. I will be doing this soon as I need to find the best placement. Merry Christmas!!!
Awesome. What subwoofers are you going to be comparing?
Youthman I'd use it more so for measuring my current sub and it's placement. Although, I'm in the market for dual subs, possibly ported this time. 🙂
Gotcha. Dual subs has many benefits
Hello Youthman,
Great video. Thanks.
I just got the same testing equipment you used and have been reading about how to use it. But Have been hesitant. But your video really demonstrated how to go about it. I'm going to give it a try. Thanks again.
Thanks Tom. I know the feeling. I bought my UMIK-1 and sat on it for 6 months before diving into REW. I didn’t want others to feel intimidated as I was so I made the tutorial. I still have a lot to learn and will be sure to share when I do.
Maybe besides FR you could test max output @10% THD for different frequencies like 15,20,25,... Hz
Great video. I glad to see a real informative video on subs. All I have seen lately is some DUDE showing a SVS sub with the excursion. WOW.
Keep up the hard work to give us great info. Have a great Turkey day.
Thanks. I’m glad you are finding value in the content. I want my channel to be fun, informative as well as educational. Thanks for being part of the incredible Youthman Crew!
Youthman Maybe if you have them , you could do a end of the year Blooper video? That would be great.
Haha both my hard drives are full (need to swap my 1TB drives for the pair of 4TB drives I just bought. Because of the lack of space, I have deleted a lot of footage from previous videos but I will have plenty more until first of the year. Might be a fun video to make though. Thanks for the suggestion
Guilty as charged on the excursion thing hahahah. Youth man has reinvigorated my interest in REW. I measured my PB 4000 with it before but never did anything. Might get the gear out soon and measure mine and see if I can get better performance from it.
Great work Youthman! I’m running 2 SB 16ultras and always wanted to know if I was getting the best response I could get. After watching you run through the set up I’m ready to give it a shot. I’ll be picking up the microphone off your link. Thanks
Thanks. I have a lot to learn with REW but I can already see some of its potential. I’ll likely buy a MiniDSP in the near future
Well I got my microphone today and use your video and ran the set up. I ended up having to move my subs 1 foot away from the wall and it made a huge difference on my graphs than I used the svs app and adjusted the ex and it got even better. It made a huge difference. Thanks for the help! You spend $4000.00 on subs you should go the extra mile and adjust them .
That’s great to hear! I’m grateful the videos have been helpful.
Great video Youthman! It would have been great to see those measurement graphics from your own subs, measured behind that big screen, located where they usually are = Please, measure your home theater as you normally use it?
Of course I will measure them behind my screen but moving a 175 and 149 lb sub by myself is a LOT easier to do when it's on the floor than it is behind my screen. That requires the help of a second person. I just had my son help me move the PSA S3611 behind my screen. I want to measure it, then watch a movie with it to see how it performs in my normal listening position, then swap it back with the PB16 and measure just a single PB16 to see how they compare in that location.
That was great video. I do also have REW and UMIK-1 when I was dialing in my PSA V1801 sub. It really is an eye opening experience.
While you have noticed the sub location matters a lot, the same goes for the mic location. If you are looking at dialing in the system to your room with multiple seats you should also try changing the mic locations to different seats.
Also you started your sweeps at 5Hz but only show the plots starting at 15Hz. The strength of the sealed S3611 is the ultralow frequencies. We already see hints of the SVS to start rolling off at 20Hz while PSA stays flat.
Last, on this frequency range and these measurement volume levels I'm not expecting to see much difference between these two subs. To truly compare the two capabilities you should do compression sweeps where you increase volume by ~5dB steps and see when the subs frequency response plots starts to compress (volume stops increasing). At the same time you can look at the THD numbers.
Thanks. Steve Smith in the Home Theater Enthusiasts Facebook Group suggested the same thing to do a Slug Fest to see which has more output. Definitely want to give it a try
Agreed. Also the onboard dsp's for the Pb16's can help adjust the dips and peaks and you can set them yourself. I haven't had any experience with the PSA onboard dsp, so i cant say how that works.
@@nikolasford2883 The PSA doesn't really have an onboard DSP.
Hi! It would have been nice to know what you did on the SR8012 concerning Audessey Settings. If you ran the measurements with your regular configuration (frequency response correction, distances, etc.) active for the dual PB16 behind the screen setup it would be somewhat pointless.
i like subwoofer that go deep, did not expect the PSA to go flat to 10hz, impressive. im sure you can set the PSA to have less bass lower down(room size knob?) and then it can play really loud.
sealed boxes are my favorite, endless low end and clean output, some dsp needed tho. and bigger woofers to compensate for lack of port, but box can be same size so sealed wins every time.
Thx for the info Sudd.
Not necessarily the PSA that goes flat to 10hz - well, not on its own. The room does help A LOT with it. Maybe even cheaper subs will go down to 10 Hz in that particular room.
I can tell you my previous Klipsch RSW15 would not come close to 10Hz and they were $1200 each.
Hey Youthman! Great videos! I was wondering about the overall extension in your room of these subwoofers? I would expect the PSA to be superior in this regard due to its sealed enclosure. Thank you!
Hi Eric, I'm impressed with both subs and am working on one final comparison. Here is the latest measurement comparison between the two subs - youthmanreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/SVS-PB16-vs-Power-Sound-Audio-S3611-REW-Max-Output.jpg. Does that look like what you had expected?
It does! I’d love to see how low that PSA goes. Their website indicates in-room extension down to 7 Hz. That definitely in the “feel it” without hearing it zone! Thanks again!
Well it’s flat down to 10Hz. That’s crazy!
Awesome vid my good sir! Now that's how you do a comparison test. Good info.
Love the live bloopers!!
Haha I was so tired but figured why not haha
In general, when can we get a review for the PSA V1811, a very interesting subwoofer.
Dang this gave me a notification to my phone and I didn't even have RUclips open lol. Awesome videos youthman
Haha nice. Thanks!
Nice. How old/new is your space? When did you build it and from where did you get your ideas? Thx.
We have lived here for 10 years. This is the 2nd revision of my front cabinet. Ideas came from my builder and I
What's up youthman? 👍on video! I always wanted to see a walkthrough on doing this. So thank you for posting. Are you going to run rew again with your 2 pb16 ultra subs that you have behind your screen? Also are you going to get a mini dsp to fix any issues with the subs if you run the rew again? Since that is your main subwoofer position. By the way you could of fooled me about never using that program before. You did a good job with it. Keep up the good work. Happy thanksgiving to you and your family!
Thanks Bobby. Unfortunately there is t a lot of videos on using REW so hopefully it will be helpful to others as well. Yes now that I can run a basic test, I am curious how the Dual PB16 perform behind my screen. Honestly I’m scared to see as I may find it’s the worst place haha
Have a great thanksgiving
Need to test behind the screen with pb16 , plus adjust your peq setting to correct dips and peaks. But also look at your audyssey Multi EQ app to help adjust your curve too.
But what setting did you run the pb16 in standard, extend ,sealed. Music or movie or custom preset.
As the pb16 has so many different ways to compare. And all the variables would give you different results.
Yes, lately I’ve been using Standard mode. Will be interested to see how they each compare
@@Youthman well in my room with the sb4000 I only had sealed option, but the music preset gave best response with out custom tune.
I'm going to a member house Fri to help setup and calibrate his pb4000
Also, to make adjustments to your speakers and subs, you would turn to the AVR itself? Then run a sweep again? Do you have the AVR set to multi Chanel stereo for the test? Thanks bud👍🏻👍🏻
What adjustments are you referring to?
I set it for 2ch Stereo for this test.
Once you have measured, don’t you manually adjust speakers delay? Or speaker levels....? Or sub levels and so on?...in hope to achieve a smoother arc on the graph?
So new to this. Did you have to disconnect other speakers to test the subs? Thank you for your great videos.
Thanks. I’m pretty new to taking room measurements myself and have a lot to learn. I used a free software called REW with a UMIK-1 microphone to test the frequency response of the subs
@@Youthman My microphone is coming today. Did you disconnect other speakers to test your subs. Thanks again. A very grateful subscriber :).
No, I did not disconnect my other speakers.
Great video! They seem to be similar performers for those locations. I’m curious: you had ur dual 16s behind ur screen. Is that the best location for subs in your room? Did u do the sub crawl to determine the best position? I haven’t messed with REW in a while. I just did the sub crawl and put the sub where it sounded best. Do you have a mini dsp? I know the Pb 16 have one built in. Did u ever use it, or will you use it now that you can see the response? I’d be curious to know if the position you would use based on the sub crawl would change once you run REW. It might just sound better in a particular frequency range where ur playing the demo material to do the sub crawl with, but overall it might not be the best spot. Might have to get REW up and running again. Ignorance is bliss though haha you can go nuts with this....
Quick follow up: if they are similar performers, what justification is there from a performance level to spend the extra $400 for the SVS?
From what I can see so far, the S3611 has more output in the 20Hz and below. The PB16 has more output in the 20-30Hz range. The next test I want to do is to find each of their max outputs before distortion.
The extra $400 is going towards a nicer finish, app control, built in PEQ etc.
That’s odd. Don’t you have the 16 in extended mode or all ports open? I’d expect in extended mode for the 16 to have more output around its port tuning. That interesting if that’s not the case. Again, could be location in the room but we’re only at the mercy of where we’re comfortable leaving these big boxes in our rooms so the few locations we do have might not be ideal.
OR the PSA is just a better performing sub out of the box. Can’t wait to se more...
Those are all great questions. Not sure I have a definitive answer. Keep in mind we are comparing Dual 18’s to a single 15.5” sub. The reason for comparing is they are only $400 difference in price.
I was happy to see you Set up REW in your computer.. . I would have also liked seeing your (Preference) Settings also ?
Thanks
Wow the SVS PB16 ultra, says it goes down to 13hz, but it starts dropping after 19hz, in all 4 positions.
While he PSA sub is flat till 10hz. Damn i wish you had some DIY dayton 18s for comparison.
Yeah it’s interesting that I can now measure to see what is actually going on. Looking forward to more videos with REW and learning more about it
I do have a PB16U and 2 Mini Marty UM18's. I have done some REW with them (just finished building them), so far the PB16U out performs BOTH of the UM18's. I am going to do some more with placement and settings, but so far the PB16U is king. The UM18's SHOULD out perform the PB16, so I will try my best to get them running at optimal performance, then compare them again. I may have to start a channel to put the video up.
Were the PB16s in regular (all ports open) or extended mode (with 1 port plugged)?
Hey youthman, great vid. Aren’t you supposed to run audsy as well tho? Xt32 dsps the sub to flatten the response I think. Maybe try it in one position for comparison first.
I wasn’t sure what to do with Audyssey. I certainly didn’t want to rerun Audyssey for all 11 channels just to swap out the sub. Maybe it would be best to turn Audyssey off before measuring. Again...I’m not sure what is the best method of comparing two subs. I have a lot to learn but am having fun in the process
@@Youthman you will want and need to turn off Audyssey and dynamic EQ and dynamic volume. Set all your speakers to large. And raise the crossover of the subwoofer to its maximum in the avr. Then it will be just the sub you are measuring.
Oh and don't forget to set your subs levels correctly (and maybe check it again in each position) before you run the measurement sweeps.
@@MidnightMagic I'm confused on how raising the xover to say 120Hz in the AVR and setting the Mains to Large is going to make it to where only the sub is being tested.
@@Youthman if you have the sub xover at the 120hz you will see it start to dip/xover around the 120hz. So you are not measuring the "full range" of the sub. If that makes sense.
And with setting the speakers to large that is mainly for testing the speakers because same thing if you have a xover on then it will stay to drop off after the xover frequency
So in the speaker settings in your avr. Go to your subwoofer setting and make the "lpf/lfe" crossover to maximum. (On my Marantz I can set it to 250hz) and make sure the crossover dial on the sub amp is set to its bypass or maximum setting as well.
@@Youthman give it a try. Wil take 2min of your time and you will see the difference. It's amazing just how powerful this sub actually is
You are crazy. You are amazing. The most accurate test, head to head. Go figure big brains. All the best.
Ok which am I? Crazy or Amazing? Haha. Glad you enjoyed the video Dimitris
@@Youthman you doin your thing my youth not spot on but you learning and we learning
Great video. I wonder what the differences are between the sudden dips and the gradual dips.
Tom not sure
I can tell you a bit. The sudden dips are from complete cancellation of the sound wave and when they dip down like that, you will not hear that in music or movies. Often that small dip is only a few hz. The ones that are gradual, that occupy many frequencies are the ones that you will hear and the sub and/or your seating position need to be moved to clean it up. Often it will take you 5-10 different places in your room, measured with REW, to get a smooth response (coupled with a room acoustic software like Audyssey). Rememer, Audyssey isnt magic and your initial placement is most crucial
Dave Charles thank you so much for the explanation.
Nice that you're getting into measuring your room. However, you can't come close to accurately calibrating the bass response of your listening area or finding optimal subwoofer location(s) by measuring a single point in space. You need to measure all of your seated locations where you care about bass performance. In order to get better seat to seat consistency, you also need to employ multiple subwoofers. You can't do it with one sub unless you use a lot of big bulky bass traps strategically placed in the room.
You cannot compare frequency response of two different subs by in-room measurements even if you attempt to place both subs in the same position. Those 2 subs load into the room differently due to driver and port positional differences and different sizes of the box. This is why outdoor groundplane or 4pi measurements are essential when objectively comparing subwoofer performance.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Correct i said it but not as good as you did also with less words
Thanks Gene. I certainly appreciate the feedback. I just dipped my big toe into the waters of REW so I know I have a lot to learn, especially from those like yourself that have extensive knowledge and experience in measuring audio gear.
I realize each sub is completely different (15.5” vs Dual 18’s, sealed vs ported) but the purpose of this video was not to calibrate the sub but to see how each of these subs measures in various locations in my room.
I saw first hand from these tests how much Speaker placement can greatly impact the performance of a sub.
I have Dual PB16’s in my setup and had requested Dual S3611 subs to review but Tom was only able to send one so I’m working with what I have and as I learn, I desire to share that with my audience.
Hope you and your family have a Happy Thanksgiving. Would love to come by sometime and hang out or do a collab.
@@Youthman Understood my friend. Speaker/seat placement is considered positional EQ. You will see when you get multi-sub dialed in, the positional changes won't be as dramatic at low frequencies. This quick video may provide you some useful calibration tips as well: ruclips.net/video/mvaUr0EA3DA/видео.html
Yes I can see us doing some collaboration in the very near future. Perhaps a Q&A process on room calibration where you ask questions and we go over the how-to together. Also, I have a ton of AV cables and accessories I need to clear out of my storage that you are welcome to. Let's chat via email. Have a great day tomorrow.
Great job! One recommendation: set the left side of the graph to 10hz instead of 15hz. The PSA should have considerably more output at that frequency.
I noticed that too. Why didn’t it show down to 10Hz where I set it? Will have to run another test to see if I can get the graph to show lower
Will likely do that when I do the Slug Fest between the two to determine which has the most output before distortion
@@Youthman up in the top corner you need to set the "graph limits" the usual frequency limits are 5hz to 200hz and the dB limits are 45dB to 105dB
@@MidnightMagic awesome! I just pulled up REW and noticed there is a scroll bar and the graph was set to show 15Hz. Thx for the tip! I'll change the limits, save each image and re-upload them to my website. I'll make a short video explaining how to change the limits and point people to the new graphs on my website since I can't change the actual video once it is uploaded.
@@Youthman dont worry about those lows you have no chance at hearing just see which is louder at 20 htz
It seems that each sub could benefit theoretically from a differing room position, or is the best place for one, the best place for all?
I notice on the SVS app, you can increase or decrease each frequency on the SVS sub to make it flat. Do these adjustment work to flatten out the response? Does the 3611 have this adjustment, or does it rely on the receiver for this task? It seems that with adjustment both of these would be amazingly flat.
From what I see, some locations are similar while others have varied response. I don’t believe there is a best location regardless of what sub you put there but I’m only guessing.
Yes the SVS App has a built in a PEQ (Parametric EQ) that allows you the ability to adjust the trouble areas to help fix the problem areas. You can adjust up to three frequencies. The S3611 does not have a PEQ but that’s what a MiniDSP is for.
Thank you for showing me how to measure this! Just ordered my own UMIC to eliminate any nulls. Didn't understand what a problem this was until now. FLATNESS here come!
After watching this video I am leaning more toward the PSA sub rather than the SVS SB16. They cost about the same but I think the PSA may out perform the SB 16 ( although the test compares the louder PB16 I think this would be a fair assumption)
The S3611 is a ridiculous sub. Certainly a ridiculous amount of output from 10Hz to 20Hz. I don’t think you can go wrong with either sub
Thanks for the reply and great review video!
Hey Youthman, In your receiver did you make sure the signal for REW test passes without equalization?
I'm not sure if I had Audyssey turned off in this video but I did have it turned off in the slug fest - ruclips.net/video/hESXuQ4K_Uc/видео.html
Hi youthman Thanks for the comparison, I think it would be better to compare the ULTRA SVS 16 to the PSA V1811, when will we see an overview of the PSA V1811?
I asked my audience which PSA sub they wanted me to review and there were twice as many votes for the S3611 compared to the V3611 so that’s what I requested to review. My guess is most people do not want a tall subwoofer in their living room
@@Youthman Model V-1811 is not high, it is important to review a subwoofer that includes a port.
I’m sorry, I was thinking you were asking about the V3611 (ported Version of the S3611).
The S3611 is still comparable as it is within $400 of the PB16.
Hello youthman! Looking at the frequency response graphs for the s3611, it seems like there was a consistent dip from 70hz all the way to around 120hz no matter what room position. Where as the svs did not have such a drastic dip in midbass. I wonder if this is the subs native response (since the huge dip was consistent in diff locations) or there is something else in play. Did you measure the subs by themselves or were the other speakers in your system on when doing these measurements? Thanks!
Hi Derek, as far as I know, REW is sending sound at least to the mains and the sub. Honestly, I'm not 100% certain.
You may want to run rew again with your mains disabled. If the sub is not properly integrated with mains (via audyssey or other room correction software) prior to running the sweeps, you will get an inaccurate measurement. The dip from 70 hz and up may be due to your mains not being properly integrated to the sub and there is cancellation (phase issues) happening in the crossover region. This will give you a better idea of the subs frequency response in your room in the upper bass frequencies.
Thanks Derek. Can you disable the mains within REW? The only way I know how would be to unplug them from the receiver as I don't believe you can disable your mains from the receiver.
Set avr on stereo 2 channel. Unplug the 2 front main speaker from the amp terminal (not on speaker terminal ) set the avr crossover at highest setting to avoid sub being sloped off at 80hz. Make sure sub crossover is on bypass. Note though this is for the sake of this particular experiment only as you are trying to see sub only freq response in your room. Now as you go further through this journey you will add the second sub. You will quickly discover that finding s place for the second sub will be a lot tougher. Its hard to make 2 subs play nice together due to freq cancellations. I have found that asymmetric placements work better rather than symmetric dual corner configurations.
Hi Derek, a friend of mine and I unplugged the two front main channels from the back of the receiver and re-ran REW and we had the same response with and without the mains playing.
I would love to see a comparison of the SVS PB-16 Ultra and the JL Audio Fathom F113v2.
It may happen one day.
Are there going to be anymore comparison videos on these two subs?
Carlos Castillo yes there will be
hey youthman what do u think of the klipsch 10sw subwoofers..?..i can get new for 299.99$ canadian plus tax..im looking at getting a pair of them if they are good......or the 12sw sub for 399.99$ each...great video i have never used rew yet..
Hi John. I have not heard the SW Series. If you are using it for movies, I personally would opt for the 12". I went from a 10" to a 15" and every since, I have always had 15's. They just produce a lot more output.
What your video demonstrates is that a single sub, no matter how high performance, will not typically provide good bass response over a number of seating positions. As has been shown time and time again you are better off splitting your sub budget to buy at least two lesser subs to smooth out response. AKA Harmon and Dr. Sean Olive.
Yes I use Dual subs in my setup and agree if you have more than one seating position, multiple subs are the way to go
Hi youthman im curious to know if you intend to place your pb 16 in its original position behind the screen run the new software and then try using the svs app to see if you can smooth out the graph and once again run the software on your computer to see if its made a difference if any to the graph by the way i like the videos your putting out full of helpful tips and knowledge thank you in advance.
Thanks Alex. Yes I first want to see how one S3611 performs behind my screen and then swap it out for one PB16 to see how it performs as this is where I would like to keep my subs as I really don’t have room for two subs out in my room.
@@Youthman I thought you probably would do this but i had to ask for my peace of mind keep up the great videos.
So the peaks and dips are the results of room acoustics and speaker placement. I wonder what the graph would look like in an open field (outside).
Not sure but I’ll save that test for someone else haha
It would look flat because outside is the best and only place to measure a sub's performance on all ends without room modes getting in the way.
I guess my thought is unless you plan on listening to it in a field, it’s more applicable to see how it performs in your own room
perphas u may try procella audio v21 (twin 21 inch subwoofers in a box)
Interesting
Nice I will try this soon.
pos its not what you think lmao good one.HAPPY THANKSGIVING
Great video, Youthman, thank you!
We Russians are also very fond of good subs! 😀
Oh yeah! Quality subs are universal.
Поддерживаю!!
О!
У вас какой саб?
интересно, сколько доставка в Россию будет стоить !?
Мне два PB-16 в 235 тыр каждый обошлись.
Официально почти 300 в РФ стоят.
How do you take multi channel messurements with windows 10? Mine only shows 2 channels
Unfortunately I haven't gotten that far. I'm just learning how to measure subwoofers. LOL
Are you going to do a video where you give your subjective opinions of how the subwoofers compare?
Oh of course. I have just had people in the past requesting some physical measurements other than just my opinion
Hi, pb 16 ultra vs pa tv 1812, which one is better?
I haven’t reviewed the TV 1812 So all I would be able to do is look at the specs to compare the two
@@Youthman ok, waiting for your opinion.
How can I give an opinion on some thing I have not reviewed? LOL
@@Youthman based on the specs? Compare to other subs that you reviewed?
So which one do you think is better? SVS PB16 Ultra or S3611?
Depends on what matters to you most. Will be doing one final REW comparison in the next video. PSA digs much deeper below 20Hz. PB16 has more output between say 30Hz and 40Hz. PB16 looks nicer and has SVS App and PEQ. PSA is cheaper. Which is "Better" is subjective and is dependent upon what features or performance factors are important to you.
@@Youthman I think bang for your buck that PSA S3611 is pretty amazing. I bought a SVS SB16 about 8 months ago and although it's a nice sub, because of the size of my room (5800 cubic ft) I was pretty underwhelmed. My wife will not let me even consider the PB 16 because how deep it is. I was going to order a second SB16 when I saw your comparison of the SVS & PSA. Even though the PSA is nearly the same size it can sit sideways firing left and right and not stick out past my tv stand. I was thinking about getting one of those and selling my SB 16. I showed my wife though and she says it is too ugly so I ended up ordering another SB16 after all. I read a review where they had demoed both the PB16 and PSA S3611 and they said the PSA had amazing wall shaking output but they thought the PB 16 was better detailed quality sound.
@@Youthman Which are you keeping for your home theater?
What volume did you keep your receiver on?
Believe it was at -10dB
Is there a recommended volume to use on the AVR? Surly you don’t have to crank it to reference to test?
You can test at whatever volume you want.
Youthman thanks man!
Glad to help
Much better
These grahs almost portray what should be expected. The SVS, despite its smaller driver, has a port, and may create more bass SPL from 20 to 30 hz, but down low it will lose out to the sealed every time. Above the 30 hz, the PSA will destroy the SVS. I know the graphs dont really show it properly and the design of the test really isnt done that accurately (a different topic) but it would prob take 2-2.5 of those SVS to catch the PSA above 40 hz or so. The PSA diver is lighter and much more efficient and that is what it takes to make bass in the higher frequencies.
Hi Dave, honestly, I'm debating whether or not I should be doing "measurement testing" as I realize the room plays an important role on how a speaker or subwoofer performs and it should be done on a Groundplane so that reflections cannot skew the results. As mentioned, I'm completely new to using REW but am intrigued at how I now can begin to actually see what is happening in my room as opposed to just relying on what my ears tell me.
Here is the most recent REW Comparison I've run between the PB16 and S3611
Forgot to include the link - youthmanreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/SVS-PB16-vs-Power-Sound-Audio-S3611-REW-Max-Output.jpg
@@Youthman I completely understand. REW can be a PITA but it seems that you have a good start of it. Id say that if you want to quantitatively express the abilities of each sub that you need to do whats called a compression test for both subs. Place the subs in the exact same location like you have been doing and then set each sub to max gain, room size large (basically max out each subs on the rear panel or app). Keep the AVR trim the same for both (something like -5 so you dont clip the sub amp). This is about the only way to ensure that you are getting max output from each sub, if not, its not apples to apples. Well, it really isnt now, but I know that the comparison is still very relevant and FUN to do. Anyways, then, run a compression sweep 10-150 hz or so) on the PSA (or SVS, whichever is first) and keep increasing the volume by 3 decibels every sweep on the AVR volume knob. You will notice that each line will increase by exactly 3 db each time. Once you run into a spot where the sweeps no longer show a 3 db gain, then you have run into compression and the sub is out of headroom. Be careful though, once you see compression, especially low frequencies, be quick to change the sweep level to start at a higher frequency or you will risk damaging your sub. For example, if you see compression at 15 hz at 100 db, then maybe make your next sweet 18 hz to 150. Rinse and repeat until you find the subs limits (find compression). Do the exact same thing for the SVS sub and compare the results for each. That will give your subscribers a real idea of what each sub is capable of. Just my 2c :)
Also, If you decide to do this, I would use the spot (loc 1?) where the freq was the most consistent. Also, make sure Dynamic EQ is turned off (unless you use that daily, then if so, keep it on)
@@davecharles6286 thank you for the detailed explanation. My fear is the "Be Careful Though" part as I do not want to damage my PB16 or the S3611 that I'm reviewing. I might just leave those types of MAX Testing to the "Experts". LOL. I have already started a similar test but was increasing by 1dB and just waiting to see when there was a significant change in the curve. These subs are too expensive for me to blow just for the sake of testing.
You need to do a sub crawl to find the optimum position for the subs first. This is kinda cheating both subs with respect to their in room performance. The dips are most likely room modes that are occurring naturally in the room. You definitely need to invest in a mini-dsp. You and I have about the same room dimensions I’m only a foot deeper but same width. As I’ve said before you really need to find a way to with squeeze them on the floor behind the screen or try placing them in the back of the room. But the sub crawl will give you the most accurate result utilizing the unit-1 and rew.
CJ, how exactly am I going to fit a 175lb SVS sub in my primary listening position, not to mention that the PSA has dual opposing 18's so one would be firing directly into the seat back. I just received a reply from MiniDSP. They are sending me the 2x4HD for review. Besides, the sub crawl is only good for 1 sub. Once you add a 2nd sub, they begin to interact with each other.
There is ZERO room in the back of the room. I "might" could squeeze the PB16's in the front corners of my room under the screen on the floor but the only way would be to have them both facing each other since the PB16 is too deep to have them facing towards the seats.
Very cool stuff.
Thanks!
Disconnect the subs from the floor. That was a lot of unwanted noice (rattle) from the room
I have concrete floors. I’m guessing it is due to pressurizing the room, not due to decoupling (but I could be wrong)
@@Youthman Concrete still carry vibration. Decoupling/Isolating the Subwoofer from the floor only have positive sides :). Placing the subw. to close to a wall also make rattle. Must add, that i have never used the REW, just know any rattle/noice other than what comes from the subw. or speakers them self is not good for messuring/kalibrating/correction. Maby some less gain/volum can help REW ? That PSA seams to have a werry nice curve. Have you tested it behind the screen ?
Learn something new everyday. Might have to invest in some isolation pads.
I do plan on trying the S3611 behind my screen but want to do most of the testing on the floor as it is easier to move around by myself if it’s on the floor
Unless they are the subwoofers of similar design you cannot place each in the exact same spot and expect for the measurements to be fair or accurate. The PSA is a dual 18 inch driver sealed subwoofer and the SVS PB-16 is a single 16 inch driver ported subwoofer. Each subwoofer will have their own optimal spot in the room.This is why testing by professionals is done either in a anechoic chamber or outside way above the ground where there are no reflections to get the true response. This shootout is useless.
Youthman ,those are not dips,they look like the Mariana Trench!
Haha or Grand Canyon
2 x diy sealed tc soulds ultra 5400,s here. Eats both them subs for breakfast on every frequency lol.
DIY is a great way to go if you have the skills, tools and want to devote the time to building it yourself. I would never be able to make one.
@@Youthman I never built one before either mate. its very easy though. All it is is a box screwed together. your local timber merchant will also cut the wood to size so all you have to do is screw it together. Use good quality screws as they will vibrate out. i had 2x pb 13s. what i have now is crazy and is also very musical too. Im 3k rms per side continous and my subs can handle uptp 8k. and because its sealed ypur getting very tight excellent quality bass with no comprimises. of course you need a dsp. But a antimode v2 is vastly superior to the svs eq anyway. svs lacks mid bass punch. 30 to 40 hz is garb. my subs literally shack your face in a big room. You will need to spend decent money on a amp though. 3k or more for true specs. but if u like hifi music and movies without comprimise diy ftw. Theres currently nothing that you can buy off the shelf that sounds half as good as what i have trust me.
btw if u check out my channel u will see lol
I believe you. Did you finish it to give it visual appeal or is it just a box?
@@Youthman Hi, i rounded off all pf the edges with a router (cant spell that lol) and primered them, I just havent been able to paint them yet (too lazy). Sink the screws into the wood and filler them to get a smooth finish. At the end of the day i see a black box to be a black box if u get me but there are loads of diy forums where people have veneered them etc with amazing results. Its worth looking into the worlds your oyster. You could even look at using 21s or even 32s lol!
Two different type subs measured from the same spot can vary in different places but from what i see in the lower audible frequencies the pb 16 is louder remember we cant hear pass 20 hertz
In Position 1, the S3611 had much more output below 16Hz, the PB16 had more output from around 17Hz to 28Hz and the S3611 has more output from 28Hz - 52Hz.
@@Youthman ok
I gotta get into rew question yourth man can i run Rew for 3 speakers at the same time my 2 fronts and sub for stereo?
Watching....let’s see which one he prefers
I’m curious to know as well
Stop talking just tested the subwoofer..it's take allot of time watching your talking..🥉
I realize my channel isn’t for everyone. My videos that have audio demos in them will have “Audio Demo” in the title. Best wishes
I also enjoy a good Roux
Ok?
@@Youthman I've never heard anyone refer to "REW" as "Roo". That's all. Bad Joke :)
Haha Gotcha. Well I’m very new to it so I phonetically pronounced it how it is spelled. Do most people call it Are-ee-double-you??
@@Youthman In fairness I've mostly just read about it on AVS Forum but have used it myself. I guess R-E-W is simple enough I've never even thought of trying to shorten it.
😁😁😁😉 happy Thanksgiving too me
Haha which one are you buying?
I had dual S3601's, wasn't really impressed with them.
Really? What didn’t you like about them? What did you upgrade to
@@Youthman They weren't very good for movies, I upgraded to dual PC-4000's and couldn't be happier.
Very cool. I loved the impact I got in my room from the S3611. Very impressive sub but I’m super happy with my Dual PB16’s
@@Youthman What's your opinion on S3611 vs SB16? I'd like to try the SB16's. I had an SB13 before and thought it was awesome, most detailed bass that I've heard to date. I have a wife and family now and I'd like to go back to sealed, I don't listen at or near reference anymore like I did when I was single.
The SB13 wouldn’t be able to hang with the S3611. A 12.5” vs dual 18’s? No contest. The S3611 and PB16 are decently similar but the S3611 kills it from 10-20Hz. It would take 4-5 PB16’s to equal the output of the S3611 at 10Hz.
@Youthman
To learn how to integrate a subwoofer with your speakers correctly you really should spend some time and read through this link. It will have everything you need to know to get the job done.
www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2566897-compilation-multiple-sub-setup-info.html#/topics/2566897
This just plays with soft ware...…….haven't you got ears ! !
I have both.